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#181 - Phoebe Morgan
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Publishing Director, editor and best-selling author, Phoebe Morgan joins us to chat all things publishing from both sides of the curtain!
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Transcript
Plot Holes vs Writing Quality
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? You can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that, and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of a gamble.
Guest Introduction: Phoebe Morgan
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to the Right and Wrong Podcast. Joining me today is a bestselling author and publishing director at Hodder & Stoughton, Phoebe Morgan. Hello. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much for coming on. um Lots to talk about. you do You've done lots of things in publishing, including writing. So let's start with your latest novel, The Trip, which is out right now.
Rebranding of Hodder & Stoughton
00:00:37
Speaker
Tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:38
Speaker
Sure, I will. I'm also impressed that you managed to pronounce Stoughton correctly because lots of people don't and we had a big rebrand at Hodder last year, I think, where we have have a new logo, which is actually a little s stoked, the animal, um because so many people could not get Stoughton's Downton correct. So thank you for the correct introduction. I actually looked that up and I was reading about the choice to make a stoat. yeah it was a It was a big deal. It comes from an old poem, um which is actually very cute. If you're a publishing nerd, which I am, then it's actually quite nice to know the history of the company, which is 150 years old. ah So that's where the name comes from, this old poem, which one of my colleagues found.
The Thriller: "The Trip"
00:01:19
Speaker
um Anyway, it's Dotan, my own writing. ah the then The latest book is called The Trip, yes. um And it is a thriller. It's set in Thailand in Bangkok and also in one of the little islands off the coast of Bangkok. And it's about four friends, two couples who go on what they think of the holiday of a lifetime, ah which turns out very much not to be when a stranger from their past appears and shatters their idea of paradise. ah So it's my fifth psychological thriller and it just came out in the UK back in May and it's out in the US in October. Amazing. And your, I was going to say your fifth novel, your first one came out in 2017.
Evolution into Psychological Thrillers
00:02:05
Speaker
Yes, correct. Psychological thrillers, what was it that that drew you to to writing that?
00:02:10
Speaker
So I read a lot in that area. And I also now publish a lot of authors in that area. So I'm very immersed in the genre as a whole. But when I actually first started writing my debut novel, it was a book called The Dollhouse and it wasn't really a psychological thriller. When I wrote it, it was more of a sort of book club novel about two sisters and the dollhouse that their father made for them when they were little, which is based on one that my dad made for me. And then when I sent it out to agents, I knew a lot less about publishing than I do now. And so I sent it out cold to lots of different agents and my agent Camilla, who signed me at Dolly Anderson,
00:02:51
Speaker
uh, gave me a little feedback and we worked together on the edits for about six months before, before I actually signed a contract with them. And she kind of helped me craft it into a thriller. And I think there was always the bones of a thriller there, but they were very much buried under the surface. Um, so I would say it kind of is down to her that I moved into that area. Um, and now I, I really love it. Like I, I do sometimes think about writing something different, but I, in general, I, I love the pace of thrillers and I love psychology and people. And then, you know, really most of those novels are about people in our minds and what makes us tick and the secrets and lies that people keep from each other. And I think that's a sort of endlessly fascinating subject. And so I'm, I'm glad to have been able to sort of lend my voice to, there's, there's a lot of voices in this space. I know that as a competitive area, but I think it's an area that readers will always want to buy and read and enjoy.
Psychological Thrillers: Escapism and Challenges
00:03:41
Speaker
And so my aim as a writer is really to provide them with that sense of escapism, because I know from reading psych thrillers myself, it
00:03:49
Speaker
it's just ah It gives me the ability to completely switch off my, you know. my brain in that way and just really focus on the writing and the plotting and get really lost in the secrets of other people, which can be quite nice and refreshing. Yeah, I can imagine. Is it difficult being someone that what you work in that space, obviously, like you mentioned, it's a very psychological thrillers are so popular that there's so there's a lot of people writing them. And you not just writing in that space, also working in that space, knowing kind of how tricky it is to to thread the needle. Does it make it difficult for you to like,
00:04:22
Speaker
is there a lot of pressure when you're thinking in yourself, oh this, how do I make this one stand out? Yes, definitely, because I do think it is a crowded area, as I said, and I've sort of come to the conclusion that it's very difficult to find a wholly original idea and that actually what makes novels stand out is the writing and the characterisation and occasionally you will get a book that cuts through with an idea that feels very unique or potentially a structure that feels very unique which I am quite interested in. I think structurally novels can be made to feel much more standout.
00:04:55
Speaker
by, you know, by doing something unusual with um the way that it's constructed. So for example, I really love a novel called Eight Detectives by Alex Pavese, which I didn't, I don't have anything to do, that I didn't publish it. um But structurally, it's really interesting and clever. um And I also did publish a book called Girl A by Abigail Dean, which has a really great structure where it's about um six or seven different siblings and the way the story unfolds it hides a big secret from the reader and that's all done through her use of structure and so I think sometimes the way to stand out in that field is that rather than
00:05:29
Speaker
having you know to have an idea which is wholly original and different from anybody else's I think that's very very hard to do um and occasionally you'll get what we would call in publishing a sort of high concept idea which can work but I think sometimes can fall flat as well so I think it's a balance and for me when I'm reading a novel I do think a lot about the hook and the concept But that in itself doesn't necessarily have to be totally original. It more has to be something that I can easily summarize that I can get across to a reader on a jacket and then a title and to my teams at Hodder. And then what I want is the voice to feel elevated and for the for me to feel as though I'm in really safe hands as
00:06:10
Speaker
someone reading. um And so I guess I try and apply the same principles to my own writing. And I obviously do want to have ideas that feel fresh and new. But I also think it's important to hone your craft and bring your own voice to your thrillers, um because there will always be overlap and crossover in that area of the
Standing Out in the Thriller Market
00:06:27
Speaker
market. And that's kind of unavoidable, I think. Yeah, there's only, especially if you're writing in a sort of genre of format, you know, you're writing to an audience who want a certain thing. So it is part of your mission statement is to basically do a similar thing to that has been done before in the genre. Yeah, I think that's a good point. And I think readers do like that as well. And we know that, you know, from the kind of research we do about demographics and what people are drawn to, and we analyze reviews on Amazon and other retailers. And so we know that not all readers need something to be
00:07:00
Speaker
wow, this is like unique and something I've never read before, often they want something that does feel a bit familiar, um but is very well done. And I often feel as though commercial fiction can get a bad rap sometimes. And really, commercial does not mean badly written, you know, commercial means very well written, but with also a great concept and a great plot behind it. And that's the driving force. And that's how we'll market it. But really, it just means for a wide, popular audience and often, yeah, there's there is overlap. but But that's fine, because the main purpose of our books is to entertain people and to take them out of themselves and to provide them with a brilliant story. And that story then doesn't need to be fully, fully original. I mean, it needs to be original, the authors work, but you know what I mean, I think it's fine for there to be crossover. And I do sometimes think authors get overly worried about that when really what they should be focusing on is
00:07:51
Speaker
characters and and how succinct their hook is. um And sometimes I think if I think about some of the best thrillers and crime novels that I've ever read, then um they, what makes them stand out is the characters. So for example, um someone like Liz Nugent, who's a brilliant Irish crime writer, um her new novel, Strange Sally Diamond is great. and And the main reason it's great is because of the title, but sorry, because of the the character Sally Diamond, she's a very unique creation as a character. And I think it's more doable to create a unique character than it is to create an entirely unique plot. Yes, I think that's fair. And something I imagine that you hear a lot. I hear a lot from authors when they're looking at talking to agents or editors or whoever it may be.
Editorial Voice and Acquisitions
00:08:35
Speaker
And ah when you ask the questions like, what are you looking for? Usually one of the main things is like, I'm looking for an original voice.
00:08:42
Speaker
Yes, I think the voice is really important. And also you can tell quite quickly, I would say. I mean, as an acquiring editor, I get sent a lot of submissions, I've actually just been doing some ah submission turn downs today, which is not a nice part of the job. It's when you have to um email the agents and say, you're not going to be acquiring and I know that those emails get passed on to authors sometimes. So I'm always trying to be quite careful about how I craft and things in case it does get passed on you know you want to be constructive but helpful and and sometimes it is just a case of saying I'm sorry I just didn't fall in love with this and that's really hard to hear but
00:09:16
Speaker
an editor we only have a certain amount of titles that we have space and time for on the list so we do have to be quite selective about what we buy and I think if I think about all the novels that I have acquired over my career I've really got to grips with The Voice really from the first page like I've sort sort of always known that it was going to be something I've loved really quite early on um so i I do think honing that authorial voice is important and also it's important to kind of capture that right from the start because If you're not capturing it right at the start, it's unlikely that an editor is going to read on. So it's no good if your voice kicks in in chapter six, because most of us won't get there. If it's not engaging before that, if that makes sense, it doesn't sound too harsh. No, that makes and makes perfect sense because the voice needs to be the thing that is from start to finish. Yeah, I think so. of like Probably more important than almost anything else is that the voice is there from for the entirety of the of the manuscript.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it is subjective, which is why there are some great books that only one editor bids on, or, you know, there are brilliant books that a lot of people bid on, but have different visions for. And, and so that author and editor relationship is really important. And I only want to take on authors where I can see a route to success for them.
Role of a Publishing Director
00:10:24
Speaker
And there are different levels of success, obviously, but my goal with my authors is to get their books into readers' hands. And it doesn't, you know, in different formats and to different audiences and so for me to really do that in an authentic way and to be able to champion their work really wholeheartedly you know over multiple books I have to be really in love with their voice and so if I'm reading something and it feels like it's good but I just don't really love it and I don't connect with the voice then I'm gonna pass on it but that doesn't mean that someone else might not take it on and often they do take it on and do a great job so I think if you're an author who's listening it's really important to
00:11:01
Speaker
get the right editor and and also have those conversations like if you are on submission and your book does or you know if you're getting meetings with editors or you're getting emails asking for meetings you definitely do the meeting and and and chat to the editor first because as a writer you also want your vision to align with the publishers and having that like personal connection to the editor is really important I think. Yeah. And you mentioned that you do also work on psychological thrillers in your work as a publishing director, but you are ah the commercial fiction publishing director at Hodder. So what other genres does that entail?
00:11:39
Speaker
So I also work on romantic comedies. I work on a couple of romantic authors and I work on book club fiction, which could be anything from historical to contemporary. um I do less of that, I would say, but I can do that and i my remit is across. those genres. So anything that could fall into the commercial category. So essentially anything that I think could sell to a popular audience with a strong, clear hook and a great authorial voice. um And the key things I also look for are how it fits with the rest of the Hodder list because our list is quite big. And we have some very established authors like Stephen King and John Grisham and Lucy Score and authors that are you know repeating every year and sometimes multiple books a year. So some of the slots go to them.
00:12:29
Speaker
And then we have a set amount of debuts that we've bought already. And so then when stuff comes in, it's kind of already competing against that list. And that's not to put anyone off, but it's just more to give context. If you get rejected, it really, it really doesn't mean your book isn't good. Like I have rejected so many great books, I really have. um And so it's a lot of it is about timing and about your position on the list. And do we have space? Do I have time as an editor? And I think as well, when you get more senior, which is something I'm finding now, You also have other demands on your time within a publishing house. So, you know, you manage part of the team and you have direct line reports and you do strategy things and you do more senior leader meetings and all of that takes away from all of that's really interesting. And I like it, but it takes away from your time to actually acquire an edit. And so that part of the job has to shift and change slightly. um So I would say I acquire less now than I did a few years ago, for sure.
00:13:23
Speaker
Right, okay.
The Rise of Romanticy Genre
00:13:24
Speaker
And you mentioned romanticy. Is that something that has recently fallen under the commercial fiction thing because it's trending kind of it's such a popular genre right now? Or has it always been there? Yeah, so our list is um interesting because it has an imprint called Hodescape, which is our SFF imprint. So I published two authors onto that imprint. um And They both write in the romanticy area and they, I would say, I mean, obviously it's had a huge boom in the last few years. um There's been a big resurgence in readers seeking romanticy out, it's hitting the charts a lot more. um There are subscription boxes like Fairyloot and Inluma Crate, which work with us and with other publishers um to provide sub boxes and get those books into readers hands in a different, in a subscription model way. And so that has a big impact on sales as well.
00:14:17
Speaker
um So yeah, I think it's always been part of commercial fiction, but I think for a long time it was potentially more sidelined into the sort of science fiction and fantasy area and now it's becoming a lot more mainstream. and ah publishers are sort of taking much more notice of it, which I think is great. you know there's ah but There's a really big engaged audience for romanticy and it'll be really interesting to see whether that trend, as it were, continues um over the next few years. I mean, I'm sure it will because I think the audience is massive. and And the thing I found with my authors and going to some of their events is just that the readers are so dedicated
00:14:52
Speaker
and in a different way to sort of more traditional crime readers, I would say. I mean, I've seen them come with tattoos of characters on their arms and making presents for the authors and, you know, being really quite overwhelmed to meet the authors. um And so, you know, it's quite a young audience, I think, so that plays into it a little bit. um But it's great, you know, whatever gets people reading, I think is brilliant. And it's nice that there is a big community there. And yeah, we we try to work with that community as much as we can. And and I'm glad that it feels a bit more mainstream, because I don't think any genres should be unnecessarily sidelined, as it were.
Commercial Fiction Market Trends
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, you understand why certain genres fall under the bracket of commercial, because, you know, the things like your crime novels, your your romance novels, they've always been very big sellers reaching very broad audiences. Yeah, exactly. They've always been huge. And there will always be some people that won't want to won won't really read romanticy. um And so I don't think it'll ever have, I mean, I think the sales are very big, and the audience is big, but that it's um
00:15:52
Speaker
you know, there there are still there will be some people who who won't necessarily read it, but maybe they'll try it, you know, and so that's great. I think there's always opportunities to reach new readers with, with other genres and get people out of their, you know, comfort zones a bit. um But like you say, crime and romance, obviously, just just enormous areas of the market and there's so many subgenres within them as well. So people will naturally find them a little bit more accessible, I suppose. yeah yeah Yeah. So you touched on it very briefly there, but what is the sort of, without going into too much detail, what is the sort of day to day of a publishing director?
00:16:29
Speaker
So it's really a mix and part of the reason I like it is because it is quite varied. So today, for example, I've had a couple of meetings. I had the acquisitions meeting first thing, which is where editors pitch to the rest of the internal teams with books that we want to buy. And we then look at costings. So we look at profit and loss report to see whether what we want to do is viable financially. um I then had a cover-up meeting where we look at new jackets with the design team and hemp give feedback on those jackets. um I will often have author meetings. So I'm having lunch with one of my authors on Thursday, and we're going to sort of brainstorm ideas for her new book and talk about the marketing campaign. I have catch ups with my team that report to me, um which is a mix of and commissioning editors and editorial directors and assistants. um So some of it is sort of doing that internal team piece. and There are a lot of meetings, I think the big publishing houses typically end up having a lot of meetings. um And then with the submission reading that it's
00:17:25
Speaker
essentially happens out of hours. So there just isn't time to sit at my desk and read submissions. So that all happens outside the nine to five, which I think is important to state because again, that can be why it takes a bit longer for us to get back to agents. um And then there's a lot of emails, you know, I'm emailing internal things. I've just sent around a big list of quotes that I've got for one of my debuts coming out next year to get the sales team excited about that. um So it's all really with the overall goal of driving internal and external people towards the books that you're publishing. That's the overall aim. um But then like I said, it's also about your team and connecting with the other divisions, not just editorial. um So it's it's a really like varied and flexible job, I think. um And I've also just got back from
00:18:08
Speaker
doing a month in New York um with the US team. So that was really fascinating to understand more about the American market and how that all fits together.
A Day in the Life of Phoebe Morgan
00:18:16
Speaker
um And I think part of the reason I love the job is because yeah it does give you opportunity to travel and it I think it's becoming much more of an international business as as the markets shift and change. we're We're working a lot more closely with America and we're selling a lot of books into Europe um and ah we're just trying to think as on a more global scale about our readers and who they are and how we get our books into readers hands on a global scale. So that's really interesting as well. Okay. Yeah. It sounds very cool. It sounds like you're spinning a lot of plates, but they're all interesting plates. But would I be right in saying that ah the core of it all remains the kind of your editorial input and and working with authors and choosing commissioning books and things?
00:18:58
Speaker
I mean, that's the overall goal. In all honesty, that's not the thing that takes up the time in the day. So I do all always still edit my author's books, but that, the reason I didn't mention it then is because it so rarely happens during the day. Like again, that happens basically at weekends or evenings. Sometimes in the day, I might be able to go and shut myself in a room and work on an edit, or I might be able to turn me out of office on and work from home. And do a structural edit it for one of my authors. um But it is quite tricky to find the time to do that during the day. um I mean, authors are at the heart of our business, like that's, they're the reason why we're doing what we're doing and your contact with you in contact with authors all the time. So that is definitely at the heart of things. And I always get back to authors very quickly, because it's our responsibility to kind of make them feel reassured and you know, their books are so important to them and to us and we take that part very seriously.
00:19:44
Speaker
but in terms of like the editorial work, it does end up falling outside hours just because of like the sheer volume of emails and meetings that we're having to do. And I'm not sure if that's a good thing, really, I think maybe there could be a different kind of focus, but it's very difficult, especially in a very big publishing house to find that um because all the other parts of the book are so important as well, for example, like the cover and the production side and the sales side. And so a lot of our, yeah, a lot of our work is going towards like getting the books to market as well as the actual editorial work. um And the editorial work is fascinating. And I love doing that. I love working closely with my authors and polishing their books and thinking about how we can make their books stronger. So that's a really key part. But it's something that kind of, yeah, it's difficult to carve out quiet time to do on your own as an editor.
00:20:29
Speaker
yeah Yeah, it sounds like, as I said, spinning many plates at once.
Manuscript Review Process
00:20:34
Speaker
um Here's something interesting that i was I was talking about with some friends recently is when you obviously, like we said, receiving a lot of submissions from agents and authors, um When you do decide to to move forwards with one, am I right in thinking that several, you will have given that manuscript to a few other people within a team or maybe within within different divisions before you move back, go back to the editor and go back to the agent and the author?
00:21:02
Speaker
Yeah, so I won't acquire a book unless everyone in the publishing house has been made aware of it. So if I like a book, I will, if I'm like a bit on the fence, I might just share it with a few close colleagues on the editorial team and get them to read as well. um If I am very keen and kind of sure that I want to go for it, then I'll email it around to like the whole company and then it will go through and everything has to go through an acquisitions meeting. So then I'll do what's called a vision document, which is where we put together our, literally our vision for the book. So who we're going to compare it to in the market, what's going to be the overall hook, which retailers do we think it's going to sell into, what kind of price do we think it should be, etc. And then I present that door vision document in an acquisitions meeting, by which point ideally, other people in divisions will have read some of the script and
00:21:48
Speaker
give me their, food they'll give me their feedback in the meeting. Um, so all of that has to be done before I can make an offer. What I might do is tell an agent that I'm enjoying it, or I might say, or I'm going to take this through a meeting next week, but I can never make an offer without other people having given a view on, on it. Okay. So then my follow-on question is, anyone who sees the bookseller will have read about these pre-emps that happen like the same day that the manuscript
Preemptive Offers in Publishing
00:22:15
Speaker
is received. How does that happen? So similarly, if we preempt something, and I have preempted a few things, you basically have to act really fast. And so I'll send the manuscript round.
00:22:26
Speaker
If I am really, really, really loving it, I might send it around having only read part of it and say, look, I'm really enjoying this. Can everybody drop everything and read some now? um And then I might say I'll follow up with a vision document like in a few hours or tomorrow. um And then we'll put together a costing really quickly. So that's when we do our profit and loss report. So we still have to do the steps, but they basically get condensed. um And look, not everybody kind of read the whole script to in within like an hour. I mean, um it's very rare for it to be an hour. Usually it's like overnight or maybe like two days or something. Sometimes it's hours, in which case...
00:22:58
Speaker
um you'll get you know people are trusting you a lot of the time. So you know but I like to think people will trust what I say if a book is is good. and And once you've worked in the industry for a while and you build up a good track record, then people say, okay, well, we'll trust her taste then and we'll support her on that. So there's a bit of that happening. But yeah, in general, people just kind of have to drop things and and read some. and And also that's kind of how you know you want to preempt as well. So if you're getting a lot of really enthusiastic responses, if people really love the concept and they say oh I've dipped in on my lunch break or I've read some just now at my desk then that does happen and then we can say actually let's try and preempt it because there's so much love for it here that we really really don't want it to go to another publishing house.
00:23:37
Speaker
Right. i In some ways it sounds a bit intense and scary, but in another way, there's something very kind of, I would imagine it's a very exciting moment if an email is going around being like, everyone, you need to read this pretty quickly. Yeah, buzz about it it definitely is. is quite It is quite stressful, I would say. And often now post COVID, like people are in different places. You know, I've like had agent calls while I've been on the train getting somewhere. Like there's, you kind of have to be always on with this sort of thing and it can move really fast and if an agent is emailing you saying, oh, I've got six editors progressing this, like, can you do this ASAP? Like you do feel a certain pressure. And I do have sort of mixed feelings on how useful that is for an author because
00:24:20
Speaker
I do sometimes worry that it means the author hasn't really had the chance to speak to everyone who's interested and talk about people's different visions and I think that is important and that you shouldn't always necessarily just go with the highest bidder or the fastest bidder.
Reality of Publishing Deals
00:24:33
Speaker
I think sometimes it's better just to so kind of just wait and let everybody have the chance to read and consider a bit more carefully. um But that said, there is, like you said, something very exciting about it and I think the reason people sometimes like pre-empt is it does show our level of ambition and it shows that we can be agile and nimble and that we really want to prioritize this book and that we will act fast um to to take off the table. So yeah, it's definitely really exciting, especially if you win a pre-empt, it's really fun. um And I wouldn't say it's, you know, it's not isn't always the way we operate. And I think it's very easy, if you're a writer, to
00:25:08
Speaker
sort of be a bit on the outside and be reading the bookseller and feel as though everybody is getting these six figure preemptive deals. And that's just so, so, so not the case. Like there are lots and lots of deals happening at a much lower advanced levels over a much slower period of time. Some deals like I've been negotiating on a contract for about six, seven weeks for an author at the moment, things do take a long time. And sometimes it will take people months, weeks to get even to read a submission. And that doesn't mean that everybody hates it or that it won't sell. It just means ah busy and it's taken a bit more time and so the bookseller naturally promotes the sort of big splashy headlines and it you know it's a fair it's a great trade magazine and it covers a lot and it and it reports on the smaller deals as well but there are also some deals that just don't get reported.
00:25:53
Speaker
um And there are some which, you know, maybe have been done months ago, but then saved up announcement wise until one of the book fairs and so that it looks like everybody's getting all these deals at the same time, but it's just not true. And so as a writer, you should just try and sort of tune that out and focus on your own journey, I think.
Misconceptions in Publishing
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah. And in terms of like understanding or like knowing how these things work, you've been doing this for a while now and from both the publishing side, industry side of things and as an author yourself, what do you think are the sort of common misconceptions that new authors have when they kind of move into the process, like once they sign their deal with the publishing house? That's a good question. I think people potentially don't realise how
00:26:37
Speaker
long the process takes. um So there are periods where you might not hear much from your editor because it's all happening behind the scenes or you know we might have bought your book and it'll be published in 2025 or 2026. So we'll have an initial call and we'll do the edits, but then it might go silent because the marketing and publicity plans so won't kick off until much later. And actually doing marketing two years in advance is kind of too far in advance. There's too many books coming out in between now and then for it to really be successful. So often things don't ramp up until much closer to the time. um So I think that's one thing. I think sometimes authors think that silence is bad and it's not, it's just that we're working on lots of books and there's things happening behind the scenes that the author doesn't need to be involved with. um I think the second thing is maybe ah involvement. So really it's our job
00:27:22
Speaker
as a publisher to design your cover and your title and how we position the book is really a publishing decision, not an authorial decision. And we always want authors to feel comfortable and happy with what we decide. But really, we're we're really thinking in their best interests all the time. And we're thinking about what the market will respond to and what retailers might like and what readers want. And so all of those things and all of that data is going into our decisions. And sometimes authors will have different views on what they would like their book to look like and I think that can be tricky to navigate because it's about letting go of control and I do think the best author-publisher relationships are when an author trusts their publisher and and sort of cedes that control a bit and lets us work together with them and that's not to say we'll push things through that they don't want but it is just sort of trusting our expertise a little bit and
00:28:13
Speaker
yeah working together as a team um and being collaborative and looking at it together and and allowing us to make those decisions. um So I think those two things are probably misconceptions that happen. um And i I really want to, you know, the reason I like talking on podcasts and doing stuff like this is I want the industry to feel more transparent to writers and I don't want it to feel like we're all behind these early gates and we're gatekeepers and I don't want it to feel scary and intimidating. And I totally get that it can. um I mean, I went to the HarperCollins party last week as an author, which was really nice.
Transparency in Publishing Relationships
00:28:47
Speaker
And I know lots of people there, so I was fine. But I was just thinking like how intimidating this party would be to somebody who was
00:28:54
Speaker
new to the industry and didn't know anybody. you know It was a huge party at the Victorian Albert Museum. Everybody's really dressed up. It's massive. There's so many people there. There's loads of celebrities there. and I think if you were just a debut author who had just signed and you walked in on your own, like that would be really, really scary. um and Actually, most people in the industry are absolutely lovely and very friendly. so there won't be any issues. But I guess it just got me thinking about how opaque and intimidating the industry might feel sometimes. And I really want to like give as much honest information as possible to try and make it feel less like that, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's that's what this podcast is all about. So yeah thanks for coming on. um Yeah, well, thank you. do You do a great job as part of that, obviously.
00:29:35
Speaker
um I do try. so i mean i mean To to kind of round off that, what you just said about trusting the publisher and the people working on the book is the thing I think that that you need to realise is that everyone is working together to try and make the but the book the best that it can be and to get it to reach as many people as it can. Yeah, definitely. and and That's our goal as well. and I think But you know, my authors are lovely, and I have really good relationships with them. But occasionally, in publishing, there might be clashes between authors and publishers. And sometimes I don't really understand that, because our goal genuinely is the same. And there's no reason why we wouldn't want your book to sell. And yes, I think sometimes frustrations can come when a publisher maybe doesn't have as much resource as it could or should have. And then authors might feel they're not getting as much marketing support as possible, or as they could have, or
00:30:24
Speaker
they look around and they see that other publishers have got more and i and i'm sorry other authors have got more and i and I totally understand that and I feel it and I can empathise but I think you've got to kind of have that relationship with your editor where you can have honest conversations, but also know that they have got your best interests at heart and that we're really all working towards the same goal. um And that your job as a writer is to write the best book that you can and yeah, to help promote it and do all of that. That's brilliant. And if we have authors that are happy to do that, then that's great. um But I think some of it is yeah, just building that partnership with your publisher and and building that trust and relationship and knowing that you're all working towards the the same thing, which is getting the book into readers hands.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yes, from everyone that I've met in publishing, the main thing is that everyone loves books and everyone wants all the books to be as good as they can possibly be. And for as many people as possible to read them. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's not, it's not really more complicated than that. that That's definitely the overall goal. um And sometimes things aren't perfect and things go wrong, but you know, we try, we do try to be the best that we can for our authors. And I think we do, you know, a great job of of that. a ho and I think it's, it's, um, it's important that that you feel that you are supported by your publisher. and And if you're not, then there's nothing wrong with raising that and having those conversations. And I also think that's why it's good to have an agent and have an agent that can advocate on your behalf and have those conversations, because no author should ever feel uncomfortable or feel as though things aren't going their way. And so it's always fine to have those conversations and open conversations and and ask questions. Like I really do think that's
00:31:58
Speaker
really important that we have like an open dialogue with all of our authors because it's their work and it's their book and it's so important to them as well. And it's, of course, it's every book is very important to us. But I think as an author and as a writer myself, like nobody's going to know and love your book exactly the same way that you do. That's just not possible. And so, you know, I'm very respectful of that. And I think it's, it's good as an author to to keep that in mind and and also just to have um like you say it's a really friendly community so I think having other friends who are writers and being able to use them as a support system is really important but what I would advise against is getting into that trap where you end up just comparing yourself to other writers all the time and I think that can happen in writing groups and that can be quite tricky to navigate so I'd say try and find the writers that feel like genuine friends and confidants and people that you can
00:32:46
Speaker
read with and talk to and really be there for, rather than people that you're just sort of there with on social media or people that you feel in competition with. um I think that can be quite tricky, for especially for new authors as well. Yeah, I totally agree.
Desert Island Book Choice
00:33:01
Speaker
And that brings us to the point in the episode where we head over to the desert island and I ask you, Phoebe, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be? Well, my absolute favourite book is a book called After You'd Gone by Maggie O'Farrell. I don't know if you've read it. um I just think she's such a beautiful writer. And I've reread it a few times. And every time I reread it, I sort of find another layer to it or another complexity to it. um I think it's her debut novel, actually. And I have always loved her writing and she has
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah, becomes, I mean, she was always successful, but I think she's becoming a much more successful over the last few books, potentially. And this one was one of her first ones. And it's quite a sad novel. um But I just think it's an amazing, like very complex novel about like family dynamics and secrets. And again, like her plots are I actually think her plots are pretty original, but then the main thing that I love about Maggie Fowl is her voice, and I just think she has an amazing style of writing and way of looking at the world. um So, and I can still remember reading that for the first time and just loving it so much. And I reread it again, actually, when I was on an island in um Thailand, and just, yeah, being blown away again. So I'm always up for a reread of that.
00:34:12
Speaker
Okay. Are you a big re-reader in general? I am actually, yeah. I re-read a lot and I re-watch a lot, which I don't, I feel like it's maybe problematic. I probably ought to expand my horizons more, but yeah, I find re-reading very, very comforting. um I mean, not like immediately, like I'll need a bit of time in between, but I think in general, I always discover something else or it just reminds me of how much I loved the book. Yeah, I am a big re-reader and rereader in general.
Re-reading Books: A Comfort
00:34:38
Speaker
I think I know some people who really never ever reread, um but yeah, for me with my favourite writers, i'll I'll usually go back. Yeah. I'm not a re-reader per se, but I would, mainly if I was waiting on a sequel that had been years in the making, I might audiobook a book that I'd already read, if that makes sense, to refresh my memory. Yeah. And I think, yeah, you do need to give it a bit of time. I did once start reading a book and had completely forgotten that I'd read it and then it felt like very familiar and I was like, I've already read this book.
00:35:08
Speaker
um And I don't do it with everything, but I think with the with the right books. um And I think it depends why you're rereading as well. Like, I think I reread that all the Bridget Jones novels the other day, and I had just forgotten like how funny they are, and how smart they are. And I was also, um I don't know if you've read them, but in the first one, it's around 1997. And there's the big labor landslide. um And so there's a scene where Bridget goes to a party um after Labour have won the election and obviously Labour have just won the election here. And so there's all this kind of symmetry, but it's quite funny to reread in hindsight. um So sometimes as I'll reread books for humorous reasons and sometimes just because I love the writing style and the prose. and So I think it depends what mood you're in. But I think, yeah, there's nothing wrong with a good reread. No, and you always find you always find more details that you wouldn't have you would have missed the first time around. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:35:57
Speaker
um Awesome. Next up, I have some questions about a bit more into the process of choosing manuscripts ah with the publisher, what's trending in publishing, but that's going to be in the extended episode exclusive to my wonderful Patreon subscribers. Head over www.patreon dot.com slash right and wrong to sign up for that. um You don't pick up a book, take it home, start reading it and then think, ah, this is not what I thought it was. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing.
Conclusion and Follow Phoebe Morgan
00:36:23
Speaker
Well, um that about wraps up ah this episode and this interview. So thank you so much, Phoebe, for coming on the podcast and telling us all about um your your writing and your work in publishing. It's been it's been really, really fascinating chatting with you. Good. I'm so glad it's helpful. And thank you very much for having me on.
00:36:41
Speaker
You are so welcome, and for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Phoebe is doing, you can follow her on Twitter, at Phoebe underscore A underscore Morgan, or on Instagram, at Phoebe Ann Morgan, that's Ann A double N. You can also find everything on her website, phoebemorganauthor dot.com. Phoebe's latest novel, The Trip, is out right now in all the usual places in the UK. Make sure to support the podcast by liking, following and subscribing on your podcast platform of choice and follow along on socials. Join the Patreon for extended episodes ad free in a week early and check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes. Thanks again to Phoebe and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.