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Episode 1: Searching for Safety, Redefining PDA
146 Plays2 months ago
Zach Morris M.Ed., Alive at LEARN
In this episode of the DIVERG. Podcast, we sit down with Zach Morris, Zach Morris M.Ed. the founder of Alive at Learn and PDA expert. In this episode, we delve into the unique challenges and strengths of PDA, misconceptions around the profile, and practical strategies for creating neuroaffirming spaces. Whether you’re a parent, educator, or someone seeking to better understand neurodivergence, Zach’s perspective offers invaluable wisdom and actionable advice.
Tune in for an enlightening conversation about redefining safety, embracing individuality, and advocating for a more compassionate world.
Podcast References:
- Alive At Learn: https://www.aliveatlearn.com
- Tilt Parenting: https://tiltparenting.com/
- Bright and Quirky: https://brightandquirky.com/
- PDA North America: https://pdanorthamerica.org/
- Speak Peace in a World of Conflict: What You Say Next Will Change Your World
by Marshall B. Rosenberg PhD - Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Life-Changing Tools for Healthy Relationships (Nonviolent Communication Guides) Part of: Nonviolent Communication Guides (15 books) | by Marshall B. Rosenberg PhD and Deepak Chopra | Sep 1, 2015
- Say What You Mean by Oren Jay Sofer
- The Declarative Language Handbook by Linda K. Murphy
Connect with Us:
Subscribe to the DIVERG Podcast. for more episodes that celebrate neurodivergence and democratize access to empowering information. Follow us on @DIVERGprograms on Instagram or visit www.Divergprograms.com to join the community.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Diverge Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
and they don't make movies about this. This is what I say all the time, right? Until you find yourself like maybe listening to this podcast or like in that group or all those other families, it's like you just might not have a ton of models that this is actually a totally legitimate path that people walk down.
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to The Diverge podcast. Inclusive of autistic and other neurodivergent voices, we
00:00:54
Speaker
um Thank you for joining episode one of The Diverge Podcast.
Introducing Zach Morris and Topic Preview
00:00:57
Speaker
I am your host, Christy Bergeron, mom to an autistic son and a very passionate advocate as it relates. to creating a more supportive world for our neurodivergent kiddos. Today on the podcast, we are kicking off with a discussion about PDA and leading that conversation is one of my favorite PDA experts, Zach Morris. For those of you who have not heard of Zach before, he is an audio ADHD individual and also the founder of a Alive at Learn, where he provides families with educational consulting services.
00:01:29
Speaker
specific to non-stereotypical presentations of autism. This is a really amazing conversation, one in which we dive deep into what it means to not just parent these kids, but really navigate that very sticky territory of supporting them through school and life and childhood in a way that prioritizes the most important things. We hit on a lot of topics, including my new favorite understanding of the PDA nervous system.
00:01:56
Speaker
um And a topic I actually don't hear discussed very often is how to navigate PEA in higher support needs autistic individuals. Zach is a wealth of information and resources and everything he mentions and references will be linked in the show notes. So be sure to check those out. I am really excited to dive into this, but also so honored that you are choosing to spend your time with us. So let's get into it.
Zach Morris's Background and Philosophy
00:02:21
Speaker
Zach, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Christy. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here. Amazing. So can you um tell us a little bit about yourself? Yeah, gosh, where to start? i um you know I guess sort of in the land of what we're talking about just to sort of orient everybody. I'm ADHD, I'm autistic ADHD myself. um So sort of come at a lot of my work with my lived experience and and also just sort of um have but just always been been drawn to these kiddos and have just ah
00:02:53
Speaker
that's sort of been where my world of work has been for a long time. So I'm um'm an education consultant and family support specialist, predominantly working with um families and schools um and other professionals to help people understand these different profiles of autism and ADHD and um help everybody access learning and healing and all of that.
00:03:16
Speaker
love that, and love that learning and healing go together. um One of my favorite podcasts, always ask, what's your sun, moon, and rising? That doesn't seem very applicable to this conversation. I've been told I'm a double Virgo. so yeah Oh, you double Virgo. Interesting. um But i do think one thing that's kind of interesting to talk about in the world of neurodivergence is what's your maybe driving philosophy or something that if you could wave a magic wand and change anything about the way people talk about the subject to perceive the subject what would it be. Yeah you know i get you know what am i driving.
00:03:54
Speaker
philosophies I guess is, or intentions is just wanting to support people in experiencing more wonderfulness. And I think that idea of wonderfulness is really unique to everybody. I think the ways in which that gets met is unique, right? So it sort of like helps us redefine our idea of thriving, of success, right? Of all of those things. So I think that's kind of like my reductionist intention is like, I hope everybody yeah experience more wonderful. And in terms of you know waving my magic wand and and you know what I would wanna see more of, I think sort of along those lines is I wanna see structures that prioritize a sense of safety and gentleness, like being at the forefront of of what we're doing with all of this stuff is like, how do we just offer more gentleness? Yes, I love that.
00:04:51
Speaker
um and such an anomaly in certain spaces. I love that so much.
Understanding PDA in Autism
00:04:55
Speaker
We met because um I have a son who is, we'll say, audio DHD on paper um with a little bit of a demand avoidance profile. um And when we were going through things um ah you know with school and and kindergarten specifically, demand avoidance was really the only thing that explained um one of my favorite parrot teacher conferences. He's great with a routine, but we don't know how to teach him anything. It's always been a fun um ah sort of antidote, but would love to just kind of understand um from your perspective because you do work so closely with homeschooling families and non-stereotypical presentations of autism. What is PDA?
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you know just for our just for you know people out there that are are maybe very new to it or anything like that, right ah the the full name right being, that I guess, for sort of formal name being Pathological Demand Avoidance. right There's a lot of talk and thoughts out there with all of that. right um what Some people you know really like that name. you know That came from Elizabeth Newsom and that gets used. right Some people sort of connect more with maybe the pervasive drive for autonomy. right So there's a lot of different ways of sort of talking about it. And in the way me and my colleagues you know look at it and are oriented to it is that PDA is a is a profile of autism. right it's ah it's ah It's a presentation of autism. And and more you know kind of in on the non-stereotypical side of things. right I often think about sort of stereotypical autism and non-stereotypical autism. And I think of PDA being like
00:06:37
Speaker
an atypical version of non-stereotypical autism. right So it's like tough it's kind of this even other fringe right sort of experience of it all. right And and in the way I really think about it, and I think about autism in this way in general, right of just being a different nervous system, um you know that experiences, processes, responds to things differently. you know Donna Henderson talks a lot about that, and in her book is this autism.
00:07:01
Speaker
um And I think about with our PDA individuals, right? Is that there's such a proclivity to get kicked out of my sense of safety, right? That like the way my nervous system and it is is sort of wired and oriented to things that that that proclivity for threat right And to get kicked out of my sense of safety in the way that I really ah establish reestablish safety is often through high levels of autonomy, often through needing to like reestablish some control around certain things. right So sometimes like our PDAs get really talked about, about like needing so much control and needing so much autonomy. I think it's more of needing safety
00:07:46
Speaker
It's just that autonomy and control are really good at giving me safety. right and And so we can see really high needs for that stuff because that is what what helps me real establish really establish that safety in my nervous system.
00:08:00
Speaker
interesting. And I see that a lot um in my experiences and kind of joke about it, my son's on the younger side. So we have a lot of situations where your knee jerk reaction, um because we were all raised like this to an extent is, oh, you do the thing I want you to do and then you can do the thing that you want to do and it never works out for anyone. yeah And to the point where you sit back and laugh and I'm like, nope, if you give him control for a little bit, like you're going to get so much further down the road of what we planned on doing yeah than if you die on this hill right now. yeah And it's such a flip and such a reorientation of how people are taught. to Yeah. and And so I think about it as kind of like, its it can be like an inefficiency in our neuroception, right? Like an inefficent in inefficiency in that sort of gauging threat or safety, right? So like what pings threat in my nervous system? Again, this is where the sort of like pathological name even comes from, right? As Elizabeth Newsom was like sort of researching this and looking at all of this, is that it's like, oh yeah, I might i might feel hunger.
00:09:07
Speaker
And rather than hunger like pinging and queuing me for like turning to food and going like, oh, I wonder what I will eat. Let me meet this need for hunger. like That experience of hunger could like ping that threat response of like you know this this now demand of having to like feed this part of my body and like do this. and and And so this thing that doesn't have to be a cue for threat. right doest For some reason is in my system. right And again, we could take this to the land of anything from physiological experiences I have in my system, like needing to eat or go to the bathroom to like the other things right that people are asking me of in the world to just those other self-imposed demands I have right around like things I want to do, but do to a certain degree. And if I can't do it to that degree, maybe I also experience threat in my system. Right. No, that totally makes sense.
00:10:04
Speaker
um And I think of the the back part of the question had just said, you know, what is PDA? What is it not? Which you answered some of that, but is there anything that it sort of gets stereotyped as? that Yeah, I think it's not like just demand avoidance, which i I think is really what it often gets sort of like pigeonholed into is that that this is really just where we see, you know, kids avoiding demands, being unable to to engage with demands. but But if there's so much more going on, again, when we just even think about it being an autistic profile and what's going on sensory wise and what's going on, like just processing information in different ways, right? Perhaps having different communication sort of structures, right? And all of these things. And so again, I think
00:10:53
Speaker
the idea is also that PDA individuals are engaging with demands all the time, right? So like we think of it as it's this like demand avoidance and they can't handle any demands, but it's just not true, right? yeah Because again, i'm I'm engaging all kinds of self-imposed demands all the time. I'm engaging all kinds of things that may be experienced as a demand for me but maybe someone else experiences a little bit differently right so i think it's it's it's way more complex than just. Being demand avoid. yeah No that's actually totally fair and i think it's really interesting because it's hard for people.
00:11:31
Speaker
to wrap their heads around. I call it the demand bucket, which might not be the right way to think of it. um But I feel like it's really hard for people to wrap their brains around that, especially from a more therapeutic sense. it's like there's only You only have so much capacity to work with, especially if you're trying to gain skills, that you really have to pick and choose your battles a little bit. yeah And I think that's where people really struggle.
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like, ah like spoons theory for anybody that's heard of that, right? Which is like, I go into my day and I only have so many spoons in my hand, right? And like, right everything that I do that takes like ah exertion, right? Like, like takes a spoon from me. And so like,
00:12:11
Speaker
at some point during my day, I may have no spoons left. right and did that Was that by 10am? Because again, just just waking up after a terrible sleep took a spoon and then going downstairs and someone saying good morning to me and that sort of pinging some threat that I have to engage verbally has taken a spoon from me yeah and then we actually didn't have that cereal that I normally like to eat and so that took another spoon you know and next thing I know like I've walked into my school day and everybody's like day is just starting we should be ready to go and I'm like I've given all my spoons out already I've heard a marathon already thanks no that total that totally checks especially the ah the unwanted conversation first thing in the morning
00:12:57
Speaker
or going through a little bit of a thing with my son where he's suddenly like very quiet around the house. um But my daughter never stops talking all of a sudden. And I'm like, oh, there's a correlation there. justs like She's exhausting you. In terms of the strength, I'm a big strength-based person. So what are the strengths of these individuals? So different types of nervous system, constantly seeking safety. ah But what's the flip side? i tend to always believe there are some really pronounced strengths where they're at. Yeah, you know, I think just creativity and divergence, right? Like divergence and thinking being one of them. um Just the the ways I'm processing, again, um
00:13:42
Speaker
problems or solutions or ways of doing things, right? Like just might be really unique and right, might be like looking at at certain details that like other people just aren't totally looking at, right? So I i think that's a ah huge strength is really just the creative thinking. right um I think it's really common actually with our PDA-ers to see some pretty significant hyper-empathy experience, right? And as much as that can be kind of like a both hands, right? Where it's like, yeah, that hyper-empathy, it's like one of my greatest superpowers and the most distressing part of my life, right? Like, and so, so, but as right, one learns to like,
00:14:23
Speaker
wield that and and and you know have sort of ways of navigating all that, that can be a huge strength, right? It's it's yeah why I do the work that I do in a lot of respects, right? So so I think the hyper-empathy experience, again, can be tough, but it can also have huge strengths to it. I think the level of strength and conviction that these individuals can have can be so strong, right, in terms of like,
00:14:52
Speaker
building an argument and like mapping out why and like helping someone, you know and like and staying the course on that conviction, even when like everything else would be trying to take you off course. and right like Not to say this doesn't also have challenge as a part of it at times, that' right but there's also like, it's it's it's it's why I built a school at 23. And so so there's like there's's so... Yeah, like there's so much that like passion and and and can be done and cannot write if I also feel like I have some supports around that or I have the the access points or the structures, right? So so I think this is the land of of individuals who can do really unique creative like, ah you know, things if
00:15:41
Speaker
I have that support and the spaciousness to explore it and the time to do all of my processing. right and so So the timelines look really different, but I think these strengths we see show up in a lot of domains. And let's talk about timeline because I think that's one of you know, as a parent raising an autistic child, but also just deep in this world, you fall into two camps, they do things in their own time in their own way when they're supported, or it's a race against the clock.
Developmental Timelines and Education Critique
00:16:09
Speaker
So can you expand on what you mean about timeline and getting kids what they need? Yeah, you know, if we think about autism, as just even
00:16:22
Speaker
um like impacting development, right? Like if you look in the DSM, right? Like autism is in like developmental disability category, right? And so so because of it impacting development, like there are parts of my development that are going to, that that process might be slower. That process might might happen at a slower timeline, right? There's gonna be other parts of my development where that may be, it happens,
00:16:52
Speaker
more rapidly than what is typical. right And this is this asynchronicity this that we see constantly with these kiddos. It's like, whoa, we're super far and kind of advanced in like this realm. And then in like this realm, we're you know like years behind some of our peers right and some of that. And so so I think When I think of timeline of development, i I think it's so common for all of us to have that experience of this like race against time. right I think as parents, this comes online all the time. right I'm a parent of seven and eight-year-olds, and I already experience like projecting, thinking about when they're 30. And in like all the things therefore we need to do today. So that 30, it looks like this. right like and like and they're in now it all works And that's like in my catastrophizing, that that happens. right Because I think what what I ultimately see serve these families and these kiddos, and what's ultimately really needed is to orient to this this idea that we have so much time.
00:17:54
Speaker
Right? that like that Because our kids often can get feel that rushed of timeline as well. Right? It's like, I don't work with any teens that aren't like rushed about like feeling like they got to figure this out and what they're going to do with their life. Right? so like But that typically doesn't help them figure it out.
00:18:10
Speaker
like being in that rush state, right? so So I think the timeline is really all about how do we look at this as a super long game approach? How do we start looking at this in like really elongated timeframes because traditional parenting, traditional education, like would really have us look at, here's what needs to happen today. Here's what needs to happen by the end of this year. like Here's where we should be next year. right and And I think finding thriving for families that are navigating these profiles
00:18:48
Speaker
comes from us looking in much broader, bigger ways, right? Of like, this is where it's not what can we get done today, but this is where I'm trying to, you know, orient more to like how are we maintaining safety around learning, right? As opposed to like, how do we make sure we we read this book today, right? Or something like that. Yes. Love that as kind of a grounding question. And it moves right into the sort of the next part. I want to talk about education. Yeah. um School tradition at like traditional school um often in doesn't contend well with these types of profiles, but ah
00:19:31
Speaker
What do you know? How can educators support and then we can get more into the homeschool piece? Yeah, you know, I think um i think when I think from a broad standpoint and I think about education being traditionally compliance driven and expectation driven,
00:19:54
Speaker
i think those are the models that i see not work out for these kids that like kind of until i'm consenting to that and signing up for that and like yes and long for that right yes from from an authentic place like if i'm signing up for that because i I'm totally afraid of what the future is going to look i don't know like. That might also make it challenging. I think compliance-driven, expectation-driven education models, I always almost always see follow-up for these kiddos. Models that are opportunity-driven and connection-driven, those are the models that I really see work for these kiddos. right so like In terms of
00:20:39
Speaker
institutions and like entities and schools that exist, they're mostly compliance-driven and expectation-driven, like up to this point of life that we're all in. right like like That's how most of... There's totally the unicorns out there. right There's these other places. Absolutely. But like there's a lot of schools that would fit into that compliance-driven, expectation-driven model.
00:21:03
Speaker
Right. Correct. So opportunity driven, connection driven has for a lot of families been the land of ah homeschooling, unschooling. Again, this has been the land of sometimes like different hybridized versions. This has been the land of those like unicorn, you know, private schools, right? And some of that. And And I'm seeing education change more and more as the years go by. So like what has traditionally been so compliance driven and expectation driven, I'm seeing these models like starting to try to do it different, offer something different. But the hard part is like it's hard to be in the middle.
00:21:43
Speaker
It's hard to like it's hardly to like mit make kind of opportunity driven and connection driven, but also kind of compliant. And this is what a lot of schools end up doing, right? And this is this is why I say like a lot of schools have still really been in like compliance driven yeah driven models because a lot of schools like try to do it halfway and that's like hard for our kiddos and it doesn't totally work.
00:22:08
Speaker
But it makes sense right that as like adults that's what ends up happening because like we want to set our kids up for success and we have fears and we want you know we want them to learn the thing right and all of this stuff but yeah i think that's why i've i've predominantly seen the overwhelming majority of of these kiddos move hoards homeschooling, right? Even whether that's at nine or 12 or 17. But we could definitely talk about, you know, like how kiddos that are in those more traditional models are sort of like finding their way or navigating it in some ways. But yeah, definitely.
Homeschooling Challenges and Strategies
00:22:46
Speaker
I've seen a lot of parrots because I connected with a lot of
00:22:49
Speaker
of parents who understood what was going on with their kid in kindergarten and first grade and tried, but had a really like really hard time. um One woman in particular, I was so impressed, like the list of accommodations and how well she sort of like understood. I need to check in with her. um But that was kind of always beyond me. I always feel like I'm feeling out my my son. So it's hard for me to say in advance, like, no, and this is what you do. Sure. Well, and it's hard because, you know, we talk about like these kiddos not being the kiddos you get a ton of chances with. Right. So like, so yeah, they're, you know, like if we take even just like the, the, the IEP process, right? That like, I'm a huge advocate for IEPs, right? We love IEPs. Yes. We love IEPs. I work on IEP teams all the time. Right.
00:23:41
Speaker
I also know that what the IEP process can include for a lot of families is like, well, before we try that, let's first try this. And then again, before we try that, let's first try this. And and what can happen is like a family might have like a really clear, strong idea of like, this is, our kiddo needs X. Like if yeah we could just have X part of this, like we really think that would be helpful. And a school might want to first try Y.
00:24:07
Speaker
right because maybe because why we already kind of have some of the staffing set up for that or we already have that you know and like that's and so let's try that first and if that doesn't work then let's look at x you know and what can happen is for these kiddos these kiddos we don't get a ton of chances with is by the time we get to they're already like need-based non-attendance. Like I'm already like, can't be there, right? yeah And so, so that's what's hard, right? Is like, whereas that process maybe is, is okay for some other kiddos. Like we can try that and that doesn't work and this and I try this and that doesn't work. And then we find this and like, it's like, I've, I've, I've often, I've sometimes heard it as like, these kiddos are not the dandelions of the world. Like every time you mow them over, they don't come back stronger.
00:24:56
Speaker
so like That's actually a really good point. And so so like that might work for some people. like That might be where some people get their resilience. It's not where these kids find it.
00:25:07
Speaker
right Which is probably largely a ah factor of obviously that their pace is nervous system But also just not buying into the system to start with totally so my um I was I say this about my son all the time and people laugh and don't believe me until they see it in real life I'm like I have never met somebody who can tell so quickly when an adult made a rule up just for the sake of making a rule up and It is. is like And it used to be kind of a point of contention between some friends of mine and they were like, what about the stuff they have to do? I'm like, you don't understand. He does the stuff he has to do. It's the things that are arbitrary or that there's another way that he's not here to play. Like he just knows and always has.
00:25:47
Speaker
yeah ah So I think it's so much about the kind of that system. And coming back to strengths, right? This is a strength I think. Absolutely. This is where I think our PDAs are helping us change some systems and structures that also probably aren't awesome for lots of people, right? They might be like, there are all kinds of structures that I, as a PDA, might just be unable to interface with.
00:26:12
Speaker
But that also, what also might be true is like interfacing with that same structure. Although there's like a lot of other people that can do it. Yes. It doesn't necessarily mean like they're thriving inside. It's good. Yeah. Um, one of my son's OTs has told me a story once. she She's just a very different kid. She's like, my daughter, fine in school. She goes, but they used a like weird kind of like reward system for the first year in kindergarten. She's like, my kids never had anxiety before her behavior was not at all an issue for all of kindergarten. And all of a sudden, she's the most anxious kid I know. And it's like,
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah. Like, this is not the best way to do things. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where it's like, as these, we talk like accommodations, modifications, like there, it's not so simple as like, well, this worked for this kid and this would be helpful. Right. It's like, I work with all those kiddos where sure, like what would might be a common accommodation that would show up in an IEP would like, be like, you're going to get extra time to work on these assignments. Like you get longer. yeah It's not do as soon. And it's like, that might be helpful for some kiddos.
00:27:16
Speaker
I also know plenty of kiddos where all that does is prolong my anxiety experience. yeah That doesn't actually help me get to the homework. like that just That just only makes me live in anxiety for longer. Correct.
00:27:29
Speaker
Well, and there's also, an and I'm coming from a little bit of a different place and we can go into this, but when there's like some sort of true like developmental delay on top of it that manifests a little bit more physically, right? Yeah. um Common accommodation for PDA, a give choices, but giving choices to a kid who struggles to even communicate what they want yeah is a whole other round of shutdown, which is something that we struggled with at school.
00:27:53
Speaker
um A lot of times PDA, when when we're having a conversation about PDA, it is geared toward kids who are fully verbal, um who present in very specific ways. yeah um But I think people are becoming more attuned to the idea that you can have a child who has higher support needs, maybe language deficits or things like that, and also has this drive for autonomy going on. How do you navigate that?
00:28:22
Speaker
this resonates because I'm like thinking of particular people I'm even working with where this is really resonating with some of their experience. And I think it's a lot of what we talk about.
00:28:35
Speaker
but honestly often to even sort of deeper degrees, right? Where it's the sort of like, well, as we think about really slowing down and really like i reorienting to our idea of what success is or what um what structures of our family are going to look like, right? Or all of these things that it just may be taking us to even slower realms around some of that, right? It might be taking us to even look more creative ways of thinking, right? Like if you think about a kiddo that's, yeah, like might be four years old and still has really limited verbal and like is not super receptive to some of our like attempts to like grow some of this verbal, right? Like again, I think the this sort of,
00:29:30
Speaker
you know, dominant culture idea would be like, we really need to help them grow that verbal, we really need, hey right? like like And it's sort of like, maybe, but also maybe too many attempts for that might just like,
00:29:44
Speaker
push us deeper, deeper into shame processes. or might like Who knows what might actually come from that? like more right like More direct support on that might not actually help. So this might be the land of like exploring, well, ah what are other ways of us creating opportunity for expression?
00:30:04
Speaker
or what other, right? Like it might not be in the land of verbal right now where we're trying to explore it with different tools and resources. Or maybe again, we are, there's times where like we might be trying to, right? I think I see this all the time as like a parent wants their kiddo to verbalize it. Like you say it like so that they're getting the practice, right? This would be the land of like, I can advocate for them.
00:30:29
Speaker
like I right because maybe maybe actually again like all those stressors all of those spoons that like actually me being sort of forced to be to say like yes, I want the snack, even though I've given you so many non-verbals that I want the snack, like maybe we that's not helpful to push that verbal right now, right? and And so I think it just takes us really deep into this like gear shifting down, this like doing for other others, right whereas like I think we often want to like empower them to be able to like
00:31:07
Speaker
do it themselves and be independent in it. yes right And so this gets us into the land of honestly talking about like independence versus interdependence. yeah I think right there's a big push for independence in our culture, but I'm i'm honestly more of a proponent for interdependence. I think that's more of what we're actually talking about with people is interdependence. you know So I think it's that land of how do I, if I think I'm going slow, like how do I go even slower?
00:31:37
Speaker
Yes. if you know Because we're already trying to go slow, but then you layer on some of these higher level support needs and it's just going to change that timeline even more. It's just going to change those support needs even more.
00:31:50
Speaker
you know Just for a really practical example, one of the things that we saw when my son, um, we pulled him from school within like three weeks, suddenly he was so much more verbal than he had been in the past.
Success Stories and Recommendations
00:32:05
Speaker
And what we kind of figured out was we had started a little bit of DIR training in floor time and it went back to the relationship piece. But one of the fundamentals that our supervisor had told us when you're like, you know, engaging with him, doing his thing, if he's making certain noises, make them right back.
00:32:21
Speaker
yeah And there was something about sort of entering into his world in that way, the eye contact that came out very quickly, his willingness to try to say things that he couldn't fully verbalize, like all of a sudden he seemed to be okay to let us know that he couldn't always say things correctly. yeah um And not that that ever came not that we ever did anything like in a house that would have discouraged that, we just didn't know how to encourage that sort of safety net around language.
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah. um and it's hard And it's so hard, right? And that's the gentleness we're talking about too, right? but it And it's hard because we might be hearing from like also speech person that we really have to like be working on our enunciation because that's also changing the way like our development of our like palette or chin, you know, is happening. and and And so it's not lost on me like the the connections and impacts like in all of these things, right? And it's not lost on me that like, it could be helpful for some of my physiology and some of my other experiences to be if I could develop speech in this way, but also
00:33:27
Speaker
if those interventions and supports take me into overwhelm and shut down, and ah then they're not actually helpful. What I think these parents are are pressed with the most, right like like I said, our PDAs that maybe like there is higher support needs is trying to make those really hard decisions around like what interventions are in like what uh sort of actions are we actually like really trying to do and make happen and what are we putting on the back burner and what are we right because this would be the land where everyone's like you got to do this and do this and do this now and and next thing you know it's like i'm just living a different 40 hours a week like rather than going to school i'm just doing all of these exact And again, huge advocate for all of these therapeutic interventions and supports, but these are also the kiddos that might not be able to handle as many of them or as much of it, right? Or might need it to just happen in in different times and ways. And I think integration is a huge thing.
00:34:34
Speaker
With us, what we've kind of learned along the way as well is, yes, there's OT. Yes, there's speech. All those things are really important. But there's a lot of OT in showing up to nature school two days a week and climbing some rocks and jumping in some water. So it's really just kind of figuring out my son is a very naturalistic.
00:34:55
Speaker
learner. And so when you can put him in an environment that feels real to him, most of the time he'll practice the skills. Not always, but most of the time. yeah um So that's kind of been our work around. Yeah, yeah. And and all so much of this comes with relationship too, right? It's like I can think about my kiddo um who is in speech right now and loves it because he just loves being with that person, right? And they just like and visit that wasn't what our what his speech experience was like previously necessary, right? So it's sort of like, so much whether we're talking even just relationship
00:35:29
Speaker
that i'm my kiddo's experiencing with us as parent, with an actual professional, like everything, every support need we're talking about, just standing on that like relationship feeling safe. And so again, that parent relationship, if if if it If that safety is getting compromised because what this relationship is turning into is I'm just the person who's always trying to get you to practice yeah that the therapies and interventions like it's hard for me to be home isn't home. Yeah, no 100%. Totally agree. And I think the other thing that's really interesting back to your empathetic point when it comes when it comes to therapist for better or worse, I call my son the ultimate vibrator.
00:36:10
Speaker
Um, and we've gotten to a point where like, I can literally watch him with someone in the first like little bit and be like, this isn't going to work. yeah And it's not, it's not anything to do with the person. Sometimes it's just, he's not feeling it right now for whatever reason. And yeah it's probably not going to change. Um, which is something to be like, I think really listened to with these kiddos, right? Not, not to say we're not trying to.
00:36:38
Speaker
also in time help help our kiddos sort of grow their window of tolerance, right? And all of these things. But I think what happens also a lot of times is like, that might be the case where it's like, oop, this isn't a good fit. This isn't gonna work out. Or like, they're just not, you know, and and we might keep trying to get it to work or keep going, you know, trying to like give it more time for this to, maybe this to relationship to repair. And sometimes,
00:37:04
Speaker
I mean, often a lot of times it's like, we just have to pivot. We have to like just yeah go to a different, it's not about kind of like trying to reform this little support and make it work. It's often where it's like, yep, it's like, oh yeah, we just might not be able to kind of make. Kind of do that right now. Yeah, yeahp we just might need something different.
00:37:22
Speaker
Well, and a lot of that too, I would assume over time as you get control and command of your emotions, cause there's also a developmental piece, right? Like at the end of the day, you have a four year old with four year old emotions and there are things neurotypical four year olds can't really navigate. So trying to fix all of that in one setting.
00:37:40
Speaker
is tricky. yeah um So just being patient, big fan of just developmentally taking a deep breath when we can. oh ah So yeah, so let's talk about, you know, going back to kind of the beginning, in terms of practicality, if someone is listening to this or has just stumbled across like PDA as a profile, what are the most important first couple of steps? What should be understood, implemented,
00:38:08
Speaker
What's critical? Yeah. Um, a couple of things come to mind, not in particular order. Um, I, I think connecting on some platforms where there are other people living this neuro divergent life is, I just see to be so essential for these families because this can be such a lonely experience. This can be such a,
00:38:36
Speaker
confusing experience where we're, we find ourselves constantly second guessing ourselves and the messaging we get from like the outside dominant world is like, we should be doing X, but we're doing Y. And so then we're wondering if we're doing it right. And then next in, and so all of a sudden we're getting pressured to pressure our kids and then we pressure them and then right. And this can be kind of what happens, right? If we especially aren't connected with other people and other families that like also note this are also living life like this. So there's great stuff out there, not trying to sell anybody on anything, but this is like you could check out the land of Tilt Parenting and Debbie Reber's work in Tilt Parenting Realm. Again, some of these even have
00:39:23
Speaker
monthly support groups you can kind of like be a part of right and and get different access to different things so like tilt parenting is is one of those lands um there's something called bright and quirky out there it's also like similar right um all kinds of other things but but i think that's something i would definitely recommend is like needing parents needing to be able to talk about what their experience is and have someone go, oh my gosh, we were there three months ago, or like or my kid's 16, let me tell you about when they were 10, or like, oh, that makes total sense, I get it. you know As opposed to what often the messaging is, we're telling people about our experience, and then they're telling us all the reasons on why we should be doing it differently.
00:40:04
Speaker
or why it would make sense for us to be having this experience instead, right? So so connecting with platforms where we can just like be connected with community, with our people, right? um
00:40:17
Speaker
I think something else I think about is, and this has just been so impactful in my life, I think it is such a part of so much of the philosophy I talk about in ah in in a lot of this orientation to things is Marshall Rosenberg's work in nonviolent communication.
Communication and Parenting Strategies
00:40:37
Speaker
I would like have people look into that.
00:40:42
Speaker
way of communicating. um Because it's not only a way of speaking, it's a way of interpreting. It's a way of observing. It's a way of making sense of experience, needs, and and in know in a way of talking about it in ways that minimize fear and defensiveness for people. And and i think if we if we think about a nervous system that has a proclivity to get kicked out of its sense of safety,
00:41:12
Speaker
whatever I can be doing to minimize fear and defensiveness is gonna be helpful for that, right? really And I find NVC practices, NVC lenses to be so helpful for that. um So Marshall Rosenberg has got books out there. there's He's even got some like workshops up on YouTube from like back in the 90s probably or things like that. um ah Nonviolent communication, speak peace in a world of conflict or nonviolent communication, a language of life are are two books I highly recommend. Very cool. There's also some other people um that are taking some of that work into some different application. I want to say there's a book out there by Orrin J. Sofer called Say What You Mean. That kind of like brings in NVC practices and somatic practices and and sort of all of that stuff. Very cool. Similar to, I mean, it sounds like the same thread as the declarative language and book, which I think it's passed around a lot. It's similar. I think, yeah, I think if if if for anybody that was intrigued around some of that and has found some value into declarative language, then yeah, I would definitely encourage you. It sounds much deeper. yeah and I think it's just going to take you even further into some of that. The last thing I would say on this, in and this is the really hard,
00:42:36
Speaker
I think, which is befriending our own nervous system he and kind of confronting and challenging like our own ideas of success, our own experiences, right? Like, like really getting to know how I experience certain things. Because that is not because that how I experience things gives me information, right? It tells this is typically what leads us to take actions around things. So like when I'm having experience that tells me
00:43:13
Speaker
this isn't okay, they need to be doing X. Like, like that is that's one experience, right? But there's also, could be more going on, right? For of like, this might be that as I observe something, this is just really hard for me to observe because it triggers this part of me. And you know what I mean? And like, and actually, maybe it's not essential this person does this thing.
00:43:42
Speaker
Absolutely. Maybe that i I have this need and this is just how I normally get it met, right? Like there's so much to sort of look at, but I think this land of really like... confronting and challenging our ideas of success and along the way that really means befriending our nervous system because absolutely there's going to be a lot of things that are hard to experience, hard to observe, hard and and I'm going to need gentleness and compassion and empathy in that, and I'm going to need time to process, but I think this is the land of where we really find like
00:44:15
Speaker
What does it actually look like to collaborate with this person? To help them experience more wonderfulness. No, I love that. No, I totally agree. I think there's always, there's jokes in all the memes and all the groups about, you know, it's the, my son is autistic. Turns out no one in this family is neurotypical pipeline. It's somewhere. And I feel like that's step one. And then there's like, Oh, how much have I internalized about myself yeah or even about other people's efforts or lack what I perceive as like a lack of effort or something yeah that really ties back to.
00:44:50
Speaker
I like sort of pushed this part of myself away a long time ago to and learning to work through those things. Yeah. And in that being gentle and pursuing understanding is the hardest stuff.
00:45:07
Speaker
Like that's the, you know what I mean? Like it's really easy to to push people. Like it's really easy to rush them. It's really easy to like feel so certain on what needs to be done in order to achieve X, right? Like it's actually really hard to like go slow and like be curious, not from a place of like leading because I know, but actually curious, right? Like it's hard to like,
00:45:33
Speaker
Give gentleness when I'm thinking that like is what's really needed, you know, like, like, so, so, so I think part of this is also internalizing that like, this is so hard. This is so.
00:45:49
Speaker
This is such a different path than the path that we've like been led to believe we should walk down.
Societal Perceptions and Parental Support
00:45:56
Speaker
And it's not ah in it and if everyone's being fair, it's not a well-resourced path. Totally. It's not the way people think about kids and child development. And I say this a lot, especially when you know the conversation leans to compliance. it's like The battle we're fighting sometimes has nothing to do with neurodivergent kids. It's the way society perceives kids and who they should be and how they should act in general. It was like you still have people undoing that in completely different sectors. So I think that's... totally fair. A lot of times what I see too, and people working with these kids, and I fall into this trap as well, right? If we know something's supposed to work a certain way, or we've been really good at doing something in a specific way with the neurotypical kid or what, or just a different type of profile of kid, it's
00:46:42
Speaker
yeah It's easy to get transactional, I think, with the connection and the relationship piece and do it for a while. And then all of a sudden, when it's not producing the same results on the same timeline, or you're seeing like less results, it's easy to sort of panic um and feel like you're missing something. yeah um And I think for a parent, it's a little bit easier to kind of calm yourself down. Whereas if you're a clinician who's answering to someone, and it's a little bit trickier yeah um to have faith that it's It's going to be okay. 100%. Yeah, and they in like they don't make movies about this. This is what I say all the time, right? It's like, this is not so great. It's like, yeah, we don't have a ton of models to go, but like but this works out, right? Or like, this is so this is yeah how some people do it, right? like And so again, it's like until you find yourself like maybe listening to this podcast or like in that group where all those other families, it's like,
00:47:37
Speaker
you just might not have a ton of models that this is actually a totally legitimate path that people walk down. Absolutely. And I think in two, it's sometimes you have to kind of go back to to how you ended up here. And for better, for worse, um i'm kind of reminding myself right now as you know, we did the preschool thing and we went into kindergarten. And all of a sudden, like what was passable at one point, we know it wasn't perfect, but was passable, was actually causing harm. And when I really started to dig into stuff, part of me was like, I could very easily have a kid in 10 years who can't get out of bed and brush his teeth, because this has all been too much for too long. And so I think there's weighing that like, um what might not happen, but what also could happen if you don't address it. Yeah, like skill wise. So yeah, and, and I think,
00:48:26
Speaker
you know, parents, professionals, right? I think also really need structures and things in their life that can can help give empathy and compassion around all this process because like we're going to mess it up constantly. Like I'm right. It's like, I'm going to rush my kid still a little when I don't mean to. And there's, a you know, like, and that like,
00:48:52
Speaker
it's easy to then beat myself up and get into shame and like all, but like we have to go into this, I think knowing that like, of course that's going to be the key, right? Like of course I'm catastrophizing right now. yeah I like, I care so deeply about my child and these are the past experiences we've had. And so I don't really actually have any data to say this is going to work. You know, so like I, I, I just want to sort of,
00:49:19
Speaker
I guess bring parents to that idea and and professionals that idea that like, I need support structures around some of that too, because I can't just, it's it's not as simple as going like, well, I'm just not going to worry about it. Or like, I'm just not gonna, I'm just not gonna like ever push them to do X. It's like, that's an easy way to set us up for shame cycles and all of those things. And again, like I need a lot of that empathy and of courseness and gentleness. And then to also look at like what sets me up for success to like yeah experience more moments of patience or more moments of slowness, right? So like I can explore all of that, but I also likely need to go into it knowing that like, oh, of course this is happening for me right now. Yeah.
00:50:08
Speaker
No, definitely. um And that makes total sense. See someone decides, okay, the school system isn't going to work. We're going to opt out of the system. I think the biggest switch, and this is kind of what you were talking about, is you go from advocating for your child um within a system that maybe doesn't get them to being sort of the ah the system and kind of the only person who gets them as well. Any sort of advice beyond empathy, compassion, and support systems for that? Because that is a huge shift.
Thriving in Learning Environments
00:50:38
Speaker
yeah yeah well i think that i like that idea of really orienting to what we're actually doing as we get into homeschool maybe, right? Because I think what happens a lot to your point is is people go from doing school at school to doing school at home.
00:50:56
Speaker
guilt And that's like, that's typically where it doesn't work out, right? Like that's typically where, yeah, like I just now I'm the teacher. Now I'm the person trying to get you to do that, right? And so it's like, so a lot of this is that reorientation to what actually are our intentions here? like What actually like am I facilitating structures for? right because Because again, if i if if I just get into that other model, that also might not work out. That might not feel good for either party here. right So I think it's it's that starting from the beginning of really really getting clear on what's my job description here?
00:51:41
Speaker
right like like Even as someone who's who's navigating the homeschooling, this is why I often tell parents, like your job's not to become your teacher, actually. like Your job is to help them find their teachers. oh And their teachers might be actual teachers online when they take a class. Their teachers might be their own hobbies. Their teachers might be, you know what I mean? like Our teachers are not necessarily just people that stand in front of us and tell us stuff. and to do at Our best teachers are often like our relationships our our hobbies, our pursuits, right? like Sometimes definitely people that stand in front of us and give us information, right? but like But this idea of, oh yeah, you can imagine that takes us to a very different place if I think my role is to become my kid's teacher versus I think my role is to help them find their teachers. Yes. Oh, I love that. That's actually a really good analogy. I wish I had had that a year ago.
00:52:31
Speaker
And is there sort of, I find with my son, there's kind of an ebb and flow with things, like things that he maybe is into for a minute at some point, suddenly he won't be anymore. Is that typical with this profile or are all of the autism? Yes, I see this a lot, right? A huge piece of this. I think two pieces that fall into this is like we know novelty can be huge for these kiddos, right? We love novelty. And so like that's just a part of it, right? i And then the other part is like,
00:53:01
Speaker
like i the way interests can show up, right? Which is like, oh, yeah, became an interest. Now I need to like suck the marrow out of this to like nth degree. And then once I've done that, I just kind of have no need for it. I was like nothing. I maybe like don't need it at all in my life, right? And I'm like ready to do that with the next thing because sometimes it's more about that process and experience and then it is the actual just thing.
00:53:29
Speaker
Yes, you know the process of getting into something, I do this with jobs when I switch clients, but the process of getting into something, decoding it, learning it from front to back and that's the accomplishment and the thing is like kind of irrelevant. Yeah, totally. in the man and And so I think we see this constantly and that again is something that is is different than the sort of dominant culture way of doing things, which is like, you do things for a really, you forever get better at it. you forever you Or you try to you know manage it and balance it and not just like spend your whole week doing it. like yeah you know And it's like, i i try i I tried to set up my life not to do those things and just hasn't really worked. like I've had to actually set up my life to be able to like
00:54:17
Speaker
completely go down that rabbit hole and I've had to set up my life to be able to like get that deep into something and then completely move on, right? like And so so i i I think the ways we support that for our kids is just really normalizing it, you know, for their experience. Absolutely. Expertise a lot of times is tied to um time, I think, in society, whereas
00:54:43
Speaker
For some brains, it just doesn't work that way. yeah You can have a lot of information about something in a short amount of time and then there's a gap. And then I think, you know, when we first chatted,
00:54:55
Speaker
ah we One of the things that you said to me that was like, just I haven't forgotten was you can learn anything at any age, but it's really hard to get to your 20s and your 30s and realize that you don't know yourself or that you've been told everything about you it is wrong. Can you expand on that a little bit more and how it relates to this profile? Yeah. you know i i think that's I think it's just one of the biggest obstacles I see for like my older clients that that I work with, right? Like so, you know, it's like, yeah, sometimes families come to me and their kiddos seven, right? Sometimes families come to me and their kiddos 22, right? and And by the time i've I've experienced so much patterning and conditioning in my body, in my system, in my nervous system, in all of those, that like,
00:55:47
Speaker
to detangle that, to make sense of it, to like to do that all while I'm sifting through my self-imposed demands and my shame. and my right like Because by the time I may be there, not only are we dealing with neurotype, but we're dealing with traumas.
00:56:07
Speaker
right and so it's sort of like i don't What we see is that it's incredibly common for neurodivergent people to have trauma, right? Just because like being neurodivergent in a world that wasn't built for for that yeah those neurotypes is traumatic, right? Like over time, especially, right?
00:56:24
Speaker
and so So to work, so what we're talking about is like but not only working through maybe trying to get to know myself or maybe trying to like change this part of my process or something, but I'm trying to do all of that amidst trauma experience possibly. Right. And so every time I go to try to work through that stuff, maybe I get that much more triggered and in my shame and in my catastrophe. Right. And like, and that all just ultimately can just grow and become that much harder. Right. When we're, when we're 20 or when you're 40 or when you're right. Then, then if I'm starting to navigate that stuff, perhaps as a 10 year old writer. And so, so what I find is that like, it's easy to go learn algebra.
00:57:10
Speaker
like Like when you're ready, and and I say easy meaning, right? The caveat is like when you're ready and having sort of like intellectual capacities to be able to do, right? That like not lost on me that this could be super hard, right? For for certain individuals in all kinds of situations, but like,
00:57:26
Speaker
If I've got the faculties, like if I'm ready, like going and learning algebra is is not hard. Like the content is all over the internet. yeah Like not hard in the sense that it's not hard to access it and find a practice for it. Might be challenging for yourself, but meaning like you can go and get that. And it's just a matter of showing up, right? And getting the content and doing all of that stuff.
00:57:46
Speaker
That stuff doesn't quite exist in the same way when it's like, so who are you and how do you experience the world? And like, what's that sensation mean? in your esdy And what's that like? It's like, that's not on the internet. Like I can't go and search for that, right? Like this is often like long processes of therapeutic supports and intervention, right? And all of that to go through that process. And so, so gaining academic content,
00:58:11
Speaker
I just see to be such an such a more streamlined process than accessing like social emotional social emotional complexities. And that's where it's it's so hard because it's not even chosen. like I might really want to do some of that stuff. like I might really want to get to know myself better. in all But again, I'm out with the mercy of a nervous system. So if my nervous system has developed,
00:58:38
Speaker
really small window of tolerance around this thing. It's like, this is why it can be such a long process is because every time I go to explore that, I maybe get super dysregulated and overwhelmed and so that I can't really explore it very much. And so, so exploring that then becomes a long process.
00:58:54
Speaker
Yes, now totally makes sense. And again, the same can happen with academic content, right? It's like yeah every time I go to work on math, I get triggered in my system and all. But that's why if we just can break from some of that for some time and fuel some of those parts of myself, once we get back to it, it's I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about just kind of the work that you
Zach's Work and Contact Information
00:59:13
Speaker
do. So, Alive at Learn, I know you're on the you work with PDA Association of North America. Where can people find you and what sort of services do you offer? Yeah, you can find me um at aliveatlearn.com. um That's my my web website and you can find me on PDA North America. That's why I'm on it.
00:59:32
Speaker
i'm ah i'm and I'm connected to the the world of tilt, like like we talked about earlier, i bright and quirky. So I'm kind of in sort of all of these spaces, but um I do a lot of work with families directly. I do a lot of parent consulting and parent coaching for families that are like trying to navigate all of this, right? I'm different than the sort of education consultant that just helps with placement. I'm really helping parents navigate the ins and outs of of really all of this. So like sometimes this is is Navigating family dynamic stuff that's happening and how we're even trying to have any of these conversations around school let alone choosing what we're doing or anything right right um to helping families you know build homeschool curriculum things right so. um help families in that kind of whole realm. I work with schools directly a lot, consulting with schools, trying to help them overhaul some of their programs and and serve more of these kiddos um and and then do like lots of trainings for professionals and and parents in some different spaces. so
01:00:35
Speaker
um Yeah, those are mostly the places you can find me. I'm not on the socials, so you'd you'd find me on on my website or or some of these amazing. I'm jealous alive alive at learn.com. um That's awesome. Any any other like closing comments or thoughts? This has been so good.
01:00:53
Speaker
Thanks. No, just ah grateful for for all of you families who are showing up for your kiddos in these ways, right? Trying to learn more, trying to advocate, um trying to to create that that secure base, you know, for for these kids to feel safe. I'm i'm just, um yeah, I'm grateful that there's people out there. and And thanks for having me and thanks for doing everything. Thank you for joining us. Yeah, thanks.
01:01:21
Speaker
Thank you everyone for tuning into the diverge podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please do not forget to subscribe, leave a review, share it with someone who might find it helpful. And if you want to keep the conversation going, please pop over to Instagram. We are at diverge programs, or you can check out our website divergeprograms dot.com where there are more resources and information about what we're doing in terms of camps and classes. I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend and we will see you again next week.