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The Journey of a Ballroom Dancer and her Doctor
58 Plays3 years ago
Dr. Laura Solomon shares her journey as a professional ballroom dancer, overcoming reconstructive ankle surgery and a career-threatening Jones fracture in her foot to compete at the highest levels in the world of ballroom dancing. She is joined by her team; her teacher and partner, Oscar Pedrinelli, and her podiatrist, Dr. Howard Osterman. They talk about the power of positive thinking, treatment for a Jones fracture, prevention foot and ankle injuries, and what it takes to excel in dance.
Links
Athletes and the Arts: http://www.athletesandthearts.com
American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine: http://www.aapsm.org
Blackpool Dance Festival: https://www.blackpooldancefestival.com
Our guests:
Dr. Laura Solomon is a special education consultant in Washington, DC, who is an avid ballroom dancer and who competes in national and international pro-am competitions (i.e. was a silver medalist in ballroom dancing in the Sydney, Australia Gay Games Olympics). She and Oscar have won and have been finalists in many other competitions in the United States and overseas. In 2019, she placed second in her age division at the prestigious Blackpool competition in Blackpool, England, dancing with Oscar on a severe ankle injury.
Dr. Howard Osterman practices in Washington DC and Silver Spring, Maryland and is a former President of the AAPSM. He has represented AAPSM at the Joint Commission on Sports Medicine and Science and is the team podiatrist for the Washington Wizards and a consultant to Georgetown University athletics while being a partner in the Foot and Ankle Specialists of the Mid-Atlantic, LLC.
Oscar Pedrinelli is from Milan, Italy, and began his dance training as a young child. He lives in New York with his wife and professional partner and spends his time between NY and DC. When he is not dancing, he is pursuing a degree in business.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Athletes in the Arts podcast, hosted by Stephen Karaginas and Yasi Ansari.
00:00:20
Speaker
Hello again, and welcome to the Athletes in the Arts podcast. Along with Yasi Ansari, I'm Stephen Karaginas, and welcome to our show today.
Focus on Dancer's Injury Journey
00:00:28
Speaker
And on today's show, we're going to talk with a dancer and her doctor. We'll learn about their journey together through several severe foot and ankle injuries to help her compete at the highest level of ballroom dancing.
Introduction to Dr. Laura Sullivan
00:00:40
Speaker
Dr. Laura Sullivan is a special education consultant in Washington, DC, but she's also a professional ballroom dancer, winning and placing in numerous national and international competitions over the last decade. She took the silver medal in the Sydney, Australia Gay Game Olympics and second place at the prestigious Blackpool competition in Blackpool, England.
00:01:01
Speaker
Joining her today is Oscar Pedranelli, her dance partner and longtime professional ballroom dancer. We will also
Introduction to Dr. Howard Osterman
00:01:08
Speaker
meet Dr. Howard Osterman, a sports podiatrist in Washington, D.C. He is the past president of the American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine, a representative of the Joint Commission on Sports Medicine and Science, and team podiatrist for the NBA's Washington Wizards and Georgetown University.
00:01:26
Speaker
Howard, Laura, Oscar, thank you so much for spending time with us today on our show. So before we get into the journey, let's set the table a little bit. Dr. Howard, we just mentioned that you're the past president of the American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine. So what is a sports medicine podiatrist and what is your scope of practice?
Evolution of Sports Medicine Podiatry
00:01:46
Speaker
Well, podiatry is a profession that has evolved quite a bit. You know, back in the old days, they was called chiropitus, which is hands and feet. CHIR, the prefix, is Greek for hand, so chiropractors or hand manipulation. But as it has evolved, it's evolved into lower extremity, and it has evolved into a surgical specialty in a bunch of different varieties of stuff.
00:02:11
Speaker
So in my particular practice, we do a lot of sports medicine. One of the reasons that I gravitated towards podiatry was because we could be full service in that we could treat diabetics, we could treat kids, we could treat adults, and everything from primary care to surgery. You know, you can complete what you start, and that's a good part, and that has really evolved in our profession. Well, in my particular practice, we've evolved towards a sports medicine-oriented practice, which is
00:02:38
Speaker
dealing with high school athletes, college athletes, professional athletes, and a lot of recreation people who want to stay active into their older years. So that's what my practice really does.
Collaborative Athlete Care
00:02:50
Speaker
So, to be clear also, you also are, I mean, it's not just like orthotics and taping and rehab and injections, but you're also like surgery and surgical corrections and some pretty advanced stuff, right? Correct. And, you know, it's everything below the knee. I mean, if you rupture your Achilles tendon, you fracture your ankle. Yeah, you need your ankle reconstructed. I mean, we do all of that. You know, so that is something that has been garnered over the years that didn't used to be the case.
00:03:17
Speaker
The American Academy of Podiatric Sports Medicine is actually a subset of the group where basically it's a group of people that have put together their minds to try to make the profession better in that respect. And it's really become multi-specialty oriented with things like the Joint Commission on Sports Medicine, which is how I met your group. And I've been the representative for podiatry for that reason. What happens is you get this collaborative effort of where everybody can help athletes get better. So for me, I've been president of the AAPSM.
00:03:47
Speaker
Um, I've been on the board, which I'm now off the board, but I've also been the representative to the joint commission, which has also been an unbelievably good thing in trying to get everybody to do. Or at least get us all on the same wavelength, you know, as far as how we want to do that. That's impressive work. So, uh, Dr.
Laura's Career in Special Education
00:04:05
Speaker
Laura, you are not only a professional in dance, but also as a special education consultant. So what kind of work do you do? I run a private practice here in Northwest DC and my home.
00:04:16
Speaker
I work in all three states, DC, Maryland, and Virginia in all counties with families with children ages birth through 21 or 22, depending on the state, and a variety of educational disabilities or, as I like to say, different learning abilities. Every child has the ability to learn.
00:04:37
Speaker
And I do diagnostic evaluations. I do parent counseling. I do behavior management. I set up programs for use in the home and in school. I develop program plans. I work with school teams, private, public, and I've been doing this for a long time. This is my 38th year in private practice. I worked for Head Start for two years before I opened the practice and I taught and tutored for 10 years before that.
00:05:07
Speaker
And Oscar, you've been dancing with Lauren now professionally for how many years?
Oscar's Dance Journey
00:05:12
Speaker
For seven years, but I started to dance, let's say, when I was five years old. I'm 37 and I started in Milan.
00:05:23
Speaker
my natal cities. And then I moved here at the age of 27, obviously pursuing my ballroom dancing career. And New York is the place also where I met my wife. And we started to live together, to dance together. I'm dancing professionally with my wife too. And yes, that's my story. So, Laura, can you tell us a little bit about how you got involved with dance and how dance plays a role in your life?
00:05:53
Speaker
Sure, I really love to tell this part of the story. When I was seven years old, I always danced something. When I was seven years old, I guess through my parents, went on the show that was called Popeye Playhouse at the time.
00:06:09
Speaker
And I won a gallon of birch beer for winning a twist contest. I was very excited about that. I always did social dance, and in high school I began to train in modern dance. And I trained in modern and then in jazz through my 20s and 30s. And I trained very seriously. I would go to dance camps.
00:06:32
Speaker
For example, Bill Evans Dance Company runs a summer program in Seattle six, eight weeks every summer and I would go and I would do that. And then I got into Latin and then I started dancing Latin and ballroom and actually it was after one of my injuries.
00:06:51
Speaker
that I made what really was a very good decision for me. It was a hard decision to make, but to stop dancing Latin and concentrate only on ballroom. By then I was already dancing with Oscar, and I'm just really happy with my choice. Could you share a little bit more about
Impact of Jones Fracture on Dance
00:07:11
Speaker
that? I just want to better understand why the shift in the type of dance for the injury that you had.
00:07:18
Speaker
So I had a Jones fracture, or as Howard will tell us, the base of the fifth metatarsal. And it was the kind of situation where it's the kind of silence. If you have children and you come into your house, there's a particular kind of silence that lets you know that there's trouble.
00:07:37
Speaker
And he was reading my x-rays, and it was that particular kind of silence where I truly did have to wonder whether I was going to be able to dance anymore at all. And he explained to me he needed to do surgery. He needed to do surgery pretty immediately. He was going to put a screw in my foot, which he did. And the particular placement of that screw, the particular healing
00:08:01
Speaker
The process began to interfere with speed on my feet. And in Latin, speed is really important. There's a lot of spinning. There's a lot of turns, a lot of spirals. And it's not that my feet aren't really important in ballroom. They really are. That's what we stand on. That's what we dance on.
00:08:19
Speaker
And I was already emotionally beginning to make that shift anyway, but when I never could get my speed back, I mean, I was off the competition circuit for a long time because of that particular injury. And this October surgery was in November five years ago this year.
00:08:39
Speaker
And I never really could get my speed back. But it was a combination of that as well as really loving the ballroom that I was doing and really loving dancing with Oscar and making a lot of progress and just seeing that that was the direction I wanted to go. So you really saw the positive in the shift that you had to make. So is that how you were able to cope with maybe not doing as much Latin dance?
00:09:05
Speaker
It was hard. I can't say that it wasn't. I really had a lot of respect and strong positive feelings for the person I was dancing with. It was somebody different than Oscar. And we have remained friends. There are no hard feelings there. But the fall to ballroom for me is so strong.
00:09:25
Speaker
And I may not be able to convey this totally in words, but we were at the studio this morning working with our coach. And as I was leaving to, you know, packing up and leaving the studio, there was a waltz on in the studio. Other people were using the music.
00:09:44
Speaker
And it just brings me such joy to hear the music and to know that I dance to it. And training with Oscar has been incredible. I mean, the whole journey has been incredible. And he brings things out in me that I didn't think were possible. So Oscar's doing that with his training and Howard's doing that with my fractures. And it's just been a, just a remarkable experience.
Surgical Challenges and Solutions
00:10:13
Speaker
So now you mentioned your fracture. So as most folks think of fractures, they usually think of being in a cast and walking around with crutches and such, but your fracture requires surgery. So Howard, can you talk a little bit about the special nature of a Jones fracture versus the basic like fifth metatarsal like shaft fracture? Sure. So what happens is the fifth metatarsal is the bone at the base of the pinky toe that goes about halfway back of the foot and usually leaves a little knot right on the outside of the foot.
00:10:41
Speaker
Well, what happens is there's a certain portion of that bone more at the base that is a little less vascular. So if you happen to break it across the shaft at that area,
00:10:52
Speaker
it actually can disrupt the blood supply, and it's an area that historically leads to a non-union or a refracture. So that's an area that just doesn't heal well. So part of the problem is when people sprain their ankle or they roll their foot, you can actually pull a tendon off at the base of the fifth metatarsal. That actually is called an avulsion, A-V-U-L-S-I-O-N. It's a little different, but has good blood supply and does not require surgery.
00:11:19
Speaker
The problem is if you don't do the surgery on a junk's fracture, it's just a repetitive refracture scenario that just keeps recurring. It can actually happen even if you put a screw in it, but in an effort to be able to train and get back and start your rehab a lot faster, putting a screw across that area that has poor circulation actually can actually help
00:11:44
Speaker
people get better in a faster manner. You can start the process of doing your rehab a little bit better. What I will say though is I think Laura is starting in the middle of the story because prior to that we had reconstructed her ankle.
00:11:57
Speaker
you know, and she had had torn ankle ligaments, which at some point could have potentially ended a career, which it has for many athletes before. And to make the decision to go do the ankle repair and have that recover as well as it did, I think gave a little bit more confidence in when this fracture, the fifth metatarsal occurred. She trusted my opinion to be able to say, okay, let's go ahead and do this. Because again, we had about a two week block of time where we thought about doing this and uh,
00:12:26
Speaker
and then ultimately decided to do the surgery. So that said, the Jones fracture particularly is a notoriously poor healing area that does require surgery and does require a period of time non-weight bearing where the risk of refracture is certainly there. Yeah, so it sounds like there's definitely a big part of the story before this fracture. So Laura, tell me about how that happened where you actually had to have a reconstructed ankle.
Ankle Reconstruction and Recovery
00:12:55
Speaker
Sure. That happened in 2008. I was in an all-day master class with a ballroom dance couple, and I was in the fourth class, Quick Step, which is a dance I've come to love, but it's very fast.
00:13:14
Speaker
And my feet got tangled with the partner I was paired with, and it wasn't some I didn't even know him. And it really just I went straight down and just took my ankle out and Howard and I
00:13:30
Speaker
I have looked for Howard in many states. Usually when I do something pretty serious, I text him and I say, I know it's Sunday, but can I see you? And he says things like, I'm in Portland or I'm in Chicago or wherever. So then I have to see him after that. And we didn't do that surgery immediately, but we did it pretty soon after that.
00:13:54
Speaker
And I can't say I haven't ever rolled this ankle again, but it's very strong and it has supported me through my dancing since then. So coming back from, oh, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead. No, no, I was going to say to a point where she's texted me internationally through her daughter with an ankle sprain that worked that same way.
00:14:19
Speaker
So tell us about your career together, the competitions and the kind of level of performance you guys have been achieving. I know that you have done incredibly well in international program competitions and the Olympic Gay Games in Sydney, Australia. So tell us a little bit about what you guys have been doing. Go ahead. So, as you said,
00:14:42
Speaker
As a PRAM, we've been competing all around America. We always place in the finals or in the first places in the PRAM.
00:14:58
Speaker
then we did our Blackpool competition in 2019. It was the first time for Laura to compete in such a big environment. I don't know if I can give you like a little background Blackpool Dance Festival
00:15:17
Speaker
has been run for many years and that's because England is actually the place where governance started originally. And that's actually where all the couples and they meet and they compete against each other. So it's almost like a world championship. So Laura had her first time, like she finished second, right? So we got such a good result.
00:15:46
Speaker
But then the night before the competition we had a little bit of drama. She was practicing like in the ballroom. It actually happened in the morning. They only gave each competitor, each amateur competitor, 25 minutes.
00:16:06
Speaker
on the floor and the ballroom is fantastically beautiful and it's huge it's a really big floor and i have learned to move pretty well but as asker said not ever in a competition with this level of prestige and and and you know to some degree stress
00:16:26
Speaker
Anyway, so I got myself there, I got up, I got a taxi, and I went and for my, it was eight o'clock in the morning till 8.25 in the morning on the day we were going to compete, we weren't starting to compete till about six o'clock. And there was another couple. In that case, the man was the amateur and the woman was the professional. And I saw them come from the outside edge of the floor toward me.
00:16:54
Speaker
and I put out my hand gently, and they stopped, and I put out my hand again, and they stopped, and then I didn't put out my hand, and I got knocked over. And this time it was my left ankle. These other two injuries we're talking about are on my right foot. This was on my left foot, and it went straight under. And if you can think about a color that mixes the most magnificent dark purple and the most magical black,
00:17:22
Speaker
That's what happened. I knew what to do. I travel with no fewer than three compression socks and tape. Howard has taught me how to do various tapings. I don't need his job, but when he's, I'm in England and he's somewhere else. And so I went back to the hotel we were staying in. I called his wife and I said, I need you.
00:17:48
Speaker
And I found ice, which is in England, you might know, not an easy feat. They even drink their beer warm. And we made a decision to withhold the information from the most important person of the day because my ankle was, I mean, it was huge. It was all blown up. I was injured. But eventually, of course, I told him. And we danced five rounds.
00:18:17
Speaker
And, uh, we are, we are second. So, um, with Oscar of Blackpool for that year. And of course, Blackpool didn't run in 2020 and it hasn't yet run in 2021. So that's still where we are. When is it this year? It's going to be in August and of August. Yeah.
00:18:39
Speaker
Yeah, they trying to run it, but I'm not sure it's gonna happen because of this pandemic situation. Right. They've been trying last year too, but obviously the English government like ban it like and say, there's no way we can ban it.
00:18:57
Speaker
because obviously there's a lot of people coming from abroad and there's a high risk, you know, and the restrictions are still in place. So it's actually, I actually have family, I am here by myself. I actually have family in Italy and I haven't seen them for the last two
Resilience and Mental Focus in Dance
00:19:16
Speaker
years. So I'm really looking forward to see them.
00:19:19
Speaker
Yeah, that would be amazing if you could. Laura, you're a true definition of someone who can persevere from injury. So it's nice getting to talk to you about these things and how you've been able to overcome, especially during
00:19:37
Speaker
competition. So leading up to competition, what I really want to know is how do you prepare? You know, what does training look like leading up to competition and what works for you? How do you feel you're strongest going into competition? Well, I guess I'll answer first and then Oscar can add to it because our
00:19:59
Speaker
Our vision of that leads to the same ultimate point, but the road to the vision is not always the same. So for me, I'm a very willful, determined person, and I need to get my mental focus in a really good place.
00:20:20
Speaker
And we danced many dances in a row. And then we might have a short break. We might have a longer break. But at the end of the day, we're dancing four or five dances in a row. And so I work each time to rebuild up my stamina for continued movement and continued dancing.
00:20:42
Speaker
to work on performance skills. You are a nutritionist, a dietician, and I agree with Oscar, nutrition is critically important. So I'm watching what I eat. I'm very protein dependent, so making sure that I'm keeping that up in my body. The routines are the routines. They haven't changed very much in the whole time we've been together, which is seven years.
00:21:09
Speaker
Sometimes Oscar will change something really small. Other couples have a different approach. There's a lot of routine changing right before competitions, and both of us feel that that wouldn't be the best. They don't do it professionally, Oscar and his wife, and he doesn't do that with me.
00:21:29
Speaker
So there's a lot of mental preparation and a time when coordinating everything and putting it all together in one package to be able to perform it is really important.
00:21:43
Speaker
And Oscar, you've mentioned a lot earlier on when we were talking before the podcast started recording about how nutrition has been a key factor for your preparation when it comes to performing as well. I always like to stress how important nutrition is as part of the game plan. Obviously, being a dietician, I just think it's a key factor in making sure that we help decrease injury risk and keep up our stamina and can perform our best.
Nutrition and Injury Prevention
00:22:13
Speaker
Yes, definitely nutrition was a key part and it is a key part of my career or my teaching and I have to say that
00:22:26
Speaker
I really saw a big change when I started to drink three liters or more of water every day. And that really helped my body to regenerate, in a sense. And when I started to eat much more vegetables and white meats, sometimes red meat, Laura is vegetarian, so it's a different matter.
00:22:55
Speaker
and really alcohol, like non, because I felt it was kind of going against my rest.
00:23:05
Speaker
So when I was consuming, even like a beer or two, I'm not really talking about sports, but it really made a difference in my rest. And therefore if I would go and practice or I have a competition and my body would not be rested enough, I thought that that was much tougher and the risk of injury for me was much higher.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah, so nutrition was very important for me. Like a lot of chicken breasts and vegetables and yeah.
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, and definitely our carbohydrates too, right? Or just our quick fuel to help us last throughout the day. But I think also for adolescent athletes, Howard, you mentioned earlier on as well, like there are a lot of young dancers that are at risk of injury, especially for injuries below the knee because of overuse. And what kinds of advice do you give to this population?
00:24:07
Speaker
Well, one of the things that has evolved just from a nutritional standpoint that we become much more cognizant of are things like vitamin D levels.
00:24:15
Speaker
So even since Laura's injury with her foot, you know, I mean, I would say we check that much more commonly in both young elite athletes, you know, ballerinas and dancers that way, because again, many of them are not having periods on a regular basis. So what's happening is they get osteopenia, they get osteoporosis as a menopausal woman will be as well. So the nutrition becomes a key part of that factor, because what happens is
00:24:42
Speaker
if you're not eating the right diet and you have to keep your weight down and so forth the risk of overuse injuries are certainly there so you know the vitamin D levels have really become important and many more athletes are taking vitamin D supplements which historically was not the case.
00:25:01
Speaker
So with the injuries that Laura's had, and then you see the work that you have to do as far like the amount of surgery you're going to do, the fact that you have to reconstruct this ankle, obviously this is a very tough discussion to have. So from your aspect, Howard, how do you approach your patients when you have someone who's so dedicated to their craft and they have a potentially career ending injury? How do you handle that? Well, you know, part of it is really differentiating injuries.
00:25:25
Speaker
There's injuries from the difference between pain and injury is injury itself runs the risk of having more injury if you continue to compete. And that's really the mindset you have to have people understand that what ends up happening is the risk of further injury and look, foot and ankle injuries, particularly lend themselves to knee injuries, to hip injuries, to low back injuries. So what ends up happening is, you know, up the chain, if you have a foot and ankle that's not working,
00:25:54
Speaker
What ends up happening is you run the risk of higher injury. So again, in the competition that they have very early on when there's a lot of competitors, I've had many injuries from their group that
00:26:06
Speaker
couples will bump into one another and you get a nice bruise right along the side of the lateral aspect of the leg because somebody got kicked. Well, that's something that could be managed with ice, compression, things like that, and doesn't necessarily put them at further risk to go, you know, to do it. But Laura's been very good and the dancers I've worked with and her group have been very good in that we can actually teach them how to tape themselves because, look, injuries are inevitable.
00:26:32
Speaker
If you're going to compete at a high level, they're going to happen. So the question is, when is it one of those things that you have to get out of competition? And when can you actually learn how to treat yourself? So like Laura said, she has ankle braces, she has tape that she uses, you got to find the ice. Those kind of things could be managed on a day-to-day process. When it comes to things like
00:26:56
Speaker
ankle sprains or torn ankle ligaments or a ruptured tendon, those become a little more problematic. And again, trying to get people to recover from injury and teaching them what they can do versus what they can't do so that they can continue some level of competition is really good for the mindset. Because by the time they show up in my office, the concern is that they're going to be told they can't do it.
00:27:21
Speaker
And that is a difficult conversation to have. I don't care whether you're 14 years old, you're a 20-year-old professional basketball player, or you're a 50-something-year-old dancer who wants to continue doing competitions.
Role of Surgery in Athletic Recovery
00:27:34
Speaker
Obviously, those things, depending on the level and depending on the person themselves, they do become difficult conversations. What has happened, though, is the sports medicine world, and you guys would know this as well as I would,
00:27:50
Speaker
have evolved tremendously with a lot of new modalities, whether it be
00:27:54
Speaker
PRP or amniotic cell membrane stuff or shockwave therapy. There's a lot of things we can do now to expedite or at least get better results with things like surgery. So injuries themselves don't necessarily need to be career ending or activity ending. And sometimes doing the surgery is the right thing to do because what it can do is can get you back to your activity a little bit quicker because once you get shut down from your activity,
00:28:21
Speaker
there's a level of atrophy that sometimes both mentally and physically is hard to come back from you know you get your endorphin release your training for a competition you're having an issue and then suddenly you have an injury and the thought is i gotta shut this down that's emotionally draining that some people don't come back from.
00:28:38
Speaker
You know, so from, I don't, I can speak from my particular practice, but trying to be encouraging and trying to explain what we're trying to do really helps the athlete try to get back to whatever they're trying to attain. So Laura, you had, you know, Dr. Howard telling you about surgery. So how are you feeling when you first heard this and what goes through your mind and how do you grapple with this and how do you and Oscar discuss these things?
00:29:06
Speaker
Well, no. So that was a lot of questions. Almost certainly, my first response to him was, even if I can't remember, was no, no, no, no, and no, no, we're not doing that. But that's pretty short lived, because I trust him completely. I cannot stress enough how important it is to have a doctor you trust.
00:29:32
Speaker
and who doesn't have a personal agenda other than supporting my personal agenda. And that has been true. I have known Howard a long, long time because even before the injury in 2008, because I was also just fast walking in the neighborhood, it turned out I was fracturing my metatarsals all the time.
00:29:55
Speaker
I mean, and I had to make a decision at the beginning of COVID when the studio closed and I couldn't dance. I did start walking again, but I wasn't double dipping. So I cannot train the way I train in dance and fast walk simultaneously. My feet can't take that.
00:30:15
Speaker
So I had, you know, I have a lot of x-rays. Let's just put it that way. A lot of tapings and a lot of compression, whether it's compression sock or tape or any of those things.
00:30:30
Speaker
I was pretty discouraged initially about the possibility that what Howard was explaining earlier about the lack of blood flow around the base of this fifth metatarsal where this particular head where the head of the screw now lives.
00:30:50
Speaker
was just not going to recover. If I think about the work that I do with families, I can design the best program plan in the world and find the most appropriate school. And yet, I never tell parents, I'm guaranteeing that your child will do X or Y at the end of the day, and he doesn't either.
00:31:12
Speaker
So the thing about this Jones fracture is I didn't even do it on the dance floor. Oscar and I had danced the day before. We had won our competition and I was eating breakfast in the hotel restaurant the next morning before I danced Latin and I slipped off the step and I fell. And I knew it was fractured the second I did it.
00:31:34
Speaker
So I called him and I guess you were still in the hotel, but anyway, I found him and I told him what happened. And, you know, I danced on that injury as well. And then I came home and saw Howard the next day and he explained what had to be done. I do think for me, it's really important and I would like to convey to people who are going to hear this podcast.
Mental Resilience in Overcoming Injuries
00:32:04
Speaker
that not frivolous hope, but hope and faith and it can be religious faith or just spiritual faith or just trust in yourself and trust in your team, how critical that is and to keep doing whatever is possible to be doing.
00:32:23
Speaker
And I think that a lot of dancers, we know a lot of dancers who believe if they're not what I call running around the floor, that somehow they're not training or they're not practicing. And I do 50% of my dancing and my practice in my head. I do it on trains, I do it when I walk, I do it when I sit here, because there's always something to work on. So for the 2008 injury,
00:32:49
Speaker
because I didn't have a partner at the time, I worked with my coach and I learned the entire ballroom syllabus from the man's perspective. So, I mean, because that kept me alive cognitively and then eventually I could get up and I understood a little better.
00:33:07
Speaker
I work with a lot of athletes who get injured in that tip you gave about doing what you can, even if it's just visioning in your brain, like what that looks like, what your game looks like, what your routine looks like. I think that's really important. It gives them hope, but it also makes them feel like they're doing something to mentally prepare for
00:33:26
Speaker
God willing when they do get back into their sport. Because I do work with a lot of dancers that are so scared when they get injured. They're just so scared of not being able to perform the same way that they did before the injury or that they are wasting time at home or that someone's going to be ahead of them in the game when they get back. And so I think that's really great advice and hope for someone who may be struggling with something similar.
00:33:53
Speaker
Yeah, I would just take that even one step further to say that they are training. And that piece that I think not everybody understands. I don't want to say that they don't appreciate. I think they actually don't understand. And I credit Oscar not just for
00:34:12
Speaker
the program that we ended up using to train me, and I don't mean it wasn't written down, that's not how he works, but whatever it is that I could do, I mean the progression from
00:34:26
Speaker
you know, a sneaker on my left foot and a boot on my right foot, I finally would get up the steps and all I could then do, you know, is dripping wet by then and all I could do would be to sit and he would give me a minute and then I'd put my arms up and he'd be like, okay, I'm over here, okay, I'm over here, that kind of thing.
00:34:45
Speaker
And it was brilliant. And I couldn't have done it alone. I know a lot. But he knows far more. He trained from being a young child. He is the professional. And I really rely on him. And I want to say one thing and then whatever you want to say, Oscar, to fill in. But after that,
00:35:07
Speaker
We needed a plan for getting back on the competition floor because what you said is absolutely right.
Post-COVID Competition Adjustments
00:35:15
Speaker
And I feel that way even after COVID. I mean, we did two competitions at the beginning of 2019.
00:35:23
Speaker
And that was it. We've now done two competitions two years later in 2021. It is a long time to be off the field. Yeah. It's something to make him enjoy. Right. It is. It is. But one of the things that he developed, which now almost every woman in my age group, I dance in what's referred to as senior one. And soon enough, I'll be in senior two.
00:35:51
Speaker
He developed this way, you have to do a certain number of single dances for every multi-dance event you enter. That's the requirement of the competitions. But where most people were doing five dances in a row, and for me just getting back on the floor, that was exhausting.
00:36:08
Speaker
You want to say how you developed that? That we do in two different event categories, we'll do three and three, which gives me even a minute's break between the dances.
00:36:23
Speaker
And it makes all the difference in the world. A gradual warm up instead of having this sudden stress that can be not good for the body. Even emotionally, it may be not good if you start and you already get so intense, in my opinion.
00:36:43
Speaker
you know your brain stops and say okay can I do this until tonight you know I cannot do this so it was important for me like to to to to split these dances in a way that we could both like warm up gradually and you know increase the intensity like gradually
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was really important for him to be able to take, if you will, the medical information, which I conveyed. OK, Howard said I can stand in the boot, but I can't move that foot. So if I didn't have to stand, but I could stand, what did that afford us? And then he had to do something with it. And that's how I got retrained. And then eventually I came out of the boot. I mean, I was doing physical therapy the whole time.
00:37:39
Speaker
And I would encourage people to find a physical therapist who not just is a physical therapist, but who understands athletes and who understands dance. And I've had two really brilliant physical therapists in my career as an amateur dancer. And it's just so important and to really pay attention to what they're asking you to do and then actually do it.
00:38:04
Speaker
So if they tell you, you know, write the alphabet, I chose to write the alphabet backwards because it was just too boring to write it forward. But with your toes and you do it three times in the morning and three times in the evening, well then don't do it two times, do it three times.
00:38:19
Speaker
do it the number of times, but don't do it five times because that was not the prescription, that was not the program. But each time something changed and then I came out of the boot and then I could stand in a sneaker but I couldn't move in a sneaker. And then I could move in a sneaker but I couldn't actually put any weight into the foot. And that really fell to Oscar and to our, we have a coach, to our coach,
00:38:47
Speaker
to to figure out and have the gradation be so that I wouldn't get re-injured but that we were constantly training. There was a lot of patience on your end as well and it seems like in in your group and you were listening to the recommendations because that doesn't always happen. Oh I think it almost never happens. No but but understanding yeah I don't treat and make no mistake
00:39:12
Speaker
these two are athletes and treating them as I treat my NBA basketball players, as I treat my collegiate kids who have four years of eligibility and don't want to waste one recovering from injury.
00:39:23
Speaker
when you do get injured, it's a lonely experience and having a team that can be there from a mental standpoint is invaluable. I mean, whether that's your primary care doc, your, your partner in this endeavor, uh, the training team that you have and understanding what you have does help people understand. I think sometimes when people think they're just shutting me down and they're going to throw me in a boot, um, if they don't understand why and what you're trying to accomplish, I mean, to be able to,
00:39:49
Speaker
wear a boot and go through some of the dance process and not have a hip or low back injury, which again, wearing a boot on one side creates a limb length differential. One leg is longer than the other and being able to not have other injury is huge. So again, that's part of their understanding and developing a good team that way. But when people recover from injury, the biggest issue is
00:40:15
Speaker
What is the athlete trying to get out of it? These two right here are very, very serious about what they do and injuries they want to continue. Some people use the injury as an opportunity to get out of the activity in which they wanted to do. Let's go back to the young kids. Many of them are dancing because their parents want them to be dancing or they've ever done it since they were little, but are ready to move on to something else. You have to kind of read that in your athlete as well.
00:40:39
Speaker
And again, that'll be my college kids, my pro kids, the same thing that's there. But in the dance world, they are very serious athletes and make no mistake about that. So with all those kinds of problems that you've been dealing with now, what has your prevention method been like now? What kind of things do you do now to help prevent your injuries from coming back and getting yourself prepared for the competition level? How do you keep yourself at that level now?
Virtual Training Adaptations
00:41:09
Speaker
Well, one of the things that was interesting, and I shared this with Howard earlier in the year, is because, so my studio was open until March 22, 2020, when the Governor of Maryland closed everything
00:41:24
Speaker
that resembled a studio inside. So the first thing we did was we started training me at home through the computer, through Zoom and FaceTime and those kinds of things. And obviously, it wasn't the same. But again, it was almost like what Oscar said a few minutes ago. It's like almost like another injury. We had only what we had. We had one bedroom upstairs and the dining room. That's all we had. And so we could have said, well, that will never work.
00:41:54
Speaker
you know, but we did it and we did what we could. And I will say he always was a phenomenal teacher and amazing friend and partner, but his teaching has improved dramatically over this time of being in the pandemic. His eye always was terrific, but he actually couldn't afford to miss anything because he's in Rigo Park and I'm here in Washington, D.C.
00:42:22
Speaker
And I started walking again. And what I found, and I shared this with Howard, is that my ankles actually got stronger. And that was not something I counted on because it had never been true in the past, but they did get stronger. And I noticed then when the studio was allowed to reopen and Oscar could come down again, that I just one day didn't put my compression socks on during lessons and my ankles were really fine.
00:42:50
Speaker
The other thing I want to add is that the better my technique, the less chance of injury. And so if I'm monitoring where my foot placement is, if I am monitoring where, how vertical I am when I need to be, then I reduce the risk of injury.
Proprioception in Injury Recovery
00:43:13
Speaker
To that point, there's a study out of Stanford University from 2015 that basically said that a 72% improvement in proprioception is the nerves around the periphery of an ankle or any joint that your brain can recognize the position actually reduced ankle sprains 81%, low back pain 78%, and knee sprain 65%.
00:43:41
Speaker
So when you are coming from an ankle injury, not only do you need the ligaments and tendons to work, but you need the small nerve fibers that actually help your body get a sense of feel. So the way we recover people after ankle injuries and often gets lost in the rehab is when you are, when you want to stand on one leg, it's one thing to stand with your eyes open where you can focus. But once you close your eyes and your brain has to recognize body position, that instability
00:44:11
Speaker
creates a whole multitude of problems where potential injuries can occur. So yes, we can make ligaments better. Yes, we can make tendons better. But the only way to restore some of that sensation is to get that proprioception better. So when you had time off and things got a chance to heal, yes, the ligaments got stronger. But you also were able to restore some of the sensorium, the sensation around the periphery, so your body could recognize position better.
00:44:37
Speaker
So with the average person having a lower extremity injury or foot injury, what kind of exercises do you usually prescribe for them to help them get better faster or help prevent injury in the future? So particularly ankle sprains is what I use as a guide.
00:44:52
Speaker
So because that's the most common dance injury, obviously basketball and things like that as well. But so what happens is you want to rehabilitate the ankle ligaments. So that is strengthening exercises. Remember that ligaments do not have any muscular attachment. So they attach bone to bone where it's very difficult unless you give them time to heal for them to heal. So you strengthen the muscles around it.
00:45:15
Speaker
One-legged calf raises you turn and face the wall with your toe perpendicular to the wall and do sets of 15 on one leg So you do all the way up all the way down? But then restoring the sensation around the perfor the ankle joint is also valuable So what we have people do is try to stand on one foot for 10 to 15 seconds with their eyes open So you'll do the left foot then the right foot and the left foot in the right foot once they graduate We have them close their eyes
00:45:41
Speaker
And once they close their eyes, now the body has to get a sense of position without being able to focus with their eyes. And then as we get into higher elite, more elite athletes, you could put them on things like wobble boards, you know, these balanced ankle platform systems where basically they have to learn how to stabilize themselves where the ground is not stable and it's, it's uneven that way. So those are the things we graduate to. So we want to strengthen them and we want to get, you know, restore some of the sensation around the periphery.
00:46:14
Speaker
And does your regiment nowadays, Laura, have these kinds of things you're always doing just for your ankles and feet?
00:46:19
Speaker
I do toe raises, as Howard was saying. I can balance on either foot for well longer than a minute. I practice that absolutely every day. And I have just, I train not just with Oscar, but with his wonderful wife, Lenka. And she is now having me move to the next level of that one-legged balance, but in my dance heels.
00:46:46
Speaker
So I dance in two inch heels. And then to add, I know you can't really see this gesture, but with one arm out, with the other arm out, and then eventually in dance position. But mostly I just put my body parts under strict orders to behave. I would like to avoid any future, like major injury.
00:47:10
Speaker
And again, I think in part that's about better technique and all of the other ways that I, you know, again, as both of you were saying, Oscar and Yasi, the nutrition, I think is so important and training, and training well. So, Howard, I have a random question for you.
00:47:34
Speaker
And I think this kind of falls in line with ballroom dance because shoes are very different and different types of dancing, right? So can we kind of talk a little bit about how to stretch for the different types of footwear that you might wear in dance?
00:47:50
Speaker
Again, I know this is a little random, but I do a lot of heels dance classes. And I think that there's not enough stretching time that's given to dancers before going into activity. I've seen it in, you know, like the dance intensives. They're not really giving dancers stretching time these days. Is stretching important? Stretching is one of the things that's somewhat controversial.
00:48:14
Speaker
because what happens is you want to have good flexibility to reduce injury. The problem is when you're dancing in heels, when you are fully stretched out, one of the things that happens is the calf muscles get elongated. So when you're dancing in heels, one of the things that makes your calves look great is actually tight heels. So people have what they call equinus, where their heel doesn't quite get all the way down to the ground. And when you're dancing in your heels, your calves are full.
00:48:42
Speaker
but you need the muscle strength to be able to do it. So in that time, depending on the type of heel that you might be dancing in, whether it's a stiletto, whether it's a block heel, there's different types of shoes that are that way as well, that you don't want to overstretch. There's also some thoughts that overstretching reduce performance so that you can stretch afterwards versus before. And again, there's studies that'll show you both ways. So it is somewhat controversial. People who have had a history of Achilles tendonitis,
00:49:12
Speaker
perineal tendonitis, which is the tendon that goes down the outside of the foot. I have, I do have them stretch ahead of time because you do want to reduce the risk of injury as best you can by just taking some of the tension off. So, um, but when you, when you are going through that and you're going through the different types of shoes, you want to make sure that you're using a little compression afterwards. You're using ice because you want to reduce some of the strain to the muscle belly itself. A lot of these competitions require you to dance multiple times a day.
00:49:42
Speaker
So nothing like dancing in a pair of two inch heels and then walking around in a pair of flats and then trying to go back to a pair of two inch heels, all of that runs the risk of having that different height can cause a lot of strain. So whether it's hamstring, whether it's calf, whether it's ankle, those things. So trying to look, what are the things I've learned as far as in trying to treat athletes is trying to learn the disciplines in which they do. You know, we as medical professionals, unless you're a dancer, don't know all what's involved.
00:50:11
Speaker
When you're doing gymnastics, you don't know what's all involved.
00:50:13
Speaker
So what happens is learning the disciplines that these people have to go through, help you guide what they should and should not be doing. So important. Right.
Cross-Training for Young Athletes
00:50:22
Speaker
So important. Now, what kind of advice would you give parents because obviously they're part of the care team too. So when they come, when their kids are coming in and they're at risk of injury, are there any things that you are having parents or maybe even resources that come to mind for you? Like what can we share with parents and what should they be looking out for, for a dancer that may be at risk of
00:50:43
Speaker
an injury. Well, one of the things about young kids, and again, there's a lot of overuse, whether you're a soccer player with your dancer, whether you're a basketball player, is they tend not to cross train. Right. So they do the same repetitive activities again and again and again. So trying to get them to be multi-sport athletes, I think is important. You know what, trying to talk to a parent about whose kid is going to get a basketball scholarship
00:51:07
Speaker
or is going to get a dance scholarship, you know, they're part of a marching band or they're, you know, that there's a lot cheerleaders, whatever it ends up being. And so trying to get their mentality, they have to understand.
00:51:18
Speaker
that if all they're doing is the same activity again and again and again, and they're not cross-training, they're running the risk of developing some muscles and not others. The other thing that happens is growth plate injuries in kids, that is, you know, in girls it's 14 to 16 theoretically, boys 16 to 18, you know, they still have growth plates. Some of these kids are going through rapid growth in short periods of time where they're getting a lot of overuse injuries just because their long bones are growing fast and the muscles and tendons haven't had a chance to catch up.
00:51:48
Speaker
So trying to talk to the parents, a lot of it is the kids are not just complaining that their feet hurt or their ankles hurt or their knees hurt. There's actually a medical reason as to why. So sometimes shutting them down for short periods of time and cross-training them can be a very valuable tool. So again, going back to what we had reiterated before, what can you do, not what can't you do?
00:52:11
Speaker
You know, so sometimes actually stopping the repetitive use problem in a kid and getting them to do something different can actually be very helpful. And one of the trickiest things in the world is to tell a dancer to not dance. So what's the asker and Laura, what's next for you guys as far as competition?
Upcoming Dance Competitions
00:52:32
Speaker
We're going to go to California soon. We have an embassy. It's a very big competition like
00:52:42
Speaker
at the national level, yeah. And we'll dance capital here locally in Alexandria the week before that. So we're preparing for it, yeah. Nice. And are there any major adjustments to how the competitions are being run now because of COVID? Oh, well.
00:53:03
Speaker
I have to say, as soon as we started, they lifted the mask requirements, so it didn't feel so awkward. But still the numbers are not back yet, so there's not as many people as before. And what I could notice is that I could see the difference between
00:53:29
Speaker
last year before pandemic and now because a lot of people they have not been dancing and you can see the level is it's kind of lower some people because in Florida and in Texas they
00:53:44
Speaker
They had events anyway with the pandemic. I'm not going to go there because it's more a political reason or stuff. And so some of them had disadvantage. So I could see like some of them, they've been dancing a lot. Because even if you train and practice, I think that performance is really a key.
00:54:07
Speaker
And when you don't perform for more than a year and a half, it takes a while to get back. And, you know, to get back to this hunger and this willingness of doing good and endorphins and excitement.
00:54:26
Speaker
because in the studio like in the competition is never like in the studio in the studio in the studio it's easy without stress without other couples around with your own people you know checking on you you have second chances but the comp is a
00:54:42
Speaker
It's like the show must go on and everything you need to go through, every single detail and stuff. And plus you have judges at the side of the floor, you have public, you have your partner, your teacher, you have like a gown, a big gown that somehow changes your feeling of the partner. There's a lot of things to go through. Yeah, and competitors, of course. There's other people that maybe you dance
00:55:10
Speaker
You know, one competition you beat them, the other competition they beat you. So there's this competitiveness and that also creates stress, you know, because you want to do well. Yeah. And I imagine now with, you know, after quarantine and going back into competition, it's like we have to get used to what social life looks like again and how to smile the way that we used to smile and perform the way we
Passion for Ballroom Dance
00:55:33
Speaker
used to perform. And so I'm sure just like a little bit of of getting back out there and
00:55:39
Speaker
Not only does it feel amazing to probably get back out there, but just adjusting a little bit to the new normal, right? Can you both tell me, Oscar and Laura, what your favorite thing about ballroom dances? Because I think it's so important to also get the essence out there. I know.
00:55:55
Speaker
And I can tell the passion you both have for this, Oscar, it sounds like in addition to the dancer that you are, you're a great teammate and you have been so patient with Laura and it seems like she's made a big impact in her life just from what she's expressed to us. And Laura, I can tell how much dance means to you and even through your injuries.
00:56:18
Speaker
It means the world to you to always be out there and performing. I want to know. I want the essence. I want to know what you guys both love about this form of dance and what you want listeners to know about it.
00:56:35
Speaker
tough question. I'm happy to go. I'm happy to go. But I always, you know, invite him, you know, that's the nice thing to do. He can go first. So a big lesson from my ballroom dancing career was that I
00:56:52
Speaker
I really learned how to understand women and how to dance with another person in front of me together as one unit. What I love about bottom dancing is
00:57:10
Speaker
the flow of movement, the power of moving with the music with another person in front of you. And somehow, like, you know, bottom dancing, we call it standard, is a little bit
00:57:25
Speaker
misunderstood because we need to hold a certain form while we're dancing so there's not open open position like in a Latin when you have more freedom and you need to have a special like form and frame you know and the lady needs to have a special shape but personally I really think this
00:57:49
Speaker
not as a restriction but as it's beautiful to feel when you dance with another person and you're powerful and you release this wind, this feeling of wind when you move your weight.
00:58:01
Speaker
with a nice piece of music. And we have like five dances, so we have a waltz, we have the tango, we have the Viennese waltz, we have a slow foxtrot and a quickstep that they all have different characters. So there's a different, somehow there's a different feeling of a waltz, maybe it's a little bit more melancholic and then the tango maybe is a little bit more passionate and violent, let's say.
00:58:29
Speaker
They all have different characters and that's what I love. I love the movement, I love to move with my partner, with the music and feel powerful and feel free. It's about this form that I have.
00:58:46
Speaker
So much energy in every move, right, in every movement. Yeah, I like the energy. So I feel like ballroom just always tells a story. That's the sense that I always got. Laura, can you please share your favorites? I can.
00:59:04
Speaker
My feelings about her are similar in some ways to Oscars. But for me, it is the sort of the essence of beauty that has music associated with it. I really love the structure of the frame. I like that there isn't the sort of you're together, you're apart, you're together, you're apart, which is true for Latin. It's also true for smooth.
00:59:32
Speaker
American Smooth, but to me it is the beauty captured of the emotion of it, the movement of it, and the beauty of it all together. And to me, I can speak about each one of those parts separately, but I feel them as a whole unit when we dance.
00:59:54
Speaker
And I can't say that I've always loved dance, that I can say. But I can say that dancing with Oscar has helped me love what he calls the wind. We call it flying. And it has been, to some degree, a challenge for me. He's very powerful. He's patient. He's caring. He's an amazing teacher. He's a brilliant dancer.
01:00:24
Speaker
But his flight, still as recently as this morning, takes me off guard. So I really love learning to love the movement.
01:00:36
Speaker
The music is very powerful. I do like that each dance has its own character and the opportunity to express it. And then I think for every woman who's listening to this or who will listen to the podcast to have my hair done and have the makeup on and to be in these amazing stoned ball gowns, you know, it just makes me feel just so beautiful.
01:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Now, Howard, I don't want to leave you out of this conversation. Oh, no, no, I get this vicariously. Don't get me wrong. I mean, my athletes, I do not. Howard, do you dance? I do not. OK. But well, but it's the funny thing is, again,
01:01:20
Speaker
when athletes come to me and they have a competition they are training for and they are able to compete at the best level they can do, I get many texts. Laura brings me a gift, whether it be cupcakes or wine and anniversary of every surgery she's had.
01:01:36
Speaker
And I get photos of her in her gowns. I mean, so twice a year, but you've sent pictures of stuff in your gown having completed the competition and said second in the world. I mean, to me, when my patients can climb a mountain peak and they get to the top of the mountain peak and they send pictures of the Dolomites, that's why getting people to do things like this is the most fun of what my job is.
Support in Injury Recovery
01:02:02
Speaker
And again, getting back to you were talking about children before,
01:02:06
Speaker
When kids want to compete, when someone gets a college scholarship or someone can compete at the college level, when I knew they had an injury in high school, that's huge. No, I don't do it anymore. I'm 58 years old and there's not a lot of competitions left for me, but I wrestled all four years of college. I understand the mentality in that and basically how people try to get themselves ready to prepare for an event, whether it's a tournament or whether it's that way. When they do well, I feel like I've done well.
01:02:36
Speaker
I mean, I can sense the passion in all of you. You guys all have so much passion. Well, when I got asked to do the podcast and they said, okay, athletes in the arts, I had one athlete in mind. So, you know, when I talked to, you know, Dr. Core and I talked to Alex who put, you know, put this together for AAPSM, you know, the bottom line was, you know, I know the people and the passion of what it takes to get from just competing to competing at the highest level.
01:03:03
Speaker
very inspirational. It makes it all worthwhile. All the work you put in as a doctor, all the work you guys put in as dancers and performers and coming back from these injuries you've had. So many great stories, so many great points and tidbits from this conversation. I want to thank you all for being here with us today. This has been a wonderful conversation, a great episode. Thank you, Oscar. Thank you, Laura. Thank you, Howard, for being here today. And it was just so wonderful hearing everyone's story. This
01:03:28
Speaker
This is a beautiful journey. And the takeaway I want to just say from this whole thing is that even you need to have a great support system when you experience injury. But even if you have experienced an injury, as long as you have that support system, you have that passion, it is possible to get back. Thank you so much for having us. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.
01:03:50
Speaker
And Yasi, of course, thank you so much for being my co-host as well. Of course, thank you. Well, that wraps up this episode. For everyone listening, we thank you so much for listening in. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to our podcast and you'll get our newest episode set out to you automatically. For Yasi Ansari, this is Stephen Karaginas, and you've been listening to the Athletes in the Arts podcast.