Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
From Maroon 5 to a Renewed Life: Ryan Dusick's Story
152 Plays1 year ago
Sponsored by School Health: https://www.schoolhealth.com
Yasi and Steven talk with Ryan Dusick, the founding drummer of Maroon 5 and now licensed therapist and life coach in Los Angeles. He went from being a Little League baseball phenom to drummer for the world's hottest rock band before injuries and mental illness forced him out of music. He spent a decade suffering from substance abuse and crippling anxiety. How he recovered, found redemption, and discovered a new calling is detailed in his book "Harder To Breathe: A Memoir of Making Maroon 5, Losing It All, and Finding Recovery."
Ryan's website is www.ryandusick.com
Ryan's instagram is @ryan_michael_dusick
Find Ryan's book here: www.amazon.com/Harder-Breathe-Memoir-Finding-Recovery/dp/1637742339
Bio: Ryan Dusick is a registered associate marriage & family therapist and life coach with a BA from UCLA and an MA in Clinical Psychology from Pepperdine University. Ryan brings his unique journey as a successful creative person in recovery, as well as his many years of education and professional experience, to clients seeking help with their personal challenges. Ryan prefers to think of his work as a collaboration, in which he and his client work together to discover creative ways of addressing their issues, tailoring therapy to the distinctive needs of each individual.
As a life coach, Ryan brings his background of success in the fields of music, literature, and mental health advocacy. His work both as an individual and in creative collaboration lends itself well to fostering the talents and ambitions of other creative people looking for help and advice in finding their way.
Ryan brings compassion to those suffering through their mental health challenges, and believes his very purpose in life is to offer support, insight, and helpful guidance to each of his clients on their journey from struggling to thriving. He looks forward to working with you as you begin your passage to a life of fulfillment and purpose.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Promotion
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Athletes in the Arts podcast, hosted by Stephen Karaginas and Yasi Ansari.
00:00:19
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Athletes and the Arts. For Gossia and Sari, I'm Stephen Karaginas. We have a really cool show for you today. So if you like what you hear, please feel free to subscribe, leave a review, tell some friends, spread the word. But if you want more information on performing arts medicine, please go to our website at www.athletesandthearts.com. There you'll find all sorts of resources and links to help you out.
00:00:47
Speaker
You can also find information on our new sponsor, School Health, the leading national full service provider of health supplies and services for school-based health professionals. Please go to www.schoolhealth.com for your scholastic healthcare needs. All right, so our show today is really special.
Ryan Dusick's Journey from Athlete to Rockstar
00:01:06
Speaker
We have talked before about musicians who go from the pinnacle of success to the depths of despair from achieving their wildest dreams to living their worst nightmare.
00:01:15
Speaker
Now, sometimes these stories have sad endings, but in this case, the story is one of triumph, success, and renewed purpose in life. This is the story of Ryan Dusick, one of the founding members and drummer for Maroon 5. He started out as a hot high school baseball prospect, but when Maroon 5 released their debut album, Songs About Jane, in 2002, he suddenly found himself the drummer for the hottest band on earth, and this is no exaggeration.
Struggles and Memoir: Harder to Breathe
00:01:44
Speaker
With hit songs like This Love, Sunday Morning, She Would Be Loved, and The Harder to Breathe, Maroon 5 sold 10 million copies of their album and toured all over the world for the next several years.
00:01:56
Speaker
but the constant touring took a toll on Ryan and he left the band in 2006. His subsequent struggles, both physically and mentally, are detailed in his memoir, Harder to Breathe, which came out in November of 2022. It's a gripping account of his life, his friendship with Adam Levine and his Maroon 5 bandmates, his struggles after leaving the band, and way more. But most importantly, it details his recovery and laid the groundwork for his work today as a counselor, life coach, and therapist.
00:02:25
Speaker
It's truly inspiring and I encourage everyone to check it out. But in the meantime, we get to have Ryan joining us today. So Ryan, thank you so much for being on the Athletes in the Arts podcast this evening. Thank you so much for having me on.
00:02:40
Speaker
Well, I know you have a very long and interesting history about music and mental health work, but one of the things I wanted to talk about first with you, because I know your background started out with the band Maroon 5, and you guys were a big success right off the bat with your first big release, but in most cases, people think that a band just shows up and they're a hit, and that's all it is that's that easy. But it sounds like you guys have a really difficult time at first trying to break in and have some failure along the way.
00:03:09
Speaker
So can you talk a little bit about that?
Early Challenges and Breakthrough of Maroon 5
00:03:11
Speaker
Yeah, I like to refer to us as the overnight success that took a decade. Because we started the band when we were teenagers in my parents' garage in 1994 when I was 16 years old. And we were just a bunch of idiots dreaming of being rock stars. And we actually got pretty good pretty quick. And we were playing around town here in LA playing on the Sunset Strip.
00:03:39
Speaker
And we got a record deal right out of high school and we thought okay well we're I mean that's the way you it starts you know you just you get a record deal and then you become big stars and right but everyone was telling us that and they they spent a ton of money on making a record and a video and putting us out there and
00:04:00
Speaker
But we hadn't foreseen that there was the possibility, of course, that it would flop. And that's what happened. And so at age 20, I had a failed record deal under my belt already.
00:04:16
Speaker
at the right old age of 2021 has been in the music industry. So, you know, it was a weird reality to face that as much as precocious as we were, as much as we had going for us very early on in our career, that there would be a setback like that, which we have to really pause and ask ourselves, is this going to work? Are we going to keep going for a moment there? We didn't know if the band would keep going as it was before that.
00:04:45
Speaker
So do you think that because you're so young with that failure, you actually have probably has some sort of advantage there versus like if you were like in your 30s and you flop to be like, oh my gosh, you know, more of a midlife crisis kind of thing versus 20 years old, it's like, hey, I can, what the hell, I'll just do whatever I want and just go for it again. Yeah, I definitely look back at that as being really a fortunate thing that we had that experience as young as we did.
00:05:13
Speaker
Certainly when you're talking about popular music, there is definitely a point at which you get over a certain age and it's less and less likely that you're going to have that breakthrough.
The Stress of Success
00:05:24
Speaker
It seems like it's getting younger and younger too. You see these kids that are 13 years old and already it's like, if you don't have your Disney
00:05:34
Speaker
You're not going to go on to be a pop star. But for us, I think being a band and everything, we had a round two in our 20s and we had learned a lot the first time around, both in the successes we'd had in terms of just being in a big studio and working with a big producer and having all of that experience going out on the road, and also learning from the disappointments and the failures and what not to do or how to do it better the next time around.
00:06:04
Speaker
So you had a quote that's actually mentioned in the Wikipedia about the band, about between the time that you started making the album, Songs About Jane, and the time you reached the crest of your success, you went from being starving musicians, wondering what the future held, to writing a wave of success beyond our wildest expectations. So what was the kind of, like how did you guys handle that stress? I mean, that's kind of success. It seems like it's gonna be obviously very thrilling and positive, but obviously it seems to come with a lot of negatives too.
00:06:34
Speaker
Yeah, and you know, when you're in the middle of it, it's a whirlwind, but you're right at the eye of the storm, you know, so you don't have a whole lot of objectivity. We were on the road for essentially four years in support of the album songs about Jane from 2002, three, four, five, you know, it was nonstop, like on tour after another. It was just the album cycle that never ended.
00:07:00
Speaker
one, you know, a good problem to have. We had hit single after hit single. I was gonna say I'm still hearing the songs on the radio, so it's, and it still reminds you of really special moments in your life, so I think your songs are still making an impact even today. That is amazing, and having a book out and talking about this stuff, I have people reach out to me, you know, and
00:07:22
Speaker
having been in that bubble and then away from it for a long time, it's so amazing to hear people tell me that. This album or this song was really meaningful to me when I was eight years old, and it's 20 years later now. And that always kind of fills me up and makes me realize that it was, even though for me it ended in a slightly tragic way,
00:07:45
Speaker
It wasn't all for naught. It was a worthy venture that I look back on with gratitude now.
00:07:53
Speaker
But at the time, to answer your question, it was a lot, and we all dealt with the stress of it in our own ways. I, of course, dealt with it probably the least well. Over the course of a few years there, I had a breakdown, which was not something that happened overnight. It was something that happened over a long period of time.
00:08:15
Speaker
And it was a physical breakdown as well as, as I understand it now, an emotional and psychological breakdown as well.
Physical and Mental Exhaustion of Touring
00:08:25
Speaker
So obviously I didn't deal with it as well as I could. I did the best I could at the time knowing what I knew then and with the coping skills that I had. But I think that being in the middle of that
00:08:37
Speaker
that level of demand on you for that extended period of time, it would be taxing on anyone. It's just an inherently sort of unbalanced lifestyle. What do you think is, like, what are the reasons that make it imbalanced? Like, I think it's something that I think about is this was what, three to four years of touring for the album. So during that time, what are some of the challenges that the
00:09:06
Speaker
the band may have faced that could have contributed to some of the mental health struggles? Well, there were kind of two different phases in terms of what the demands were. For the first two years in 02 and 03, we played over 500 shows just in those two years. And that was, you know, on the way up. That was before we were a headlining act. You know, we were driving ourselves around the country in a passenger van.
00:09:36
Speaker
with all of our gear and a U-Haul behind us.
00:09:40
Speaker
And, you know, the 500 shows was not, it doesn't even really do it justice in terms of how much was on our plate because there was all of the promotional stuff as well, you know, doing radio station appearances and record store, in-store appearances when that was still a thing. And photo shoots and video shoots and meet and greets and then, you know, the hours of travel and,
00:10:07
Speaker
uh so it really was it was exhilarating it was exciting it was what we wanted to be doing but it was also exhausting and you know just when you think okay maybe we'll have a little bit of a reprieve
00:10:22
Speaker
oh, we got another tour and we have to go right into the next tour. And it just wouldn't end. And so that was one aspect of what was stressful was that on the way up the mountain was just saying yes to everything and rolling from one tour into the next and literally just like sometimes rolling out of the row in the van, brushing your teeth,
00:10:50
Speaker
with a water bottle in the parking lot of some radio station and pulling out your acoustic equipment and going and doing a performance and then going back in trying to catch some more Z's before you go to soundcheck for the show that night. You know, just a really crazy existence. But then there was round two. Once we had kind of made a name for ourselves and we were reaching the top of the mountain where we had the tour bus and we had a hit single and a gold record.
00:11:20
Speaker
Now it was an international affair, you know, and it was jet set and it was longer hours of travel sometimes and, you know, later nights, you know, the shows as a headliner are longer and they're later in the night and you're up until four in the morning just kind of riding the wave of that adrenaline and then having to sometimes
00:11:44
Speaker
wake up early in the morning and do something early in the morning, or other times, there's just a lot of the days sleeping into the afternoon and rolling out of your bunk and going to sound check. And then more downtime. When you're playing an arena, sometimes you're just sitting in a locker room for hours killing time, and then all of a sudden you have to get up and perform as your most dynamic self in front of 20,000 people. Or you're having to do interviews all day in a dressing room, in the locker room,
00:12:14
Speaker
and then have to kind of like still maintain that level of energy until after the show. And then all you want to do is kind of blow off some steam because it's hard to come down from all that. So it's a slightly different level of stimuli or context for it, but equally stressful.
Perfectionism and Imposter Syndrome
00:12:33
Speaker
And for me, it was kind of the intersection of, because I was somebody who put a lot of pressure on myself.
00:12:40
Speaker
And there was that internal pressure that came from perfectionism, performance anxiety, imposter syndrome. Because I was a self-taught drummer. I wasn't like a guy who had gone to Juilliard and learned how to play with proper technique or anything. I was a garage rocker. And so going out there, it was fine when we were playing with other garage bands.
00:13:04
Speaker
now you're playing with big pop acts and you have other musicians who are at the top of the field. And so inherently I felt like maybe I didn't belong there and I was going to be found out or not going to be able to hack it. And that can be a bit of a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy when you ruminate on those negative outcomes a lot.
00:13:26
Speaker
So one of the things we've discussed on the show before with other musicians is like the expectation versus lifestyle of the professional musician, especially very successful musicians, the rocks, the rock star lifestyle. So did you find like, during that period of time that, you know, there was there a pressure from others to live that lifestyle and be more of that kind of
00:13:51
Speaker
music idol or do you find that just the mere existence of the schedule and touring drives people into that lifestyle? How would you put your experience into those terms? Well, it's interesting because it does creep up on you a little bit. It's insidious because I grew up in the 1980s watching
00:14:15
Speaker
MTV and Headbangers Ball and all my favorite hair bands where the image they projected was this lifestyle of total debauchery and just, you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll. And I was both excited by that prospect, but a little intimidated by it at the same time. My nature, I'm kind of an introvert by nature, and I'm not a homebody. I'm not really somebody who was out there partying hard.
00:14:43
Speaker
And quite the contrary, actually, as a teenager, I didn't drink at all. And I was late to the game in that regard. So the first time we went on the road in 1997, it was a slightly different world. And I was actually surprised that it wasn't as crazy as I imagined it to be. And even in 2002, when we were touring as Maroon 5, I was kind of impressed by some of the bigger acts that we opened for.
00:15:12
Speaker
the Cheryl Crows and the Matchbox 20s and these kind of established acts that were playing the arenas that we were opening for them in. And what was impressive to me was that they had been around the block and it was clear to me that they were there because they had a work ethic.
00:15:30
Speaker
you know, and backstage a lot of times it was, it was babies and strollers and nannies more than it was fish bowls of cocaine and Jet Daniel. So it was a slightly different thing than I had the sort of mental image of, but at the same time, I will say that, um, you know, the long hours, the level of stress that you're under, um, the need to sort of blow off some steam and the extent to which you are enabled in certain ways, because the lifestyle does allow it more than
00:16:00
Speaker
You can't really walk into a lot of jobs being extremely hungover or drunk, whereas if you're a little tipsy and you walk on stage, nobody's really complaining that much, unless you're really messing up. So there is this sort of insidious nature where it seems like, well, I'm a little
00:16:18
Speaker
I wound up a little tight, let's just have a shot before we go on stage, or the adrenaline's still going and we have a day off tomorrow. Let's just tie one on and blow off some steam and have a party.
00:16:32
Speaker
on a night that you wouldn't normally if you had a normal job. So it was a weird combination of both of those factors. And I think it did become, even though it felt like we were relatively mild in our party life, that you fast forward a couple of years and your life does look a little bit different than it did when you started. So Ryan, I know when it comes to, you know, I work with, I counsel a lot of athletes and we primarily work with nutrition and
00:17:01
Speaker
eating enough for their sport. And then when things get stressful, we'll talk coping strategies that they're working on with a mental health professional. So for you guys during that time, were there any strategies that anyone was talking about? What did those look like, if it's appropriate to talk about?
Mental Health Awareness in the Music Industry
00:17:18
Speaker
But also just what did you lean on to get that support that you needed to keep going?
00:17:25
Speaker
Well, you have to remember this was 20 years ago, which, you know, it doesn't sound like that long ago, but if you think about it in terms of how much the world has changed in that time.
00:17:35
Speaker
And you open up social media now and you see people talking about mental health and about wellness and about finding your best life and giving you tools of how to do that and encouraging therapy and things that are helpful in that regard, meditation. Those were not conversations that were happening in 2002, three, four, at least not in the circles that I was in.
00:18:03
Speaker
We had, there were guys in the band that were into meditation and into a certain level of wellness. However, we were also guys, you know, in our early to mid 20s and just kind of wanting to have an extended college life, I think. We weren't grownups yet, you know.
00:18:24
Speaker
immature, very mature in some ways, and I think precocious in terms of our artistry. And we took our craft seriously, we took our performance seriously, but at the same time, immature in other ways. And we were communicative beyond a lot of bands in terms of how we were supportive of one another, but also still boys, you know, and with all of the hang ups that you imagine in terms of
00:18:50
Speaker
the macho mentality or not allowing yourself to be vulnerable in certain contexts. And so I think that to answer your question, there weren't a whole lot of coping skills that were healthy ones. When I look back, I think, you know, the instructions we were given to go out into the world and conquer it were, you know, present yourself well on stage, put on a good show, schmooze with the fans in the fan club and be charming in your interviews.
00:19:20
Speaker
And essentially they gave us some media training, what to talk about, what not to talk about when there's a camera in your face. And that was helpful in terms of how to create a brand. But I look back on it, it's like, well, it would have been equally if not more helpful for someone to sit us down and talk to us about here are the stresses and strains that are gonna arise in this lifestyle. Everyone hits the wall at a certain point. How do you avoid burnout? How do you avoid breaking down
00:19:49
Speaker
mentally, physically, and what are some tools that could be helpful, and how do you support one another in the process of this crazy venture that you're all going on together? Even family therapy, I think, would have been helpful for us, because it's just you and your crew out there, long days, long weeks, long months on a tour, and it turns into a few years of your life,
00:20:17
Speaker
And you need to lean on one another, and you need to be able to feel like you have an outlet. So for us, we had fun together, and we tried to be there for each other. But I certainly felt like I bottled a lot of things up. I didn't express things that were going on for me. And there was that tendency to just kind of, as I said, blow off steam. It's like, I'm feeling stressed out. Let's go have some beers. Or for the pot smokers, do their thing.
00:20:46
Speaker
And there wasn't a whole lot of thought about what was the healthiest approach to do that. Right. And I feel, I feel like in your twenties, right, when all this is starting up, it's a really exciting time. You know, you don't want to slow down yet. You're scared that if you slow down, I don't know, the next band is going to come through and take the spot. So there's just so many, I feel like mental stressors too, that keep someone from wanting to slow down and give themselves what they need during that time.
00:21:15
Speaker
Yeah, we had gotten a lot of instruction and advice, good advice from a business standpoint, to say yes to everything on your first album. And if you're having success, write that as far as you can, because that's going to establish your career. And if you say yes to all those offers and you go out there and you give it your all,
00:21:40
Speaker
Now you've created relationships and you've built a fan base and when you come back around on your second and third album, all those people are going to be there waiting for you to support you. But if you say no and you don't do that extra tour or that extra gig or that extra, you know, TV appearance or whatever is being offered you, now you've burned a bridge or you've lost an opportunity and they're not going to ask again.
00:22:05
Speaker
So it was good advice from that standpoint in terms of building a brand and building a career that's sustainable. But it's terrible advice from a wellness standpoint because I would tell my clients the opposite now.
00:22:21
Speaker
prioritize, figure out what's really important and what's not as important. And creating balance in your life is equally essential to the sustainability of your life and career, as is doing everything you can to build your business. So there wasn't any of that thought. I remember saying to our manager several times, like, I'm really worn down. I need a break.
00:22:52
Speaker
Physically, my arm was hurting. Just my whole constitution was feeling really exhausted. And it was like, well, it's all going to pay off. Trust me, it's all going to pay off. Now we got to go to Asia. Now we got to go to Australia. Now we got to promote the next single and do another video and just stick with it. It's only going to be another year or two.
00:23:16
Speaker
Well, that's interesting too, because that's one of the things that when you watch biopics and you talk to other musicians and interviews, it seems like in most of your situations with the success you have, I mean, maybe like how much control do you have in your career at that phase? Because yeah, you don't really know the business yet. So as you said, say yes and follow along.
00:23:41
Speaker
But sometimes you may want to do something differently. And in some places, sometimes you want to have time off or a little bit of a break. But it sounds like either the train is like just going so fast, you have to keep up on it or, um, you know, you're not the conductor or like, um, do you guys find that it's difficult to handle that situation when you give up control to others? Well, it definitely does become a train that, that, that gets away from you at a certain point.
00:24:10
Speaker
When we were just playing around town in LA growing up and building a name locally, we had a lot of control. I, in particular, being the type A control freak in the band and the oldest member and the guy with the car when we started the band, I was the one that was booking the gigs and doing the mailing list and trying to be on top of everything. That felt like
00:24:37
Speaker
a certain level of control over the outcome of things. Once you have a team in place and you have a product out there to promote, it's not just you guys anymore. And it's not even just your manager. It's the record label and it's the promotional team.
00:24:54
Speaker
And it's, you know, it's, it's at a certain point is, you know, it's golden voice or live nation or, you know, one of those huge corporations who would sue you if you are in breach of contract or if you cancel the tour or something. So there's, there's a, there's a train that gets going where, yeah, you don't really have a whole lot of say anymore or feeling of control. And, uh, that was probably looking back on it equally difficult for me.
00:25:21
Speaker
being that control freak, being somebody who was kind of obsessive compulsive, and that was one of my coping mechanisms, feeling like that control was slipping from my grasp more and more. And it was like, I just had to show up and try to get through it. But there was really no way for me to hold up my hands and say, no, I can't do it. So it was, again, it wasn't something that happened in one night. It didn't happen on one tour. It was something that,
00:25:51
Speaker
I felt it a little bit and then I thought maybe we would have a break and I'd be able to recuperate enough to get through the next tour and then that break would evaporate because now we had more stuff on the calendar. And so it's a little bit more worn down and a little bit more worn down until I really did hit a wall at a certain point where I felt like I'm really going down hard.
00:26:14
Speaker
One of the aspects of mental stress that occurs in these situations is the role of physical pain, physical stress affecting that. And sometimes in the music world, that gets neglected all the time. The physical part is like, you know, this is how I was trained is what you got to do.
00:26:30
Speaker
So I know you talk about this in your memoir, Hard to Breathe, a little bit. So if you can talk about the physical part of drumming professionally and the breakdown that you have physically that led you to having to retire from Room 5. Well, you know, I actually was an athlete before I was a musician. As a kid, I played a lot of baseball and I was a good pitcher.
00:26:57
Speaker
And I had arm problems in high school. That was eventually why I ended up stopping playing baseball, because I just had injuries to my pitching arm that just kept recurring. But I also had a lot of coaches who would tell me to just push through and play through the pain and got a lot of bad advice in that regard and that sort of tough it out mentality, which is necessary in some sports more than others.
Health Struggles and Support from Bandmates
00:27:23
Speaker
It was terrible advice, I think, as a pitcher.
00:27:26
Speaker
Um, were you a good pitcher? Yeah, yeah, I was actually. And I'm not just saying that kids who are young, who are good pitchers get overused so badly. That's how they break down. Yeah. Well, when I was 12 years old, I was, you know, I was the best pitcher in my little league and we won the championship and went on to the regionals and everything. And.
00:27:46
Speaker
I pitched in all-star tournaments. And I was on the varsity team pitching when I was a freshman at the end of that year. And so there was a lot of expectation. And yeah, I mean, every coach I had, it was like, OK, you're our guy. You're the guy we're going to ride to the championship. And I was game for it. And I thought that was my that was my job until my body started telling me otherwise, you know, I started having
00:28:11
Speaker
you know, elbow pain and then shoulder pain and kind of chronic tendinitis in my rotator cuff. And that was how it showed up originally on tour as a drummer. Strangely enough, those injuries for a long time didn't bother me as a drummer. But then about a year and a half, two years into touring on songs about Jane, I started having pain in my right shoulder again.
00:28:34
Speaker
And at the time, I thought, oh, no, it's the old pitching injury. In retrospect, I can see that it was partly that, but it was also the amount of strain I was under and having to try to perform when exhausted.
00:28:49
Speaker
mentally and physically and that perfectionistic attitude trying to control things that I couldn't and try harder and push through it and be my best for every stroke of every song of every set. And over time it became bearing down more and more and causing more stress on my joints
00:29:11
Speaker
My nervous system was fatiguing and I developed a dystonia. I had a movement disorder. My hands started shaking. I had difficulty coordinating things that used to be easier.
00:29:24
Speaker
I look at it now, and this was never a diagnosis I received in those days. I got the diagnosis of the joint inflammation and something called thoracic outlet syndrome. But in retrospect, I see it equally, if not more, like focal dystonia or musician's dystonia, where my body was just like, you're killing yourself. And if you're not going to stop, we're going to make you stop. That was what my nervous system was essentially telling me.
00:29:54
Speaker
So yeah, but there was that kind of toxic stew of that athlete mentality of try harder and push through it, that kind of like,
00:30:05
Speaker
denial that goes into that mentality of just pretending like I'm not experiencing what I'm experiencing. And just being in the middle of it and it's kind of a downward spiral too because once you have the physical symptoms and the inability to do the things you're supposed to be doing well, it confirms that imposter syndrome and it kind of feeds on itself and now you're
00:30:34
Speaker
you're ruminating on the negative outcomes, which then become a self-fulfilling prophecy and it just continues to kind of go downward. So Ryan, when did you reach your breaking point? And what did that look like? Like, how did you recognize this is where I'm at right now? I need to slow down. Maybe I need to stop. What did that time period look like for you?
00:30:57
Speaker
Well, there were a few of those conversations that I don't remember saying it to anyone in the band. It was kind of the elephant in the room with the band because they were noticing that something wasn't right. They were noticing that my playing was starting to suffer, that I would just drop a beat every now and then, or that my playing was kind of sloppier or just dragging.
00:31:19
Speaker
And they would bring it up to me out of concern as much as anything. But being a 25-year-old kid and macho, I would get kind of defensive, as opposed to saying, I'm really struggling, guys. I would be like, no, no, no, it's fine. It was just a one-time thing. It'll be better tomorrow night. But I do remember saying to our manager a few times, I really feel like I'm getting exhausted and I need a break.
00:31:47
Speaker
But it was one of those moments, I think it was in 2004, middle of 2004, after about two and a half years of touring. And we were in Europe doing European tour.
00:32:00
Speaker
And it was one of those moments where I was looking forward to like September as a month that we were going to have off. After all of our hard work, we were going to be able to go home and recuperate and have just a little bit of time to like rejuvenate and kind of start over. And then we were in the van on the way to the airport and our tour manager hands us the new itinerary.
00:32:22
Speaker
And I look at September, of course, all excited, and it's gone. There's a week in Australia, there's a week for a video shoot, and there's a week of promo in London.
00:32:37
Speaker
And I just, I remember really, really hitting the wall at that point. Just whatever energy stories I still had inside of me that I was just running on fumes, they just kind of went out the window in that moment and I felt really defeated. And so I have this memory of being in the international terminal of the airport in Milan and just kind of sitting hunched over in the middle of the airport
00:33:05
Speaker
with a backpack on with all of my worldly possessions, you know, my toiletry kit and everything. And just head down kind of in the field position, really just with people walking all around me, and just like, I don't know what I'm going to do. So that to me is like the image I go back to a feeling really, really beaten down.
00:33:26
Speaker
And believe it or not, I did push through a little bit after that. You know, we did go to Australia and I remember that being another new low where being on stage, it felt like that, just like so depleted, so jet lagged and having to push through it and play through a set and just feeling like my body had become this foreign instrument that I couldn't even control anymore.
00:33:50
Speaker
And so it was a new level of exhaustion that I hadn't experienced. And so shortly thereafter, somewhere around the end of 2004 or 2005, I did go home and I went to every kind of doctor you can possibly go to to see what was wrong with me. And the band was really supportive. I have to give them a lot of credit. We were brothers for over a decade at that point. And we had built this thing to this place where we're playing all over the world.
00:34:16
Speaker
Um, and they, they said, you know, go home, figure out what's wrong and fix it. We'll be here when you get back. And that was helpful to me at the time, but it was also just demoralizing to go back to, uh, at the time I'd been living on the road for three years, going back to a one bedroom apartment and watching my band from afar.
00:34:37
Speaker
still playing these epic shows around the world. And I'm sitting in doctor's offices and physical therapy rooms and just not knowing what was wrong with me. I mean, I had people telling me, you have tendinitis and things like that, but it didn't seem to capture the whole picture. It didn't seem like anyone was really
00:35:00
Speaker
giving me an answer to what was at the core of what was going on. And so I was just feeling more and more demoralized at that point. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
00:35:14
Speaker
Founded in 1957, School Health Corporation has been dedicated to helping school-based health professionals keep their students healthy for athletic performance. As a national full-service provider of health supplies and services, school health's comprehensive offerings include hydration supplies to prevent heat illnesses
00:35:33
Speaker
sports medicine, recovery and rehabilitation equipment, and school safety infographics for our athletes in the arts community. School Health provides more than just products and resources for performing artists and musicians. They also offer training, advisory services, and exceptional customer care for those supporting performers on school campuses. For more information, please visit www.schoolhealth.com.
00:36:04
Speaker
And now back to our show. Did you feel like you had any one say, Ryan, you need help? Like was family there? You know, did you have anyone around you that you could turn to that kind of told you what that whole picture looked like? I wonder, you know, even with kids these days or young artists, some of them are
00:36:27
Speaker
taking the lead to take a break and then get back to their craft, whether it's music, sports, and it feels like they have more support these days, or maybe it's just put out on social media and we're hearing about it on Instagram and Twitter, whatever, or X. And so I just wonder, you know, who brought that to light for you?
00:36:54
Speaker
When you were comparing Ryan, I don't know, during the first two to three years and then Ryan, the third and fourth year, what did that look like for you? Because I'm sure there was a lot, there were and are a lot of people that struggle with this and I wish they had that support to see the whole picture. Yeah, you know, I was fortunate. I have a great family and they were definitely very supportive and always were and continue to be.
00:37:22
Speaker
I had a girlfriend at home who was also really in my corner and trying to help me with whatever I needed. And like I said, the band were definitely encouraging and supportive. But I did feel, and I'll be honest, I did feel let down by the medical establishment at that point in terms of what it could offer me. Because I felt like everything was so specialized
00:37:52
Speaker
And there was, if you had pain in your shoulder, there was an orthopedist to go to. And he would tell you, you know, I can see inflammation on the MRI. I can give you a cortisone shot. Here's some anti-inflammatories and do some physical therapy. Or even, you know, I have a little crack in my labrum in my shoulder, which probably went back to my pitching days and they said, well,
00:38:14
Speaker
you know, we could operate on it, but it's probably not going to be helpful. And so there, there
Misdiagnoses and Coping Mechanisms
00:38:19
Speaker
was that. And, but it was like very isolated to that joint, right? And then I would go to a neurologist, you know, and they would, they would do a nerve conduction study and see, okay, there's slowing of the nerves. And diagnosing it was something like thoracic outlet syndrome or carpal tunnel syndrome or,
00:38:38
Speaker
You know, and okay, that's helpful and that's specific to this neurological issue that's going on. It's very specific.
00:38:45
Speaker
And then I went to a psychiatrist and they tried to diagnose me with a million things because I was out of my mind at that point, depressed and feeling really anxious and starting to drink more as a coping mechanism. And so presenting it with all of these things that I was misdiagnosed with at the time as bipolar or other mood disorders or whatever.
00:39:11
Speaker
And that didn't feel accurate to me. And it was just isolated to this, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with your mind? And what's a pill that I can give you to help you with that? What really seemed to be lacking to me was a holistic approach, something that saw the integration of mind and body and spirit. And so I did feel like there was no one who was at the center of the whole thing able to give me
00:39:39
Speaker
how to put all those pieces together and how to see what wellness is going to look like. Granted, at that point, having been that beaten down for that long, it was probably a little late in the game to try to turn it around.
00:39:55
Speaker
because I really, I look at it now and I had a hard time calling it this for a long time, but it was a trauma that happened to me. It was a slow moving trauma. And the reason why I had a hard time calling it that is because I reserved that word for people that have lived through war or a life and death situation or childhood abuse, those kinds of things. So me being a rock star on the road, how could you call that trauma?
00:40:21
Speaker
But it was a situation in which there was no reprieve from a high level of stress on my mind, body, and spirit for a long period of time, way past the point of what would be considered healthy or balanced, and way past the point of where I was trying to put my hand up and feeling like I'm drowning to where I'm literally just not able to continue. So I think a lot of damage had been done at that point.
00:40:50
Speaker
So to back up the tracks and try to heal a joint at that point was like almost futile in comparison to everything else that was going on. And I think that it would have been helpful to receive a diagnosis like dystonia or some kind of movement disorder or something that was just an integration of mind, body, and spirit.
00:41:15
Speaker
I had to come to that on my own terms in my own time when I was in my own recovery from alcoholism and anxiety disorder later, years later. Did alcoholism come as a result of where you were at the end of that, I guess, that run? Or was that something that happened when you left Maroon 5?
00:41:41
Speaker
It ramped up in that last year I was in the band when I was no longer playing, but I was still a member of the band and trying to be connected to what was going on and feeling really defeated and beating myself up a lot and feeling like a failure. The drink, which had been a way to facilitate good times, became all of a sudden a way to cope with pain or a way to check out or avoid feelings.
00:42:11
Speaker
So that's when it became more of a problem. And then when I did officially leave the band and I had to learn somehow how to move on with my life, then it really became a lifestyle, you know, because I didn't have any responsibility in my life at that point. And any ways in which I was trying to look at myself as
00:42:32
Speaker
an athlete trying to return from an injury was out the window and now I didn't have any reason to really care for my body. And it was just kind of like, I look at it kind of as a, I was never actively suicidal, but it was kind of a passive suicidality where I obviously didn't care enough for myself or I was
00:42:54
Speaker
angry enough that myself where I was punishing myself with this toxic lifestyle, which eventually would kill me if I continued the way that I was going. But I went through all of the cycles of addiction that people go through.
00:43:11
Speaker
real bad there for a year or two after I left the band. And then I went into what I referred to in my book, Harder to Breathe, as the illusion of control. There's a whole chapter called the illusion of control because it was that period of alcoholism where it's like, oh, I just need to learn how to
00:43:27
Speaker
how to have some moderation you know if i don't drink on the during the week and i only drink on the weekends or if i wait until five o'clock to have my first beer or i stick only stick to beer and wine and not hard liquor then i have control over this thing right right which was just a fantasy it was just a rationalization or an illusion so i went through that phase and then of course it got worse again and to the point where
00:43:54
Speaker
I had no illusions anymore. I had to face the reality that it was not only not serving me, but had become the problem itself.
Journey to Recovery and Helping Others
00:44:02
Speaker
And once I was finally able to recognize that was when I was able to reach a level of acceptance that allowed me to start the journey of recovery.
00:44:12
Speaker
So what is it like for a person like yourself who is, you know, part of your identity is the founding drummer of the successful band, and then you are no longer part of that band anymore. And then you go through the, you know, go through these addiction problems and mental health struggles. So then how do you
00:44:34
Speaker
make the transition to a career that you're doing now where you're able to help others. You're writing your book, you're seeing patients, clients as a counselor. Talk to us about how do you make that transition because
00:44:51
Speaker
Just to be able to function is a lot of times a big success for people in that situation. But for you to be able to turn it around and become the person that you probably wish you had back in 2002 or three, that's pretty remarkable. So, but how do you, yes, how's that turning point occur for you?
00:45:08
Speaker
Well, it's amazing. I could not have foreseen that I would be doing some of the things that I'm doing now if you asked me 10 years ago. It took me about 10 years after I left the band to go through the whole cycle of alcoholism and
00:45:27
Speaker
What i really i really look at it as you know the stages of grief that i went through you know dealing with the loss of that identity sure. More more so than the loss of the career and all the fame and glory and riches of of being a pop star it was really a loss of self.
00:45:46
Speaker
You know, something that was so definitive in terms of my self-image, my self-worth. So I, you know, everything had really, I didn't know who I was, you know, anymore after that. And so when I really finally kind of hit a bottom and decided that life was worth living still and I wanted to start walking into recovery,
00:46:07
Speaker
You know, with humility and acceptance. I had no visions of what that was going to lead me to. I just knew that I needed to give life another shot. But pretty early on, I was kind of infected with this sense of how fulfilling being of service can be.
00:46:27
Speaker
And it was just, I was at the Betty Ford Center here in Southern California and started out with me being full of anxiety and just detoxing from alcohol and struggling to like two weeks in being the guy who was helping people to their room that were still shaking like a leaf and giving them encouraging words and acclimating them to the process and starting to share with them some of the things I'd learned in two weeks of recovery.
00:46:55
Speaker
And that was a really powerful feeling that I had something to offer another human being in a helpful way, which was something I had been lacking for a long time. And really what I'd been lacking more than anything was the sense of connection.
00:47:08
Speaker
Right? Because I had this really strong connection in being a member of a band and a team and a unit that was as much a spiritual connection as anything. We were inspired creative partners that worked together toward a common goal for over a decade. And then I spent a decade without anything like that in my life and feeling really isolated and really disconnected from the things that filled me up.
00:47:35
Speaker
So now I'm feeling all this connection in being inspired by others that are a little bit ahead of me in the process of recovery and being able to offer that to the people who were a little bit behind me. And so I just kind of followed that feeling that which was so fulfilling.
00:47:52
Speaker
in everything that I was doing. Once I was about six months sober and I had completed the inpatient and the outpatient programs, I started volunteering at the outpatient clinic for two years. I volunteered just doing peer support and running co-leading groups. And what was amazing about that, I mean, it was first and foremost a way to work on my own recovery because I was being of service and that's a big part of the 12 steps and all that.
00:48:20
Speaker
But also, it was building up my self-esteem again. It was giving me the confidence that had been so depleted by everything I'd gone through. I was getting a lot of positive feedback that I had other talents than just being the drummer in Room 5. That just by showing up and sharing what I was gaining in my recovery, that I actually had something to offer again.
00:48:40
Speaker
And I was rediscovering or discovering for the first time other passions. And that led to me having this newfound passion for psychology and mental health, which led me back to school to get a master's degree in clinical psychology, which led me to become a therapist. I'm now an associate marriage and family therapist.
00:49:02
Speaker
And in the course of doing all that, I also realized that this tragic story that I've been telling myself for so long about how my first love and my first passion had ended in such a tragic way now had a happy ending. And that by telling that story, I could actually offer some hope to people that are struggling with some of the things that I was struggling with. And so I had all these new
00:49:28
Speaker
inspirations in life that led to what felt like a new mission and purpose in giving back and being of service, in telling my story in a way that could be hopeful and inspirational to people. So I started writing down, you know, all of my war stories, good and bad, all of the fun times and the hard times and everything that led to where I was at that point in my life. And it became this book, Harder to Breathe,
00:49:54
Speaker
which is, to me, kind of my life's work up until this point. It's the thing I'm most proud of. And that says a lot. You know, I spent a decade building a band that recorded an album that sold 20 million copies and won two Grammy Awards. And those are accomplishments that I'm very proud of. But, you know, the book and what I'm doing now has this added element of, you know, doing something altruistic, doing something that can be helpful to people.
00:50:19
Speaker
And I recommend that to anyone if you're looking for purpose, just being of service. And it doesn't have to be in big ways that I'm describing. It can be as simple as being helpful to a friend or a family member, or just being a little bit less selfish and a little bit more selfless. And just showing up. I mean, if you're struggling with things, what was amazing to me is that even in sharing what I was struggling with,
00:50:42
Speaker
even in just talking about how much anxiety I'm experiencing right now, somebody else hearing that is gaining something from it, right? Because they don't feel alone. Someone else in the group is realizing, oh, so here's another guy that's going through what I'm going through, and he seems like he's okay, he's gonna get through this, so maybe I can get through it too. So service doesn't always have to be this amazing altruistic thing. It can just be showing up and being yourself
00:51:10
Speaker
And so I kind of just, I've rediscovered passion and purpose in my life in those things. And I continue to just kind of follow that feeling of fulfillment towards whatever is going to be the next thing that will offer that to me.
00:51:26
Speaker
Amazing. Very cool. I mean, I just feel like what you did by walking away was very hard, but also very powerful looking back and seeing what you've achieved ever since then. Can you tell us a little bit more about your book?
00:51:43
Speaker
Yeah, harder to breathe. Like I said, it's a book that took 40 years of my life to write, really, because it was everything that I lived through that went into eventually writing that book. It's very raw and honest. I had one goal above everything else was to be as vulnerable and honest as I could be, because what was the point of glossing over things or writing a book that didn't really go there?
00:52:12
Speaker
Because who would I be helping if I didn't really kind of lay it all out there?
00:52:17
Speaker
And, you know, I think it kind of charts my journey from before the band and some of the things that I wasn't aware were issues for me. The anxieties and the perfectionism and the obsessive compulsiveness and things that at certain times in my life were benefits. You know, I mean, I think being hardworking and striving for perfection was part of the early success of the band, you know, being that guy who was trying to be the organizer of things.
00:52:46
Speaker
But looking back and having the perspective of not just somebody who lived through everything I did and has lived to tell the tale, but also as a professional now, somebody who has an education on this stuff, I can talk about it with a little bit more wisdom.
00:53:01
Speaker
uh maybe at this point in my life but it's not a it's not a book that's written for people uh that are in grad school you know i had to stop myself from doing that and and making it into a book that's written in psycho babble uh it's really just a it's it's a narrative it's written like a novel and it's really um
00:53:19
Speaker
It's fun. Hopefully it's inspiring in the early years of the band. It's heartbreaking and it's kind of a roller coaster in terms of the emotional ride and the depths it goes to. But ultimately it's helpful. And its purpose is to give people just a sense in the last third of the book of what recovery looks like and what I've learned in the journey that's led me to a whole new life that's been so fulfilling.
00:53:48
Speaker
So with your new life as a psychotherapist and life coach, I want you to wear that hat for a second here.
Resiliency and Growth Mindset
00:53:55
Speaker
And I want to talk a little bit about the work you're doing now, especially with life coaching for creatives. One of the things we've talked about before in this show, and we talk a lot about in the performing arts and medicine organizations, is about resiliency in dancers and performers and musicians, and how we help develop that.
00:54:13
Speaker
A lot of people talk today about how today's generation doesn't know how to handle conflict because of social media and all these things. So I'm sure you come across this with other creatives you deal with.
00:54:26
Speaker
So what do you think are like the best advice for people who are dealing with that kind of problem? How does one develop that resiliency to continue on in this field? Because as we already discussed in your career, you could be easily hung it up when you're age 20 after that first failure.
00:54:45
Speaker
Well, I think the best way to first answer that question is to look back. You know, a question I get asked a lot is like, if you could do something differently knowing what you know now and go back and relive all of that, what would you do? Given the challenges that I had, which are similar to a lot of the challenges that young people are experiencing these days. And the answer I would give is that, you know, I think that
00:55:12
Speaker
I suffered from the defensiveness of youth that many people do. I think as a young person, in particular as a teenager, but in your 20s as well, things that are challenging or foreign or new or criticism can feel very harsh and can feel like a threat to your sense of self. It's like, well, if that's true, then maybe I'm not good enough.
00:55:36
Speaker
And that's where that imposter syndrome comes from. And the perfectionism is I have to be so good, otherwise I'm not good enough, right? And what happens and what happened for me is this defensiveness where you end up rejecting things that are actually gonna be helpful or seeing things that are actually opportunities for growth as threats.
00:56:03
Speaker
So the change I would like to see in my younger self most is more of an openness to change in growth, a more of a mindset of growth, more of an openness to the possibilities that come from being challenged. Because when you see challenges rather than threats,
00:56:22
Speaker
Now you have the possibility of leading to something positive as opposed to when something is a threat, you're either going to just crumble or run away. Avoid it, right? It's a stressor, right.
00:56:33
Speaker
Right. The reality is now, I mean, at this point in my life, I look at things that are giving me anxiety, things that are challenging or foreign to me as exciting, because here's another frontier for me. Here's something that I haven't conquered yet. And it's like, oh, maybe that's where I need to be. Because if it's something that feels very comfortable, that's something I've already done. That's something I've grown accustomed to or gained confidence in. But if this thing makes me uncomfortable,
00:57:00
Speaker
There's something that I can walk into and learn something from. So the mindset of growth, having that ability to look at things with the beginner's mind, we're all beginners until we learn. And so when confronted with new information, looking at ways to integrate it into what we already know and expand on our horizons, see opportunities rather than threats.
00:57:29
Speaker
Do you feel like it's possible for young artists and even those who are older but they're just getting started in music or just their their successful career in music do you think it's possible to set boundaries like is that a possible thing for
00:57:47
Speaker
for creative artists. Like I just think about some of the artists that have canceled tour dates since the pandemic. And I wonder, can they like have a conversation and say, Hey, this is what needs to happen. And this is what's going to work for me. And if you can make this happen, then I'm going to continue forward with I don't know the tour or revisit this in a year. I don't know.
00:58:10
Speaker
Yeah, well, I actually wrote an article in Variety magazine about this because it is amazing to see how younger artists are starting to prioritize wellness and mental health in ways that they not only didn't, but didn't have the ability to.
Systemic Changes for Artists' Well-being
00:58:30
Speaker
20 years ago, if somebody canceled a tour, you would assume one of two things. One, they were just being a diva.
00:58:38
Speaker
or they had a drug problem, right? And they would use some catchphrase like, you know, canceled tour due to exhaustion. And you'd think, oh, that's just a label for something else, right?
00:58:53
Speaker
And so I think the answer is twofold. There's the individual and then there's the systemic issues to see that you actually have the option now to have those conversations and talk about building a more sustainable model for a career than just meeting the bottom line, this touring cycle.
00:59:17
Speaker
I think that for the individual, finding ways to cope and finding ways to set boundaries and build a more balanced lifestyle, that's a challenge in this lifestyle. It's just an inherently unbalanced lifestyle, but there are things that you can do to do that individually. However, in order to really see the difference really fleshed out, there does have to be those systemic changes as well. I talked about how it would have been helpful to have a team that was thinking about
00:59:46
Speaker
you know, having sustainability over a four-year album cycle. How are you going to build in a therapeutic environment into that community to make it a more resilient touring entity?
00:59:59
Speaker
Those conversations are finally happening now. And so that's a wonderful thing to see. And I think that artists do have more room to set boundaries. It's still difficult. I mean, you have to walk that line. It is a business. At the end of the day, you can't hold it against an industry for being an industry. It's at the end of the day, everyone that's in it is trying to have success and make money. And that's no different than any other industry. It's just that you have people who are creative people in the middle of this.
01:00:25
Speaker
who do tend to have more sensitivities to these things than a lot of people because it's the same temperament, the same type of personality that drives creativity and expression that also can be in ways in which people can be vulnerable to some of these things.
01:00:41
Speaker
And so you do have to have a sensitivity if you're managing some of these artists, if you're running a record label, if you're a promotional team to understand that these are not just human beings, but these are sensitive human beings. And what they have to offer is profound. When they blossom into this beautiful flower that we all benefit from, it's beautiful to see it. We all want to see it thrive and continue. And if we just
01:01:07
Speaker
put it under conditions where it's not getting sunlight and it's not getting the water and nourishment it needs, it's going to wilt at a certain point. And so having these conversations and systemically thinking about what we can do to be more sustainable, but also giving individuals the capacity to build resilience, those are both necessary ingredients. Do you feel like it's possible to have more individuals like you who's had this
01:01:35
Speaker
this experience in the past and being in a band and a musician to be on those teams in the future? Is that something that's in a work in progress right now? Because I feel like with the young artists, if their parents are managing them and they're monitoring who's on this team, I wonder if there's an organization that's helping ensure that there is a mental health professional on staff when
01:02:05
Speaker
people are signing with these labels. Yeah, I think you are starting to see those types of things becoming available. You know, when I put my book,
01:02:14
Speaker
out into the world. I didn't have a mission specific to the music industry. I was operating as somebody who was just trying to be helpful to people in a general way, but from the perspective of a mental health professional and advocate now. But then I started getting people reaching out to me from the music world because of my background and because of
01:02:37
Speaker
where we are in the world and how things have changed in 20 years. And I got a call from a lady named Tamsen Embleton in London, England, who is the head of something called the Music Industry Therapist Collective, the MITC, which I had never heard of. And she just happened to have a book coming out.
01:02:59
Speaker
called Touring and Mental Health, the touring industry manual. And I read this thing, I mean, I scanned it, it's like an encyclopedia of everything that you can possibly imagine would come up for a touring musician, it's like 600 pages long.
01:03:15
Speaker
Oh my God, I wish this thing had existed 20 years ago when I was going through all of this because it's like a manual to instruct you on how to be prepared for that lifestyle, how to deal with all the stressors that come up and finding ways to find balance in an unbalanced context. And so I joined the MITC. I'm now one of the therapists and a group of therapists who were people who had worked in the music industry previously.
01:03:43
Speaker
and left because of how toxic it was and became therapists and now are working with creatives and people in the industry. And there are a few different entities like that that exist that I've learned about since that are specific to either creative people,
01:04:00
Speaker
people in the industry or even specific touring crew and production crew, which is a whole other unique and specific subset of what we're talking about. I mean, they have all the work and all the stress without all the glory of being the famous rock star. And when one tour ends, they go home and figure out how am I going to get my next paycheck? They got to find another tour.
01:04:26
Speaker
So those are the people that I wish I had more respect for when they were working for me 20 years ago, realizing just how difficult that life is. So yes, there are people that are out there. I think that I'm relatively unique and that I'm actually one of the people who was one of the artists.
01:04:46
Speaker
and that really did lose a lot because of all of that and now has some expertise in this field. There are a few of me out there but there's also just a lot of people that have a passion for this stuff and want to be involved in helping these people and so you're seeing that more and more and I think that hopefully
01:05:08
Speaker
When people like me do the kind of advocacy that I'm doing, you'll start to see record labels and promotional teams saying, you know what, it actually is beneficial to our bottom line to build a sustainable model, to have touring crew and artists who are going to have long careers that are thriving and not just burn them out in one year.
01:05:28
Speaker
It's kind of like life after sport.
Transitioning from Musician to New Identities
01:05:30
Speaker
When there's all this education, there's like a curriculum before a college athlete is transitioning out of their sport and going into the real world. I feel like that needs to be done for musical artists and for people that decide music may not be, let me take that back a little bit, but like, because I feel like music is always going to be in your life, right? But maybe not being part of a band or being on that certain level.
01:05:57
Speaker
is gonna be the right fit for them and taking that next step. Yeah, there's so many parallels between the athletes and the artists in that regard. Even if you are the most successful as you can possibly be in a sport, there's an end date, right? And it's usually long before you wish you could continue. I mean, to spend your entire life dedicated to one craft,
01:06:26
Speaker
And for that to be your purpose in life, to be the thing that fills you up and feels like you know what you're doing when you're
01:06:32
Speaker
on the ball field or on the court or whatever it may be. And then all of a sudden that's gone. And what am I gonna do with the rest of my life? Whether that be half of your life, three quarters of your life, or like for me, I walked away from pitching when I was 15. And that was my passion from age eight to 15. And then it was like, thankfully I had music to go into at that point in my life. But then I had to go through that again at 28 when I walked away from music.
01:06:59
Speaker
I think that having success can be a wonderful thing, but it can also make that end date even more painful. Realizing that now a big part of my self-definition, my identity, my meaning and purpose is gone, and who am I without that? So it's tough.
01:07:24
Speaker
Ryan, do you still incorporate music into your day? Are you still running? I do. It means something a little different than it did back in the day. Music is interesting. Music is such a complicated relationship for me because it's where my biggest passion was at a certain point in my life.
01:07:48
Speaker
It's where my biggest success was at a certain point in my life, but it's also where my trauma lies, right? And so that's all there for me, and it's still part of the work that I do individually, personally, at this point in my life. I've overcome so much, but I still have those wounds. You know, I still have those things that
01:08:06
Speaker
I'll never, well, never say never, but when I sit at a drum set, it's a different experience now than it was 25 years ago, right? There was a freedom and there was a sense that this is my escape. This is the place where I feel like I'm in flow and I'm in a zen state of mind when I'm playing the drums.
01:08:29
Speaker
and now it's all that baggage and this is the place where I was injured and this is the place where I dealt with that disappointment. So it's a complicated thing for me, but I try to find ways to tap into that old feeling in other ways. I do play more guitar now than I do drums. I like to sing and I'm not a great singer, but I find it fun just in the same way that I go and I play softball on Sunday mornings with my dad
01:08:58
Speaker
And it reminds me of being 12 years old when he was my coach and we won the championship in Little League. And it's just a way to tap into that more innocent time when you just played for the fun of it and felt, you know, just
Finding Joy in Simple Musical Activities
01:09:13
Speaker
just a sense of who you are just from going through the motion of fielding a ground ball and throwing it or hitting a baseball. And it's the same thing with music. As much as there is that injury and that baggage and that trauma, if I'm just jamming out playing guitar and singing and not worrying about what it sounds like and just having fun with my brother who plays guitar and my nephew who plays the drums, then I'm tapping into that freedom.
01:09:40
Speaker
and that expression that was so fun when I was 16 years old. But it is a challenge. And I talk about this with my clients of all walks of life. It's like tapping into that inner child who sometimes just wants something simple and something joyful that reminds you of a more innocent time. Beautiful.
01:10:05
Speaker
Well, Ryan, I really appreciate your time being with us. It was amazing to talk to you. It was an amazing story you talked, you shared with us and your life is an inspiration for musicians and creatives and people in general, especially the last part about, I mean, actually getting a little missy eyed here thinking about playing baseball when I was growing up and hurting my shoulder.
01:10:24
Speaker
And, uh, suddenly I couldn't throw anymore. And I'd be in the coach during tryouts. He almost threw the bat at me and that end of my career. So just thinking about just the fun of playing sports and, uh, getting back to our youth is really inspirational. So.
01:10:37
Speaker
I just want to tell you, I really appreciate you being on the show. I really appreciate your story. I think people are going to be moved by it. I think your book, it's amazing. I think it's going to be, uh, I think your purpose in life is helping so many people, even though your music did too. Um, I just want to thank you so much for the bottom of my heart for being here today. Thank you, Ryan.
01:10:57
Speaker
Thank you guys so much. I appreciate that. And it sounds like we could do a whole other interview about that story. Throwing the bat and all that. Oh man, that's the trauma there too for myself. I'm still working through, I think so. Yeah, that's interesting. As a therapist, I'm intrigued. And Ryan, lastly, where can people find your book, harder to breathe, a memoir of making maroon five, losing it all and finding recovery.
01:11:25
Speaker
You can get it on Amazon or anywhere you buy books, barnesandnoble.com. Yeah, and my website, ryaneducic.com, is a good place to access all things, all things Ryan Dusink. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, guys. And that wraps up another episode. We'd like to thank our sponsor, School Health, again for supporting the show. And if you like what you hear, please click Subscribe and leave a review.
01:11:50
Speaker
For Yossi Ansari, I'm Stephen Karaginas, and this has been the Athletes in the Arts Podcast.