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The College Dance Experience
47 Plays1 year ago
Yasi and Steven explore college dance education at one of the largest performing arts programs in the country, the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance. Specifically, we talk about adapting to a rapidly evolving post-COVID educational environment, the effects of the Michigan State University shooting on students and faculty, integrating Black activism into one's artistic journey, the effects of competition dance on college dance education, and mental health.
Our guests on this exploration are Jillian Hopper, assistant professor of dance at the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance, and Brooke Taylor, senior dance major at SMTD and founder of Black Scholars in Dance.
For more about University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance, go to https://smtd.umich.edu/
For Brooke Taylor's dance reel, go to youtu.be/wUAZJUmmHBQ
For more information on Jillian's Dance Legacy Project at the University of Michigan, go to https://smtd.umich.edu/the-dance-legacy-project/
Brooke's Instagram is @brooke.alexandria.taylor
Jillian's instagram is @hopperjillian
For more about Athletes and the Arts or to find resources, go to http://athletesandthearts.com/
Bios:
Jillian Hopper: Jillian Hopper is an assistant professor of dance at the University of Michigan School of Music, Theatre & Dance and is the Artistic Director of The Dance Legacy Project at Michigan alongside creative partner Prof. Christian Matijas-Mecca. She specializes in the dance technique of Doris Humphrey with the aim of preserving the technique for future generations as a Trustee of the Doris Humphrey Foundation, UK (England). Hopper also focuses her physical practice on methods of embodiment for the purpose of increasing empathy and sensitivity in practice and performance. These skills have assisted Hopper as a director of the DLP and within her own choreography. Her latest project Mirror Ritual: a chamber ballet in three tableaus premiered on Feb 2, 2023, at the Power Center for Performing Arts in Ann Arbor, MI, and is a collaboration with composer Griffin Candey. She has taught professionally for Hillsdale College, Eastern Michigan University, Middlesex University (London, UK) The Place (London, UK), and Northern School of Contemporary Dance (Leeds, UK). As rehearsal director for U-M, Hopper has had the pleasure of rehearsing guest works by Ohad Naharin, Richard Alston, Lucinda Childs, Urban Bush Women, Alessio Silvestrin, and Shannon Gillen (Vim Vigor) among others.
Hopper received her BA (Hons) choreography from Middlesex University London, UK (2007) and her MFA Dance Performance from the University of Michigan (2012). She is on the board of directors for ConteXture Dance Detroit. In her own work, Hopper explores ritualistic movement concepts with an emphasis on nature’s powerful spirituality. She has performed in works by Doris Humphrey, Peter Sparling, Monica Bill Barnes, Sidra Bell, Danny T. Reid, Tracy Halloran, and many of her own compositions throughout the Midwest and Europe.
Brooke Taylor: Brooke Taylor is a senior at the University of Michigan pursuing Dance and a minor in Education for Empowerment. As a 17 year trained dancer in ballet, modern, tap, and jazz, her passion is the intersection of art and activism. This new found passion has led Taylor in creating work that fo
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Transcript
Introduction to Athletes in the Arts Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to the Athletes in the Arts podcast, hosted by Stephen Karaginas and Yasi Amisari.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hi again, and welcome to the Athletes in the Arts podcast. Along with Yassir Ansari, I'm Stephen Karaginas. We're very excited for another episode of our show that is heading into its third year. So if you're new, welcome to the show. And if you're a longtime listener, we are grateful you don't have better things to do. Remember to click and subscribe and leave a friendly review if you like what you hear.
Upcoming Organizational Meetings
00:00:42
Speaker
Now really quick, we want to give a shout out to some of our organizational meetings coming up.
00:00:47
Speaker
The American Academy of Orthopedic Medicine meetings April 26th to 30th in Fort Lauderdale. The American Medical Society of Sports Medicine meets April 28th May 3rd in Phoenix. The American Osteopathic Academy of Sports Medicine meets April 24th to 29th in Anaheim. The American College of Sports Medicine meets May 30th of June 4th in Denver, Colorado.
00:01:06
Speaker
The Performing Arts Medical Association meets July 6th to 9th in New York City, and the International Association of Dance Medicine and Science meets October 12th to 15th in Columbus, Ohio.
Exploring College Dance at University of Michigan
00:01:18
Speaker
So our show today is gonna take a deep dive into the college dance world. Now we did a show about two years ago about college dance in Massachusetts. We talked with an athletic trainer and dance faculty and talked about their interactions with each other. But this time we wanted to get a college dancer with their faculty on the show.
00:01:35
Speaker
So today we will go to the University of Michigan Ann Arbor, home of the Esteemed School of Music, Theatre and Dance. Now they put out professionals year in and year out and their list of famous alumni goes on and on. But the educational environment is very fluid, always in motion, and these post COVID years have been turbulent to say the least. So Yasi and I wanted to find out more about how a top program like University of Michigan works.
00:02:00
Speaker
how the faculty to see their students, how their students see their faculty, what they'd like to prepare for a professional dance career, how the faculty prepared their students. We also want to dive into the effects of competition dance on college dance education, as well as mental health issues. But first, a couple of disclaimers. Number one, I went to the University of Michigan, and I currently work with the performers there as a performing arts medicine physician. Two, both our guests are also patients of mine. So I just wanted to make sure everyone was aware of this issue.
Welcoming Guests: Jillian Hopper & Brooke Taylor
00:02:30
Speaker
So our guests on our podcast today are Jillian Hopper, assistant professor of dance at the University of Michigan School of Music, Theater and Dance and the artistic director of the Dance Legacy Project at Michigan. We also have Brooke Taylor, a senior dance major in the School of Music, Theater and Dance with a minor in education for empowerment and founder of Black Scholars in Dance.
00:02:52
Speaker
Jillian and Brooke, we are so excited to have you both on the show with us. So happy to be here. Yeah, me too. Yeah. So Jillian, I'm going to start with you.
Jillian Hopper's Dance Journey
00:03:03
Speaker
Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey in dance education and what led you to the University of Michigan?
00:03:12
Speaker
Sure, so I I found myself in my early 20s living in England and I decided to go back to University over there and finish my undergraduate degree because I had dropped out and was performing and so my
00:03:34
Speaker
I applied to a few different programs over there in London and outside of London, and was accepted to a few different programs, but decided to go to Middlesex University, which is in London, but it's in the northern part of the city. And that's where I came into contact with Dr. Leslie Main. And she was the one that introduced me to the dance technique of Doris Humphrey.
00:04:04
Speaker
And I found and I was had been over there for a while. And by this point, I was in my later my mid 20s. And so I had found this technique at a time in my life where my body was changing, and it couldn't necessarily do everything that it used to be able to do. And I was coming back to dancing full time after
00:04:31
Speaker
singing and doing musical theater and having a different kind of performing life. And so finding the Humphrey work and finding Leslie was such an important kind of
00:04:51
Speaker
moment in my life and through the work and through her mentorship, I really started to understand my passion and my skill at teaching, which didn't happen overnight, but the technique
00:05:13
Speaker
fit so well within my own physicality, it felt so natural to do that kind of work. And then because of the passion that I had for it, I wanted to share that. So after finishing my undergraduate degree over there, I was immediately kept on for an extra year to shadow her and to kind of learn how to teach the technique for an extra year before I then started teaching it on my own.
00:05:39
Speaker
And that's really what started my teaching career in higher education. And then my journey to the University of Michigan was rather bizarre. I was performing at a dance history symposium at the University of Surrey in England, and the University of Michigan
00:06:03
Speaker
was there. Two professors, Dr. Angela Kane and Professor Jessica Fogel were in attendance and they saw my performance and
00:06:18
Speaker
And I happened to look in the program and notice that they were from the University of Michigan and I was originally from Michigan. And so I just went over and introduced myself. And so we started a conversation and we exchanged email addresses and they recruited me for their graduate degree program here at the University of Michigan. And so I applied and I got in and moved back to Michigan to get my master's.
00:06:46
Speaker
So that's how I came back. Yeah, what a beautiful journey. Brooke, what about you?
Brooke Taylor's College Decision and Activism
00:06:53
Speaker
What led you to choose the University of Michigan?
00:06:56
Speaker
Well, honestly, my mom is Spartan, but my brother and my sister both went to the University of Michigan. And my mom was like, oh, you're getting a third Michigan degree. Like, I want that on my wall. But my junior year of high school, I went to M Pulse, which is like a summer dance intensive that the University of Michigan hosts. And Julian Hopper was my professor there.
00:07:22
Speaker
And yeah, yeah, so it's like full circle. But at this program, I just remember like taking ballet class and really feeling like Michigan cared so much about like the health of dancers and how to properly like turn out and how to take care of your body, which I'd never experienced because I actually went to a summer in 10th Wolf in New York for a dance theater of Harlem. And they were they were focused on turnout so much that that's when my knees started popping out.
00:07:52
Speaker
So when I went to Michigan and I started like thinking about the different ways to really focus on technique but in the most healthy way and I just loved how we had so many like
00:08:07
Speaker
Like medicine was like implemented in like health was implemented into our technique classes and into everything that we were learning. So and I also wanted to do a double major. So there was a lot of moving parts to why I came to Michigan.
00:08:23
Speaker
And now as a senior, I'm only a dancer. I'm not just a dancer. I am a dance major, minoring in education, but I've definitely found that dance intersects with so many, so many things that I've able to just experience, so many things outside of dance. And I'm really just grateful for my experience at Michigan.
00:08:44
Speaker
Very cool. It sounds like University of Michigan really personalizes their approach to each dancer from what you're sharing. So that's beautiful. Why don't you tell us a little bit about how you combine artistry and advocacy because we've we've read a little bit about that, but I want to hear it from you and see that and hear more about the work that you're doing because you're right.
00:09:07
Speaker
The beauty of dances, you can share so many stories on stage and you can reach audiences through music and art. So tell us a little bit more about what you're doing.
00:09:22
Speaker
Yes, so actually, my love for activism began in my high school years when my dance studio, I grew up as a competitive dancer, my dance studio kind of split apart. And everybody that I grew up dancing with
00:09:38
Speaker
went to another studio and I felt like I had to be loyal, so I stayed where I was. But the result of that was me being a teacher instead of a learner, instead of a student. So I had to resort to other things within my high school that made me happy. And one of those things was African American Awareness Club. And through that club, I really started learning about just different topics about Black culture and
00:10:07
Speaker
racism and it was just like mind-blowing to have that have that experience and really think about how I can intersect that with my art. So I began planning assemblies in high school like Black History Month assemblies and then in college my love of activism grew and I started planning protests for the Black Lives Matter movement specifically and the most memorable for me would have been driving for justice. I was at like the wake of
00:10:37
Speaker
COVID-19 and the murder of George Floyd. My grandmother is 93 and she lives with me and just to like know her story and how her family migrated from Mississippi due to lynchings and racism, but to be at the kitchen table watching her watch the news of a man being
00:10:59
Speaker
lynched in almost like a 21st century version. So I had a dream to plan a safe drive-in protest so my grandmother could participate. And in addition to my grandmother participating, so many like young students like elementary schoolers really got their first protest experience. And it was just beautiful for me to plan
00:11:23
Speaker
a huge assembly outside on the grass with art and spoken word and dance. I was just talking to my friend about this. I believe that sometimes we learn so much history, but the only way to really engrave it in our heads is if we have a meaningful experience with it. And I think my meaningful experience is creating art that can educate other people.
00:11:52
Speaker
And I think that's how we keep history alive and how we keep it going. So that's a little bit of how I kind of have intersected my art and love of activism together. So with everything I do, I really try to think about how I'm educating the audience and how I'm fulfilling myself and fulfilling my ancestors who I know the only reason I'm here is because of them.
00:12:17
Speaker
So some of the work you've done at Michigan, I think your senior BFA performance kind of ties into that a little bit. Can you talk a little bit about the performance you did? I think with Emmett Till? Yes.
Senior Dance Piece & Personal Inspirations
00:12:27
Speaker
I planned, or I choreographed a group piece entitled Almost Till. And it was a true story. My great uncles were
00:12:37
Speaker
working on a railroad and got into a fight with some white boys and they beat their butt as my grandma says. I'm like remembering her voicemail because I've interviewed her about this story so many times and they had to run home and tell my great-grandmother what happened
00:12:58
Speaker
And she knew that the lynch mob was going to come. So she put them on donkeys and sent them to the train to migrate to Chicago. And my great-grandmother had to get rid of the mules or the donkeys. So when the lynch mob came, they didn't see that the mules were sweating. And when they knocked on the door, my great-grandmother was like, oh, my boy's like, I don't know where they are. And she had to put on this whole act to really
00:13:28
Speaker
make sure her sons were safe. And after that, she had to sell off the rest of the farm and everybody migrated to Chicago. So that was what my senior piece was about. And my grandmother got to see it on my last performance and yeah. Very cool. Thank you. Very cool.
00:13:47
Speaker
Hi, everyone.
Impact of Michigan State Shooting
00:13:48
Speaker
I just want to take a break here really quickly to let our listeners know that we were recording this episode only a few days after the horrific mass shooting at Michigan State University, which is only one hour away from the University of Michigan campus. Our guests and I have many connections there, including my own daughter. So although we will not be discussing the specifics of the events of February 13, 2023, if this upsets you, if this triggers you, or you simply want to avoid hearing this discussion,
00:14:16
Speaker
Please skip ahead to 2332 on the podcast for the next eight minutes. Thank you. So we're recording this podcast five days after a horrific event occurred at Michigan State University. So you're both at University of Michigan and for our listeners, Michigan and Michigan State are no more than an hour apart by car. And of course, many people
00:14:38
Speaker
from Michigan, no folks at Michigan State. So my daughter's a sophomore there. She was in the building next to the first location of the shooting, and she was able to get out of there safely. So for instance, with Brooke, your experience, how close to home did this moment hit for you? What was your first reaction seeing this come across the news? Well, I was actually at Michigan State,
00:15:06
Speaker
when it happened. I went to talk with my friend at their apartment and I just remember we were mid conversation and then we look out the window and see like ambulances like lined up on the street and so many police officers and we're like, okay, we need to stop this conversation because what is going on? And then they got the email and then they're in the group chat of a Michigan State group chat. And there was so much misinformation happening
00:15:35
Speaker
saying that there was one shooter, five shooters, this many people. And it was so scary. And I think in that moment, I didn't know because then they started saying that they were bombing buildings and all we could do was just stay put. And I think I was in shock because I didn't really process it until
00:16:05
Speaker
A few days later, I was just sitting in the dining hall of Bursley at the University of Michigan and I was realizing like, you know, it would be so easy for somebody to just come in here and just...
00:16:16
Speaker
create chaos. And knowing that there's so many buildings on campus where you don't have to swipe in or it's just accessible to the public, you just start wondering and you start paying attention and start side-eyeing people. And it's just, it's chaos. And I know all of the students just feel so unsafe and feel like we're not really
00:16:45
Speaker
being protected the way we should. So Jillian, in this situation as an educator, as a part of the establishment itself, how do you talk to your students? What can you do as an educator to at least keep things going forward? Yeah. We had a faculty meeting the morning after the shooting took place.
00:17:17
Speaker
I don't know that any educators are any more prepared to have these conversations with students than anyone else. I think that with the number of shootings that happen in the United States, you start to just wonder when it's going to happen, where you work.
00:17:48
Speaker
And so one of the things that I always talk to my students about is just, first of all, taking care of themselves, right? If they need to take a mental health day, take a mental health day. I always also remind them that my door is open and then remind them of all of the places on campus where they can go and seek out help.
00:18:18
Speaker
that seems very superficial on so many levels to me. So I don't know that any of us are ever prepared to have those kinds of conversations with students ever. I wasn't teaching on Tuesday, but on Wednesday in my class, and we have students that have siblings that go to MSU,
00:18:48
Speaker
And so I knew that many of our students were still reeling from it. So I took part of my class as an opportunity to actually come together. And we did some partnering work so that we actually had an opportunity to be physical with each other in a really gentle way. So we did a little bit of skinner releasing in class and spent about 45 minutes just
00:19:17
Speaker
actually sitting and talking and doing a little bit of bodywork just to help relieve any tension specifically in the shoulders and the neck just to remind ourselves to stay centered and to be together, which was the only thing that felt like I could do.
00:19:37
Speaker
Because we're dancers and because we communicate and we connect to the world around us so much through our physicality, it didn't feel like I should cancel class or stop the work that we're doing, but it felt really important to be together. I don't know if that's something.
00:20:01
Speaker
There's no good answers, right? Yeah, how many educators are prepared for those? And we have our own fears around those things happening on our campuses as well. And this is happening a year after there were threats against women at the University of Michigan, I'm sure Brooke remembers, where there were
00:20:27
Speaker
actual threats that women were being targeted across Central and North Campus. And just the fear that that sent through our department being 98% female on the University of Michigan tucked away in a really quiet corner of campus. It felt
00:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, it is scary. And my eight-year-old just did active shooter training at her elementary school in town as well. And so when you think about the younger generation, it being as normalized as tornado drills or fire drills, that this is what's happening in our schools.
00:21:13
Speaker
Yeah, like my daughter's email feed, they first all got email that says shots fired. And there was no reaction because they get those messages all the time. And I didn't understand, like, what do you mean? I looked at my own email since I'm faculty at U of M or at Michigan State still. And I see, you know, there's like eight or nine shooter or shots fired messages. And only when they had another message saying run, hide, fight.
00:21:40
Speaker
did they actually react, which is and now your eight year old is doing active shooter training. So yeah, it's really difficult. Are there any changes being made? Have you guys discussing any changes from like from Tuesday to now as far as what's going to happen as far as protocols getting into buildings, getting into the dance building, anything like that?
00:21:57
Speaker
Apart from just making sure that all of our external doors are shut properly, they're open seven in the morning until seven at night. But after 7 p.m., you have to be a dance major or dance faculty to have access to the building. The one good thing about the new building
00:22:20
Speaker
is that in each studio, there is an emergency button that you can push from the inside that will lock down that individual studio. So it will lock the doors, lock people in and lock people out. And then the fire department and the police department are automatically notified when that button gets pushed. So then you're just in a waiting scenario. I think the concern comes with
00:22:47
Speaker
just the amount of windows that are in the new building, which we love. We love being able to see nature and not feel completely closed off. But it does offer a little concern just having all of that open window space into each studio.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know if anyone's ever prepared for situations like those, but I know I can see how it's going to be an ongoing conversation, as terrible as it is to say, and to understand for each facility what is going to keep it the most safe. Hi,
Mental Health Resources for Dancers
00:23:32
Speaker
Steven again. So if you're trying to avoid the discussion about the mass shooting at Michigan State University, you can pick up the show now.
00:23:38
Speaker
Jillian, when it comes to mental health support, so whether it's something that's going on in the outside world or even just with the stresses that come with dance and education and pursuing a degree, what kind of mental health support does the University of Michigan have for dancers? Is there anything specific that's
00:24:00
Speaker
that's geared towards them. Is there anything that you're doing within your own classes where you're encouraging dancers to meet with mental, like some sort of mental health professional to help keep them centered and guided? Sure. Yes. We have a wonderful faculty member who is
00:24:22
Speaker
a wellness coach and a therapist on staff, and she's part of the ballet faculty. She also teaches the first year seminar, which is required for all of our incoming freshmen into the BFA program. And that first year seminar is really geared towards the transition from high school and studio work into dance and higher education. And through that, they are all
00:24:53
Speaker
made aware of all of the counseling that's on campus. So the University of Michigan has a CAPS program, which is, trying to remember what the acronym stands for, Counseling and Psychological Services, I believe. And on top of that,
00:25:11
Speaker
Because this faculty member is a certified wellness coach and therapist, she offers her time to all of our students and has specific office hours where they can sign up for counseling. And many of our students take advantage of that, as well as faculty. She's a really wonderful resource. I think that the one unique thing about
00:25:39
Speaker
the dance program and the faculty at U of M is that so many of us understand that physical and mental health are part of training because they have to be because of the stress of the job. And so I think that because we've all gone through
00:25:58
Speaker
having a performing career and all of the stresses that that has brought to our doorstep that offers us a level of understanding that we can then give to our students. It's a very unique relationship, the relationship that's built between student and
00:26:23
Speaker
a professor, especially in dance, just because you have to be so vulnerable all the time in dance because you're being asked to do something extremely difficult and physical, but also you have to connect emotionally with what you're doing. And so that forces people to walk a tightrope.
00:26:46
Speaker
And so to have come from a generation where mental health and physical well-being was maybe not the priority, it has made me hyper aware of what good practices are and what maybe concessions need to be made on a more regular basis and that that just helps increase the longevity of my students' dancing careers, hopefully. I'm hoping that that's true.
00:27:16
Speaker
I think back to when I was dancing growing up and how just preparing for competitions and back to back training, it would have been so great to have some sort of mental health support to be able to navigate
00:27:31
Speaker
just challenges that come up with competition and maybe not getting a turn perfectly and like how do you manage not being perfect in a dance routine or something going off or getting injured and how to navigate that after the performance and the impact it can have on your teacher or your choreographer or even your fellow dancers.
00:27:55
Speaker
So I think it's great what what you're doing and incorporating that because it is going to go a long way.
Evolution of Higher Education in Dance
00:28:03
Speaker
How do you feel higher education and dance has changed over the last decade? You know, what changes is your mission again making? You know, well, the last decade, I think it's been change is always slow, especially in higher education. I feel like there's it takes so long for anything
00:28:23
Speaker
to actually move forward. But it's been steady progress. I think that there's definitely been a greater push towards bringing awareness to mental health in higher education and
00:28:44
Speaker
And injury prevention, I think, has become more of a topic that has come about, which is wonderful. I think the things that have been slow, which they're still developing, but the idea of teaching from a DEI perspective, so diversity, equity, and inclusion, has been slow.
00:29:12
Speaker
more work needs to be done, but it has started. So I think it just depends on what institution you're at. But those conversations are happening. They need to be happening more. And I'm sure that Brooke, being inside of it, probably would have something else to say on that topic as well.
00:29:35
Speaker
Like Brooke, you're a double major, you're a senior, you have all these other projects outside of dance and you have a professional career coming up here. So yeah, from your perspective, how do you handle, like so far, do you feel you're doing well handling the mental stress? Do you find you have ways you've been given tools to help yourself with that? Or are there things that you wish you had more of that you may need to seek outside of school?
Managing Stress as a Dance Student
00:30:00
Speaker
Um, I think, well, first of all, I wish I was a dope major. I'm just a dance major and an education minor now. Um, but I think one of the beautiful things about the dance department is that it is so small and especially going to like a huge school like Michigan. You do feel like you have like a little support system when I can like walk into each, like at least
00:30:25
Speaker
over half of my teacher's offices and just be able to sit down and say this is what's going on. And I'm really grateful for that experience because I know a lot of students at Michigan aren't close with their professors. Like this is like not, you know, a common experience. But how do I handle the stress
00:30:47
Speaker
I think, well, I started to meditate. I try to lay down and just close my eyes and try to just empty my thoughts and just take a moment to pause because I think sometimes I'm just go, go, go, go, go. And then when I finish something, it's go, go, go again. So I think in this moment of my life, I'm really trying to just be grateful and to take in the moment so I don't miss the moment.
00:31:17
Speaker
Did I answer the question? Yeah, no, absolutely. So you think that, so it sounds like from your perspective with what you have going, if there was something you can change, is there something from a mental health perspective or a physical health perspective that you wish like, here's obviously this reality of how schools can give things to students, but how much money there is and resources, but is there something that you wish you could just like wave a magic wand and say, yeah, I wish we had more of this.
00:31:47
Speaker
I think in my college experience, I wish I would have just been more open to the other experiences and opportunities that the University of Michigan provides outside of the dance department so I could bring it back to the dance department and share different experiences that I've gathered outside of it. I think sometimes as artists, we can be so focused on our art that we don't
00:32:18
Speaker
do enough to get other experiences outside of it, if that makes sense. So yeah, for myself, I would wave that magic wand and I would redo that in my college experience. So Brooke, you mentioned before that you're a competition dancer.
00:32:39
Speaker
Yes. Okay.
Impact of Competition Dance Culture
00:32:41
Speaker
So one of the things that's been unique about competition dance, and this is a question, we'll talk about this with Jillian as well, but the competition dance world is a, you know, the intensity of the world is a relatively new phenomenon when you look at dance in general over the decades.
00:32:56
Speaker
And there's lots of discussion about the positives and negatives about that experience, especially in, you know, dance education, especially going from the high school years to college, what kind of the answer makes you out to be, but also the negative effects of mentally of competing in an artistic endeavor.
00:33:16
Speaker
What was your experience like with competition? I mean, obviously you were talented enough to, you know, be in a high level college program, but from the dance experience, having to get scored subjectively with different, you know, scoring rules and all over the place and being told, you know, getting, you know, getting high goals and high diamonds and the uranium awards and whatever it is. What is your experience like with that?
00:33:43
Speaker
um i think growing up as a competitive dancer like when i look back at old videos it's just turn, trick, leap, jump, show off and please the audience but i think now as a as a collegiate dancer and as a human and artist my number one goal is to educate the audience and to
00:34:10
Speaker
Not please the audience, but please myself and please.
00:34:15
Speaker
who I feel like I'm dancing for, because I never feel like I'm dancing for myself now. I always feel like I'm dancing either for ones that are coming after me or as in the younger generation or my ancestors that have allowed me to get there. And I think competitive dance, like even I remember being in conventions, I would never like the environment of just competing against
00:34:45
Speaker
my friends and it just didn't feel healing. It didn't feel like a community. And I went to like a majority African-American studio. So going into competitions and walking in and just feeling like the eyeball and feeling underestimated before I even step on stage. And I think for me, because I know
00:35:10
Speaker
because of my skin color, people are already gonna underestimate me and my technique. The first thing I have to whip out is a turn or a trick or a leg. Like, no, no, no, I can do it. I belong here. And I think that really does something to you mentally. And it makes you feel like you have to prove something you shouldn't have to feel like, especially in art, that you have to prove anything to anybody. Right.
00:35:39
Speaker
So yeah, I'm really grateful that being at the University of Michigan, I've been opened up to
00:35:47
Speaker
just the different ways that dance can exist, whether that's in activism or in other things that students are interested in. But I feel like I have more to say now, and I feel like my intention, my intention and the reason why I dance is the same, but how I express it and how I really think about the movements that I'm doing to convey a story or an idea has definitely
00:36:16
Speaker
changed within my body, and I'm really grateful for that. So Brooke, I want to come back to that. I'm actually going to ask you a leading question after. But Jillian, how does competition dance affect dancers as they try to learn in college from a professor standpoint?
00:36:37
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I feel like it's, you know, it's good to help prepare students who are coming into college. And because you know, you're, you're engulfed in the competition world, you're, you're competing, you're competing against your peers, other studios, other programs, and then you're coming into a university program where I feel like you have to kind of work together. It's
00:37:04
Speaker
It's different, you're not, well, I mean, I'm gonna let you explain that. So I know that there's different aspects to that too. Sure, yes. It's a huge transition. I think it's really difficult for students, especially those coming from highly competitive studios to walk into a dance department in higher ed.
00:37:31
Speaker
One, because they're so used to doing what they're told that it is a shock to the system for them to be asked how they feel. It takes some time for them to adjust to that.
00:37:57
Speaker
I teach from a really performative basis because that's where my background is, is in performing.
00:38:08
Speaker
I'm always hoping to improve the level of emotional engagement and embodiment that the student can take into their work, right? But that starts with them actually emotionally and mentally as well as physically integrating themselves into whatever physical movement gesture they're being asked to do.
00:38:37
Speaker
So it's really starting from the inside and working outward. And I think that the competition world really trains dancers to dance from the outside in. They're more concerned about the height of the leg, the depth of the split, right? That those outward aesthetics are more important than what the journey of the dancer. And that has to be an emotional journey because
00:39:06
Speaker
Otherwise, if it's not, the audience doesn't care. And so I think that that's the hardest transition is to understand that when you move into higher education, your job is no longer to get the highest score because no one is scoring you. No one is going to give you a 10.
00:39:25
Speaker
That's not something that exists beyond competition dance. Is that a conversation that you have with dancers? Because I know, growing up, with not just me, I'm just saying, in general, dancers, as they grow up, there's this perfectionism around movements. There's wanting to make sure everything is going exactly as it's supposed to. And how do you, with the,
00:39:53
Speaker
with the method that you teach, too, do you sit down with dancers when they're first admitted into your program and say, hey, guys, I want you to throw out everything you know, and we're going to start fresh. And this is where we're starting from. Like, how do you how do you move forward with what you know they're coming in with? Yeah, I the conversations happen regularly, but always first starting with movement because we're physical learners. And so for me to say something to them,
00:40:23
Speaker
it most of the time is not going to connect right away. So, backing that up with movement and then asking them for a feeling. And usually how that conversation starts is them making a judgment.
00:40:39
Speaker
on what they've just done. And me reiterating that I'm not asking for a judgment, I'm asking for a feeling, which forces them to go back into their body and have a different level of awareness within the movement. And one of the questions that has stuck with me, Doris Humphrey is famous for saying, what are we dancing about?
00:41:08
Speaker
I kind of always ask my students, well, what are you dancing about today? And you don't have to tell me, but you need to be aware of it. And it could be you woke up on the wrong side of the bed. And so you're going to bring that with you into the studio and into the work until you've let it go, but dance through it. Or you just had a really great night last night, and you're bringing all of that energy.
00:41:35
Speaker
into the studio with you. But yeah, constant and small conversations. And then with those students, some students really struggle with it. They really don't want to let go. Then I'll have a deeper conversation. And Brooke has taken my class, interestingly enough, not as a first year. She took my level one class, but as a junior.
00:42:00
Speaker
right? And so that might be a different, you might have a different perspective of that. But you know, it is very individualized. Some people grasp on and they jump into it and they move forward really quickly. And other people really struggle with it because they have a hard time transitioning away from their comfort zone.
00:42:23
Speaker
Now, one of the questions we ask a lot of professors and choreographers and other just owners of programs is how do you ensure that your dancers are staying healthy?
Physical and Mental Health Routines
00:42:37
Speaker
Like what are you doing on your part to make sure that dancers know how important it is to feel their best, to decrease the risk of injury, to recover well, what kinds of
00:42:51
Speaker
What kinds of things are you doing or sharing with them? Do you guys have team talks? Is there a nutrition professional on board? What do those conversations look like? Yes. The department has a cross-training studio. We have a connection with
00:43:15
Speaker
with MedSport that offers some dance-specific assessments. For first years, they get a baseline of everything where they're coming in at. They do a baseline concussion reading. If they've come in with any injuries, they're getting a personalized workout regimen in order to heal and then strengthen.
00:43:43
Speaker
beyond those injuries so that they can heal properly. Nutrition, again, that's all through the seminar class that they have in their first year. And then on a more daily basis, my students know that I have a cupboard full of snacks. So if they have forgotten or not brought enough food, that they can come in and grab some healthy snacks for me.
00:44:12
Speaker
I have taken dancers groceries before that have needed it. But then I think just keeping the level of conversation open. So being really clear with your professors, I think that about injuries that you are dealing with, pain that you might be in, and that can be physical or emotional.
00:44:35
Speaker
I'm always really receptive and I think most of my colleagues are really receptive to having students come in and going, okay, this happened and I'm not at 100%, okay, do what you can. If it's not a physical injury, do what you can and when you need to sit out, sit out. Or if it's an injury, have you been treated or seen by anyone, number one? What did they say? And then these are the things that we can do to help and that might be
00:45:05
Speaker
you are putting yourself in the corner and sitting and taking notes for the next week and a half because that's what you can do. Or you're going to not turn or jump. You're going to change and adapt any of the material that you need to in order to still participate. And then you're sitting out when you can't do everything.
00:45:28
Speaker
Brooke, what about you? What do you feel like you need to be doing to be your healthiest? Sleep, nutrition, what does that look like for you? I definitely need to work on sleeping more and making sure I'm not
00:45:44
Speaker
biting off more than I can chew. I'm a really generous person. So I like to say yes to everybody. But I realize that sometimes that's not good for me mentally. And if it's not good for me mentally, it won't be good for me physically. I'm also really grateful that I met my best friend Dr. K, freshman year. So whenever I think at Michigan, I've really learned how to listen to my body.
00:46:14
Speaker
And whenever I'm feeling just even like a little bit of something, I'll send Dr. K a picture of the injury, like this is what I think it is, you know, I'll do Google Dr. Plus relying on my anatomy training that we had my freshman year. And I'm actually seeing a nutritionist at UHS, University Hospital.
00:46:37
Speaker
UHS is somewhere at Michigan, UHS. University Health Services. Yes. A dietitian there, probably. Yeah, so I'm going to see a dietitian or a nutritionist on Monday to talk about how I can eat better because it's also a challenge because I'm a student. I live in the dorms and dining hall food. Sometimes all you get is some Chinese food and pizza, but that's not always the best thing to eat.
00:47:07
Speaker
But you know, you did your work.
Founding Black Scholars in Dance
00:47:10
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm gonna shift gears a little bit because Brooke, I'm dying to know a little bit more about the Black Scholars in dance. I want to know how it came about. I want to know your inspiration behind it. I want to know where you hope to take it. Tell us about this because I know you guys also have your own Instagram too, which is really cool. But I, you know, what kind of opportunities is this opening up for dancers? And tell us about it.
00:47:40
Speaker
Well, I remember when I was applying to the University of Michigan's dance department, I reached out to some African-American students, dance majors that actually left the department, and they were discouraging me to come to the department. And I just, I questioned why they left and why they didn't think
00:48:07
Speaker
It was their responsibility to make it better for the next African-American dancer to come. So I remember my freshman year, I was feeling really lonely, not only with adjusting to college, but the lack of diversity at the University of Michigan that spreads itself in every department that every student feels. But my inspiration for creating Black Skies and Dance was wanting to have a community
00:48:36
Speaker
of Black dancers, not only in the department, but for students.
00:48:42
Speaker
across Michigan that, you know, love dance but didn't decide to pursue it. So, and then again, sorry, hopefully I'm not rambling. My number one goal was to just allow younger Black dancers to feel like Michigan was accessible to them despite the 4% of Black students that are at Michigan. So with that being said, I was driving to Detroit School of Arts
00:49:12
Speaker
um to take classes and to just meet the students and to talk to them about college and dance in college and to just be a role model that you can do it too because I wish in my freshman year there that I wish there was something like that that kind of
00:49:32
Speaker
showed me that I belong here and that you know, I mean at least for me, I'm a big believer in always making something
00:49:43
Speaker
better than when you came in for the next generation. And I remember we all, so it's Black History Month at Michigan or it's Black History Month. And Nikki Giovanni, a civil rights activist and poet came and she was talking about why she chose going to Virginia Tech to teach. And she's gotten a lot of pushback saying like, why didn't you go to a historically black college and really,
00:50:11
Speaker
be a support for black students at that type of school. But she spoke so highly and about the importance of integration and showing people that like if we don't break the system by coming, like it's going to remain broken. So my number one goal for black scholars in dance is just to show black dancers that.
00:50:34
Speaker
Michigan can be a home for them and that we can continue making the numbers bigger. So my dream is for BSID to become like a black student union for the department and for the diversity numbers to just increase within the department.
00:50:52
Speaker
So are the dancers that are part of this, are they within the dance program at the University of Michigan, or can it be dancers from outside of the university as well that are getting involved? Right now, our members are within the dance department, but I do have a lot of support from students
00:51:14
Speaker
outside of the dance department. So I'm thinking by the end of this year I really do want to open executive positions up to anybody at Michigan, but to let them know like one of the number one goals is to increase the diversity within the department. And I hope to also spread BSID to other
00:51:40
Speaker
collegiate campuses because I know that Michigan isn't the only school with this problem of a lack of diversity in higher education, especially in dance. I've reached out to Karen Prahl. She teaches Dunham and African diasporic techniques at Wayne, and I was talking to her about Black scholars in dance, and she said, oh, we need that too. So obviously,
00:52:06
Speaker
it's a problem and I believe that black dancers and you know any dancer with the pink, purple, white, black or green that's my mom always says that they feel like they you belong in whatever space you want to be in. Right. Yeah representation definitely matters, especially within the dance world in the arts world. So what you're doing is is going to be very impactful. Thank you.
00:52:34
Speaker
So Jillian, the School of Music, Theater, and Dance has put out a lot of professionals in the performing arts world over many years now.
Career Preparation at University of Michigan
00:52:42
Speaker
So obviously that's a big step. This is a, you know, the school has a very important position to help take these dancers to the next level.
00:52:51
Speaker
So, from that perspective, what's the perspective from the dance educators in helping them prepare for that world? What kind of tools do you have to give them to help them to be successful in the next level? I think the first question is, where does each individual person want to go?
00:53:16
Speaker
I think that I'm not interested in creating a world of automatons or dancers who are only built for one kind of area within the dance umbrella. And so I teach a course called Senior Seminar, which is for all the seniors. Brooke just took it last semester.
00:53:42
Speaker
I try to bring in a number of guest artists from different walks of life within the dance world. They all have different experiences and different professional careers in order to give the students a broader perspective of what is possible. Obviously, training physically is important if they want to enter into a performing career.
00:54:11
Speaker
And having a range of experiences and physical practices that they take is important. But since I took over teaching this course, one of the major things that I changed about it was actually talking about how to support yourself as a gigging artist after graduation. I think it stems from
00:54:40
Speaker
no one having that conversation with me and being stuck in a huge metropolis and living on a can of food a week and like multiple roommates and multiple jobs. And so just having the being really open with the students about budgeting logistics of where they live compared to where they work or where they want to work, putting themselves in a place that they actually want to be in.
00:55:10
Speaker
the different types of day jobs that they can have to support themselves while they're pursuing a career in dance, as well as starting a retirement plan and looking broadly on how that works and how that is an important step when moving out of higher ed and into the real world.
00:55:39
Speaker
We offer those conversations. We have those conversations with our students, I do. And I think many of the other faculty do as well. But really, it's about getting to know each individual student and helping them on the path that they want to be on.
00:55:58
Speaker
If I'm not the right person to help them, I hope that I can find someone else that can be that mentor for them. I don't know everything. I have a very specific experience to me. It's helpful to some people. It's not helpful to others. But my goal is to, at the very least, put them in contact with someone working in the places that they want to work so that they have a contact and they can start that networking process.
00:56:26
Speaker
And the other part that I always tell them about networking, because it's such a huge part of our job, knowing someone in a position that you want to be in, is always networking not to get something out of it, but to offer something into that conversation or relationship. So doing it from a place of,
00:56:53
Speaker
graciousness and again, kind of like what Brooke said, entering into that wanting to make it a really positive thing, not because you're trying to get anything out of it, but just because it's the right thing to do. So yeah, so those are the few things that I do in order to prepare students.
00:57:17
Speaker
What are you looking forward to, Brooke, in your impending professional career?
Aspirations for Dance Career
00:57:22
Speaker
What's the thing that you're looking forward to most? Well, actually, right now, I am in year one of Dunham Technique Certification, so I am trying to become certified. I'm with a cohort of students who already have their masters and PhDs in dance.
00:57:42
Speaker
It's been like a really beautiful experience to be the youngest person in my cohort trying to just keep up and just learning so much from the people around me. So I'm really excited to embark on that journey. And what Madam Penny Gadboldo, who is a certified denim teacher at Michigan, always tells me is that a denim dancer never limits themself.
00:58:05
Speaker
So I'm honestly just really excited to see where God takes me. Because right now I think my goal is Broadway and to perform on Broadway, but I know that that's not the pinnacle. And I know that my love is giving back and with activism and education. So I'm ready for wherever this zigzag journey of life and dance takes me.
00:58:36
Speaker
Can you share a little bit, Brooke, about you were part of a Netflix movie, right? It's called Tyler Perry's Jazz Man's Blues. Can you tell us about the role you played in that movie? Because I'm going to be watching it probably shortly after. It was actually pretty crazy. My sophomore year when
00:59:06
Speaker
His class was still online. I was working at a gym, and my coworker was like, I'm going to Atlanta tomorrow to audition for Debbie Allen. I was like, what? My mom would never let me go. And my mom bought my ticket. I went to Atlanta Tyler Perry Studio. Sorry. Yeah, I'm good. And I auditioned for Debbie Allen.
00:59:36
Speaker
And a few months later, I got the call that they wanted me to be a showgirl in the Club Royale scene. So I was just dancing, but it definitely confirmed that, one, I could be a professional dancer and that I absolutely love performing.
01:00:01
Speaker
And I might even love performing like on screen as well. So did you have just so much fun with that experience? Yes, it was it was amazing to work with Miss Debbie Allen. I'm like smiling ear to ear just thinking about it. And then Tyler Perry, he's he's so funny. He would like do the media voice sometimes when we were like in the middle of filming. And
01:00:31
Speaker
It was a mind blowing experience and I'm truly grateful that I had it. So was that your first audition for a movie?
01:00:46
Speaker
Yeah, I was. I wonder if you had to give three of your top three tips on how to prepare for an audition like that for someone who is new to auditions. Do you have anything that stands out to you?
01:01:02
Speaker
Yes, Miss Debbie Allen said you should always have a double turn, a time step because I completely forgot all my time steps and I just had to shake my jazz hands and smile from ear to ear when she asked and I bought my double turn in a time step. Okay, and just kind of going into it.
01:01:23
Speaker
just being yourself, right? Yeah, be yourself and just know that like, your plan is already written out and if it's meant for you, it is. And if one door closes, another one will be opening sooner. So I would say sometimes rejection is just
01:01:41
Speaker
a higher source of protection. Absolutely. Jillian, I want to know what your next steps are too, because even with the program that you're working in right now, I'm sure there's something else that you may be brewing up in your head. Is there anything else that you have a passion for right now that you're looking forward to? Oh, yes.
01:02:08
Speaker
In 2018, I put on a concert at Hill Auditorium here that paired some historical dances with live music. And we partnered with the organ department as well as the early music ensemble. And then I just finished.
01:02:28
Speaker
a brand new collaboration with composer Griffin Candy that was performed at the Power Center. And again, it was pairing live music and dance. And so what those two experiences have taught me, because I'm always learning. I don't think that that stops. But that I really have a passion for bringing live music and dance together. And so
01:02:57
Speaker
We will be Griffin, Candy and I will be headed back into the studio together and we're starting work on a new project. I'm not quite sure what it's gonna be yet. But we didn't really know what this last one was gonna be either. And it worked out. But I think revitalizing live performance, especially after the past three years seems really important.
01:03:28
Speaker
because we spend so much time on screens that I find it really exciting to actually get out and go to the theater. And why not
01:03:39
Speaker
bring more than just a visual aspect to it. But bringing live music into the space totally changes my experience of things. And so I always like to bring that to others as well. So yes, live music and dance, that's what's next. And I hope that it continues. It was a really wonderful collaboration this past time with Griffin. And I'm sure that
01:04:02
Speaker
whatever we make, we will enjoy making it together. Yeah. Well, there's definitely a different energy in the performance when you have live music with dance. I mean, there was something, I watched your show and I had a chance to see that and it was just amazing. Just the extra pop, the extra
01:04:17
Speaker
I mean, all the performers themselves seem more energized by that collaboration. There's a level of danger. I think sometimes dancers really appreciate that inconsistency. And so when you're dancing with live music, you never know if the musicians are going to be
01:04:36
Speaker
Did they have too many espressos before they started playing or did they not have enough? And so there's that like, wait, are we going to stay together? I don't know. Let's see what happens. And then they're off to the races and it happens. But yeah, it does add a different kind of edge to that, which I find really exciting.
01:04:56
Speaker
Well, Jillian Brooke, I want to let you know that from the bottom of my heart, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Yasi and I really enjoyed having you today. Just you two are both amazing individuals and just the insight you gave us. I'm really thrilled to have done the show with you and thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Thank you both so much.
01:05:17
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks. And that's a wrap on this show. Remember, if you like what you're here, please click subscribe and maybe leave a review as well. For my co-host, Yasi Ansari, this is Stephen Karaginas, and this has been the Athletes and the Arts Podcast.