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The Athlete And The Artist w/ Tim Cunningham
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Join Yasi and Steven, along with Athletes and the Arts co-founder Randy Dick, as we talk to the quintessential Athlete and Artist, Tim Cunningham. He turned down a chance to play in the NFL to pursue a career as a professional jazz musician. Thirty years later, after recording 8 albums and touring all over the world, he is still going strong. He talks about the difficulty playing Division 1 football, maintaining his passion for music over the years, and staying healthy while playing the sax.
Tim's website: www.timcunninghammusic.com
Instagram: @tim.cunninghamsaxophonist
Facebook: @TimCunninghamMusicPage
Bio: When Tim Cunningham was faced with the choice between the football field or the musical stage, fortunately he chose the latter. Having played the saxophone for over half his life, Tim spent his college years at Michigan State splitting his time between playing defense and playing music. And although a football scholarship saw him through school, his passion for the sax has carried him well beyond, as he passed up an NFL contract and eventually pursued a career in music.
For decades the words "smooth , sultry, cool & funky" have been used to describe Tim's high energy and emotional stage show as his sexy blend of smooth jazz and soulful R&B connects with people of all ages, races and genres of music. This unique and versatile style has earned Tim the pleasure of opening for jazz greats Dave Koz, Norman Brown, Brian Culbertson and George Benson. On the flip side, his bumpin' R&B flavor has on occasion paired him with Earth Wind & Fire, Cameo, Boyz II Men, Patti Labelle, Frankie Beverly, Jeffrey Osborne, and the late Luther Vandross.
Signed to Atlantic Records in 1994 Tim's first major label release, "Right Turn Only," featuring the efforts of Will Downing, Brian Culbertson, Kevin Whalum, and Bobby Lyle was released in 1996. It's featured single, "This is the Life," hit #19 on the Smooth Jazz Chart and received much international airplay. Tim's additional CD credits include "Sax Change Operation", "A Change in Altotude", "Waiting For Love", "Inner Peace", and "Manchester Road" which was picked up by Nite Breeze Music/Universal in 2008. His 2011 release entitled "Reflection", features a cool collection of original tracks packed with smooth grooves and emotional ballads. In 2012 Tim recorded and released "Tim Cunningham Live" where he covered a collection of some of his favorite songs.
In 2019 Tim hosted and performed in the 1st Annual Smooth Jazz Cruise on Land in St. Louis. This inaugural festival featured Brian Culbertson, Eric Darius, Grace Kelly and Erin Bode and was produced by Entertainment Cruises Productions and producers of the Smooth Jazz Cruise.
Tim's experiences bridge beyond the live stage to TV as he co-wrote and performed the theme song to 20th Century Fox's "Bertice Berry Show". He also appeared in the movie, "The Ghost Who Walks" as Officer Taylor, three episodes of "The Untouchables" TV series as The Saxophonist, BET's "Jazz Central and a commercial spot for Budweiser. In 2021 "Smile" co-written with Al Caldwell from Tim's "Waiting for Love" CD was featured in the movie, "The Job" written, directed and produced by Randy J. Goodwin.
In October 2022, after nearly a 10 year recording hiatus "Freedom" was released, with his new single, "Enough Said" (remix) climbing the Smooth Jazz Network , Radio Wave and Smoothjazz.com charts.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Athletes and the Arts podcast. I'm Stephen Karaginas, joined today by my co-host, Yasi Ansari, and our Athletes and the Arts co-founder, Randy Dick. Athletes and the Arts is a consortium of 17 different sports medicine and performing arts medicine organizations. So if you want to hear more information on performing arts medicine, please go to our website at athletesandthearts.com.
Meet Tim Cunningham: From Football to Jazz
00:00:44
Speaker
So today we have an athlete and an artist, Tim Cunningham. He went from playing college football at Michigan State University to turning down the NFL to pursuing a career as a professional jazz musician and recording artist. Over 30 years later, he is still at it. So Tim, thank you very much for being on the show today. How are you doing today? You're doing great.
00:01:06
Speaker
Great. So you you started off in football at a very young age and your career also coincides with having a music career as well. So how did music fit in with football and athletics when you were growing up? Interesting because um I actually started playing football when I was in the fourth grade and that was ah flag football. I played four games because it was I was ah being flagged for you know knocking, because you could make contact back then. it it was different It was a different kind of flag football, trust me. It was pads, helmets. I mean, we had full gear on. But it was still only flags, but you could make contact, but you you could you you had to grab the flag from the you know obviously the player's side. And if you hit the person too hard and knock them down, that was a penalty.
00:01:58
Speaker
So I got flagged for quite a few notes. And I got frustrated, so I didn't want to play anymore. But I was too young to play tackle football. So I didn't get to tackle football until three years later in seventh grade. And around that time I had started playing an instrument. I started playing the drums in the sixth grade. My brother was a high school, ah played drums in high school and also played the trombone. So that was my incentive there. And so I played drums in sixth grade, got to seventh grade and I signed up for tackle football. And I also started playing the saxophone in 1974. So it's been 50 years this year since I started playing.
00:02:42
Speaker
And so the tackle of football was going pretty well for me. I had a coach from Michigan State. ah He played back in the 50s. His name was John Lewis. And I played for him for two years in seventh and eighth grade. But at the same time,
00:02:56
Speaker
the the instrument, the saxophone was going really well for me, playing playing the instrument. So I was taking it home every day, I was practicing, also playing basketball at the same time, football and playing, I was running track and in junior high school.
Tim's School and Sports Journey
00:03:14
Speaker
So I had a lot going on with with the instrument, but it was it would always seem to be more important to me than the sports. I got to ninth grade,
00:03:26
Speaker
Then we had varsity football. So back in in Lansing, Michigan, where I grew up, ah middle school, we didn't have middle school at that time. We had junior high school. So junior high school was 7, 8, 9. High school was 10, 11, and 12.
00:03:43
Speaker
I happened to be in a um a program in the sixth grade that was trying to, it we it was like a a testing ah for to to start the middle school situation. So they brought me from fifth grade And they had these two classes of kids or were sixty roughly 60 kids. And we went over to the junior high school, although we weren't supposed to be there. But it was like like I said, they were just kind of testing it out to see what what would what would it be like for sixth graders to be in um in a middle school situation.
00:04:17
Speaker
So later on, probably four or five years later, they created middle school, they killed the junior high school, they killed all the sports in junior high school. So middle school has had no sports whatsoever, because we used to compete in junior high, we used to compete football, basketball with all the other junior high schools. Wow. Almost like high school, just on the lower, level um you know, in the middle, in a junior high school level. yeah So seventh and eighth grade was like junior varsity and ninth grade was varsity. So it was, it was really, really different.
00:04:47
Speaker
But anyway, um I got to high school and my band director from seventh and eighth grade, and seventh eighth and ninth grade, he moved over to Everett. His name was Amell Island. And so I got a chance to stick with him for the last couple of years of my high school in my in my high school days. And we had a jazz band, which was, we were very fortunate because Most schools didn't have one. I think Sexton had one, but Eastern and Waverly and some of the other schools in the area did not have a jazz band. They all had concert and and
College Football Challenges and Choices
00:05:25
Speaker
marching band, which I was never a part of because I was playing football. um So um I was getting recruited. Well, first of all, I didn't want to play high school football. but I never never
00:05:36
Speaker
After ninth grade and junior high, I never signed up to, when I when i went to high school, I never signed up for the to the team. and i did I didn't go out for the team. um um But a friend of mine said, hey, and I played against him in junior high school and I was a decent player, but I just didn't want to play because I was sick of the two-a-day practices and just, you know, football is very rugged. and It was hard.
00:06:04
Speaker
So he said, hey, we need some players when we got like 40 players, we really need some players. So I came out for the JB team. I was, ah I was a starting JB quarterback. I had never played quarterback before. We were riding a veer. I know. We were riding a veer. Throwing it in there, huh? Yeah, just threw me right in into the fire. But we were running a ah veer, just you know kind of like the way the way Oklahoma ran their offense back in the day in the 70s. And so there was a lot of passing going on and in the system.
00:06:33
Speaker
um So the first game we went down to Jackson and played, and then the following week, um they asked me to come up to varsity because I was playing quarterback and safety. But they asked me to come up to varsity and play safety in the next game against Jackson Parkside. And in that game, the first half we're losing 25 to nothing.
00:06:59
Speaker
So our first two tailbacks ended up getting injured. And at halftime, the coach says, hey, you're going in a tailback. I'm like, wait a minute. So he said, look, you know the plays. You're a quarterback on JB. You know where the tailback goes. You know where the fullback goes. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. you know i I do know where they but everybody goes who I had to. So I scored three touchdowns in that game.
00:07:25
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, you know, here come the letters from all colleges and all this stuff, but I still was focusing on my my instrument. my Like I said, I had no interest in playing football, but I had an opportunity through my high school band director to possibly go to Florida A and&M on a scholarship to play my saxophone because I was really interested in it.
00:07:47
Speaker
So, but here comes, you know, I got recruited by like four big 10 schools, several mid mid-American schools. Wow. Tyro Willingham was recruiting me to go to Central Michigan. And I really liked him. He's just a class guy. He was really, really cool. He came, came a couple of times to see before and play basketball and all this kind of stuff. And then when I got to As I mentioned before, in January of 1980,
00:08:18
Speaker
um Daryl Rogers left with Daryl's own estate, so they hired Muddy, and he had to come up with a whole new staff. Of course, Tyron William was an ex Michigan State player. so And he was coaching defensive backs at the time at Central. So when Muddy got the job, he hired Tyron. So I followed Tyron to Michigan State because I was really i was really considering going to CMU because I didn't really think I was the Big Ten player. I really didn't.
00:08:49
Speaker
um So I ended up going to Michigan State. um And so I was a music major, playing my saxophone still. um And I didn't think I was gonna get a lot of playing time at at Michigan State. And I ended up going through, there were we were five deep pretty much at every position because back then, there were 99 scholarships.
00:09:13
Speaker
99. 99 scholarship. There's only 22 positions. Right. We were five and six deep at every position. Jeez. And I mean, of course transferring was, you know, sitting out a year. So that was, that was, that was like out of the question for a lot of us. So, um, I actually broke through, um, as a freshman through five other players to finally get a starting job.
00:09:43
Speaker
at the in the Ohio State game of all games. So um as a running back or would you play? I'm sorry. i was I'm sorry. Let me go back. i I think they recruited me as a safety safety. Gotcha. OK. We're going to have free safety. So I went from free safety to outside linebacker Carl Banks. Him and I were roommates. Oh wow. stay Carl and I met on a recruiting trip at Wisconsin. huh And we were in this back then, they kept the recruits in the same room. So we were talking back and forth. He was from Flint and I grew up in Lansing. So he's like, hey, where are you going to school? And he got recruited by everybody. right I mean, just everybody. So he ended up going to Michigan State. So we ended up being roommates at Michigan State.
00:10:26
Speaker
And so our freshman year, he's an outside linebacker. I'm at Free Safety. They moved me to outside linebacker. And Carl and I were, um the movie, The Big Chill, there's there's a clip.
00:10:42
Speaker
There's a Michigan state Michigan clip in that game. That's the game. That was my freshman year. And the guy who started in front of me, Carl Williams, he was actually, I think he got an interception in that game and it's in that movie. So they moved me from outside linebacker, Kurt Schottenheimer.
00:11:03
Speaker
who was Marty Schadenheimer's brother was the outside library's coach. He said, hey, let's get this guy over to, let's see if we can get him to play. And Sherman Lewis said, hey, we've been watching you on film and practice and we're gonna try to see if we can get you in somewhere, so.
00:11:21
Speaker
there were there was a senior and three sophomores that were at strong safety. They all got a chance to play down towards the end of the season and we're playing on Ohio State, I'm thinking like game number nine or eight eight or nine. So he said, tim yourre coach Willingham said, Tim, you're going at halftime of the game, in the Ohio State game.
Choosing Music Over NFL
00:11:41
Speaker
And this is back when,
00:11:44
Speaker
um What's his name? Was a quarterback. He was really good at Ohio State. He ended up getting... Oh, Schlester? Schlester, yes. He was very good. So I played the rest of that game, then I started the last three games, which was like Minnesota, Iowa, and somebody else. And I ended up getting two interceptions. um And then I started every game my sophomore, junior, senior year.
00:12:08
Speaker
So I was extremely fortunate for somebody who didn't even want to play. high school I was going to say for someone's being dragged along in his career, huh? Yeah. And that's incredible. So the the bad thing about it, though, for me was I was so involved in the football. Now, you know, being a starter, um I kind of let my horn go. I let the instrument go for about a year.
00:12:35
Speaker
I was still playing. um you know I switched my major. I went from music to telecommunications because I really didn't want to teach or anything like that. And I couldn't see like where was I going to go with this music degree. So I let that go. And then but like how much time you had to play your instrument in a music degree. know Aren't you like isn't it like hours and hours that you wouldn't have if you're playing football.
00:12:57
Speaker
Yeah, and see, one one that when when I started taking my core classes in music, they said, hey, you got to take, you got to take piano, you got to take all these one credit courses. Right. and out And they're like, hey, this is going to be at least a five or six year program for you to get your degree. I'm like, look, the scholarship is only good for five. So I got to switch. And um telecommunications was something else that I was interested in. My brother worked for WKAR.
00:13:24
Speaker
on campus and he was in the he he did the lights at WKAR. And it's something that I really liked. So I was i got my degree in telecommunications, ah TV and radio. But um but i went after after the 84 draft, I didn't get drafted. I made an honorable mention all all Big Ten my sophomore and senior year. um But I didn't get drafted, but the Cowboys came.
00:13:51
Speaker
and offered me a free agent scholarship, I mean free agent contract. Um, they offered me the minimum salary, which was $40,000. Oh my God. wow Times have changed. Oh my God. So it was 40, 50, 60 for three years. That was the contract. And the $10,000 was every player in the NFL got that, that bump. So there was, it was nothing special. Um, and they said, you know, Hey, we'll give you a thousand dollars signing bonus.
00:14:23
Speaker
and I was sitting at the table and I wasn't done with school. I had 20 more credits to finish. And if you sign the contract, you lose the extra year in your scholarship. I mean, it was that extra fifth year, which is, you know, even if you're not playing, you still get to finish up school. So I said, you know, this is a no-brainer for me. I came here to get my degree. That's what I'm gonna do. So I'm turning this down. Wow. Two years later,
00:14:51
Speaker
The strike came in the NFL. After the strike was over, they changed the minimum salary from 40,000 to 160, so it quadrupled. Now, had it been 160?
00:15:09
Speaker
And the story is maybe two or three or $4,000, maybe a different story, but um that wasn't the situation. So I just opted to finish up school. And then I immediately got back to playing my instrument. And and I said, Hey, you know, I'm going to try to see if I can get a record deal. And I ended up getting a record deal with Atlantic Records in 1994. And the album came out in 1996. So That's kind of how things um worked out for me in my life. And and I'm still working. um I still play all the time. But you know my wife and I got married in 1992 down in the ah St. Lucia Jazz Festival in St. Lucia. um And we moved to here to St. Louis. I followed Lonnie Young.
00:16:00
Speaker
who was another guy who played with me at Michigan State. him and Him and Carl played high school football together at Flint Beecher. And I followed him down here. He was playing for the Cardinals. He got drafted in the 12th round and ended up having a nice career. He ended up playing 11 or 12 years here in the NFL. So I followed him down here. He left and we've been here ever since and for it's been 30 years.
00:16:29
Speaker
You played a lot of sports in junior high and high school. Do you think that helped you as far as athletics in general? Because these days, of course, people talk about specialization. You basically have to play football all the way through, or every sport is pretty much one thing, and that's it. But back then, everybody played three or four sports, and it seemed to make everybody a better athlete. yeah um And for you, it that probably helped you not burn out on it either, it sounds like, because you're that Yeah, um I had a coach in high school, one of ah another Michigan State guy, Leon um Williams. He was the track coach, but umm so assist assistant track coach. And he said, hey, you know you know you really should get out here in the track because it's you know it's going to be your to your advantage to you know to try to increase your speed or whatever. And when you when you go out go out to Michigan State and play football, and sure enough, it really was a big help because
00:17:25
Speaker
When players get better in the offseason, that's when you get better, is working in the offseason, lifting weights, running, so on and so forth. Just like Coach Willingham, we talk about football all the time. And one of the things that he keeps he kept reiterating was, you know why do these kids in the South and on the West Coast, why are they so fast?
00:17:52
Speaker
He says, hey, bacon they can go outside and train the all year round. Kids up north have to you know find a facility. Fortunately, not a lot of high schools and stuff have like weight training programs and that kind of thing, and indoor gyms and that kind of stuff. But back then, in the 70s and 80s, when I was growing up, they just didn't have that kind of stuff for us. So you know these kids in Florida, they can they can run all year long. So it was a big, big difference.
00:18:22
Speaker
And so, you know, football was great. I had a great time doing it, but man, it it's, especially when I look at that, the movie where, what was was it? um Where they, the guys were suffering so many head injuries. Oh, concussion.
00:18:41
Speaker
Yes. Oh my goodness. Cause I thought about myself cause I was a really hard hitter and I, you know, we used our heads back and big time. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm really glad now when I think about it, that I didn't, that I didn't go onto the NFL, but I think I would have, uh, my head, my head might've been much by now how because they were it was, it was, I mean, we just, the the equipment wasn't up anywhere near what it is now.
00:19:08
Speaker
you know I remember cracking a helmet when I was in high school. so yeah Wow. so may also so I was going to say um that even with $40,000, what came to mind for me when they offered $40,000 is what's going to happen when there's an injury. Yeah, exactly. Like a lifelong injury. like That's not going to cover a lifelong injury. No, not at all.
00:19:35
Speaker
and You know, I mean, $40,000 in that day was obviously good money, but I didn't think it was that great of money for playing football because when I looked at Carl, because Carl was the third guy drafted in the 84 draft in the first round, he got 2.4 million for, I think it was a four year contract. So he was getting like 600,000 a year. And I'm looking at 4,000, 40,000. Wow. What a disparity. I'm like, there's no way. yeah I just,
00:20:06
Speaker
You know, thinking back, I'm like, why, why aren't they offering at least um every guy like a hundred thousand dollars, you know, and then like I said, up four years after the strike, two years later, it's, it's a one 60.
00:20:20
Speaker
so So Tim, let me ask you this. You mentioned that ah the ability to get better during the out of season for sports. Is there anything you could do as a musician to apply that concept to getting better with your instrument?
Physical Demands in Music
00:20:38
Speaker
Are there things that you could do either playing a different instrument like cross training or doing particular exercises that might make you a better musician?
00:20:50
Speaker
Um. The two things that I correlate with music and sports is, you know, you're your cardio is like, because playing the instrument is, you know, you're breathing you're constantly breathing and you're your lungs are getting really well developed. My lung capacity is incredible just from playing the instrument. And it did help, I think, you know, for me personally, I think it it helped me when I was, you know,
00:21:22
Speaker
when um When I was on the track, cause i ran I ran the 100, 200 and I did the high jump and the long jump. so I think the instrument helped me big time and as as far as my my lungs were and were were concerned.
00:21:36
Speaker
oh and would there be You said there were two, so long capacity would be one. Would there be something else that maybe um you could train as a musician to be a better player?
00:21:48
Speaker
And to be ah um to be a better athlete, you mean? No, to be a better musician. So things from the from the athlete side that you might do that that might help you be a better musician. Besides just practice. I mean, what do he what do you do to get better besides just practice? Well, well that that was really all there there was. Now, I will say this, being a musician,
00:22:16
Speaker
um I learned that daily practice was always, ah excuse me, the only way that you were going to actually get better. When you miss a day, you lose timing. Your timing time is so critical to your point.
00:22:36
Speaker
but The difference between a great player and an average player is it's all about timing. You can listen to how fluid somebody who is ah you know plays every day, you can just tell how fluid they play, how how you know the time the timing is just so precise.
00:22:55
Speaker
versus someone who's not practicing every day or just starting, you can just tell you know the difference between the two. so I learned a long time ago as a young player to to play every day. and My teacher said, hey, even if you only pick it up for 30 minutes, you know it's really going to help you with your timing. so At one point in my career after college, when I decided to pick up my instrument again,
00:23:25
Speaker
I remember um there was a year that I just, I never, I never missed. I think I took maybe two days off playing and that might've been Christmas and Thanksgiving. But I just said, I'm gonna practice at least an hour, hour and a half to, and there were a lot, many days where I practiced an hour and a half, two hours a day. And I had read Charlie um Parker's book, it was called Bird.
00:23:53
Speaker
And they literally said he he was practicing 12 and 13 hours a day at at one point in his career in his career. And he started playing when he was 14. I started playing when I was 12, what's going on 13. And by the time he was about 17, he was already a virtuoso and within like three years. I mean, of course he had this amazing talent.
00:24:19
Speaker
But just hearing that somebody was practicing 11 hours a day was amazing because there's I mean as much as I love playing there was just no way I could I was, I was pretty much beat up after two hours, two and a half hours practicing there. I just, I couldn't do it anymore. I mean, as much as I love the instrument, I just couldn't imagine, you know, practicing that long. So, but, uh, definitely the, you know, as far as practice is concerned, when you're talking about, you know, as it correlates to to sports, yeah, every day.
00:24:56
Speaker
was something that you just needed to do in practice, practice, practice. it was that's That's the way you got better. you know like you said and and Like I said, in in the offseason, guys are you know running stairs and doing all this different. and Today, it's it's it's even better because with technology and with all the other research that has been done about um ah exercise, we now have the ability to get better in a shorter period of time. All these different types of, you know, tools, resources that we can use now to to get in. I mean, I'm not, I remember i like, like seeing guys, you know,
00:25:41
Speaker
put weights behind them and they're running with the weights and that that kind of stuff. There's all kinds of different things that you know that have that have been created to help guys get better a lot quicker. So so how much how heavy is your saxophone?
00:25:59
Speaker
um So my tenor is probably, oh, maybe 10, 15 pounds or something like that. So is there any concern about doing, I mean, or if if you're a saxophone player that's doing that, then you should probably be thinking a little bit about some strength training or upper body work to be able to handle that instrument while you're up there playing, correct? That's interesting you say that because certain neck straps,
00:26:29
Speaker
um that we, you know, that I've come across over the years are not very supportive. And when you got done playing, your neck would actually hurt. So, and it made me think about, you know, neck neck exercises, shoulder exercises. And even when I'm carrying my horns, like going through the airport, if I've got too much stuff on my shoulders, because I mean,
00:26:57
Speaker
nine times out of 10, I'm carrying my Alto and my Tender, I'm carrying both of them. And plus I have, usually have my ah my audio box, which has my microphone and all that kind of stuff in it. And it's a little heavy, it's about 20 plus pounds. So, you know, all three things that I'm carrying is roughly, you know, 30, 40 pounds. And if i'm If I go too far, if I'm walking too far, the next day I'm hurting. I'm really hurting. So it's you know it's it's very important that you have you know you know that you build some muscle in those areas to try to alleviate you know the problem. Because if you don't have any muscle there, it's
00:27:40
Speaker
Now, and I think about it when I'm when I look at and people people are amazed at how the wrestlers, you know, the professional wrestlers, how they are, you know, jump off the top of a turnbuckle and everybody hit the ground. It's like if they didn't have all that muscle there.
00:27:56
Speaker
They would be, they would really be. It's pretty rough, right? So yeah, the muscle that's really saving those guys. I mean, obviously the floor is, you know, very soft, but at the same time, I don't care who you are. You're jumping off the top of a turnbuckle and going, I mean, most of the time they're landing on their backs. You would be, you'd be like dead. So it's all that muscle that really absorbs the the the shock.
00:28:25
Speaker
So how did your jazz career start off? You mentioned that you got an album contract. How does that process work out? I mean, did you, like, days discovered you? Did you audition? Like, how does it come about where you get, you know, from like playing in college and playing football as well to all of a sudden being out in the world and signed with a label? So after college, I started playing again, as I mentioned, and then I decided I wanted to record to try to get a record deal, which was like one in a zillion chances because there were so many people trying to get a record deal. It was crazy. But I ended up doing a couple of demos. I sent those demos out to some record companies, didn't get any responses.
00:29:11
Speaker
um And I sent my demo to Atlantic Records. I'll never forget it. And they actually had, you know, the decency to send me a note back and say, hey, look, you know, we really like your materials, just not what we're looking for.
00:29:27
Speaker
So I decided to go ahead and do a full album. So I did my first album, and ah and then we did a second album. And I would use those albums as like a a demo. So I sent it to various people. I ended up in Chicago in 1992. In 1993,
00:29:48
Speaker
a this woman from Ebony magazine saw me And she said, you know, I really like your playing. I'm doing a story on the most powerful black women ah in business. And one of those women happened to be Sylvia Rhone. And Sylvia at the time was the president of Atlantic Records. Oh, so she said, hey, I can get it to her.
00:30:16
Speaker
And I said, cool. So she got it. She she sent it to her. I happened to be working with Bobby Lyle at the time. I did some I did a couple of ah gigs with him. He was on Atlantic Records. So he said, hey, Tim, out you know, I know you got your demo up there. I'll i'll try you know to use as much um of my pull to help you get a record deal. And so she invited us up to come up to New York and and do a um um a showcase. So we had to pay for flights. I had to fly the whole band. And, you know, we had to rent a facility to have the showcase in New York. I mean, rental car, all this stuff, all these expenses. We get up there and she doesn't show up. man Oh, man. So she said, I apologize, you know, but, you know, please, if you guys could come back, you know, you know, I'll ill i'll come.
00:31:16
Speaker
So we, you know, spent the money again. We probably spent, you know, 12, $13,000 on those two trips and got up there a second time. No show. Second time. So, oh, so I guess he felt sorry for me. And then, you know, not too long after that, she said, Hey, I'm going to give you the record deal. Yeah.
00:31:39
Speaker
just oh to make up was more hu yeah yeah So that was 1994 and the album came out in 96. So between 94 and 96, we recorded the album in like six different cities. And this is back in the day, of two-inch tape. There was no hard drive. right So we had to buy the two-inch tape. yeah know One one ah one ah piece of the tape was like $150.
00:32:10
Speaker
And you can get maybe three or four songs on it. So we end up recording in LA, Atlanta, Detroit, St. Louis, which you know where I'm at, and Atlanta.
00:32:25
Speaker
so and we had some you know will Brian Culbertson was was brought on to do a couple of songs. And he did two songs. Bobby Lyle did a song. As I mentioned, he was on Atlantic Records.
00:32:40
Speaker
And ah um Kirk Whalen's brother, Kevin Whalen, he ended up singing a song on the album. So the album came out in 96. And then right before the album came out, Sylvia left the label. She went over to Elektra, which was all owned by Warner Brothers. so um And then the new guy came on. He didn't want to renew my contract for a second album. So they only did one album.
00:33:09
Speaker
And then after that, and it started going, I just started, you know, just i did what I did before i was just producing my own my own projects. And then two years later, Atlantic Records completely dropped the jazz label. They had no jazz label, what, since 19, I wanna say about 98, 99, they let the jazz label go. And then after that, several smooth jazz stations started going by the wayside.
00:33:39
Speaker
Chicago, WNUA, the station in Detroit, WJZZ, just all over the country, stations were dropping like crazy. So there's only a few smooth jazz stations left, and the ones that are that have popped up are now online. So thank goodness for the internet, because that's that's really what's keeping music going.
Adapting to the Evolving Music Industry
00:34:05
Speaker
And that's what's keeping your career going then? Is that maybe online access then? Yeah, like online for sure. Um, cause both, most artists now are releasing stuff under their own labels. Sure. they're And they're hiring, um, uh, record promoting companies to, you know, send their stuff off to various radio stations to get airplay and to, you know, from that you can hopefully get with an agent and book you know some events that's that's pretty much how it works now. Everything is so different with the internet, so different. But like I said, it saved the genre in my opinion, and because like I said, there's not too many radio stations left. I think there's one in LA, San Francisco,
00:34:51
Speaker
Yeah, I was going to say there is one in the Bay Area that I'm familiar with. Yeah. KKSF or something like it's KK set San Francisco, something like that. I can't remember the call letters, but they're still around and there's a couple of ones that there's one in Florida.
00:35:07
Speaker
Um, but man that I mean the new york station was really cool. I forgot the name of it, but they they've been gone for years So never quite realized that now you bring it all up. It does make sense jzz is why I listened to a lot when I was uh in med school Yeah. Alexander Hines and, uh, and Elliot. Yeah, sure. I never even thought about that until you just mentioned it. Yeah. So, so mainly your main income is then probably from live performances and right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And cause nobody's buying CDs anymore. And shimmy isn't paying attention. I bought one in Carmel, Tim. I bought one. Yeah.
00:35:47
Speaker
ah Yeah, it's all about streaming. so But still, you know streaming is cool. It's just not a lot of profits you can get from it. I mean, you sell a million streams. you know I forgot what the number was. It was like $20,000 and $30,000. But if you can get on the air,
00:36:07
Speaker
and ah get your music played on the radio. I mean, that's where the money is. It's it's still to this day, it's where the money is. um My keyboard player that produced most of the CDs that projects that I did, Darren Stewart, him and I got a chance to do a theme song for a TV show for Ortiz Berry back in 93. And every time that song played on the um television, you know, we got royalties from it.
00:36:36
Speaker
and i i i never forget we were getting every quarter we were getting him and I both are getting $5,000 a quarter just from that that one song and keep in mind that's we split that up three different what actually is actually split four different ways so him and I were getting like 30 I wore 35 percent. There's another guy getting another 20 something percent and another guy got 10 percent. So that was of that 30 percent. was We were still getting like $5,000 a quarter just on the Royalty because every time it played in every market, she was in 94 percent of the market, US market. So on all those stations, they pay the royalties for that song.
00:37:19
Speaker
Even the little bumpers that went back, know the five and 10 second bumpers that went in and out of commercial, that was they paid us for those as well. um and That was just the songwriting part of it.
00:37:32
Speaker
So the publishing is equal to, and sometimes double the the the writer's credits. So Fox was the ah company that produced her show, 20th Century Fox. They took every single percentage of the, the the even though they didn't write the song, they took all the publishing from us.
00:37:55
Speaker
So they made, you know, thinking about what Darren and I were making, it was probably about 30, $40,000 a quarter that song was making, to maybe 25 or whatever it was. The Fox made that money. they they made They took the publishing. So there's always, what a lot of people don't understand is there's there's credits for the writer and then there's credits for the publishing. And like when, um um what's his name? Sold Motown.
00:38:24
Speaker
Very Gordy, very Gordy. He kept the publisher. Oh, yeah, he kept all on the publishing because the publishing is so valuable. And after a songwriter or publisher after your death, you still you still get credit 80 years after your death is is until those songs go to what is it called the public domain public domain? Yes.
00:38:54
Speaker
Yeah. 80 years. And they extended that. It used to be, I want to say it was 50 or 60, now it's 80 years after you write. So there's a lot of money to be made. if you can get ah If you can get a hot song on the radio, it's a lot of money to be made versus the streaming.
00:39:11
Speaker
So Tim, we were hoping that there will be some medical folks that will be listening to some of this. If you as a performing artist and musician wanted to talk directly to them and say, this is what we need, this is what performing artists or saxophone players, this is what we need from you.
00:39:31
Speaker
Um, because maybe they don't know exactly what your lifestyle is and what you do. What would you tell them? What would be the top two or three things you would say, uh, we, we need from you. We need you to know about this and you need to help us with this. Well, I'm just thinking about some of the things I go through in terms of, uh, being on stage. And as I mentioned before, like walking through the airport with a, with an instrument. Um, and I noticed as we get older, you know, our hands.
00:40:01
Speaker
you know that becomes a problem um um I think that we probably need some type some some way,
00:40:13
Speaker
um and I've never never heard anybody say anything about it in terms of what what kind of therapy can we do as musicians? what can What can somebody come up with for our hands, our shoulders? You know, when I think about, you know, tubal players that are carrying these sousaphones on their backs, you know, they've got to, I mean, there's got to be, because it's it's it's physically, you know, tough to play an instrument, especially when the bigger their instrument that it is. I mean, obviously,
00:40:47
Speaker
The worst is like ah somebody playing a baritone saxophone. I remember my brother telling me that somebody actually marched with a bass saxophone, which is one and a half times as big as the baritone sax. I mean, that thing is almost to the floor, depending on how tall you were. So that was physically, I mean, just challenging. So where, I mean, I think for me, I think the challenge is my fingers. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of pain in my fingers, but every now and then I do. So what, where can I, you know, what can I do in terms of, you know, some, some, some, some type of therapy or,
00:41:32
Speaker
or something to to resolve my issues. And how many how many hours a week would you say right now um you practice, you play?
00:41:46
Speaker
Whether it's play or you're doing a gig or you're practicing, how many hours a week would you say you do that? So on average, you know, when I'm playing a gig, i'm usually that's anywhere from two to three hours and practice during the week is probably more another four or five hours.
00:42:05
Speaker
because I don't typically don't practice on the day that I'm gigging and uh and I play on Sundays that I play at church on Sundays so I typically don't practice on those on Saturdays or Sundays or from on a Friday but um so yeah I would probably say roughly ten hours a week so my hours week just what year yeah plan aton yeah yeah okay and and So once you get done, is there any kind of routine that you go through as a recovery kind of concept?
00:42:39
Speaker
Or um is there any nutrition things you think about, any kind of, you know, once you get, you get done with your gig at 10 or 11 o'clock at night, what what happens? Is there any pattern that you follow to try to make it easier the next day? So one thing that happens for me when I get home after driving, just like last night, Saturday night, I did a Friday night at a private party. um When I get out of car, my back is usually really stiff.
00:43:10
Speaker
And that it almost feels like I've played a football game. It's really weird. However, I do play pretty hard. I play night on stage, especially think down towards the end of my show. I ah put a lot of effort and a lot of energy into what i'm doing and it's and it's physically draining I remember several times waking up the next morning and just being like, there's like no way I could play today. I'm just so like burnt out.
00:43:44
Speaker
um but now it that That used to happen to me probably, I think I've i've seen a a difference between over the last year or so, where I don't have that feeling the next day. And I'm i'm just wondering if it has anything to do with you know supplements that I'm taking. Is it something to do with the food that I'm eating now? I eat probably a lot more protein. um I used to kind of try to stay away from carbs, but I know carbs are good for energy.
00:44:17
Speaker
So I'm like, I got, I eat more, a little bit more carbs now than I used to. Um, you know, just trying to balance weight and that kind of stuff. But the carbs seem to be helping me. I don't, I don't, it seems to give me more energy because like before, like I said, when I was a couple of years ago, when I was trying to watch those things, I was just, I was just drained and I just, I wasn't understanding why. So um I'm fortunate that I don't take any, um,
00:44:46
Speaker
high blood pressure medication or cholesterol medication, all I'm taking are some supplements. um And you know sometimes i yeahve we've got some daily, um just multivitamins that I take. And so I've been wondering over the last couple of years, and interesting you asked me that question because I've been wondering, it used to be so bad for me, but it's not anymore.
00:45:14
Speaker
Now it's not as not as bad. I mean, it's I'm still physically drained, but before it was really bad, but now it's not so bad. Yeah, it sounds like the attention you're putting into your supplements and your nutrition is working. So whatever you're doing, that sounds great. um Yeah. Carbs are definitely the number one source for energy and protein obviously helps for your your recovery yeah from a nutrition perspective. Now, Tim,
00:45:45
Speaker
Just out of curiosity, you know we had something called COVID, right? COVID came in 2020. When I was doing some research on your musical background, I noticed that you and your um the rest of your group were we're wearing masks on stage. so How did you guys navigate COVID? and in Did that hurt the career? Did that help it? Were you still performing regularly?
00:46:16
Speaker
No, it was bad for everybody. um Obviously, because what we do as musicians, we're always in a crowd. so The only things that we could really do were events outside.
00:46:29
Speaker
so And even even being outside though, people were not, they still were not, they were still afraid to go around too many other people.
Keeping Jazz Alive
00:46:40
Speaker
So that's when a lot of musicians, like even I'm talking about the the big name smooth jazz guys, Gerald Albright and some of these, you know, these guys were doing, you know, shows online. They were doing live performances online and asking people to donate.
00:46:58
Speaker
because you know they were obviously losing money. i was I'm still working a day job. So um I got laid off during COVID, um but I worked from home. um But I found another job about six months later. So for me, I was fortunate in that i don't I wasn't depending on the music full time.
00:47:23
Speaker
Um, but it had an effect on, uh, everybody. I mean, I know guys who were applying for, you know, federal aid and that, that kind of thing. Um, if you had an LLC, that's that kind of stuff, but yet had a huge effect on us. And then as it started to lighten up and people were getting a little bit more comfortable, um,
00:47:47
Speaker
people started coming out in droves because it it was almost like we'd been away from this so much. We need some therapy. We need something. We miss the music. But as a musician, you know I obviously couldn't wear a mask when I was playing, but my guys, i they all had masks on. yeah And then when I would leave the stage to talk to people or whatever between the breaks or you know coming into the the facility or leaving the facility, I would put my mask back on.
00:48:17
Speaker
And I was one of the first people in line when the when the ah vaccines became available. I was listening to a good doctor friend of mine. And he said, look, follow the science. So that's that's what I did. i And I had some friends who were, you know they weren't believers.
00:48:38
Speaker
um who didn't believe in the vaccine, fortunately unfortunately, um, one back at home and one guy I knew out in California. And then, um, a very good friend of mine here. She's a singer. She lost her mother, her mother's two sisters. Um, and this one other, one other person all within like about eight months. is So COVID was,
00:49:10
Speaker
COVID was huge, that was, oh my God, that just, that devastated us because as an industry, when things like this happen for musicians, you know, when when things get bad for the economy, people all of a sudden, you know, they don't have to entertain themselves, but they've got to eat. So they they're going to shut down all the going out to dinner, all the concerts and all that kind of stuff.
00:49:37
Speaker
And so we yeah when things like that happen, it's just just really bad for us. Well, now in life after COVID, um well, I know that COVID is still around, but how do we keep Smooth Jazz alive? You said some of these radio stations, you know, they've disappeared. yeah I've always been a radio station listener, and I love Smooth Jazz, so I If I ask my Alexa over there, it will probably play smooth jazz radio, so I'm not going to say anything. But I'm just curious, like, do we need to request that on Spotify? Do we need to be requesting it on that machine over there? Like, what do I need to keep doing to keep smooth jazz alive? especially for this maybe new generation because unless you're really into music and understand the history of music and have like an ear for a variety of different
00:50:37
Speaker
sounds, i don't I don't know what my role is in this and I want to keep something that's so beautiful and and I'm sure it's so it may be like, um you know, depending on where in the country someone lives, I don't know, but what do you think needs to be done today to keep it alive? Me personally, the only thing that we can do is to try to get the music to the young people.
00:51:03
Speaker
Because that's where things start to go um you know the other way. um i I remember a a Flintstones episode where he was this rock star. And he he was really hot. and And then all of a sudden, you know the kids you know He was, I think maybe four or five weeks down the road, he was all all of a sudden he was he was nobody and the kids didn't show up. So it's like if you don't get the kids interested, it's like when you when you think about the music of the early 1900s, there was really no, I mean, to know no real jazz going on at that time. there was
00:51:51
Speaker
the music back then, you you don't hear that stuff now. and That music is kind of dead. Now you move up to the 20s and the 30s and the 40s where big band stuff was being played.
00:52:04
Speaker
hu Where do you go to hear big band music? You don't. It's just, it's dead. it's ah's all I won't say it's dead, but it's practically dead. We just don't hear big band. You don't hear that stuff on the radio. It's like music goes with with ah with the with the generations. That's what that generation was listening to. That generation is now 70, 80, 90 years old. You know, those people don't come off the shows and they don't come off the concerts.
00:52:34
Speaker
um the 50s music the 60s music some of those people are still around you know but it's like you know what's what's what's next now from what i'm what i'm feeling now i'm seeing a lot on tick tock where a lot of young people are listening to older artists And I'm like, oh my God, who is this? Watch this guy, he was looking he was listening to the DGs or something. Like, oh man, I mean, these guys are incredible. where I'm like, dude, these guys are from the 70s. I mean, we did have great music back then. So I say all that to say this, we really got to get young people involved. But the other thing, as an artist, you have to evolve. You got to go to where they're going.
00:53:25
Speaker
so I have kind of left the whole smooth jazz thing. I've kind of evolved into into R and&B because I think R and&B is going to be around forever. And I think people love R and&B music. so and it's in in and And for what I'm doing personally, I'm having a lot of success with people coming to my shows. I'm and i'm producing a lot of my own shows.
00:53:49
Speaker
But I do, when you come to see a show for my show, you know, I might play one or two of my own songs, but it's always stuff that people recognize like Stevie Wonder, Anita Baker, Luther Vandross, that kind of stuff. So if we can if if we can get the kids to, you know, and and that's kind of how I've kind of evolved. And and I say that because Miles Davis,
00:54:15
Speaker
ended up at down towards the end of his career. What did he end up doing? He playing playing Michael Jackson songs. So that's how he got more popular, you know more well-known within the within the you know the younger generation was playing you know a younger generation song. you know i mean he He played um um human nature. That was the once Michael Jackson song that he did.
00:54:43
Speaker
But, and that's what ah you'll listen to a lot of smooth jazz artists now. That's what they're doing. And when I go to some of these shows, I watched Gerald Albright and a couple other guys down towards the end of the show. These guys are going to like, they'll take you back to the 70s and 80s.
00:55:01
Speaker
And people are just like just losing their minds, you know, because that's you know, those were the big that was that was the big deal 70s 80s the most popular songs, you know pop music. You know, it's just one of those things that everybody knows it's the most popular stuff and that's what is going to impress the majority of the people.
00:55:24
Speaker
So again, I think we just got ah we really got to hit the with hit the kids with with some new stuff.
The Emotional Impact of Music
00:55:31
Speaker
Because i'm I'm listening to the radio these days. I'm just not impressed with a lot of the new music out there. I'm just i' not trying to say that because I'm an ah an older person. No, we get a at it. We get it. I'm just not hearing the same quality. of you know maybe And that maybe is because so many people are using AI.
00:55:54
Speaker
AI and other things to make the voices sound good. ah Yeah, it's definitely a handful. I was just talking about this to someone. I said, you know, um like when I hear Celine Dion sing still, I'm like, God, where are the Celine Dion's of the day? You know, and so I i get it. um I mean, I have a niece and we started playing the Bee Gees for her. We only play the Bee Gees for her, so we're still trying to keep the music alive. There is a very young, she was on 60 Minutes last week. I can't think of her in the first name, Samara Joy or something like that. She is going to help.
00:56:43
Speaker
Jazz a lot. She's selling out places, I mean smaller venues, but she's selling out places all over the world. She's 24 years old. She was just here in Detroit. Just like yeah last week or a week and a half ago. She was here in St. Louis in September. And man, she is amazing. so Tim, we does where does John Batiste fit into this?
00:57:09
Speaker
Oh man, he oh God, he is ah incredible. um But he's across all kinds of things. and he' done everything I was going to say, he does everything yeah like ah from traditional jazz, R and&B, right he's just all over the place. I think he's doing a great thing because his audience is gonna be so, it's gonna be so broad. The only maybe negative thing and about that is if you go to one of the shows and he's playing a song that might, maybe you you don't like because he's it's a different genre, maybe that hurts him. But man, he is just the, guy he is so incredible and just so, I mean, the the diversity that, oh my God, it's just, and and I'm so it' so impressed with him. I just absolutely love him.
00:58:01
Speaker
So what what do you what happens in your mind when you're up there playing? I've been lucky enough to see two of your shows now, so I would agree with you that you get a very intense interior music. But what's happening in your mind when you're playing in front of these people? Are you following the music? Are you sort of in a ah separate little aura? What's it like to be you when you're up there doing that?
00:58:30
Speaker
it you know It's very emotional for me and I don't know why. um ah yeah and when i'm When I'm playing, I'm usually playing a song that you know that I listened to when I was you know back in the 70s, 80s or 90s or whatever. And I'm really thinking about trying to play the song as close as the original was possible to to make people feel like you know they're that's the artist that they're listening to um so it's it's but like again it's it's very emotional for me again i i really don't know why just i've been trying to figure it out and um and i think people can feel that when i when i'm playing they feel the emotion um which i you know which i think is why people come to concerts it's it's it's therapy music is therapeutic so i
00:59:26
Speaker
I think I'm going to ask you specifically, what about somewhere over the rainbow? What's your time? I don't even know how I started playing that. I have no idea when it started. But it's, you know, and it's it's a funny thing is it's a new movie that scared me as a kid. I didn't.
00:59:45
Speaker
We were watching that movie last week, just bits and pieces of it. And my wife and I were talking to about it as like, you know, that that movie actually scared them because when you get to the, you know, the Wicked Witch and all that kind of stuff. And that actually, backs but but something about the song is just so I played it one time and There was a couple women that said, wow, that was just so amazing. I love that song. I'm like, really? So it and just kind of stuck. So when I play it down, um because I'm just playing a little, I just play a little bit of of the ending of the song at the end of my show. And people start to smile. So um and then I started doing, I play America just about every time I play.
01:00:31
Speaker
Three or four minutes worth in Carmel. You were fantastic. That was- Yeah, yeah. yeah people People like the stuff, I guess, the stuff that they can relate to. And America is obviously something that we all as Americans can can appreciate. And I actually you know had have had guys stand up and salute. So,
01:00:58
Speaker
Is this the Neil Diamond America? No, no, no. No, the actual um the actual song America. America is a beautiful America. beautiful guy cook yeah Yeah. Gotcha. Okay. So yeah, guys have actually stood up and saluted and and they've actually just stood up, you know, just, you know, hearing this. Wow.
01:01:18
Speaker
this friend But the way you do it, again, in my experience, I mean, it was three or four minutes of a song. it was not it was that There were pauses. there were I mean, the whole emotion, you you just had to get embraced in the song and you sort of brought everybody into it because of the pattern and the pace that you play it.
01:01:39
Speaker
That that along with the fact that I'm playing it by myself ye draws all of the attention to me all the instruments are, you know, nobody's playing except for the keyboard player. He's playing bits and pieces as I'm doing my whole thing at the end of the show. But you're right that has That, like I said, along with me playing by myself, it just really centers the attention to me just playing the saxophone and people, people somehow get, you know, yeah I see people get so emotionally involved, they're crying and I'm like, wow. It's, I don't, like I said, um I don't know how that started. I have no idea. But it it happens.
01:02:26
Speaker
and the power of music, the way it touches people. It's amazing.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:02:30
Speaker
Well, Tim, I just want to let you know that from the bottom of all of our hearts, we really appreciate you coming on here on our show today. And as a fellow Spartan, I'm very proud to see you doing well for yourself and for others. And it's going to be our mission from this point forward to help bring smooth jazz back into TikTok. That'd be great. That'd be so awesome.
01:02:49
Speaker
So thanks so much for your time. Appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. And that brings us to the end of another episode. Remember, if you like what you hear, please feel free to leave a review and go to ww www.athletesandthearts.com for more information. For Yasi Ansari and Randy Dick, this is Stephen Karaginas and you have been listening to the athletes and the arts podcast.