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Downward Aria with Leslie Bickle
17 Plays3 days ago
Yasi and Steve join Athletes and the Arts Founder Randy Dick in welcoming opera singer Leslie Bickle onto the show. Leslie discusses her journey from Canada to the UK, performing for the late Queen Elizabeth II, working with performers to overcome performance anxiety, and becoming a yogi and yoga's value in singing and performing.
Leslie's website: http://www.lesliebickle.com
Athletes and the Arts website: http://www.athletesandthearts.com
Bio: Leslie Bickle is an opera singer and Yoga Alliance certified yoga teacher specialising in vinyasa, mandala, yin and restorative yoga. She has an eclectic background as a music teacher, a ballet dancer, and she has played many different instruments including violin, cello and flute.
Originally from Canada, Leslie’s performing career has taken her across the globe. Recent role highlights include Donna Anna (Don Giovanni), Rosalinde (Die Fledermaus), Micaëla (La Tragédie de Carmen) and Ilia (Idomeneo). She was a National finalist with the Canadian Music Competition and National semi-finalist/Regional finalist with the New York Lyric Opera Theatre. She received the Catherine Osbourne Opera Award, and was a recipient of the Philip Hattey Scholarship and the Dame Eva Turner Scholarship. She also had the immense pleasure of meeting and singing for the late Queen Elizabeth II.
To date, Leslie has had the privilege of working with various companies in her native country of Canada and in Europe. This has included Opera Atelier, Muskoka Opera Festival, Amersham Festival of Music, Tapestry Opera, the Berlin Opera Academy, Canadian Stage Company, Toronto Opera Collaborative, Oakville Chamber Orchestra and the Toronto New Music Festival. In additional to her extensive singing background, Leslie is the founder of Yoga with the Breath, a health and wellness yoga start up company that provides education, classes and resources for performers, organisations and institutions. Leslie works with her clients to provide customised support to meet individual needs. She has a particular interest in optimising breathing and helping people manage performance anxiety. Leslie recently gave private and group yoga sessions and customised support for athletes at the Vitality 10km race with Our Parks UK.
Leslie is also a speaker and supporter of health and wellness for elite performers. She was invited to speak at the MHPC22 conference in Oslo Norway in the autumn of 2022. The MHPC22 international conference was for physicians, athletic trainers, therapists, and music and performing arts students and professions, who seek to improve the performance, health and well-being of musicians and performing artists within all genres. Most recently, Leslie was invited to speak at the international conference PAMA, where she gave a talk on performance anxiety and conscious breathwork.
Leslie is a graduate from the University of Toronto Faculty of Music, and the prestigious Royal Academy Opera programme at the Royal Academy of Music, and she currently resides in London, England.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the athletes in the arts podcast. For you my co-host, Jossie Ansari, I'm Stephen Karaginas, and we hope you're enjoying the beginning of the holiday season. If you like what you hear, please feel free to leave a review and tell your friends as well.
Resources for Performing Arts Medicine
00:00:35
Speaker
For more resources and information on performing arts medicine, please, for more information and resources on performing arts medicine, go to www.athletesandthearts.com.
Guest Introductions: Randy Dick & Leslie Bickle
00:00:46
Speaker
So today on our show, we have Randy Dick with us, who is the founder of Athletes in the Arts. And as our guest, we have opera singer, Leslie Bickle. Originally from Canada, she is now in the UK and has been performing professionally now for over 20 years. She is also working to treat people with performance anxiety and using her experience as a yogi.
Leslie Bickle's Background and Transition to Opera
00:01:07
Speaker
She has founded the organization Yoga and the Breath, which provides education, classes, and resources for performers, organizations, and institutions. She also travels around the world to speak on health and wellness issues for elite performers.
00:01:22
Speaker
Hi, Leslie. Thank you for joining us today. Hi. I'm very happy to be here. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how your journey began in music. Oh, it's quite a, quite a wild journey. And I am a performing opera singer, but I didn't start as a singer. I actually started as a ballet dancer. So many, many, yeah, many years ago, I started, did Russian ballet. So very, very intense. Absolutely loved it.
00:01:51
Speaker
um played a whole bunch of other instruments, did some violin, cello, flute, and then sort of fell into singing. There was always singing in our home. There's always singing. My dad is a professional musician. and My mum was always singing, and it just was always part of our childhood growing up. And and I went to an arts high school in Canada.
00:02:15
Speaker
um and I had to audition to get in and it sort of that sort of sparked the joy for singing and performing and then I just kept going with it because I absolutely loved it and I loved how it made me feel, how inclusive it was, and I absolutely loved it and sort of started from there but originally started as a dancer.
00:02:35
Speaker
Would you say that there was a shift into wanting to be more of a vocalist? And when did that shift
Opera and Breathing Techniques
00:02:45
Speaker
begin? Yeah, definitely. It was it was in high school. um And it was when I saw my first opera. um And I'd been to a lot of different shows and lots of different things um before. But I sort of discovered this world of singing and all of the things that I love. The movement of dance.
00:03:05
Speaker
the orchestra and and singing combined. And so for me, opera was the art form with all of my passions tied into one and um fell in love with the drama, the acting of singing.
00:03:18
Speaker
And it just, it just, I essentially just fell in love with it. um And had such a passion for it in high school, decided that I, well, I loved it so much. I wanted to go to university to study. And then I landed in a music program at the University of Toronto. So the passion just kept growing.
00:03:39
Speaker
Do you feel like there was specific training that needed to be implemented to support you in your breathing technique as you were shifting from dance and instruments into um opera?
00:03:54
Speaker
Yes. Great question. Absolutely. um Definitely. Because with dance, with singing and with dance, and even for different instruments, you're using your apparatus and you're using your breath support. Absolutely. But there's such a different shift that needs to happen. Singing is the entire rib cage. you You're breathing with your back. There's all kinds of things that are happening with that.
00:04:18
Speaker
And I found with dance in particular, there's a different way that you hold your posture, there's a little more rigidity in that, particularly with ballet, classical ballet, it's it's very different. um And so absolutely, there's there's a different way that you use the diaphragm and there's a different way that you use the the body and the apparatus um very, very differently. So yes, there's a lot of musculature that's very unique to to operatic singing and that's very different from dance.
Maturity in Opera Singing
00:04:48
Speaker
So with opera and yeah it sounds like you start you found opera later on. Yes. um Is that common for opera singers? always I always envisioned opera singers being groomed from like two years old all the way up. is that like ah Was it an odd shift to start so late?
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah, so you know what, this this is the question that I think a lot of people have because they see, you know, on television shows, they see a young children singing these operatic shows. There are all kinds of things that we've seen of young people. But a lot of people come to opera late in life, actually, because of the type, your your voice isn't even mature enough to handle the repertoire. um So as a young child, you know, a lot of kids are singing in the falsetto. it's It's a very, it's a very different type of instrument that you're able to use. And opera requires ah maturity. And so some singers don't even mature into their sound, sometimes into their late 20s or 30s, depending on the type of voice that you have.
00:05:48
Speaker
for women particularly, and they'll be if they if they eventually become a dramatic soprano, they won't even find that sometimes until later on in life. So you'll see the, which is a wonderful thing in terms of career span because you have people that you can go sing well into your 50s and 60s and be performing and just because of how the body how the body was made and how it's able to support that that sound.
Cross-Training Benefits for Opera Singers
00:06:15
Speaker
It almost makes more sense to start later, maybe, you know, other things first and be cross trained. It's almost like a cross training thing. Very much. That was so interesting that you say that because that when I was studying in my undergrad, that was the conversation that we were having a lot with different teachers. And I remember, and again, in your undergrad here, it's a very different type. If you're doing your master's or doctorate, you're in a very sort of different mindset a lot of the time.
00:06:41
Speaker
and you're quite young, you're in your early 20s. And I distinctly remember voice teachers saying to a lot of singers at that time, oh, go and study languages, go do something else. Your voice hasn't even matured yet to be able to support the type of repertoire that you need. So depending if it's Mozart, if it's Puccini, if it's all kinds of other really difficult repertoire, your your voice, just the mechanics can't even support that until it's it's more mature.
00:07:10
Speaker
which is a really interesting concept compared to other disciplines. I mean, it's beautiful. It makes you feel like there's longevity in one art form and yeah it's a great option for for people who want to utilize their and voices. Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of people that do come into that much later on and they don't really tap into it until later on in life, which is interesting.
00:07:36
Speaker
So I had a question on cross-training concept that Steve just asked. It was fascinating to hear that you've been exposed to all of this music and dance.
00:07:46
Speaker
and like in the sports world, people do cross training all the time. yeah um Is there a particular benefit you would say for any type of musician, not just opera singers, to be exposed to the diversity of performing that you did and how that makes you a better ultimate opera singer?
00:08:09
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I think there's a couple of things I could say to that, actually. I think first would be my exposure to orchestral music. So as a violinist, um understanding the orchestra that sits beneath the singer. ah Some singers have other instruments, some don't. It just depends on on your background, of course.
00:08:32
Speaker
But for me, it meant that I intimately understood some of the orchestral work because I played the cello, because I played the violin, because I played the flute. So it just meant that when I was singing and when I am singing, it it makes for ah just ah so much greater understanding of of the the repertoire, essentially, really. um And it means that you sing in a very different way, I think.
00:09:01
Speaker
um it's It's very different when you understand the orchestra music underneath you in that in that type of a way, because I used to play those things. In opera, the stories are so powerful too, so maturity would actually be ah very valuable when it comes to to opera, not only understanding all the the instruments around you and being able to adjust to those different sounds,
00:09:30
Speaker
and then in combination with dance and then in combination with, you know, just having more of a mature vocal span.
Emotional Maturity in Opera
00:09:38
Speaker
I feel like that would be so valuable. Definitely, definitely. Because it's not just the physicality, it's ah the emotional maturity that you need. There's a lot of, there's all kinds of um concepts in operas and in theater where you you just need that maturity to be able to emote and be able to get across the um the story. and So that that's really, really important. um And that maturity and and some voices really going back to sort of the the vocal um aspect
00:10:12
Speaker
It's not even healthy actually to be singing a lot of the repertoire if you're if you're sometimes younger and if you can't support that sound, your body, the physicality, you have to be able to support the instrument. um And I think a lot of people aren't aware of that. So one other question on this diversity thing. i I just keep thinking that if you were writing a resume and you put all these different things on there as your job titles, your experiences, um when you were applying for opportunities and you gave something like this to whoever might be hiring you, did they ever comment on this as either a positive or possibly a negative? Interesting. um Such a good question. um
00:10:59
Speaker
on On resumes, when you walk into an opera audition, there isn't really space to, sometimes you have sort of other experience. You know, I'll list my yoga training or I'll list some of the orchestral things. It's not really talked about, which is which is kind of, I'm realizing that as I'm i'm saying speaking about this now, it's not something that is sort of spoken of, but many people realize the significance of that. And when you're actually working in the studio, when you're working in the repertoire when you're preparing an opera. It's very obvious when you have colleagues that have that vast experience and that background. It it is an entirely different experience. um And so it's only an asset, I believe, but it's not something that that we sort of
00:11:46
Speaker
highlight you don't Yeah,
Physicality in Opera Performance
00:11:49
Speaker
is interesting. Just interesting. Yeah. I just because the people who are making the decisions, you wonder if they're in a lane that says, OK, I'm interested in the volume or the number of years you've sung opera. That's the key point. Or I'm interested in the fact that you've done opera, but you've also done this, this and this. And that provides a broader opportunity, a broader experience. Yeah.
00:12:14
Speaker
I think in terms of the dance and the yoga, particularly more so than maybe the orchestral stuff that I've done, that definitely, because in in in the art form of opera, you have to be able to move on stage. I have to move, I have to sometimes be upside down, laying down, standing up. There's all kinds of movement that has to happen. I have to be able to use my singing apparatus, but be able to emote and tell you a story and draw the audience in. That's all that's all part of it.
00:12:41
Speaker
um So perhaps maybe more so with that than sort of the you know the other orchestral um experiences that I've had.
Performing for Queen Elizabeth II
00:12:49
Speaker
So about your professional career, I saw that you've been performing you know in multiple countries all across the world and even for Queen Elizabeth II. How is that experience? That must have been hard to catch your breath.
00:13:02
Speaker
That was such a wild experience. I still to this day can sort of hardly believe that it happened. So I've been in the UK for eight years now and I met her and sang for her in my first year here ah in the first two or three months that I was living here, which seems absolutely ridiculous when I think about it. um I was living at the time, I was studying at the Royal Academy Opera, out which was an amazing, amazing experience. And I was living at a college in London called Goodenough College. And she's ah she was a patron of that college.
00:13:41
Speaker
um which is how the opportunity came about. There were a lot of other opera singers there at the time. There were lots of other um individuals, different schools within within London. And she's ah she was a patron. She was a patron of the college. And so she came for a visit. I was with all of the other Canadians, being a Canadian, and there were all of the other Commonwealth students there. ah She was lovely, shook her hand, had a lovely meeting with her. And then we sang for her. and I started the solo at the beginning. She loved jazz, and which is not something I was aware of, but she loved jazz. Yeah, I wasn't fully... what She loved jazz.
00:14:20
Speaker
And we sang What a Wonderful World, Louis Armstrong. And it was just, so we started that and um it was, they were unveiling a plaque and we were singing and it was just the most surreal experience ah to date, I think, but it was wonderful. She was so personable.
00:14:41
Speaker
She had such an interest in people. It was very apparent that she was walking around the room meeting with people from all around the world. um Good Enough College is a ah really beautiful cultural hub um for students coming in from various places around the world. And she was just fascinated in people. And it was really wonderful to just meet her sort of organically like that, ah so to speak. um She was just really warm.
00:15:09
Speaker
and was genuinely interested in everyone she met. It was, it was quite, quite wonderful. Did you get briefed on the protocols? Were there certain things you had to do when you met her? Yes, very much so. There was, it was very tight security, very tight security. Um, and I mean, of when I think about it, it's completely surreal. But it happened. And there was it was just wonderful. It was a really, really wonderful day. And what a highlight. When I just moved here from Canada ah to be able to meet and sing for the Queen, I was just wild.
00:15:51
Speaker
yeah so then Obviously, that's a peak as a highlight of your career. What other like what other operas would you say were some of your most fond memories of performing?
Favorite Opera Roles
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah. so i mean I've performed in lots of different things. um i There's so many different operas. I sang Rosalinda from Die Flädermaus Strauss in Berlin.
00:16:13
Speaker
um I sang Donna Anna here in London. There's lots of Mozart. Don Giovanni, right? Don Giovanni, yes, exactly. um And there's so many. but i think I think some of my favorite characters to date were those were those women because they were so strong um and powerful and they really they just use their voices in such a really powerful way. um And it was really wonderful to to just work work on that on that literature. And also it's an ensemble cast, so working with... Lots of other wonderful wonderful musicians is also highlight. I love i love collaborative work. I always have. I don't know if that's because I grew up playing in orchestras or, you know, i'd maybe or perhaps, but I love ensemble work because it it does it's teamwork. It's teamwork.
00:17:12
Speaker
And I really appreciate working and building, creating something. and I said to an opera director once, I said, some of my favorite. I love performing on stage, of course. Some of my favorite times in the rehearsal studio, because it's where you're most creative, you're most imaginative. You can sort of even play. um and And then you bring it on stage. And then an opera becomes this whole other story, and it becomes something else.
00:17:40
Speaker
But um it's it's ah it's i love I love the process. I love the process of study. I love the process of the discipline work. And maybe that's part of the you know the dancer that I was used to being in rehearsals for hours and working diligently. um I also did some competitive sport as well, some competitive swimming. So there's sort of there's all of these components to performance.
00:18:07
Speaker
And ah i I loved everything. I love everything about it.
Journey into Yoga and Injury Recovery
00:18:12
Speaker
So tell us a little bit about how your work shifted into becoming a yoga instructor and really helping people with mindfulness and different sports. When I was working for one of the collegiate programs um as a dietician, I remember that the football players had a yoga instructor and I took one of those classes with them and it was very, it was interesting. But watching all the football players, just doing all the movements, but that class that class was actually one of the most memorable yoga experiences of my life, not because of the football players, but because of
00:18:58
Speaker
the mindfulness piece of it. Yeah. So there's a little bit of a story with this one. and i'd been doing I've done yoga for years, years and years, over 10 years, and I've always loved it. I just did it out of love. I i i did it before I i moved to the UK back in Canada, and I had an injury.
00:19:19
Speaker
as a performer. I had an injury. I had a really significant back injury. And it was so, I was in the middle of shows and performing and it was so significant. and I was hardly able to move. I was taken to A and&E. It was is really, it was really, really awful. And my hips were out of alignment and I worked with some incredible physiotherapists here in the UK, but also in Canada. And they nursed me back to health.
00:19:49
Speaker
um and it But it wasn't just that element. um I realized how significant yoga was in in that journey, in that health journey as well.
00:19:59
Speaker
um and I realized that my love of yoga, that i could I could build upon that and become an instructor myself. I'd always, in my past, I was i did a lot of music teaching, still still do, um have in the last couple of years. um And I love teaching. And so teaching is just a different context.
00:20:21
Speaker
um And so I realized that there were opportunities within within yoga. And so i I got my qualifications. I have lots of different ones with vinyasa, mandala yoga, yin yoga, and also realized the significance of the breath.
00:20:40
Speaker
within within yoga and mindfulness as as you were as you were talking about. And realizing that tapping into the parasympathetic nervous system is incredibly powerful and a lot of people are not aware of how significant conscious breath work is.
00:20:57
Speaker
We all think we can breathe. We're human. We all think we can breathe. We all think we know how, you know, we're breathing in and out, we're functioning, but conscious breath work is is different. And clinicians worldwide recognize that there are incredible ah positive things that can be had from from that conscious breath work. And so that was sort of my journey from injury to health, realizing that I wanted to be able to help other people. um sort of sparked a whole bunch of other things while still singing, while still performing and still, you know, doing that that part of my world, realizing that I could help other people and help significantly um to be able to essentially just help someone so they didn't have to experience what I had to experience. um Performers, there is a ah lot of ah
00:21:52
Speaker
performers are sometimes uncomfortable with asking for help because they don't, a lot of performers don't trust clinicians sometimes and they they really appreciate and want someone to understand them because it's their art form, it's their world. um And so I realized that, well, I am a performer, number one.
00:22:16
Speaker
I love yoga and I can, I think, help people through that my experience and and help other people. that yeah We were you know talking a little bit about the different methods of yoga that you instruct on and one of them you shared about You also shared right now about the parasympathetic nervous system and and helping that process and hmm restorative yoga Maybe yoga that helps an athlete or a performer with getting a good night's rest Could you tell us a little bit more about some of the changes you've seen and the people that you've worked with? Yeah, definitely Yoga can help them
00:22:58
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a number of different things. Speaking of the conscious breath work, most yoga classes end with a shavasana. So you're laying down palms open to the ceiling. You're letting the breath, you let everything go in that type of a posture. um And that incorporates mindfulness as all kinds of things. And it allows the body to absorb the practice.
00:23:22
Speaker
But there's also something that I've done a lot of extensive teaching with with yoga nidra, which is yoga sleep. And there's there's many different ways to approach that. And in my classes, I've done a lot of sometimes it's visualization, sometimes it's body scan.
00:23:38
Speaker
um But it's allowing the musculature, that the body to completely relax and release. And often it takes people a little bit of time to get into that posture. um It's amazing to me when I work with my students to see many people struggle with stillness.
00:23:57
Speaker
many people struggle with being still. And as a teacher, I'm trained to observe, observe rather, observe my students. um And It's incredible to see how that breath work and that yoga sleep, that sort of tapping into that parasympathetic nervous system, allowing the body that rest and digest. um It's amazing to to watch that and how how that helps um help your students. And I've had a lot of students come to me, some of them will start getting emotional in the class um because it taps into a much deeper place.
00:24:36
Speaker
um If you're working through things, I've had students with injuries, challenges in their personal lives, all kinds of things, and they'll come into a class sometimes and they'll just be so, ah they just it's it's a space to be able to let them go.
00:24:51
Speaker
Yeah, just have that freedom. For those who may not understand what performance anxiety is, could you share a little bit of more about what to look out for, whether that's from your own experience or what you've seen the athletes and performers that you've worked with?
Managing Performance Anxiety
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So performance anxiety, everyone experiences it, whether you think you do or not, everyone does. Even if you're giving a speech. Yes, absolutely. Yes, so absolutely. um Performance anxiety is across all disciplines. So whether you are a professional football player or you're a ballerina or you're a politician public speaking, it it doesn't it doesn't matter. um Performance anxiety spans all disciplines.
00:25:36
Speaker
and there's many things that tap into that whether it's quite small and you just have sweaty palms or you have sort of your your breathing changes quite rapidly or you completely lose the inability to be able to communicate. um There's a spectrum and Performance anxiety is happens all across the board with all kinds of disciplines. And and there are ways to be able to help that. I always say to to people that I'm working with, I work with a number of different people. I've worked with people as tech startups who are public speaking. And that's there. There's a lot of anxiety with that. It's sort of across the board or you know professional runners, what whatever it is. um and
00:26:22
Speaker
The symptoms are all the same, but finding tools, and I always say it's a toolbox, finding a toolbox of skills to be able to help you help support that anxiety. Because we all experience it, and it won't go away. That's, I think, the thing to, it's not something that will completely dissipate, but it's how you manage it. And it's realizing that when when you realize that you have there is power in conscious breath work. It means that you have the ability and tools to be able to manage it well. And that's something I think when people realize that they have they have that power to be able to help support themselves and they're able to manage their anxiety. I think it's amazing that even at young ages these days, for example, I have one of my best friends, she was sharing that her daughter who's getting ready for basketball tournaments,
00:27:14
Speaker
She's only 10 and she's working on performance anxiety. Like she has strategies for performance anxiety. And I love that we're bringing more awareness to it and athletes and performers are starting at an earlier age because that's going to take them very far. Yes, definitely. And I think i think you're absolutely right. I think for a long time it was something, it was so taboo. We we didn't even want to speak about it.
00:27:40
Speaker
um But everyone experienced it. So it's sort of this, well, if everyone's experiencing it, but no one wants to talk about it. yeah And so the fact that someone, you know that young is is having skills and tools to be able to help manage that. And it's each individual is different. Also, there'll be differences whether, you know it depends on the situation. If you're performing in front of thousands of people, or if you're performing for one person on the audition panel, or you know depending on whatever it is,
00:28:08
Speaker
um it's important to find the tools that work for you. So what what in your experience seems to be the element, could you mentioned how everybody has a form of anxiety to some degree, some level. So what do you think is the factors that you see with the people you work with that takes that anxiety, which can sometimes be a positive, sometimes folks feed off that and turns into a debilitating, ah dysfunctional obstacle that they can't get past. Yeah, so it's it's the mindset because that because anxiety, that performance anxiety, um the performance anxiety is the challenging bit, but that adrenaline that you get from that is actually a positive. right You need that adrenaline and performers, whatever discipline will tell you that you need that. And that's all part of part of the process of performance. um And so it's when it completely overwhelms and takes over,
00:29:06
Speaker
that you're not able to perform at your optimal best. That's the challenge. So it's utilizing that, realizing that that adrenaline is actually essential. I've performed before where I've had hardly any adrenaline. It was some of them some of the hardest performances I've ever, I was so tired. I was performing in um an art song concert years ago and I was so tired that I didn't have that adrenaline.
00:29:30
Speaker
And I had to will myself to perform because I needed it in order to be able to emote and get across what I was trying to say. um And so it was just so interesting and to not to almost not have that and realizing, oh, this is actually we need that adrenaline, um but not so that the performance anxiety overwhelms and so that you're unable to to perform and do the work that you need to do.
00:29:59
Speaker
So um where does caffeine fit into this equation? Is caffeine considered adrenaline or is it a supplement to to your performance or is it everybody is different?
00:30:13
Speaker
So caffeine, this is a very interesting question that's quite controversial. um I personally really struggle with singing and caffeine. I have learned in my body that i caffeine dries out my vocal folds. And um I found for me, it actually causes anxiety in the body. Like I have had some sort of heart palpitations before with drinking too much coffee.
00:30:43
Speaker
um So I almost strictly drink decaf now. However, i there's many professional singers that I can name that would drink caffeine cup after cup after cup and be absolutely fine. So I think i think there's there's a real lesson in there though, because every body is different. So what will work for one person may not work for somebody else. We're all, our apparatuses, our bodies are different. And I think being aware of that and knowing what works for you, that's why I talk about the toolbox, because one person,
00:31:13
Speaker
I'm working, one of my clients is very different than somebody else. um And you have to find and discover what works what works for you. I couldn't have said it better. No, that's great. Well, let's say you're part of our audience, we hope, or clinicians that are trying to understand what people like performer art artists need. You have this amazing performance. You have your adrenaline. You're on this high. It's 1030 at night. How do you come down and how do you go to bed at night and continue to be able to do it?
00:31:51
Speaker
on a
Unwinding After Performances
00:31:52
Speaker
regular basis. How do you unwind after you get this great high from your performance? Oh, that is that is a very tricky one. ah Because in my world, in the opera world, performances usually start at seven or eight o'clock at night. So you're not even fit if you have two or three different acts.
00:32:15
Speaker
you're not even done um until 10 o'clock sometimes or a little bit later. And then after a show, you've been you know performing for three hours. You're starving. So you need some food. You need to refuel. um And then if you have family or friends in the audience, you want to make sure that you're spending time with them and seeing them, um especially if you're you know you're traveling quite a lot.
00:32:38
Speaker
um
00:32:42
Speaker
It's a very tricky question. um I think balance comes into it as well. I think while well-being and wellness and taking care of yourself and making sure you get enough sleep and hydrate and and all of those things, you also need to live.
00:33:01
Speaker
And you need to, you know, I think that's that's important, that's part of it. um I think when I've had multiple shows, one after the next, after the next, or in my world, it's usually every other night, or it depends, usually there's an off day in between, um very different than music theater, where they're, you know, six nights in a week, they're performing each night, it's it's a little bit different. um And so I think you get into a routine um of,
00:33:30
Speaker
that wind down and some some people may, some people would do a workout. um I wouldn't, I would do more mindfulness um breath work to be able to sort of allow the adrenaline to come down from a show. And then for me, it's the recovery the next day, which is really important. So it's making sure you sleep in a little bit if you can.
00:33:54
Speaker
it It's vocalizing the next day. It's making sure the body is is rested. I found sometimes my voice is working, but my body is tired. And if my body, if I can't support in through the diaphragm and in through all of my my muscles and through my abdomen, if my body is tired, the voice doesn't work. Well, the vocal folds, the vocal folds vibrate and and they move and they, you know, they're working. But if my body isn't, then then the voice, I can't support the sound.
00:34:26
Speaker
So you mentioned the work you're doing with your own self and wellness and you're working on your breath and teaching others yoga in the opera world with all these different places you performed over um different continents.
Wellness Policies for Performers
00:34:39
Speaker
ah When you've seen all these different environments, is it pretty much every opera performer for themselves as far as taking care of them? Is there anything as is there a sort of movement in the opera world to like help performers realize how to maintain longevity in their career?
00:34:55
Speaker
yeah That is such an important question, and I think one that we need to be asking more. um I personally think there's policies that probably need to be implemented in in a very different way. Some performers are within a union, some are not. um Some have agents, some don't, and so the agency might help support them. um But in terms of every every person out for themselves, sometimes it does feel like that. And I know colleagues that, you know, many of them will will use different things to sort of support, if if you're traveling a lot, that's also tiring. If you're a singer and you've just been on a really long flight that drives out the vocal folds, there's so many different things to think about. um And there's there's more, I don't think we we talk enough
00:35:45
Speaker
about that about that care and wellness. um we ah We talk a lot about you know the music, the the sound, all of those things, but what about the wellness? um And from different parts of the world where I've sung and colleagues who are are singing, I think sometimes you that you just sort of grow and mature into understanding what that is for you. But I think it would be a much better place if we all supported each other in that. But I think that's ah that calls for a greater conversation. But I think that's at a a different level. i think that um I think policies would need to be implemented for that. And I think there's a real need for that, actually.
00:36:31
Speaker
It becomes harder to learn on your own, to grow into it when you don't have any role models or leadership or resources or policies to help you, right? Absolutely. And there's, I mean, there's some opera companies or theater companies where they will, that is something that's important.
00:36:48
Speaker
um and different shows that I've been in where there's a you know collective warm up with people. It depends on the context. If there's a stage fight, you have to practice that before the show. that You have to make sure that and I've been in different indifferent um fight scenes where you have we have calls for those and you have to you have to do that right before each and every show. And so there's a warm up. But I really do think in the different colleagues that I've had across the world that it's
00:37:20
Speaker
It's something that we, I think, could be better at. And I think, myself included, when when you're busy performing, I think it's a a much greater conversation that needs to be had to be able to help performers, because it's the longevity. But you can say now for a few years, but what about in 10 years' time?
00:37:37
Speaker
If you want to be singing in 10, 15 years time and the ah the length of a career for an opera singer can be quite vast compared to other disciplines um because you can sing until your 50s and 60s if you want to and perform and really and really do quite well. um So if that is something that you want, you have to take care of the voice. Now, there are doctors, I've been to lots of different laryngologists, I've been scoped many times um and understanding how you know what's the health of the vocal folds.
Challenges in Finding Informed Clinicians
00:38:07
Speaker
ah So people, I think singers sometimes are are aware of that. um But in terms of the injury that I spoke about earlier, with my back injury, I didn't even know where to turn. in terms of where do I even find a physiotherapist that understands me? There's lots of different physiotherapists around, but I need a sports medicine physio. I need somebody who understands a dancer's background, an opera singer. I have to, in three days, four days, be able to get back to rehearsals. how right how I need somebody who knows what they're doing in that respect. um And so that was a real challenge to be able to make sure I got the right help at the right time.
00:38:47
Speaker
So a few makes very, very, you know, great sense, because yeah, the relationship has to be there. And people but people people get burned in the past with these situations. um But you're also doing work as a kind of clinician yourself, right? As far as like using yoga and breathing technique with performers. So with everything you discussed, how are you implementing what you want to see in clinicians into your own practice with your performers? Yeah, absolutely. And
00:39:16
Speaker
I think with for the different clients, and again, my world, I work with a wide range. So as I mentioned, I work with people in startups, so you know public speaking, I work with professional runners, i work there's a whole spectrum of of people at the moment in the clients that I'm seeing. um And I think one of the most important aspects for me when I work with different clients is for them to understand exactly why we're doing what we're doing, what is going to be helpful for them. I can't see them every day. I can't sometimes see them every week. They need to be able to have that autonomy to be able to go, here's my instrument. Here's what I'm working on. Here are the tools that I need to be able to have to be able to ah perform in whatever whatever realm they're performing in. And for me, it's very important that
00:40:14
Speaker
my clients walk away with an understanding of why I've given them different exercises, why they need it, what outcome. um Because if I go back to the injuries that I've had, it's this endless
00:40:31
Speaker
void in front of you that you can't see through. And when you've lost the ability to be able to do what you passionately love and you've been years training for mentally, emotionally, it can be incredibly depleting. And the mental health ramifications of that are significant. And so I think there's a sensitivity that needs to happen with with that for performers, especially if they're or they've come to a clinician and they're in that delicate state or if they've come to me and I'm working with different clients, they're already in a state of vulnerability.
00:41:07
Speaker
and I think making sure that they can, they know that they can trust me. Uh, sometimes I share depending on what it is I share about my experience. Um, because that shared knowledge is power and that, that vulnerability, vulnerability begets vulnerability. And so, and you know, there's a clinician and a client. So obviously there's, there's steps that need to be taken into effect there, of course, but shared experience is important. And so,
00:41:37
Speaker
For me, it's important for my clients to know that I've experienced performance anxiety too. I'm human just like you. I get it. But I know what to do now. And I know what works for me, what works in my body. Every bo every day is different. um With my yoga clients, I often say, every time you step onto the mat, it's a different day. Your body is different. So listen to your body. Be kind to your body.
00:42:07
Speaker
We need our bodies to be able to move throughout you know
Incorporating Wellness in Performing Arts
00:42:10
Speaker
our lives. And the kinder you are to your body, um those benefits are just, I mean, you can't even, they' they're huge. Yeah. And how are you getting artistic directors on board or other other leaders or instructors? How do you get them to buy in to I guess we can start with the mental health aspect of all of this and yeah and and having them incorporate maybe yoga or other mindfulness exercises. who Yeah. and It's so interesting. I've had the opportunity to speak at a number of different conferences. So these are some international and global conferences, one with PAMA, one in Norway. um
00:43:00
Speaker
ah and so That's the case in point. there's There's performers and people in prominent places all realizing that there is significant need for wellness across the board for people, policies, um exercises, practices. And i don't I don't know if we're yet in the place where
00:43:25
Speaker
I don't think we're where we need to be yet, if I can say that. I don't think we are. I think there's room there's always room for growth, but i think I think there's a lot of work and support. I think there's a lot of there generations of stigma and taboo conversations that need to be undone um in in that respect. and so I think in term it's been very interesting when I've traveled and when I've spoken and I've been speaking on performance anxiety with both of those two conferences um and realizing that what regardless of the country you're in, regardless of the the performance school or the theater company, these concepts are universal and everyone is trying to figure out what are the best ways to manage them. And so that's why I mentioned policy before because I think it's one thing sort of
00:44:17
Speaker
You know, the micro-macro level, I think it's sort of, there's there's one thing in the in a theatre company to be able to work within that that understanding and and implement things, but we need, I think, a much broader understanding of wellness in the performing arts.
00:44:34
Speaker
um I think sports, I think in the the world of sports, I think they do that quite well a lot of the time. um ah But I think in performance and that's across the board, I think there's opportunity for growth and understanding that wellness is essential and is so important for overall health and well-being.
Recording Performances for Improvement
00:45:00
Speaker
over so um
00:45:05
Speaker
a little bit of a diversion here but in sport when you think about if you're doing this and you're trying to get better we've talked a lot about how you can take care of your body and maybe get some help when you need it um but how like in sport you might review videotape do do you ever Have your performances videotaped and sit down and either listen or watch and and critique or have somebody else critique how you've done it. Is that of value or is that sort of a negative thing?
00:45:42
Speaker
Yes, actually. i can't speak for I can only speak for for myself in that regard, although I do know a lot of other colleagues that have done that. I regularly record. ah So in an opera singers' world, I regularly have voice lessons and I'm regularly working on different repertoire, even if I'm not in any shows. um I'm not in and a show at the moment, but I'm consciously working away and practicing regularly to keep up that finesse in my singing.
00:46:09
Speaker
And I record my practice sessions, I record voice lessons with coaches, with teachers. There's video recording that we do as well. um Probably not at the the regularity that a sports person would, ah but that is beneficial and is helpful. And and I've even recorded, I work work regularly with a physiotherapist.
00:46:33
Speaker
um regularly just to make sure the body is functioning and then the muscles are functioning as they should and my jaw and my neck everything is relaxed to be able to do what I have to do in singing and sometimes you know those exercises I'll be recording um so yes but I don't I still that does happen but I don't think it's universal and across the board um as would be beneficial And one other question, if I may, this is very different than the previous one. um So for those that are not in your profession or in the performing arts profession, can you somehow put into words what you feel like when you're up there doing what you love to do um and and why it's so important for people to understand that so that they can take care of people like you?
Emotional Power of Performing
00:47:22
Speaker
Oh, yes. Love that question. ah the Love that question. ah For a lot of performers, performance and what we do in our individual, whether you're a dancer, you're a flautist, you're an opera singer, it feels, it's a vocation. It's more than just a job.
00:47:46
Speaker
It's something that you have such a significant, overwhelming passion for. What we do is not easy. There's a lot of sacrifice. What I do is not easy. I have had to and continue to make sacrifices to be able to do what I i do. but i ah But I perform and I sing because I have to. that There is a hunger. um There's a performer, a Misha Booger-Gossman. She's ah a brilliant international Canadian soprano.
00:48:16
Speaker
And she said, I remember her saying once in an interview that there's a the there's a fire in her belly. There's a fire in her belly to perform. And when you are performing and on stage, there is nothing like it in the world.
00:48:34
Speaker
ah when you can use your body and use your gifts and use your talents in a way that connects people. The art connects humanity. And so it's not just, yo, you're telling a wonderful story. It creates this beautiful world of possibility and opportunity, and it connects people to their humanity.
00:48:57
Speaker
It makes you cry, it makes you joyful. and there's There's so many different aspects to that and when you have the opportunity to and you can feel it very tangibly on stage, you can feel when an audience is right in the palm of your hands and you're creating and telling them something. There's nothing quite like it.
00:49:17
Speaker
And we need it. um I think humanity needs it. I think our world, we live in a challenging world at times. And I think we need the joy of music and the joy of creativity. and We need not only performers, but we need audience members. We need people to appreciate art. Doesn't mean you have to be on stage. You can just be appreciating it in the audience.
00:49:43
Speaker
um art and performance connects us intimately to who we are as humans and that shared experience. you would you would um You could still have that fire in your belly and perform to an empty room and all of that, but giving that gift to people really is the topper that makes you come back day after day after day. It's giving something back.
00:50:15
Speaker
Yes, very much so. Yes, because you can tell when you're on stage, you can feel it. You can feel it in a room when an audience is with you, and you can feel it when they're not. And that some there's something incredibly powerful about bringing thousands of people who I've performed for, thousands of people at one time across this journey with you, and sharing something, sharing something real. you know Emotions are at the core of our existence. And so when you have the opportunity to be able to give back and to make people laugh and and share something really beautiful with them, it's incredibly it's incredibly
00:50:53
Speaker
powerful and healing as well in some way. I mean, we want to emote as performers, but that you also get something back from it as well. And it's why we come back day after day. It's why I'm so passionate about it. It's why I'm still singing, still performing, still doing what I do, wanting to help people because we need it. I think our world needs the arts and that creativity and to know that possibilities are possible.
00:51:22
Speaker
Well, if COVID showed us one thing, it showed us that we all desperately need the arts because I think when everybody was locked down, that was where everybody turned to maintain sanity. So I think your point is well taken for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think globally we saw that. i think we We saw that and we realized that we needed that hope and that um appreciation for beauty. um And so when you have an opportunity to be able to perform for people,
00:51:52
Speaker
and share something with them and share something real. An audience will know when you're performing and when you're really connecting with them, they'll feel it. and it's a real It's a real privilege, I would say, and it's why I keep coming back to it. It's why my colleagues keep coming back to doing what we do because we realize the importance of it and we love it. so If you had three things to tell clinicians about the needs of singers opera singers performing artists in general what are three key things that they if you're going in to see them that they need to be aware of in terms of your needs what you need from them yeah this is such an important question and universally uh health literacy is
00:52:42
Speaker
such an important concept and understanding that performers can advocate for themselves and understand.
Advice for Clinicians
00:52:50
Speaker
ah There's, there's such a gap. There's such a gap in understanding between what a clinician knows and what a performer knows. I mean, they're different disciplines of course, right but the three things clinicians need to be aware that Performers need to trust you, other that otherwise they will not do what you've asked them to do. They need to be able to trust, they need to know
00:53:16
Speaker
that their instrument is safe because it's it's um my instrument is me. It is my vocal apparatus. It is inside me. you know it's I can't tuck it away and put it away. So i need I need collectively, we need clinicians to intimately understand that connection between the mind and the body and that that we're safe with them. They need to understand that we're very different than just somebody coming in off the street who who doesn't have to be up and performing in a couple of days' time. um So that trust, I would say, is number one, building that trust with with a patient. and
00:53:54
Speaker
I've seen many performers not go seek help because they don't trust clinicians. And it's a shame because clinicians are wonderful. We need them. We desperately need them. We need their insight. We need their research. We need their data points. But that trust would be number one. The second thing I would say is to understand that in whatever the the clinician is prescribing, again, performers are unique. So we need something.
00:54:23
Speaker
we need very tangible, whether it's you're seeing a physiotherapist for exercises, they need to be able to build them into our world and build them into our day to day. If that isn't the case, the performers won't do it. And they won't, they won't, they won't. It's as simple as that, which is such a shame because often that that support is is needed. and So that would be number two. And the third thing,
00:54:53
Speaker
is I think going back to giving a performer an overarching plan of you're going to get back to where you need to go but there's other these things need to happen in the interim so understanding that there's a trajectory for what that looks like because when a performer is so desperate and they can't do what they love to do what they've been training 20 years to do and they've come to the doorstep of a clinician they need to know that there's hope whatever that looks like in every situation is different but they need to know that they're
00:55:24
Speaker
that they're supported with everything. um And that sort of encompasses the three points, which at which I've spoke about. But a clear path, a path that shows you that you can get to where you ultimately want to go. I'll do this and this, even though it doesn't make any sense because it's going to be leading me to to where I want to go.
00:55:43
Speaker
Absolutely. And you need to speak to a performer in the in the language that they understand. So a lot of clinicians will rightfully so that re know we'll we'll we'll talk about all different types of concepts and and sort of the different you know apparatus or things and in terms of sometime medication or whatever is prescribed, whatever is needed, but you need to speak to a performer um in the language that they'll understand. So here's what we're doing. Because of this, this is the result. You won't see the the the outcome right away, but in two months time, this is this is what's gonna happen. um And because of that, if a performer doesn't understand, why? Unless they're desperate, unless they can't move or they've lost their voice entirely and the singer has lost their voice, they're out of laryngologists and they're go you know they're on put on vocal rest. If they've come to their very end of themselves,
00:56:34
Speaker
then they have no choice. But there's a whole window of people in between that can still perform slightly, but they're struggling. And I think a lot of injuries can be avoided if you address that much earlier on. And again, it comes back to that trust. I've had performers say, well, I don't trust that I don't trust. The clinician doesn't know me. They don't know my my my performing. They don't know my instrument. Why would I why would i go see them?
00:57:03
Speaker
And it's a shame because clinicians can offer such wealth of understanding and support. It's medicine. It's what we need it. It's important.
Podcast Conclusion
00:57:13
Speaker
Well, Leslie, I wish you continued success in your own practice with others and your own performances ah in your career. Everything is wonderful to talk to you, get to know you. I've learned a ton. Thank you again so much for your time. Thank you for everything. And we'll talk to you soon.
00:57:28
Speaker
You're so welcome. It's been a real privilege to be here today. Thank you for having me. And that puts a bow on this episode. If you want to find out more about Leslie's career, you can go to her website. The information is in our bio. If you want more information on athletes and the arts, please go to athletes and the arts.com. And if you like the episode, please feel free to leave a review. For Yasi Ansari, I'm Stephen Karajanis. And this has been the athletes and the arts podcast.