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Get Busy Performing or Get Busy Crying with Anna Dreslinski
87 Plays1 month ago
Our topic today is resilience in performance, overcoming obstacles to make it in the performing arts. Tasi and Steven talk with up-and-coming star Anna Dreslinski, a singer/dancer who is currently performing in the opera Ainadamar at the Met in New York. She straddles the worlds of opera and musical theater, performing in shows such as West Side Story, Amadeus, and others, but she’s had to overcome many different issues along the way. This includes hip surgery, injuries keeping her out of rhythmic gymnastics, and abuse at the hands of Dr. Larry Nassar, the imprisoned US Gymnastics physician. Her life lessons are inspirational, and you won't want to miss this episode.
WARNING: This episode discusses sexual abuse, and although no graphic detail is described, the topic may be sensitive for some of our audience, so we want to issue this warning in advance.
For Anna's page with the Met Opera, go to: https://www.metopera.org/discover/artists/soprano/anna-dreslinski/
Instagram @adreslinski
For more on Athletes and the Arts, go to http://www.athletesandthearts.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Episode Topic
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello there, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Athletes and the Arts podcast. Along with my co-host, Jassy Ansari, I'm Stephen Karaginas, and thank you so, so much for taking time out of your day to tune into our show. Please let us know if you like our show by leaving a review. And if you want to learn more about what we do with Athletes and the Arts, go to our webpage at athletesandthearts dot.com to listen to other podcast episodes and access all of our resources.
00:00:47
Speaker
Now, our topic today is resilience and performance.
Anna Drezlinski's Career and Challenges
00:00:51
Speaker
Overcoming obstacles to make it in performing arts, make it in musical theater, even make it all the way in opera to the Met in New York. Our guest today to talk about her life and accomplishments is singer and dancer, Anna Drezlinski, who is currently performing in the opera, Anadamar.
00:01:09
Speaker
She straddles the worlds of opera and musical theater, but she's had to overcome many different obstacles and issues along the way. But first, we need to issue a warning to our listeners. Now, part of our show today is gonna cover sexual abuse, specifically from Dr. Larry Nassar, the former US gymnastics physician who is now serving multiple life sentences for abusing scores of women over a period of 20 years. Now, we are not planning on getting into graphic details,
00:01:37
Speaker
But this topic may be sensitive for some of our audience, and so we want to issue this warning in advance.
Transition from Gymnastics to Performing Arts
00:01:42
Speaker
One disclaimer, though, Anna has been a patient of mine for many years, so we go way back in working with her obstacles. So on with the show. Anna, we're so excited to have you here with us today. Hello. It's nice to be here with you both. Thank you for inviting me. So tell us a little bit about how you started in performing. You start with dance. Was it musical theater? Where did you begin?
00:02:06
Speaker
Yeah. So when I was young, my mom put me in ballet and I got a little bored with that. and She put me in artistic gymnastics. and And that also wasn't, it was a great fit, but she felt that I was too muscular and people might think I was too masculine looking. Actually, it was one of the main reasons. um And then she also was worried about injuries. And so she actually saw this clip on Sesame Street about rhythmic gymnastics. And so she wanted to have me try that.
00:02:37
Speaker
And we found a gym that was actually pretty good. That was in Michigan, pretty close to where I lived. So I started as a rhythmic gymnast and started competing first. And then after my injuries in high school, I started, I just did a musical because I couldn't really do anything else. My body just like wasn't able to dance at that point in my life. And from there I learned, or I went to school, I went to college for vocal performance because I kind of caught that theater bug, and in vocal performance you study opera.
00:03:11
Speaker
And then post-graduation, I started doing a really good mixture of both musical theater and opera. So now I still kind of bounce back and forth between the two, depending on the show. um But ah yeah, i I kind of do both. And I kind of both dance in them or i sing in them. ah So I'm pretty lucky to have a really solid foundation in both ah art techniques I guess you could say when it comes to both singing and vocal technique and also dancing and all of that so yeah that's kind of my journey was just kind of getting out there and doing it once I graduated.
Exploring Musical Theater and Opera
00:03:49
Speaker
Now was there a shift when you switched from I guess gymnastics to
00:03:58
Speaker
musical theater and then opera. So I guess that that shift mainly between musical theater and opera, what was that like? It still is difficult. um I would say, you know, I went from, you kind of, there's a little bit of a mixture in the Golden Age musicals where you can sing, you know, carousel, and that's a little bit more classically based. might went My first musical out of college was actually West Side Stories that was really dance heavy. um And that was like, you know, something that vocally also was a little bit leaning towards the classical side. And then, um but you know, from there, it kind of went to
00:04:40
Speaker
you know, i I played Joe from um Little Women. And so that was a huge belting role to then like trying to switch to go sing or to understudy for Julie in Carousel, right? So they're just different techniques in the same way that singing for recording is different from singing live and, you know, in performance. And so you just have to kind of train your voice to you do certain vocal exercises to kind of switch.
00:05:04
Speaker
I do feel that opera is a little bit less accessible, so I think that being on stage gives me a different perspective when I'm in operas coming from the musical theater world. um But the switch really technique-wise is just about making sure that you have the set of you know exercises that you do to ensure that your voice is prepared for either style of singing and that you're placing it in a healthy spot.
00:05:28
Speaker
Now for vocal performance courses, when you were in college, did you have to take those vocal performance courses regardless of if you wanted to go into opera or not? So as a musical theater artist, was it still important to take those courses?
Love for Opera and Integration of Dance
00:05:45
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And I had not decided whether or not I wanted to do opera or musical theater when I was in college. Actually, really, the only reason that I studied it was that I didn't really know what I wanted to study. And two, they offered me a scholarship. So I had to take vocal um courses every every semester that I was there. And you have to give um these recitals your junior and your senior year. And those are called your juries. I mean, we did them, but they weren't as important.
00:06:15
Speaker
Until they got to like junior and senior year, but your juries allow for you to move forward or not but I Still I love I did fall in love with Opera when I was in college ah But yeah, I had to take all of the courses hi Yeah, i have yeah required why Why did you fall in love with Opera in college like what? Was exciting about it um The first opera I did was Johnny Squeaky, which was written by Puccini. And it's ah an opera buffa or like a funny comedy. And I had so much fun doing it. And it was way more active than other and funny. It was so much funnier than um other operas that I had seen. So
00:07:02
Speaker
I think that's why I was like, oh, I didn't know opera could kind of be this fun. And so that's when I really fell in love with it. And also it just it feels there's something so fun about the way that singing classically feels in your throat that I feel the way that it like vibrates in your body. um So I really just enjoyed it and had a lot of fun. And it's like, oh, I guess I can sing really high. This is cool.
00:07:26
Speaker
Now in the performing theater, the musical theater world and the opera world, is there like with the purists of each world, is there a, I don't want to say antagonism, but is there like a snobbery, like he's looking down upon one versus the other, like improv theater actors like myself were always kind of looked down upon by musical theater people because like, oh, you just make up as you go along, huh? Oh, that's cool. So like how was it, what's it like straddling the line there?
00:07:55
Speaker
it is there is very much I would say not necessarily as much. of ah I haven't experienced it among the actors and the singers. um I got very lucky that I worked very early on in my musical theater career with Mary Zimmerman, who is known for her Madam Butterfly.
00:08:12
Speaker
And so she was somebody who was a musical or an opera director who also bridged the gap to musical theater. They think that that really positioned me well later on to be seen as respected within the opera world, but also in the musical theater world because of who she was in the theater that she was working with and where we performed at. So I got very lucky in that. But there is very much, and you know, when the chorus mode, you know, when people are, you know, when you're in a chorus that people look at you like, why would you want to walk and sing?
00:08:42
Speaker
um know by And like why this is like this is just too active, you know, like this isn't what opera is. So there definitely is this concept of a purist concept of not only just like the vocals and how it should be sung, but also the movement and how opera is supposed to be and that it's not possible for us to do X, Y, and Z um because that's that's very musical theater, you know, so we don't want to fall into that category, you know, because that would be horrible, but yeah. i haven't And then I think a lot of people from the musical theater side think that opera is very boring. And they're not wrong in the sense that, you know, we're trained as a society today for things to be faster paced, and we that's our tolerance. um But yeah, there's very much people, I get it on both sides, are like, how could you stand that? How could you do that? And like, ah you know, we do it. You find the silver linings.
Injuries and Recovery Journey
00:09:34
Speaker
Is dancing traditionally allowed in opera?
00:09:39
Speaker
So it's very interesting. Originally, musical history wise, it took a very long time for dance and for music to come together. Number one, I think that the foundation of music, it was built on like, you know, back way back in the day before dance was really allowed.
00:09:55
Speaker
Um, it was built on polyphony first, right? Which meant that there were all of these different like vocal lines that were interweaving and I will say the opera i'm currently in ina demar Reminds me and i'm like, of this is why music and dance it makes for a long time because dance Is typically, you know done to like a more overarching theme or a melody whereas on what you're singing might not support that and so it's kind of like, you know rubbing your stomach and patting your head When you're trying to sing something that is very different from how you would dance it, right? um And the way that the mediums. So no, it wasn't traditional when opera was first created. And then there was horse ballet that was incorporated into it by the King of France. He was very into horse ballet.
00:10:40
Speaker
Um, and then it was very, it's, and it still is very much, you have your dance core who performs and they are, you know, high level trained dancers and they just do the dancing. And then your chorus just does the chorus parts and just kind of stands fills in, is not a part of any movement really is really not a part of movement. And then you have your supers who do more of the acting and they don't sing at all. And then you have your leads who, you know, park and bark for the most part is what we call it an opera. Um,
00:11:10
Speaker
So, yeah, it wasn't traditionally mixed, but it definitely is now. However, there's ah like the current production I'm in is really breaking that mold. And her whole goal, Deborah Kolker, is doing this show to show that she doesn't want people to know the difference between a dancer and a singer on stage.
00:11:28
Speaker
So we are the the singers of like the Minas or like the ensemble is dancing and singing. And I have to say it's very hard because it's a flamenco opera, which means there's polyrhythms happening. And so, you know, you're you're trying to dance to things that are done to a different melody that than what you're what you're singing. And it it can be very complicated. And I am a dancer as well. I just performed in the dance corps in Turandot with LA Opera. And this is still far more again, just like building those pathways in your brain where you're like, okay, I have to pick my foot up on and there and the, you know, the dancers are counting an eight and I'm counting in, you know, four, four, which is so it's just so different than mediums, you'd think that they'd mix better. But sometimes it really makes you realize the difference between the technique of musical theater and opera this show specifically. So if you're like singing an aria, I mean, you can't be dancing too much, I would think
00:12:23
Speaker
during that, correct? I mean, is it more like, or is it now opera being, as I mean, do you think ah opera is kind of forcing itself to meet the needs of the people more with this? You know, a couple centuries ago, you know, dance was outlawed in opera, like ah emperor Emperor Joseph of Austria, um made famous in the movie Amadeus, but like, is this more like a pressure to give people more, you know, get more people involved in and interested in opera?
00:12:46
Speaker
I think that Deborah does have that concept. as she's and As she put this together, I think that that was what she wanted to reach a new audience. um And I think she's doing that very well. I think it's much more engaging and palatable. I don't know that it was necessarily the goal. I think it was what she had in mind that was that also matches up with what we are currently um you know taking on as ah or are interested in or are hungry for it in our society.
00:13:13
Speaker
but yeah it So I think it meets that goal. I don't know that it was necessarily like always the main goal, but I think now as we've gotten responses, as it's been done in a couple of different places, that is one of the main takeaways from audiences is, oh, like I don't have to be an opera lover and I could love this opera. So yeah. Interesting. Cool.
00:13:34
Speaker
So back in high school, you mentioned about the different injuries you had with rhythm of gymnastics. And most folks don't really get rhythm of gymnastics in the first place. When you just talk about it, they don't quite get how physically demanding it is from a flexibility and stability and an effort standpoint. um how did like How do these injuries come about?
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, so I do remember kind of when it happened. I had always had knee, ankle, and lower back issues um that I was always battling, but I had undiagnosed hip dysplasia and it eventually led to, while I was in doing like a lot of stretching and over splits specifically, um my coach sat on me and they would always like push down and and sit on you and put their whole weight on you. And my my hip, actually, my right hip tore out of socket.
00:14:24
Speaker
and then you know popped back in, but it still had done like a lot of damage at that point. um But it was not caught. Unfortunately, I was, ah you know, a victim of go to see Dr. Larry Nassar, and you still get cleared to compete because they need you to. um And so, yeah, I actually trained on it for a little bit, but like my whole leg and body just like wasn't working properly. And I just wasn't getting the proper care that I needed for a couple of months after it happened. um But yeah, that was I was stretching in over splits, which is
00:14:59
Speaker
the foundation of rhythmic gymnastics. I will say it's more of a Russian style of rhythmic gymnastics. Extreme flexibility was more pushed by Russians than it was by the Bulgarians. um And there really are two very stark differences between the two styles of rhythmic gymnastics. The Bulgarians are more into the apparatus handling and the technique of that and using it more whereas in the Russians were so much more about flexibility and more balletic and didn't really move the apparatus much. So yeah, i was I was actually in Bulgaria for a little while training there. um And yeah, so I was definitely more of the Bulgarian side, but still the extreme flexibility is still extreme compared to every other sport out there, even if it was a little less of a focus for that style of rhythmic gymnastics.
00:15:45
Speaker
How far did you go in the rhythmic gymnastics as far as like national, international competitions? How well did did you do with your head? Well, I was, I did some international competitions when I was in Bulgaria. Um, but that was right when I was injured because that's when your body is going through puberty, or at least for me, I was 14 when it happened. And, um, but yeah, I was, I went, I was on the U S junior national team. I had done junior Olympics. I competed um as a level 10 in, you know, Bulgaria. And then unfortunately, um, yeah, my injury.
00:16:15
Speaker
happened and it happened right before competition season started. And so my first competition in I remember I was because the injury then obviously like caused other injuries and I had stress fractures in my back from not supporting myself properly. And I was again cleared to compete and I like remember Doing an element and I was basically like upside down and and like, you know bent in half And I just remember like waking up on the floor and like I don't know what my routine is because I was in just so much pain Yeah, and so after that was when I finally got like a good looking at and and that's when I finally was like Oh, you actually have this pretty significant injury So yeah
00:17:01
Speaker
Is that what shifted you out of gymnastics? Was it the injury? Yes. So I had i had to have four or three or four surgeries that first year um just to try and like and then a full hip reconstruction. Wow. And then you know there were a lot of things that went poorly with that from the diagnosis of it.
00:17:25
Speaker
you know having to First, have it cleaned up, the labor was torn, there were a lot of like other issues from when it you know popped out. Then to have to go in and to reform the actual socket um or like the the pelvic bone, they like you know kind of reposition it and screw it back in, and then for the bone to regrow. But I also, we found out later,
00:17:46
Speaker
um you know I had had metal allergies, and we had told the doctor this, but the screws that they put in my hip, I was allergic to. And we didn't find that out for a long time, and it really inhibited the growth like my bone growth back in and then my recovery.
00:18:00
Speaker
um And then also was told that dance was kind of its own form of of therapy. And so the surgeon did not allow for me, or he didn't really give me any physical therapy. And I still had the screws in my hip at the time. So just recovery was really, really hard because I both lost USA Gymnastics support with Dr. Larry Nassar and seeing him as a sports medicine doctor. like So there was a lapse in who my outside doctor was while I was going through surgery and you know trying to recover from it.
00:18:30
Speaker
um So it kind of left me a little bit high and dry there when I really needed a lot of support and help. And so I just didn't get that recovery that I needed. They finally took the screws out through another surgery. There were some issues with that. And then, um yeah, so surgery, it was just a lot
Impact of Dr. Larry Nassar's Actions
00:18:44
Speaker
of recovery. And then I wound up with this lump in the front of my hip that actually wasn't diagnosed until much later when I was starting to see Dr. Kara Genis as my sports medicine doctor. That was a complication from surgery that was also not diagnosed properly. And so it took about
00:19:00
Speaker
almost 10 years to really recover. i Sorry, guys. And this this all started when you were 14. Yeah. Wow. Yep.
00:19:11
Speaker
So when I did West Side Story in 20, gosh, I want to say it was like 2016, 2017, that was when I finally found the bone growth out the front of my hip because it basically like when they reattached everything, they didn't tell me to do the proper physical therapy. So that like pulled on the front of the bone and because I was so young at the time, it caused this bone growth to come out the front. And it happens to about one in a thousand patients.
00:19:39
Speaker
um It was really hard for me to kind of pallet that because I went to see Dr. Karaginas when I was doing West Side Story and I was like, you know, this is like really hurting me. And he was like, why have you never brought this up to to me before? Like you've got this lump on your hip and like, it's like, well, the doctor told me there was nothing I could do about it. Like I i went to doctor after doctor after doctor.
00:19:57
Speaker
and I went to the the surgeon, he told me it's no big deal. Then I went to ah the other surgeon and they said, go back to your surgeon. and you know and It just got passed and back and forth between doctors for many years while that was. and I just finally like, reason I did West Side Story was like, you know what? It's just pain. It's just a lump. Nobody's told me it's in like that much. It's just pain. and That was when Dr. K was like, no, like this is totally like sticking out of the front of your leg and inhibiting everything. I had to have another surgery to remove it.
00:20:26
Speaker
um Yeah, so it was uh, it's been a long recovery. So 2019 was my last or yeah 2019 is my last surgery for my hip so But you never let it stop you though. You kept on you know moving on what what uh, powered you to do that Um, my mom did a really good job of helping me to move forward and she was really inspiring she said you know as much as I guess in some senses there were some bad habits of, it's just pain, I'm fine because you're kind of taught that when you're younger in the gymnastics world or at least my gymnastics world. um And then, yeah, beyond that though, I think my mom really inspired me and then I just really wanted to move. I'd spent so much time
00:21:13
Speaker
that year when I had my surgery between the wheelchair and my big surgery and my crutches, I just couldn't move and I had to sit and watch the world go by and I just never wanted to be in that position again. So I felt very lucky to be able to move and to be able to dance and to be able to do anything. I was told by the surgeon that I would never walk normally again and I definitely would never dance again, but I just said, you know what, I love it. And so I'm going to do whatever I can with this and I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to prove everybody wrong.
00:21:41
Speaker
So a little ah a lot of things kind of encouraged me. And you did. and you did Yes. So now you mentioned um that you'd seen Dr. Nasser as a patient and because you're in rhythm of gymnastics, you got into that fold of his care. um So can you talk a little bit about your experience with him? Because obviously, one of the things you mentioned that I thought was very interesting is that you got put back out there.
00:22:06
Speaker
even though you're having pain and injuries, that's one of the um aspects of his story that folks didn't quite get is that he was always um more interested in making the coaches happy versus taking care of the patients. So unfortunately, this may be a little sensitive, but can you share with us a little bit about what's what happened with him?
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um And I will say that it took many years and also being treated by you, Dr. Cardenas, that helped me to understand exactly how things really are are meant to be and to, you know, both experiences have given me obviously a lot of wisdom, but it took understanding sports medicine from being treated by you and by good practices to really compare the two and understand what a disadvantage I really had at the time.
00:22:53
Speaker
um And even my parents and coaches, like nobody really quite and understood. right And that's like the bottom line about this whole experience. um So he saw me pretty much as soon as I started doing rhythmic gymnastics because you know like I had this structural issue for my hips. So I was definitely somebody who saw him a lot. um you know He would see me on his lunch breaks. like we I knew him pretty well. um And he would always kind of I think that the biggest issue with him was that, and I, again, did not really understand this until being treated by you, he didn't do things that were actually helpful to you. And you didn't realize it, right? Like, you know, there's no reason that for a hip problem, you really should ever be only focusing on, especially my hip problems, you should ever be focusing on releasing the tailbone and releasing, you know, parts that are down there that I'm like, I understand pelvic floor and I understand
00:23:48
Speaker
from a different from a perspective now and how it impacts things. But still, it was never really treating the root of my problem. So then these things just continue to compound and compound. And he was never helping us to actually get any better. But he needed the he needed us to compete in the same way that the coaches needed us to compete. So, you know, he had an x ray of my back and said she has stress fractures. But you know like It's not that bad. You know you could just take like you know a week or two off afterwards and it'll probably be okay, but we can just do this medicine. and Then you would do these like massages or release releases that were not actually treating you. right so Then you're then approved to go out on the floor, not only not getting the care that you need, but also being given approval that you should not be given or clearance that you should not be given. so
00:24:36
Speaker
I think those things just continued to compound until a lot of us got really hurt because we were never actually getting treatment that we needed. And so that really impacted us um further down. But you know when you get clearance from a doctor, everybody believes it. So that was really, really hard because you're in pain, but you're also taught back then you know that it's that it's just pain, you know like smile through it.
00:24:57
Speaker
you don't need to cry about it, it'll go away. um But then my pain didn't go away. And that's the really hard part.
Support Systems and Psychological Impacts
00:25:03
Speaker
And I think that's the same for a lot of gymnast and other athletes who had been seen by him is that you know I've had a lifetime of this that if it was caught at a different time, I would have had a very different life body wise and in this in this body. So yeah, it was very hard to look back on that and to realize I was just to cog in a wheel that they just needed me to get out there and compete. And of course you take this on.
00:25:29
Speaker
mentally too, where you're like, i'm and I'm so important, I have to compete. And then you feel like you have to do this. right And you take this on and you're like, it's just you know it's just so, and then nobody was there to protect you. It was 14 when it happened to me. And so for years before that, I was just a kid, you know? hu And so you're just really, you don't even realize like how your mind has been spun in this direction to think that this is what the outcome should be, has to be otherwise.
00:25:55
Speaker
You're no good. And in some ways, you know, my fear was confirmed when after my surgery started, I was just left high and dry by everybody who I thought was supposed to be there to help me. um but I'm in a much better place now from it and I've learned a lot and I definitely know what is a treatment and what is not a treatment now. So that's very good information to have. Who do you feel was your biggest support system during that time? Because i when you share your story, a couple of things come to mind for me. One is you're losing the ability for your mind and body connection, right? So you're feeling pain.
00:26:36
Speaker
you're seeing something on an x-ray. The doctor is seeing something on an x-ray, but no one's really doing anything about it. So youre as you're competing, there's pain. Do you listen to that pain or do you just keep going? So that impacts the ability to like rest when your body's saying you need to be resting or you need to take a break. um I mean, that that's definitely one of the biggest things that I'm like, oh my gosh, when you're 14, it's like a foundation. You want to help 14 year olds build that foundation of building that confidence within themselves and listening to their bodies. What do you feel like got you through it?
00:27:19
Speaker
ah and Honestly, my mom it was my mom was with me for most of my competitions. and you know Sadly, she was in the room with Dr. Larry Nassar and things were happening and she didn't even know um like what exactly. Because again, like you learn to trust him and that's like the crazy part about all of this. um But she really was the one who said her body isn't moving right. Somebody needs to take a different look at her right after my injury and said something is not right. she's She's doing this thing I've never seen her do before. Somebody needs to look at her differently. And she really fought for me to be looked at differently. And she told me,
00:27:57
Speaker
you know She was really angry when the doctor the surgeon said, you know you're never going to walk again. I mean i can only imagine for her palating the news you know that Dr. Larry Nassar took her out of the room and he said, like she's she's like done. She's never going to compete again. like this is It's bad. like This is a really significant injury. so That was like the one time I was spared from this trauma from him. but you know My mom going through that, um she really encouraged me. you know I wanted so badly. I just think back on it. you know After the surgery even, just like I was like, mom, I just really want to like go and do it. She was like, you've got to sit down. You've got to sit. Your body's telling you to sit. You're in pain. It's swollen. like Sit down and stop moving. So she had to teach me that. And i I rebelled against her in that. I remember her looking away for two seconds and crutching over and trying to just like go swim in a pool because and she was like, you what are you doing? good
00:28:49
Speaker
you know So my mom really helped me with that for sure and calming me down or trying to get me to calm down and sit still and listen to my body. But I don't think I really fully learned it until much later. And I think I'm still learning it today. It's something I'm still continuing to understand. um Yeah, for sure.
00:29:10
Speaker
So when everything went down with Dr. Nasser all those years later um and you saw the you know court cases and the victim statements and everything being done, what was your reaction? What was your first reaction to all of us and how did you respond after that? I, at first, avoided learning
Processing Trauma and Legal Hesitations
00:29:31
Speaker
about it. I took the avoidance tactic because I think it was too painful for me to see somebody that I had so much trust in and so much love go through this. And I was like, I never went through anything that was, he always did everything that I needed to do. And I don't want to hear about it because like it just didn't happen to me.
00:29:49
Speaker
didn't happen to me was my first initial reaction. And then I, you know, was able to not only be seen by Dr. K, and then also, you know, some other doctors for especially, you know, as you become a woman, you start seeing an OBGYN. And then so talking about some of those things, and just like pelvic floor and certain therapies for certain things, I started to get this inkling of like, wait,
00:30:12
Speaker
wait, wait, wait. And then it really was watching, I was convinced myself, I was like, it's time to sit down and like watch this documentary. um There was a documentary that came out about the gymnast who had experienced um and gone through the lawsuit. And that was when I realized wait a second, what he did wasn't actually a treatment. Because you don't have that definition, right? You don't have anything to go off of them other than what you've experienced. So for me, that, it shook me to my core. And when I tried to kind of open up and talk about it, I think the first reaction um to somebody who was very close to me, i you know I bear him no ill will, but somebody who was very close to me um at the time,
00:30:57
Speaker
was like, well, why didn't you just, well, why won't you just like pursue legal action? And I was like, just where I'm at, mentally, physically, I'm still like reeling from the fact that I was so young that my mom was involved in this. And like, you know, she was there in the room with me when he decided to do certain things. Now, it's just,
00:31:16
Speaker
really crazy to me. So it was just too much to process. And I think because I also had such a bad experience with the surgeon after that, that it was just so many layers of doctors not listening to me and telling me that my pain wasn't real and telling me that that lump was nothing and not his faults to then turn around 10 years later and retract that statement and be like, Oh, I have a picture of it from 10 years ago. Right? Like, so it was just like, I think there was just so much going on at the time and I was still dealing with the hip problems that I just felt like my experience wasn't as bad as other girls. And I was like, no, it like it wasn't that bad. And then also, like I'm still dealing with it. And I've got to get through this mental you know struggle, I guess you could say, to to fight for what I still have today.
00:32:00
Speaker
so and I had a ah pretty big, like I kind of shut down for about two weeks after seeing the the documentary and then starting to like really research and even Dr. K had asked you a couple of questions during one of the visits that I had with you and you're like, that's not you know you that's not like this is how you treat that.
00:32:21
Speaker
like cool. Like that's not a treatment and it should have never happened to me. So yeah, it was a learning experience for sure. And just a lot of Googling and a lot of asking questions and a lot of finding people that I trusted and trying to just like talk through. But I think it would have broken my parents at the time to know that all of this had happened and they were literally there for it. Um, so it was just too raw at the time.
Power Dynamics and Advocacy in Healthcare
00:32:49
Speaker
And I think because I had gone from a place that, well, that, that didn't happen to me. And you know, like I'm not in the same place as those other girls because I was so young and so brainwashed that it just was really hard to, to go from that far of an extreme of an opinion to now this other place is like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe what happened to me. And I didn't know it.
00:33:10
Speaker
um And I will say it was uncomfortable enough with him that I have a very vivid memory of him saying, well, this is going to make you feel uncomfortable, but I'm going to, you know, he uses all these big words and, you know, but you don't really know that I'm going to put some pressure here and then i'm put some pressure here and it's going to make everything feel better and it's going to boop up beep and he would like make these little like like sounds. So he like you know puts you know some acupuncture things in like different spots. And then he told me, all right, and it's going to be all uncomfortable. And it was uncomfortable. And I grabbed his hands. And my mom was in the room. And he literally laughed at me. He said, hey, mom, you know can you help me?
00:33:47
Speaker
And so she helps to hold my hands in order for something for him to do like a treatment that was not a real treatment. so oh And so a lot of that just, you know, I think all of those memories and trying to process like what had happened, the fact that my body had the reaction and yet again was told it was not real. It wasn't what, you know, and then to bring my whole family into this.
00:34:09
Speaker
It was just, it was really hard to kind of process that as I was older and it was in the past and like, do I really want to drag everybody through all of this? So it's been um a long journey um of healing for sure. So many different aspects that kind of went into it. Yeah. Physicians play such a big role. um I mean, it's throughout the whole lifespan.
00:34:33
Speaker
I mean, there are so many reasons that young people, even older people go to the doctors. And so I, I mean, Steve, Dr. Karaginas, what do you think is a good way to educate? I don't even know how to ask this question. Like it's more, how do we educate people about knowing what's appropriate in a medical session? Because I don't think I mean, I don't even know how anyone would know you trust the doctor. Right. Well, i know this and the sad thing is, is that like, Anna, this is amazing what you're talking about right now, because in the way you're able to frame things. Yeah. is big A big part of us is talking about this. Can you get out there? But like a couple of days ago, there's an article in Michigan papers about a doctor who is taking pictures of hundreds of ah people, patients of all ages from like nine years old, all the way up to like
00:35:32
Speaker
56 years old, there's a gymnastics photographer who was busted within the last year. um you ah got A person who went to different gyms. So it's still out there. And I think the biggest thing that big reason why we waited so long to have this kind of show in the first place is because we want to make sure that we can you know, do some good with talking about this. ah But yeah, doctors, it's, it's sell all about the power dynamics, right? So we have an unbalanced power dynamic, we talk about this so with like, you know, as an being a dancer, and a singer with a, you know, choreographer, a director, the power dynamics are are imbalanced towards one side. So it's easy for that person to take advantage of that. And so um I just did a documentary recently with someone from Great Britain about Larry, and we talked about how
00:36:18
Speaker
And in there's different elements of of power dynamics that come from either like youre you have a title like medical director, or you're an expert, or you're a celebrity. um There's different sources of power, and he seemed to have all those combined in one.
00:36:36
Speaker
Right. And so I imagine that when you and your mom talk about this or when you guys talked about it, probably, you know, realize just how one of the biggest things that people I thought was impressive about the victim statement hearings was how everybody felt betrayed and duped.
00:36:53
Speaker
And because they, I mean, not not I don't think many patients will ever say it to me because I see them, I treat them, and they're gone. um And, you know, for a handful of people, you know, a small percentage, but decent percentage, we have relationships of some sort. But for so many people to say that, I thought you were my friend, I thought you protected me. And and the way he was able to make these relationships so you know, even you even you said yourself, you really cared for him. um I mean, that must have been, that that part of this must have been very hard for you and your mom to reconcile, I'll assume.
00:37:24
Speaker
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I don't think that there's any way for her to have known I think that in today's day and age with like, information more readily available at our fingertips, um you know, just with even just people sharing their experiences on tik tok and Instagram and other mediums is really important for carrying that forward and talking about it. But you know, especially back when I was that young, I mean, when I was first seeing him and I'm not sure anybody was really even using the internet.
00:37:52
Speaker
You know, so like, that was a long time ago that, you know, there's been so many tech advances to really help to protect people and know what to do. But, you know, I think the difference too, and like, there's this line of, you want to be, I want to be able to trust. I think, you know, Dr. Kiernan, we have a relationship because we've both gone through this and also because it's been like so many, I've brought you a lot of firsts with my, with my conditions, which has been great um to kind of go through that and trust each other. but also because we've been through this experience i think that there is like this natural relationship that's going to happen right where we talk about these things but i don't have that with any other doctor that i see right because i've learned you know like you know you want to question things but also i'm very vocal now in my in anything where i'm like oh that's not an answer for me or that doesn't work for me can we try a different thing
00:38:40
Speaker
um you know There's lots of different ways that I think we just weren't taught to say that in doctor's appointments. um And so learning to do that has been really helpful.
Challenging Power Hierarchies in the Arts
00:38:51
Speaker
And even for my mom, you know she's like, well, you know i I don't really need to go see anybody even though this hurts. I'm like, stop. No, no, this is something we've been taught. like You gotta go see somebody if something hurts. That's okay to go see somebody. It's okay to recognize pain. But I think we're still on learning that. um Even today and we we check each other and you know even in dr. Carradines office before i left for this contract. I don't think he was like you know oh this isn't firing because of this and so i was like oh yeah i just have a dumb but and that was like the same phrasing that we used see that doctor learn as i would use it like no stop when i that's not that there's no such thing as a dumb but like there's something getting in the way your body is not dumb and like.
00:39:28
Speaker
So we got to deconstruct in that moment. I was like, holy, like this, it's amazing how that has impacted that. I'm like, I'm still just like, no, it's just, you know, that I'm not doing enough or that my body isn't good enough or that, you know, it's just whatever. He's like, no, like that's not true. And it was amazing to get to dispel that. So again, like those experiences when you're with a doctor where you can be like, well, not really, and kind of wrestle together, it's good, you know, it's really positive. um So anyway, yeah, it's amazing how I'm still deconstructing.
00:39:57
Speaker
No, but you you touch on something that ties right into gymnastics and dance is the you know learning to question things and speak up for yourself, advocate for yourself, because that's one of the things we see in in those fields as well in performing arts is that, you know, the choreographer, the director is here way up high and you're down low and you do what they tell you because they've done all this in the past and they're the and they're going to help make your career. So just do what I say. And that now, I think, is something we need to also work on as well.
00:40:28
Speaker
Absolutely, and I even had that a little bit in college with my first vocal coach where I realized she was a mezzo-soprano, I'm a coloratura, which means I'm really super high voice and hers is really low. And she'd been the only voice teacher I'd ever had. And at one point I asked, I was like, you know, I kind of want to study with somebody else because I realized that there was more about technique. And I was demonized. And she like sent me to the dean for causing duress to a teacher. And I was like, there's this whole big email about which is like common practice, by the way, to like study with multiple different teachers. But it was wild to me that again, like she's the one in this position of power who's now
00:41:03
Speaker
blocking me from studying with another person, even though I was experiencing some different, like I had gone to go see um Dr. Hagoichi and who's at U of M for vocal health because I was struggling. I was like, something's wrong. The resonance space is so tight in my face. I don't know what's going on. And I had bad technique and I didn't realize it. And so, you know, here I am trying to get the help I need. And I literally have a teacher telling me that that's going to be bad for me, that that's vocal suicide when I'm already in college. Like it was crazy to me that that is still, and I was like, and I,
00:41:31
Speaker
And you know what I did? i I shut up and I did what she said and i just was I finished out the year and then tried to fix things after school to make it just be easier. And so it's amazing how that even carries over into the arts with vocal technique and how that was offensive to somebody's ego. And I think it's really hard in the arts to stand up because art is both creative and somebody's idea and also technique and so sometimes that blend of things brings the ego in really strongly and so it's really hard to come up against that when somebody's ego is super involved and I see that a lot in the arts space specifically you know.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think listening to that little voice inside of you, no matter what age you are at, is important um because I think we all have this internal light that tells us when something's wrong or when we need to take that next step.
00:42:24
Speaker
But that is pretty powerful and and very resilient of you. Have you ever met with a like a yeah ah mental health professional or like a sports psychologist? I'm just curious if that was even an option for you after everything that you went through.
00:42:44
Speaker
I did not see a therapist until I was 23 years old, 23 or 24. And that was where I finally like dealt with everything. It took a very long time to get even after my surgery, my last surgery in 2019, it still took years for me to really buy as i I love my family, but there was definitely some resistance to therapy and thinking like, you know, I don't need it. I seem fine. Like, you know, there's nothing, but it was carrying over into my relationships. Um, you know, to be very specific, it was also carrying over into my sex life and didn't really realize how that was impacting me and, um
00:43:26
Speaker
you know All of those things came together and like it finally got to a point where I was like, I need to do this. And I made it happen for myself to find somebody that worked for me. um So I never saw a sports therapist specifically, but I did see a really incredible therapist who focused on the whole body experience and understanding like where you hold your stress in your body.
00:43:47
Speaker
And that was when I finally, I was like, this is a therapist for me because I'm, I move and I used to move and I don't have the same abilities that I used to. And I lost so much. And so reconnecting with my body and really feeling like grounded in myself and like acknowledging all of the things that I'd gone through is the first time I acknowledged my journey. Um, she's an amazing, amazing therapist and, um, she's down at U of M and, and she's incredible
Mental Health Care and Personal Growth
00:44:12
Speaker
Genoverse. And then if anybody ever wants to look her up for a great therapist,
00:44:15
Speaker
she's phenomenal and um really helped me to come to terms with what happens to me so world mental health day not to yeah change gear here but world mental health day was on the 10th so it was a couple days ago and instagram obviously was flooded with a ton of different messages and something that stood out to me was the importance of being proactive in our mental health versus reactive so while And I come from a culture where people were questioning the need to meet with someone who's a mental health professional, but I will say, and in my own one-on-ones with different athletes ah in the space of eating disorders, I find that any kind of trigger anyone has, anytime something feels uncomfortable, it is important to reach out to someone if possible. And I feel like the more we can make this streamlined and and
00:45:16
Speaker
And support even the younger generation and meeting with someone that they feel safe with to talk to life would be so much easier Later on. I just I just think back to so many times like even in the world of dance and body image There were so many times I could have met with a mental health professional to kind of dive into just the pressures of dance and performing back in the day. And it would have saved me a lot of time. Yes. I think accessibility is just so hard. And I will say I got very lucky that I knew performers who told me that Gina had come very recommended. But I will say that I know a couple of people who have tried and just haven't found their fit or a therapist yet. Yeah. And that's time consuming to to find somebody. So I think continuing to reach out for resources and like sharing resources, openly sharing resources when you
00:46:09
Speaker
are a performer and you know somebody but like I'm always the first to be like, hey, if you want my therapist phone number, like I will totally give her. I have somebody who's amazing. yeah and um That, because you know word of mouth in today's A&H where there's just like so many options online and like trying to figure out how to pay, how to all of these things, it's hard. And so resources and following you know your podcast and other places that can provide certain direct links to you know certain things is amazing, just wealth of knowledge. So that is, yeah, I agree with you. And even now, I'm still in this space and I'm dancing and now I just turned 30.
00:46:45
Speaker
With that out there and um you know, like things are changing and I'm like, oh my gosh Like I feel like my body is like just feeling so disjointed again and you know immediately I'm like, okay I need to get back to therapy and it's amazing that now I can do that But and it doesn't happen to do it it doesn't always have to be about deep issues like it could just be about transitioning out of a sport and how to navigate transitioning out of different sports and So yes yeah, there's so many ways to utilize these resources. And it's very, very supportive. Absolutely. Absolutely. So now the last couple years sounds like since you met Gina, um you know, Gina actually done pretty well here. So yeah, like we have to give her some
Performing at the Met and Overcoming Challenges
00:47:29
Speaker
props here. But talk ah talk about the last few years here as far as you know, leading up to your big debut here in a few days at the Met Opera.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah. Well, really, I just got rid of a lot of dead weight and just like a mental, anything that was holding me back. I really changed my mindset and she was the person who helped me to... I loved the way that she put everything because it was in a lot of graphs. I was like, okay, so what if? And then when you're thinking this, this is what's actually happening to your brain and this is why you're thinking this or this is where we break the habit.
00:48:03
Speaker
And so I was able to like, and that's how I am, right? I'm a dancer, I'm a singer. So like, you practice and you practice and you practice and you practice. And so I treated mental health the same way. And I practice and I practice and I practice and I, I, you know,
00:48:16
Speaker
went for it when I really didn't think that I was like, and why? like why you know Not me. like I'm not good enough for this. And I actually just posted a little bit about it today that um I'm singing an opera, and I still don't know what a German augmented sixth is. I know i don't i could not pick it out. And there's like you know incredible musicians on this stage, and like here I am with them. And so that imposter syndrome still speaks in sometimes. But yeah, I just kind of went for it. And I said, I want to do this at a top level.
00:48:46
Speaker
um My ultimate goal is that I want to be an artistic director of a theater one day, and so I want to be able to provide the organization that gives um people the opportunity to not only like experience it in smaller neighborhoods and places that don't have access. Like I didn't see my first Broadway show until last year. I'd seen it like, it seemed wicked when it came through Detroit and like, you know, but I'd never gone to New York, never seen a Broadway show like on Broadway. And um so it took me a long time to experience that. So that's my ultimate goal. And because of that, I was like, I know that I need to perform at a top level to get these understandings and experiences.
00:49:20
Speaker
So I said, I'm going to take every opportunity that comes my way that fits with my goals. This is where I want to be. And so I'm going to take these these jobs and these things. And I just started stepping towards it. I just said, I'm going to make it work no matter how. And I found the right people to connect with to not only encourage, but give me support and information.
00:49:39
Speaker
on how to do that. And um I will say that, again, like this industry is all in ah who you know and asking for help. It really is. Your talent takes you, and when you're in the room, you're there. But also knowing somebody and being able to get valuable information from them, not in like a like but just in like an understanding way. it's It's amazing how you just learn so much, um every single audition, every single interaction, every single show.
00:50:06
Speaker
um So yeah, I had actually done Ina Demar in Detroit when it came through, and I was pretty much strictly doing musical theater at that point. I'd done one opera that was out in San Luis Obispo, and then um like it had been a couple of years since I had done like true opera.
00:50:22
Speaker
And then I did this show in Detroit. And when I was there, we it was like still technically like coming out of COVID. And so we wound up losing so many cast members to COVID that i we were going to have to shut down the show because we were down one extra dancer. And I was singing in that show. And so I called them and I said, I can dance it. I know that I can dance this show. So like get me a costume and I can do it.
00:50:45
Speaker
And so that was when Deborah was like, you have to come do this at the Met with me. um It was really sweet. I doubt she even remembers that to be honest with you, but I remember it because it was it was really good for me. right um and But yeah, she was really happy that I came in and I did that and I was able to like take that shot and I called and I called management because they were like, we can't do that in opera. And I said, well,
00:51:05
Speaker
You're gonna either lose thousands of dollars, um you know, for not for missing this performance tonight and having like all of these people or I can go on and they were like, okay, she's going on, you know, so ah yeah, it was it was pretty wild but fun. So It's just taking the experiences that work for you, never counting yourself out from any experience because you think it you like it doesn't... like You obviously say no to things that don't work for you, but sometimes you have to be so realistic with yourself about who you are and what you fit. And that, I think, is something that's like a little bit... like Obviously, I might not necessarily fit this, and I'm okay with that. you know
00:51:44
Speaker
and recognizing that like I might think that I totally fit something, but I don't, or I could think I'm totally a fit or I'm not a fit for this, but I am. You know you can see it when you're in the room and when you're at these auditions and like what they're looking for, you can kind of get a sense of it and feel it. It's super fine to just go and to show up and to use those experiences to better further understand like how you can perform in the room the next time. But yeah, I definitely think you just have to shoot your shot and and go for it.
00:52:12
Speaker
so That's an amazing attitude, because that's one of the things people have ah will ask all the time, how do you handle rejection? And and a lot of times when I'm talking to people, it's like, wait a minute, do you even know that you're the person that would even fit that role in the first place? Or that look, or i mean so many factors that can be involved in that. And so to have that kind of healthy attitude, is it's really hard to get to that point.
00:52:34
Speaker
Yeah, there was a moment where I had gotten to like final callbacks for a Broadway show. And at the very end, they lined us up and I was like, I was on the tall end. And I knew it. I was like, I'm too tall for this. And I was like, why didn't you just say that in the first place first off before I danced my face off for this whole entire day? Because they keep you for so long with these these stupid calls. And they're just it's It's fine, I understand, but like it needs a total like facelift when it comes to the how we audition in this world anyway. I don't think that auditions actually get the best out of people. and so When we talk about auditioning and being in the room and everything, it's it's so crazy how so many different things
00:53:11
Speaker
need to be different to get the best out of people and so many great performers are missed out on because of a bad audition when that is such a bad way to find out if somebody would be good for your show. um I strongly believe that every audition that we have right now is just like truly not what we need because once you're at like there's a basic foundation of technique that you need right whether it's in singing or performance in any capacity or dance but like once you're on a certain level again like this like learn as fast as you can and just like do it as quickly as you can and and clean well it's like that's not ah Get the skills that you're going for but we just rehearsed six weeks for an opera you don't need me to memorize this in 30 seconds flat and perform for dances like that like that's not art and I get but like it's so stupid but that was the moment rounds like doesn't matter if I can kick my face even though I was like you know I'm sitting here i'm like I had to fight through so much to kick my face and here I am kicking my face I'm
00:54:02
Speaker
I'm too damn tall for you. you know its like It's not me. right It's not me. It's literally this though. That was my shift where I was like, well, it could be any day and it could be my day or not be my day.
00:54:14
Speaker
so So how do you talk to dancers when they ask you about how you overcome all this? What kind of parting pearls of wisdom can you give them? Because i mean the resiliency you've built up and the healthy attitude you have now, it didn't happen overnight. And it takes a long time of going through this. And you as you mentioned, counseling and your family and and a lot of soul searching, it took years. So what kind of pearls can you give to others out there who are struggling with similar issues? Keep going keep searching.
00:54:45
Speaker
Yeah, keep searching for what you need because it's out there where you. ah Yeah, keep searching and don't give up. If you both have pain, if you want to be in a specific room, if you want to be ah in a specific dance or a specific company, if you want to fix something, if you change your mind, it's actually all okay. and that's You might feel like your world is ending and you don't know how it's going to come about, but I can tell you right now that
00:55:17
Speaker
through all of the pain. I know that who I am today is who I'm meant to be and I can see, just give it some time. And I know I'm 30, right? So I'm old compared to some dancers and performers and I'm young compared to others, but it's all going to add up and you're going to look back on it. and You're going to be like, i I still don't really get why, but wow, has that carried me through. And I've learned this lesson. Did I need to learn that lesson? Well, I don't, you know,
00:55:42
Speaker
I guess I don't know if I needed to learn it, but I am who I am today from it. So let everything impact you. Let yourself feel everything and search for the things that you need because what you feel is real. What you're experiencing is real.
00:55:53
Speaker
And you're able to then take that, wrestle with it and move forward. It doesn't need to be the end of you. And I think sometimes now that we're able to define so many things, sometimes we see that as the end of our journey, like this happened. And so this is just the way that I am. And that's not true. You get to change your mind and you get to change your destiny. um I wanted to be an Olympic athlete and you know that didn't happen for me.
Sharing Her Story and Conclusion
00:56:15
Speaker
um And it was really sad that it didn't happen for me. And it's okay that that's sad. And now I'm kind of an equivalent. i'm making my debut at a place that I would consider to be the Olympics of opera, right? um And so you can kind of hold all of those things and have your goals and you can achieve them if you put your mind to it, but it also doesn't mean that it's going to happen right now.
00:56:37
Speaker
Right. And I think that that's the other thing is that I thought my, my big moment was going to be when I was 18 years old, 16 years old at the Olympics and doing this stuff. And that was going to be my lifespan for like 25 years. And then I was going to be done because I was going to, my body was going to burn out by the time I was 25. Cause that's common. Um, you can have a lifespan of your career that is far beyond and has far more breath to it and expansion than you could ever imagine. So don't think that today's the last day. Take a year off from performance. Take a year off from dance. You can come back.
00:57:07
Speaker
If I was in a wheelchair and I'm dancing today, you you can come back, you know, and you can perform in a wheelchair. And there's there's a lot of great opportunities for that now. So don't put yourself in a box. Don't think that there's no experience for you. You know, get out there, make the connections, be with people, inspired be inspired by people, and Don't be afraid to send a direct message to to different people and just be like, hey, how'd you get here? What's your story? Because you learn a lot. And I've done so much of that. And I'm really thankful for the people who have shared their journey and their wisdom to me. So don't sell yourself short. Just go where you want to go. And it's okay to change your mind if you decide to go a different direction. so Like that deserves it. Amazing. That was Anna, you were remarkable.
00:57:54
Speaker
Thank you. You're remarkable. Thank you for ah sharing all of your wisdom with us. And is there anything else you want to share about ways that people can follow you or follow your journey? Do you have a new book coming out about all your work and wisdom?
00:58:12
Speaker
No, i I haven't really, I've thought about doing more. This is actually the first time that I'm publicly speaking about my experience with Dr. Larry Nassar. Again, I didn't feel like my story was as important or whatever, again, living in that trapped mind space. So this is a really big first step for me in speaking about my life and experience. And I'm really thankful for the opportunity. So thank you for bringing me on.
00:58:35
Speaker
And if you want to follow me on Instagram, I am on Instagram. Um, but beyond that, I'm not sure what my, what journeys I have ahead of me yet. So, um, yeah, but I'm always, if you need a style, like something to rub into your leg, or if you need a brace or whatever, Dr. K gave me all the good, uh, recommendations and I'm happy to pass them along. I am well-known in my casts for that. If they're like, if you have a problem, ask Anna and she's got a solution for it. funny That's awesome. Yeah.
00:59:03
Speaker
Anna, it was such a pleasure to have you on our show today. I wish you the best of success in your career. I know you'll go far because there's nothing in the world that can stop you. So good luck to you, and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you both so much for your time today and for bringing me on. I am excited for you to see Romeo and Juliet. Tell Kitty I said hi while you're there. And um Dr. K, I'm sure I'll see you when I'm back in town.
00:59:25
Speaker
And that brings us to the end of another episode. Remember, if you like what you hear, please feel free to leave a review and tell your friends as well. For Yasi Ansari, I'm Stephen Karaginas, and this has been the Athletes and the Arts Podcast.