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Episode 43 - School Psychologist Seth Davidson Talks ADHD In The Classroom
87 Plays1 year ago
Paul and Martin (co-Mayors of ADHDville) chat to Seth Davidson, School Psychologist on ADHD at school. We get into accommodations and Paul picks up some tips for his classrooms, and Martin's phone goes off embarassingly in the middle of the pod. Fifty lines for him! A+ all round!
See our beautiful faces on YouTube
SETH'S LINKS:
Universal Design for Learning (UDL)
Know Your rights: Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act
Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
ADHD/Focus music from Martin (AKA Thinking Fish)
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember: This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:00
Speaker
All right, kiddo. Back in the room. This is a guest episode. And look over here, I've got my mate, Seth Davison, school psychologist. In the room. I can't believe it. I know, right? All right, so let's crack on and welcome to ADHDville.
00:00:23
Speaker
Yes, it's my mate, Seth Davison. We met in the park.
00:00:35
Speaker
Yeah, that was that was like four years ago And they're both called Eddie No, no, just there is only one there's only one Eddie and um All right, so yeah, so this is guest guest episode. We have Seth and let's crack on. Over to you, Paul.
Purpose of the Podcast
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, so i'm hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was do diagnosed with the combined AD and the D nine months ago.
00:01:12
Speaker
ah My name is Martin West and I was diagnosed with the combined poo-poo platter of ADHD in 2013. And over here is... Hello, I'm Seth Davidson. I'm a school psychologist. And while I don't have a formal diagnosis of ADHD, I've had quite a journey growing up. Wow. All right. Okay.
00:01:38
Speaker
So, so we're just two mates who by coincidence after 39 years of French has discovered that we're co-ADHD is hurrah. um It's really important to say that this is an entertainment podcast about adult ADHD does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals. Which he is. like i need Maybe this time we can. So don't take any advice from us, especially me. We just hear the kind of all-inclusive ADHD pump bench with room for everyone, including the doppple ganggers you're old to egos youre double doo blaze body doob bla your your chaperones, and your best buddies.
00:02:17
Speaker
Okay, still here? Okay, great, then. Grab your jet packs, your pediloges, your space hoppers, or or any other transportation methods and let us take you to ADHDville, an imaginary town that we credit in our minds. We like to explore different parts of the ADH and the D. Well, okay. Got a bit of a... Yeah, nice of boss there. Yeah, yeah, very, very polite. um And we start off as always in the town hall of ADHDville in the mayor's office where we, the joint mayors of ADHDville, take care of business.
Coffee Preferences and Humor
00:03:03
Speaker
I'm just going through our agenda notes. And this is a guest at guest episode, so let's just crack on. But first, we have to kind of... wish Where shall we go? Where shall we go, Paul? ah think'll i think I think Martin, glad you are. I think we should go to the the coffee shop, I was thinking. Yeah, yeah always it's always a good place. Oh, look. He's got my coffee ready. he is He's already brought his own coffee to take to the the the coffee shops. um You can never have enough, really. Fair enough. All right, let's just bring the car round the front. Let's go.
00:03:50
Speaker
I brought my drink to...
00:04:00
Speaker
All right, I'm getting the drinks in. What are you getting, Paul? I'll get an espresso longo, so long ago ah long espresso. I think that's what you had last time. Yeah. To be fair. Yeah, I would say I could go the opposite and have an espresso ristretto, which is like ah its a really, it's like half an espresso. It's still an espresso. Yeah, it's called a ristretto. it's it's eventually it's going to get like home like homeopathy where there's there's like no coffee in it there's there's just the memory of coffee in a cup yeah yeah delicious memories the delicious memories of coffee which is basically Italians will tell you the for some we're times we're telling you that which threat though is the best way to get your coffee all right just like a super condensed espresso
00:04:57
Speaker
Wow. I like that. Okay. Yeah, I like it i like that too. It sounds like I could have i could have that and into intravenously. and And what are you having? Well, right now I've got my iced coffee, you know, it's in a hot coffee thing. Okay. Iced coffee with a little bit of oat milk and agave. Oh, agave. Yeah. All right. Touch of sweetness. All right. How how hipster of you. Thank you. Actually, no. i but but What am I talking about? is Like, if it was like, local
00:05:31
Speaker
westchester bees yeah honey then that would be hip hipster yeah this is pete's coffee oh yeah petes coffee yeah and um and i'm just having it green tea because i love it i love it And if you're going to have a lot of fun, here.
Seth's Educational Journey and Career
00:05:49
Speaker
um So I think we can start off by kind of going, right, what's your what's been your idea? Your journey or your your journey into into this world? Yeah, well, first, I just got to say Martin and Paul, it's a pleasure to be here in ADHD, Bill. Isn't it? It is. I like this town a lot.
00:06:10
Speaker
And you know, the mayors of it, they're not, they're not too bad. They're not too bad. Well, we're up for really elections shortly. So, uh, Oh, put it in a good word. Yeah. Yeah. So it helps. Yeah. Well, as we mentioned, it would be nice to everyone at the moment, you know, kissing babies. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. Well, as I mentioned before, I've had a kind of unique journey in my own life, um not unlike many other people. I've had a lot of personal struggles, both from the social emotional standpoint growing up um and academically. I was definitely not the brightest student.
00:06:51
Speaker
um And I had my fair share of struggles and with a good amount of support. I managed to get myself through You know grade school and high school um And that's kind of where I turn it around after that um I ended up going to a small school to get an associate's degree in early childhood education and then following that I I got a bachelor's four-year degree in psychology. wow So I had this education degree, which couldn't do a lot with, and this psychology degree that I also couldn't do a lot with. and But I always knew I wanted to work with kids and help kids because you know I knew that it was a struggle for me growing up and I wanted to make it better in some capacity.
00:07:36
Speaker
for other kids. I actually worked at a preschool in Brooklyn and um you know that's where I met Martin about 14 years ago in Brooklyn. I wasn't in the preschool. He was one of my students in the preschool actually. It was like a catch-up year. You know that you know how they keep pushing you back year after year? I was still in in preschool at 45. no Yeah, so mark i was one of my favorite students at that time. ah Okay. but i yeah So i I'm curious, Seth, like, when you when you're doing, ah you know, your four year degree courses, psychology, would did you have a curve like an innate awareness that you had to approach a different from other students?
00:08:19
Speaker
you have a kind of a subco awareness that okay, you just like think differently and learn differently? Yeah, I think so. But I couldn't really pinpoint it. You know, I didn't have any self awareness really, I think at that time, and enough awareness of others to really identify what it was going on. And I think part of it is just I had too much going on in my own personal life, to figure it out, you know, in in grade school. um like But yeah, I always thought, you know, maybe a little bit differently and was a little bit different than some of my peers, for sure. um But yeah.
00:08:57
Speaker
And you know I worked in this preschool. um And while it was great, I loved working with little kids. um To be honest, i was I was losing money every day that I was living in Brooklyn working in a preschool. but um It was really expensive. And I knew I had to go back to school to further my education and do something different. And I learned about this field of school psychology. I'd never heard about it before. I don't even know if there were any school psychologists. growing up for me. I probably could have used one myself growing up for sure. I could use one. I mean, Jesus. I mean, I mean, I think the only thing we had was the school nurse that you'd only see if you're like, you know, if you're barfing up. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. That was it. That was it. Nothing else. You're on your own, pal. Crackhorn was the one.
00:09:54
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Yeah. And I think that was kind of the attitude, um you know, probably for you guys growing up. And even for me, there weren't really many supports for students with ADHD or other disabilities. It's muffled. You know, and I think that that's a struggle. And now there are so many different kinds of supports, which is really nice to see. I think we've come a long way, particularly in the US. um You know, there's obviously still so much progress to be made. um But, you know, I think we've come a long way, which is which is a good thing.
ADHD in Childhood and Parental Openness
00:10:27
Speaker
you know And I know this podcast really focuses mainly on adults with ADHD, but for so many of us, it really starts in the childhood. you know These problems or challenges don't just pop out of nowhere as an adult. They usually stem from childhood. And perhaps some of your listeners have kids who are in grade school who might be struggling with this. So hopefully it's helpful to someone out there in the cloud, in the interwebs. And then also, this seems to me in the ADHD community seems to be a lot of adults who are in kind of going through the journey of getting a diagnosis for their kids and then start to thinking, oh, hang on a minute. I think I've got some of this stuff that's slipping through my pores.
00:11:16
Speaker
o yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure. Doesn't happen a lot with you, it it with your with your, in your school. Do you have that, you know, with parents or something? Oh, good question. Yeah, sometimes that happens. I see Martin's listening intently. Sometimes that happens, but I think more often actually what happens is parents are pretty forthcoming and they'll say, you know I had some learning differences as a kid or I had ADHD or I had a learning disability whatever it is um and now I'm concerned about my child and let's do an evaluation ah to see if you know they have similar challenges that I had or if there's something going on with with you know with Johnny and over here right because that's what it should be like right it should be like that
00:12:04
Speaker
You know, like the parent goes, yeah, I'm kind of like a bit this way. Can you like, you know, can you, you know, what do you think, Mr. salt school So you know, like, it's yeah you know, like there's some sort of ah oh awareness in the whole family and and then then the kid can get some support if they need it, yeah right? Not just like blundering around like like like us, just masking our way through the whole thing. Yeah, sometimes I'm surprised about the parents' openness to to share their own struggles, you know, and they don't need to go into great detail, but just it's enough just to say,
00:12:46
Speaker
you know When I was a kid, I really struggled and in this area or that area. I struggled with focus and attention or I was impulsive. um I think that's a brave of parents and it's really helpful for us as educators as well. Yeah, I guess also, this is them I don't know, when I think there's maybe been a transition in the whole kind of awareness of this as well, that it's less now that, oh, my kid has got a problem, sort him out, you know, And I used the word him as a provocation because it for a while it was just the boys, you know, it just is a boy thing, you know, ah like teenage boy things, you know, misbehaving.
ADHD Behaviors and Educational Supports
00:13:33
Speaker
And now it's, i well, I hope it is anyway, I hope it's now, you know, more of, you know, my mike kid is different, you know, that's it, maybe.
00:13:42
Speaker
yeah And I think you guys have talked about it on previous episodes that, you know, boys do show more externalizing behaviors with ADHD, right? Then their female counterparts and also often looks like things like impulsivity. um You know, they often have more disciplinary referrals as a result of their impulsivity. And then with females, it looks more like an attention um difficulty focusing than so much of the impulsivity. And it's not to say that. Um, you know, the females aren't impulsive. There are certainly some that are, but, uh, to your point, you know, we see especially in adolescents that males just show more of that impulsivity at that age, particularly in that middle school age. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because you, you, you, you deal with like what, 11 to 14 year olds, 11 to 14 year olds, you know, some of the States that's like sixth or eighth grade here. Right. Yeah.
00:14:41
Speaker
Yeah, I can't, I can't get the whole grade system here. Like someone says, oh, fourth grade is like it meaningless. Meaningless, meaningless. Well, you've only been there 20 years. I know, right. I've only been there 20 years. I know, and no I know. I shouldn't know anything. Go on. I've got, for example, I've got, um I teach 14 to 19 year olds. Okay. And I've i've got a student who, she's basically, I'm in Italy, basically she's been made to repeat her year. So she started as a first year and I can see her and I'm thinking ADHD and she's got no one to help her.
00:15:24
Speaker
She's got no help at all. And so like um I just like screaming. I think she's so clearly struggling, you know, ah both physically and and mentally struggling to, you know, deal with, you know, the kind of, I don't know, the kind of um rails that put our children put on these kind of rails of like this is how we measure intelligence this is how we measure success and these kids and it just can't handle it it's like i don't want to be on those rails yeah that's that's so hard yeah which which which which does bring up the question about classroom a
00:16:06
Speaker
classroom accommodations and what can you do? Yeah, um so I don't know what it's like in Italy, um but in the States we have different kind of classroom supports that you might be able to put in place for students who are struggling. Some of them are just general education, broad classroom supports that are just good for a lot of different types of students. Some are more specific supports that involve, you know, special education supports, but um In terms of classroom supports, there's different things that can be put in place like access to flexible seating. That's a big thing for students with ADHD. So, you know, I think when we grew up and, you know, when when when you guys grew up and even when I grew up, the expectation was you sit in your class, you listen to the teacher. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am.
00:16:54
Speaker
Now there's so much more engagement. There's opportunities for movement. So um in our classrooms in my school, they're standing desks at the back of every classroom where any student can access if they need it, whether they have a diagnosis of ADHD. and or not, there's different, um there's like wobbly stools that they just need to kind of shift around in their seat. There's, I was even talking to Martin Offer, there's chairs that have like little bands at the bottom where students can kind of kick them just to get some input. um So it's not so distracting, but they're still getting the input they need. um So there's different kind of fidget sensory tools and flexible seating that all students can access, which is I think a big shift
00:17:38
Speaker
um certainly from you know when i grew up it was none of that then right yeah because like when i grew up or when we grew up the the ruler was always a good one we would just come you know the the wooden rudy just put it on the edge of your desk and then twang it
00:17:56
Speaker
That was always a good one. And then I'll see you. Thank you. And then there was your pencil or your pen was always a good fidget toy. You just like fiddle twirling the pen. Yeah. Twirling, twirling. No, you've said it. I've realized I haven't got a pen in my hand. Oh, no. Now Paul needs us for anxiety. Oh, that's better. It's a classic. A classic. There's a classic big. I know and then it's an Italian bit and then you can you you can flick the little blue pen holder bit
00:18:33
Speaker
three Yeah. Ah, the relief. Oh, the relief. Is that coming through? It's coming across. Yes, it's coming. It's just coming in waves. we seen Oozing. You're oozing it. That sounds amazing, Seth, because like this this girl that I was mentioning, she just can't sit still. And you can see like squirming around on her seat all the time. And the other teachers just like, they're just irritated by it. and so to them she's just a distraction and that's it end of story right. A standing desk makes so much like I would have I would have loved that a standing desk yeah yeah because everyone says brainstorming is better when you're standing if you're in an office environment brainstorming is better when you're standing up because you get more oxygen to your brain
00:19:25
Speaker
Right.
Learning Approaches and AI's Role in ADHD
00:19:26
Speaker
I mean, there's just, this there's just more sort of a movement you could do. You can just, you know, you mean yeah. And I think if you, if you think about it, like you think about what is the purpose of school, right? It's to learn who cares how you're doing it. As long as you're taking in the information and you're showcasing your knowledge, who cares if you're sitting or standing or, you know, you're upside down in your head. What does it really matter in the end as long as you're able to demonstrate that you're learning what you're supposed to be learning? yeah you know but like first i I teach conversation English to Italian students.
00:20:02
Speaker
And there was this this girl once that she got fixed. I could feel her. She like, as soon as I walked into the class, she was fixed on me. And eventually I got around her and she basically, she wanted to present her homework to me, but she didn't want to present it like most of my students do. They didn't want to present it in front of the whole class. So she just presented it to me one-on-one and she blew my mind how good she was. So then I opened a discussion with other teachers and said, I said, look, my class isn't called learning how to speak in front of 30 students. It's called conversation English. If they can do that one to one, I'm more than happy with that, right?
00:20:49
Speaker
huh So they're showcasing their knowledge in a different way. And we do that with our students too, all the time in middle school. um you know Think about how nerve wracking it is. You're going through puberty and you're standing up in front of your whole class. You've got to give a presentation. So often kids will reach out and email their teacher and say, you know can I give this presentation to you after school or during my lunchtime? Or can I make a video? now with technology creatating videos and submit that instead of having to stand up in front of the whole class. That difference is huge. It's huge. Yeah, you know, it's like, who would we don't want to train our kids to be all good at doing a TED Talk? Who gives a damn? You know, nothing and I think at the most of my 35 year career after school, the most people I ever presented to was probably 12 people.
00:21:43
Speaker
you know right and that's normal right it that's pretty normal yeah yeah i do you know what my little light bulb just went off in my head which is part of school, it always it seems to be like it tries to prepare you to to work in the corporate world, right? So the whole sitting down thing, then seems to be okay, right, because they're they're trying to force you to sit at a desk yeah later on. And I'm thinking, okay, right, well, if you get more
00:22:21
Speaker
accommodations in in in the work environment. So you can have a standing desk, you know, like ADHD, for for example, could be more accommodated for you, then that's gonna be good, because then that translates back to school. And yeah hopefully, and hopefully the the the doing stuff like this in school will then influence the working in environment. So it's it's it's like a sort of a So they both influence each other. yeah no mean so so So that ADHD person, that ADHD student will then want certain accommodations or expect it when they go into the work environment. Yeah. yeah And as I said, there's such there's such unrealistic expectations of students, because so as I said, you know most people would know in their career will never have to present in front of more than you know a dozen people, ever.
00:23:18
Speaker
yeah um And there's nothing wrong with that. you god God knows. you know We don't want everyone to be tech talkers. It's quite quite ah quite artificial, actually, I think. Yeah, yeah. um You know, it's interesting. So we're talking about these these classroom based supports. So in the States, we have something called what's called Universal Design for Learning or UDL. And it's really just an approach that offers the flexibility for students to learn in different ways and showcase their knowledge. And so
00:23:53
Speaker
school districts in our area are really having a big emphasis on this UDL, which is a general education approach. And there's so many different tools, right, that students can access. Like if you're reading a novel in class, maybe you're going to pair that novel with the audio book, right? And that way you you're both listening auditorily and then you're also, you know, you're reading it visually, of course, as well. And so you're getting all kind of multimodal learning there. um And then there's different tools that are amazing like um read and write and talk to text and text to talk when you're writing an essay. So there's just so many different um universal tools that students access now to kind of demonstrate their learning in different ways that certainly was not there when I was. Yeah.
00:24:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've in my school, the occasion we get the the kids to upload their presentations um online um as ah as a podcast. ah And the difference is it's just phenomenal when they because they're basically recording it at a home. um The difference is night and day. Night and day. you know, just so much more confident. And I actually, actually, I wondered if they'd actually been they put it did the presentations within that some kind of ah artificial intelligence, because it was bad good. I was blown away, but I actually had to get a, you know, ask another teacher whether, you know, wait a minute, this is just so good. It's almost unbelievable. She didn't know she the difference is huge when they
00:25:37
Speaker
record their presentations and upload them. Yeah. ah Yeah. AI, though, that's an interesting point. We have filters on to look for AI. Oh, do you? Yeah, because it's definitely a big issue. Yeah. And it will, I think, will only you know continue to grow as an issue. Yeah. yeah It's almost like and ah and like an arms race, I ah feel like. At this point, you get AI, and then you've got the kind of how how to spot AI and then the AI is going to try and outwit the how to spot the AI. I mean, it's not going away, right? No. We have to adapt and learn to spot it, as you said. I wonder how AI could benefit ADHD sometime. Could be interesting. Yeah, I'm sure it could be helpful. Yeah.
00:26:31
Speaker
Well, I mean, what it does for me is is it it it can do all the really boring things. So if I have to write and an email or something, or if I'm applying for a job and there's a cover letter that I have to write. i will I will let a AI do all of that. like yeah And will be 75% right and I have to kind of go in and tweak, but I'd much rather go in and tweak something rather than just sit there and write that whole goddamn boring thing. Yeah. yeah i Based on your advice, Martin, I had to draw a intake of breath. Drum roll could always be a drum roll.
00:27:15
Speaker
Yeah, ri I had to write an intro for my my professional website. And I did it on using artificial intelligence, because why in the end, because I'm not very good about writing about myself. And when I got that AI to write it, it was way better than I could have written it. Mm hmm. But that's not to say it was fake. It was just actually more genuine about what my skills were because, you know, I generally don't, you know, I'm not very good about talking, you know, you know, talking about myself. Yeah. Yeah. So this chatbot took a row to ask her, who is this guy? Oh, it's me. Right. So actually, while we're on that subject of testing and tests and exams,
00:28:10
Speaker
Like, can you like, can you like give people more time? Yeah. So there's, um, you know, actually in, I think one of your more recent podcasts, you were talking about accommodations in the workplace. And I was thinking about, um, in the United States, we have something called a section 504 plan, which is a federal, um, fancy, yeah very fancy, um, but it is a legal document. And basically what it is, is it protects individuals from discrimination based on their disability. So it's not just for students with ADHD, but have a 504 plan. Let's say you broke your arm and you broke your dominant right arm and you need a scribe to write for you, right? So you can have a 504 plan for that, but also could be for ADHD as well. And so what that does is it helps level the playing field for that student.
Support Systems and Intelligence Discussion
00:29:04
Speaker
And so for students with ADHD in the classroom, that could look um look like things like having checklists for long-term assignments, breaking tasks down into smaller parts, access to those fidget or sensory tools, like we mentioned before, um refocusing and redirecting students when needed, preferential seating, so maybe it's not necessarily sitting at the front of the class, but sitting away from distractions or sitting near the source of disruption, wherever that best place for that student is. okay um And then in terms of testing, Martin, like you asked, it could involve things like extended time, but I'm going to circle back to that in a minute. um Refocusing and redirecting kind of breaks as needed during testing.
00:29:48
Speaker
um What I often find, though, with kids with ADHD, especially if it's they have the impulsive type of ADHD, hyperactive type, is that they actually don't need extended time, but more need prompts to slow down because they'll rush through their tests and be done with the test in four minutes. And then they say, OK, here you go, professor. right Here's the test. And it's and it's really like, OK, it's great that you're done, but why don't you sit down for a few more minutes, check over your work, make sure that you You know, you've answered everything to the best of your ability before you see people pleasing, seeping in there as well. Yeah, yeah, it can be. So, you know, I think when it's tricky, you have to really look when you're talking about extended time, you have to really look at a student's processing speed. So if their processing speed is lower, that might be a reason to give them.
00:30:39
Speaker
extended time at a on a test. But if they are truly kind of average in terms of their processing speed, it's not necessarily the best thing to have more time. You have to kind of look at the data to see if they actually need that extended time. Because otherwise it's it's um more time to kind of be off task. all right yeah you know ah More time to lose your concentration. More time to possibly feel anxious about how you might do on that test. Oh, I'll blind me. I never thought about that. It's by that's not necessary. But, you know, every individual case is different, of course. I'd never thought of that. But yeah, it kind of makes sense. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. so that's That's a general education. You kind of like really head to the game in the States. USA. USA. Yeah, good thing you moved here, Martin. I know, right. A bit late though. A bit late. good done martin a think of
00:31:35
Speaker
Yeah, I just passed up on the whole sky. Anyway, yeah, no, but right. Cuz I think even, even wherever you are in the world, like the, they just seem to be like, you know, like, ah parents can influence the, the, the classroom, right, and how their kids are educated to an extent, or a little bit. I'm sure like, you know, so, you know, things like, you know, just being flexible with this or I like like the idea of flexible, more flexible heating and, and just access to fidget toys or even like, I like the idea of having a wobbly stool thing that you could just kind of slightly just kind of like do a little bit of a stimmy rock thing or, you know, or or a seat.
00:32:27
Speaker
I mean, that's all these little things. I can we not picture you as well, Martin. I can picture you. They're little, but they they make a big difference. yeah I know. yeah Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. pop I know. I know. Right. Well, I mean, like, is it, is it, is there any other support stuff? Sure. Before we move on, I've got a question for you to say. I also have Marty, but so especially you said, if you can you go back, back, back, imagine if you had those facilities when you were at middle school. Yeah, I often think about that. um yeah you know As I mentioned before, I don't even know if there was a school psychologist available.
00:33:23
Speaker
to me um in middle school. And if there was, I probably should have been in their office, you know, getting the help that I needed. Knocking on their door. But yeah, I mean, as I as I said, school was, you know, a place of learning, you sit in your assigned seat, you know, you focus for the full whatever 45 minutes of class, whatever it is. And that was my experience. And it Glad to say it's very different now. um You know, not to say that there aren't still struggles that our students still face, but at least it's not those struggles, right? Because this is something we can actually do to make a difference. Right. Yeah. You know, it's just worth pointing out again. I know we've said this before, but if you've had ADHD, you're late diagnosed and you've gone through the whole school system and you've struggled. Yeah. I think, you know, even what we're saying is that it doesn't mean that you're stupid.
00:34:18
Speaker
or you're not intelligent, it's just that very rigid structure you just didn't quite fit in and work with. right yeah yeah has It seems that school is very, you know, it doesn't really, how school fundamentally works doesn't really Yes. It seems to want to rate you on an, on an intelligence scale, right? He's a really bright kid. He's a middling kid. He's a really stupid kid. Right. And it just seems to like view kids in that. Really narrow. I personally grew up with a really, I was really passionate about how intellect was measured. Yeah. I really, really passionate about it. And I was constantly frustrated with how backward we are still in measuring
00:35:07
Speaker
intelligence still to this day. Yeah. And I have to give IQ tests as part of my job, um which, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Which is, you know, and then part of it is for the special education process. um But like I tell families, it's just one piece of information. It's really narrow, right? It's narrow. And in no way does it paint the whole picture of any child doesn't ever tell the full story. And your child has always more than a number, right? ah I've read recently that IQ tests have bears no relation to social intelligence whatsoever and has does not have any relationship to to creative intelligence either. Yeah. Yeah. So what IQ tests in schools generally are, are there a prediction of how well a student might do academically? It's a snapshot and a prediction. That's how it's essentially how we're using them. Um,
00:36:05
Speaker
And to your point, there's many other kind of intelligence, social intelligence, emotional intelligence, and and by no means is it a reflection of those types of intelligence. And it doesn't doesn't tell the whole story. So when we talk about supports that a student might need, we're really looking at so many different ah points of data and information because we want to really paint a holistic view of a child and make sure that we're capturing kind of all the areas. Right, I guess especially if the parents have a narrow idea is narrow idea as well um You know, hopeful hopefully that doesn't happen too often but you know, I imagine there's some parents are like oh know Much my kid, you know, what's what's wrong with him? You know, I think one of the hardest things for parents to hear um Is not necessarily that their IQ is low but that their average the term average is
00:37:00
Speaker
is a hard thing to hear like, but there was nothing, there's nothing above average. There's nothing exceptional right about my student. It was just average. And it's like once we, we said about our podcast thing, I'd rather people hated, hated our podcast or loved it. You know, rather than someone say they were indifferent to it. It was an average podcast. Indifferent to our podcast. Oh God, I've really hated it. yeah Yeah. And said so, so that, so that, so that we got a bit of social and in in engagement. Yeah. But yeah, no, like, yeah, it's that, that, that average thing, right. Because I'm almost thinking because one, you yeah think your kid's really special, or if they are a little bit, you know, struggling, then you kind of know that they're struggling. It's that average,
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah, that's really profound, actually. It really strikes a note. yeah mean Usually, you know, if it's a parent referral, so now we're kind of talking about special education, then there's in the States, there's a whole referral process for that. And we do um different kinds of evaluations, psychological evaluations, educational, and then depending on the referral concern, we'll do other testing, like if there's a speech concern or OT, we'll evaluate in those. Um, identified areas, but, um, you know, if it's a referral concern, most parents are expecting to see that something is a bit lower. Right. And so if it's not, and it's just average, that's a hard thing to hear too, because then it's like, well, well what's wrong? I know my my child's been struggling. Um, but you're telling me there's something really resonating with, with that. Yeah. It's making my buttocks clench. Oh.
00:38:56
Speaker
Man, average. Jesus. Who would have thought of? Yeah. but know but Average is a very good thing in my world. you I mean, why? It's that disparity, parity isn't it, between some sort of emotional response to average and actually average is like, oh, you know, it's okay. Paul, you asked why. And the reason is because average means if you've got an average IQ, it means youre your IQ is intact. You've got the ability to, you've got an average ability to, you know, kind of navigate different things. And that's a good thing. Potential. Yeah, you've got you've gra the potential, right? You don't have an innate um deficit in a certain area, which is a good thing.
00:39:47
Speaker
what if What if you're on a spectrum like this? So there's a guy that started, I'm going off on a tangent here, prepare yourselves. There's a guy, he studied octopuses. He researched octopuses for 20 years. And his theory is that octopuses, you cannot measure the intentions of an octopus. Because an octopus is so disengaged and disinterested in a human way of measuring intelligence that they don't even try.
00:40:19
Speaker
they They probably look at us and think, what are these like weird meat sacks wandering around on dry land? It's a good form of measuring success. I'm not going to even bother. I'm not going to even get out of bed to do that test. this this is religion of ah This is a theory. This guy has researched octopuses for 20 years. so they They're off the scale of intelligence to the extent that we we have no way of measuring it. Yeah. yeah i feel i I felt uncomfortable ordering ah octopus once and now I kind of like i kind of don't eat it anymore. yeah I feel pretty guilty about eating octopus. Yeah. not like um Yeah, no I hear you. I'm with you. Anyway, I'm a bit of a tangent there, sorry. That's a good tangent.
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Well, well done, Paul, for that tangent. Thank you, Paul. Thanks. I'll give it eight out of 10. I'll give it a B, B plus. Thank you very much. OK. But in terms of this average. OK. Yeah.
Classroom Support and Crisis Intervention
00:41:27
Speaker
You know, so in terms of this um this referral process, though, um students, you know, you know, I work with students who have an IEP or what's called an Individualized Education Program. And the main difference between that and the 504 program is you're really talking about direct services. So the 504 really only has the accommodations for the classroom and the testing accommodations, whereas an IEP are going to have direct services.
00:41:55
Speaker
So that might look like a form of having another special education teacher in the room or accessing a resource room or something like that. And then there also might be related services and that's where kind of I come in. um So it might be related services in the form of counseling or PT or speech or OT. And so I provide counseling services for students who do have IEPs. um And for for students with ADHD, it often involves things like behavior regulation and impulsivity, and often reading social cues in the classroom and hoping that my work then generalizes into, you know, a broad setting like a classroom so that they can be successful in their own way. Man, your phone is just like... He's a popular guy. I know. I think that's what that means. He's not mine. Oh, isn't it? No.
00:42:47
Speaker
Oh, Jesus, mine. It's yours. Good Lord. Martin's flying off the chain here. I mean, let me just put put that down on the floor. That's my, ah Eddie's gone to the to the dog of groomers and straight this podcast, I'm going to pick him up. So little little Eddie's getting his hair done. Is he? Yeah, he's getting his hair and nails did. Yeah. backta and crack
00:43:17
Speaker
Yes. That's a good crag. So, Eddie, you're not ah a lounger, you know, getting this. I'm horrified. um So I was interested in what you were saying to just now Seth because I've got a student a he's quite severely autistic and in in one of my classes and he has a permanent assistant that travels goes with him to all of the classes. I've always had this sense of like ah haveve other kids in the class that can
00:43:49
Speaker
well, actually, I could do something like that, you know, and it gets a lot of, it gets a lot of care and attention, you know, hell of a lot. And obviously, you know, no school could afford to do it. But in theory, a classroom could be full of assistance, right? If they're really taking care of everyone's particular needs. But they could benefit. Yeah. And, you know, we have different levels of special education support where I work. So sometimes it's just one paraprofessional, you know, who are assigned specifically to work with a group of students might be like five or six students. However, they're really there for all the students, all whatever 25 students in the classroom. So so they might pop around to all the different students and check in to make sure that they don't have any questions or, you know, provide support where needed.
00:44:42
Speaker
um And then, yeah, there are those one-to-one yeah professionals that are there for different reasons. I mean, certainly in Italian schools, they're pretty good at so ah helping students with more extreme ends of you know of complications, you know like in ah autism, or in other cases, self-harming. a child that has a system that with him or in all the classes. But you know, the the potential is, you know, it's easy to like spot and give attention to these extreme cases. But actually, there's probably a whole myriad of of of other students that could could do with that kind of help. Just extra help. Yeah.
00:45:32
Speaker
It's absolutely true. And just in terms of my own work, um the students, the general education students are the ones that I end up kind of doing the most crisis intervention crisis work with um because often they're not getting the level of support potentially that they need um to begin with. But yeah, I often find it's it's the general education students that I end up um kind of you know having having to drop everything and you know help them through a crisis or or whatever. What a great job you do.
00:46:09
Speaker
Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. i Amazing. It keeps me on my toes. There's never a dull moment. And every day no every day looks different. And I i always joke that you know I come in into work every day with a plan. Um, and my plan never goes as scheduled. I Must be hugely rewarding.
00:46:37
Speaker
It can be every now and then you get that student that you know, um has made a ton of progress or thanks you at the end of the year or many years later, you get that student who graduated high school and still remembers you, you know, after all those years. So yeah, it it has its moments. Absolutely. The kids are easy. It's adults that are hard.
Listener Engagement and Fun Proposals
00:47:00
Speaker
Right. So, all right, so we've talked about a whole bunch of things of which we'll put some links in the show notes, right, to the, I think you mentioned a couple of things, right? Yeah.
00:47:18
Speaker
maybe the 504 and IEP. Right. So if there's if there's any helpful links that that ah we will shove them from him, ah we'll shove them in the show notes so you can go and have a look at them. And then just so it's it's the last question that we always ask ah yeah every every guess. and now So now you are a a, yeah you know, as you're now in ADHDville, you get to kind of like pick, pick, you can set up a place all by yourself. I think we've had, ah we've had, yeah, we've had the broken spine bookshop with, we have a Maddie's like um fun fair amusement park design shop.
00:48:08
Speaker
We've had a, um, tacos and, uh, tequila bar. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. yeah yeah Well, um, what would you like to do in ADHDville? Does ADHDville have a record shop? No. No. No record shop. Really? Okay. So maybe it needs a record shop. Yeah. And, uh, I think I'll name it, uh, Looney Tunes. Nice. Like, like the cartoon, but Tunes spelled T U S for the Tunes. All right. Yeah. Um, and so what is is it, is it going to be like vinyl CDs? I think we'll do a bit of everything. All right. Definitely vinyl. We'll make a comeback as it's been. Um, you know, some CDs can be like the show and um in the film, high fidelity.
00:49:08
Speaker
Yeah, something like, you know, but even cooler, even to another level, you know. It's actually funny, I was trying to listen to a CD the other day and I realized I didn't have a way of playing it. Oh, really? You're just wandering around with the disc going. Wait, how am I going to play this? Oh, dear, that sucks. Yeah, it did. want wow You know what, I mean, like, i i I distinctly remember, obviously, you know, like, we're old enough to remember. Actually, you know, um all record shops, all record shops were just vinyl, right? That was it. There was nothing else. These were in there. There's like racks and racks you need. There will be now for better good order. is Is this your earliest memories of record shops or or do they start a bit later? No, no, i definitely. You know, they have the vinyl, they have the CDs. Right.
00:50:06
Speaker
and then even cassettes. Yeah, tapes. And then as though as they were all alphabetical, I would most of the bands I knew like I knew that there was quite a few in the in the S's in the in the S's in the T section, right? so So so that's where I go first in the S's and the T's because that's where most of the bands I knew were you were listening to the pistols yeah or something like that the the the and and then one day i went into hmv in uh croydon it was south london and they'd completely taken away all the vinyl and it was just like heartbreak oh yeah no i've walked in there
00:50:56
Speaker
Yay. And it was like, what, what, what hell is this? What, what's happened?
00:51:03
Speaker
ah So I'm, so I'm pleased that that the ADHD bill now has a record job. What an honor. Thank you. I'm glad to be a part of ADHD bill. Cool. And again, these mayors, you know, for anyone listening, they're okay. They're okay. yeah vote vote yeah Vote for us. they' They're above, they're above average. Okay. I'll take that. I'll take that.
00:51:30
Speaker
You'd do better, see me. Awesome. I might score a post. You could do better, see me. There you go. Right. Okay. Well, let's just hop back in the car and we'll just go to the... We can either go back to the town hall... Or to the post office. Or we can head to the post office. All right. Let's just pile in. in our B plus car.
00:52:00
Speaker
There we go. So yeah, so your feedback is really vital to us. So we will, we read all the comments and we might read out yours on our podcast on future podcasts. Do we have, do we have for some, some, some posts, Mr. West?
00:52:23
Speaker
Oh, God damn it. ah You know what? We're just reaching down to the post bag.
00:52:30
Speaker
i Yeah, I am reaching down to the post post bag. That's great. Don't even say that one. I know that it is... Where are we? I did have some. Christ, I'm not going to have to like cut cut this part really short. I know that ah ah one of our TikTok people, and Leo Connor, it's it's a big birthday coming up. so so so So she's a big fan of the pod. She watches every episode. It's a happy birthday to her. It was my birthday as well, two days ago. yeah was it Thank you.
00:53:21
Speaker
57. That is very nice. As in the Heinz 57 varieties.
00:53:29
Speaker
hu Oh wow, really? That is funny. um And and she she she did say so, ah ah for example, she said, after I just um said everyone that the podcast had dropped on Tuesday, yes yesterday for us, ah She did comment, say, sorry, I can't come out tonight. New ADHD Ville podcast has dropped. That's tonight's Tea Time Entertainment sorted. Cheers. mal that That's amazing. That's brilliant. Yeah. What was your couples?
00:54:06
Speaker
My cockles are red hot. That's how warm they are. I think it's a London thing you say. Warps of cockles. Very British. Cockles of your heart. yeah I don't know what the cockles, anatomically, which part, if I had to get a doctor to point to what the cockle of your heart was or where it was, where would it be? I don't know. Anywho. Any who. Cracking on. Cracking on. Cracking on. We are here. Yes. Every Tuesday. For all purveyors of fine podcast, please subscribe to the pod and rate us most educational. Especially this week. And right. And feel free to correspond at will in the comments. But wait, there is more if you wish to see our beautiful faces. You can sign these off.
00:55:05
Speaker
to the to the YouTubes and also um you could pick up a quill, an email or site, email us at adhdreal at gmail dot.com. um Let me just hit the outro button. and There we go. Yeah, so you can, so come and visit us on TikTok, YouTube, the the couple of friends that are on Facebook. But in the meantime, just be You must be flipping kind to yourself. And I beseech you, fellow A.B.A. deers, know thyself somehow to come hither and get the flesh.
00:55:45
Speaker
Thanks for coming in. Thank you. Cheers. Yeah, and thanks everyone being there. All right. There, says the mayor. That's that.