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TSP Ep 63 Part 1: Interview of Writer and Director Alia Azamat Ashkenazi
42 Plays4 years ago
In this first part of episode 63, Tom and Steve get to interview writer, director, and everything filmmaker, Alia Azamat Ashkenazi. We discuss her background, her life on set, and her newest film "Esther's Choice", which will have its east coast premiere at the Chelsea Film Festival and its west coast premiere at the LA Femme International Film Festival!
So come along with us as we learn a thing or two!
If interested in the festival premieres here are the links (west east respectively):
https://www.cya.live/event/5493?fbclid=IwAR3x6XPrjHZX3K6S9mShWZmIs8iswpPfTmETGGutv-uVpyDSNvock9tRSQE
https://filmfestplus.com/film/?film=145&festival=ch9s43qWkmb906cx&fbclid=IwAR0MWAYWyl_8PKv648KNYV6jY1RQUEDNCsqW6op54XdCyIIBwvLKnFJ1yj8
And if you want to follow or reach out to Alia here are her Instagram and her website:
https://www.instagram.com/aliaazamat/?hl=en
https://www.aliaazamat.com/
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Transcript
Introduction to Episode 63 with Alia Asimov Ashkenazi
00:00:00
Speaker
I think we all did at the same time. We're live. All right. Hey. Welcome everyone to Twin Shadows podcast. This is episode 63. Question mark. Yep. Very special episode in fact.
00:00:18
Speaker
Why is it so special, buddy? Ah, I'll tell you why it's so special, buddy. Because we have a very special guest, a poor soul who was suckered into doing this podcast with us. And that is Aaliyah Asimov Ashkenazi. And she's here to talk about our, to talk about everything she's done and her new film that will be coming out, Esther's Choice.
Impact of COVID-19 on Alia's Work
00:00:44
Speaker
Yay.
00:00:46
Speaker
So how are you doing, Alia? I'm great. I'm great. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for joining us. I'm really excited about this thing. Yeah, thank you. We're excited to have you. I'll do a quick cheers. No, I'm drinking scotch. Stephen, what do you got? I got tea, scotch, and water. I have water. All right, there you go. Hey, that's smart. See, that's why we have her on. She's a smart one here.
00:01:12
Speaker
Yeah, just, uh, nothing, nothing, uh, super special, just water. So how's everybody doing? I'll answer our guests. How's your week been? It's only Monday at this moment, but it's been crazy. You cannot even imagine like with, with work with, uh, new COVID regulations and stuff. Uh,
00:01:33
Speaker
Going back to set is kind of hectic and just the promo for the film, you know? Like I have to do everything by myself. Just kind of frustrating, but also having control is good too. Yeah. So it's been crazy. So then how hectic is it right now for you? Like, do you ever get a chance to just sit down and relax?
00:01:54
Speaker
Not right now. Not lately.
Productivity During Quarantine
00:01:57
Speaker
You know, I've been, I've been in quarantine for, for however long, like six months, I guess. But since March, from March to, I would say June, I was not working and sitting at home. There's been a lot of writing and stuff.
00:02:14
Speaker
But in July, it started picking up, you know, a lot of commercials, a lot of indie films are trying to start shooting somewhere in October. So I've been offered a couple and I said no to all. You never know what's going to happen. It all comes from productions and producers and UPMs doing a good job and sometimes they do not.
00:02:39
Speaker
Yeah. And that's, and I mean, it's a scary time right now for everybody. How, so has the, has COVID been affecting your writing at all? Like, have you, like, I know for me, the stress almost makes it hard to write when I'm like, we're feeling really depressed or awful as a, as that has that for you, same thing.
00:02:57
Speaker
Well, I haven't been feeling depressed at all or isolated or anything.
Co-Writing a Feature Film
00:03:03
Speaker
I actually felt at home this whole time because I thrive in silence and I need the time by myself just letting the mind wander.
00:03:16
Speaker
and just doing nothing or reading a book or walking. Walking was a little limited in quarantine, but just being by myself and processing whatever hectic lifestyle I had before on sets, because I've been shooting up until the moment when it was like
00:03:37
Speaker
very unsafe to go on set. So I kind of took it as a gift this whole time. And it's not like I had enormous inspiration during those times to write something, but I definitely had enough time to sit and work through it. So I was very productive, I would say, during the time of quarantine.
00:04:03
Speaker
Oh, that's good. Because I mean, I mean, I've been writing. So that's good. I finished a feature this year. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, I normally start scripts. I never finish them. So I was like, I'm gonna start finishing scripts. So so you managed to finish anything during this time.
Collaboration with a Russian Dissident
00:04:23
Speaker
Well, I actually started thinking about this short film that I might do that was kind of inspired by the whole lockdown thing. The thing is that I never sit down and write Baden in my final draft. What I usually do is I outline and think about the themes and do a lot of character development.
00:04:49
Speaker
and have all this little documents and notes and index cards on my board before I actually start writing. Because that's my key to not being lost in front of a white page. Because that's scary. So I definitely, what I did is I finished the outlining of that short film, felt really good about it, and moved on to another thing. And it happened so that right before the lockdown, I re-optioned a feature
00:05:19
Speaker
film that I've been co-writing for quite some time now. And it's just like we're having an agent and EP on your head being like, let's polish it, let's finish it, you know, we have time. So it's been a lot of working with my co-writer who was able to come into my summer house and we kind of like left ourselves for a couple of days, just brainstorming the new draft. So we definitely finished that, sent it to a couple of
00:05:49
Speaker
screenwriting festivals just to see how it goes. And then so far it just got into a semi-sulfa screen craft competition or something like that. We send it to a bunch. So we're kind of waiting for results now. Oh, okay. Awesome. I hope guests have luck to that. Thank you. So you say how long, how long have you been working on that story?
00:06:12
Speaker
Well, we came up with an idea sitting in a Russian bath house somewhere in 2015 or 16, I think.
Alia's Journey from Moscow to New York
00:06:23
Speaker
And from that point on, we would meet maybe like once a month, once in two months, and just talk about the story. I would sit down and write a beat sheet and sequences and maybe act structure, a little bit of character development. And it happened so that my co-writer is not a screenwriter by occupation. He's just a very creative person.
00:06:53
Speaker
and kind of known in that world, in the Russian world as a dissident and a political activist. So definitely the whole script technically was written by me based on our conversations. Oh, that's awesome. Interesting. And I like this kind of a co-writing experience.
00:07:16
Speaker
because you basically just write it by yourself and the script has a particular voice, whereas when you co-write with a writer who has access to final draft and also can type and write, sometimes the script comes off a little bit uneven.
00:07:32
Speaker
And definitely having one voice, one style, even just the way you put the action language and dialogues and formatting and the way you kind of express yourself as a writer and the script just comes off and it's very clear and clean. So that part I really like just like talking creatively and brainstorming, but only having one writer put it on the page is kind of, I think, a better way to write, to co-write.
00:08:03
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Well, you spoke of Russian dissidents and then I hear a siren. Are you okay? Yeah. Yeah. No, I feel like back in Moscow, PTSD. Yeah. So they come in for us. Should we get into your background a bit? Do you want to tell us like, so where did you grew up in Russia? I grew up in Moscow. Yes. I was born in Uzbekistan in Tashkent. And when I was 10, 11 years old, I moved to
00:08:33
Speaker
to Moscow to live with my grandma and went to high school there and started working and kind of like started in Moscow, kind of intelligentsia circle, leaving in downtown and being exposed to like theater crowd, journalist crowd. And so I grew up kind of fast because of that, because I was surrounded by adults all the time, not having siblings and being the only child, the princess.
00:09:01
Speaker
And then I finished high school and I moved to New York when I was 18 years old. I got a scholarship at the film school and that was it. I just said goodbye to Mother Russia and never looked back. Okay. So how do you like it over here? Is it all you ever dreamed of?
Passion for Storytelling and Screenwriting
00:09:23
Speaker
Yes. Yes. I always felt like somewhere over there in the West that might be my place. And the moment I landed at JFK in the middle of a blizzard in 2014, that was it. That was home. And that's how I feel. I feel very comfortable and I feel at home. So you've been in New York the entire time? Yes. Yeah. So you kind of adopted that as your city?
00:09:49
Speaker
I would say so. Yeah. It's also a big city. Moscow is a big city and even Tashkent is a big city. So there's definitely in law, like cultural shock when it comes to like giving them a mega police, but the crowd and the people are definitely my people. And I, uh, feel like I belong here. You know, I can be who I want to be and not fake anything, you know? Yeah, that's awesome. Authenticity is something we always push on.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. So being Americans in our perspective of Russia, it's a very pointed perspective we have. Is that a thing? I don't know if I'm making sense. But how accurate is our perspective of Russia?
00:10:37
Speaker
Well, what is your perspective? You tell me what are you thinking. Well, you know, the general American narrative of communism is bad. You know, they're going to come over here and take down capitalism and it's dangerous over there. And, you know, there's always scheming of some sort, a lot of corruption.
00:10:58
Speaker
Well, I agree with the scheming, dangerous and corruption 100%. Oh, okay. That is very true. I'm not sure the communists are coming for you guys. I think they have enough problems on their own. They do have an ambition to rule the world, but who doesn't? You guys do as well. Any big country with imperialistic kind of ambitions would be in the same boat, I would say.
00:11:28
Speaker
What can I say about Russia? It's a dark place and not a good place for girls, creativity, or any kind of thing that doesn't align with the regime.
00:11:45
Speaker
I faced it myself as a journalist and then as a poet. I was pretty active during the protests that were happening in 2011, 2012. A lot of people went to jail to that. And then opposition figure Alexei Navalny was nearly killed very recently,
Film School Experiences and Growth
00:12:09
Speaker
actually.
00:12:11
Speaker
who was the one who was leading the process at that time when I was active. So it's definitely not a safe place, I would say, especially if you express or even have an opinion that differs from the propaganda opinion. Yeah. Right. So with that being said, how did you switch into film and move to the US?
00:12:34
Speaker
Well, that was the only thing I could do to make money but continue telling stories. That was always my goal, is to be a storyteller in my journalism, in interviews I did, whatever articles I wrote, or in even poetry. It was never super lyrical. There was always the beginning, middle, and end to every poem.
00:13:01
Speaker
And I think that contributed to some of the success of it is just like people would be like, so what happens? You know, they just want to listen. So when I moved to U.S., screenwriting was the only thing I could think of that would allow me to tell stories, but also make money. It appeared technical enough
00:13:24
Speaker
For me, at that point in life, with limited English, I would say I learned here when I moved, I could barely speak. I would say I would understand people, but people would not understand me. And the script is a technical document, so it's easy enough to master it, right? It's not like you're writing a novel and you have to have a very sophisticated language or the use of it.
00:13:52
Speaker
So that was just a practical decision. Okay. Do you find the same kind of fulfillment from writing screenplays as you would from writing prose or poetry? Because like you said, it is very technical. So do you get that same kind of satisfaction? Absolutely. Maybe even more. Oh, why is that?
00:14:16
Speaker
Because I was never like, you know, that's why I was a poet, because there's, it's not like that in English word, like whatever you guys have in a spoken word is complete trash. But in Russia, in Russian speaking countries, poetry is a big deal.
00:14:34
Speaker
And the poets are taken seriously. That's how I could have fans and concerts and a tour and books and stuff. Because I was taken seriously and it wasn't just like, you know, pouring my heart out on the page. There's a certain structure and certain written to your poems. It's not just what I think is poetic or metaphorical that I can just say out loud, right? There's certain rules
00:15:01
Speaker
to it and my poetry was always very rhythmical and that's why I had concerts and not just books but published poems that my concerts were much more popular or videos because I would go on stage and read it out loud and it would be like almost like I would me compare it to rap
00:15:26
Speaker
or music here, right? In a way that you go and perform and there's rhyme and the written to every piece. So that kind of applying of the rules of technicality was really familiar to me when I started writing scripts.
00:15:42
Speaker
And with the prose, I know it was a fan of a prose because again, you have to have a specific voice and in order to maintain that voice, you have to write a lot and kind of find yourself whatever you're going to say. There's a lot of
00:16:00
Speaker
like mastery of language, which I'm not opposed to, but that's not something that interests me as a form. What interests me is a story and then the impact of that story. So in that way, the screenplay is actually super liberating to my ambition of just telling someone something and seeing how they react.
00:16:25
Speaker
So I definitely like the screenplay structure and I'm in love with everything that is there format wise. I think it's really helpful in the pacing and the moment you understand how to actually put the action language and how to put the dialogue and the transitions.
00:16:46
Speaker
The beats and how many sentences you should have in the paragraph and stuff. It's a beautiful document too. It is very technical, but it's beautiful. You can definitely hear the voice of a writer if they actually know what they're doing from just reading the script. Absolutely. I agree 100%. Man, I feel like I could get into so much stuff, but I want to bring it back to film school a little bit.
00:17:09
Speaker
So you said you came over when you're 18 to go to film school.
Filmmaking Knowledge and Visas
00:17:13
Speaker
What was that like? And do you think it prepared you for filmmaking at all? Or was it worth it?
00:17:17
Speaker
It was definitely worth it in the sense that I got the scholarship. It got me a visa that actually helped me get OPT, which is optional practice, whatever they're trying to in the current administration castle for the kids after school to have a one year to work and actually make money legally. So it was definitely worth it in that sense.
00:17:45
Speaker
Also, for me personally, what Film School did for me is that it broke me. Basically, I came in as this... Like financially? No, it's mentally and emotionally and almost physically. What it did is that, when I came here, I was something, right? Back in Moscow, I already had some success. What it showed me is that I am nothing.
00:18:14
Speaker
And I have no name, no experience, and basically nothing behind my back in this new country with this new industry.
00:18:24
Speaker
It was super liberating, actually, because I got to totally forget who I was before for 18 years of my life and build myself a new. It was great. I'm really grateful for fifth school to doing that to me because when you get notes and feedback from your teachers and stuff, you realize that you know nothing, which means you should learn stuff.
00:18:52
Speaker
Yeah, so but do you think that there's also some power in the in that ignorance of not knowing? I just kind of jump in. I don't think there's any power in the ignorance. Oh, well, I try to always be ignorant, so.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yeah. Cause that's something that we, it's something we discuss a lot. Cause it's like, maybe you can be overly influenced by learning how things can be done. As opposed to just trying to figure out things for yourself. Yeah. I hear that. I hear that.
00:19:24
Speaker
Yeah. I don't necessarily agree with that. But tell me more, why would you think that it's bad? Well, the way I see it is, at least for myself, and this mainly goes more into writing than it does filmmaking. But certainly I don't want to know a formula because if I know the formula, I'm going to start using it and applying it. I kind of want it, since it is an art form and it is just about creation, I kind of want to
00:19:50
Speaker
explore it on my own, you know, take from what I've seen and what works and what doesn't, and then just apply my own spin to it and discover what my art is, who I am, my relation to my art. Like all of that's an internal journey. And I feel like if you get to formulaic within your approach, you run the serious risk of losing yourself.
00:20:18
Speaker
Okay. I see. I see. Yeah. That is a popular opinion, uh, amongst, uh, beginning filmmakers. You just crushed him shot you dead. She killed you after you died. Oh God. I'm a Westerner. You got it. I'm an American. You got to go easy.
00:20:43
Speaker
We got to be we got to be caught. I just heard your feelings. Don't hurt my feelings. I can't. OK, so then to bring it back, I guess, despite the whole, you know, Stephen's dead now. So let me ask a question. When we first met over Zoom, we asked about, you know, different filmmaking paths. And you mentioned that there were three.
00:21:07
Speaker
What do you think? What are those three that you see as the standard filmmaker path?
Filmmaking Paths and Real-World Exposure
00:21:12
Speaker
And then what do you think is the most optimal perfect filmmaking path?
00:21:17
Speaker
Well, I would say, um, I'm not sure there's three, but there's two for sure. There's one when you go to film school, get your bachelor's degree, go to Tisch, Columbia, UCLA, blah, blah, blah. Watch hundreds of films and get very academical about it. Get on those lists and under a radar of Spike Lee or whoever right at the university. And that's how you start your career.
00:21:43
Speaker
So whoever you're thinking of being, that's the only thing that you are going to be doing. Like I see it a lot with filmmakers that are graduated and the only thing they do on set is direct. And which is unfortunate because they only see themselves. They don't see anyone else in action, so they don't know their competition, which is ignorant.
00:22:05
Speaker
And the other path is being a film buff, loving of cinema and going to set and being a PA or whoever starting position, trying to just work and actually make a living in the industry.
00:22:25
Speaker
So it's like an exposure path. It's not an academic path, it's an exposure path when you're trying to actually get into the room with those people who are much more experienced than you are just making money or making a living. Even being a PA on the union show for six months, you can survive on those money.
00:22:45
Speaker
So, and there's another one when you're like a protection assistant trying to get through, through the ranks. And for me, the optional path, which I kind of took and now look where I am now is studying hard and applying the skills right away. Okay.
00:23:12
Speaker
And what I mean by that is that you do not necessarily need to go to film school. I'm looking at YouTube right now and all those podcasts right now. There is an enormous amount of information and sometimes it is a very helpful information out there for free.
00:23:30
Speaker
And you can just watch those YouTube essays or interviews with other filmmakers and learn from that. It's not necessarily like a film school way when you actually have a class and you have agenda and homework and stuff to bring on and talk and grow inside your circle mentored by your teacher. Of course not. But still, there's some learning and theory involved in that, right?
00:23:57
Speaker
I'm a big proponent of getting on set as fast as you can in a position that will bring you money and exposure to those people you strive to be like, right? So for me, it was never IPA because.
00:24:12
Speaker
I did a couple of days on the union show. I said never again. I have enormous respect for all the PA nation. I think they're doing a great job and they're underappreciated, extremely underappreciated.
00:24:27
Speaker
But that's not for me. I don't want to be skilled at whatever they're supposed to do on set, right? Yeah. So I would say for... All right, ladies and gentlemen. So there you go. Listen to Twin Shadows podcast. We'll teach you how to make films. Well, what I want to say is at least from like Steven and I perspective, I can speak for you, buddy.
00:24:47
Speaker
It's like we were like cameras are cheap. Let's just buy one and make stuff and that's kind of Where we've been like I've never been on a professional set but like we sure we've made tons of mistakes probably too many mistakes but I mean like we have a feature that's in post and
00:25:04
Speaker
And it's just like, I hearing, hearing you talk about, it's just like, I feel like I have no idea even how to even approach those paths for myself. Cause to me, it was just like the only path was buy a camera, bake some actors to come and work for us. And we paid them, you know, lunch and gas money. And that's, that's how we got our actors. And it was doing ourself, right? Yeah. So how do you, so what do you think about
00:25:30
Speaker
just jumping into it. Like, is there I don't know because I want to talk. We're going to talk about your film. Esther, are we essentially how dumb are we for our approach?
00:25:44
Speaker
Well, I guess this is a third approach, actually. I completely forgot about the old iPhone filmmakers and YouTube filmmakers out there right now who would just grab the camera and shoot stuff. I guess some of the influential filmmakers started saying that in their interviews lately. It's like, no, don't go to film school. If you have money, just pick up a camera and go shoot, right? Go make stuff. Go do shit, right? Yeah, because that was always more appealing.
00:26:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's what influenced this big wave of make-through filmmakers or DIY filmmakers or whatever you want to call it. I applaud that you have to have a lot of balls to have no idea what you're doing, but actually do that. We have four balls between the two of us. And they're not a lot. No, especially when it's cold, they're small, but, you know, they get the job done, maybe. I don't know. Maybe. Yeah, is Jerry still out?
00:26:40
Speaker
But do you guys still do research? Of course. We're constantly learning and trying to make our balls thicker. I mean, however we can. We
On-Set Experience and Learning
00:26:51
Speaker
massage our balls a lot. I don't know how big they're getting, but it feels nice. But really, I mean, part of the reason why we have you on this is part of our research and learning is talking to you. So part of the podcast is learning alongside our audience.
00:27:08
Speaker
Well, I'd love to be more helpful. I mean, rather than just bashing on your methods. No, no, no. But that's good to hear. Like you said, hearing a teacher like for you, you know, going from where you had all this renown to film school and then you were getting criticism. We also need that.
00:27:27
Speaker
And our approach to see how foolish we are and maybe to be more realistic. And, you know, I, I imagine one of the best aspects of being on set is literally the networking you can create, right? And the connections you can form from that.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yes, that's true for sure. For me as a filmmaker and a person who is launching into a full-time directing career at the moment, the biggest advantage of being on set is watching my rivals.
00:27:58
Speaker
Okay if you want to see this on your right no I'm not watching but watching the competition not trials but the competition because you're you you do not exist in a bubble you especially in film
00:28:15
Speaker
uh you exist in a big community and everyone's talking and there's a lot of media involved and there's a lot of trends and opinions and and there's critics and uh festivals and stuff you know you gotta know who's hot and why they're hot how does that work
00:28:32
Speaker
what's behind all that success. And that's how you actually have access to the backstage of that, of the creation of the filmmakers, just by being on set with them and seeing what they do and how they receive. So the position of a script supervisor is so close to the director that you actually learn a lot. You influence a lot of the filmmaking aspects. You definitely get very close with the DP. And sometimes I end up holding
00:29:02
Speaker
a beginning filmmaker hand, just trying to let them know that this is how it should be, this is how they should do stuff, not to completely screw themselves in the edit. So there's definitely a lot of learning
00:29:18
Speaker
of the field. I wish we had you on set. I wish we had you on set. That would have been awesome. On the next one. Yes. On the next one.
Role and Approach of a Script Supervisor
00:29:30
Speaker
Yes, we're bringing you out no matter what. For everyone out there, what exactly is it that you do on set and then what is that job? What is it until? The script supervisor? Yeah.
00:29:43
Speaker
Oh, the script supervisor, if you say, if you say, um, fast is, um, is the only person who is representing post-production on set is the only person who is responsible and has a voice for the editor. So I have to make sure as a, as a person, as a one person department, my own boss to make sure that the film is going to cut eventually.
00:30:09
Speaker
And the continuity of the story and the filmmaker's vision is in fact. Whenever we set up a new shot, whenever we move to a new location, whenever we move to a new scene, whenever the actor is making a decision of picking up a prop with the right or left hand, you always have to be there to advise, basically.
00:30:32
Speaker
And sometimes it leads to a lot of conflict on set because the DP wants to break up on 80 year old and the director is not knowledgeable about that. So they cannot say, and the scripts advisor is really annoyed by that, which I always oppose. I think that.
00:30:53
Speaker
that the rules exist and you have to apply them with moderation. But that's my own approach. That's why I actually started directing because some of the producers I worked with just told me that I'm not a scriptee, I'm a second filmmaker on set and I should direct.
00:31:10
Speaker
oh but but the the scripts of my position get a lot of hot kind of like a controversial opinions from different group positions because uh it's always a personality who is doing the scripts version on set it's usually an older woman in the glasses who is uh who might be very annoying
00:31:32
Speaker
and very strict with their rules. Actors might hate them because they will flop the line and the scripty will fly in with a note and say, you didn't say it right. And it completely takes the actor out of their moment, which I never do. But it's like a very controversial position, I would say, especially when you were doing it for a long time, having a good script supervisor is such a key. Because if they are on your side and if they are working together,
00:31:59
Speaker
With you, your film becomes much better on set and you don't need to fix it in post. So it's basically supervising a lot of other departments to make sure that it's going to cut and it's going to work. What are the visions and transitions they had that they're going to be achieved in the editing?
00:32:18
Speaker
Yeah, that's really important. I'm editing my short film and I'm having to make a lot of continuity sacrifices just for the flow of the movement and also just, I don't know, keeping a better pace of the film. And it's like, yeah, I really wish I had that script supervisor.
00:32:39
Speaker
to know like, oh, the actor used their right hand. So in this other shot, they need to be using that hand. And of course, when that doesn't line up, it feels really rough in the edit.
00:32:54
Speaker
It does. It does. Yes. I mean, it's never easy or it's never pleasant to bring it up on set when, you know, everyone's trying to do their best job, especially with actors. It could be very sensitive, especially when the actors are known or experienced and stuff. But sometimes you've got to do that. But sometimes you have to shut up.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, because you know in the more experience you have a script supervisor or especially if you have some post experience and I've sat down with my editor for two months in a dark room editing a documentary. So I really know what goes into what goes on in the post room. So I apply whatever I know there on set and know that this thing is not as important. I would not bring up a character saying the wrong line because it doesn't matter.
00:33:44
Speaker
But when it does and when it can take the audience out of the scene, I would definitely bring it up and make sure that we can fix it and work with it and prevent it on set. Oh, go ahead. So when you say knowing when to shut up, is that just something you kind of learn? Because what do you call yourself? A scripty, right? Yeah. And that is like, I will get a lot of
00:34:08
Speaker
but looks and comments from my fellow script supervisors for this I think because there's like this school of thought that scripty is derogatory. You should not call yourself a scripty and when someone calls you a scripty, you should scold them. I never do that. I don't care how I'm called as long as I'm called. Thank you for telling me that because I would have called every script supervisor a scripty after that. No, you should call them script or script supervisor. Okay.
00:34:37
Speaker
Just to be safe. That would be if we had one. Interesting. So then knowing when to shut up is basically just, that's just something that comes with experience or how do you know when you can allow that continuity issue within, within thinking of the post.
00:34:56
Speaker
Like, how do you know that? I would say you get confident in your decision to shut up only with experience, but I teach a lot of script supervisors. I train usually younger girls in my method, which is like, you can have many methods with how to take notes for their tutorial and how to approach the lining of the script and stuff. There's a lot of technicalities in it.
00:35:21
Speaker
And whenever I have a chance to tell them to be kind and sensible, I do. So why do you say that? Because you can read all of the rules and all of the books and scripts of your vision, take many classes and be exposed to older scripts of your supervisors who tell you like, this is how it should be. But I always apply common sense. You know, maybe it's just not worth a fight at the moment. You know, maybe there is another shot.
00:35:51
Speaker
that the director actually loved much, much more. And whatever shot the mistake happened in is never going to be used. And it's a position of power. And you are in that power to make those decisions and make those goals and kind of like think for yourself. Of course, you should bring it up when it's like not your decision. But, you know, sometimes you step out and be like, you know,
00:36:17
Speaker
This is OK. So to bring it back to maybe a gender question, why do you think it sounded like the majority are female? Why do you think that? Why do you think that is or is that just commonplace? Because you even mentioned that like the older script supervisors are, you know, elderly women with glasses or whatever. So why do you think that's a what is that an issue or is that just something?
00:36:44
Speaker
That's a Hollywood thing. The position was called the script girl for a reason 50 years ago, just because women were considered the best secretaries. And the
Gender Dynamics in Script Supervision
00:36:58
Speaker
position was looked at as a person who takes notes, who basically looks down to the script all the time and takes notes and jolts down everything they see around them and being angry. And then when
00:37:11
Speaker
Something comes up at the dailies and they were right. It's a little triumph for them. And we usually no one believes them and everyone kind of like dismisses them because they represent this like post world. No one wants to care about on set. So it's just, uh, it was always a position for women because they were hired more for this kind of job because they were perceived as a better note takers.
00:37:38
Speaker
And then it kind of evolved into men stepping into the position and some of the biggest script supervisors are actually male or identify as male, as far as I know. And I do not think it's an issue.
00:37:58
Speaker
whoever wants to work in the field, they should. One of my go-to subs is a male script supervisor, aspiring director as well. You know, whatever. I mean, if you're good at your job, it doesn't matter who you are or what gender were you born with.
00:38:18
Speaker
You know what I mean? It's just more, more women want to, want to do this kind of job. And also like more women are still doing this job because, you know, the cutoff, the age cutoff is really high. There's like 60, 70 year old women are still working in the field. Oh, really? Yeah.
00:38:38
Speaker
I would imagine it's because women are more meticulous than men. We're just dumb grunts, you know what I'm saying? We don't cross for teasing. Probably. Or have better attention to detail. Women are the smarter of those sexes, you know? It's kind of true. Stephen, go ahead. What other positions have you done on set, like even relating all the way back to film school? Nothing. It's always just been scripty.
00:39:07
Speaker
Oh, it's just been scripty. I've done two days on the union show as a PA. And that was it as a favor to the KPA who just like was running out of people. And I came on and I was like, I said, thank you. Given my walkie talkie and walked away. Well, I mean, are you also considering director and do you consider writer as an onsite job? Well, let's get into that next, right? With the film.
00:39:30
Speaker
Well, I want to maybe like give a chance for a possible break because I know once we start getting into Esther's choice, this could go even longer. And then we got to get into writing still and lots of other questions that I have. So did you guys want to keep you all night? Oh, I will. I'm down. I'm down.
00:39:47
Speaker
Don't don't give us an opportunity. We will sound really quiet though. You guys I hope I'm making sense. Oh, you're making lots of sense What I don't don't don't sound like I'm full of myself because I can definitely get into the very Dramatic kind of speaking way of like a Russian poet, you know We are loving it. I want to speak for Steven. We are loving it. We're having a blast
00:40:11
Speaker
But I just want to, I just want to warn you because like I can literally, I don't stop. I am like a, I am like a machine. I keep going. So if you need, if you want to take a break, because I do want to start getting into Esther's choice and, uh, and just take a quick break, Mike, talk to you soon. I'll talk to myself freezer. Hope everyone's doing good. This episode is awesome. Alia is amazing. I hope everyone is enjoying.
00:40:38
Speaker
Hope she left, because if not, I'll sound really awkward. Just complimenting myself or her while she's not here. But yeah, been been great. Hope everyone is enjoying this little mid episode break. Man, it is just everything is going awesome. I'm learning a lot. I'm having a really good time. And we there's so much more to come, you guys. So just keep it.
Reflection and Excitement for Esther's Choice
00:41:02
Speaker
Keep it here. We're going to have a good time. You know, we're just having fun, genuine, awesome.
00:41:08
Speaker
stuff, I guess. Yeah, man. So what do you guys think? Are you guys excited to hear about Esther's choice? I know I am. Watch the teaser like three or four times now. Looks great. Fantastic. I'm drinking some Valentine's. It's finest scotch whiskey.
00:41:26
Speaker
And I'm just kicking back. Filmmaking is not easy. It may, you know, on paper, it kind of seems easy, right? It's right. Your story, you shoot it, you edit it, you put it out, right? Hell no, it ain't that easy. It's way harder than that. So cheers to all the lovely filmmakers out there. And I hope you guys are enjoying the Twin Shadows podcast. Remember, we release every Friday. And I know
00:41:54
Speaker
I would love to have Aliyah back. So if you guys would like to have Aliyah back for more questions or comments or anything like that, just, you know, let us know. And we will definitely try and have her back as a guest. It's, you know, it's been awesome, man. Those dogs, you know, it's really making me, every time we have a guest like Aliyah, it's just like, fuck man. We makes you want to get your shit together, right? No, it makes me want to, it makes me think like,
00:42:23
Speaker
We can't just, you can't just ask your friends to do jobs. Oh, but yeah, no, you need someone who wants to be in the industry doing that job. Yeah. Cause I, cause then they're going to put in the extra effort to do it because the best way you know what everyone out there, if you can get that, that's who you want first. Yeah. Because then your friends, you know.
00:42:46
Speaker
They're going to do the best they can. Yeah, which is not good enough. How did it say it? I mean, totally be wrong. I'm forever grateful. I will never not be grateful for all the work that everyone has put in on our projects. Well, it's sounding like you are a little bit right now. It's like, oh, hey, welcome back. Hey.
00:43:07
Speaker
Welcome back. Welcome back. Welcome back. We're back. Thank you. What were you talking about? We were talking about the mistake that we made. We were just talking about you and everything. We were talking about you as well, but we were also talking about how when we made the choice to start our feature, we asked all our friends to cover the jobs.
00:43:29
Speaker
And it's like they had no idea what they were doing. And we just kind of expected them to figure it out. And it was like hearing you talk. It's like, oh, they actually didn't know what they were doing. And maybe that is nice to like have someone that knows what they're doing. Of course. Yeah, 100 percent. It's good. But also like tell me a little bit about your process, because I'm really curious. I was never exposed to filmmakers like this.
00:43:56
Speaker
That's because we don't. Uneducated, unconnected. We don't exist. We're at the bottom of the barrel. Oh, stop it. But the thing is that when you are going on this journey of making a feature film, which is kudos to you guys, but
00:44:14
Speaker
Do you read books? Do you watch YouTube? How do you even find out what electric does? Or how do you know what are the duties of the second AC? Or how do you even know what the script supervisor does? Do you read books? Well, I'll say one, we can't read. Two, the truth is,
00:44:40
Speaker
We rely on what we call YouTube university, which is what's ever on the internet learning. But then three is the fact that we don't necessarily know what every job is supposed to do. And we kind of learn it as we go along. So like when I'm asking you, what does a script supervisor do on set? It's honestly, because I also am not a hundred percent sure what that entails.
00:45:02
Speaker
Yeah, like for from our perspective. So this is kind of like I can do a quick one rundown for what happened. So Stephen and I were like, look, let's buy a red and make a movie. So we bought a red and we wrote a script together and we. Wow. We wrote it and rewrote and rewrote it. Stephen has a big background in photography and I've been writing and making shorts since I was like a little kid. So it was like we can just slap something together and try to be as best as we can.
00:45:28
Speaker
So we, you know, we wrote and wrote and wrote and we redrafted and figured it out and asked all of our friends to pretty much participate on it and over.
00:45:39
Speaker
20 weekends every weekend we shot and then we you know then we've been slowly putting everything back together and so like we learn I mean I know I watch tons of videos listen to lots of interviews I mean like a lot of my big inspirations I love Kevin Smith Tarantino
00:45:59
Speaker
Mm-hmm, you know like a lot like Darren Aronofsky is one of my favorite like when you said that I was like, yes He's like I love Aronofsky like no Kubrick is huge and influence But mm-hmm and it's like, okay, we can do this. So we just love movies. Let's just give it a try Like I love movies. I love writing. I have like a hundred almost like half-written scripts In different varying things and it's just like let's just try it. Let's just do it. So That's amazing. I mean
00:46:27
Speaker
It takes so much courage. Yes, it was terrifying and it's still terrifying to this day because Post has been this nightmare that we never envisioned that it was. It was like pre-production was super hard.
00:46:43
Speaker
shooting was like even harder than that and then it's like post it's like how is this how you get harder than the principal photography like what the hell like because we're like constantly throwing edits together and it's like okay this works and this doesn't work and then like things are taking really long and it's like people are asking for for results and stuff like that it's like dude we both work full-time jobs
00:47:05
Speaker
I have a kid like we try to do it as best we can. It's like we're I mean, but it's like it's hard. And then we started this podcast to really like recenter ourselves and learn more because honestly, I love filmmaking. I love writing. I love the like you said, the collaboration of it is like every time you're on set or making a movie, it feels like you're at summer camp.
00:47:26
Speaker
Like you're with these people and you're like how you're enduring this this horrible thing. It's like tiring and exhausting and like it's super hard to get your shots and everyone's bitching at you for something. And then it's like at the end of the day, you're like, wow, that was great. It's so weird. It's like psychologically so weird. Yeah. So, yeah, Stephen, do you have anything to say? No, I've been talking a lot so.
00:47:47
Speaker
No, no, no, you pretty much hit it on the head. You sounded perfect there, buddy. You did good. So bringing it up, talking about us, let's talk about you some more, Leah and Esther's choice. When did you get the idea that you're going to start directing and you're going to write and direct?
00:48:04
Speaker
Well,
Directing Esther's Choice and Casting Process
00:48:05
Speaker
I was always writing straight out of film school and during film school, of course. And I always thought that I am going to be a screenwriter. You know, I had some classmates who were kind of like writer-director.
00:48:21
Speaker
ambitious already, even in school. And I always thought that I'm just going to write scripts and sell them. And some amazing directors would have a vision, be inspired by it. And some actors will say my lines, you know. But as I got out of film school and was on OPT and could work,
00:48:43
Speaker
A producer friend of mine just needed a script supervisor on set and I came on and I learned on the job. I read two books that exist about script supervision and I thought to myself that I can do it.
00:48:58
Speaker
And that's how I started making money in film, actually, by being a script supervisor. And at some point, I've been told by one producer, another producer, director, that my presence on set is a presence of a director and a filmmaker.
00:49:18
Speaker
that the producers would love to work with me or sell me to the agencies or have me on their rosters or commercials and stuff. But the problem is that I don't have a deal.
00:49:31
Speaker
And I don't have anything to show as a filmmaker and as a director. I definitely can show a couple of scripts that I sold, but who cares about that? So they came like this need for shooting material. And back in Russia, I was fortunate enough to collaborate with United Nations a lot. And I wrote and directed their art festivals. And before I did that,
00:50:01
Speaker
entered those festivals just independently and happened to win a couple of times with the short documentary I made and like this multimedia play.
00:50:15
Speaker
That material, first of all, is very dated, and I do not own it, and I wouldn't be able to put it on my reel. So even though I have that experience of actually editing, directing, or putting something on stage, it's nothing to put in your portfolio. So it was basically nothing zero as a director, especially a narrative director.
00:50:39
Speaker
So there was a need for something for a short film or some sort to be able to just use it as your business card and show to people to kind of give them an idea of who you are. So then it really is extremely important then, at least for getting into the industry in that respect.
00:50:59
Speaker
I would say so, especially in the world of commercial directing is where the agency usually writes the script or writes the campaign. And there is a client involved who actually ordered that campaign or that script at that spot, that commercial spot. And the director comes in and just shoots it. They have some kind of a vision, but they're not necessarily like a big creative presence on set. So for that,
00:51:29
Speaker
In order for a producer or production company to pitch you as a director to those agencies to hire you, you have to have a real. That real kind of shows who you are and it happens so that lately
00:51:45
Speaker
There is a lot of narrative directors entering commercial world and it's a hot trend for big agencies right now to hire narrative directors because they all want to do like narrative spots, like important storytelling kind of stuff like Nike, I don't know, like Pepsi.
00:52:10
Speaker
I don't know that stuff. They all are into a storytelling aspect of commercial spots and not just nice shots and view. So are you interested in commercials? Yeah. Are you interested in doing commercials? 100%. Or is it? 100%. Because I always like... Isn't that a fear though, going into commercials too? That you could be trapped in that and just like, because I know I've heard once you get into commercials, the money is pretty good. So you kind of...
00:52:37
Speaker
Man, I will sell out tomorrow. Okay.
00:52:43
Speaker
Just give me, give me, because, uh, you know, I've done at this point, I've done over like maybe 70 commercial spots as a script supervisor. So I've seen how it's done. Right. And I look at this director says like, I can't do this. There's not a problem because, and I'm saying, like, I'm saying it as a joke about selling now, but it's actually true.
00:53:09
Speaker
because I know what I want as a narrative filmmaker because I'm very confident in my vision of what I want to do in my future path that I don't feel scared or threatened by this path of actually making money or making a living as a commercial director because I know I'm not going to be sucked into that because there will be always a fire
00:53:35
Speaker
agenda as narrative or fiction filmmaker that's going to pull me out of it, you know what I mean? So since you have your like eye on the prize, you know, you can rest comfortably in the commercial world doing that because that's just, that's not the end game, right? Yes, correct, correct. So then the other question I had, so obviously it sounds like it's super important to have a reel and maybe that's one of the first things
00:54:04
Speaker
any aspiring filmmaker in whatever area should do first, but are there some areas where you don't have a real, for instance, script supervisor? I don't imagine there's reels for that, are there?
00:54:19
Speaker
Well, I have a reel as a script supervisor because I just had enough time to cut one and it was fun. But like from two years ago, it's just footage from the project you worked on. And what I did, because it's such an uncommon thing for a scripty to have a reel, I did it as a joke, half as a joke.
00:54:42
Speaker
But the thing is that I was just showing off because I would choose the scenes that were very challenging to shoot and without a script supervisor, it would be a hot mess. But because I wasn't set, it all cuts beautifully. So I would choose like a very covered scenes from different angles and I would show the action continuity and I would show that the actor did the same thing in all the shots and it cuts nicely.
00:55:11
Speaker
That's one thing. Also, I showed as a joke, I did the spot with Chris.
00:55:22
Speaker
Gert Hart, the comedian, Gert Hart. And there was a moment when he forgot the line and I read him the line and it ended up in a spot. So I used that as like line reading to actors. That's on my reel. That's in my skills too. So I put that on my reel. And then there was like kind of like eyeline stuff because that's your
00:55:48
Speaker
One of the biggest things that you do, you set up eye lines from shot to shot to make sure that it looks real, that the people are looking at each other or looking in the right direction or the right depth or stuff like that. So we shoot like cuts that complement each other and the actors actually looking at each other and it looks very natural.
00:56:11
Speaker
So i would put those shots as well and also just showing off because you using the biggest actors you worked with or biggest filmmakers you worked with and you put it on your reel because that's the thing that producers usually look at that your experience and do you have experience with a listers.
00:56:29
Speaker
do you have experience with big filmmakers? Because every every job that comes next usually hopefully will be bigger, right? Yeah. So you got to prepare for that. So how did you get? OK, so to bring it to Esther's choice, when it wasn't like, OK, I'm going to do my own, I'm going to set out and write and direct. What was when did you like come to that decision?
00:56:51
Speaker
Well, that was a complete accident, actually. So that 2019 is when I was kind of pushed by a couple of producers to be like, shoot something, come on, already, right? So I was always in the back of my mind that I should shoot something. And I ended up on this feature film with Annabella Seward that hopefully was going to come out soon in March, 2019, as a scriptie.
00:57:18
Speaker
We started in New York, all on location, upper west side. The thing is that I recommended this DP I worked with a couple of years prior on a short film. We kept in touch. I really like his vision and the way he carries himself on set. I wanted to make sure that we connect more, work together more. I recommend him as a gaffer.
00:57:43
Speaker
on to this feature and he came on board and we got to talk and one day at lunch he came up to me and said write something I want to shoot for you.
00:57:55
Speaker
When a man tells me something to do, why usually do that? As a Russian girl and a former Muslim brought up in the complete patriarchy, I obey. That's how it is over there. Exactly. Cannot take it out of a girl. I came home that day.
00:58:19
Speaker
And I looked around my apartment and I was like, what kind of story can I tell in this apartment with minimal cast? That's no-budget filmmaking 101 right there, right? Use what you have access to. Absolutely. Yeah. So I walk in and I see this closet and I start thinking about the story, which is basically very important for this. Sure, there's a closet involved there.
00:58:47
Speaker
I started writing the script on my phone in Final Draft mobile app while traveling to set and from set. In a couple of weeks, I had the draft and I showed it to my DP. He loved it. We got to talk about it more at lunch, at raps.
00:59:07
Speaker
and kind of like discussing it and stuff. And I always had an actress in mind when I was writing. And I find it really helpful to have a cast in mind when you write, even when I write the big feature film, I usually have my ideal cast in front of me, like just like in a collage of images, kind of informs my tone and the words I choose for them. But how do you deal if you don't get that cast?
00:59:42
Speaker
That's pretty privileged. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. It's just like I'm a big proponent of visual, of visualizing stuff and kind of manifesting. But this actress I work, I didn't even work with. I came on, on this feature film. She was a lead in, as a consulting script supervisor. I just helped the scripty they had on set. And I saw her in the scene. She was singing in a, in a nightclub and she was just
01:00:03
Speaker
Oh, well, that's never enough.
01:00:10
Speaker
Her presence on screen is enormous. She's so beautiful and so nuanced and so gentle and intelligent as an actor that really stayed with me and years later
01:00:26
Speaker
Here I am, harassing her on Facebook, asking to meet me and saying, like, you know, I thought about you when I was writing that script out of nowhere. I just came on to her and she was like, yeah, sure. And she read the script. She loved it. We've met. I confirmed my gut feeling. And she was the cast for me at that point.
01:00:47
Speaker
Yes, yes, that's Emma and she's the one. She was always the Esther for me and that's her film. It's written for her and she was kind of amused for me. But even at that point, when I reached out to her and I had some kind of a script,
01:01:04
Speaker
and my DB attached and interested, it wasn't as serious because, okay, I wrote the script and I was thinking about maybe producing, but again, you have to find money for it, and like, how do you go about that? And it was pretty busy at that point, like scripting a lot.
Pre-Production Challenges and Solutions
01:01:22
Speaker
And I had maybe like five
01:01:27
Speaker
actors shortlisted to reach out to who are big established actors, especially in TV. I would be looking at the IMDb Pro or Instagram and looking at the cat, the male actor, who would fit the look.
01:01:45
Speaker
I wouldn't know them personally and I have never worked with them. But it happened so that I ended up on a shortfall where Francois Arnaud was one of the lead characters. Yeah, he's a great artist. And I made sure. I watched Midnight Texas. I know probably not a lot of people watch that, but I love that show. I was a fan of True Blood and I know that's like a same university, same universe type stuff. And the Borges is amazing.
01:02:12
Speaker
Yes, yes, he is great in it. Yeah, when I saw that he was in it, I was like, I was like, holy shit. She got him. Like, he's awesome. Like, like you got to have killer cast. Like, I'm so jealous.
01:02:24
Speaker
Thank you. And I also have a supermodel with one million followers as a third. But the thing is that, you know, it's just sometimes it's luck too. But I made sure that I end up on that short film to script it because I haven't watched Francois in anything. I didn't know him as an actor. He just ended up on my Instagram and I was like,
01:02:49
Speaker
he looks good for the part, right? So I started following him or something and then his name came up when there was like a job posting for the short and I was like, okay, I gotta see this guy. So this three days that we spent together shooting that short film was the audition for him. It's not like I was a fan girl and I really wanted to work with him. I really watched the guy work and it's such a privilege to have
01:03:14
Speaker
to have to watch your probable cast in action with another director. Because they don't know you want to direct them. They don't know that you have some kind of plans. So they act naturally. You know how they're going to behave and what kind of a mood they're on set and how like what are they ticks and stuff. So it was great. And he was great. And I was like, okay, I think I can work with this guy.
01:03:42
Speaker
And I didn't tell him anything. I was just a scriptie on the job. But then we just said like there was a break or something waiting for the setup. And I was like, you know what? I think you might be really good for the script I have. And I was really genuine. I was not playing any game or anything.
01:04:03
Speaker
And I was kind of nervous because, you know, he can it was the first time we actually started talking. I think we were sitting in this director's chairs waiting for the camera to be rigged on the taxi cab. So.
01:04:16
Speaker
And I was like, okay. And he was like, well, I'd love to read it. And, uh, I waited for the rap, uh, of the film. So it doesn't like take all our time speaking about it while we're shooting some other movies or it's just being polite. I sent him the script and we didn't stop talking about it since then. We couldn't, you know, he loved the script. He was really interested in the, in the story and in the character and,
01:04:44
Speaker
He was so generous with his time. We would spend a lot of time on the phone speaking about his character, and he influenced the script a lot. And I would modify Michael, his role, and we would speak about the motivation and the backstory of it, like a bit of a typical talk of a director and actor. And he liked the story so much that he came on board as a creative producer as well.
01:05:14
Speaker
That's why he was very influential to the script and to the story as well. Sorry, hold on. Sorry, can I ask a question? So when you bring on an actor like that as a producer, does that change their pay rate and things like that? Also, does that bring on a fear too of their influence? I know maybe we'll get into financials a little later if that's okay. But something I'm interested in is like,
01:05:41
Speaker
It's very atypical casting. You didn't really go through hundreds of auditions or anything like that. You had your people and you got them. So for future projects and stuff like that, is that kind of how you want to set out with those people in mind and go after and hunt those people? And then when they come on, as you say for Arnaud, when he comes on as a producer,
01:06:05
Speaker
Like how does that change production for you? Does that make it cheaper? Is that easier, better? Well, I can tell you this. I produced the whole thing from the beginning to end all by myself, right? So there was no sharing of producing duties or anything. The producing role Francois took on was creating.
01:06:31
Speaker
So if he was suggesting a lot of things, we would work through a lot of story and mostly characters, right? Mostly motivations of the characters, mostly prep stuff, which is extremely important and very influential, but not so much so as like, okay, so are you gonna call the rental house right now and figure the shit out with them?
01:06:54
Speaker
Not to that extent. So I think he was excited to be involved creatively in that. And he thrived in that role of bringing his A-game not only as an actor, but also as a filmmaker and as a creator too, as his voice was appreciated.
01:07:17
Speaker
I took a lot of his notes. And that's when I realized and been told that I'm very much an actor's writer. In a way, I take notes like he was very gentle with me in the beginning, but at some point I just asked him to be blunt with me and he became blunt and I took the notes the right way. I was like, yes, I was never heard and I was never
01:07:46
Speaker
Being gentle with my words or with the sequences, whatever is on the page is just a draft. I never treat my scripts as like my babies. I cannot change anything. And he really took a while. Well, it sounds like you were. And it was really inspiring for him, I think, to be open. From listening to you talk about script supervising.
01:08:07
Speaker
It almost sounds like you take it that way as well because you said you were let you know when an actor was really into that scene or really getting into it, you said you wouldn't like provide those notes that they flip the line or whatever you would let them just go. And it sounds like that translated perfectly to your directing and handling of the script and collaborating.
01:08:26
Speaker
Yes, yes, I thrive in collaboration. I'm not afraid of it. But again, because not because I'm afraid of my own vision or whatever the voice and I want to take on whatever other people say and just like a piggyback on that. No, it's the opposite. I'm so confident in my vision that I do not think whoever's notes or whoever's idea is going to influence it that much that I'm going to lose my vision.
01:08:55
Speaker
Okay, absolutely. Absolutely. That's how I feel too is like the and also makes it more authentic the more they take on as well, because then they are adding their spice to it there that that thing that's inside them as actors.
01:09:09
Speaker
100% 100% yes you got to work with the with the actors and i'm a big big supporter of bringing the cast as soon as possible and writing the script for them because these are the people who are going to say the lines that you write and no one cares about your voice in that dialogue because no one will know who you are because you are just a writer they are the performers
01:09:35
Speaker
They are these people you created in your mind. Yes, of course, you're like Frankenstein them and stuff. Maybe it took a long time to come up with a backstory or whatever. But these are the people who we are going to believe or not believe. They're extremely important. That's how he came on board. Then when you have the name actor interested,
01:10:04
Speaker
and attached to your project, that's when it becomes serious, right? So he was, for me, I was like, okay, I guess I have to produce this film now. I guess I have to make this happen. It's almost always like I'm forced into success, you know what I mean? It's like a very reluctant kind of like, but the moment I set myself to it, like I just drive and not stop. Sounds like a great problem to have.
01:10:35
Speaker
I guess very privileged, very privileged. So I want to talk a bit more about pre production. What how does pre production go for you for Esther's choice? Did you storyboard? Did you write a shooting script? Did your DP write the shoot the shot scripts? How did how did that kind of stuff go? Did you do rehearsals?
01:10:53
Speaker
Also the moment we set up because because of everyone's busy schedules and then and the moment the third actor was very important to the script as well Mary Wiest came on board who I also met on set shooting a Maybelline commercial and she mentioned that she's also acting and I kept in touch with her.
01:11:11
Speaker
You know i was like you are perfect for this role let's do it so when she came on board it all became pre production was like wrangling everyone schedule and trying to shoot this baby you know i mean so i had probably a month.
01:11:26
Speaker
for B to pre-pro the shoot because for instance I was only available for like a couple that he was he was shooting blind spot and then he flew back to shoot my little film and then he had to fly back to shoot another thing so it was a lot of scheduling involved for sure and the moment we like set up the dates it was all about
01:11:46
Speaker
renting houses and location. My husband and I ended up selling the apartment I wrote the script for that summer. So a month out of my shoot, I don't have a location. We got lucky enough to find a much nicer spot as a rental and I was able to just move in and completely build the set inside.
01:12:11
Speaker
My landlord was really happy with the result but again there's a lot of stress and you kinda like entering this production you don't know what it is again the script change for that the closet change everything like that was it was all happening pre-production and i did it all by myself and then my dp.
01:12:31
Speaker
came in for tech scouts. So we did the tech scout with my crew. I brought them all in, did like a nice barbecue day, but we also walked around the apartment trying to figure out like, is this socket going to blow up when we put the light to it? Like what is going to happen? And having an access to the location you're going to shoot it is such an enormous advantage.
01:12:56
Speaker
I found myself walking around the house and finding the shots and frames that were super key to the look of the film and to the themes and the aesthetic. So I would definitely advise anyone who wants to start out to make it easy for yourself and shoot somewhere you have access to because that's going to add to your vision and add to the look of the film. Also just practicality.
01:13:25
Speaker
I mean, being practical is like number one. Like that's something that I would say. I'm not going to say I'm some big shot know it all, but it's like, dude, if you got, you have to be able to actually use the shit you have. That's so huge. It sounds like you having your apartment and being able to dress it however you like. That's huge.
01:13:45
Speaker
Oh, yes, absolutely. And then, you know, just being there by myself, like I had the genius production design, which is just still in school in Boston, studying theater production design. And I brought on board, it was like 50-50 for me crew-wise, actually, like people who have no experience and people who have experience, because I like to mix it up. I like to give people chances because they're going to deliver.
01:14:13
Speaker
And I like to give people jobs when they have experience because I know it's not going to be a problem for them to deliver. So just like buying stuff on Amazon, walking around, putting this art over here, painting this wall and having access and ability to do that was crucial.
01:14:34
Speaker
this whole thing because like i would do it twenty four seven and i would have access to it and i would dress the the stuff and i would change the furniture and try this thing and that thing and just shoot it on my iphone and see how it looks and stuff and then and then uh i was fortunate enough to get fronso i and uh and ama to do a table read but we only met once so they did a table read which also
01:14:59
Speaker
uh kind of worked for me as a chemistry test and I was so fortunate that they hit it off and they looked great and they sounded great together and I was like oh my god I'm so lucky because it wouldn't work I would be so screwed. Did you do any pre-pro rehearsals?
01:15:17
Speaker
We did the one table read. Unfortunately, Fransal was not available for any rehearsals, but Emma was.
Rehearsal Process and Crew Collaboration
01:15:24
Speaker
And we did one full day with Emma in the apartment with my DP setting all the shots. And it was so hard. Yeah, because I mean, that's something that we've been just discovering. It's just like, man, you can just dial that in. It just speeds everything up because how many days did you guys shoot?
01:15:43
Speaker
Three days, one day OT only. Oh, wow. Because we had to wrap. So was this a union shoot that everyone get paid union fees? No, no, no. But I paid really well for the project. Everyone's got paid. Well, because again, I'm the crew, right? I understand that it's a livelihood for a lot of people.
01:16:07
Speaker
So I made sure I put enough money to compensate my crew. So there was a lot of money spent on the gear as well, but it's usually in independent productions, the majority of it goes to labor. Yeah, of course. So how did you calculate that? Was it just knowing the average of what a gaffer makes an hour and then doing something close to that?
01:16:34
Speaker
Kind of, but also, you know, one of the things that I do on independent sets and why I still take on independent film jobs as a scriptee is because I look for crew. I'm constantly expanding my roster. So whoever ended up on my shoot are the best of the best from the roster. So I made sure that I get them one and they just sat there. I would say,
01:17:02
Speaker
What do you want? And they would say this and I would say okay you know and Guillermo definitely brought his gaffer his AC and I brought my second AC and it was definitely a collaboration of like Getting up crew and who's available and who can come in and give you a good deal and stuff but all
01:17:29
Speaker
It came from my experience working with these people previously on other shoots. I always wonder about the shot scripts. Did you write that with your DP? Did he write that?
01:17:43
Speaker
I didn't have a shot. Okay. Uh, the shooting script, not a big fan of it. Uh, as a director, I might be helpful for, for the DP or AD probably not even the DP, but AD. Why aren't you a fan of it though? Because I'm not going to look at it as a director. I'm not going to look at the shooting script. I mean, unless, uh, unless it's like,
01:18:11
Speaker
crucial for the camera moves. But basically, because I'm a writer-director, I wrote the script for the edit. And I wrote the script with the ideal coverage that I wanted to have on the page. And also a script supervisor as well. I know how to line a script. Usually, when you line the script, it shows you a coverage of the scene, right? So you draw the lines with a ruler.
01:18:37
Speaker
against the page showing the sizes and showing the length of the shot. So thinking forward for my script supervisor on my set, I definitely wrote the script
01:18:53
Speaker
There was one strip that was for me only that had like a lot of emotions in it and it's like frustrated or isolated or like in depth and stuff just underlined and that's not usually what you put on the script especially when you're trying to sell it because you know use
01:19:10
Speaker
You try to avoid all this prosaic thing. But for a director, I wrote those things because there was a concept that I was striving for in that shot. So at the end of it, by the first shooting day, there was a hybrid script.
01:19:27
Speaker
That was kind of my ideal coverage and some of the stuff that I put for myself, right? And for an acting and emotion and stuff. So that was the script that we work with. I mean, it changed a bit with some dialogue and stuff, but it's not like we had to sit down and write a shooting script and camera movements because our shot list was very extensive.
01:19:52
Speaker
So we didn't need a shooting script. OK, awesome. What was the size of your crew? How many people did you actually have on set? We had on set around 30 people. Oh, wow. So that's pretty big. I mean, all I know. Yes, that's a feature-filled ambition for a little short film. Yeah, I mean, that's got to be... I mean, did you have an AD that was handling that size of crew?
01:20:15
Speaker
Yes, I had an AD who was a little less experienced in the AD position, but I had a very experienced UPM. So the administrative part was taking care of handling the crew and paying everyone and leading the ship.
01:20:40
Speaker
You know, as a producer myself and person who knows all these people personally from previous shoots, like I never found any.
01:20:51
Speaker
problems or there was no struggle with handling this kind of people because they all just like tuned in. They worked together for so long and for so many times that there was no, you know, getting to know each other. There was just like coming in. OK, awesome. I know I'll let Stephen ask some questions too. I'm sorry if I'm taking all your time, buddy.
01:21:12
Speaker
But we always talk about, and this is Steven's coat, so I'm stealing it from you, buddy. But we always talk about how an army marches on their belly. So what about craft services? What were some
Sustainability and Crew Morale
01:21:21
Speaker
of the key meals you guys had? We love to talk about this because it feels like when there's good food, everyone is just so much happier.
01:21:29
Speaker
Oh, I cannot agree more with this. As a crew, for sure, I know how influential it is for the good mood and for the spirit. So we ended up shooting in Union City, New Jersey, where I'm actually at right now. It is located right in front of Midtown, on the water, on the Hudson.
01:21:53
Speaker
And it is very Hispanic and there's a lot of Latin American people here. So the cuisine was not a question. We went with Latin American and I just contacted the local restaurant and they catered the whole three days with a variety of food. Like with some, there was like good chicken, meat, rice, so plantains for the sweets and stuff.
01:22:18
Speaker
So I made sure to put some good money into food and catering. Everyone loved it.
01:22:27
Speaker
And we had our first AC, she's vegan and my second actress is pescatarian vegan as well so we had some dietary restrictions and I ended up like just cooking every night for them some quinoa and stuff and it was exhausting but it was fun because they got to eat something that I cooked for them. Well so you actually cooked on set too, huh?
01:22:54
Speaker
Yeah, because you know, that's the dietary restrictions, especially you don't think about that. And then that one when that's an issue, then it's like, oh, God, now I got to accommodate this person. And I got to make them happy to hard because like everyone had their own special need. We made the mistake of shooting an ensemble for our first movie.
01:23:16
Speaker
And like our cast was huge and like everyone had it was like we had a guy that was like a bodybuilder and he was like, I can't eat carbs. And it's like, well, it's like you can't eat anything we're making for anyone else. And then some people were vegan and it's like everyone liked hummus and it's like hummus is expensive.
01:23:33
Speaker
And if you look at Tom and I and our team, you know, we'll eat anything. But then when you got the Hollywood actors, you know, they have to have that specific diet so that their skin looks great, their muscles look great and all. Yeah, but I think it's.
01:23:47
Speaker
But hey, that's the priority. It's a huge thing because if people are well fed and I know for us, hydration was a big thing. Everyone needs to keep drinking water. We need to be safe and hydrated. I want to bring this back to safety. Did you have a safety manager on set? Was the AD just doing safety? How did you guys handle that?
01:24:11
Speaker
So here's the thing, safety wise and stuff. As a producer, I put my foot down and I try to have a sustainable set.
01:24:24
Speaker
That was not such a big trend back then, but right now it is very much so. A lot of production companies signed these agreements with sustainability companies and stuff. But what I did is we had a coffee machine, a water cooler, and
01:24:43
Speaker
I invested and it was not such a big investment. I just bought on this, some kind of Alibaba website. I bought like 30 plastic reusable bottles and everyone had their name tag on it. Everyone got to keep the bottle. Don't want to spread that video, that COVID, you know what I'm saying? I didn't want the plastic bottles on set because I
01:25:08
Speaker
hate it when people do not finish it and just leave it on set. It's not going to happen on my watch. And I bought, just went to Starbucks and I bought their, their, you know, colorful sets of cups they have for coffee. So there was no like styrofoam or like even like paper cups. Wow. You bought the fancy stuff.
01:25:32
Speaker
I bought. I did. I did. And everyone got to keep it as a memory. Also, because breakfast is important, there's like this very good French place.
01:25:47
Speaker
like a little chain and did do croissants and baked goods. So what I did is every morning my crew had fresh croissants and coffee and I made them all scrambled eggs and bake myself. I would wake up if I would have three hours of sleep.
01:26:07
Speaker
but I would wake up and make them breakfast because I wanted them to come have a coffee and have a pastry and start the day on a good note. It's extremely important. Yes, it is. I mean, the happiness of your team makes the day go by better. But what
Managing Personal Needs on Set
01:26:26
Speaker
about yourself? Because I know on our set, Tom and I, we always put ourselves last and as a result, sometimes that means we were dehydrated. Sometimes that means we were underfed.
01:26:36
Speaker
Did you go through that on your set? I lost like four or five pounds on that shoot. I got to tell you. It was great, actually. I was really happy. But you know, you just forget. And also, you might relate to that. But yes, I was never dehydrated because I have this water bottle in my hand and my phone in my hand all the time like a junkie. So that was not an issue for me. But I haven't eaten.
01:27:04
Speaker
Like I would end up like just at the end of the day, I was like, did I eat today at all? Or because everyone would go to lunch and I would go and have my director's book and kind of like powwow with myself and trying to collect myself and be like, what is the next thing that I have to tackle? And as a producer, like there's so many things that get thrown at you that have nothing to do with creative. Yeah. And you have to deal with those and it kind of takes you away all the time. So yeah, definitely, definitely underfed.
01:27:35
Speaker
But there's a girl who's like, yay, let's do more. How much weight can I lose now? Well, also that's just a good time. That's such a great moment, our time to...
01:27:48
Speaker
focus on what you need to do and kind of catch up on time is during the lunch break, right? Cause that's an extra hour you can do to catch up on what you're behind on. So then for any directors out there doing their film, would you tell them like, Hey, that's a great time to maximize your time scheduling, or should they, you know what, it's lunchtime. Take the hour, half hour off, eat, and then recollect yourself.
01:28:15
Speaker
Well, whatever works best for that person. The thing
Creative Compromises and Crew Unhappiness
01:28:22
Speaker
is that if they will gain a proper energy from just talking about nothing with their crew on set, and that would help their energy as a director on set, they should 100% do that. I, as I mentioned before, strive in silence.
01:28:44
Speaker
I need my time by myself. I like my space. So I would just take the opportunity and get out. And now that I'm thinking about it, I don't think I had much by myself. I had to talk to Francois about something. I had to go out with my DP and stuff. But again, I would just step out and maybe take a second because it did definitely get hectic on set.
01:29:11
Speaker
Of course, we didn't have enough time and I would spend a lot of takes and stuff for tweaking the light and on the non-dialogue scenes, I had to cut out completely a storyline told in inserts on hands.
01:29:28
Speaker
because I just didn't have time and I had to pick my fight and I chose something else over it and definitely my transitions in the edit definitely suffered from that because the script was written that every scene would start with the hands answered
01:29:45
Speaker
And that would be the pacing of it because hands in each shot in each scene will change somehow, right? So if you take out that storyline, you have to think about how do I start my scene. So that scripting line kind of gets into you too. And you're like, well, how do I start the scene now? Do I have a camera move? Do I do?
01:30:03
Speaker
I have to do a dissolve now or something like that. And, you know, I'm really happy with the pacing of the film, but there are some kind of decisions you have to make. And so that will definitely sacrifice some of your vision. So at
Scheduling and Equipment Strategies
01:30:16
Speaker
some point, you know, there was a moment when my AGE came into me and
01:30:23
Speaker
For some reason, he decided to tell me that the crew was not happy or something. And I don't think they were not happy. At least I didn't feel that way. And it immediately took me out of my moment because I am the crew. So I've been there. And that is the last thing as a filmmaker I want is my crew to be
01:30:49
Speaker
I'm frustrated with and it definitely take me took me out of it and i was so down and i didn't feel good and you completely start thinking about something else when you are on the clock and you have to make your movie so we actually took my husband to get to set.
01:31:09
Speaker
He stole my face and was like, what is going on? And that's also where you got to snap out of it. Yeah, because that's when you start compromising. And that's when it's like, that's never a good thing is when you start compromising. It's not.
01:31:25
Speaker
Yeah, it's not even compromising, it's just stop being a director and being a human being. And I made a mistake of wasting 40 minutes of a filmmaking mode into a human mode, which is understandable because I was brought into this emotional state.
01:31:47
Speaker
As of now, the lesson that I learned from it is that filmmaking first. Whatever the emotional blah blah blah and whatever stuff that has to be handled, I will let my producers deal with it.
01:32:03
Speaker
It also feels like a very day thing because like for us it was like the end of the day was like when we would get with everyone it's like air your grievances now because like we're done shooting for the day so we can get that shit out on the like get get it out in the front of everything so we can handle it because I mean we do def there's no way you're gonna get through Scott clean every time because
01:32:24
Speaker
It's just it's hard something i wanted to really to get on was did you only have three days for scheduling reasons for financial reasons did you want more days would you have one more days i would say we would benefit from the fourth day for sure.
01:32:39
Speaker
that would make our lives much easier. But I think we went with three because of scheduling, because even if we would have the fourth day, I think some of the, I think Fransol would not be available for that day. And so that would make sense if I would add the fourth day, I would just spend
01:33:00
Speaker
the whole day with one scene that is crucial to the pill, which is a five-minute fight scene. So I would just shoot from the morning till you can, daylight-wise, shoot that scene.
01:33:15
Speaker
which was definitely a dream but they didn't happen and also three days is kind of usual thing for rentals yeah when you when you rent the equipment for that.
01:33:30
Speaker
day which is friday and then you have to return it on monday so you pay basically for a day but you have the equipment for three what did you shoot with so yeah what equipment did you actually rent
01:33:47
Speaker
Oh, we have, we had a bunch and we had a very big package. We had the lighting package that was accommodating blasting through windows when we need it on daylight. One quick question. So for the lighting, was it, do you know what kind of lighting it was? Was it LEDs, tungsten? Cause you were talking about like overloading the outlets. No, we used, we used ARRI big shit. Okay, awesome. Oh, you used ARRI lights then. Yeah. Do you know if they were tungsten or LED?
01:34:15
Speaker
No, no LED for sure. Wow. Okay. And what about the camera? So yes, a lot of diffusion stuff, of course. But then...
01:34:25
Speaker
A camera was Aria Mira, and with the... You're so fancy. Oh, stop it. Stop it. You are. But have you seen the film? It looks great. Yes, I've reached you because I saw it. We saw the teaser. It looks great. Hey, we'd love to see the short. And speaking of it, this hopefully not derails, but I saw you needed some moderators.
01:34:51
Speaker
Maybe Steven, if we could do it together, I would definitely love to come on and do Q&A and help you out. Oh, I'd love to have you guys. That would be such a great addition. That festival LAFAM, they're running it pretty seriously just on the level of a new big festival. So they're trying to accomplish the same.
01:35:16
Speaker
Think by having a q&a by having a real screen and having people moderate and come in and ask questions and stuff so yeah we'll talk about it later but with so we used idea and there was some pretty standard lens package we had a change by thirty five fifty sixty two lenses he used.
01:35:38
Speaker
Yes, we use hooks, but big ones. God damn. Okay, yeah. S42 stuff, you know what I mean? Well, you had people who knew what they were doing, so of course, you have a great DP. Yes. Lenses were actually kind of a last-minute choice because we wanted to, Guillermo initially wanted to go with super speeds.
01:36:08
Speaker
But then we talked about it a little bit more and decided that it would be too sharp. Yeah. Oh, really, too sharp. So what do you mean by that? Because I'm sure people will want to know. Too sharp, too fast, too crispy, not the look of the skull. There's so much I want to get into, God damn.
01:36:30
Speaker
film versus digital, right? Because like you just said mentioned too sharp. And it's like, that's what I feel like with digital is like things just get too sharp. And it's like film like Stephen and I have talked about this a lot where like film just has this depth of the grain and everything you just there's feels like there's a richness to the look. Do you is that is that something that you were concerned with with shooting digital or
01:36:53
Speaker
Well, not for aesthetic reasons, like what you say, the grain and the depth. It's all like, you know, the beauty circle. Oh, but I love that. I love it. Yes. But, you know, I'm all for it as long as it enhances the story. Yeah, of course. Definitely. If I would have some kind of a sci-fi going, like,
01:37:17
Speaker
matrix, kind of like a hero's journey film with the main protagonist overcoming some stuff. Super speeds would be great because I need that greatness, I need that sharpness and being in the moment and being super hyped, right?
01:37:33
Speaker
Yeah,
Learning from Filmmaking Experience
01:37:34
Speaker
that's a good point. But thematically, the film was very far away from being certain of things, right? Very far away from being sharp and confident and stuff. So we needed a little bit of a mellow look to kind of highlight the emotional state of the character, you know? And that is the kind...
01:37:58
Speaker
That is kind of a conversation you must have before you go with the, with the lenses and stuff. And even though Guillermo's first impression was like, just because he loved working with this, uh, with this lenses before he was like, Hey, let's do you, let's use them. But then we got to talk more and he was like, you know what, maybe they're too sharp. And when we went with cooks.
01:38:18
Speaker
I was really contemplating of using 27 instead of 25, just because I had this DP telling me 20, 27 is just something else. But then I ended up with 25 and it looked just as nice.
01:38:34
Speaker
The equipment wise, I actually talked about it a little bit, but we had two dollies because I could have, I'm a big fan of official dolly, but it wouldn't just fit in the apartment. So we had to use the Dana dolly to accommodate the spaces and the doorway for the 360 shot that is kind of featured a little bit in the teaser. We basically locked down the spark with cops, set up the tracks,
01:39:03
Speaker
And I owe my life to my grip and my genie department just because while I was shooting an emotional scene inside the house, they were out there in the park setting up the dolly. And I just walked into the park with my actors.
01:39:20
Speaker
said on the dolly, we shot it seven times, I walked away, shook the hand of a cop and just moved on with my life. That was the best investment in my filmmaking career, is having that ability to walk in, shoot, walk out while your crew does stuff. It was so worth it. Just having the permit, having the cops, putting the tracks the right way.
01:39:46
Speaker
It was a money shot of the film that I always planned for, and it definitely paid off. And so because of that, we had to have two dollies. And one of the other bigger equipment stuff was a jib, jib frame. That was the only way to put the Gatsby Alishas. They were also kind of featured in the teaser. But basically, again, filmmaking 101,
01:40:15
Speaker
you have only one location, you gotta make it interesting, right? So I made the storyline in the script told by a one-shot scene, kind of a scene. And it goes through the whole film, whereas the God's POV, the overhead shot is looking on the bed of the character. And it starts out with one emotional state of her, when she's happy and kind of goes through the whole film.
01:40:41
Speaker
film and looks at her in the morning and at night and the same shot and the camera doesn't move and it was very fun to shoot because we would set up the jib at night in the same location to do a jump cut for the morning shot and nothing could change. Nothing. And I was really contemplating sleeping under that jib and that bat.
01:41:04
Speaker
But I didn't that day and I was like, I'm going to mess it up somehow. So I just walked out. So that was the kind of also a big investment, but it also paid off because it just like at the end of the day, on the first day, I shot 30% more than 30% of my film because of those two shots. Wow, that's awesome. That one. If there was a story to tell, I completed it on the first day and I was really satisfied with that decision.
01:41:32
Speaker
But you know i'm not sure a lot of filmmakers can arrive beginning filmmakers will arrive at all these decisions key decisions i had to make my dp and i my upm and i my cast and i.
01:41:49
Speaker
without an experience or seeing other filmmakers fail. It is such an advantage of seeing the same things that you have to go through as a filmmaker from inside and watching other people go through it. Yeah, because there is definitely a method to it, right? Even though everything's done completely uniquely,
01:42:10
Speaker
But there's also just like, OK, I know how to achieve this shot. I know how to achieve this look by watching others try at it. And something I guess I want to ask is, did you have like a date on set? How it was the footage handled?
01:42:25
Speaker
Oh my God, there's a story there. I did not have a DIT and I paid so much for it. I paid for that mistake and never again I'm walking into set asking my second AC to do the dump.
01:42:43
Speaker
Because we ended up losing. What's a dit for all those who don't know? DIT, digital imaging technician. Yes. It's basically on the bigger sets, it's basically a person who colors on set.
01:42:59
Speaker
They have their own stand and a setup and usually DPs spend a lot of time with them because they want to check their exposure and the colors and maybe apply a lot in the look and the color of the footage they're doing. So they apply like an on-set color grade then?
01:43:17
Speaker
Correct. Yes. Yes. They color great. They check the exposure. They'll let you know that this looks good and all that stuff. So the DB on the bigger sets only. We also handle the footage, right? The hard drives and.
01:43:31
Speaker
Yes, also drop the footage, dump the footage. On the smaller sets, usually they add, even on the call sheet, there's like second AC slash DIT. What it usually means is just like the second AC will be also adding to their duties the dumping of the footage on the hard drives.
01:43:55
Speaker
And something happened to one of the freaking cards that we were using. One of the days, I think it was the last day, and they just didn't eat. Oh, God. And also... That hurts.
01:44:08
Speaker
It was a sex scene that opens up a movie. It was shot in a way that I only had two shots because I had to cut the inserts, but only two shots. 50-50 profile and a GIF to establish the visual language of the film and blah, blah, blah, whatever.
01:44:38
Speaker
Because it's on a chip. And for some reason, Amira, you have to click on the button to start the record and you cannot do it on a new class. Like your focus puller cannot start the camera. You have to start on camera on the body.
01:44:53
Speaker
So we ended up with like, and I would run into the room with my notes and like have fun with my cast while they're pretending to have sex. And we ended up with like 10 minutes of every take, right? Every take was really long. So I guess that contributed to the corruption of the file. Thank God only one role got corrupted and only on that role there was only one scene, the sex scene.
01:45:19
Speaker
Yeah. So two months later, I salvage the footage. I paid $2,000 to this huge data salvaging company that works for Pentagon.
01:45:36
Speaker
I was waiting for those drives just to arrive. These guys deal with very secret data salvaging the drives that were like drowned in the ocean. Here I am just explaining. It's a very important scene that opens up my movie. Did they know exactly what was on there?
01:46:03
Speaker
Yes, they did know and I send them the drive that was corrupted and stuff and I was trying to explain what's going
Filming Intimate Scenes
01:46:10
Speaker
on and I said, you know, there's gonna be like you have to have and I'm kind of tacky so I was able to speak their language so I was explaining to them and you know, there's somewhere in Cleveland which was sketchy already but
01:46:25
Speaker
They sent me the drives and you know what? It was worth it. It was the most expensive sex in my life and I wasn't even involved.
01:46:37
Speaker
It was so worth it to save that scene. But then, you know, when you were in that situation, and you just wrapped, and you look at your drives, and you give it to your assistant editor, and you start thinking and start calculating, okay, is it doable for me to reshoot the scene, to bring all the crew, all the light, the actors, and shoot in that room, or is it,
01:47:04
Speaker
worth it to just pay a lot of money to these people to salvage it. I think it was cheaper to salvage the thing. Also, we moved out of that rental right after we arrived. There was not like coming back to the apartment. I would be like coming to my landlord and asking, can I shoot a scene here since I changed your apartment completely?
01:47:29
Speaker
Can I still shoot here, you know? Well, bringing that up. So, wait, hold on. Let me ask you this before we transition. How difficult is that to shoot? Because I know for me, I never want to include a sex scene unless it's extremely pertinent to the story, just because, well, one, be male, and how awkward that can be to be like, hey, ladies, get naked. So, how do you navigate that as a director? That's my question as well. And as a writer. You got it, buddy.
01:48:02
Speaker
Where do i start again experience i would say i've been on sets when there was a close set. And the a list actor requested everyone out of the except for me and the director by the by the camera.
01:48:20
Speaker
I've been on those intense sets and I've been on sets when everyone would just hover around just because an actress is a newbie and she's like, can, doesn't, doesn't feel like that. She has that way to ask for intimacy and stuff. Yes. Yes. Yes.
01:48:38
Speaker
One of the reasons why it's such a touchy subject is not even just what you shoot. It's the crew because everyone forgets that there's 40 people standing behind the monitors and sometimes they don't necessarily need to be there. Because it's a sex scene and everyone's cheeky about it, they just stay. That's not good. That's screwed up.
01:49:01
Speaker
So, and I had a kind of an experience of like a, an intimacy coordinator slash scripts advisor for this, for, for this pilot I did. And there was a couple of sex scenes and you know, you're just being present and you, you, you open up and you talk about everything extensively. Uh, and I was ready to do that. This the same thing with, with my cast and, uh, but the, it turns out it was not needed because.
01:49:30
Speaker
They just both understood what is needed in that scene. That is not really about sex, but about showing what this couple is and who they are. And for me, as a short filmmaker, that was the easiest thing to show the chemistry of the people and who they are and where they are in their relationship by just showing how they have sex.
01:49:57
Speaker
Rather than having a dialogue or a sequence of them going grocery shopping together or meeting their parents, it just gets going across so much faster. But it's hard though, right? Because I feel like there is this almost stigma against it because for us, we had a shower scene.
01:50:15
Speaker
And we cleared out the room. It was just Steven and I and the actress shooting the scene because that's what she requested. But it's like, man, even for us, it was like we wanted to make you comfortable, but it's like we don't want to make you uncomfortable. It's like this weird navigation of
01:50:33
Speaker
comfort levels and what can be shown and what can't be shown. And so I just like I think I think it's kind of fascinating as well, because it's obviously completely different per person. Every actor and actress is completely different. And just hearing you talk about it is like, Yeah, okay. Because like, like Steven said, like we really actually avoid
01:50:54
Speaker
having any of those kinds of scenes in our movies just because... Especially in the Me Too era, you know? Yeah, we just don't... Just being extra cognitive of what we're putting people through. But do you think your filmmaking suffers from it because you cannot have those things? Of course. In a sense, yes, of course. That's screwed up. Because any time you restrict yourself, you're suffering, right? Because ultimately, the only thing that matters is the art and the story.
01:51:23
Speaker
Because there is a rawness to sexuality. There is something beautiful about it as well. I mean, there is intent behind what we are doing, but there's also like, I'm sure you've mentioned, you've talked about this already, but like practicality.
01:51:39
Speaker
Where it's like, do you want to have your body shown forever and ever by us capturing it through this scene? I mean, we can shoot carefully and avoid showing quote unquote money shots. But it's like, man, we are trying to accomplish something here that is risque, raw.
01:52:01
Speaker
you know, just a beautiful human body. Like, but so I mean, I was just refreshing to hear you talk about it, that it's like, OK, we're going to do this scene. And it's because to us, it's like we avoid all that stuff with like, because it's like we don't want to compromise anyone's comfort level. And it's like, I guess it's maybe this is so screwed up. Yes.
01:52:25
Speaker
This is not good. I do not like this trend because if you want to get comfortable with people and be nice, be a psychologist. You know what I mean? It's like we're making art here. We're telling people stories and sex and intimacy is one of the biggest things that hold our humanity, I think, or just show
01:52:50
Speaker
very fast and very easy of who we are and where we are in our relationships with other people. I don't think you should continue being scared of it. I think you just should figure out the way to speak about it.
01:53:03
Speaker
I don't know, I'm one of those never nudes. So, you know, like me naked, it's like, oh no, oh, you know, that's pretty much the whole approach to that. But I think that is a very scary, especially when you're doing like short films and whatnot, and trying to get that level of comfort with an actor. I mean, I guess money has to talk right at that point.
01:53:31
Speaker
Like if you want to go there, there has to be a certain amount of compensation to just show that. I don't know. There's a certain amount of sincerity. I wouldn't bring money to it though, man. No. Then it's like becomes transactional. Well, I'll say for our actresses.
01:53:50
Speaker
They were willing to do nude scenes, at least from how they made it sound, but they needed to be compensated for it. And of course, in our end, we're asking people to do this for free, not getting naked, but to be in our film for free. So a lot of them were like, okay, we don't mind showing that part of us, but there has to be that compensation.
01:54:15
Speaker
I see. Well, yeah, I see. I see. So that's like experience you had. I think my advice, especially with like intimacy coordinator position being very present on bigger sets, like with HBO leading, leading the, the, the trend and kudos to them. Like I love HBO sets. This
01:54:38
Speaker
It's never a bad idea to talk it through, to be super blunt and be like, and also what is helpful too. I mean, I didn't do it with my cast, but if I would not have like that level of intimacy with my cast and they would not together.
01:54:58
Speaker
be like on the same page which has got completely lucky I didn't have to control it that anyway they just were professionals right there you know just going through this stuff and I was just fascinated watching them work and like bring their egg in one but if I would not have that
01:55:15
Speaker
level and that support of a backstory and I would have like this cast that I never worked with or something like I brought on I'm brought on the project that I didn't write or I'm not gonna produce like and I have to deal with this like it happens in TV a lot right yeah when you just brought on for the episode so I would just talk it through and also be very visual because like you guys
01:55:38
Speaker
the shower scene or the nude or the or the or the I don't know the or the body shot or or sex or like rape or something like it's there for a reason absolutely right so you you definitely drew it
01:55:56
Speaker
out from somewhere, it doesn't happen and is not created in a vacuum. Definitely saw some movies that use the same techniques, same lighting, same mood, same tone. Maybe it was a music piece, maybe a music video, maybe an art piece. I used a lot of references from art because I like fine art and paintings. What I would do, I would just create a deck of what I feel
01:56:23
Speaker
that I want to accomplish, this is the thing that I see my actor in that scene doing and just show blah, blah, blah, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. There's enough new scenes out there for the reference, for all kinds of references. And then I will just be like, so here it is.
01:56:43
Speaker
Like, I think there's a beat when you sit on top of him. There's a beat when he bites you. There's a beat when you walk out of the shower naked. Or it's like, so you just talk it through extensively. So they know that you are willing to be honest, blunt and not cheeky or not flirty about it. Because that's the worst thing. It's like, oh, haha, we just had a sex scene. Like, oh, this is the worst. Yes. Yeah, that's the worst. That's the worst.
01:57:17
Speaker
I could jump in because I definitely want to thank you because I feel like that gives me a new level of confidence because we are doing a reshoot of our opening scene because it was just like it was like shot on the last day and everyone was just like super exhausted and it just didn't go well. So where we are redoing it, COVID kind of like pushed it back a lot. But it's like, yeah, this scene is like kind of it has a lot of very
01:57:35
Speaker
Oh shit, I forgot what I was gonna say.
01:57:46
Speaker
risque type things in it and for a purpose. So I want to thank you because it's like man because something Steve and I have struggled with because it's like look, we the idea of making someone uncomfortable or even just like if we're open with it, it's just like it's it's just a weird topic.
01:58:02
Speaker
It's not an everyday kind of thing. I mean, like even when we shot originally, it's like it's fucking weird. Like it is. It is just kind of weird because it's like, do you want everyone on set? Do we need to kick people off set? And I guess like for and just hearing about how you handle it and like that just gives me a new level of confidence in a way to approach it. That is, I think is going to be the most appropriate and meaningful.
01:58:27
Speaker
Mm hmm. So, you know, big thank you so much. But I guess I want to ask is like when you do have challenging scenes like that. How do you kind of figure out, OK, do you compromise in a way to where the actor is comfortable or is it like this needs to be done like this because this is important for the the storytelling or X, Y or Z? Oh, there is some.
01:58:55
Speaker
Oh yeah, man, it depends because again, like I'm not going to give you a straight answer here because there's so many variables to it, right? But, you know, like there were instances in that, especially in that fight scene that like goes for five minutes and it's basically just one locked up shot of 50 50 them sitting at the table and just arguing, you know, when the camera doesn't move, there's no cutaways and it's very uncomfortable.
01:59:23
Speaker
So you have to make sure when you let yourself as a filmmaker into such a ballsy thing of not covering the fight scene without the close-ups for cutaways to make the cut for. Every single take in that one or four, five minutes has to be good or has to work because you will end up in the edit, you will end up with only one take.
01:59:52
Speaker
So both of the actors, and God forbid you have more than two, in that kind of coverage scene, have to be good. I made that decision of covering that shoot 50-50 before going in, because I knew I'm not going to
02:00:13
Speaker
in how have a time for close-ups. I wish I would, just because I wanted to get a little role, especially with the male character, and be like right in his face. But the thing is that there was an instance that I wasn't really happy with what one of my cast, I don't remember who he or she was doing emotionally and acting wise in the scene.
02:00:43
Speaker
How I handled it is that, and it basically applies for everything. I do not fly in with a note and tell them be angrier or be blah, blah, blah. I never give them a result. I try to manipulate them into arriving at the result, at the emotion that I'm trying to show or I'm trying to enhance.
02:01:10
Speaker
So what I would do is I would come in with a question. And I would say, how do you feel about this? And I would basically coach them and trying them into doing that. And something there is
Directing Actors and Emotional Guidance
02:01:24
Speaker
definitely a lot of exercises and stuff.
02:01:27
Speaker
would not put a name on it or say who like my nearest time is last year, whoever came up with it. I just do it by God's being like, you guys do not know anything and jump into that. That's how I deal with directing. I try not to read a lot of directing actors books because I don't want to lose my, my own kind of sensibility to it. So I would come in and say, he just said to you this thing, right?
02:01:53
Speaker
This is what he means. And this is what you feel in this moment. Show this to me. So I would explain the situation as a person who was watching it or as a director. I would give them an example. Or I would just say, this is what is happening. Get into it. Even if you're saying these things, the subtext is different.
02:02:16
Speaker
So this is what you feel. So basically, especially if I'm trying to make them angry or frustrated or stuff, I would play with it. I would be a little kubricky on that. I would just make them angry. I would be like, this is not working. Let's do this. Or arrive there. I'm kind of trying to do that stuff.
02:02:38
Speaker
I was gonna say, are you ever afraid of just them walking away from that kind of thing? Or are you just confident in their professionalism that they'll push through that kind of thing? I know one of my biggest fears is pushing an actor too far and then they're just like, fuck it, I'm out of here.
02:02:55
Speaker
Yeah, I see. Well, the thing is that I'm so nice and gentle and kind to them, offset. And in every other instance, that it's just going to be foolish. It's just not logical.
02:03:11
Speaker
because they should know that I don't mean it in that way. And I'm never like rude, you know, I'm never like trying to be. I'm not not that cool. Like, I'm not. Right. So when you say cool break, I'm like, he sure, I'm thinking Shelley and.
02:03:26
Speaker
Shelly Duvall. Because it's a PTSD there a little bit. Yeah, yes, yes. He definitely, he meant it. I think he meant it. She's like, she needed some mental health after that. And he didn't care. That's the whole conversation about some people with allegations and some being assholes but not being canceled for that. And being praised and artists and geniuses for their methods or whatever.
02:03:54
Speaker
Right. So this is like the double. Well, again, that's where you have to separate the artists from who they are. Right. Yes. Yes, exactly. So and there was an instance, for example, like a quick quick thing from. So I would walk in into this into the scene and bring like take out and she's cleaning in the room. And he was kind of muddy for me.
02:04:20
Speaker
I was like, what is this? What is going on? What is this scene? What is your performance about this moment? Where are you at? He was a little busy on set or something. I wasn't very deep into it. It took me one thing. Even though I didn't approach him or whisper anything, I was just behind the camera. I said to him, this is the first time she cleans in your house.
02:04:47
Speaker
And he was like, got it. He walked in and next time he just did whatever I wanted, he did. So sometimes it's about like.
02:04:59
Speaker
So here's the deal, this is the thing. And I find myself doing that a lot. I'll be like coming in and I remember too, I was super gentle with them. And Emma actually brought me to more of like a blunt state herself as an actress. I'll be like, but how do you feel about this? And it was all in my face. Like I'm very honest person. So if I don't like something and I don't feel confident in something, it's all in my face. I cannot play. So they can tell right away, huh?
02:05:27
Speaker
They can tell, they can tell for sure. It's about being vulnerable with your cast too. You gotta show them. Yes, you lead in them and you are directing them, but also there's so much power and vulnerability in being open. And she was like...
02:05:42
Speaker
And I was trying to find words and be like, well, how do you feel about this and this and that? It's like, do you want me to do something different? And I was like, yes, I would like to. And she just did something different where I could save a lot of time by beating the bush and just come on and just ask, try something different. Yeah, right. So it's all about trials and trying, finding your own words.
02:06:10
Speaker
finding your shorthand with that actor. I mean, for I mean, I know for us, some of the actors, it was like, OK, this guy needs six to seven takes no matter what. He just has to break down. He has to just just break down that, like, I don't know what it is that that barrier, that thing that he's holding, they're holding on to learning what the actor needs. Right. Because some actors need they got it down. Pat, the first few takes and then they get worse. And some actors need.
02:06:37
Speaker
practice to get comfortable and then they got it take seven through 10. Yeah. So, so I do have this question, Alia. Um, do you ever get, cause I've been thinking about this a lot just as a director, getting bigger names onto my projects. And I mean, me and Tom always talk about like a dream actor of ours would be Daniel D. Lewis.
02:07:03
Speaker
Uh-huh. And it'd be like, yeah, man, you just put him in the role. He's going to knock it out of the park. But at the same time, I think there would be a lot of insecurity and fear as a director directing someone of that caliber. So in your project, was there that kind of fear in directing these actors who are more well-established? Well, I think.
02:07:33
Speaker
To be completely honest, I think there was a period, especially with me and Francois, where both of us instinctively were trying to impress each other.
02:07:48
Speaker
before the shoot. I don't know what he found in me or whatever what he thought that I am as a filmmaker. Maybe it was a script that he really liked or maybe it was just the way I speak about filmmaking and having an experience on big sets. It also helps you as a filmmaker too. He was really soft and sweet and polite and gentle and
02:08:17
Speaker
very generous with his time and I as well was very respectful to whatever he was about to say so it was a lot of mutual respect and kind of an admiration to the craft of one another which when we actually arrived on set was kind of deemed down because of the stress of the production
02:08:42
Speaker
So that trust and that kind of an intimacy you build with your cast is crucial to getting you out by the color of a deep will.
02:09:00
Speaker
Yeah, because that's where you're going to get shooting. You know, you will 100% you will end up somewhere in the deep water and you would need whatever you build up with that actor to bring you out. You know, and if you do not have that.
02:09:22
Speaker
you're going to run into problems. And you're going to run into this insecurity. And whenever the actor is not completely happy with their performance, but you have to move on, it's going to affect their next scene. It's going to affect their next take. And it's going to affect you because how do I talk to this actor after whatever happened? And you have to be professional.
02:09:46
Speaker
And, and, and moving on and whatever you built before with them helps enormously because you always kind of like, even not thinking about it consciously, you also unconsciously feel warmth to that person and that stays. So something I guess I'm curious, go ahead, Stephen. So then as a director, because I've noticed this with myself when I'm dealing with people who I, are actors who I see as
02:10:15
Speaker
more experienced and maybe that I have to prove to them that I am the director and I'm leading this project. Sometimes I get it in myself that I need to exhibit kind of that tough love aspect where it's like, you know what, give me another take, give me another take. And I will push them to give me more takes than they're comfortable with. And sometimes I'm doing that
02:10:42
Speaker
Not necessarily to establish the who's the daddy out of dominance in a sense. Yeah. Well, just to show them that like, Hey, I know you're, you're very capable. I know you're a very talented actor. That's why I cast you in this, but I also need you to respect me as a director. And maybe I'm not, especially at my level, I'm not a director who's been in theater. I don't necessarily know how to work with actors.
02:11:09
Speaker
but I know the scope of my film and I need you to operate within those parameters of that because that's the only way we're gonna get to...
02:11:21
Speaker
what I envision. Well, sometimes even just saying this for what you said right now in pre-production, when you just talking to your characters and when you have the talks of like the, I don't know, table reads, rehearsals and stuff, just saying it out loud sometimes helps. So just be honest then instead of trying to show it through, you know, the macho man like, give me another take.
02:11:48
Speaker
Uh, it depends though. I cannot like give you like a standardized thing because actors are gentle beings. Yeah, but more than respect to what you've gone through in your experiences. I feel like, I feel like, you know, and being a script, you know, a lot of big sets.
02:12:06
Speaker
but actors pick up much more on stuff that is happening with the director, with other crew, and with other actors, rather than director to actor interaction.
02:12:19
Speaker
They kind of like turn the blind eye on whatever director says to them because whatever happens in their mind and in their psyche, the moment the director lays their eyes on them, they won. So they stop thinking like a dog, right? So they got the treat and that's it.
02:12:40
Speaker
They started, they got the attention. And I'm fascinated with actors. I admired them. There's this puzzle that I'm trying to work through. And even though I had the theater experience, I have.
02:12:58
Speaker
I had no idea how to work with actors and what to do, rather than just going by instinct of people or people skills. That is definitely an area that I have must improve in going forward, will improve and will work and probably take a couple of acting classes just to be more free with the lingo and whatever, with the methods and stuff. But again,
02:13:26
Speaker
The respect you gain from the actor, I think the fastest way to it is to show them that you were in charge in the whole environment. Rather than in your personal relationship with that actor. Because if you know what you're doing and what you want and what your vision is,
02:13:55
Speaker
you will gain respect naturally. Because it's such a rare thing. Yeah, something I want to touch on maybe on a more technical level, where you guys did you have an assistant editor or editor that was sending you dailies so that at the end of your at the end of your days, you could see like, okay, the actors are because I always feel like it's completely different, like after everything's done and said, and you're seeing the shots later.
02:14:21
Speaker
Were you seeing dailies? Was that changing? Was that affecting how you were directing or the course corrections for acting or anything like that? Well, the thing is that I knew that I would not have a bandwidth to do dailies going in. So I just let it go. I didn't do dailies. I didn't watch the footage at the end of the night that drop and I scheduled it the way that I would have
02:14:50
Speaker
My first day is all non-dialogue scenes and there was plenty, 80% of the film is with one actress and no dialogue. The second day was all the dialogue scenes, which was the fight scene, the initial dinner scene, all in one kitchen. And that's how the script was written. I was block shooting
02:15:18
Speaker
In the script, I was like, okay, kitchen scenes, I'll shoot them one day, so I better do it night and day so I can spread it out through the day. And then when I was writing the non-dialect scenes, I always played with day and night just because I knew that that's how I'm going to schedule the shoot and stuff. And the third day was the shoot with our supermodel, who was only available for one day. So I had to accommodate all her scenes.
02:15:42
Speaker
So it happened so that all of the heavy dialogue and performance stuff happened on day two. So it's not like I could go at the end of day two and adjust because on day three there's nothing to shoot with those actors right because we already completed it so it didn't make sense for me to do dailies or or even like watch it then you know and I didn't want it to influence my decisions or make me
02:16:09
Speaker
frustratedly get into my head because there was not enough time. If it's a feature film, I can definitely imagine myself looking at the dailies and kind of walking through because there is definitely a transition of the actor and emotional state and stuff. But with a short film for three days, it just didn't make sense. So let me ask you this as a director because I noticed... My dogs are fighting, sorry. I
Editing and Visual Storytelling
02:16:35
Speaker
noticed when...
02:16:37
Speaker
I directed and I noticed from you talking about like the DP, the cinematography and everything. So when you're directing, are you just strictly focused on what your actors are giving and not so much concerned about how the camera angle's looking, how the lighting's looking and all of that? No, it's the opposite, man. Oh, really? Yes, I'm an extremely visual filmmaker. Okay.
02:17:04
Speaker
And it comes from my scripts as well. Whatever is there for the dialogue scenes is existing there to drive the story forward. Because you have to have dialogue and people talking. If I would be able to tell a story without dialogue, I'll probably do that.
02:17:28
Speaker
It's not so much that I spend time on set thinking about camera moves and stuff. It's mostly tweaking because we've spent so much time in prep, like two weeks just shot listing and coming up with the concept of the shot and the camera move and why is that camera move in there and how do we complement it with another. It was so prepped and so thought through that on set it only like, okay, camera's there, let's tweak.
02:17:55
Speaker
Right. And again, I had enormous privilege of being in that apartment. So even though I didn't have a cast with me or the DP with me, I already found that place for that camera, for that particular shot. And I knew it. And it was the matter of just putting it there and lighting the scene. The composition was thought through well pre-shoot.
02:18:21
Speaker
I composed all the shots, everything had some kind of a story behind it. Even on Reddit, there was a couple of people who came up with this series and I was amazed because I would never dream that someone would pick it up. But I would spend a lot of time with some kind of like a kabbalistic, symbolic,
02:18:42
Speaker
secret meanings of the composition, everyone who's on the left means something more, something everyone who's on the right means something. It's like a lot of artwork in the film actually means something and sometimes you get to see it, sometimes you get a peek and most of the time you just glaze off it and don't notice those things, but they're present.
02:19:06
Speaker
and I made sure they are, and I spent time with this, and my ID hated me for that, because I would shoot 10 takes of just a person waking up, opening her eyes, and see it was perfect, you know? And then it paid off. I understand. And I was going to say, for me,
02:19:26
Speaker
I know a lot about photography and lighting. So once I have the shot figured out in my head, I already kind of trust in what's going to be delivered. So when I am watching the performance given by the actors, I willingly and try to not look at what's being, what the camera is filming because I don't want to be
02:19:51
Speaker
informed by that, I just want to see the performance. And then what I've noticed sometimes is that what I thought was a good take at the time and when I was ready to be like, okay, let's move on versus what then the camera saw can be very different. So.
02:20:12
Speaker
from what you've seen with like Esther's Choice, were there a lot of takes that you thought were good when you saw them at the time? And then when you looked at the editing room, you kind of discovered like, oh, hey, this take that I thought maybe was bad, was way better, or maybe this take that I thought was really good at the time is maybe the worst. Did you kind of encounter any of that at all? Well, you know, now that I think about it, I don't think even on set
02:20:42
Speaker
I even told my script supervisor which takes the mark. Okay. Yeah. Cause on our set, we don't have a script supervisor so we don't do that.
02:20:52
Speaker
Yeah, but usually when you have a script supervisor, you tell them what you want to go with. You say, circle, take, circle and take. So I didn't even tell her that it made me a couple of times. A couple of times I would say, let's circle that, I like that. And then my editor definitely just assembled it by the script and he used his
02:21:14
Speaker
his own judgment performance wise and I was not that involved in that decision making process. I allowed myself to be surprised. So whenever I didn't like performance wise when he delivered Michael Pizano delivered his first cut, I was like, can we look at something else? Is there something else I feel like
02:21:41
Speaker
There was something and I wouldn't even like look at my notes or my script supervisor's notes. I'll be like we're trying to get back to that moment. Yeah, just kind of rediscover it. And trying to get back to my script. Just discover it. And be like what was I trying to say or achieve with that particular line that I don't feel like reads now. Right, okay. And I will be like is there something Mikey there
02:22:11
Speaker
that we can use that will be more like this and he would find it and sometimes he won't and you gotta let go and move on. I didn't spend that much time with the editing and tweaking it just all like kind of fell together and I was happy enough and a lot of it is just especially the directing actors
02:22:36
Speaker
You know, there's like a saying that your directing is in your cast, right? I can agree with that. Yeah, that's like 80% of your job. Because when you have the actor who knows what they're supposed to do and who knows the character, you don't have to direct them. You just have to put the camera on. Not that much, yeah. Yeah, not that much. I mean, tweaks for sure, but not like, you know, rediscover the whole new thing on set. There's no time for that.
02:23:04
Speaker
So then I want to, can I get into trust a little bit because you were talking about picking these shots and then marking them down with the script supervisor. So how much trust do you give into your editor, right? Because the editor is a final person who has a say on what your project's going to look like. So how much faith do you have in that person to select
02:23:33
Speaker
the right shots and then to put them together. Well, zero. Oh, okay, yeah. Not in that, not in the bad way, of course, but Mike was supposed to come on as a assistant editor and I didn't know if I would be editing the final thing and stuff, but he did such a great job that I invited him to be like the full-on editor of the whole thing.
02:24:02
Speaker
But the thing is that it was not so much, and I'm really sorry I couldn't give you more freedom, but there was nothing to play with basically because as a script supervisor who has an experience in TV when they overshoot the hell out of scenes to the point that actors could not feel anything, I know that overshooting kills
02:24:29
Speaker
And I try as a filmmaker, and I'm going to give you my secret right now. Probably won't be hired for that in TV, but I would never give the post-production more than is needed.
02:24:45
Speaker
Because if you give them a shot, if you give them additional take, those fuckers going to use it. It's going to mud the water. It's going to dilute your vision and take away from you, from your voice as a filmmaker. Unless you're editing yourself.
02:25:07
Speaker
When you're interesting someone else and the bigger you get, the more chances is that you will have someone else editing your project. Thank God that they will use it and try to play with it. So what happened with Esther is that I got all the shots I planned to in all the ways I want to, and it was just a matter of assembly.
02:25:33
Speaker
It just was a matter of putting it all together and I would just, maybe it was like 7-8 cuts for us, 7-8 passes with Michael, it was very easy. I would just give him a note here and there, it's like, you know, I would like to stay on her here longer or
02:25:54
Speaker
you know one of the first notes I gave him were continuity notes basically I would just say you know I think this is a better cutaway I think the moment of her like putting the blinds up let's take it a little further two seconds in and I think it would that would be good there was some playing around with some shots that were not shot in the same way were not planned to but they did work for the
02:26:17
Speaker
for the cutaways or for the pacing, like taking completely like five seconds out of the sequence and no one would even notice, but it made the pacing of the scene much better. So there was a lot of pacing notes. You know, there was not so much of like performance takes notes or let's use this shot. It was never like this. And I think Mikey knew that going in because he just read the script and the script was like screaming at you, the coverage.
02:26:47
Speaker
you know just like because that's the secret way in when you write in a script is approaching it as what does the camera see
02:27:01
Speaker
If you have that in mind, when you write every word on your script, it's going to make your script much better because what does the camera see? Hands open the door. Instead of saying Sandra opens the door, which is super bland, no one cares, anyone could write that. If you say
Music and Sound Design in Film
02:27:26
Speaker
a manicured hand,
02:27:28
Speaker
quietly opens the door. That's a shot. You imply probably a close-up.
02:27:37
Speaker
Right? Or if you write, I don't know, if you want a dolly shot and you do not want to put like a dolly camera moves over her while she walks, blah, blah, blah. Find some way emotionally to describe that for a person who reads it to be like, oh, there is a moon, there is a moon to it.
02:27:59
Speaker
So like a wind picks up her dress while she walks in or just like we see her from the back. Sometimes I use we see or we realize in my script as long as it adds to the vision or kind of gets the point across of what kind of mood I am in.
02:28:19
Speaker
nice to put in camera moves into your script but but this way you're kind of faking it you're like you're sneaking it in there right like you're giving because like as a writer you're you're not the dp you're not the director you don't get to be like yeah because like i always tell like i'm like steven i always talk about this right like when i write scripts i never want to like over use adjectives like it doesn't have to be a yellow truck or it doesn't have to be
02:28:42
Speaker
Like, yeah, right. It's like if they don't have a yellow truck, shit, they're fucked, I guess. Like, no, like, let's just give them, you know, like you have to give them that freedom to move. But I like what you're saying there where it's like, OK, but if you do have an idea to have a dolly, you can use the language to suggest it. Yeah.
02:29:01
Speaker
I wanted to get into more post-talk with you, I guess. How did you go about, did you find a composer? Did you have a composer in mind, coloring, stuff like that? Was that all planned out in pre-production or was that found later? Well, the music is extremely important for the film as the story is
02:29:22
Speaker
Yeah, the story is about a composer who loses for inspiration. So I had to have the piece, the main theme piece, before I would start shooting. So I was taking piano lessons at the time and I just gave a shot to my
02:29:39
Speaker
piano teacher and he wrote this beautiful piece that is actually in the teaser as well. And that is the piece that Esther comes up. Thank you. Thank you. It's really great. He did an amazing job. It's very haunting. It stays with you. Yes. Yes. And it's kind of like the whole film is in that team. And, you know, it informed the action of the actress to hand double knew what to play. And this is the piece she comes up with at the end of the film.
02:30:09
Speaker
You know, having overcome kind of like the struggle and stuff. Damn, I need to see it. I can't wait. I can't wait. But at what cost? Always selling the film, right?
02:30:28
Speaker
So, you know, so the piece was written before we started shooting. Okay. And actually my hand double, who is my good friend from Moscow, who ended up in New York, by the way of luck, she's a Harvard graduate business rock star, absolute badass Russian woman, but she has this
02:30:53
Speaker
I guess amazing talent and skill of playing a piano or almost like a professional pianist. So there was not even a question for me to back her to come in and help me out and be at the hand double. So she loved the process of being on set so much that she asked me to give her a chance to write the score.
02:31:13
Speaker
And that is a completely new thing. She never wrote a score in her life. She didn't have tools. She didn't know the technical part of it. And I was like, you know, sometimes you got to give the chance to the person who has no clue because you know that that thing that they understand that they have no clue will drive them a little more forward than anyone else with the skill and experience.
02:31:39
Speaker
Right. So I definitely said, yes, of course. But it took a while. Like the longest time was this. So what about like coloring? Was there ever because I was watching it and I was like, was there ever a chance where you were thinking black and white? No. Wasn't pertinent to the story. That's only you, buddy.
02:32:01
Speaker
Black and white for sure. I'm pitching the music video right now, it's all black and white. But the thing is that it has to be pertinent to the story. I cannot just do things just because they're beautiful, even though some people might think that. But the coloring of it, we colored as much on set as we could. The whole conversation about production design and how it was
02:32:27
Speaker
completely influenced by whatever palette we came up with with Guillermo and costumes as well. The costumes mean something, the colors and the moves and you know she stays in blue color and the red has a meaning and his greens have a meaning and the composition like he represents this earthy thing, she represents this stuck thing, there's a fridge on her side, there's like a tree on his side, everything.
02:32:53
Speaker
completed the look on set. Because I didn't know at that time who's going to color it, if anyone's going to color it, what I'm going to do with it. So as much as we could, we colored on set. And the raw footage looked amazing. There was a teaser that I cut back in last December when I was shopping around the film.
02:33:21
Speaker
It was completely done from raw footage, and no one would say. And now there's a new teaser with color footage. That's why I actually noted it in all my social stuff, like, you know, now it's color. And it's happened so again because I'm so lucky and fortunate to be working
02:33:39
Speaker
constantly on sets and being exposed to all this industry giants and greats. It happened so that Steven Bodner, who colored True Detective, Marvel's Mrs. Meisel, Maniac and Evil, and all the modern love and stuff, he took on my little film and he colored it. It took two easy passes.
02:34:03
Speaker
But, you know, it's like he he liked the idea of the project, I think, and then the stills that I've sent him and what I said to him about our ambitions and ideas we had with Guillermo of like having two logs day and night, what they represent, why they're there, what's the theme, what's the mood and concept behind it. And I definitely didn't give him any technical parts. You know, like I sent him a PDF Guillermo came up with for the for a little bit of a technical stuff for the like
02:34:33
Speaker
this is a little desaturated this is more contrasty let's fix that a little bit in post for the colors too saturated for the night so there was a little notes for that but steven basically just took it and run with it and then i had an idea after his first pass i was like you know what this is not
02:34:52
Speaker
working as I expected, let's do this. And that was a new idea, actually, that I didn't have going forward. So talking about prep is like, how much can you prep? Sometimes you have to make decisions based on the results going forward. So I told him about this idea. He seemed to like it. He applied it and it worked. There's definitely someone who is attentive enough
02:35:19
Speaker
and they would watch the film and see the trick that they came up with and be like, oh, I just saw that. Did you notice that? So we definitely added the little menu there. So that's how the color came up. I'm like, I need to see this damn movie now. We're talking about it so much. I'm like, well, October 15th. Oh, there you go. Too far away, man. I need it.
02:35:45
Speaker
So as a director, what are some of the most important aspects you focused on within this film? For instance, was it the foley? Was it the sound mix? Was it the score? Was it the lighting, the DP, the acting? Like what were the main focuses for this? In the pre-production, it was composition and cinematography. Okay.
02:36:10
Speaker
because it was pertinent to the story. Because just by reading the script, someone would give me the script and it was not my script. I would just look at having like, gosh, there's three dialogue scenes in this.
02:36:25
Speaker
And all other 15 pages of, not 15, 10 pages of it is silent. It's just like something happening to the character. I'd be like, okay, I got to focus on the visuals of this one. And make it like a poetic experience, cinematic kind of visual storytelling when one frame is worth a thousand words. So that was definitely a huge thing in everything that I put my heart and energy and intellect to
02:36:55
Speaker
was trying to find those frames, trying to tell a story without people blabbing in the screen, expressing themselves and telling me that story. It's the show don't tell 100% for this film. And in post-production sound design, 100% how sound design was all that I was thinking of, not the edit, edit work, the sound design and the scoring was extremely important. I spent a lot of time with it and I had actually
02:37:24
Speaker
A very accomplished sound mixer and sound designer. And what is it? Sound designer. It's not a mixer. Sound mixer is a person on set. The editor? The sound editor? Sound editor. And I had this amazing, experienced sound editor and designer.
02:37:45
Speaker
come on board and actually do a great job with the sound and he was able to bring, he was able to understand what I'm
02:37:56
Speaker
thinking about and what's the story about, as he is a composer himself. So he was a fun little project for him to take on too. He was like, that is so interesting. That's an interesting choice and stuff. I feel like he had fun working on it and it definitely shows on the final project too, that he spent enough time with it and he put some energy in it. It's not just like putting a little beats and pads and stuff around, just doing enhancing sound.
02:38:24
Speaker
if there was definitely a storytelling part in it you know and and it wasn't a script as well you know there's uh being a russian or not i don't know what influenced that but i really wanted to play a Pavlovian dog trick on my audience
02:38:40
Speaker
with one particular sound. I won't tell you what that sound is, but at some point in the film, the audience, and I know they are because I've been getting this note all the time, they're having a visceral experience with that sound. Interesting. What happens is that particular sound is introduced very early on in the film.
02:39:06
Speaker
And it happens ever so slightly, the mood of the character and kind of the emotional state of the film changes, and there is the sound introduced. So basically, the Pavlovian experience, everyone there is a bell, the dog salivates because they expect a treat. Oh, so we're going to salivate. You hear the sound?
02:39:28
Speaker
I don't know what you're going to do, but you're going to have some kind of a kind of a response, a physical response. I'm not kidding you.
02:39:40
Speaker
So he was really excited about that idea, and finding the right sound for that particular sound took a while too. Like we listened to many little tracks, trying to find that sound, and it was in the script. It was all in caps in the script. Sound, emotion, sound, emotion. So at some point, at some point in the script, when you read that, you kind of hear it too. But you have to find life to it as well.
02:40:06
Speaker
yes yes yes it has to be motivated and stuff and it really comes on to have a completely different meaning when it's like a very hopeful kind of like oh the new beginnings kind of thing and that is that is the notification sound of that and then at the end it's just like oh my god that's the end you know
02:40:28
Speaker
So I was really, really excited about figuring that sound out and kind of leading to that. So it definitely was, there was a lot of money and a lot of time spent on it. So I'm really excited
Anticipating Film Release and Audience Reaction
02:40:43
Speaker
about it. Oh yeah. I mean, honestly, literally like Tom said to reiterate, just hearing you talk about this is getting me more excited about watching the film.
02:40:54
Speaker
especially with your commentary alongside it to kind of understand the deeper processes of the filmmaking aspect and how that informed what we're going to see when the movie is released. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, I can't wait. Can't wait to share it with the world. It sounds so exciting. It sounds so exciting. And we're so happy. Thank you.
02:41:21
Speaker
I mean, you know, you shared this on Reddit, you sent out that teaser and immediately when I saw that, I was like, okay, this is someone worth messaging because it's special. I'm glad you did. I'm having so much fun just talking about it. Yeah, you could just see how special it was, you know, and from what you're telling us and who you got together on this project, it's like, yeah, this is really something special and unique that
02:41:50
Speaker
you don't get to see often. Thank you, thank you. Can you imagine it just happened so to be written on my lap traveling at MTA in New York City at 5 a.m. and 9 p.m. at night? I just wrote it on my phone and then it all came about. That's the ultimate goal. Yeah, that's like the most beautiful thing, honestly. It's just sparks of inspiration.
02:42:14
Speaker
It's hard to imagine, but listening to you talk and then hearing about your life story and all of your accomplishments, it's kind of not that hard to imagine. Yeah, really. I mean, you seem like a very, you put me in a shame. God damn it. I hate knowing people like you exist out there because like, shit, this is what we got to go up against. God damn it.
02:42:39
Speaker
You can follow. We'll be following. We're waiting for the bell to ring. So where can people find Esther's choice? When is it supposed to release and where can they find it?
02:42:56
Speaker
Well, it is having its New York premiere at Chelsea Film Festival that is running online this year from October 15 to October 19. So if you go to Chelsea Film Festival website or Film Festival Plus website as well, the platform they're running on, you should be able to get a free ticket with a donation as low as like $1 to the CFF.
02:43:26
Speaker
Okay, we're gonna get a ticket to the screening, which is just gonna be available for the duration of the festival. Watch it, vote for it, let me know what you think. I really want to stir the pot and start a conversation because that's not the film that has a message.
02:43:45
Speaker
or has a clear view, director's view, or gaze. I never put whatever I think in it. I really want to hear what other people think. So with Gage, it is also having a more traditional
02:44:03
Speaker
a premiere at LAFM, which is somewhere on the West Coast, or wherever else, Hollywood, whatever. We're setting the date right now, but most probably going to be on October 15th at 3pm Eastern Time, trying to wrangle my cast right now, and that thing is going to be an event.
02:44:25
Speaker
that is run on this platform which is a startup that works with paramount and all other big festivals that is gonna be run as a usual festival in a way that you will have a screening you will have a cast and filmmaker present and people will be able to join into q&a and if you do need the moderators
02:44:44
Speaker
Yeah, and I do need those moderators right now to actually sit and ask the questions. We don't charge money. We'll ask whatever you want us to. We do the shit for free.
02:44:58
Speaker
And on LAFM, on their website, you will be able to find all the information on how to enter the platform, how to get a ticket. I believe the ticket for a short show was like $4.99. So instead of a latte, get a ticket. Yeah, yeah. And we'll have links to all this in the show notes, everyone.
02:45:20
Speaker
Oh, for sure. Perfect. I think by that time we will set up the real date for the screening and Q&A, which will be fun, I think. I will try to bring my cast for Emma and Mary and Guillermo, my DP, actually trying to come on. So that's going to be fun to talk with them as well. I think their perspective is somewhat interesting too. Of course, yeah.
02:45:43
Speaker
Oh, I got a thousand more questions, but we could go for hours and hours. Yeah. I mean, like I said, we could do this for eight hours because they're still like about your upbringing and rut. Like, I just I could talk to. But so I feel the same. Oh, I mean, we were definitely going to have to do this again.
02:46:00
Speaker
Yes, if you're willing to. Where can people reach out and find you if they want to follow? Or if you want them to. Social media, if you want them to. Oh, I so want them to. That would make me so happy.
02:46:19
Speaker
I'm super serious about my social media because that's what contributed to my whole career. I'm starting from poetry and to now I met you guys on Reddit. You know what I mean? The main thing that I'm very active on and very serious on is Instagram.
02:46:37
Speaker
Let's add Alia Azamat with a double A. If you open that Instagram, you will have the links to Esther's Choice and to Misha, the documentary that is actually in Festival Circuit right now that I co-rolled and directed atmosphere scenes for.
02:46:52
Speaker
So if you want to check out more of a documentary feature work of mine, you can always check out the doc, too. And
Follow Alia's Work on Social Media
02:47:02
Speaker
I'm really excited about its release next year. And there's Instagram for a search choice, and I'm a person on Facebook and Twitter, which is just existing now since I'm not political anymore, just existing now for shameless promotion. Oh, this is a great time to be political, though.
02:47:21
Speaker
Instagram is the best thing to contact me or reach out or find out more about myself. And we'll put links up to that.