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Black Mask (1996)
302 Plays2 years ago
In what may be the shortest turnaround for a return guest, author Brad Mengel is back to talk about another B superhero movie with "black" in the title—1996's Black Mask, starring Jet Li!
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
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This episode is brought to you by BlendJet. Use my special link, zen.ai/supercinemapod12, to save 12% at blendjet.com. The discount will be applied at checkout!
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Transcript
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Superhero Cinephiles Podcast Introduction
00:01:53
Speaker
Seven cops dead. And a lot more to come. Unless you stop these people now, the bloodshed will never end. Okay, I'll play. You know all the answers. Who are these friends of yours? No, not friends. They're more like fandoms. We need to be put out of the misery. These were my cops here. Following my orders when they died.
00:02:21
Speaker
I can't stand here listening to you go on pontificating. See, those men of mine came this close to dying for a reason. Then you let the girl go free. They died for nothing, all because you interfered. Let me live with that. These people are stealing your crime watch files. This is a virus, uploaded into their computers.
00:02:52
Speaker
I don't know what you're talking about. I'm tired of this shit anyway. You wanna put the mask on before we start? You'll just be wasting your time, my friend. It's pointless. You arrogant little prick!
00:03:10
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And probably the quickest turnaround for a returning guest outside of ones where we've actually recorded multiple episodes on the same day is Brad Mengele. Brad, how you doing today? I'm good, thanks. Good, good. So like I said, it's only been a few days since we last recorded. I'm not sure if you've got anything new that's grabbing your interest in the past two days.
Interest in The Raven Comic
00:03:39
Speaker
Well, actually, I've just been exploring an Australian comic book character called The Raven. Oh, OK. He came out for 10 issues back in the 50s, late 50s, early 60s. So he's a fun character. He is a lord who is falsely accused of committing a crime, stealing some stuff framed by his brother. A goat sets into jail, escapes from jail and ends up adopting the disguise of The Raven and fighting crime.
00:04:09
Speaker
Okay, cool. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking of pitching a story to an Australian publisher. Oh, nice. Yeah. So is this a is this a public domain character, then? No, no, it's licensed. So I know who has has the license, they've published a few, a couple of new stories with the character. So I know them. And I know a couple of people who have, who've worked for that company. So
00:04:35
Speaker
Okay, cool. And the other thing is, yeah, and another thing is a new Phantom comic just came out here. And my likeness turned up in it. Really? Yeah. Is that just a coincidence or somebody working on it? I know actually know the artist Paul Mason and he he yeah, so I was just chatting to him one night there. He says, you know what, I've got a character I'm going to base him on you and I went
00:05:00
Speaker
I will, I will take that. The characters name Barry, Barry Mingle. He's a reporter. So like, I'll take that.
00:05:10
Speaker
Very cool, very cool. Anyway, so today we're just gonna jump into it because we don't have a whole lot of other stuff to get out of the way
Exploring Black Mask Film
00:05:17
Speaker
first. But today we're talking about a Black Mask or Ha Cop is the original Chinese title. It's 1996 Hong Kong movie made by Jet Li. And this was...
00:05:32
Speaker
I think this was like the first big movie that Jet Li had released in America. At least it's the first big one I remember because he was in Lethal Weapon 4 and that was kind of like his introduction to American audiences. And then not long after that, this one got a US release. Yeah. Yeah. And I should have opened up at the start. I'm probably going to mangle every single Chinese word that I say in this podcast. So I'll just apologize for that in the start.
00:05:59
Speaker
Fair enough. One thing that surprised me was it was actually based on a Chinese comic called Manhua.
00:06:08
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it's um, uh, i'm not sure exactly the pronounce yet, but man wan manga is obviously the japanese term Yeah, and then there's man wa wha I think for for korean manga. Yeah, and then the chinese one. It's like man man man hua or something like that. Yeah Yeah, i'm just like i'm sitting there i'm sitting there last night going there's no pronunciation guard for this
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. And yeah, these are they're basically Chinese language comics produced in China and Taiwan. Yeah. And yeah, there was only six issues from what I could find on the on the English language internet anyway. So yes, there's only six issues. You came out in 1992 and the guy who created it, Li Shi Tak
00:07:02
Speaker
is known as the godfather of indie comics in Hong Kong. Oh, really? That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And he had like a big art exhibition in Hong Kong a couple of years back where he actually showed an unused black mass cover. So do you have any familiarity with the comics beyond just doing some research on it? Yeah, there's like four interior pages on a Twitter couple of Twitter posts and this and the six the six the six covers.
00:07:32
Speaker
So yeah, I couldn't find any information. It could be the most faithful adaptation, or it could be the 1944 Captain America one, where everything's changed except for the suit and the fact that he's called Captain America. Right, right, right. Okay, yeah, so what was your history with this movie? I remember, I think I went to a music shop
00:08:02
Speaker
We had buy CDs and records back in the day. Ask your grandparents kids. And I think I just saw the cover and it was just this cover of a mask with like this corrugated look. And I was just like, what is this? And Jet Li and I said, well, that'll do it. That was enough for me. I grabbed it, I bought it, I watched it and
00:08:29
Speaker
I just had to remember remembering it being really, really, really brutal. And yeah, so I was a bit excited to watch it again because I enjoyed it the first time. But my wife doesn't share my fondness for brutal movies. So she was out last night. So I watched it.
00:08:50
Speaker
Yeah, I remember ads for this at the time when it came out. So like I remember that. And also the image on the US release, it comes from the climatic scene where they're fighting in the underground
00:09:04
Speaker
underground-ish tunnels. I can't remember exactly what it was, but there was him jumping and doing the splits against the wall. That was the iconic poster that was on the US DVD cover and also lots of US comic ads. They used that back at the time. So I've seen this around a lot. Yeah, but he wasn't even wearing the mask. He wasn't even wearing the mask in that picture.
00:09:28
Speaker
I was thinking the exact same thing last night. I'm like, well, he's not even wearing the mask in that. It's weird because it's such a big part of the of the movie. But so I thought that was it was an interesting choice to choose that as the as the advertising image, as opposed to, like you said, the one on some of the international releases, they had the close up of the mask itself where it has that kind of corrugated look to it.
00:09:51
Speaker
But yeah, I didn't see it at the time. And in fact, I wasn't even, I came a little bit late to being a fan of Jet Li. It wasn't like, I'd seen him in, I think I'd seen him in Lethal Weapon 4. But I was, you know, there's so many people in that movie, it was, you know, even though he was good in it, it was tough to find like a standout type thing. Mostly I just thought, oh, he's a pretty cool villain. But then,
00:10:19
Speaker
It was the, I think it was Luke Besson who did a movie with him called Kiss of the Dragon, which came out probably like a year or two after this, like 1997, 98 or something like that. And I remember seeing that in the theater and that was amazing. Like after I saw that, I'm like, oh, this is actually really damn good.
00:10:37
Speaker
And then, you know, since then I've seen him in a lot of other stuff, obviously. And I think he's also a better actor than, you know, you'd probably expect from someone who's primarily a martial artist. Like you see him in that first Expendables movie. He's got a great talent for humor in that. Like some of the funniest lines in that movie are from him when he's talking about why he needs to get a raise and everything.
00:11:00
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the other one I thought was funny was, uh, he did one with Jackie Chan, forbidden kingdom. Oh, the forbidden kingdom. Yeah. I remember a lot of people didn't like
Critiques on US Version of Black Mask
00:11:09
Speaker
that, but I thought it was very entertaining. Yeah. I quite enjoyed it. There was sort of this bit of a shock. Like, hang on. You've got Jet Li playing the monkey King and not Jackie Chan. That sort of was a bit of a disconnect, but he did a really good job. Yeah. So it's just one of those things to go. Jackie Chan, like.
00:11:29
Speaker
Why did you fight? Why did you put him in there? Yeah. Also, there was a war, the movie that did with Jason Statham, which again, I know a lot of people didn't really like it, but I thought it was pretty enjoyable. Yeah. And so I saw it when I had eventually found this, it was like years later, like maybe like 10 years later, at least. And I found it in a used DVD shop and picked it up and watched it. And
00:11:58
Speaker
And unfortunately, I didn't realize this when I picked it up at the time, but there are multiple versions of this movie. Yes. So which version did you, which were, I should probably say, which versions have you watched of this movie?
00:12:12
Speaker
Well, just the one I own, which is, I'm from my research, the Hong Kong version, I think. Sort of looking at the scene descriptions, like Jet Li's character's name is, where am I? Chu-Chik or something like that. Chu-Chik, yeah. Because I've got Chu Hark down there and I'm thinking, no, that's not right, that's the producer.
00:12:36
Speaker
Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Chew chick. So that sort of led me to think it's the Hong Kong version. And then also there's a couple of scenes that there's a few scenes that are slightly longer in each version. And looks from what I read that it was the Hong Kong version, which makes sense because we're fairly close to Hong Kong. Right. So yours was also the the one that was in Cantonese then I'm guessing.
00:12:59
Speaker
Yeah, but it was dubbed into English. Oh, so you did have a dubbed version? I had a dubbed version. Yeah. OK. OK. OK. So that's interesting because the US release, they they did a few weird things with it. First off, they did an English dub on it, which was I'll talk about the dub. The dub is terrible. It's just god awful voice acting on it. I mean, it's very much like the kind of bad dubs on the old Bruce Lee movies. It's so bad. They were you could tell they weren't even trying with it.
00:13:28
Speaker
It's also the US version is also missing about 10 minutes were cut out of it and the the opening sequence and the credits were were edited a little bit or replaced in some cases. And
00:13:51
Speaker
Not only did they replace the dialogue, but the US also did this very weird thing where they replaced the entire soundtrack in the movie. So it's not any of the original music used in the Hong Kong version, but instead they replaced it with this very weird hip-hop soundtrack.
00:14:11
Speaker
and it's just it's very disjointed it completely breaks up the flow of the movie they've got these weird record scratches in odd places and it's just the whole thing just it's just a very bizarre experience uh watching it and it it's very distracting too like and i'm not sure
00:14:29
Speaker
why they did that. I'm not sure when this movie came out in the US but I know he was in Romeo Must Die and I know Romeo Must Die was a little bit more hip-hop influenced and plus. Yeah well I think it was about 99 from what I can from what I've read that it came at the US edition came out yeah.
00:14:47
Speaker
that sound, I'm not sure, I'm not 100% certain on the dates, but that sounds about the same time as when Romeo must die, I believe. So that would make sense because that was the one he did with, with Aaliyah. I think that was her last movie. Yeah. Wait, no, I'm sorry. That wasn't her last movie. It was Queen of the Damned, that was her last one. But yeah, I mean, it's, it was just very disjointed and
00:15:13
Speaker
Well, let's talk about it. How did you feel rewatching this movie last night? What were some things that kind of jumped out at you? Well, one of the things that jumped out to me was what they did to make him a super soldier was effectively they disconnected all his nerves, his nervous system, very much similar to Dark Man. I was going to say the same thing, yeah. Yeah. So in my mental headcanon,
00:15:41
Speaker
It's in the same universe as Darkwing. But they also did like, they sort of went, oh, yeah, all these guys went crazy with the emotions. So we'll remove their emotions as well. But yeah, I said, the 701 Squadron was, you know, it was a really, it was a niche. I liked that idea of, yeah, this whole rogue faction. And the one guy said, no, no, no, I'm not going to do that. But I did notice that a lot of the characters seem to pick up the idiot ball really quickly.
00:16:09
Speaker
Like the last drug lord in all of Hong Kong. Yeah, the submissive just totally turned up. What could possibly go wrong? And I'm under attack so I'm going to have sex with her because that's what you do.
00:16:26
Speaker
But also another thing I thought was weird about that whole plot because there's this whole, the whole reason that the 701 Squadron is going after these drug lords and they're trying to get all this information to hold these crime watch files for ransom. I mean, it's like the whole thing is they're dying and they want the government to give them a cure. So I mean, it's like if I'm in the government, just kind of like, well, just fucking wait it out.
00:16:52
Speaker
Well, that actually wasn't part of the
Plot Inconsistencies in Black Mask
00:16:55
Speaker
Hong Kong plot. It was just like, hey, we're going to just take over Hong Kong and get tons of money out of the Colombians and just run the drugs. I don't know why they made that change then. That doesn't make any sense because that makes so much more sense.
00:17:14
Speaker
Yeah. I think they also changed the origin for how they got their invulnerability. It was like a super soldier serum or something. Yeah, it was some sort of like super soldier type product.
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah, and it just says that it was this extortion thing they were trying to do. But again, I don't know why they put that into the US version then, if that wasn't in the original, because that just doesn't make any sense. No, yeah, like I said, give us a cue up, because we're going to die in six months. Yeah, just fucking wait there. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, what's the other one? Oh, yeah, at the hospital. Yeah, an ambulance just pulls up and they go,
00:18:05
Speaker
Oh, yeah, there's a there's a guy who's had an accident. It's like, why isn't the hospital closed if you've got it? You know, locked down and security and you just go, sorry, guys, you've got to go to another hospital. Don't care. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of like weird logic things in this movie. And, you know, I it's hard for me to judge the performances because, again, I'm watching the US version, which has this incredibly awful dub and it's like,
00:18:34
Speaker
You know, I mean, you can, I understand wanting to do a dub, but there's a good way and a bad way to do it. Like if you look at some of the, like the Studio Ghibli films, when they dub those into English, they get some really good dubs. They get some like, you know, high caliber actors to come in and read those lines and to really kind of, you know, commit to it. And just like this, it's like they,
00:19:00
Speaker
It's like, I don't even know if they hired real voice actors. It's like they hired like homeless people off the streets for an exchange for a sandwich or something, because it's just so bad. It is the worst reading I have ever heard in a movie. Oh, that's bad.
00:19:16
Speaker
And the Hong Kong, the Hong Kong English dub is really good, I enjoyed. And I'm not sure if like everyone involved spoke English and they did their own lines or, you know, I couldn't see any of the credits where they said English dub, bye, blah, blah, blah. Right. Yeah. They also didn't credit. The other thing I don't say is they didn't credit the comic.
00:19:40
Speaker
Oh really? I didn't notice that. Yeah, I was sort of watching those end credits and I went, hang on, they didn't mention the comic. Maybe they did it in the opening credits. I went back and re-watched those and I'm going, no. But it was a nice touch. They said in 1992, this experiment was done and that's when the comic came out. So I was like, that's a nice touch, I realised. But yeah, no mention of the comics whatsoever.
00:20:07
Speaker
Yeah, I'm looking at the, so some of these names actually kind of look a little familiar, like Corey Burton, I know I've heard his name before, John DiMaggio. So I don't know what the hell was going on with this. I think it was just like, maybe it was a Rush production or something, but it's just very, very bad acting in this.
Character Analysis in Black Mask
00:20:27
Speaker
Yeah, no. Yeah, I haven't seen the American version and I'm a little scared too, but a little part of me wants to see it now.
00:20:38
Speaker
I mean, even Tara Strong did a voice, apparently. It does. It just says voice doesn't say who she did. But but she had apparently did a voice of someone. Well, you've only got a 50 50 shot because there's only two women in this movie. Well, I think no, the other ones, I think they have different voices like Tracy has has a different has a different voice actress credited. I'm not sure if it might have been Kaylin. I'm not sure. Yeah.
00:21:06
Speaker
That's another thing that they do in the English dub is they change some of the names around. So in the case of Sweet Chick, Jet Li's character, his real name is Michael. And then the name he uses as like his alias when he's working at the library is Simon.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah, when you start in the other version, he's teacher, just known as teacher, and then becomes choice chick when he's working in in the library. Okay. And doesn't, I'm not sure if
00:21:46
Speaker
The Inspector, right? He's called Rock in the English dub. I'm not sure if that's also a nickname they use in the original. It is, yeah. Okay, okay. So yeah, Rock Shen, I think his name is. Rock Shek Waihole, yeah. Yeah, so he was kind of... I liked him as a character.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, he was that sort of tough. He was entertaining, yeah. That rough, tough cop like, yeah, just let them go to war, kill each other, I don't care. Yeah, and he was that tough guy, he liked to fight.
00:22:24
Speaker
Um, but yeah, this, and you know, the action too, like the actual, the fight scenes are great. And I think that's, that's the best thing about this movie is these fight scenes.
Action vs. Direction in Black Mask
00:22:34
Speaker
They're very well done. Yes. Yeah. But one of the things that really annoyed me is this director, Daniel Lee is just very incompetent behind the camera. Because I mean, I don't know if he had gotten someone different to do the fight scenes or if he just knows how to shoot fight scenes. But when it came to everything that wasn't a fight scene,
00:22:54
Speaker
It felt like he never, it felt like this is the first time he'd ever looked at a camera because it's just, he's using, he's tilting it. He's using handheld shots in places where it doesn't make sense. He's using these weird trackings and angles. And it was just very, it almost felt like a student film in some cases, watching some of these scenes. Yeah. I haven't looked at what he hasn't done a great deal. This is about the seventh film he'd made.
00:23:20
Speaker
I mean, after seven films, you think you'd at least know how to shoot a dialogue scene.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And also there's that weird bit when they were getting, what's her name? I can't think of her name. The member of the 701 squad out of jail. It's like, no, no, she's just totally tried to kill this drug lord, but we're going to let it go. It's all good. But, you know, they've got the dove flying. I'm like, what is this, a John Woo film? I wonder, I caught that too. I wonder if that was supposed to be a John Woo reference or something.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, what's going on here? Yeah, it's just like, I'm just randomly releasing a couple of doves and like, no, that doesn't make sense. That too was another example of just like these weird choices they make in this movie. Like they have
00:24:11
Speaker
I mean, I'll just call him Jet Li's character because it's easier than constantly remembering what his name is supposed to be. But he goes up to Rock and he says, he's like, oh, that woman you've got in custody, she's my friend and I want to help her. Can I talk to her? It's just like, I don't care how good friends you are with the cop, in what universe would you just release a suspect like that?
00:24:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that was, I thought it was a bit weird, like, yeah, you go, all right, come on in, you can go talk to her in the prison cell. But yeah, it's like, like, oh, yeah, we don't believe that she had anything to do with it. I'm like, really? But, you know, like I said, the idiot ball had to get handed over a few times to make the plot happen.
00:24:54
Speaker
Well, also when they when the commissioner accuses Rock of being the black mass, too, I'm like, Rock was there at the scene. Why do you think he it doesn't make any sense? Why? I mean, someone would have noticed that he was gone at that in that situation. Yeah, it's just that bit at the end of you guys. Oh, I'm just going to put on the hat and flail my coat around and like, OK, that looks cool as all get out. But why would you do that? Yeah.
00:25:23
Speaker
What were some other things that jumped out at you? Yeah, well definitely the fight scenes. Although, I noticed that there was a lot of cutting and editing, where I would have preferred, you know, Jet Li's a competent fighter. I'm not sure about the rest of the characters, the rest of the actors, but it's like, you know, just film the action. Just let me watch it. Don't cut it 20,000. Don't give me 20,000 cuts for each punch and each blow.
00:25:53
Speaker
But having said that, sometimes, you know, you had that bit where they cut off some guy's arm with a bit of glass. And he was like, dude, how did you do that? And the guy just keeps coming because he doesn't feel he doesn't care. Yeah, so that was, you know, I do remember the fight scenes being brutal, you know, people on fire and they just keep fighting and just like, oh, this is great.
00:26:18
Speaker
And that part makes sense. But yeah, like I said, the idiot ball came out a few too many times for my liking. And all this weird thing. I did like the scene at the start where they've gone to the loo and the guys are bailing up Jet Li. And he knows Rock's in the toilet and Rock comes out and you just see this grin on these faces like, oh, you guys, you don't know what you're in for.
00:26:49
Speaker
I love that, yeah, that's a great scene. And it also goes, especially when after Rock leaves at the end and then one of the guys gets up and he tries to go after Jet Li and then Jet Li just gives them the smackdown really quickly. Now that was also one of the changes. I think a lot of the US stuff, I think a lot of that 10 minutes was violence actually, was edited down because I see like a splatter of blood in that scene, but they don't show like anything very graphic.
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was a great deal of that. One of the scenes I thought might have been cut was he knocks some guy onto a bit later on, he knocks a guy onto some rebar and bends the rebar over his shoulders. So he comes out sort of through his chest and up under his shoulder blades and gently just sort of bends it over his shoulders. And the guy then stands up.
00:27:43
Speaker
And you're just going, oh my God, that would hurt so much. Yeah. Yeah. And he ends up getting trampled to death, trampled and his spine's broken.
Extended Scenes and Cultural References
00:27:54
Speaker
And the leader of the 701s just goes, hey, spine's broken. Drain all his blood, we'll be right. And Kelly goes, it was an honour to serve. And I'm like, dude, he's just sentenced to death.
00:28:07
Speaker
Yeah, there's also some other things. So in the Hong Kong Taiwanese versions, here's some of the stuff that's extended in there. So there's extended dialogue between Tracy and the other library staff when they're talking about what she would do with with Jet Li. There is the the scene with King Kao and
00:28:33
Speaker
and with a woman, it doesn't say Kaylin. He watches her dance, proceeds to have sex, and then excitedly shoots her with a water gun and smashes a light. Oh, I didn't see that part. Yeah, that was probably not in your version then, I guess. Yeah. King Cow saluting Inspector Shek, a member of the 701 squad impaling himself on metal sticks and spitting blood. Oh, yeah, yeah, that was in it.
00:28:59
Speaker
Yeah. Shots of bullet impacting when Black Mask shoots the 701 thugs to save Tracy. Shot of bullet hitting the arm of a thug. A 701 thug grabs two cops' arms and breaks them in the hospital sequence. Oh, yes. A thug smashes a cop's head with his hands. More footage of thug getting shot by police.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeklon's shoulder being shot with blood shooting out. That's Kaitlyn's character, if you're wondering from the English dub. Some more bullet hits on masked cops. Rock removes a severed thug's arm that had been clutching onto his shoulder. That one I think I saw, that one I remember seeing that because he like, he's like passing off and he's like, he's like, I'm gonna get a drink. And the other guy's like, I'm gonna go with you.
00:29:47
Speaker
Yeah. Black mask bleeding after being stabbed, some more footage of Tracy getting a blood bag and a shot of black mass blood after being stabbed with a, with a pipe tube. And also it says both of them maintained the green tinting of the film. So I'm guessing there was like kind of a green tint on a lot of it. I'm not sure. There was, there was a little bit of a tint now that I think about it. Yeah. Yeah. I had a question. Oh, sorry. Yeah.
00:30:14
Speaker
and
00:30:34
Speaker
So I guess that's at the beginning when he's going to the, when he like goes to the police station, then he goes to the hospital. I think that's what I'm talking about there. A few shots of black mass hideout and rock advising Kaylin to find Jet Li. Yeah, no, that wasn't, that last part wasn't in my scene from where I remember. Okay. So you said you had a question?
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah, so in the final scene, they're taking a photo of of the three of them. And it comes out like they're all in their their civilian clothes and it comes out. They're all in their superhero costumes, you know, jet jet lasers, the black mask and the other two in black coats and looking very much like The Matrix. Was that in your version or did they change that? There was kind of a picture, I think, but I don't remember them wearing masks. So maybe maybe I'm missing something there.
00:31:30
Speaker
Yeah, they take the photo, it's a Polaroid, they hold it up, and as it develops, you see them wearing their costumes and you're like, and they're just saying, what? No, I don't think that was in My Virgin. Yeah. It sort of hinted that, hey, we could do a sequel with these guys, and I was like, yes, please. Which is funny, because they did do a sequel, and then apparently that wasn't those guys.
00:31:54
Speaker
Yeah, no, no, they got Andy on who, when I can go, they did nothing, didn't know anything about martial arts. I'm sort of like, why would you do that? You know, it's the same, you know, it's the same as getting the guy for Iron Fist and just going, do you know any martial arts? No, you'll be fine. Just go in and make it. And they're like, why would you do that? So you saw the second one then? I have seen it. I saw it many years ago. I haven't watched it recently.
00:32:22
Speaker
I do recall I may have fallen asleep during it. Well, I mean, it felt very, very Americanized. They had a pro wrestling subplot plot. There was some genetic engineering that went on. Yeah, you had like Tobin Bell and Scott Adkins and Rob Van Dam. So I do have to rewatch it.
00:32:52
Speaker
And then there was a Quasi, well there was a movie that was intended to be a prequel that got changed at the last minute. What's it called? Shadow Mask that came out in, I think it was 2001. It's on TV and it's only subtitled. I haven't quite gotten to the point where I've been ready to sit there for an hour and a half and read the subtitles. But it looks quite good.
00:33:21
Speaker
I sort of counted it as the unofficial third movie. I think it's on YouTube. Someone's posted it on YouTube without subtitles and they literally call it Black Mask 3.
00:33:33
Speaker
Yeah, that doesn't say anything about that one in here, but this one has a lot of American actors in it, and it was actually written by, it looks like it was written by Americans. So you've got Tobin Bell, Tyler Maine, Scott Adkins, Tracy Lords, even John Palito was in it too. Rob Van Damme, as you mentioned. And yeah, and it says it's the same character, but he's got a different name.
00:34:02
Speaker
So like his name is Kanfung, and it also says he's being tracked by his creator, a giant brain, which is completely at odds with the first movie. Yeah, so I don't know why they say this is the same guy when it seems like it's just a different guy, but from the same program. Yeah. And that's the thing, they really went for that Kato look, which
00:34:29
Speaker
I dug. I think that was another thing that drew me to it was like, wow, they really went the Cato look, which they never referenced in the Hong Kong version. But I hear they did in the American version. Yeah, it references in America in the American version, because it was, I believe that was the intent, right? It was specifically based on on Cato, because he says in it, it in the scene when Tracy's when they're having dinner, and they're watching the news, and they're talking about Black Mask, and
00:34:59
Speaker
One of the, one of the girls says she looks, he reminds her of Cato. My son's fussy here.
00:35:11
Speaker
Okay, sorry about any technical difficulties and background noise people. My son is very noisy today. But anyway, he's moved him aside to a little bit, so he should be okay now. Anyway, we were saying about the Cato thing. And in that scene, Tracy then says to Black Mash, she says, you know, she's right, you do look a lot like Cato. She calls it a retro look.
00:35:34
Speaker
um and and that that's that's all we get about it but that there is that little reference and um i'm kind of surprised that they had cut that out of the well i'm not really surprised because there's there could be i'm not 100 sure if this is the reason why
00:35:50
Speaker
but it could be related to the fact that just like anti-Japanese sentiment and Kato, there have been so many different versions of Kato, but in some version, I think the original version was supposed to be Japanese. And I believe Bruce Lee's version was also supposed to be Japanese, if I'm not mistaken. So it might be connected. I thought he was Chinese.
00:36:17
Speaker
I know the character was changed. He's been changed in a few different ways, right? I know that in the, I think it was the original one, the original radio show, he was Japanese, but then it was changed various times. I think during the radio show, it was actually changed after the war started and they changed the Chinese at that point. And then I had Filipino. Filipino was another change they had made at one point as well.
00:36:46
Speaker
And again, I'm looking it up right now, but if I'm not mistaken, I think he was supposed to be Japanese in the TV show. But I'm not 100% sure. Yeah, all Asians look alike, don't they? Jesus, don't even get me started on that.
00:37:05
Speaker
OK, so we got this we pause so we can look this up and just double check stuff. So so talking about this big digression from what this for. But it's not connected to black mask at all. But this, according to Snopes, Cato was originally portrayed as as of Japanese descent during the first two years of the radio program.
00:37:26
Speaker
And then two years later, this is before Pearl Harbor, an urban legend says it was because of the Pearl Harbor attack, but it was actually before that and it suited Japan's political situation. References to his Japanese background was eliminated and he just became Asian, but wasn't specified where in Asia. And then a few months before the US entered World War II, he was described as being Filipino.
00:37:54
Speaker
But then the 1940 film serial, he was Korean. And in the 1960s TV show, you were right. He was, when he was played by Bruce Lee, he was referred to as Chinese. And then I think in the movie, he may have been either Chinese or Korean. It's Chinese from memory, but it's been a little while since I've watched that one.
00:38:17
Speaker
Yes, you're right. You're right. And in the film, he says that he was born in Shanghai. And then Reid replies saying that he loves Japan. But yeah, so that was the Cato connection. And yeah, I thought that was a cool look to use for the
00:38:39
Speaker
I wonder if the Chinese version removed those references because of anti-Japanese sentiment and they didn't want any connection to
00:38:50
Speaker
to that, but I'm not sure 100%. That's just a theory I have. I wouldn't have thought so because everyone loves Bruce Lee in China and Hong Kong. But I think it was just so obvious that he was doing Cato that I don't think they needed to say it. Whereas for an American audience, you might just need to go, look,
00:39:16
Speaker
We're doing Kato, just deal with it. Yeah, that's a good point, too, because this this came out in 96. So it'd been a long time since Green Hornet and the Green Hornet movie TV show. It only lasted for for a year anyway. So he wasn't as like, you know, as much of the cultural zeitgeist as, you know, Batman 66 or anything like that. Yeah. So that could be it, too, like just as a way to remind the U.S. audiences of what they were, what the references were.
00:39:41
Speaker
Um, which is funny because even me as a kid, uh, and I'd never seen Green Hornet, but I'd heard about it. So like when I saw him, his look at first thing I thought was Cato. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, there's another movie came out a few, uh, in 2010, legend of the fist, uh, the return of Chen Zen, which is a sequel to, uh, just a fury. And basically it has Chen Zen returning to, um,
00:40:10
Speaker
I forget where he was returning home after World War I and basically just putting on a Kato costume and fighting, you know, gangsters. Yeah, so that was kind of cool. I think they sort of had like, oh yeah, here's a costume in the window for a movies area we're showing in the 1920s, you know, 15 years before the Green Hornet was invented, it was created.
00:40:36
Speaker
But yeah, that was a fun movie. I enjoyed that. It's almost like, how do we make a Green Hornet movie without making a Green Hornet movie? It's like all these Batman shows. How do we make a Batman show but don't have Batman in it?
CGI and Technical Critique
00:41:11
Speaker
Yeah, so, you know, another weird thing about this movie was the I'm not sure why they did this, but they use these weird CGI bullets in a lot and some of the in the scenes at the end there. And that was another thing that just took me completely out of the movie. It just it felt so unnecessary. I sort of just figured there was some sort of high tech
00:41:34
Speaker
ultrasonic bullet things because they had laser beams. So, you know, they had some sort of advanced tech in the in the distant year of 1997. I think, yeah, I think the leader of the 701 goes, it's 1997. OK, there's my timeline. Yes. Yeah, I just assumed that there was some sort of science fiction. Ultrasonic sort of bullet things.
00:42:04
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, okay, I'll go with that. That goes straight through rock and everything. See, I didn't pick up on that. I just thought they were just regular bullets, but it was just really bad CGI rendering on them. Because they're also never mentioned or anything like that too. Like there's no sort of mention about it. So that's why I assume they're just regular bullets. Well, I could be wrong, but that was the only bullet, like those bullets that he was shooting were the only ones that were doing that.
00:42:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's probably the writer in my brain that just went that's what that is and roll with it. You know, whereas yeah, I you know, I just make up the story and then which is probably a far more effort than they put into some some things you just go. Yeah, that's what it is.
00:42:49
Speaker
Oh yeah, there's some really, there's some very low effort stuff in a lot of this like like we're saying with the with the script in a lot of places. The direction is just very bad and I don't want to criticize the, the, the acting too much because again I don't.
00:43:05
Speaker
I don't know how different their performances would be if I could hear the original Chinese dialogue. You watched a dub as well. Have you seen the original Chinese dialogue? No, no, I haven't.
00:43:21
Speaker
Okay, yeah, so I'm really curious how it would compare because I know I have had instances where I've seen the the the dub and then compared it the original like oh my god this is so much better this. Yeah, just like, and not in ways you think like it's just like, it's, it's like a completely different movie is how powerful superior it is with the original.
00:43:44
Speaker
So yeah, I'm curious how this would compare to the original. And if that would change my opinion, because I know, like I said, Jet Li's, I mean, you know, he's no Marlon Brando or anything like that, but he's a decent enough actor to, especially for a movie like this. Like, he could definitely sell this kind of character. I've seen him sell more complex characters than this, so. Yeah.
00:44:06
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah, also I do wonder like how much editing they did with the dubs as well. Like with that story beat, right? That was something that was just completely, obviously, like you said, I thought that was just part of the story, but apparently they had done some editing on the script as well and not only translated it, but changing some story elements. And it just, I don't know why they did that. I wonder if it doesn't even,
00:44:35
Speaker
I can't think of any reason why it makes sense. It's not like it's a situation where this didn't make sense in the original or it didn't make sense. It wouldn't make sense to American audiences, right? It's not that kind of an edit. It's just a very bizarre choice that makes the movie less logical. Yes. And yeah, that's what we need. Less logic. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:58
Speaker
What do you think of some of the other characters near so we have we have Tracy as the Kind of the main love interest in this what do you think of her? Yeah, it was weird almost You know, she's like she starts off and the they have the she's going on she's crying because she's always crying because she's always getting a heartbroken and the boss goes what you need is it is a dead-to-earth guy and
00:45:23
Speaker
And she goes, like, you? And he's going, no, no, no, totally wasn't suggesting me. And one of the other guys goes, but, you know, I'd be up for something casual if that's what you're after. And they said, but, you know, what about what about, you know, Jet Li over there? And I think that's where she sort of starts thinking about him in that way. And then as I've seen later on where Rock turns up to see Jet Li in the in the library.
00:45:51
Speaker
And they're going, oh, maybe he's just gay. You've been beaten out by the rock. And she throws a book at the rock. That was such a bizarre scene. I'm like, what? And she's like, I can't take it anymore. I can't take what? What the hell happened? And she's like, I'm like, why are you throwing the book at him? Like, you know, say gay, there's not much you can do about it. Yeah, there's I don't know. I think there's this
00:46:20
Speaker
this kind of like love starved or like love crazy trope in a lot of Hong Kong movies. And I think that's what that was supposed to be. But it's just, even back then it didn't age well. Now it ages even worse. It's just really bad.
00:46:37
Speaker
I know and the rock turns around and sort of sees who it is. He flips it over. Someone comes up in a taxi like that, you're going to turn around and belt them on. So he's like, don't do that.
00:46:55
Speaker
So she was, and then she sort of got into this whole Stockholm Syndrome thing like, oh yes, I'm keeping you here for your own protection by chaining you up and not even giving you a toilet. And it's like, oh yes, neither of them can cook. I would imagine that maybe he can't taste anything.
00:47:20
Speaker
Oh, you know, that's a good point. I never even thought about that. But yeah, if his other nerves are we can't feel pain and it stands to reason that he probably can't really taste anything either. Yeah. So I was just like, yeah, I'm just eating this. She just goes, nope, this is no good. I'll cook. And then she can't cook. And yeah, I did like that they kind of.
00:47:38
Speaker
subverted that whole thing because it when when she's and it's been years since I've seen this movie, so I can't remember what my original reaction was. But when when she said that, I'll cook for you. And then it cuts the scene of like her chopping all the vegetables and stuff like, oh, come on, this is ridiculous. And then it shows that she actually doesn't know what she's doing. I'm like, OK, that's a little bit better. I can kind of go now.
00:47:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think because he knew who she was in his real identity, he basically goes, yeah, look, she can't cook. I'll just go get some takeout while she's fussing around in the kitchen. And that was the other thing I thought was interesting. They're sitting there having dinner and she goes, and she's going, she's sussed it out. She's going, no, I wonder what happened to him.
00:48:21
Speaker
Mm hmm. And they sort of did the reverse of that whole, you know, Lois and Clark Superman triangle. It's like, no, no, I like I like the ordinary guy. I'm just a little bit freaked out by you. And she's going, yeah. And then she calls him she calls him a nerd and he and when he unmasked and she's like, oh, I was just kidding about that. Calling you a nerd.
00:48:49
Speaker
She actually ended up being slightly more competent than I thought she was going to be. And how about Kaylin or Yeklon? I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that correctly. What did you think of her character? I thought she was really cool. She did a lot of the, you know, I'm going to jump out of here and I'm going to sweep my cape out.
00:49:13
Speaker
uh yeah and she sort of you know she comes up and shoots everyone and rock goes hey that's both of you uh but yeah she sort of was that that token femme fatale who comes in looks good and kills you uh and it was nice to see the rocks that are going yeah look i'm not gonna fall for that i'm gonna set up some dummies um but yeah she yeah she wasn't you know like
00:49:38
Speaker
getting away might be your, might be her weak spot there. Just like, yeah, I think she got captured about three times. That's like, no. I think the, I mean, at least again, just judging off of what I've had to see in the, with the bad dub. I mean, I think really, Cheng Wan Lao, who played, who played the rock, I think he was probably the standout performance of the bunch. Oh, definitely. Yeah.
00:50:06
Speaker
Yeah, he had that I'm a hard boiled grizzled cop thing happening and probably did a lot better than what we saw in Black Scorpion a couple of weeks. Oh God, yeah, that was awful. Yeah, but he was sort of like, yeah, but I just love the fact, you know, oh yes, there's a guy with a bomb in him. Come on, Inspector, you can join the bomb squad for now. It's like 20 bomb techs and you're getting him to do it.
00:50:33
Speaker
which I thought was a bit weird, but I think, you know, I can imagine him being, I'm not leaving, I'm just going to stand here. But yeah, everyone's sort of like, yeah, we're just going to stand around and let the inspector do it. That was another thing too, it was just like, his both, and again, this could be a weakness of the dub, I'm not sure how well it was in other versions, but it just, that's another example of just like the writing not quite living up to
00:51:02
Speaker
what this movie could have been with, you know.
00:51:07
Speaker
Sichik has all these little things he knows, like he knows about, he knows, he knows about the bomb. He calls you up while you're in the middle of it. And he says, no, that you can't do that with that bomb. And then he says, oh, I've read about it after, when I heard about the bomb, I went and I did some research. I mean, like if Rock is any sort of, even like a bad detective, he should be able to figure out that timeline does not make any sense. Like he should have more questions about that.
00:51:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, how did you get the number? It's like, well, it was the hospital. Yeah, you just ring the hospital number and they'll put you through. Yeah. But yeah, I'm the commissioner and the cops are going, don't know what the commissioners voice sounds like, you know. That's a good point. Yeah, he says he's like, oh, it's the commissioner who did this. It's like.
00:51:55
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't even think about that, but you're right. Like, you'd think they'd know what the commissioner sounds like, or at the very least, they'd probably try and, you know, confirm it's him or something. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of very inept cops.
00:52:09
Speaker
Very inept cops and just like, yeah, the story is just not very good. It doesn't fit together the way it should. It's a nice concept, like the whole idea of this, you know, this super soldier who's trying to, you know, atone for his past and trying to take out this, this group of his former team, like, who've gone rogue, that,
Final Thoughts on Black Mask
00:52:34
Speaker
that's all really cool and good. I like it. That'd be very interesting. And it's a concept that you can do a lot with, but it's just, it's just not very well executed in this. Like the, the, again, the action is great. Like if you're going to watch this movie, I would, first off, I'd say don't watch the US release because I don't know what they were thinking with either that dub or the, the really terrible hip hop soundtrack. Um,
00:52:59
Speaker
but I would say definitely track down the Hong Kong version and watch that one and watch with the original dialogue. More than that, I would say, I mean, just some of these scenes are just shot so incompetently that I would say,
00:53:16
Speaker
Probably better off to just find a super cut on YouTube, like all the action scenes and watch that. Yeah, well, there's plenty of them out there because I sort of had a bit of a chit sticky to see if there was sort of any commentary or anything that I missed, but no. Yeah, it's like here's the best action scene and it's 20 different possible scenes you could be watching. Yeah. Or if you want a good Jet Li movie when he was kind of at his physical prime and you want it in English, I'd say go with
00:53:46
Speaker
go with Kiss of the Dragon because that was a solid film. Was that the one where he kicked the ball in the pill table? Yes, it was. Yes, it was. So good. That ad you had, I can't remember his name now, but he was also in La Femme Nikita. He's been in a lot of Luke Bessin's films, but the French actor who plays the villain in that is just... Jean Reno? Not Jean Reno, no, no, it was different guy.
00:54:12
Speaker
I'll have to look him up later, but he was amazing in that too. And you have the Bridget Fonda stuff you could do without, but it was, but the movie itself was very entertaining. No. Yeah. I do remember that, that they said definitely that cue ball kick that just, yeah, that did, that did it for me. It's like, that's so good. Yeah. I have a philosophy. It's like, if you look at something and you go, that's, that's crazy. There's two.
00:54:40
Speaker
So I looked up the name. It was Chequi Cario. He plays the villain in it. Ah yes. I have a philosophy. You watch something and you go, that's crazy. There should only be two responses. That's awesome and I want to watch it or that's absolutely ridiculous and I refuse to watch it. 90% of the time
00:55:01
Speaker
I'm the one going, that's not, probably 99% of the time I'm just going, that's awesome. I want to watch this. And my wife's just going, my wife and daughter are just going, no, no, I'm not watching this. I'm not watching this thing where, you know, this guy's just, you know, doing all these crazy things. And it's like, ah, which is why I went to cocaine bear with a friend.
00:55:22
Speaker
We had another guest recently who talked about Cocaine Bear, and he said it was a lot of fun. So I'm looking forward to checking that out. I'm not even sure if it's out here yet, but I'll have to check it out when it comes out here. Oh, it's definitely crazy. Yeah, it's like inspired by a true story. Yeah, once the movie starts, that's when the true story stops, basically. There are other things you wanted to mention about Black Mask.
00:55:48
Speaker
Look here, it's got a few notes. It looks like I've covered most of it. I noticed I've really prominently put in that Sue Hark, who directed Double Team, was the producer. I don't think I can even see the director's name on the cover.
00:56:05
Speaker
That's how small they put Daniel Lee's name. So I do wonder if he directed, may have directed some of those action scenes. I doubt it, but I think it's just because Sue Hark is a bigger name in the West. It's sort of like those movies that came out a few years ago, Quentin Tarantino Presents. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Right. Directed by someone you've never heard of. Right, right. That was when I think it was, I think it started with, it might have been Hero that started that up when
00:56:35
Speaker
Quentin Tarantino was trying to get it distributed and the studio said, we'll distribute it, but only if you can put your name on it. And he's like, fine, go ahead and put my name on it. But Sui Haak, he's pretty well known. A lot of his stuff has made it out here to the west. So like, I mean, I remember hearing his name when I was a kid in the 90s, so he's definitely fairly well known.
00:57:03
Speaker
So I think that's probably why that that was definitely like it. Yeah. Put it. Put a guy's name in. Oh, yeah. I saw this movie. Great. Yeah. And yeah, it almost makes you think that he directed it. But he directed the second one. I'm like, well, so I don't know. Yeah. Like, like, OK, you were involved in both of them. You know, give me just just give me a little bit of consistency, please. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, that's that's all I really have to say about it, too.
00:57:32
Speaker
I mean, as far as I know, I think it's the only superhero film Jet Li has done. And it's kind of disappointing because I mean, he deserved better than this, I think. And I think if you had a more competent director than it and just like, you know,
00:57:52
Speaker
I mean, I'm curious about the original comic and how this would compare to it, like you'd said about it. But even if it was something a little bit closer to the comic book, it might've been, I can't imagine it being worse, but you never know. Oh, could you imagine if Sam Raimi had had directed this? That would be interesting. That would be interesting. But I was thinking more like, you know, 96. I mean, John Woo would probably be who I'd love to see it directed.
00:58:21
Speaker
Yeah, it was just I think it was the dark van connection that made me go. Oh my god. Could you imagine me doing it? But yeah, but yeah, we would have been a good choice. Yeah, you know, probably anyone. Yeah, Daniel Lee. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, no offense meant to Daniel Lee, because this was only like, I looked it up. This is like his second or third movie. But
00:58:46
Speaker
It's just like, I mean, Sui Haak should have taken him aside and said, listen, you really got to do some more. You should really, you know, ask when you don't know what you're doing here, because just like some of this camera work is just very bad. It's terrible.
00:59:02
Speaker
See, I think that's in summation. I would say it's not really worth the time to try and track down this movie. I'm not sure how readily available it is because I had checked on the streaming services and stuff here to see if it was, if I could find the extended version, because all I had was this old DVD version and I couldn't find anything on any streaming site. So I'm not sure if it's available easily. There's a few versions on YouTube.
00:59:28
Speaker
uh yeah there's one that's an hour 30 one that's an hour 25 uh but yeah i i presume yeah but they're there for how long who knows but as you say yes it's probably just easier to just go show me all the best fight scenes and you know you've got 40 minutes of great fights
00:59:51
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. That's like watch it for the fight scenes and that's pretty much it. But I am still curious. At some point, I do want to see how this compares to the original language version because I am curious to see something with, see how Jet Lead performed in his earlier career before we kind of evolved into what we mostly know him for these days.
01:00:16
Speaker
Yeah, well, he hasn't done much of late. He was in the Mummy 3 that we discussed the other day, and he was also in the Mulan remake. He was the Emperor. Oh, was he? Yeah. Yeah, other than that, he hasn't done a great deal. I did hear he was unwell, but I don't know how true that is. Oh, OK.
01:00:45
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not sure. I haven't really heard of him much since the Expendables when he did, because he was briefly in two and three, but I mostly remembered him from one. And then I never saw the Mulan remake, so I don't know about that. I've never seen either version of Mulan, actually. Yeah, or my daughter was obsessed and it was just like,
01:01:08
Speaker
All right. I watched the original. Let's watch the remake. And I'm like, do we have to? There's no dragon in it. Okay. We are watching it. Which is not, you know, like I said, I love democracies. There's three of us who live in the house and, uh, you know, the girls, the girls gang up on me. All right. Um, but anyway, I think that that's all we have to say about black mass. So Brad, why don't you tell people where they can find your stuff?
01:01:38
Speaker
Yeah, I've got my blog Puffy Brad and I'm a Luddite, I don't have too many other, I don't do any of the other socials. Like Machete, I don't tweet. He doesn't text. In the second one, he doesn't tweet. Oh, okay. He did an extended version of that.
01:02:02
Speaker
It's been a while since I've seen the second one, so I didn't remember that. But anyway, so that does it for this episode. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And remember, you subscribe to our Patreon, get these episodes a week in advance. By the time you listen to this, our companion show, where we talk about the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club, we've got an episode that Brad came on. We talked about Doomsday Clock, its connections to Watchmen and
01:02:32
Speaker
and also kind of like the whole idea of like a sequel to Watchmen and a lot of fun discussions there. Probably more fun than talking about Black Mask or Black Scorpion like the last time he was on here. But you have to pay to get access to that one. But that does it for us. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
01:02:52
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:03:12
Speaker
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01:03:56
Speaker
Thank you for listening. And as always, good night. Good evening. God bless.