Transcript
brett: Greetings plant people. How's everybody doing today? This lovely day after, at least in my neck of the woods, we received a soaking rain.
Alexis : Rain!
Plant People: We needed it. Needed it.
Jessica : So excited.
Plant People: Yeah. It has been so dry.
Alexis : The first text message I got from Jessica this morning was, my rain gauge reads one and a half inches.
brett: Soaking rain.
Alexis : What does yours read?
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : First thing I did this morning.
Plant People: I don't recall a more dry here in our neck of the woods in the world and in the state, a more dry April. I mean, it was not typical. Oh, is that it?
brett: Somebody was talking the other day about fourth driest on record or something like that.
Alexis : I think...
Alexis : Yeah, I was going to like, a week ago, we were top five.
Plant People: Yeah. I didn't know it was dry.
Alexis : So, and I think we moved up into the top four, like, on, right yeah, ever ever recorded.
Plant People: Wow. Yeah.
Jessica : you can You can definitely see it, though, especially like out in the pastures and the hay fields because it's like people are like right now debating, they like, okay, if I cut hay, uh-oh, if we don't get a rain, that might be it.
Plant People: It was just unusual.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
brett: Did you all...
Alexis : Especially after like drought last fall, like the fall and then another a spring drought, like wild.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah.
brett: Here's a little experiential question.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: Did you all have any things you were that you tried to do in the day or two leading up that you wanted to get done before it rained?
Plant People: Yes.
brett: So like a suburban landscape, cut the grass. You may want to get the gut cut get grass cut before a bunch of rain comes or or something like that.
Plant People: the
brett: But are there other examples of that?
Plant People: Cut the grass. I got a flower bed seed.
Jessica : Yes, our household, it was ah planting lots of sweet corn and other things and getting other garden prep done.
Plant People: Oh yeah.
Alexis : Thank you.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : um That was the big things in our neck of the woods.
Plant People: When you made when you say garden prep, is that yeah was that plowing, tilling or disking?
brett: Yeah, it's crazy.
Plant People: What was that?
Jessica : Yeah, it was tilling up the garden again and getting everything prepped for.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica : Hopefully then like once things dry out, there'll be more planting that will take place as we are getting more into that safe zone, even though it feels like it's been safe this whole time, but it might not be.
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: yes's crazy
Plant People: Well, it was so warm earlier. yeah Very, very warm early on. We had an 85 degree days when we should be having 65 degree days consistently. Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Crazy.
Jessica : We had a lot of that going on, getting stuff in the ground.
Alexis : Oh, we're going to get one last cold. I just know it.
Jessica : I have too many coleuses out.
Plant People: You feel it.
Jessica : Too many. I got 18 in one flower bed. I can't cover them all. Okay.
brett: She's colia's rich.
Plant People: I saw my neighbor putting out his tomatoes, so I put out my tomatoes. I was like, I know I shouldn't, but I'm going to. He's not beating me this year.
Jessica : Well, Ray, you got to beat him.
brett: arms Arms race has really got to you.
Plant People: I do. I do. the art And not only that, but sure only short season varieties. I'm like, listen, I'm relying on science and pure dumb luck to make this happen.
Jessica : it's like
Plant People: Pure dumb luck. Yeah.
brett: Some other stuff that I think about, like timing it with rain. you Jessica, you mentioned earlier that like, or just a second ago about the soil prep. Normally under typical conditions, we often have springs where it's too wet to get into the field to do prep.
Alexis : Claude.
brett: So that's one of those where it's kind of the opposite, where you're trying to take care of that as much as you can.
Jessica : Thank you.
Plant People: Yeah. yeah
brett: because and if you're not familiar with that, the reason why, and you know can correct me, but that if when the soil is wet, particularly if there's a lot of clay in the soil, you'll chop it up and it'll just chunk up into these big bricks.
brett: You know, you're not really breaking stuff up, these big soil clods. And then that makes it difficult to do lots of other stuff later. You can also tear up the field and get stuck and all kinds of other fun stuff when it's wet.
Alexis : Not the soil structure!
brett: Not, not my soil structure. um
Alexis : Not the gumdrop buttons!
Jessica : Oh no.
brett: I was about to go fully into the gingerbread man, but I, I will resist.
Plant People: You were i felt you getting ready to go over the cliff Yeah
Alexis : a
brett: I've, inside me there, there is Brett and there's the gingerbread man. And right now Brett, Brett is winning.
Plant People: Come on Gingy Gingy It's gonna come out before this episode ends Gingy is coming out
brett: Yeah. i Um, but, uh, another thing too, I think fungicide people sometimes want, um, want to spray fungicide on after, but most of our fungicides are prophylactic.
brett: So they, you know, much like, ah birth control, they mostly work on the front end of the experience.
Alexis : prevented it.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
brett: And so um the ah getting stuff sprayed that might have some disease pressure whatever is ahead of rainy times is another thing. And I put down a little bit of herbicide in some areas that are hard to mow.
brett: ah well ahead of the rain to let it dry and kind of soak in.
Plant People: yeah
brett: But it's just a, it's a funny, I'm always just curious what, Oh, oh yesterday I got my rain barrel pump system set up. Got all the plugs and everything routed and make sure all of them were emptied out into the secondary reservoirs.
Plant People: Oh, good timing.
Alexis : o
Plant People: Perfect. Yeah.
brett: But I don't know. I was just like to pull people. Was there, did you have anything, Alexis, that you kind of think about right before a big rain after Yeah.
Alexis : ah usually i'm in what would be destroyed by the rain if i don't cut it from like a flower perspective yeah yeah
brett: mm-hmm it's destroyed by the the like like disease and stuff or okay
Alexis : Just wind, what could be wind, it could be water spots, it could just be like, you know, everybody who's ever had a peony has experienced the peonies flop, you know, over so stems can get broken, just kind of the, very you know, blooms are knocked off, those types of things.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: yeah
Alexis : And I'm usually, i'm usually behind, so not everything gets picked. And then I get to realize it was an experiment the whole time. And actually, yeah, it's not that big a deal.
brett: Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Some things are beyond your control, Alexis. Some things.
Jessica : We also did...
Plant People: The peonies. Mm-hmm.
Jessica : A lot of cleanup as well, because there are a lot of things because with this rain, there's also a lot of strong winds that came through.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Jessica : so it's like, well, this is the perfect opportunity to pick up all those containers and everything before they blow around the yard into other places. So it was kind of like get stuff planted.
Jessica : and then also let's clean like the stress cleaning that you do before people come over to your house. but Clean everything up quickly.
brett: Batten down the hatches. Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
brett: I was doing some of that yesterday too.
Plant People: Yeah, it was. that unusual
brett: Things that I had just left outside that, because it wasn't going to rain for forever.
Jessica : Right.
brett: It's just like, oh yeah, let's just not leave these tools out to just get rusted over overnight.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Oh.
brett: That'd be cool. And make sure that all these, these things aren't just collecting gallons and gallons of water that I have to then dump out somewhere. And yeah.
Plant People: Mosquito bands.
Jessica : Yep. Before mosquitoes move in.
brett: Yeah. Cool. Well, a lot of that, I think a lot of that, that type of experience, those senses, like I got to the point now, or now it's, it's a, I'm a little bit more tuned to the bonsai, but back when I was working at the research farm, it was like watching the forecast and getting a sense of,
brett: Okay, we have to get this piece of equipment and do this now. Like I need to stay until eight o'clock tonight to do this because if we don't, it's raining the next four days.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: that That type of experience and like sensibility, almost starts to like become less of an intellectual thing and more like you can just feel that that thing needs to happen. And that just comes through like lots of experience and experience is a nice way of saying making mistakes and messing up and oh realizing it after the fact. And maybe you knew, maybe you didn't, maybe.
brett: But I think when you make those mistakes, sometimes it can be easy to feel like you don't actually know what you're doing. And there's this there's this thing that I've seen that happens sometimes with the people we work with, a lot of the producers across the state, technical assistance people, everybody else.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: Where they're very, very competent. They're very smart. They're experienced. They're talented. They're all these things. And yet they come to believe that they are a fake.
brett: That they are hiding out. That they are going to be found out to be a an imposter.
brett: And in this era where Dunning-Kruger effects are running rampant everywhere, lots of people think that they know all kinds of things that they don't. It's really heartbreaking to sometimes see people who do know what they're talking about doubt themselves.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: And so I thought, you know, i was i was recently I was at this meeting recently with a person who's thinking about starting a new enterprise. And he said something to me like it wasn't a question. It was a statement.
brett: He was talking about experiencing imposter syndrome. himself. And then he said to me, well, you don't experience it. And I was like, oh, okay.
brett: I guess I come off as as cocky as I feel because you're exactly right, bro.
Alexis : yeah
brett: If anything, I'm i'm underutilized you know for my considerate.
Alexis : coming through
Plant People: Thank you.
brett: No, but I thought it would be interesting to maybe talk about either times you've experienced this within this small ag horticulture world or the times that you've seen other people maybe experience it and just talk through what that, what that means. and And again, this is the culture of horticulture a little bit, a little bit more of a personal episode, but yeah. Does anybody feel like kicking us off when, when you felt like a phony?
Jessica : I have a great example about my apple tree production.
brett: Okay.
Jessica : I teach apple grafting classes, apple tree care classes. I know a lot about apple trees and I doubt myself constantly with, ah you know, plant spacing. I can't tell you how many times I've gone back and like,
Jessica : re-read extension publications, texted Alexis, texts, like, there's so many times of, like, things in horticulture that should know, or I do know, but
Alexis : You do know when you're telling it to someone else.
Jessica : Somebody else, but then it comes down to it. I don't know. There's countless times that I've talked with Alexis about things that I'm just like, is this right? Like, do we do this, you know, this certain way? And it's like, yeah, you know, and I don't know why that is like why we do that um to ourselves when we do.
Jessica : We know it's right. Yeah.
brett: And do you but do you feel like you feel like you should should know it or is it that you you do know it but you just start to doubt yourself?
Alexis : I feel like...
Jessica : I think I start to doubt myself because then I start thinking too, I'm like, well, here I am this person who's supposed to be teaching others.
brett: Mm-hmm.
Jessica : And then if somebody somebody comes to my house, and'll be like, wow, why are those apples it planted in such a strange way?
Alexis : I'm supposed to know.
Jessica : You know, um is it a new technique?
Alexis : It's an experiment.
Jessica : or Right.
Alexis : that's what you tell people.
Jessica : I'm running my own research projects.
Alexis : I'm so experienced. I can experiment at this point.
brett: You told me three three inches on center.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: I'm learning what doesn't work.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : ah There's things like that all the time that I i do.
brett: Hmm.
Jessica : and then especially my my husband who's born in the city, yeah he he doesn't listen, but I think some of his friends listen. um That, you know, he is a farmer, but he definitely, he he is he is a farmer, but he definitely will tell people a lot of times that he is not a farmer.
brett: Hmm.
Jessica : And he's that like example of, he's like, oh no, he's
Alexis : is it a hobby like what does he call it if he doesn't call it like farming
Jessica : He's like, ah i like hey I guess he compares himself to like my dad or my brother. But I'm like, you're a more diverse producer than both of them. So.
Alexis : that's I think where I see it a lot with people, yeah, is like they are not full-time farmers.
brett: So, it's the 21st century.
Alexis : I mean, they're full-time. They're putting in the work from an hourly standpoint, but they are have an off-farm job ah to help support. And so because they're not farming as their full-time gig on paper and maybe like bringing in
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : a you know full job salary ah with all that stuff, they don't consider themselves a farmer.
Plant People: yeah
Alexis : And if that's just not that's just not the case. for And I want to say, for those of you feeling imposter syndrome surrounding farming or whatever, There is no police going to come and say that you're not actually a farmer. Like call yourself whatever you want, right? Like just, just believe it because if you're putting in the work, doing whatever you're doing, just roll with it. No one, who's going to stop you?
Alexis : Who's going to stop you? I don't, I'm just, that's my vibe on it.
Jessica : kids
brett: Mm-hmm.
Plant People: something something related, nobody's going to say anything.
Alexis : Like who's going to correct me?
Jessica : Because we also know lots of people who are not really farmers.
Alexis : Who's going to correct Yeah.
Jessica : But, you know, like, so you're right. Like, nobody is going to correct you.
Alexis : and yeah And, you know, if they if they believe themselves a farmer, and maybe I don't, but I'm not going correct them.
Plant People: Self-identify.
Alexis : Who going to correct them?
Plant People: Identify as a farmer. Yeah. but My dad one time said, he said the tough thing about being a farmer is that nobody confers that degree upon you. He said that it's sort of a broad thing to him because, you know, we grew up at one point in our lives, we were farming almost exclusively other people's land. We were the help.
Plant People: We were not the owner of the land. And I was like, are we the farmers or just the help?
Alexis : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Even though we were making all the decisions, it was offsite ownership. We were farming everything and we benefited on shares from everything on the farm. was very diversified. But, you know, and so we had this conversation and he said that nobody confers the title like a doctor. You become a doctor and new you're conferred a title ah with the degree and all the associated or a lawyer or whatever. He said, nobody confers that on you. If you're a farmer, you just have to be a farmer by doing farming.
Plant People: by growing and and and, you know, working with living things and systems.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: But ah that always stuck with me that nobody confers to the degree of a farmer. I mean, yes, technically you can be specialized in a degree from, you know, university or, you know, formal education.
Plant People: But as far as there's no degree for that farmer, it's interesting. That was a good point, hi Alexis. And it made me think about what Dad used to say, and I had't thought about that in a very long time, that he said, nope, he said you are only a farmer if you consider yourself to be one.
Plant People: So, yeah.
brett: Well, can we?
Plant People: yeah
Alexis : Yeah, and I mean this with farming. Don't go tell people you're a doctor if you're not an actual doctor.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: Yes, don't do that.
Jessica : Do not do that.
Plant People: Don't do that. No, that is different.
Alexis : True.
brett: Too late, too late.
Plant People: Yeah. I'm practicing the doctor and so therefore I must be a doctor.
brett: yeah
Plant People: Yes. Yeah. Got band-aids.
Jessica : There are different types of doctors too, right?
Plant People: We'll travel. ah Yes, exactly.
Jessica : So... no
Plant People: Yeah. The specializations are real.
Jessica : to
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: Well, so can we can we just briefly before we keep on the can we can we stay with this and what? what is the point of oneself calling oneself a farmer or what's the value or what's the why would we encourage someone to call themselves that or not or like why do you think people because i i i find this to be a really interesting contested term that 50 plus years ago would have been used often pejoratively negatively critically or or like sort of dismiss someone as a you know whatever kind of farmer backward whatever
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Alexis : They're
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Alexis : just farmer.
brett: And now it's kind of in some ways come more in in vogue ah and become in some systems kind of a cool thing to say about yourself.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: And I'm just curious what you all think like, like, why is it?
brett: What's the point of encouraging someone to call themselves a farmer?
Alexis : Taxes, baby. Schedule F.
Jessica : I was going to say, there's like the cultural side of it, just kind of like you said, where people are like, oh, wow, how cool you grow food, right? Where a lot of most people don't grow their own food.
Jessica : um To just like Alexis said, taxes, you can't, if you are, if you want to farm and there are opportunities for funding or different loans, you're available, you cannot get those loans unless you are, so you know, actually you proving that you are a farmer, right?
Jessica : You can't apart get some of those special incentives that will help you along your farming journey unless you can actually prove to them that, yeah, I legit am growing crops or I have livestock and, you know, this is how much I've made on them or my expenses with, you know, these materials.
Alexis : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jessica : Um, So I think there's like two two sides of that, right? There's like the financial side of it and then there's just the like the cultural kind of side.
Plant People: The identity, the way you identify.
Jessica : Yeah. Yeah.
Plant People: And I think the identity part's really important ah for me, and it always has been, because I think if people identify themselves as a farmer, a real farmer, that's, I was like, what's a real farmer?
Plant People: I don't know. But they identify themselves as a farmer. they are more likely to seek out informal supportive relationships for farming.
Jessica : you
Plant People: And to me, that's extremely important within a community. And I know that I didn't always feel that way when I was particularly a teenager. And I looked around high school and I was definitely in the minority. There wasn't a lot of folks around that were growing things like We were, you know, all the things.
Plant People: um And it's easy to get off to yourself. But I think as an adult, and I've worked with different producers, that if they identify themselves as a farmer, they'll tend to seek out, you know, other groups of farmers.
Plant People: And that helps normalize the failures in farming that's so inherent.
Alexis : community.
Plant People: Because, You're working with weather patterns and biological events that are beyond your control. And I think about baseball, oddly enough, at this point in the conversation, because heard a coach many years ago, you know, to refer to baseball as a failure based sport.
Plant People: You know, you're supposed to strike out the majority of times, but it's that 20th time that you hit a homer, hit a. you know, a base hit, you know, then then you're winning in that moment. Farming sort of the same way.
Plant People: It's sometimes almost a failure-based sport where you're not always going to win. Even though you do a good job, you're knowledgeable, there's things beyond your control, like we talked about earlier, Alexis, things beyond your control.
Plant People: But if farmers identify themselves as a farmer, they tend to seek out those relationships with the community.
Alexis : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Plant People: I mean, sometimes I kind of poke fun at the local coffee hangout spot, but that's a really important place for people to normalize their experiences of being a farmer and say, ah, the soybeans just aren't doing good this year.
Plant People: I feel like I failed at them. Well, their next door neighbor says, no, not really. Mine aren't doing good either. So for me, it's an identity issue that's critically important because once you identify with that, you will travel in those circles.
Plant People: And I believe those circles provide support within the community, both formally and informally.
brett: Hmm.
Plant People: ah So identifying yourself as a farmer is kind of important because you'll kind of seek out, you know, relationships, I think.
Alexis : This feels like it kind of leads me to this I don't know how new it is. It feels like a newer term that we've seen a lot of our specialty crop growers use, which is grower instead of using the term farmer.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : and they're And they're interchangeable, right?
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : But like farmer kind of has like, if someone tells you they're a farmer, usually that you're thinking... Like big ag, livestock, no corn, soybean, um agriculture versus when someone tells you they're a grower, often you immediately go to some sort of specialty crop.
Plant People: Yeah. yeah
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Alexis : um At least at least i do.
Plant People: producer or grower
Alexis : i don't know if you all had that same just kind of immediate ah you know recognition and then they might tell you.
Plant People: m
Alexis : But like in theory, they could both be interchangeable, although I'm probably not going to use the term grower, although I have on accident for like someone with pigs. I'm like, they're a pig grower. so
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : But, you know what I mean?
Plant People: I grow, I grow pigs.
Alexis : So and i I don't know if that goes back to sort of this like community that you're saying, Ray, where people... maybe didn't feel quite like a farmer, you know, maybe they feel like they're too small, or they're not growing enough, where, you know, farmer has this, you know, connotation of they're doing, you know livestock or something.
Alexis : So grower is something that they've come more around with, and creates that community.
Plant People: I see that more with first time growers.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Just what you said, Alexis, with first time growers, they'll, they'll softly go into kind of the whole farmer aspect of things. They said, well, I grow the X or Y I grow, or I produce X or y And then I've met that same person years down the road. They're not much bigger than they were, but they're a farmer now.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Not a lot has changed besides their comfort level of living in those circles. And i don't know, I wonder, you Jessica, you mentioned like Sean, the way he identifies what he is. And it's interesting when you said that comment ah that, you know, it's just a way of how you identify yourself.
Plant People: Yeah, he's growing. He's more specialized, maybe growing more than a lot of other folks that consider themselves farmers. But it's it's interesting when the way people say, whether they're a grower, a farmer, or some people will say, I'm a hay producer, they'll be more specific.
Plant People: But it's kind of about identity and how you see yourself.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: And
brett: but But Sean would describe himself as a firefighter.
Jessica : Yeah, he's a firefighter, a firefighter farmer, right?
Plant People: Oh, okay.
Jessica : Finally got him to where he would say that. But. Right.
brett: So he's not he's not averse to labels entirely. It's it's more something specific about the farm.
Jessica : Right. right
brett: Because I am extremely averse to labels ah personally.
Plant People: Gotcha.
brett: And like, yeah.
Plant People: Brett is an enigma.
brett: Like, we'll call me like a sociologist or an ag economist or a podcaster. You know, I mean, that's just what that's so just what's in the popular press.
Plant People: Really an Excel fan.
brett: ah And I do not like it at all.
Alexis : ah Noted.
brett: I am averse to it.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: I think the labels are super powerful.
Plant People: I shall not be labeled.
brett: And I think part of what we're talking about here is that there's a there is a real political economy to who gets included and who doesn't.
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: It's not just this little flitty, you know, oh, I'm this or I'm that and i don't feel comfortable. Like there there are forces that sort of try to defend what a farmer is and what is not.
Alexis : Hmm.
brett: There are governmental programs supporting things. I mean, just yeah, just within the last 10 years or so, i think 10 years at at this point, it wouldn't surprise me.
Plant People: There's definitions, right?
Alexis : What is time?
brett: Somebody told me it was 15, but let's say the last 15 years. There's just been there was a huge push to try to accept urban agriculture into USDA programs available for support. And so, for example, you you would before that would have seen like a high tunnel would only go up on a what would be considered a rural farm or operation.
brett: And now they're able to use USDA dollars for agriculture, for farmers to put in high tunnels in ah a highly urban environment in Louisville, for instance.
brett: There's people who have large, like relatively large high tunnels in their backyards growing and selling into their local communities.
Jessica : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
brett: and ah I have my own thoughts about it, but I think in general, a lot of times if the imposter syndrome, if it's entirely coming from within the person, then talk to a therapist.
brett: We are not licensed clinical therapists. We are not any of those things, but I think it's also worth, that's right.
Alexis : But if you need a hype man, we can help you there.
brett: But it's all, it's also worth asking whose, whose interest is it in, in whose interest is it to, you for me to feel like an imposter, for me to not show up to an extension council meeting or me to not show up and say, I too am doing this stuff in a very different way at a very different scale.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: But I had to clap back at somebody one time who was talking, you know, Alexis, you'll be proud. ah They were talking about cut flower farms. It was in a fairly traditional quote unquote, traditional ag conversation.
brett: And I was like, I mean, I know people who have made $30,000 on an acre while you all lost $100,000 2,000 acres. like it's it's There's a matter of scale here.
brett: There's also a matter of profitability.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: There's a matter of identity. And again, politics and economics behind this.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: And I think... To me, like horticulture is a really interesting space because you'll have this core of people who are trying to make what they do valid, be seen as valid by the community, be seen as valid by the ag establishment, by these very traditional ag interests.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: And they're kind of defending that upward and saying, just like your giant row crop farm, i too am doing agriculture in a very different way. But there's also can be a tendency sometimes to for people to to sort of who have moved to some level of whatever legitimacy means in that world to also police the term for themselves downward to say, if you've got three buckets with tomatoes in your backyard and you're selling them to your neighbor next door, you're not a farmer. You're out.
brett: And ah maybe you are, maybe you aren't. I'm not here to to make a ruling on that. But I do think it's a really interesting trying to trying to justify validity while also po police it downward. um And the imposter syndrome piece fits in with that really, really well. And I i don't know. I think we have a there's a conversation about what we want our farming community to look like or be as we move forward.
brett: that fits in with that. And, um, that's a topic for another day, but, uh, anybody else got any imposter syndrome examples?
Alexis : specific
Plant People: I think information paralysis plays into this, Brett. As everything's become or could potentially be become specialized, and I'm one of those, you know, anytime I'd sit down or write an extensive paper, like, you know, when I was getting my my master's or whatever, we had Savannah Columbion on an earlier episode.
Jessica : Thank you.
Plant People: And we talked about some good work she was doing. Well, when I took you know work on like that, that was an extensive work to myself. I'm a researcher. I had a professor finally say, Dr. Julie Zimmerman at UK, that said, Ray, at some point you...
brett: Oh, shout out Julie.
Plant People: Yeah, shout out to Julie. She said, ah Ray, I know how much you love to read. At some point you have to start writing.
brett: yeah
Plant People: But I would read hundreds because I would get down a rabbit hole on a sideline.
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: And I just had information paralysis. And I believe that sometimes... happens with growers, you know, as things have become more specialized, as they grow their operations.
Plant People: I don't know. It kind of plays into that for me because they're like, oh, my goodness. Well, yeah, i grow dahlias, but I don't know about, in you know, fungicides or I don't know about irrigation or your high tunnels.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: And I don't know if you guys have ever ran into anybody, ah you know, in that scenario in your professional capacities or even at home. But I think sometimes people, because they don't understand every single concept and all the information that's available to them, they're like, well, we're still learning.
Plant People: And my kind of comeback for that is, listen, if you're producer, there is no new producer phase where you graduate from and then become a farmer.
Plant People: You are always going to be learning because the information, the state of science is always going to be changing. and I don't know. um I have a point here. I just don't know how to get to it, but it's all the information.
Alexis : Well, yeah. yeah no, no two days are the same in farming, right? No two seasons are the same.
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : There's always a new crop to try. There's always a new insect that's going to eat it that you've never had before that you know nothing about. Like there's not knowing everything is, i would say a description of a farmer.
Alexis : Like, so if you, if you would describe yourself as not knowing everything, then welcome to the club, you know?
Plant People: yeah
Alexis : So that's,
Plant People: Maybe that's what makes you a true producer, grower, farmer, whatever you want to, how are you?
Alexis : Is it that you don't need to know everything or you never will?
Plant People: Yeah. Or just knowing what you don't know.
Jessica : You never will. and It's different every single day.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Pretty much every, like you said, every season is different.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : What you might be doing last season, you might not do the next season.
Plant People: And I see that.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. And it varies a lot and yeah, it's failure based.
Alexis : my and
brett: would i What I heard from what you were saying, Ray, is that you you almost you can almost feel like you've never read enough to be good enough to go forth and do.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: And the reality is, i think that farming, like a lot of life, is done in practice. it's not you know you you You will do better if you have put some time in to study and prepare.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: And you will do better if you take your failures and successes and reflect back on them in light of what other people are are doing. And I think that your comment about the community part earlier really speaks to that too of successes and failures.
brett: You can sort of commiserate and say, whoa, it's been a crazy good year for Iris, for instance. Up in our house, Iris are popping around our neighborhood.
Plant People: okay It has been. Yeah.
brett: Iris is popping. It's been so dry. They aren't getting beat to hell by storms and disease and stuff. They're loving it. And that's something you don't know unless you're able to kind of contextualize and understand.
brett: But but fundamentally, it's about the practice.
Plant People: yeah
brett: I mean, medicine is about the practice. You go to medical school, you do all the studying. don't know if anybody's watched the pit. Holy moly. Crazy. ah But thinking about.
Jessica : My husband says that is very accurate from what he's experienced.
brett: Yeah.
Jessica : So, yeah.
brett: Yeah, that you're you're teaching like these students go and do internships and residency to learn on the job in practice. And you know what? People make mistakes. People die.
brett: Things happen. And like, I think that that's amazing.
Alexis : yeah it's just I have a friend um who I've said this before but she she always says it's just flowers and because she used to work in the NICU and she's she said I used to work with babies who are very sick and so I flower farm now and I just sometimes have to remind myself it's only flowers and I'm like
brett: Yeah.
Alexis : Or it's, you know, yeah, you don't want to lose your whole crop and the farm go under or anything.
brett: yeah
Alexis : We're not making light of that situation, but, you know, in the grand scheme of things.
Jessica : perspective, right? Of what's, you know,
Alexis : Yeah, perspective.
Plant People: I think it's perspective, Jessica, and I see that more in either first generation producers. um I see that more in them or just producers that are new to growing things and working in those systems. I see that a whole lot more, but it's that perspective that you can only gain by you know going through a few seasons, learning what to pay attention to. knowing what you don't know and growing what you can grow.
Plant People: um You know, and that's, that's just, that's a time factor, but yeah, perspective. That's a good one that plays into all of the conversation here.
Alexis : And I think imposter syndrome is something that it's always been real, but maybe the the terminology is more recent because we can so easily compare our lives online.
Alexis : And so
Jessica : Right.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : you know, it's easy to look and be like, well, I'm also growing Iris.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Why aren't my Iris looking like Brett's Iris, you know? And it's probably because he's better than me in every way.
brett: Skill gap.
Alexis : But other than that...
brett: Skill gap is what we call that.
Plant People: We've ah
Alexis : ah
brett: I wish.
Alexis : um It's, you know, remembering that number one people post their highlight reels of their life right there's not the behind the scenes. But you know, also, the the one, ah the one gimme I think with with farming that you can always fall back on is Your soil to begin with, I'm always going to bring it back to soil, right?
Alexis : Your soil is not the same. you The weather you experience, even from your neighbor, might not be the same. You know, there's a lot of things that are different.
brett: Totally.
Alexis : And so, you know, if you're not going to give yourself the credit that you're due, you can always blame Mother Nature, right?
Jessica : Yeah. I live two miles away from my parents and also talked to my dad this morning about how much rain did you get at your house, right?
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Because that's what you do when you're a farmer.
Plant People: Yeah, you compare, yeah.
Jessica : And they had a different amount than we did two miles away. And he said, i didn't think the wind was that bad. And I said, well, I had a tree fall over last night at my house.
brett: Yeah,
Jessica : so
Alexis : Right.
Jessica : so like you can be that close and experience very different things. Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah, and just because you compared.
brett: yeah I was looking at a
Alexis : Right. So don't compare yourself. But if you do, just remember it's not always your fault.
Jessica : Right. Exactly.
brett: I was looking at ah at a wind, ah like last night, wind map, like peak ah peak gusts in like across different counties. And like in very short distances, the difference different peak was like 20 versus almost 60 miles an hour.
Plant People: Wow.
Alexis : Yeah.
brett: and Like very, very tiny, you know, within a county within, you know, and that was pretty, i mean, it's exactly to that point. And I think the... there's There's also like a personality element to growing stuff and doing stuff that like whether you are the type of person to over love something or under love something or whether you're the type of person who's like checking on it every day or you're the person who.
brett: has a little bit more of neglectful distance from what you're doing or whether you are the type of person who's going to be in the books all the time, writing stuff out and and making notes and and comparing across time. Or you're the type of person who's like, I'm going to take the holistic experience and write a lot of it off to variation. variation Like over time, you start to settle into who you are and what you're good at and what you like to do.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: And i think and sometimes I think sometimes the imposter syndrome isn't unreal, actually. It's like you're feeling the tension of trying to be someone that you're not.
Jessica : Exactly.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah.
brett: And it's like, actually, you are being an imposter because you are not good at this. You don't enjoy it
Alexis : Not being true to yourself.
brett: And you are failing. like This isn't this isn't some you haven't miscalculated, but it's just kind of like maybe that that isn't for me.
Alexis : Yeah.
brett: And that's a big part of what we do with the the CCD stuff is like trying to help people find stuff that works for them. That's going to work in a market um rather than trying to come up with the idea and then build this, get people to do it around it, you know, force people into growing something that's difficult to grow.
Plant People: Just give me the recipe, Brett. I want the recipe. Just give me you the recipe.
brett: that's right What should I grow that will definitely be successful both horticulturally and economically?
Plant People: And I need the month-by-month recipe to-do list on what to do.
Alexis : if
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: yeah Yeah, I'll just put it into one of the LLMs and get get you your your game plan.
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: So do you think, I'm curious in your all's experiences as you've seen folks struggle with this some, is there, a you alluded to this, right? Is there a difference between people who are this is their first foray into farming within family memory?
brett: You know, they may be three, four or five generations removed from the farm in some cases versus people who are,
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
brett: maybe coming from agricultural backgrounds. And if they're in horticulture, they're often maybe veering away from whatever the farm was doing before. Jessica, you mentioned diversifying into things that they hadn't done before. Do you think there's a difference there of what types of things people feel some type of way about?
Jessica : Yeah, i I do from like, so I i obviously ah grew up at a farm on a farm with beef, cattle, tobacco, corn, hay, all of that. But then I've gone a completely different route to a point. Like I have cows and stuff again, right? I like like cows and all livestock. But, um you know, going in that completely different way into vegetable production, not that it's like looked upon differently, but i think it's it's a little different if you are somebody new starting off into it um and how that is viewed versus if you're coming from a more traditional perspective.
Jessica : in separating out if that is still not not not that it's not valued the same right because my argument when I like to argue with my brother about things um from his more traditional ag to like what I'm doing I'm like well did you eat today because what I'm doing is important right like I'm growing things to feed people but I think yeah there definitely is a um you know, a difference if you're just new to it, joining in versus if you're coming from already the background of it and depending on like what your family had been doing before, right?
Jessica : Like with their, their system, right?
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: yeah
Plant People: Sometimes I've heard the comment, people would make the comment, oh, come back five years, we'll see if you're still here. And that always is jarring to me when I hear, you know, in I don't hear that often, but I've heard comments kind of like that in in some circles. And I'm like, whoa, that's not very encouraging. If you're brand new your opinion, you know, if you are vocal and you are comfortable going to groups and stuff and you voice your opinion on this and that, Sometimes, you know, it's like, you know, if you're brand new, sometimes you're viewed a bit, a bit differently.
Jessica : But green, right?
Plant People: ah
Jessica : Like, yeah i guess it depends on like what their, the views are go because farming's hard, right?
Plant People: Yes. Green. Yeah. It's like,
Plant People: yeah.
Jessica : We all, we all know, like, it's hard. There's a lot of manual labor. Even if you are using a lot of mechanical stuff, like things break down and you have to fix them.
Alexis : this is
Jessica : So I think that's like the learning curve for like people who are new getting into it. um, when they see all these happy images online of frolicking, you know, through flowers, through your vegetables, through your hugging cows, you know, things, things happen with those cows.
Plant People: yeah yeah
Jessica : Right. and they So, um, so I think it's, you know, that too.
Plant People: yeah oh yeah
brett: oh
brett: Big time. Mm-hmm.
Jessica : so
Plant People: I've heard people do such a good job. and You know, farming has become specialized depending on which enterprise you're in and watch your how what your business setup is. And it's been interesting me interesting to me that some of the best growers, producers, farmers, whatever you see yourself as, and they've had to hire on labor on the farm to the point to where they have specialties on the farm. And they said, I'm not a real farmer anymore. I just sort of manage things. I'm like, well,
Plant People: And that's on the complete opposite end of things.
Alexis : They're
Plant People: They've been there. They've done that. They've done a good job, but they've had to hire on specialties.
Alexis : just bookkeeping now, they feel.
Plant People: Yeah. And they, they, and it kind of gets in their head sometimes they're like, yeah, because they love growing things.
Jessica : Thank you.
Plant People: Okay. But their operation has grown and, and maybe that applies here a little bit. Maybe it doesn't, but they, they see themselves differently.
Alexis : CEO now. Mm-hmm.
Plant People: They're more of a manager and they're like, I'm not a farmer.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: I'm just a manager. I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. We talk about farm business all the time. And that's sort of an ah an important aspect of larger operations is the farm management. it's It's an important aspect in all operations, in fact, that you're managing things.
Plant People: But because they're not out there with their hands in the dirt and their heads in the clouds, because they're not in that situation, they're maybe, you know, working the books all day or something. They see themselves different, which is an interesting thing to me because they're on the complete opposite end of the new scale.
Plant People: They're tenured and they said they're just a manager now, just a manager. Yeah, which is interesting.
brett: Yeah, i think I think that's about you know being able to conceptualize the farm operation as more than just the self, which many of these businesses started as a singular entity.
Plant People: m
brett: I mean, it is still yourself, but like when you tell someone these things need to be done and then they do it, it's kind of it's this inter, it's this social construction of, of you getting out in the dirt and harvesting the whatever, but it's, that's, it is still a hard,
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
brett: physical reality to to account for. Another thing that I've perceived, I think, particularly with people who are coming from outside of agricultural upbringing where they didn't grow up on a farm or whatever, maybe they visited their grandmother's farm or something, there will sometimes be
Plant People: Yeah.
brett: I'll say this in a positive way and then in a negative way.
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
brett: There will be an openness to doing things differently that can be really empowering because you don't have a reference.
Alexis : Oh
Alexis : yeah.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
brett: You don't have the like weight of quote unquote tradition holding you back and saying, what would grandpa say if he saw me doing this?
Plant People: Literal sacred cows.
brett: But at the same time, it it also, to me, it becomes associated with like sometimes a skepticism of some things that we talk about within extension. Like I think fruit trees are a really good example of this, that that sometimes people are just, when we tell them they're challenging in a number of ways to grow apples, for instance, are challenging to grow in Kentucky for a variety of reasons.
brett: It's like sometimes they just won't hear or believe that. ah And that, you know, if you want to grow apples for applesauce and you don't care what they look like, that's one tier.
brett: If you want the trees to survive at all, there's also that tier to to think about.
Alexis : Yeah.
brett: And and i I think that that's a really interesting, it' it's a place where that, that idea of being a farmer or or what it it means to have agricultural knowledge is like kind of contested that it's kind of like, ah well, this is just big the big ag system telling me that such and such a thing can't be done. And you all are bought by the chemical company. So of course you're telling me to, so you know, spray the chemicals.
brett: Etc. And on the other hand, reminds me of like Moneyball. You all seen in the book, the movie Moneyball or read the book Moneyball about the Oakland A's building a team around analytics instead of old school, traditional scouts.
Plant People: Thank you.
brett: It's actually very like comparable to lean data driven farming versus planting by the signs or you know something like that. It's a little more traditional.
Alexis : Armors all neck, yeah.
brett: and And they are you know pretty successful. And at one point, one of the characters says to the other that like, you were really, really successful, but the first person through the through the wall always gets bloody because you're the first person trying to push something new and push something different.
brett: So it's really hard to determine sometimes whether you are the first person through the wall doing something cool or whether you are charging forward with a crate full of snake oil that you bought from someone who told you that this is simpler than it is.
Plant People: Yes.
brett: And in both cases, what's that?
Alexis : Seeds from Etsy. It said seeds from Etsy.
brett: Seeds from Etsy.
Jessica : Right.
brett: yeah
Jessica : Yeah.
brett: i think about all the both Instagram and people who the most of their money comes from telling people how they can make a million dollars on a quarter acre or something, you know, like those types of things that you see around.
brett: And I think in both cases, like it, it's a place where what is true and what is known is like you could find people who are going to tell you both of those things are completely wrong and bad.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
brett: And so it's how would you not feel like an imposter to like try to move forward and even know the basic truth of what you're doing? And I think a lot of what we do in extension can be really helpful in that regard where, especially if if it's approached with like, we want you to be successful. That's really our only goal is to help you do things based on what we know.
brett: um But that that has always been something where or I'll hear things, you know, around from the the broader sustainable ag community, that are these real critiques of the systems that we have. And I'm, I find myself like, well, I think like I've, I've seen some of the research and I think it's pretty compelling and I've had experience with this thing and I think it's pretty compelling, but they're like yelling pretty loud. And, uh, that makes me almost want to like doubt, you know, what I know or what I've seen.
brett: um and vice versa for people to say, you know, you can't make any money and cut flowers or whatever. And it's like, well, false. Um,
Plant People: Yeah, I am.
Alexis : Psych.
Jessica : yeah
Plant People: Thank you.
brett: And so, yeah, I think that that's a that's just been ah something that's these people competing for who's right and who's wrong tends to lead some people who just want to be successful and try things and and learn and develop pushes them into like feeling like they don't know because everybody's so confident that they're right. And the reality is.
brett: based on context, based on your own personality, your own abilities, you may, it may work for you and be very careful to tell other people that it will work for them because it's not, it's not a guaranteed thing.
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: All of this that we're talking about today, I mean, it's, ah you know, we we talk a lot about, you know, mental health and farming. That's an important aspect. And farming a lot of other occupations and just in general. But because your identity the identity is oftentimes so tied up, you know, in the concept that it's not just a job.
Plant People: You actually live a lot of times where you farm and you don't go home from the farm. The farm is always with you. I mean, it's an important talk we've had today.
Alexis : And.
Plant People: on multiple levels, but it goes back to identity and how you see yourself and ah and all the impact that that that that has on not only your operation, but your family and you personally.
Plant People: So it's an important concept and a topic today.
brett: Well, in the direct marketing world, we actively tell people that people want to buy from you, from your face, from your identity, from your farm. And so it's not only that your whole job is tied up in it, but now you also have this like billboard that is your face and identity that people associate with it. When they interact with you, they expect you to be that person. And it's it's just very it's very easy and clear to see how some how it ends up being a little bit of a...
brett: a tricky thing to keep up all the time and to not have those moments of feeling like, man, I am not who people think I am, or I am not the person to speak. But I think that's an honest engagement with the struggle.
Plant People: Thank you.
brett: And I think a lot ah most successful people I know at some point or another have questioned themselves at least, am I the right person for this? Or should I even be doing this?
brett: And I think the more that we talk about it, the more normal it feels.
Jessica : I know I can share too from like, if you are somebody who's starting out and you've been in the game for a couple of years with it, time goes by faster than we think. And I know my husband and I have experiences where somebody eventually said to us one day, they're like, well, you're one of the bigger growers at the market. And I was like, oh no, we're we're not. we're We're not a bigger grower at the market.
Jessica : But then, you know, the more I thought about it, it was like, oh, wait, we've been around a while. Oh, wait, we have we have built over time.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Jessica : And so, yeah, we were at first, you know, so many years ago. But I think um as a person who often does this to themselves with their own farming business, you know, give yourself a little grace with it.
Jessica : And you probably are, you know, don't be an imposter to yourself with your farming
Alexis : And if someone asks you to speak because they think you're awesome and they want you to share your knowledge, if you would like to share your knowledge, don't believe, like, don't believe that little voice in your head that says you can't do this or why would they ask you?
Alexis : You're not any good at this or whatever. Like, they're not going to go out of their way to make themselves look silly if you don't actually know what you're talking about. Like, come on. Like, they're asking you for a reason. So, like, believe them, um you know, in that in that way.
Jessica : Thank you.
Alexis : so Just like a little tidbit. We talk with farmers a lot and ask them for, you know, interviews and we have them on here and all that kind of stuff. And they always tell us that. And we're just like, why would it I in my aggressive manner?
Alexis : I'm always like, why would I waste my time asking you if I didn't believe in you? Like, just saying, just throwing it out there. So believe in yourself, damn it.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah. Do it.
brett: Yeah, and I didn't really share my my own imposter story, but like I think i i feel it about a lot of things. I'm just sort of aware
Jessica : Thank
brett: Aware of how much I don't know and how much there is to know and all of those types of things. And i I, think I am in fact an imperfect person to speak in a situation or to do certain things. But what I've learned over time, observing people who are in positions of power is that they too are imperfect and,
brett: fraudulent to some extent in the same way that I am.
Alexis : We all are.
Plant People: head
brett: And so, so for me, it's not so much, I'm not an imposter. It's that everybody's making it up as they go and figuring it out.
Plant People: We'll be perfectly imperfect with everybody else.
brett: And, and, and there is a core,
Alexis : If everybody's imposter, is anybody?
brett: like Well, exactly. and there, there, there could, there's a core of knowledge and experience and other things. This is why I would come to you all about plant questions. Like there, it's not like it's an, everybody's just a complete fraud and everyone's lying, but like not every, everyone, no one is as perfect as, as their title might demand or suggest. And it's the same way with, with the rest of us. So like working on yourself, improving yourself, feeling like I'm a better version myself today than I was yesterday.
brett: is how I've tried to approach it rather than trying to say, you're not an imposter. I'm like, you are an imposter, bro. And all of us are, it's called society.
Alexis : And everybody's believing me about it.
Jessica : yeah
brett: That's right.
Alexis : Mwahaha.
brett: That's right.
Alexis : You fooled them all. Tell yourself that. Just be like, i've I've fooled them all. Now I need to convince myself. but
brett: Just go in with the, with the confidence of a bald man and you will come out a winner.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Fake it till you make it. Fake it till you make it.
Alexis : Well, awesome. ah We hope this was helpful. um I think we've all experienced that. So maybe you just feel less alone and in that area. So if you've got any thoughts or comments or tell us how you have felt like an imposter, you know, leave it in the show notes when you give us five stars, hopefully giving us five stars.
Alexis : It does help people find our show. So we do appreciate it. ah We also would love to know, ah we're thinking of a Halloween episode already.
Plant People: Thank you.
Alexis : And we are thinking of some poisonous plants. So are there any plants that maybe you grow or you want to know more about? ah Shoot us an email. ah That is in the show notes.
Alexis : You can also DM us on Instagram at Hort Culture Podcast. Send us your info for poisonous plants. We want to talk ah more about them. We know Halloween is in the future, but, you know, it all comes around a lot faster these days than we think.
Plant People: It's never too soon to be spooky.
brett: In Alexis's heart, it's Halloween every day.
Plant People: Never too soon.
Alexis : ah You know, it's always poison plant season, baby.
Plant People: Yes.
Alexis : But we appreciate you guys being here with us and we hope you will join us next time.
Plant People: It is.
Alexis : Have a great one.
