Transcript
Brett: Welcome. Welcome to all of our listeners. Welcome to my co-hosts, Ray, Jessica, and Alexis.
Plant People: Welcome good people. It's in your best radio voice.
Brett: How are you all doing?
Jessica : Welcome.
Plant People: Good. It's a good day. It's a good day to be good on.
Brett: Yeah?
Alexis : I feel very welcome to be here today.
Plant People: Very welcomed.
Brett: Well, I'm glad that you feel welcome to be here today. ah You're welcome for that. ah
Plant People: You're welcome.
Brett: i So i have a question I have a question I'd like to ask you all.
Jessica : yeah.
Plant People: Oh, we need a question. Yeah. Convo question.
Brett: Yeah, so what is... something nice, like it doesn't have be the nicest thing, but something nice that you recently bought for yourself. That's just made your day a little brighter life, a little better.
Brett: It can be something simple, like some food, or it can be something more like, Oh, you know, I wanted a bag.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: And so I got this bag or, okay, Jessica's got boom on.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: a
Brett: Ooh, I'm in the market. So tell me, Jessica, for those listening is holding up a, what would you call that? A tumbler, a tall tumbler. Give me the, give me the rundown.
Jessica : Sure.
Brett: Give me the specs.
Jessica : it says It's a non-fancy but does-the-job coffee, portable coffee tumbler that I can say is a good one because this morning I couldn't find it before I left and somebody had moved it and it was completely upside down the floor and ah no coffee was s leaking out of it.
Alexis : this
Jessica : But it's...
Brett: So it's kind of like ah a seafoam green, about eight inches tall, probably a two and a half, three inch diameter for those listening at home.
Jessica : Yes.
Brett: It's made of steel, I assume.
Jessica : it's Yes, it is. All I asked for for Christmas was I said I needed a new travel coffee.
Plant People: Very heavy.
Jessica : mug my five-year-old tried to relate this to his dad and he kept telling his dad that my mom just wants a coffee cup with a lid and his dad took that as like a paper coffee cup with the lid and was like we're not getting your mother that instead I got two other really nice coffee mugs that were really fancy with big handles um so after Christmas I got myself this and And it has brought me much joy.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: There you go.
Jessica : And my son ah saw it. He took it out of the box. He put it behind himself. And then he came to me and said, look what I got you for Christmas. And um so it's a great present.
Plant People: Oh, thank you.
Brett: ah like that.
Plant People: And he said, thank you.
Brett: you He re-gifted your gift to you.
Jessica : him He ripped it.
Plant People: Yes.
Jessica : Yes, he did. Something simple.
Plant People: He's learned early.
Brett: That's good.
Alexis : You remembered you wanted it.
Brett: That's smooth.
Plant People: He's learned early.
Alexis : I think that's important.
Plant People: He's smart.
Brett: Yeah, he knew that you wanted it.
Jessica : Yes, he did.
Plant People: He's thinking. He's thinking. He said, how can I go wrong with this?
Alexis : Listener.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : so so something simple, but it's been good.
Plant People: How about you, Brett? You have something in mind? I'll take it.
Brett: Um, no, no this not necessarily.
Plant People: little something, little something, something.
Brett: Um, I bought, I bought a ah couple of small, uh, like misting humidifiers, uh, for around the plants, particularly houseplants.
Plant People: Yeah? Okay. Okay.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brett: And they, they seem to be liking that and enjoying that. Uh, it's kind of a fun vibe to has actually be able to see the mist coming up. Um, so those have been kind of fun.
Brett: um And i've been I've been carrying chapstick more often. I didn't buy it for myself, but I mean, I guess I did. Yeah, I mean, I did, but yeah, I'm an adult.
Alexis : At some point.
Brett: I'm an adult. I bought it at some point.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Brett: But ah that's been a real plus up. I'm not a big chapstick guy, but I've been feeling dry lately.
Plant People: I mean, chapstick is like mugs.
Brett: I guess i guess that's my see that's my theme is just being dry and trying to hydrate.
Plant People: They get fancy.
Jessica : Yeah.
Plant People: Being desiccated.
Brett: Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Brett brett is desiccated. do You have a new thing.
Jessica : Do you go for a a certain type or flavor? My kids in their Christmas stockings this year got Sour Patch Kids chapstick, and they think that's the coolest thing ever.
Alexis : like they're going to eat that.
Brett: Wow.
Jessica : it has been confiscated, though, and placed up high, so they can only request it now to put it on and not just eat the chapstick.
Plant People: Okay. They can only eat so much at a time.
Jessica : But did you you branch out?
Brett: um I mean, I just were i just wear Burt's Bees, ah you know, and put on my toms and listen to Blink-182 to just feel young.
Jessica : Oh.
Brett: there you go.
Jessica : I mean, that's what I do every day, so.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: Dance off in the kitchen.
Brett: oh
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: yeah
Plant People: Gotta rock on.
Brett: What about y'all?
Plant People: It's.
Brett: Anybody else got anything?
Plant People: Compute.
Alexis : i got I got rechargeable batteries.
Plant People: Usually. Yeah. Go ahead.
Alexis : Does that count?
Plant People: Hmm. Actually, that's kind of nice, Alexis.
Brett: I mean, you tell me how it's affecting your life.
Alexis : I'm, I'm pretty, I'm actually pretty stoked about it because I hate not having but like batteries in the house.
Plant People: That's kind of nice.
Alexis : And so now I have all these rechargeable batteries and the the charger does double A's and triple A's.
Jessica : Very nice.
Alexis : So like, I'm i' am always going to have the ability to have a fresh battery in the house.
Brett: Hmm.
Plant People: Very nice. And
Alexis : And that's clutch for me.
Plant People: and as expensive as batteries are, i mean, awesome.
Brett: such a practical Such a practical plus up.
Plant People: Awesome. That is an awesome glow up. Yes. I mean, that's something to get excited about.
Alexis : I'm a practical, i like practical use things, so.
Brett: Yeah.
Jessica : Right.
Brett: Ray, you got anything?
Plant People: I was trying to think. I did get some DDR5 RAM. I usually build a computer every winter just because it's something I do. And I saw the RAM apocalypse coming. and Those of you that follow the tech forums, all of the world's fast access memory is being taken up. Well, I purchased this, didn't need it, but I was like, if I'm going to build a new build, I'd need some DDR5 RAM.
Plant People: Purchased it for $70 and now that gets $500.
Jessica : I have no idea.
Brett: Ray, you you have this whole, like, it when I hear you talk, it's like a worlds collide because literally no one else in my orbit has any idea what you're talking about.
Plant People: I make up stuff.
Plant People: Josh not did.
Brett: And i I have also been plugged in.
Plant People: Josh, Josh was a fan of that.
Brett: Yeah, that's true. That's true. We kicked him out to Vermont, unfortunately.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah. We, yeah, you exported him.
Brett: But but yeah, the forums all over the place were blowing up ah anti-AI sentiment, anti-NVIDIA sentiment, anti-everything sentiment because a lot of these things for normal people are getting diverted to other applications for big customers who can pay more money and all that kind of stuff.
Alexis : You
Plant People: So I'm worried. I'm nervous now.
Plant People: Yeah. Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Yes.
Brett: And so, so wow, that is like...
Plant People: I jumped on board, man. I told every friend I had, I said, buy your graphics processing unit now, which has on board fast access memory. And your DDR5 RAM if you're using a new motherboard.
Plant People: So I convinced everybody.
Brett: I'm so tickled by this.
Plant People: so that But normally I would not have, that would have been an indulgence, but I purchased and I justified that to Jennifer. I said, I spent this much, but if I'd have waited two weeks, it would have been this much.
Plant People: And I don't think she was proud of me, but she tolerated me.
Brett: So basically, I got it for free.
Plant People: So, you know, yeah.
Alexis : Girl math.
Jessica : Girl math. yeah
Plant People: Yeah, girl math. I did girl math. on And I think she was confused by that because I totally did girl math. So yes, exactly.
Brett: I like that.
Alexis : She was like, oh no, he caught on to my math.
Plant People: That was my indulgence. Yes. I was like, I got a good deal. And, you know, I did. So, yeah.
Jessica : So coffee mugs to computer things that I don't understand.
Brett: Just a vibes-based economy out there.
Plant People: It is. It is vibe-based.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Yeah, I'm out.
Plant People: I mean, the mugs, yes, exciting.
Alexis : and I'm happy for you.
Plant People: The humidifier, exciting. The batteries, very exciting to me. i mean I mean, all these things are, you guys are kind of cool.
Jessica : We're really cool.
Plant People: like that. Yeah.
Brett: Well, here's my question for you.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : I'm happy if you're happy.
Jessica : Yeah.
Brett: Here's my question for you. Do you recall when you purchased that item, were you charged a fee? What did you pay for it with a credit card or did you buy it with cash? And if you did, were you charged a fee to use your credit card?
Plant People: I just assumed since it said free shipping that it would have the fee built in hidden.
Jessica : And around...
Plant People: I mean, I'm just saying.
Jessica : girl Girl math again. i used my Amazon points.
Plant People: Oh.
Jessica : So it was free, right?
Plant People: Oh, power move.
Brett: Okay.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: Power move. Okay.
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: Free.
Brett: So you order ordered on Amazon.
Plant People: Totally free.
Jessica : I did.
Brett: Yeah, yeah. So so they they are are currently not charging a fee. So even better deal, basically, what I'm trying to tell you.
Alexis : So free.
Plant People: A fee that you can see.
Jessica : Free free. Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah. Sure.
Brett: but So when i when I venture out into the state ah to talk to people about a variety of things, one of the presentations we used to do through the Marketing for All curriculum is accepting more than just cash.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: And I make my pitch. Some people are into it. Some people aren't. And frequently people just get really mad about the fees associated with accepting credit cards. They just get real mad about it.
Brett: And as if I'm the one imposing the fees often, and I'm just like, I'm i'm not. But my pitch to them is, we'll get into that later, but back before Christmas, we were riding around and Annie and I were talking and she said like, man, it just seems like a lot more businesses are charging credit card fees now.
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: Like at point of purchase, you get up there and it's boom, your $5 thing is now $5 plus 5% 3% or whatever. five percent or three percent or whatever
Plant People: Hmm.
Jessica : I don't.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: is that does that Does that resonate with your all's experience? Is that something that you have noticed or seen?
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: I've just seen fees overall, swap fees, and but but fees that are, I don't know if it's a rule change or what, but I'm starting at, maybe I've just started noticing those or maybe there's been a rule change.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: I don't know, but ah but I do notice now I try to pay more attention when there's these fees on there.
Jessica : and
Jessica : I know if it's like with the cost increase of everything, fees that businesses once, you know, used to just eat themselves, you know, like they would just, and now they can now they can't justify.
Plant People: oh Yeah. Yeah.
Brett: Yeah. well we'll We'll get into some hypotheses here. Yeah.
Jessica : right.
Plant People: Okay. ah I'm excited about this.
Brett: so So here's another question. We'll just get a little bit of data on the table before I share some other stuff from other places. did that make you more Does that make you more likely to buy in cash instead?
Plant People: No, absolutely not.
Alexis : No.
Brett: Do you carry cash?
Jessica : a
Alexis : Right, yeah, I don't usually have enough cash for what I'm purchasing.
Plant People: I don't pay cash, yeah. I would have to make a lifestyle change.
Jessica : I live with somebody who carries cash. So
Plant People: Because i don't think pockets, I don't think are designed for heavy weight of copious amounts of coins anymore.
Jessica : i
Brett: So does Annie. All
Plant People: I mean, it's a that's a big that's a big ask to go back to cash.
Brett: all right. One more question. One more question. did Does seeing that that business is charging a fee for you to use a credit card, does it affect your opinion of that business?
Alexis : No.
Plant People: and Somewhat. it It makes me aware. It raises my awareness level that there might be other fees that I need to watch out for. but it Yeah.
Jessica : I guess it depends on how big the fee is.
Brett: Mm.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: and Okay.
Plant People: Or if I've not ran into the fee at all before and they're the first, then I will remember that they were the first that I recognized to charge me a fee.
Brett: Well, I,
Plant People: I mean, but as far as dissuading me, i would i mean, if it was a good deal, it's a good deal.
Brett: Yeah, I have, well, I have some, I have some data here to to share from this this thing that I wrote.
Plant People: Whatever was supposed to say.
Brett: And if you if you want to read the article, it's pretty short. It's over and on ccd.uky.edu. We have news items on our main page with lots of different stuff, updates, including our presentations from recent conferences.
Brett: And we also have this little short article and ah Alexis wrote a really nice article about prepping your high tunnel and and stuff for, for snow and for cold temperatures and stuff like that.
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Brett: So if you ever are looking for some interesting news, you can either follow us on social or or go and pick it up over there. But anyway, so, In 2021, as of 2021, the estimate was that small business among small businesses, about 5% of them were charging a credit card fee of some sort to their customer at checkout.
Brett: As of 2025, anyone care to guess the percentage number? it was five percent
Plant People: 25%. Take that, Alexis. Yeah. 26%. twenty five percent
Brett: 34% of businesses are now are now charging credit card fees.
Plant People: take that alexis
Brett: So what that tells me is, you know, I'm i'm trying to do,
Alexis : We're both over, so
Plant People: twenty six
Alexis : neither of us would go
Brett: it it ah it makes me think, okay, yeah, there is something to this, like noticing that it has gotten to be more and that it is a case now where people are charging that.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: And The thing is, like i think part of it is that our our out in the agricultural community, people are they're just different kinds of businesses, different kinds of clientele. The vibe is different. i would I would suspect that more agricultural producers were probably charging fees before as compared to other kinds of businesses. But like in the old days, the reality was that you were getting charged a credit card fee.
Brett: It was just built into the cost of goods and services. And if you paid cash, you were paying part of a credit card fee for somebody else.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: I mean, in reality, that's kind of how how you might look at it if you were in favor of it or whatever.
Alexis : Right.
Plant People: Oh, hmm.
Brett: um So I'm curious, Jessica, you started ah thinking a little bit about why. why do you Why do you all think it might be?
Brett: There isn't a right answer. This is all you know kind of thinking.
Plant People: You mean the increase?
Alexis : that more people That more people are charging?
Jessica : I guess that was just my, yeah, was
Brett: why more businesses are charging this.
Jessica : That would just be my first initial thought was like, well, the price of ah you guys farmer's market standpoint, like, right. If we start charging a credit card fee, like price of seeds have gone up, right.
Jessica : Price of you know, other input material, all of that has gone up price of even like maybe vendor fees have gone up and then something to offset, you know, to offset that.
Plant People: Yeah. I'm kind of curious what what would drive that. Would it be that swap fees themselves have increased or is it the overall cost of doing business?
Jessica : Right. Right.
Plant People: Because I remember, and you brought up a great point there, kind of a subtle point, Brett. ah Years ago, the first time I ever noticed this being a thing was at a gas station. When I was traveling, I started noticing that certain gas stations, this is the price of cash and this is the price of a gallon of gas if you use a credit card. And the two were different. And I got to thinking about that and I thought,
Plant People: maybe that's a a good equitable way of doing swap fees because that, you know, doesn't charge the ones paying cash, you know, that fee. It doesn't levy the fee on everyone, in other words.
Plant People: ah But yeah, I'm most curious what drives that.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: And i mean, um you know, we'd love to hear the kind of the psychology or the information, the planning behind, like, is it better to build the fee in or just to kind of show it and be transparent about it I'd love to kind of know more about that.
Brett: yeah
Brett: Well, I think one of the things that's tricky is you're never coming from like a vacuum. You're never coming from people who've never purchased anything before. And now here's this fee.
Brett: And I was thinking about and it.
Jessica : I don't
Brett: and It feels, you know, if you've traveled internationally, um like some places like like in Europe, for instance, there are really pretty strict laws about the way that your receipt needs to be itemized and show how the tax is included.
Brett: And that like even your advertised price has to include tax, the VAT, on the front end so that like the customer doesn't get there and say, wait a second, it's this plus 6% or 8% or whatever.
Plant People: Interesting.
Alexis : There's no surprise.
Brett: And it feels in a way, the idea of like having the fee itemized out feels very not, you know American typical experience, you know, purchase experience.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: And in that regard, I think some of the people who are consumer advocates would say, it's actually great to have the fee broken out so you can see the entire cost of everything that you're paying for.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: um We'll come back to that in a second. But the um I think one of the big things people point to is, in fact, the effect of inflation, the and the effect of some political ah interventions on driving prices up or making you know availability of things more expensive.
Brett: And you you even see Some businesses will itemize out like a tariff fee or a tariff charge to just to show. And I think that to me cuts through to businesses don't want to necessarily raise the price of an item and give the impression that it's their fault that it's happening.
Alexis : who
Alexis : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brett: You know, like if you were if you were paying $3 for tomatoes and now tomatoes are $3.25, I don't want you to think that I'm getting greedy and I'm taking all that money.
Alexis : Yeah. Right.
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Gotcha.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: ah There's like a sticker shock psychology there, I think, that that plays into it. ah but But largely, it's that things are going up, businesses want to cut costs. And it's a theoretically, i think in theory, it's a way to cut costs and try to incentivize different behavior.
Brett: Whether it actually works out that way is an entirely different question.
Plant People: almost feel like it's a gotcha when I see that on a bill and I wasn't, because more don't than than do at this point when I see it, I'm like, oh, oh, a fee I didn't anticipate because, you know, that wasn't advertised on the sticker.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: I'm used to calculating sort of the 6%, you know, local sales tax in my head or whatever. But yeah, that's a gotcha thing. So it could work for and against you, I guess, couldn't it?
Brett: Yeah. Well, you say you're used to it. And I think that is one of the most important pieces in the puzzle because you all all said, no don't carry cash.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Brett: I you know live with some old guy who carries it. But other than that, you know we don't really have it.
Jessica : Yeah.
Alexis : so she's fifty
Brett: So some estimates say that 81% of consumers prefer using a card.
Plant People: Oh, yeah.
Alexis : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Plant People: I'm surprised it's that low, really.
Brett: And generally speaking, ah the eight, the old, the younger, the the group gets the more likely they are to pay with a card instead of cash or some sort of electronic payment instead of cash, which means if you implement a fee,
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: that's now new, you are going to hit four out of every five customers with a fee that they didn't experience before. Like, I think if you had made this intervention 15 years ago, 20 years ago, it's a different conversation altogether, maybe, but we have moved so far in this direction that um the other the other piece, and we we can talk about this in a second, but people do tend tend to spend more money when they use a card than if they have cash, because it's ah theoretically a much bigger pool of assets they can access.
Plant People: Hmm.
Alexis : okay
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Jessica : Yes.
Alexis : Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Brett: But you You mentioned, Ray, um that eighty s that ah you you sometimes feel like a gotcha. And so here's another statistic from some studies about this, that 87% of Americans say that they feel nickel and dimed by transaction fees.
Plant People: That's kind of where I was at a little bit.
Alexis : yeah
Plant People: that i It's a little fee that I just wasn't on my radar until it was right in front of me.
Brett: Yeah, a number of years ago, the the fees were actually not legal. And then there was a lapse back in the 80s and some stuff. And there was some class action stuff that happened in 20 teens. So it's it's been a while, but there was a point and 57% of people still think that they should be illegal.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: 57%
Plant People: 50% of the people think that the phase, what goes in?
Alexis : yeah
Brett: of people who were polled thought they think that these types of transaction fees should be illegal.
Plant People: I guess with the rise of all the different systems, and I know you guys have done some work on this, Brett, like the different swipe systems and softwares and hardware systems, that I expect that that has to be paid for somehow, you know, to maintain those systems.
Brett: Yeah.
Plant People: So I realized from a practical standpoint in the back of my brain that that money has to come from somewhere. either they charge a bunch up front. or they sell the equipment at a subsidized cost and they get it on the back end for swap fees or or whatever their business model is.
Plant People: It's got to be funded. So I realize that there's all these systems, but at the same time, i mean, it's ah kind of a weird thing in my head, the fee.
Brett: Yeah.
Alexis : Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Okay.
Brett: Oh, I think a lot of the a lot of the but the reality is that that like with everything, small scale, medium scale, and large scale are kind of completely different ah sets of considerations.
Brett: So if you're only processing 500 swipes in the course of a year, you may be more likely to see that your fees are all kind of flat, they're all the same, they're all predictable.
Alexis : and
Brett: When you get up to larger scales of processing, the rates can be kind of different and they can even be different by the type of card, ah the type ah even even within like a Visa, MasterCard, whatever, within that, if you have like a super rewards card,
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Hmm.
Brett: In some cases, the banks actually may charge more of a fee for that to be used than others.
Jessica : you
Brett: And so it's like this war on you get your rewards for your spending, but the merchant pays more. And so um actually, ah target even Target and Walmart are jumping in and thinking about charging fees for some things more than others.
Brett: So this isn't just like a you know small business niche consideration.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Brett: As of right now, I don't think they are, but they're starting to think about, OK, how is this hitting us?
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: How are we you know playing with this? I think in general, most of the folks that I see and interact with it ah in Kentucky, at least, who are doing a lot of direct sales, they tend to be at the smaller end of the spectrum. They may be using something like Square or some other kind of an interface.
Brett: And I pulled it just real quick. So with, with square, if you have the free one right now, they charge you 15, 15 cent charge plus 2.6% for their free account.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: And if you have paid accounts, the amount goes down. Um, in some cases, I think the fees could be higher than that. And again, if you get to a certain volume of swipes, uh, there's the the game kind of changes and you have different conversations, but, uh,
Brett: You know, one of my arguments for, okay, that does suck. It does suck to pay for something that that you're not getting any that's just going to a middleman, whatever. But coming back around to that idea of why we might want to accept cards.
Brett: One is if people don't carry cash at all, we're not getting their business if we don't accept the card.
Plant People: yeah
Alexis : Right.
Jessica : Right.
Brett: But the other is, if I am trying to control my, so I refer to this as reverse Dave Ramsey-ing our customers. um So Dave Ramsey says, pay for everything in cash. Don't have a credit card because if you have a credit card, you're going to spend more, which is true, but we want that.
Brett: We want our splurge purchases.
Alexis : this she says
Brett: So if i if I go to the to the but local farm market or something like that, and I take $40 in cash in my pocket, and start getting stuff, and I realize I've picked up $88 worth of stuff,
Brett: if I got no card and you take no card, I'm putting back $48 of that at the very least.
Alexis : Right.
Brett: and Maybe more.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: Now I'm second guessing it. Now I'm not impulse spending. And so the one thing that I always thought talked about a little bit is you have to weigh the way that it allows you to access more purchases, moving more volume against the fee.
Brett: And so if it's 5%, a 5% fee, which is higher than what most people are going to be paying right now, at least. and you sell 50% more or a hundred percent more, you gotta kind of do that math.
Plant People: yeah
Brett: And obviously there's costs associated with those additional products. It's not just pure profit, but in general, in a business, you wanna be moving product and moving product is ah having people access a limitless amount of money or a you know higher amount of money than what you're gonna be charging to be able to buy stuff from you is ah is a foot up.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Jessica : I can definitely, for experience with farmer's market, seeing the difference between when we were not taking credit cards, just because like it was just starting to roll out more, you know, making it easier, an easier way to have credit cards and stuff. ah But at the end of the year, looking back when you can get on like Square or whatever you use and you can on their site, break it down to exactly how much fees you paid over the year, you know,
Jessica : that fee, uh, it's, it's, it's not that like, it might be a big chunk, but it's worth that chunk, that investment for that fee, because the against your increases sales.
Brett: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Cause you were judging that against the sales or increase in sales probably.
Jessica : Cause what we have seen is if they have a credit card, like you said, it tends to be like, Oh, well I'll take, get some beef.
Plant People: o
Jessica : Oh, well let me add some honey to that. Let me add this. Let me add that, you know, versus, ah
Alexis : higher price items
Jessica : I gave my kids $5 in cash to go, you know, and like, what is, you know, what are they going what are they going to get? What are they going to pick out? And that limits, you know, what they can get at the farmer's market, which may be three or four onions or could be freeze dried Jolly Ranchers.
Jessica : So
Brett: Yeah. And I think sometimes you'll see that the the bigger the purchase especially with some of like the square amounts that I said, where it's 15 cents per swipe.
Brett: Well, 15 cents on a $5 purchase is very different from 15 cents on a $50 purchase or a $500 purchase.
Plant People: Yeah, yeah.
Jessica : Mm-hmm. huh
Brett: And so you will see people sometimes implement a, you know, $5 limit or $10 limit or whatever for credit card purchases.
Plant People: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: And I, you know i think there's positives and minuses to that. um But, you know, one of the things that I asked you all earlier, did did you all have, like, if you see that you're charged a fee, do you have any sort of,
Brett: Does that make you feel some type of way about the vendor? and you all And you all said sort of no, no, sort of, I think was our are our our are panel here.
Plant People: Yeah, I was a sort of freshman.
Brett: Well, you all are significantly less petty than the participants in this study, which found that 70% of retail shoppers and 72% of restaurant customers say that a fee hurt their view of that business.
Plant People: I don't like surprises.
Jessica : I think if it is visible, like, you know, like you're going, that fee is clearly visible.
Plant People: Yes.
Jessica : It's not a surprise.
Plant People: Fed up front.
Jessica : Like if, yeah, that's the difference.
Plant People: Yep.
Jessica : At least for me, it is like that. I know like if I'm getting ready.
Brett: how How would you go about making it visible and clear?
Jessica : I think as a, like at a farmer's market booth, having the sign put up, like right in front of where you have your cash box, where you keep your, your, square reader, you know, all of that, have it very clear out in the front, a convenience fee, you know, um or like if you're at a restaurant, if them having it on a menu, you know, having it there where you can clearly see it.
Plant People: Like a convenience fee or swap fee or something, whatever you want to call it Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica : I think it's when you go to purchase something and then after they've already swiped or, you know, or they're taking your card, then say, Hey, by the way, there's also, you know, this fee on it.
Jessica : That's where it gets icky. Yeah.
Plant People: That's like when you buy a car and there's all these fees that's not, it's not the, what they, well, here's what you're going to pay per month.
Alexis : It's like when, mm-hmm.
Jessica : right The
Plant People: Then you get in to do the loan and they're like, no, no, no, no. Here's the other $150 a month miscellaneous fees.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: That always kills me. And you know, that, but it's the knowing. If I know it up front and I feel like, you know, then it's different.
Alexis : I can mentally prepare myself.
Plant People: And yes, I can mentally prepare myself, but yeah, it's becoming more common.
Jessica : processset and the processing fees that you get for like tickets or, you know, like...
Plant People: That helps.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Yeah.
Jessica : that are really expensive.
Plant People: Oh, the yeah, just, well, and you said in some fees like that or or resort fees or just whatever when it seems like there's a lot of different kinds of fees and maybe that's what we're picking up on you all is it's just another fee and it adds to the weight.
Alexis : Yeah.
Jessica : Yeah. or digit For digital, you know, stuff.
Plant People: Maybe that's what's showing up in that survey you referenced, Brett. That we're, there's fees for everything. Now, the fees we're talking about today are smaller, much more, probably in most cases, much more reasonable, much more logical.
Plant People: But, you know, people encounter fees for all sorts of things, whether it's an Airbnb or just going down and buying some gas or whatever. So maybe it's that unknown, it's an unknown factor for me that does it.
Brett: Well, I'll point out first, if I were doing a focus group for a marketing firm, I would immediately throw you three out as way too rational to not to represent the American consumer.
Plant People: you want You want more knee-jerk radical.
Brett: Mm-hmm.
Alexis : Well, you also you're also talking to people who use these businesses.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : So like I feel like I'm...
Plant People: if We've already made the considerations.
Alexis : My opinion is like going to be different because i I pay these fees personally, you know, every swipe.
Plant People: do You guys have. Yeah. Yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Alexis : So it's it's a different.
Plant People: But do you charge those fee forward, though?
Alexis : No, not at the moment.
Plant People: Oh.
Jessica : Same.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: but So I think that's the the tension is that, is that there's this, like, we, we want to do this thing and be transparent, but actually we see that a lot of people react to that transparency in a negative light because, you know, I said 70 something percent have a negative view.
Plant People: so you Okay. Okay.
Brett: And then on top of that, 86% said they had a negative view if, if they had not experienced fees before. So if it was like a new fee, it would, they were even more mad about it.
Plant People: Yes. Yes.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: I could totally see that.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Yes.
Brett: And so that's
Plant People: As you get used to things, it's different. It's different. Yeah.
Brett: So so the um the through line, I think, ah is that you got to make a decision based on your business, how much money you're making, oh how you want to handle that interaction.
Brett: ah For me, especially, i would almost certainly be selling in an urban setting where it's like a non-negotiable thing and you have people with maybe higher incomes who are able to just put, don't think of anything about putting a couple hundred bucks on the credit card.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: that it's gonna outweigh the fees in a small, in a most small bidding business settings. But so ah another way of thinking about this, another way that people have approached it is is by offering instead of a fee for credit cards to offer a discount for using cash.
Brett: So this is the, cause, cause I think even if you have a signup, even if you have a, you know, clear information, even if you have whatever people are not gonna, most customers aren't gonna read that.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: It's the same people.
Alexis : I think.
Brett: You can have your signage everywhere. Where's the bathroom? Where's the signage everywhere? You know, how do I get to the hay rides? It's just, that's just part of doing business with people who are coming to give you money. is that they're not going to read and then they're goingnna be mad.
Brett: And at the point of sale, there's going to be a little bit of friction in that interaction caused by me asking you, are you paying credit card or cash?
Jessica : you
Brett: And I had this recently where someone asked me, are you paying credit card or cash? And I said, well, does it matter? And they said, well, offer. And of course, there was a sign.
Brett: I didn't read it because I'm a dumb consumer like the ones I'm telling you about that.
Plant People: Thank you.
Brett: They do assess a fee on the credit card. Now, I like Sean ah come from the 19th century where we carried around cash. ah And so we so I had cash and I just paid cash instead.
Brett: And that was fine. um But it was like 50 something dollars. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't like a $5 purchase and most people were probably not go to carrying around 50 something and in cash flex.
Brett: Yeah,
Alexis : i would say I was like, baller.
Jessica : yeah
Alexis : Baller.
Brett: that's right. Do you accept $1,000 bills, sir? ah
Plant People: Got 10 of those right here.
Alexis : Baller.
Brett: But I think that the cash discount it's, you're, you're still to have that friction where you ask somebody, are they paying for it in cash? Are they paying for it in credit? But you get to say, you can actually pay me less money if you give me cash.
Plant People: It's a discount instead of a fee.
Brett: Rather than, yeah.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: And I think I was trying to think about like where that would be a pain in the butt. I think it would be a huge pain in the butt if you were, if you had a huge amount of physical inventory that you were going to have to reprice in order to change the price and rather, rather than just changing it in your system of like, okay, we're going to start assessing this fee on top.
Alexis : yeah
Brett: I have to go around, like if you had a small grocery store or something like that. If everything's digital, it's still a little bit of a pain, um but I think the the way that you would do it is you would kind of follow the trend of the old school system of including the fee in a normal price increase of the base level product.
Alexis : yeah
Jessica : you
Brett: and then chart then give the the thing back. And so um generally speaking, you might expect this, maybe maybe wouldn't, people tended to prefer ah cash discount and they tend to have a better experience with that than they do with being assessed a fee.
Alexis : Hmm.
Brett: And in fact, I asked you all if they if they ding you, does it make you do anything different?
Alexis : Hmm.
Brett: and you all said no, um which is, i think, very fair. But ah actually, cash discounts have been shown to increase the odds by 19% that people will will go ahead and pay in cash.
Brett: And so it does it does constitute a little bit of a nudge, not a huge nudge, but one that can kind of help reorient the way that you're ah you're being perceived and being explained.
Brett: i think I think there's other issues around transparency of like stuff's gotten more expensive and that's why we're raising our prices.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: And I think in general, a lot of people in in Kentucky that I interact with are are kind of far off on their prices anyway. They're probably behind on raising their prices, much less to do so to reflect the crazy last you know five five to six years of costs, cost increases as well as inflation.
Plant People: Yeah, too cheap.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: So Yeah. So i i kind of proposed that as something that in the way, I guess the way that I would do it too is if I was thinking about the cash discount I would probably price like let's say I have ah you know a $10 item and I want to assess a 30 cent fee.
Brett: The price for that item is going to be $10 and 30 cents. And if you pay in cash, it's $10. Like a way a way to make the cash price break more easily with the cat with with you know denominations and that sort of thing.
Alexis : Yeah.
Brett: Especially now that we don't have pennies anymore. Uh, that's another thing that's been weird. It's like, it's like 87 cents and I get back a nickel or something.
Plant People: Yeah.
Brett: It's ah and a nickel and a dime. Um, yeah. So I'm curious, does any of that stuff surprise you?
Plant People: it's I'm surprised by the fact that there was, what you what did you say, 19%? Increase in likelihood of using cash. I'm surprised that many people have cash in their pocket because I would be one of those that absolutely doesn't have cash.
Plant People: I've even adapted my wallet that has no room for cash at all. It's just all cards.
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: So that's that's where I'm at. Now that bouts me sometimes because I run into vendors at wherever, whatever I'm doing every now and again that they just don't take credit cards or the credit card machines down, whatever.
Plant People: And then I'm that awkward one that has to pull out of line at McDonald's because either A, their ice cream machine's broken, or B, their credit card machine's broken, and and I don't have cash.
Alexis : who
Plant People: i have to pull out of line at that point.
Alexis : Yeah.
Plant People: So, I mean, I should carry cash maybe, but when you mentioned the penny going away, I attributed a lot of that ability to take the penny away is that it became easier as less people carried cash and coins.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: That probably facilitated that process. So I'm really surprised, Brett, that 19% movement there in likelihood to use cash.
Brett: Yeah, well one of one of the things that some of these studies seem to indicate was that
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: that customers did indicate some intention to continue to or begin to carry cash more. So in other words, cash isn't dead.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Brett: The problem is it was so far beat down close to being dead that even an incremental increase of 50% is still gonna be pretty small compared to the amount of people that have fully wholesale gone to carrying plastic and that's it.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brett: Do you all feel, really sorry.
Alexis : I always think that's I was going to say, i um when I think about whether or not to charge a processing fee, you mentioned many things.
Alexis : price you know What is the actual price point?
Brett: Thank
Alexis : If is whatever. or even more, ah there's that to consider. But I also kind of think about, you know, to me, it's sort of like charging a credit card fee is sort of like more cash in my pocket today, but i and but I'm not claiming that on my taxes down the road.
Alexis : um So, you know, if you're one of those people who, you is always stressed that you might owe a bunch with most small businesses don't owe, but like if you're one of those people who's stressed about what you might have to owe, ah ah owe the government at, at during tax season, you know, then using these credit card fees as a write-off can help you in that department. You know, if if that's, ah if you're in the scenario where you're not able to save a lot, just in case you're, you owe something that's potential there versus you know, having money in your pocket today. So there's also that kind of way to frame it as a business owner, too.
Brett: Yeah, that's a great point that there's a, there is a, a both a cashflow and a tax liability consideration as part of that.
Jessica : Thank you.
Plant People: Mm-hmm.
Alexis : hmm.
Brett: And again, when you're moving to retailers, that are doing millions or hundreds of millions of dollars and then suddenly, you know, 2.5% or whatever becomes really, really non-trivial as a, okay, what's the the best strategy here?
Brett: I think that there's also an argument to be made about, or a a conversation to be had about how how strong of a relationship do you have with your customers?
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Plant People: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brett: And how realistically or reliably can you communicate about it to them? Because I think if the fee feels very impersonal and it's just sort of like, here's the policy, ah it ah it feels you know a little, maybe has a little more sting to it.
Brett: I did come across some interviews with folks who have implemented these and they claim, which I find very hard to believe, that their customers don't care at all. And that you know that they, you know
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: They were selling larger amount like like ah larger pieces of equipment, lawn care equipment and stuff like that, where the 50% does you know bite in But
Plant People: Yeah.
Plant People: yeah
Brett: and but but i think the other piece too is that um there's a credit crisis happening in the United States right now where people don't have cash themselves.
Brett: And so there's ethical implications here, but it could very well be that they don't have the money to buy your expensive thing unless they put it on a credit card.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: And whether you want to participate in that, again, that's beyond the scope of what I want to get into here. But Especially if you're talking about more expensive items, it's so, and we haven't even gotten into the buy now, pay later kind of stuff where Klarna and those types of things that function as these short-term, la more unsavory credit options ah that that fewer credit checks and that sort of thing.
Brett: um Nor did we talk about Bitcoin. there's a there was a There was a line on the thing.
Alexis : This is a hort culture ah podcast, so we're going to keep it we're gonna keep it along those lines.
Brett: That's right.
Jessica : Thank you.
Brett: Yeah, chill, chill, Brett.
Brett: Peony coin or whatever, I don't know. um But yeah, I thought it was interesting when it's something that um it's one of those rare scenarios where something in my daily life intersects with things that I talk about with people out in the world. And so, I mean, I think if it's me, I'm probably going to at the very most do a cash discount, if not just keep prices the same and just bank on the fact that you're going to be making more money than you would if you didn't take them and think of it as a cost of but cost of doing business.
Brett: hard to swallow that. I understand. um But it's the the data seem to suggest that the the threat, especially in a small business, of isolating a consumer base outweighs the money that's going to be coming in. you know And don't necessarily quote me on that for every scenario, but I think for a lot of scenarios, that's probably the case, especially given the what we know about how people spend money when they put it on a card.
Brett: um Yeah. So I think, thanks for indulging me on that little trip down thought lane.
Alexis : No, that was good.
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Brett: Any final thoughts from anybody?
Alexis : kind Well, remind people where if they want to go, if they're a person who likes to read something to fully understand it, where they can find that.
Brett: Yeah. So if you go to ccd.uky.edu, which is the Center for Crop Diversification website, that's where Alexis and I work along with some of our colleagues.
Alexis : Hello.
Brett: And if you go on there and scroll down just on the main page, there's a bunch of different news articles, including the one about ah caring for your high tunnel when it's cold and snowy, as well as this one. And if you click it, all of the stats and and references are linked in there so you can click out and and view them yourself.
Brett: Just a very short little read. And if you're not subscribed to our newsletter, you can also do that on the website.
Alexis : Mm-hmm.
Brett: So you go to ccd.uky.edu, scroll all the way down to the bottom, and there's a link to our newsletter to subscribe there. So appreciate appreciate the reminder to to plug it.
Alexis : Yeah. And maybe if you're going into farmer's market season and, you know, every year you're kind of starting new.
Jessica : Mm-hmm.
Alexis : So if you've been thinking about doing that, do it as you start, like in the first market, even if you didn't do it last year, a lot of people won't remember that. Or, um you know, even if they do, you can just be like, hey, twenty it's 2026 now and things are expensive.
Alexis : So um yeah, yeah.
Brett: Yeah, totally.
Alexis : I think it, like you said, like doing it up front as, soon as ah to As close to the start as possible is helpful for people um to to get around that and get used to it, things like that. but Anyways, yes, you can follow us on Instagram at Hort Culture Podcast.
Alexis : If you've got more questions about whether this is the right situation for you and maybe you just need a little bit more one-on-one help with that, you can always shoot an email to us. Our email is down there in the show notes and we will make sure Brett is is the one that answers that because he's all knowledgeable about credit card fees now.
Alexis : So we'll make sure he gets a hold of
Brett: i'd hoped I'd hoped for a better claim to fame by now.
Alexis : You have many bread. That's just one. That's just today's.
Plant People: He's the swap King, the swipe King, the swiper.
Alexis : so
Brett: bal Baldest horticulture host.
Alexis : But true.
Brett: That's my superlative.
Alexis : That is true. But anyways, we are so glad you were here with us today. If you have ideas for shows that you want to hear or people you want to hear from, we've just been planning our guest list for the next few months. So if there's anybody in particular you'd love to hear or learn more from, please shoot us a DM on Instagram or shoot us an email or um you know tell us when you give us five stars for this episode that who you who you want to hear from next. Yeah.
Alexis : Well, we appreciate you being here with us today and we hope you join us next time. Have a great one.
