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Spider-Man Clone Saga: Back From The Edge
43 Plays2 years ago
Derek fills Corinne in on what Peter has been doing while meeting with The Vulture, The Owl, Daredevil, Puma, and his existential dread.
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Transcript
Introduction and Personal Highlights
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Comically Pedantic, where we take a detailed look at the complicated concepts, characters, and history of comic book culture. I'm your host, Derek L. Chase, and joining me on this episode, as always, is the wonderful Corinne Levy. Oh, hello. You and I have been talking for a little bit already here, but I'm curious to hear what your bright spot is for. Damn it. I was going to ask you first. I was going to be like, aha.
00:00:45
Speaker
Damn it, I'll try harder next time. This morning was great. I woke up, I hung out with my cat, and then Max and I went to a brewery and we just had some beers and some big sandwiches. And sometimes that's all you need in life is a beer and a big sandwich. And I chowed down both of those.
00:01:10
Speaker
at like high noon. And it was great. It was great time. And like the sun was out. So the sun was my literal bright spot. Cause it's been raining all week. I think, I think that's pretty peak for me. Oh my gosh. And I took my cat on a walk in a backpack. I have one of those cat backpacks for like hiking and stuff. So he had his first little go at that. That was exciting. Oh, he's such a good boy.
00:01:40
Speaker
But what about you? What was your bright spot? You know, I think I had a lot of little, uh, bright spots over the past because it's, you know, you and I, we've had a weird, uh, recording, uh, uh, schedule going just because we both have a lot going on. There's, you know, lots of things, uh, popping in and out. And yeah. And I also forget that we've released these.
00:02:07
Speaker
long after we've recorded them. Um, like next while we were driving to the brewery, it was like, Oh, why don't we like listen to a snippet of the doctor hurt episode? And I was like, this probably would be weird for me, but okay. And you were asking me what my bright spot was and it was like,
00:02:28
Speaker
I was sad that I hadn't gotten to meet the cat yet. And I was like, oh my God, this is like before I had my kitty. It's crazy. And now I have that cat. That's crazy. Well, one of the things I was going to say is I got to meet your cat for the first time. I know, right? You and Austin are like his unofficial godparents because you helped us find him.
00:02:55
Speaker
He was so cute. He looks like a kitten. I can't get over. He, it's not like he looks like a, a slightly old, he looks like a kitten that has just been a little bit bigger, you know? He's very small. He, I don't even think he's 10 pounds, which is really funny because my, I have cats at my parents' house. Um, it's like our, our family camps. I've grown up with cats in my whole life. If you couldn't tell.
00:03:26
Speaker
It's a time. But one of my cats back at my parents house, his name's Kirby. He's, he's fantastic. I love him so much. He's my other baby boy, but he is 18 pounds. He's like almost 20 pounds, but it's all muscle. Oh yeah.
00:03:44
Speaker
So like Kirby could eat Oliver. It's crazy. And I just and now I just have like the smallest pumpkin in the patch in my home. And it's really delightful. It's like my dog Brownie is about 50 pounds, but he has like no fat on his body. It's just all muscle.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. He's, he's, he's muscle in, uh, like the boniest, but because he wants to sit on you all the time and it always hurts. Yeah. I'm just convinced that Kirby is constantly cosplaying his black Panther. I'm really convinced because he also has like a little white patch on like his little chest and he's got little pits too. So like, I don't know, it's probably like costume embellishments. I don't know.
00:04:30
Speaker
But I think Oliver knows I've been talking about him because I literally just saw him in the corner and now he disappeared. He's like a ghost. He's a little pumpkin ghost.
00:04:40
Speaker
A couple of the other things I was going to mention, I got to see a lot of my friends, including you. Yeah, we're friends in
Social Experiences and Wedding Reflections
00:04:48
Speaker
real life. Yeah, I know. We had a Twilight watch party, and then we got to hang out and play games with you a couple of days after that. Yeah. A couple of weeks ago, two of my friends got married. It was really fun to see that. So there's just a lot actually going on
00:05:09
Speaker
I know, you got to sprinkle all the bright spots everywhere.
00:05:12
Speaker
It was so much fun. That was actually when I got sick and we had to postpone recording, the first thing that I remember thinking like, my bright spot is going to be that I got to see my two friends, Phil and Carly. Hello, Phil and Carly. I got to see them actually get married, which is wonderful because they're both amazing people. And I have told Phil more times than I can count that Carly is the best thing that has ever happened to him.
00:05:43
Speaker
and it's just fun to see them actually like get married and and and live their lives now you know I mean they've been living together and whatever but it's slightly different you know it's so fun cuz you just get it's like it is a day to just celebrate like the best things you're just celebrating people that love each other and that's so fun I am probably I am
00:06:09
Speaker
a horrible curmudgeon, generally speaking. And I don't like weddings. I think weddings are, they tend to be... Who hurt you? I think they're stuffy and they're boring. And I don't care about, you know, there's all of these things that you have to perform at a wedding. And I don't understand why. I think it should be relaxed in a celebration that's more fun.
00:06:36
Speaker
I think you've just been to bad weddings. I think that's all the problem, because I love weddings. That might be the case, because Phil and Carly's wedding was the most fun I have had at a wedding, probably ever. Well, I guess the question is, before that, were you only at family weddings? Have you ever gone to a friend's wedding before? So I have gone to friend's weddings. Because friend weddings are totally different animals than family weddings.
00:07:05
Speaker
I have gone to friend's weddings. I went to actually a friend of mine in Austin's. More Austin, Austin knew him more. And yeah, that's fine.
00:07:19
Speaker
Uh, he was getting married and the two of them through. So his husband also worked for Montclair state university and is probably the most over the top person that I've ever met when it comes to like planning these things. So their wedding was crazy. It was all like.
00:07:40
Speaker
There were lights and they got the Montclair State University mascot to come out and like dance with everyone. And everyone had a good time with that. And that was fun. But I knew one of the grooms and I knew like
00:07:56
Speaker
Austin and one other person and that was it so I I was also in I Had some something was wrong with like my leg or something and I was in pain. So I was not happy to be Yeah, I think you just need a couple good like a couple good weddings and and I think your brain will change Because there are a lot of fun They're just a good excuse to like eat food see people that you like and then cut a rug. It's great
00:08:25
Speaker
Well, I do want to say just in case anyone that was at that wedding is listening, I'm not saying that the wedding was terrible. I'm just saying that I was not enjoying it for other, like there, it's not, I'm sure it was great. Derek's leg was about to fall off. I don't remember exactly what was going on. I remember being in pain and complaining to Austin on our way there. I was like, I feel terrible and I don't want to be here. Yeah.
00:08:56
Speaker
Okay. Well, okay. All the people that have gotten married, y'all had cool weddings. And as long as you had fun, that's all that matters. Derek will not be there to Yelp review your wedding. It will be fine. And you can pretty much just discount anything that I because there's nothing I'm not.
00:09:17
Speaker
There's nothing good really going to come out of me reviewing anything unless it's like with Phil and Carly, I was like, oh, this is wonderful. I had a lot of fun, but everything leading up to it, I was like, as people are asking me, oh, are you excited? No, I hate weddings. I do not want to go. Like I'm only going because I love Phil and I love Carly. That's it. But then I had her blast. It was great. That's all that matters.
00:09:42
Speaker
But enough about
Spider-Man Storyline Exploration
00:09:43
Speaker
weddings. Uh, we're here to talk about Spider-Man and, um, I think we have a, we have a very interesting storyline to go over today. Yeah. I'm interested to see what happened because I have like some curiosity is like, is anything going to connect from like what I read like last time and stuff like that. And if it connects to what I read for after this, I'm intrigued.
00:10:14
Speaker
I do think that as we go forward, they intersect a little bit more.
00:10:22
Speaker
This one, I think more sets up future stuff more than anything, but I said really liked it and we'll get into why. So when we last left Peter, he had essentially abandoned trying to live a dual life and instead was living only as the spider, which I will never not think is funny. Uh, after running into his long thought dead clone, who was very much alive and battling with the baffingly superpowered psychiatrist,
00:10:50
Speaker
The clone had seemingly died again. Spider-Man was left to ponder on how he wanted to continue living his life. At the same time, Mary Jane had left New York in order to patch things up with her family, even though she had no idea where her husband is and Aunt May is lying in a coma in the hospital. This brings us to the storyline Back from the Edge, where we get to see how this plays out for everyone involved.
00:11:15
Speaker
This is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot. We start with Amazing Spider-Man, volume one, number 395, which was written by JMD Matias, penciled by Mark Bagley, inked by Larry Malstead, colored by Bob Sharon and lettered by Bill Oakley. This, I actually have this comic book and the next Amazing Spider one is Spider-Man. Oh, so you get to read it like in like by
00:11:43
Speaker
with your bare hand and not your bare screen. So I will say I read this for the very first time when I was a teenager and dealing with a lot of depression. So it was interesting. So I remember going like, man, this is dark.
00:12:03
Speaker
Oh, okay. I was gonna say like Spider-Man's like kind of a good way to go if you're feeling like a bit down because it's just it makes life feel more colorful and simpler I think. Sometimes. Sometimes. Sometimes. But apparently not all the time because as you said this one's really dark.
00:12:23
Speaker
Uh, this is a weird era and I remember very much not thinking that these were great comics, but still wanting to hold on to them. And I think part of why is because as someone who was dealing with a lot of depression, you see spider-man dealing with a lot of depression and he's not doing well. And it kind of felt good to see that like, look, this fucker is having a hard time of it too. Yeah. You know, it, it was.
00:12:52
Speaker
It's not necessarily what I would say is great, but it's better than nothing. I've read a lot of Spider-Man stories where I was like, well, that was not great. Yeah, I get that. So we start with this particular story. A drug dealer is making an early morning drug deal when suddenly- Oh, no heist.
00:13:19
Speaker
You know, just a, just a normal every day, a breakfast drug deal. Just a classic crack your eggs and have some crack. You get some yeah. So he's making an early morning drug deal when suddenly the sale is interrupted by the sound of a massive growl. When he goes to check what this is, he finds Puma at the door. So, uh, do you know who the character Puma is? No.
00:13:48
Speaker
Great. You're probably going to be in the majority on this one. Puma is a character. I'm not going to get too far into it because it doesn't really matter. He's a guy who has the ability to turn into a humanoid Puma.
00:14:06
Speaker
and he's kind of a dick. He fights Spider-Man a lot. I like him, but not because I think he's a great character. I just think his design is cool. He sounds like he's a dickhead thundercat. Yeah, he looks like a dickhead thundercat. Oh, okay. It's interesting because this particular issue of the comic, Puma doesn't look the way he normally does. He looks way more animalistic. He's got way more cat features than he does human features.
00:14:36
Speaker
Ah, and this is the first comic book I ever read with Puma in it. So this was, this is my default. How I, how I see the character, even though this is the, the, the outlier. Oh, okay. Interesting.
00:14:51
Speaker
So the drug dealer turning for reinforcements finds Nocturne who has knocked out his associates. Nocturne is a character who was introduced very recently. It's JMD Matias character. He does this a lot where he has his little characters he likes to play with. So they come back quite more. Yeah. It sounds like kind of like a little bit of like self promo.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, she looks like a gargoyle and essentially she is a character who was changed, I believe by Baron Zemo into this
00:15:30
Speaker
gargoyle looking creature and she has some weird empathy powers where she can like not only she can feel what you're feeling but she can make you feel what others feel or what she feels and that's like her preferred way of communication throughout this story
00:15:52
Speaker
which I actually think is way more interesting than what they ever do with it. I think I would read a lot of this character if that's kind of how they interacted with the world. Based on like the very bare bones of this character, it feels very Sandman. It could be. It's just, I think it's like the poor man's version of it. You know what I mean? The poor man's Sandman. Yeah. Just boy.
00:16:21
Speaker
When Puma is about to attack, Nocturne convinces him not to, but she uses her powers to make the drug dealer feel all of the agony that the addicts that he serves feels. So all the different. So she's kind of like a like a chaotic, like, yeah, you know, she it's neutral kind of person. Yeah, I get the feeling that like she's
00:16:47
Speaker
seen way more of as a villain, but like she just kind of does whatever she wants. You know, there's not really like she doesn't have from what I can tell a solid plan for anything. She's just kind of going about. That's honestly kind of how I feel about Kane. No, yeah. That's probably going to continue. He doesn't do a lot at the moment, but
00:17:16
Speaker
Sometimes he like saves a person by like killing other people. It's very odd, but the gargoyle lady sounds fun.
00:17:28
Speaker
Well, that's about all that we get to see of her in this scene, because it immediately ends, and we cut to Spider-Man, who has returned to Aunt May's home in Forest Hills, Queens. But he doesn't really know why he's there, because at this time, he doesn't live there. He lives with Mary Jane. Right, yes, because they're married.
00:17:48
Speaker
Right. And Aunt May is in the hospital. So she has an empty house. Right. So Peter continues to claim that he only wants to be the spider, even though the previous story arc had him realize that he didn't want to give up on being Peter. Like that was part of that story arc. Like that's that's one of the reasons you bring in Ben Riley. He's like, oh, hey, this guy wants to to be Peter. Well, I don't want to give up on my life, but whatever. Yeah. It's also just like
00:18:18
Speaker
I don't know. Imagine like being MJ or Mary Jade and your husband is just like, I hate my normal life. I just want to be the spider. And then she's just like, damn, put a lot of work in this relationship myself here. And you just want to crawl on some walls. Yeah, there is a kick in the face.
00:18:43
Speaker
And the thing that I kept coming back to throughout this, Mary Jane left to go to Pittsburgh and. Yeah. Cause she's like actively trying to like fix crap in her life.
00:18:54
Speaker
Right. And I will give her shit for leaving at this particular time because like she knows her husband's going through a shitty thing. Uh, his, his mother, uh, sort of person, mother figure is in a coma. So like things are not going well. And she leads to go deal with something that's not really that pressing, but
00:19:17
Speaker
The alternative is to stick around and be like, is my husband coming home? Like, it's kind of shitty. So Peter makes his way through the house and he gets overcome with emotions and memories. And so he decides to leave and swing away. He just can't handle being there anymore. Cut to Mary Jane in Pittsburgh. She finds herself at her sister's door, unsure of what to do.
00:19:45
Speaker
When she finally musters the courage to ask if she can come in, her sister greets her with open arms, which is kind of nice. You know, she's like, I don't know if I want to be here, but she gets welcomed anyway. Well, and it also like, it sounds like she's not getting really any support in New York and she lost a lot of support in Pittsburgh. Yeah. So I feel like, yes, it's shitty to leave like Aunt May in a coma, you know? Right.
00:20:14
Speaker
But also, it might be one of those things for the character where it reminds them like, you know what, before like somebody else ends up in a coma, maybe I need to like rebuild some bridges, you know.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's a charitable way of looking at this. I'm just very much trying to support the one reoccurring female character at this point. I'm like, she's gotta be okay. Mary Jane is one of my favorite characters. I just think that at this time in writing- They're just not writing her the best. They did not know what to do with her. It's crazy to me because she's such an interesting character.
00:20:59
Speaker
uh previous to this story there was uh at least i'm pretty sure it was previous i've read these all out of order but i'm pretty sure previous to the story yeah yeah previous to this story there was another one where the entire b plot of it was mary jane picked up smoking again and then at the end the resolution to it is peter takes her to visit a guy who has cancer in the hospital
00:21:26
Speaker
And she's like, I'm never going to smoke. Like that's the story that they give her. Oh my God. It's so weird. Wait.
00:21:36
Speaker
Why is Peter the worst? Well and the other it's the other thing too is in this in that particular story the thing that I thought was more interesting is like Peter's out he's kidnapped all this stuff is going on and Mary Jane's going out to clubs and dancing with other people and I was like oh is she feeling neglected is that going to come up as like a you know
00:21:59
Speaker
Fight there. Nope. Yeah, it's just he comes home and it's like that didn't happen but like there are multiple scenes of her like going to a club and dancing with other people and look you should be Welcome to do that. But it's just the way that it was set up in the story. Yeah, it seemed like a bigger deal than it was exactly and then they probably just didn't let Anyone get found out or whatever
00:22:25
Speaker
That's so weird. It was going somewhere else. But anyway, we're getting off topic already. Okay. Anyway, she's at her sister's house and her sister's like, Oh my God. Hi.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah. So then she goes in and we're going to cut to another scene. Basically what we have set up are the three main plot threads throughout this comic. You have a Nocturne and Puma who are out doing their thing. Peter going through like unable to deal with his own memories and emotions. And then Mary Jane. Mary Jane sister bonding. Right.
00:22:57
Speaker
So Nocturne is then overcome with a sense of mental anguish and feels like she must seek out the origin of this. She goes and she finds Spider-Man at his old high school. And he's thinking about all of the struggles that he's gone through in his life, particularly the ones he went through while he was in high school.
00:23:17
Speaker
And during this, he's interrupted by Puma who attacks him, enraged at seeing Spider-Man. And Spider-Man then freaks out because according to everything that I could find, Puma is supposed to be dead at this point. He, I guess they got into a fight and he like kind of died. And then somehow in coming back, regressed into a much more animalistic form.
00:23:47
Speaker
So Nocturne then steps in and engages Spider-Man to ask him about like how he's feeling and to tell him that he needs to follow her. She's attracted to the weird mental energy that he's got going on. I love that this was the epitome of like, oh my gosh, a broken man, I can fix him.
00:24:13
Speaker
So they make their way to a park where she discusses how she was forcefully changed into the creature that she now is. And using her powers, she mentally links with Spider-Man so that he can see how she found Puma with no part of him being like a man anymore. He's completely just the Puma, right? There's no human in him. It's just a Puma.
00:24:36
Speaker
This causes Puma to remember fighting Spider-Man in the past and because of this he attacks Spider-Man but then Nocturne intervenes but in doing so she gets clawed by Puma. Oh no! So then Spider-Man is now pissed off because this person who's trying to connect with him has been injured and he decides to attack Puma.
00:25:03
Speaker
And that's the end of Amazing Spider-Man 395. That's everything that has happened. I like Nocturne. She gives me Medusa vibes. Yeah, unfortunately, she does not stick around long in the Spider-Man comics. Oh, well, that's a shame. And it's also really hard to find her under this name.
00:25:28
Speaker
Uh, because she, as far as I can tell, she's only used this name in a handful of comics and that's it. Oh, okay. So that brings us to Spectacular Spider-Man volume one, number two 18, which was written by Tom DeFalco and Todd DeZago, penciled and inked by Sal Bashema, colored by John Kalis and lettered by Clint Robbins.
00:25:51
Speaker
Tom defalco remember is an editor at the time so this is yes writing for the He pops up. He'll he'll be in the next episode too. Oh nice so after defeating Puma and Watching him flee spider-man decides that he has to help nocturne You immediately start with him being like shit. I have to take care of this person
00:26:15
Speaker
And as he swings away, he wishes to himself that he could be in two places at once. And as he's doing so, he just narrowly misses running into Ben Riley. Well, during this, as he's swinging by, Ben is wearing his Scarlet Spider costume. So it's got to be like somewhat during this time, right? Right. Yeah.
00:26:37
Speaker
uh, deciding that he needs to get Nocturne out of the rain. Peter takes her to the apartment that she had when she was human and then realizes that it's been taken by other people. Like she doesn't live there anymore. Other people live in this apartment. Like, sir, I don't think you realize how quick the, uh, the renters market is. Oh my God. Especially as soon as you're out, you're back. Like someone's in there.
00:27:01
Speaker
So this causes Spider-Man to realize that life moves on even if you try to forget about your civilian identities. You can't just step out and be like, I'm done with this life and then assume that nobody else will continue living. Yeah, again, think about your wife
00:27:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's the other thing is like Mary Jane doesn't come up much in his thoughts during this time and that's Surprising to me Then we cut to Anna who is continuing to be the worst in this era She's telling Aunt May who is still in a coma that she has always been strong and then if she needs to let go She just should oh my god
00:27:54
Speaker
Honey, there can't be two ants in this story. Yeah, go. I can understand the reason that Anna is doing the things that she's doing, but as someone who is reading a Spider-Man comic, she's doing everything the wrong way. Yeah, Ant-Man is supposed to be the untouchable one. Right. I'm upset by the fact that she's just in a coma.
00:28:23
Speaker
Oh, we're going to have a hard time. Trust me. We have, oh, we have some, uh, we have some difficult stuff going forward, but I have trivia on it. I'm so excited. When Nocturne wakes up, uh, she shows concern for Puma, like wanting to know where he is, like hoping he's okay. Even though he is the reason that she has been injured.
00:28:50
Speaker
And because of that, Spider-Man begins to question if even his enemies deserve a second chance. So basically, Spider-Man is learning how to be a good person for some reason. Fathom that bad people are still people or just villainous people are still people. And he also can't fathom that if you're not following a particular life,
00:29:20
Speaker
Like the people that are attached to that life are like, they're not just going to stop existing just because you don't want to be part of their lives anymore. It's so weird to me that this is like, it's so crazy. Like how weirdly selfish like this, this spider man is. And it's so crazy hearing all this.
00:29:48
Speaker
after just reading a bunch about Ben Riley, who's like having reasonable like existential crises because he's not because he's a clone. Yeah. But then he's always just like, oh, my gosh, the civilians, I got to protect them. Like these villains are causing a lot of damage. Like I got to stop the damage. Like, oh, my God, it's so crazy. And it's it's interesting to me also just because like
00:30:19
Speaker
Uh, I feel like Peter is smarter than like, I understand when you're in a, a, an altered mental state and you're going through a lot of depression, but like, I feel like he shouldn't have to relearn these very basic lessons.
00:30:39
Speaker
Like I think we've all been at a low point in our life where we definitely are not ours, like our usual selves, but I still don't think even at my like lowest have I thought that just like other people were irrelevant to like the world. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Ah, crazy.
00:31:03
Speaker
The next scene though takes place in Pittsburgh where Mary Jane apologizes to her sister for leaving them years earlier. Her sister is really understanding about all this and even explains that she's forgiven their father as well and that he has been trying to become a better person.
00:31:18
Speaker
So it's nice to see that Mary Jane is actually like doing something to connect with her family. And it's nice to see that like her asshole dad that, you know, we've been introduced to in previous comics is isn't just the asshole. Like he doesn't stay the asshole. He's actually growing as a person, even when he's not part of the comic.
00:31:43
Speaker
Well, it seems like it's kind of what they're trying to do is really like emphasize that like, hey, there really is no black and white. Like, yeah, this guy sucked. Like he was a villain in somebody's eyes and now he's trying to get better because it's kind of the same lesson. That's like Peter's learning.
00:32:06
Speaker
I'm going to get into the theme more when we wrap everything up at the end. But I really liked, I was confused as hell when I was reading these collection of stories because I didn't really see where they were going and how they all connected until I finished and went back over it. And I was like, oh, this actually is a really interesting way of doing this. It's not how I would have done it, but it's cool.
00:32:33
Speaker
So then we cut back to New York where Spider-Man and Nocturne go out searching for Puma. But while doing this, Spider-Man notices the new Daredevil. Daredevil's like hopping around the city. In a recent story, Matt Murdock had faked his death and decided to continue on as Daredevil while pretending to be someone else. So he just has like a different costume and he's like, I'm not Matt Murdock, I'm this other dude.
00:32:58
Speaker
Spider-Man thinks about how Daredevil's life was consumed by his dual identity and how he was eventually killed because of his dual identity. And we'll get into that. We have a lot more on that later. It sounds like this Daredevil is doing exactly what Peter thinks or thought was ideal to do.
00:33:22
Speaker
Yes. And it's weird that these are happening around the same time, but it's interesting. We'll get into it. When Spider-Man and Nocturne do eventually find Puma, Puma attacks Spider-Man right on site. He's furious and wants to rip into him. Yes. But while that's happening, we cut back to Mary Jane and her sister, who are comforting MJ's nephew, who has woken from a nightmare.
00:33:50
Speaker
And this really kind of only exists in the comic, for two reasons. I think to break up the action a little bit and give you a look. And MJ's still doing stuff. And the other reason, I think, is because we're really getting into how much family matters to Mary Jane. I think that's the theme they're trying to build around her. I just think they're doing it
00:34:21
Speaker
less interesting way. Yeah. So then we come back to the fight between Spider-Man and Puma where Nocturne interrupts the fight again. This keeps happening and this time she causes them to feel each other's pain. It's like she like uses her empathic powers for them to understand the other one and the pain that they're both going through.
00:34:46
Speaker
Yeah, see, at first she was starting to feel like, in terms of the fight scenes, very much like a scream, like the lady symbiote in the previous thing we talked about. She just keeps popping up and being like, someone talk to me. But I like, I kind of like this intrusion more.
00:35:06
Speaker
just like forcing people to feel how each other feels. Ugh, maybe that's what my super happy hour would be. Understand each other. It would be an interesting way of being a therapist. I mean, imagine in the Marvel universe how much money you could make as a therapist if you were also a psychic. Yeah.
00:35:31
Speaker
Like that's fit. And if you lived in the Marvel universe, no one would really care if you had wings. Cause just like, I mean, depending on how many other weird shit going on, depending on if you were a mutant or not. Cause for whatever reason that matters. They don't like mutants, but like you can have wings and be like, Oh, it was a genetic alteration after I was born. Like, Oh, that's fine. That's cool.
00:35:58
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, it's a body mod. Don't worry about it. Thousands of dollars. Mutants maybe. Maybe it's Maybelline. No, they're just born with it. It's fine.
00:36:10
Speaker
So this interruption where she makes them feel each other's pain, this causes Puma to revert back to human form. And when he does that, he just kind of silently gets up and walks away. He just nopes out. He's done. He's like, Oh, no. Spider-Man tells Nocturne that she doesn't need to be alone and that he can have Dr. Kafka from Ravencroft help her.
00:36:37
Speaker
And when she refuses and Spider-Man asks why she won't even try, Nocturne asks him the same question before flying away. Aha! I like her. She's a good character. That's where we end this spectacular Spider-Man. And I loved Nocturne and I thought that was a really interesting way of... I wish they did something more interesting with her because this was a cool weird little introduction and then
00:37:09
Speaker
as I've never read another comic with her again. Oh, that's a shame. She seems so cool. As we move into Amazing Spider-Man volume one, number 396, you would think that all of what we just covered would be continuing on, but only really the theme does. We now have an entirely different story.
00:37:35
Speaker
Okay, so he hasn't learned his lesson yet, so he has to have a whole new array of characters to try and teach him this lesson a second time. Correct. Maybe third time. This comic, as I said, is Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 1396. It was written by JMD Matias, penciled by Mark Bagley, inked by Larry Malstead, colored by Bob Sharon, and a letter by Bill Oakley.
00:37:56
Speaker
That's the same team that worked on the previous Amazing Spider-Man. So at least we have some consistency here. I really enjoy when you have at least a team continuing on. I found that with the next book, like section that I had read, it was a lot of the same people. And I think that's part of the reason why I enjoy it next episode. I think it really helps with the cohesion of the story that you're telling.
00:38:26
Speaker
and getting the themes together, getting the art together. Everyone's kind of working on the same page because you've been working together. You kind of know what you're doing. And it's weird, I think, to see it switch so much. I think that was part of the problem that we ran into with power and responsibility. You have four different teams, whereas this is really two teams
00:38:55
Speaker
on one story. So there's a lot, it's, it's kind of one big team, you know? Yes. So the story starts with Daredevil ambushing some criminals in an alley demanding to know where to find the supervillain known as the owl.
Daredevil and Identity Challenges
00:39:10
Speaker
Uh, for those who've watched, for those who have watched the Daredevil TV show, that's Leland Owlsley. He's the accountant from the first season of Daredevil. Um, but in the,
00:39:24
Speaker
comics, he also is kind of owl-shaped and can fly. Okay, is he still an accountant? I think he was at one point, yeah. It's a little weird, I think he kind of, he also has sort of a dual life, and I mean his identity is public.
00:39:46
Speaker
Uh, but at least in the, in the TV show, he's not like an out and out supervillain. He's just kind of a shitty, he's a villainous accountant. Whereas here he's a supervillain who I believe at one point was also an accountant. Oh, that's cool. So Daredevil is beating all these people up and he's like, where's the owl? Where's the owl? And, uh,
00:40:09
Speaker
He starts to realize that they don't really know anything, and he's just beating up on people for no reason. And when he comes to that conclusion, Daredevil announces to Spider-Man that he is aware that the web head has been following him. So Spider-Man's been in the shadows watching. Daredevil's like, I know you're here. When Spider-Man appears, he says that he has come to talk to a friend.
00:40:33
Speaker
Daredevil announces that Matt Murdock is dead and Spider-Man is mistaken. But Spidey says that he's followed Daredevil around and he moves just like Matt did. And this is an interesting thing for me because to me this indicates Spider-Man knows this is really Matt Murdock pretending to be someone else.
00:40:53
Speaker
But as it goes on, it's kind of treated as maybe he thinks that, but he doesn't know that. So he keeps kind of going back on maybe it's someone else. But to start it off with, I've been following you and you act just like this person. I took it when I first read this as Spider-Man knows.
00:41:16
Speaker
Do you think it could be like he knows, but out of respect for Daredevil, he's like playing along with it? It might be. It's an interesting take, I think, that they do on this because at the end of it, I was like, does he know? I still don't know. Well, honestly, with this Spider-Man, who really knows? Yeah, he goes back and forth on everything. He's a wishy-washy boy.
00:41:45
Speaker
So meanwhile, the owl is sitting above New York, thinking about his life and what he wants to leave behind before he is met by the vulture. And for any of the- Ah, okay. Okay. Anyone that's seen Spider-Man coming? For later. But the vulture just shows up.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, the Vulture just shows up. If you've seen Spider-Man Homecoming, you're kind of used to seeing Michael Keaton, who, as much as he's like an older person, doesn't really look crazy old. Yeah, so with Spider-Man Homecoming, I did see that one. That one was in theaters when I went to see it. I watched it with a bunch of friends. It was a fun time.
00:42:30
Speaker
This is part of the reason I don't I'm not the biggest fan of like the MCU because from what I know of the vulture, the vulture is a crazy looking bald man with like the fluffy like turtleneck piece and like a very bright costume. And then and I love Michael Keaton. I love him so much. He's probably my favorite Batman in movie times.
00:42:58
Speaker
but I'm sad that they just put him in a mech suit, you know? I actually really liked what they did with the Vulture in that movie because I think it made way more sense
00:43:10
Speaker
Like, yes, it made sense. And I know it did. And so please, nobody come and yell at me. I understand that it makes sense for the universe and all that stuff. What you don't understand is I don't like the universe. And I want it to be what it isn't, which is letting Michael Keaton be absolutely batshit.
00:43:39
Speaker
and like be a peak bird man because they put him in a real bird man movie but they didn't let him do literal as much bird as I wanted and I wanted bird for Spider-Man Homecoming and I did not get bird
00:43:58
Speaker
Because it's the MCU and again, I'm aware that it does not make sense for him to be like that however, you can't stop my dreams internet and That's all I have to say about that so This is also going to be a little weird for you I think so the vulture as you said is normally like a crazy old bald man wearing what is like a turtleneck and
00:44:28
Speaker
It just has wings and he can fly for some reason. Iconic. In this comic, the Vulture has been de-aged after a recent storyline where he... This is taking place after the Chameleon's weird plan where he introduces a kind of robot. I don't know what there's really supposed to be. These like robot versions of Peter's parents.
00:44:57
Speaker
And their life energy was absorbed by the vulture and it somehow made him a younger person. Oh. So he now has like, he's got like hair. He's got like a new costume. He's now like, let's go with like in his thirties versus like his, what he looks like in the seventies and originally. So.
00:45:27
Speaker
The Vulture is now DH, and he's become obsessed with abandoning how everyone once saw him, and he wants to create a new life. Very much like Venom. Right. Previously. How Venom's just like, I'm a psycho, but I want to be a hero now, because I'm ashamed of things. It's also very similar to what Spider-Man's going through. And Daredevil.
00:45:52
Speaker
And to some extent, the owl. This is what I was saying, where the theme is interesting because of the way it's weaved in. It's the story doesn't follow, you're not following the same set of characters, you're following a theme along. And I think that's- Yeah, it's just an anthology of second chances.
00:46:09
Speaker
Yeah, so the vulture reveals to the owl that he has a plan for the two of them. He is offering the opportunity to erase his past by easily killing everyone who had previously known him.
00:46:23
Speaker
Which is fucking insane. This went from like, yeah, I could see how this connects like the Spider-Man. There's 100% just Venom vibes all over again. We're going to have a shot of like the Vulture on a roof and there's just going to be a pile of dead bodies.
00:46:42
Speaker
And some of them might be robbers. In another part of the city, Spider-Man and Daredevil continue to discuss their situation. Spider-Man is desperate to know how Daredevil managed to bury his past and start all over again. And Daredevil keeps insisting that he isn't Matt Murdock and takes him to Murdock's grave where he's buried. While there, he states that if he were Murdock,
00:47:09
Speaker
he would tell him to kill Peter and forget that he ever existed. Spider-Man seems unsure of this and tells Daredevil that he wants to stick around and help him hunt down the owl. So this is, again, this is gonna be like the third story arc, even though this is technically the same story arc, it's split in two. This is the third time around where- It's a reiteration.
00:47:32
Speaker
He's just like, hey, you need to to give up your life. And he's going, hey, hold on. Wait a minute now. But he still doesn't come to the realization. Well, because because Nocturne was like kind of like, well. Reminding him not to like, don't quit your whole life, you know? And I think right now. I feel like Spider-Man right now is a bit of like a Pinocchio.
00:48:03
Speaker
because I'm going to need you to elaborate. Okay. So, so Pinocchio, he's a little, but he's a little boy. Okay. He wants to be something and he's an asshole. Pinocchio sucks. He's annoying. He's selfish and he's pretty shitty. Um, and then you have like in Pinocchio, you have like the blue angel who's kind of just like, you should probably get some wise in you and
00:48:31
Speaker
I feel like that's very nocturne, just like not directly telling him what to do, but just being like, perhaps maybe one day you won't be an asshole anymore. And I feel like Daredevil is kind of
00:48:50
Speaker
when you go to like the fantasy island. I know immediately what you're gonna say. And he's like, all right, this is what, yeah, with all the jackasses. And I feel like Daredevil is kind of just being like, is a bit of the cautionary tale, being like, I did it, you can do it too. And then he's gonna turn into a jackass.
00:49:17
Speaker
is how this feels, how this feels. And then I'm sure one day he'll stop being a jackass and get eaten by a whale and be fine. But I'm just saying, Spider-Man feels a bit Pinocchio right now. And it's okay. It actually kind of fits with where we're going in the story too. I mean, you have to get a little abstract with it, but it kind of fits.
00:49:43
Speaker
Listen, I can stretch an analogy pretty far if I'm determined enough and I am an Aries. So according to everybody who likes astrology, I am stubborn enough to get it done. So Spider-Man seems unsure of what Daredevil is telling him, but he does tell Daredevil that he wants to stick around and help him hunt down the owl.
00:50:07
Speaker
Okay. In their new hideout, the vulture demonstrates his plan to the owl by injecting a man with some sort of fast acting poison. The owl demands that the vulture give the man the antidote, but he instead snaps his neck. Oh my God. He's like, hey, I'm gonna, don't worry, I'll fix him and he just kills him. Annoyed by this, the owl demands to know his plan.
00:50:35
Speaker
The Vulture explains that he intends to infect a large group of birds and unleash them into the city, which would kill anyone who remembers who the two of them really are. And I just- Wait a minute. Wouldn't that just kill the birds? I think he's like lacing their talons. I'm pretty sure that's, and they're supposed to attack people. I don't know. But I wrote, I wrote just a little note at the bottom of this plan. I just wrote, there are so many holes in this plan.
00:51:06
Speaker
This is also, if it somehow worked, this is my greatest fear. I am afraid of birds. Like, specifically like weird birds. Like chicken, turkey, guinea hen, ostrich, peacock, flamingo. So chickens, really? Yeah.
00:51:26
Speaker
It's terrifying. My parents have them. I have a strictly business relationship with them. I don't, I do not have like, I don't love them. Um, I am sad when they pass away only for my mom's sake. Cause I'm like, she likes them. I'm sorry that her, like her things that she likes are gone. Um, no, I'm terrified of them though. It's like, it's their faces. I hate their faces.
00:51:55
Speaker
I am terrified of the bigger ones like the emus and the ostriches. Oh, they're terrifying too. They're on the list. Don't worry. They're weird. They're terrifying. Like if I was alive during the emu wars, I would not pick up a gun.
00:52:13
Speaker
straight in the middle of my aim. I wouldn't have even given him a chance to go near me. I would have taken care of it for myself. I'd be like, you know, goodbye. Toodaloo. I'm gone. I appreciate your take on this. I'll put myself in the sand. Six feet under, thank you. Because I find birds cute, but I also don't. I am terrified of many of them. And it's something about the beaks.
00:52:40
Speaker
Songbirds are fine. I think songbirds are very pretty and cool. I like birds of grey. I like eagles and falcons and I do like owls. I think they're really cool. Yeah, owls are pretty cool. It's the weird ones. It's the ones that have naked faces. Like a buzzard. Yes, I hate gizzards. I hate waddles. I hate crowns.
00:53:09
Speaker
We could have a whole podcast in and of itself of the reasons I hate and am afraid of these birds. So we don't have to get, I'm also afraid of vultures. That's a thing too. Yeah.
00:53:29
Speaker
So it's, it's truly a journey. So if somehow, Oh my God. And we used to have a homing pigeon that would bother us at work. And I was afraid of that. Like little shit. I hated him. Everybody else at work loved him. I was like, get this bird fucking out of here. It flew into the shed that I was working in one day. I screamed. I hated it. So this is the farm.
00:53:54
Speaker
yeah okay yeah this makes a lot more sense i would i don't know why i was picturing like i was i was picturing like he's sitting at a cubicle and there's this oh my god they're like doing the window washing and it's just like straight through
00:54:13
Speaker
I don't know why my brain was there first. There was a hole in my head. And that one's small, but I hated that pigeon. It had a little tough skin. I didn't like it. He was an asshole.
00:54:25
Speaker
did not like that pigeon. Everyone was like, oh my God, his name's McFlurry. He's so cute. And I was like, that is Pidge and he sucks. Get him out of here. He hasn't come around in a while. I know I'm probably going to be the first suspect, but I'm telling you, I wouldn't come near that pigeon with a 10 foot pole. So I couldn't have done anything to it. I'm too afraid of them. I hate them so much. Anyway, so the vulture wants to leech.
00:54:54
Speaker
unleash a bunch of poisonous birds into the city to kill specifically the ones, the people that remember him. Yeah. And so the owl correctly realizes that this is absolutely fucking insane and wants nothing to do with it. So he just takes off and as he's leaving, he's confronted by Daredevil and Spider-Man, but he argues with them and says he's not looking for a fight.
00:55:22
Speaker
Spider-Man is then attacked by one of the Vulture's birds and is immediately knocked out. And yeah, so that sets up kind of where we're going for the next issue. The only thing really left to talk about is Mary Jane is in this comic, but next to nothing of any importance happens. She mostly talks to her sister and thinks about how bad her dad was. That's it. End of Mary Jane's appearance in this comic. Right. Just kind of giving her some like,
00:55:54
Speaker
Deb. Yeah. It's the, they kind of are just like, Oh yeah, that thing is still happening, but we didn't write enough of a story to really have her do much. Right. That's yeah. Okay. But that takes us to spectacular Spider-Man volume one, number two 19, which is written by Tom DeFalco and Todd DeZago penciled by Sal Baschima inked by Scott Hanna colored by John Kalis and lettered by Clem Robbins. Again,
00:56:18
Speaker
the same team as the previous Spectacular Spider-Man. So we get a good flow going, I think, now. Yeah. Spider-Man is hallucinating because he was attacked by this poison-clawed bird. Do we know what kind of bird it was? Because right now, I'm only thinking of a poisonous pigeon because it's New York. It looks like an eagle.
00:56:42
Speaker
I think it's an eagle. I don't like emasculate him by just giving him like the p dove or something. Well, p dove is a Pokemon. That was fucking stupid and dirty of me. I think it's a pigeon though. He's a pigeon Pokemon. It's, you know, and one of the interesting things too is I'm, I'm,
00:57:04
Speaker
I pulled up some of the notes from Marvel fandom and they wrote the infected bird dive bombs, Spider-Man. I was trying to think of like all the different birds that would like run into Peter Parker.
00:57:24
Speaker
I don't know if you know this, but when they were doing the Spider-Man cartoon from the 90s, one of the mandates, I don't know if this, some of these were disproven to an extent, so I don't know if this is one of them, but one of the ones that was passed around was that they were not allowed to draw birds on the buildings because
00:57:49
Speaker
Uh, they didn't want to imply that Spider-Man was like landing on and hurting the birds. Oh, it's, it's weird. It's a, I like, I don't know if that's one of the ones that was actually accurate. I think we'll also forget that's like birds fly away when something they don't, they're not comfortable with.
00:58:14
Speaker
Like, they will fly away. Or if anything, they'll frickin' fly at you because the rest of us help. And honestly, you know what? It's good that they didn't draw birds in that show because if little me already afraid of birds saw more birds flying at Spider-Man, I'd be like, no, they are super villains. Yeah, so honestly good because it's triggering.
00:58:41
Speaker
So Spider-Man's hallucinating, but he gets pulled out of it when Daredevil calls him by his real name. So Spidey refuses to be taken to the hospital and instead wants to go after the owl. And when Daredevil actually catches the owl, he demands to know what his friend has been poisoned with.
00:59:00
Speaker
The vulture then arrives to help the owl actually escape, but not before Spider-Man is able to put a tracer on one of the, I think it's the owl, one of the villains. When the villains arrive at their hideout, the vulture reveals that he's already poisoned one of the owl's former business partner. This horrifies the owl who doesn't really want to murder anyone.
00:59:23
Speaker
Yeah. He just wants to be a mean accountant. Yeah. The vulture then reveals he has an antidote and it can be given to his victim before midnight to save his life. The owl takes the antidote and flies out to go save his former partner's life. So he's out there like, all right, I'm going to go give the antidote to this dude. Meanwhile, Spider-Man brought Daredevil back to his apartment in order to test his blood to see what he was actually poisoned with. Right.
00:59:52
Speaker
Noting that Peter has taken his mask off and let another superhero into his apartment, Daredevil points out how cavalier he seems to be about his own secret identity. Peter lets him know that he has too much to worry about right now and can't be bothered to protect his identity with another hero. See, this is one of those moments where I'm like, does he know that that's Matt? Because like, is he just playing along or does he really not know? Yeah. And when testing his blood. That would then be the point to just be like,
01:00:24
Speaker
Yeah. Cause bro, I'm poisoned. Let's drop this bullshit. Spidey reveals that he is dying quickly and that they have to find a cure for him and they have to find it fast.
01:00:42
Speaker
So they go after the owl, but as they get close, the spider tracer that was on him is unintentionally damaged and Spiderman can no longer follow it. This doesn't really matter in the slightest though, because Daredevil just immediately points out that he's able to track them the rest of the way by meditating real hard. He just sits down and he's like, hold on, let me just close my eyes even though I'm blind and I'll find him.
01:01:06
Speaker
Just because you're blind doesn't mean that your eyes can get dry. This is just one of those weird things where they were like, oh no, how are we ever going to find them? And then a page letter like, anyway. Oh, we found them. But New York is so big. Oh, there's a block away.
01:01:29
Speaker
When the heroes actually find, uh, the, the villains, the vulture releases his birds, which means that they now have to catch them. And here's the other thing that I think is really funny. There are like four birds at most. So the vulture birds for all of New York, that's his plan. There's more than four burrows.
01:01:57
Speaker
If you have to, get a bird per burrow. Yeah. Like if that's really the minimum that you can do. But if your name is the vulture and you're working or you were working with someone known as the owl, like you should have some pretty good bird networking. Yeah. I mean, I have I had more chickens in my life than those four burrow.
01:02:23
Speaker
It's insane to me that it was such a few. Anyway, Daredevil fights the Vulture and Spidey goes after both the birds and the owl. And when Spider-Man seems unable to catch the last bird, the owl swoops in and kills it, telling the heroes that his debt to Daredevil has been repaid and he drops the antidote down to Spider-Man. So that debt to Daredevil is from a previous story. It doesn't have anything to do with this one. You just kind of have to go with it. Yeah.
01:02:51
Speaker
But then he, so he drops the antidote down to Spider-Man, which he, so he takes, he's supposed to have this antidote to cure his business partner. And then he's like, ah, fuck that. I'm going to give it to this guy. And he didn't have like two of them. It was very good where he had one. Yes. So he, he drops it and Spidey ends up drinking it like immediately. Daredevil then tells Spider-Man that, um,
01:03:19
Speaker
What he needs to do is find the things that mean the most to him and build a life around them. Which is like, okay, you should have said that last issue instead of being like, to kill your previous self and just live this way. And it's also interesting that he's saying this because he's currently not doing that thing either. Right.
01:03:40
Speaker
Unless what you think is like the thing that means the most to him is being a superhero, which is kind of weird because that's never been Matt's thing. Yeah. A bit unclear with that one. Yeah. So Spidey later tests the antidote that he was given and he finds that it's just water and realizes that he will still die and he will die soon.
01:04:08
Speaker
So the owl didn't actually help him. Well, it's implied that the vulture was lying all the time. Yes. So he probably never had an antidote and he just snapped a guy's neck in half to be like, there, that's the antidote. Yeah. So that that's the end of Spider-Man's part in the story. He ends with realizing that he is going to die.
01:04:35
Speaker
Now that's interesting. It does make some more sense for what's to come. There was like one panel that was mentioned. Definitely did not clear up as many answers as I thought. There's only one other thing. I separated out Mary Jane's stuff.
01:04:58
Speaker
And really the only thing you need to know is she confronts her dad and they both realize that they're both trying to do better with their lives. It's a weird thing where they're doing well and then they're not doing well, but really they are, they both end up realizing they're both trying to do better. So Mary Jane gets on- And growing is not all an incline at once. It's way too bumpy and messy. Okay, I think that's fine.
01:05:25
Speaker
So Mary Jane hops on a plane and she's confident that she's started to repair her own family. So she heads back to New York to find her husband. Oh, okay. Good for her. That's how we end her part in this story.
01:05:41
Speaker
You know what? It's good that she was gone. Because honestly, she deserves some good. And would Peter really have like let her in on any of this crap? Probably not. He probably would still end up being poisoned in the gut or something. So I think that's good. What did you think of it like overall as just like
01:06:04
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. I have my, I have my what's good, what worked and what didn't worked notes. So under like what's good and what worked, having these four issues be thematically linked rather than one long narrative, I think is really interesting. And it kind of approaches Spider-Man's dilemma from two different
01:06:25
Speaker
areas. And I like that. It felt refreshing to get two short stories that were telling a long thematic story versus reading four issues of one long story. It felt way more fast paced and fun. That's cool. Teaming Spider-Man up with and then putting them against characters
01:06:48
Speaker
that all in some way want to leave their past behind. Like that helps to highlight what he's actually wanting out of his own life.
01:06:56
Speaker
Yeah. I thought that was really interesting. You have Puma who doesn't remember his past. You have Nocturne who wants to leave her past. Daredevil who wants to leave his past. You have the Owl and the Vulture who both are trying to reconcile who they were. Yeah, they're trying to kind of forget and redeem. Wow. I feel like the people in the beginning in this first half were just trying to forget. And that's it.
01:07:27
Speaker
Yeah. I think all of that really works. Like I legitimately was surprised at how much I enjoyed this particular story, especially with the way that it was set up being so, I would like not traditional. Right.
01:07:45
Speaker
Now, what didn't work is Vulture is fucking insane in this story. He is, his plan makes no sense. He is like, I'm going to, I'm going to put poison on the talons of like these three or four birds. And I'm going to release them all across New York to kill everyone that remembers us and which will effectively get rid of our previous lives, even though paper trails exist. Yeah.
01:08:13
Speaker
None of it paper trail. Yeah, and if anything it's just gonna spark it even worse Because I there's gonna be some people who didn't remember you but now this is your first impression of them is you poisoning people with a bunch of birds and I think they're
01:08:30
Speaker
is an interesting story to be told with his desire to get rid of his past self. But this was, I feel this to me is like, well, I have to write a story quickly. This is his plan. I thought it was funny. And like, I probably would have gotten a kick out of it.
01:08:58
Speaker
Maybe it's like a Saturday morning cartoon. Yeah. I did also just come off of reading Batman Curse of the White Knight, which is just very serious. It's really funny to just go to both sides of the spectrum. Another thing that I think didn't really work that well is
01:09:22
Speaker
Mary Jane's story. Nothing was really fixed. She had a couple of conversations with her family and takes responsibility for walking out on them, but she doesn't highlight that it was perfectly within her right to do so to take care of herself.
01:09:41
Speaker
They're kind of upset that she left to go start a life, but no one acknowledges the reason she left is because they had a very dysfunctional life to begin with. The whole thing screams that you all need to be in therapy. And they're not. They're all doing slightly better, but this also could have been a phone call. Her entire four-issue story arc could have been a phone call.
01:10:14
Speaker
Arguably yes, but I guess it also, and maybe it's just because they didn't write it the best. I think depending on the character and the person, there's a magnitude to that that varies depending on how much you want to grow from that relationship.
01:10:36
Speaker
Like, you know, I know for me, there's definitely some people that it's like, if I were ever to try and reconcile with someone that I would feel very compelled to do it in person. And then there's some people who kind of maybe like, you know, had somewhat of an effect that I no longer speak with, but you know, it's not as much of a priority for me. So maybe be just like, you know, oh yeah, like maybe I'll message you one day.
01:11:04
Speaker
Yeah. So and so I think that kind of depends and I think it's a shame maybe that they just didn't flesh her out enough to kind of show how important it was for her to be there in person. Yeah. This is another story where I can see this being really good and a great a great Mary Jane's story. Yeah. It is unfortunate in that it's taking place I think at the wrong time
01:11:34
Speaker
because it shouldn't be happening with Aunt Manacoma, Peter missing, and her shunted off to Pittsburgh. Yeah, I agree and slightly disagree. Because I think there's some realizations that she maybe could have from like the whole coma situation and how her marriage is kind of shitty right now.
01:12:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think that could have been written better. Yes, again, I think all of this is under the umbrella of if it could have been written better. But she does, I think she, I mean, not to spoil for next episode, but like, she does become a bit more important. And her coming back kind of adds a bit of like, suspense, I will say.
01:12:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's also for later like drama. Yeah, I think that the way that this. We're stumbling into the clone saga in with with a bunch of stories that are. Interesting, but not. Well put together.
01:12:59
Speaker
It's like they just needed another edit. Yeah. These all feel like first drafts to me, where it's like, oh, that's kind of cool. I kind of like that idea. Maybe let's go back over and flush this out a bit more and change some of the stuff that doesn't quite work. If I were to compare this to Sandman, where you have, I just think of the doll's house.
01:13:26
Speaker
where you're introduced to all of these characters. They're all going through their own emotional issues. And it's like, I'm bought in at that point. But you have these characters who we've been ostensibly involved with in some way for like 30 years at this point. And I don't really buy it. Right.
01:13:50
Speaker
It's it's it's so oddly. And I think maybe, you know, it's the tone, I think it's the tone. It's it's a function of it being a superhero comic, too. So you have to keep it moving. You have to keep the action going. Whereas, no, you can slow it down and make it. So, you know, yeah, I mean, like, think about like the movies, like not every scene is an action scene at all.
01:14:16
Speaker
Like there are slow moments, like, and that's what makes people like fall in love with them. So it's interesting. Yeah. The only, the only other thing I was going to add that I didn't like about the, the,
01:14:32
Speaker
The comic was it's not actually a feature of this comic, but it's it's in it is Daredevil's fucking costume. It is God awful. Oh, no. What's wrong with it? It's so it's like gray and he has like these big armored pieces on his shoulders and it's got a big like white patch in the middle. It's so it's so 90s and awful. I don't know if you've seen it.
01:14:58
Speaker
No, I haven't. I will look it up while you're explaining it, though, because that does sound rough. It is everything about 90s excess put into Daredevil, which is unfortunate because his red costume is so simple and so evocative and
01:15:22
Speaker
I feel like they were just adding as many accessories to him as possible to try to make it cool and exciting, and it just looks stupid. Right. Yeah. I'm not the biggest fan. I don't like gray, though. I don't love the color gray, unless you're gonna like... I love the color gray. I don't like excessive amounts of gray, you know?
01:15:49
Speaker
So interestingly, I got bored of reading Spider-Man. I didn't want to get too far ahead. My taking a break from Spider-Man involved me reading a lot of The Hulk. I just finished reading Immortal Hulk. It was one of my favorite comics. And it made me want to go back and read Peter David's run on The Hulk because The Immortal Hulk takes a lot from that.
01:16:17
Speaker
And Peter David's run literally starts with the gray Hulk becoming more of a thing. It's like when Banner turns, he doesn't turn into the green Hulk, he turns into the gray Hulk.
01:16:32
Speaker
I love the Grey Hulk. Oh, okay. My favorite version of that character, except for they give him this story that like, I know it's iconic and everyone really likes it, but he becomes a bouncer slash enforcer in Las Vegas.
01:16:51
Speaker
That's fun. And it's goofy as shit. And it's goofy in a way that's like, I had a lot of fun reading it, but I wouldn't, it's not what I would, it's not what I enjoy about that character. It was just like, Oh, that's fun. And I was ready for it to be over long before that was over. But the gray Hulk is like so, and I think part, I, I think part of why I like it so much is I just think it looks cooler than the green Hulk.
01:17:21
Speaker
I can't tell you why. I don't know. Right. I was just, oh no. Now that's really gonna hate me. I criticize the mech suit. Now it's going to be this. But I was talking with Max today about like, um, cause, uh, Henry Cavill is going to be like doing more Spider-Man stuff. Superman stuff. Oh my God.
01:17:49
Speaker
He's going to be doing more Superman stuff. And I was like, you know, that's good. Maybe I will watch like the next thing that he does because he just, he looks so much like Superman, but I really didn't want to watch any of the current like Superman stuff because I hate grayscale.
01:18:12
Speaker
I, I hate it. And it's so boring. The two things that I can't stand when it comes to like watching a movie are incredibly high contrast. Yeah. And whenever like, uh, like, uh, 300 or when things are incredibly grayscale, everything's gray.
01:18:37
Speaker
Yeah, I was kind of trying to dodge around it, but I'll just I can't stay as action either Yeah, I I don't know. I think he's good at doing like single shots and You know, he would be great at Directing a video game
01:18:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's what Sucker Punch was, basically. It was a video game turned into a movie with no video game to do. He just was like, what if this was a thing? I think he just needs to stick to a video game. I can't for me, just for me. I know there's so many people that will kiss that man as soon as they see them, and that's fine. I don't like it. You and I are on the same page.
01:19:23
Speaker
I have not liked beyond 300 and to some extent, Watchmen. And even, yeah, I have not liked really any of his movies. Like I understand where like scenes involve muted colors because of like a tone of the scene, but I can't sit and watch a whole movie like that.
01:19:50
Speaker
I can't do it. I fall asleep. It's like, and I just, I don't know, I can't do that. I could spend half an hour on his, like just going through his Justice League movie and specifically only talking about the way he handles Superman in that movie. Right. And I am not a fan. I think
01:20:19
Speaker
His version, I actually, it's four hours long, but I mostly enjoyed it. But the thing that really pulled me out of it was everything to do with Superman. And that is my complaint with Man of Steel, with Batman v Superman. It's his version of Superman fucking sucks.
01:20:42
Speaker
And in particular, the reason I can tell you I could spend half an hour on that is specifically the costume change at the end of the movie. Oh, it's like a black suit, right? Right. And there is a black suit in the comics, but it's very specific to how it's used.
01:21:05
Speaker
And it's the way thematically it's used in this movie makes way less sense. Yeah. And I hate it because I was hoping like the end of the movie, he would have a brighter costume and he doesn't. And I fucking hate it.
01:21:27
Speaker
I, yeah, I can't like, here's the thing. I'm a, I'm a Wes Anderson lady. I love a color palette, particularly color. And I like goofy symmetry sometimes. So like the, I would say the most muted movie that I enjoy is Fargo.
01:21:51
Speaker
Like, you know, like Fargo is my favorite movie. Like that and Clue. But Clue is great. Oh, Clue is iconic. Man, we should. I have the DVD. We will watch Clue. That is exactly what we are going to do tomorrow. I've decided I'll bring the DVD or you could come here. I don't know. What a time that will happen.
01:22:18
Speaker
It's been decided. But like Fargo, though, back to that, it's it's not the brightest colored movie because it's just like Midwest or North Northwest, North Midwest. It's North Dakota. It's it's North and South Dakota in winter. Look, we went to school in America. We're not good at geography.
01:22:45
Speaker
Because some people get mad when they're like, oh, that's not the Midwest. But it's like the Midwestern accent is like that Minnesota kind of thing. So it's that. And it's during the winter, so it's snowing all the time. And honestly, the way that's done, it makes it so striking because there's really bright reds with little details like the shovel or there's a little tiny marshmallow.
01:23:13
Speaker
Um, and just like the characters are colorful, like with their personality and like they do find moments of color that makes sense. And like that. Right. Like the kind of.
01:23:29
Speaker
I guess neutral tones that they use there are so striking and great, or they're really comforting and warm. And those are great. Because there's just variety. But if you're just like, it's gray every day, everyone's in a black or gray jumpsuit, and we all drive black SUVs, I can't watch it. I can. You and I have talked about how both of us sort of fell out of video games for a long time.
01:23:56
Speaker
Yeah, and are just recently getting back into them. I find I am way more drawn to the very colorful ones and I can tell you when I think one of the things that that maybe pulled me out of video games Way earlier than I was kind of expecting to like fall out of video games was
01:24:20
Speaker
for a long period, I felt like every major game that came out looked like it was just gray. Yes. And that was, uh, I, this, so I remember specifically Arkham, uh, asylum coming up. Yeah. And just thinking like, half the Joker and like Harley Quinn, they're in it, but it's just like, it's just the filter put on it. You don't get to see the greens and the reds in it as well as I would have liked.
01:24:47
Speaker
When I was sick, I was watching a video trying to, to fall asleep and it was about a Spider-Man video game that came out, I think around that same time and
01:25:00
Speaker
I remember like thinking, uh, cause I recently played a bunch of like Spider-Man games and stuff like that and being like, Oh, there's a lot of color in this. Maybe I was just like not thinking the right way, but then I was watching this video and they were playing this video, this Spider-Man game that came out around the same time. And it was all muted colors. This game looks like shit to me. It's like, I'm sure people like it.
01:25:27
Speaker
Oh, and it also could have been like at the time to you it was really bright and colorful. And then going back, you now have all these new things that are out that are super bright and colorful. And then you come back to it and you're like, oh, well, this is so different.
01:25:42
Speaker
Well, it's one of those things where it's like, when the game came out, I remember thinking it looked like dark and muddy and stuff like that. And then playing other games and seeing how like colorful they were, I was like, oh, I couldn't have been, I must have been misremembering because there's no way they would make a Spider-Man game look so like it had a fucking Instagram filter over it.
01:26:11
Speaker
Yeah, and they did. I watched this YouTube video and I was like, no, this game looks like shit. Oh, crazy. And I'm sure it's fun and people seem to really like it. One of the reasons I watched this video is because this person really liked that video game and they wanted to talk about why. And I like hearing why people like things. Yeah. I had to close my eyes at one point because I was like, I just don't care what it looks like. I want to hear you talk about the good things. But OK.
01:26:40
Speaker
Tell me about it. But yeah, so that was what you read. Yeah, I have a bit of trivia to read you. Trivia town.
01:26:51
Speaker
Serve the web, serve the web. Shut up, Brock. We don't have time. So this is a little different from when I go over your episodes, I tend to pull up the life of Riley story so that we can talk about the behind the scenes things that led to Ben Riley becoming the character that you're reading. Yes. The unfortunate part of that is when I'm talking about Peter,
01:27:18
Speaker
There's nothing to talk about except I wanted to get into Daredevil and how he is shown in this particular series. Because we talk about the way he looks and the way that he faked his death.
01:27:35
Speaker
And Brian Cronin over at, I believe this was on CBR, Brian Cronin wrote, remember to forget when Daredevil faked his death and got an armored costume. So I'm just gonna read through snippets of this so that you get an idea of like sort of what Daredevil was going through because I feel like it's weird to bring up the character and talk about the weird parts of his life and then not actually get into here's why he is this way. Okay, sure.
01:28:05
Speaker
So this is all, again, quoting from Brian Cronin. As 1992 turned into 1993, we were now thick in the middle of the era of making dramatic changes to your characters, along with special covers, of course, to help raise sales. Just in 1992 to 1993 alone, there was death and return of Superman, Batman's back being broken,
01:28:28
Speaker
the Azrael Batman debuting, Emerald Twilight, Wolverine's adamantium getting torn out, Captain America giving out lectures on the ethics of being a superhero, Peter Parker's parents showing up alive, Mr. Fantastic seemingly being killed, and a lot of those stories were based on anniversaries, like the 30th anniversaries of characters like the X-Men and the Avengers. Right.
01:28:52
Speaker
Daredevil's 30th anniversary was coming up in 1994. So 1993 began a storyline for Daredevil called Fall from Grace, which was designed to give Daredevil his dramatic change and hopefully sell enough to keep Chichester on the title. That was the person who was writing it. Right. Daredevil battles several villains and ends up tearing his costume into shreds. So he decides to rebuild it with extra padding and some armor. That's where this costume comes from. Sure.
01:29:21
Speaker
Matt then learns that Ben Urich, who we talked about in the previous episode, right, his former assistant stole notes about Matt being Daredevil and sold them to a newspaper who then printed it all up, thus exposing Matt's identity to the public, which
01:29:41
Speaker
I just want to interject not the first or the last time this will happen. It's Matt's alter ego, his dual identity.
01:29:54
Speaker
is garbage. There's a point in one of the comics I was reading recently where everyone's convinced he's Daredevil. And he pretty much does everything. He gets arrested in the middle of doing Daredevil stuff and goes to prison. And he's like, no, no, no, I'm not Daredevil. And everyone's convinced he is, but he just kind of like, again, he finds a way to get out of it. And it's so interesting to me that this keeps happening.
01:30:24
Speaker
Poor guy. Can't get a break. So Matt is then able to Daredevil-proof his apartment before the police come because everyone's like, oh, we got to go check out this lawyer who's beating people up after hours. And the assistant is arrested for stealing the information, but none of this fully proves his innocence in the public's eye. Like, everyone's still kind of like, hey, it's Daredevil.
01:30:50
Speaker
Matt then battles a demonic doppelganger of himself from the then recent infinity war crossover event. So if infinity war, if for the people who only know the movie, the comic book is not at all like the movie. The movie is essentially a weird
01:31:17
Speaker
adaptation of, I forget the name of the particular comic, but it's like Thanos' mission to collect all of the infinity gems. And then in infinity gauntlet is sort of like the last 10 minutes of the infinity war movie.
01:31:38
Speaker
And then Infinity War is way different and involves like many different aspects of like different characters coming together like Galactus gets involved and there is a person who creates doppelgangers of like Spider-Man and Daredevil, but there are weird demonic versions of them.
01:32:06
Speaker
Okay so Matt battles this demonic doppelganger of himself and when that doppelganger dies Matt takes the opportunity to fake his death because the character looks just like him. Right. This lasts less than two years worth of stories so he like fakes his death
01:32:24
Speaker
And he's like, I'm going to be someone entirely different. I'm just going to live as Daredevil, and I'll maybe create another identity. But by Daredevil, 353, Matt shows back up in court and reveals that Shield had faked his death to protect him from the kingpin. The issue also features a nod to Superman with a reporter named Lois calling her editor Perry about the big scoop. And that's how you wrap up that whole thing.
01:32:53
Speaker
It sounded like it was going to be far more interesting than it was. It's really like he just fucks his life up for two years worth of comic book stories and then just kind of goes back to being Matt Murdock and apologizes to all of his friends and they all let him off the hook. Okay. Interesting. That's the weird little bit of trivia that I had for this episode. I hopefully will have some more fun stuff in the future.
01:33:22
Speaker
I think compared to the last one you read, this is definitely like more straightforward. I liked Nocturne. I thought she was a cool character. Maybe they'll come back. I don't know. And it was cool to see Daredevil. I like the angry accountant. I think this one was fine. I liked it better than the first run for sure.
01:33:48
Speaker
I definitely did too. I was surprised at how much. And I will tell you. And I just think the bird thing is hilarious. Like, it's terrifying and hilarious. The next storyline that I read, I've already finished. I'm doing my notes for it. I liked it even more than this one.
01:34:08
Speaker
I liked the one that I read more than my first one too. I'm a little upset about it right now because there are just some huge things that just are not explained. I'm sure I'll be able to help out with that. Yeah, they definitely, we'll talk about them. We at least have so far in
01:34:35
Speaker
But so far, I think we're making sense. They are. If we just throw away and rearrange the first thing that we were read to get, like the first thing that you read, as long as that gets rearranged in our minds, everything pretty much makes sense right now. Yeah, I think we're on a good path. And the only thing that is giving me, I'm curious to see how long this goes on.
01:35:04
Speaker
The only recurring female character we have is Mary Jane and she's barely in the book. We'll talk more about that next episode. There's maybe some saving there. I had some hunches and some of my hunches are thankfully correct. So that is very validating.
01:35:34
Speaker
probably makes it more interesting. So we'll see. It'll be fine. Again, we're going to keep on keeping on. Good. Yeah.
Closing and Future Teasers
01:35:44
Speaker
So you can find more information at comicallypedantic.com. This is normally where I would say you can follow us on Twitter. I think I'm getting rid of my Twitter. OK.
01:35:57
Speaker
Not happy with it right now. And so by the time this episode comes out, it might be long gone. Goodbye, Twitter. You can follow us on Instagram by searching at pedanticast on both platforms. New episodes come out most Sundays on iTunes, Stitcher, Google podcasts, Spotify, and at comicallypedantic.com.
01:36:20
Speaker
If you have any comments or questions, you can send them in text or audio recording to comicallypadantic at gmail.com. Please indicate you'd like your name or question right on the air. Also, don't forget we still own www.fuckcomicsgate.com. You can donate directly to the internet. The game's an online harassment hotline. You can donate directly to them and you can leave them a nice little message about all the good work that they are doing. I will be adding a link to that to our link tree.
01:36:51
Speaker
We will be back soon with another deep dive into the world of comics. In fact, I believe Corinne, you will be walking us through the web of life, right? I'm going to teach you all about the birds and the bees and all the things that happen in life in this big old web that we all live in.
01:37:12
Speaker
That's what it's gonna be, not really, but it's actually a lot more straightforward than you think it would be given the title. We'll talk about it next time. Until then, you can find more exciting adventures at your local comic shop.
01:37:42
Speaker
Do you know the song? Oh God, who are the guys that sing the YMCA? The Village People. I love the Village People. So they have a song, it's called In the Navy because for some reason- Oh yeah, I love that song. We've been singing it to our cat. It checks out. And we just changed the words to fit
01:38:07
Speaker
songs about Oliver. And then I make I have him dance and it's really good. He'll do like the claps. He's very good at it.