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Superman: The Movie (1978)
286 Plays6 years ago
In the first episode, Perry and Derrick discuss the grandfather of superhero movies, 1978’s Superman directed by Richard Donner. Join in as they discuss just how influential this movie has been on superhero movies since and whether or not it still holds up today.
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Backgrounds
00:00:23
Speaker
To discover where your strength and your power are needed. To always hold in your heart the pride of your special heritage. They can be a great people color they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good. I have sent them you. My only son.
00:01:16
Speaker
Welcome to the first episode of the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm Perry Constantine.
00:01:22
Speaker
And I'm Derek Ferguson. And how are you doing today, Derek? I'm doing fine. How are you? How was your trip? I'm doing pretty good. Those of you who are just meeting us for the first time, Derek, I'm from the States, where Derek and I met online originally. But I've been living in Japan for the past 11 years now or so. Has it been there before?
00:01:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And I just went back to Chicago to visit my family and everything. And it was good. A little bit jet lag, but I actually slept almost the whole way through the night last night. So that's good. Slowly getting over it. Plane travel sucks now, doesn't it? Oh, God, it's terrible. You saw what I posted up on my Facebook about the guy I was next to on the way back. Yeah, yeah.
00:02:11
Speaker
As I'm not going to get into that here, but just watch how much you drink on those international flights. As a matter of fact, I recently went to Chicago. I went there and I had to leave early. I had to come back to New York because there was a snow. There was a snowstorm out of nowhere.
00:02:29
Speaker
When was this? Uh, what was it? It was a couple of months ago I went to, what was it, the Pope, uh... Oh, so this is like in April then? Right, April, yeah. It was like in April. See, my first trip back to Chicago was at the end of May, at the end of March, and got hit by a blizzard on the last day of March. So after that I'm just like, you know what, forget it, I'm only traveling back in the summer now.
00:02:52
Speaker
Really? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I had no idea. Apparently this snowstorm took everybody by surprise. So then I had to cut my trip short by a day I had to leave. But it was like a pain in the butt. I didn't get home to like about 11 or 12 o'clock that night. Right.
00:03:10
Speaker
with, you know, because the plane was delayed. First, they told us to come to the airport. The plane was delayed. And then they said, OK, well, it's not delayed. And it was just a big anyway. The whole point of thing is that I won't be flying anywhere anytime soon. I have to. I know exactly what you mean there.
Origins of Superhero Fascination
00:03:31
Speaker
All right. So for this first episode, you know, we're going to see just going to see how long we can keep this thing going because you and I both big superhero fans from way back. Oh, yeah. And we both love pretty much most of the movies that come out. So I thought, well, if I'm going to do a podcast like this, who better to do it with than the guy I've been talking superheroes with for like.
00:03:54
Speaker
Geez, almost 20 years now? Well, yeah, and for the folks that don't know us, you and I met through our mutual love of fan fiction. We both were writing fan fiction about like 20 years ago. That's right, yeah.
00:04:09
Speaker
And that's how we met. That's how we bonded through our mutual love of writing and superheroes and fan fiction. And you were like one of the most talented fan fiction writers out there, you know, and also I like the fact that you just had this talent for pissing everybody off.
00:04:28
Speaker
That was how we did it back then, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, I love that, man. I mean, without even trying, you wake up in the morning, boom, you know, before it's time, you know, you had 30 people mad at you. It was great. Yeah, I meld a little bit since then. Oh yeah, yeah, well, you know, you got older, you know. Exactly, yeah, yeah, it happens.
00:04:50
Speaker
All right, so we decided for this first episode, I thought, well, what better place to start than the movie that really kind of defined the superhero film
The Impact of Superman (1978)
00:05:00
Speaker
genre? I mean, there were movies before it, but none of them really took it as seriously as Superman the movie did in 1978.
00:05:09
Speaker
Uh, yeah, that's it. When, I mean, I think before Superman, probably the most popular superhero movie was the 1966 Batman with Adam West. Right. You know, that was like the most popular, but that was like the campy version that didn't take it, you know, the character seriously at all. And yeah, very tongue in cheek.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah, a very tiny Chico. And it was based, of course, on the wildly popular TV show that was on ABC at that time.
00:05:41
Speaker
Now, the thing about Superman, the movie, and this is what I tell people all the time, I say, you know, well, every superhero movie since then, since it came out, up to and including Avengers Endgame, bows down to Superman, the movie, because it is my firm belief that we would not have
00:06:01
Speaker
any of the superhero movies that we've had since then, if it had not been for the success both financially and critically of Superman, the movie. Yeah, and it's a movie that the filmmakers have acknowledged that they've gone back to many times. You look at John Favreau in interviews or the Russo brothers or pretty much anyone, they'll talk about how Superman the movie was a big influence.
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. I mean, Superman movie for a lot of years and in a lot of ways, it's still like the template for superhero movies. Yeah, especially the origin movie. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. In fact, I'd actually argue that's why the superhero origin movie became like the standard up until really the MCU and which is why a lot of sequels floundered.
00:06:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I agree because a lot of they took that template. OK, well, we got to do the origin story, even though everybody knows the origin story of Superman. But the difference in Superman, the movie is that we had never seen it done this well and on such an epic scale. I mean, I watched the movie today to get ready for this. And I haven't seen it in about like two years. And I watched the three hour version.
00:07:18
Speaker
Okay, so I saw you post this on Facebook saying you're gonna watch it. So which version did you watch? Did you watch the extended cut or the... I watched it to the other version. Yeah, the extended version. This is the version that our footage was added by the Salkins when the movie was shown on TV, on ABC, and ABC when they showed it. They showed it in two nights.
00:07:44
Speaker
Yeah, it was like one of those two night thing where so they added I think like almost like another hour worth of stuff. So I watched the extended thing because I haven't seen because I haven't really sat down and watch Superman from beginning in in like two years. So I said, well, you know what, if I'm going to watch it, I'm going to do it right. I'm going to watch the whole three hour version, which I did. And you know what?
00:08:08
Speaker
After about like 10 minutes, even though I've seen this movie, I mean, I saw it during this original theatrical run. So I've seen Superman, I would estimate like a good 20 to 30 times since 1978. 10 minutes in, it was like I'd never watched this movie before. I'm sitting here and I'm just, you know, and my wife said, have you seen this before? I said, quiet, quiet, watch your Superman.
00:08:32
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So this is actually something I wanted to ask you because, you know, I'm a little bit younger than you. And for me, I can't really remember a time before having watched Superman the movie because it came out before I was even born. And so I watched it at some point when I was a little kid and my family had the original, the old VHS copy. I watched that damn tape so much as a kid that the damn thing broke.
00:09:00
Speaker
I can never remember a time. I can't remember the first time I watched it. So what was it like for you the first time you watched it? Oh, my God. It was like, OK, first of all, it was an event. It was because you had to remember something.
00:09:17
Speaker
You got a superhero movie with Marlon Brando, who at that time was like the most famous and highly regarded actor in the world because of The Godfather, which had come out a few years earlier. You had Gina Hackman, who was one of the best actors in the world.
00:09:35
Speaker
I, you know, which is why this movie has such anticipation because you had never before had a superhero movie that has so much top talent attached to, you know, even in even in small roles, because you had like Ned Beatty had a small role, you had Terence Stamp and Terence Stamp, Valerie, Valerie Perrine, Larry Hagman was in this movie in the small role. Yeah.
00:10:01
Speaker
I mean, Jackie Cooper, Jackie Coogan. Yeah. I mean, you had so many Glenn Ford playing Paul Kent. You had, you know, this is why this movie was so highly anticipated because just the talent that was attached to it. Let everybody know. OK, they're taking this seriously. And, you know, they did when I saw it. I mean, people was cheering. They were clapping that when Superman rescues Lois Lane.
00:10:30
Speaker
You know, when she falls from the helicopter and, oh, you couldn't hear anything for like five minutes after, because the theater went nuts. You know, everybody, yeah, everybody went crazy, you know. Yeah, it was, and of course, this was before, you know, Blu-ray and VHS, stuff like that. So when you wanted to see a movie, you had to go back and see it. I saw it in the theater like three or four times myself. Yeah. And a lot of people did. We just kept going back and seeing it because
00:10:59
Speaker
We literally had never seen anything like this up until then. We had never seen a superhero done in such a respectful manner and done so straight and played with such gravitas and you know it was really something
00:11:16
Speaker
Okay, back then now, you know, we're all jaded. We've had the MCU, we've had, you know, 85 Batman movies, we've got animated movies, so we're kind of jaded now. But back then, if you were around back then, yeah, Superman the movie was something special.
00:11:32
Speaker
Yeah. And it's not only in terms of superhero movies, but in terms of just event movies like big blockbuster movies in general. This was that time period when blockbuster movies really started to appear because this was like the era of Star Wars and Jaws. But before that, you didn't really have the tentpole blockbuster movies like you do now. Right. Yeah, because Superman came out in 78, I believe. Yeah. And yeah, Star Wars was 77.
00:12:00
Speaker
And I think George was like 77 or 78 or one of those. Yeah. So this was like when you got a member of some to this was like this movie costs something like 55 million dollars, which of course now is just a catering budget for MCU movie right back then. This was like the most expensive movie that had ever been made.
00:12:19
Speaker
Mm hmm. You know, yeah. And, you know, people were wondering, you know, well, is this going to pay? Well, hey, yeah, it paid off big time because I think the movie like during its theatrical run, it made something like three or four hundred million dollars, which, of course, now we have movies do that in one weekend. But back then, it was unheard of that a movie could make three or four hundred million dollars. You know, we talk about the 70s. This is like, what are you kidding me? Well, I'm looking at the IMDB trivia and, you know,
00:12:49
Speaker
take this stuff with a grain of salt because anyone can add facts in here and everything, but one of the things that's mentioned here is that in the initial run, the film topped the box office charts for 13 consecutive weeks. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:13:04
Speaker
Know why? Because, again, we're talking about the 1970s. And in the 1970s, as long as a movie was making money, it stayed in the theater. They didn't take it out. It's not like now where a movie stays
Iconic Performances and Music
00:13:20
Speaker
in the theater for maybe three or four weeks.
00:13:24
Speaker
Yeah. And then it's gone. Unless, of course, we have something like an Avengers Endgame where everybody and even then it's only in the theater for maybe like two or three months tops. And then it's gone. Right. It was endgame. Endgame was in the theater for about, I think, maybe three months. And then they re-released it with additional footage. Right. Exactly. But back then, in the 1970s, as long as a movie was making money, it stayed the godfather. I went to see it for a whole. It played the same theater for a whole year.
00:13:55
Speaker
Star Wars played the same theater for a whole year because people kept going back to see it Superman was in the theater I think all I think it probably wasn't the theater for almost like a whole year because people just kept going back like I said
00:14:09
Speaker
Back then, this was the only way that you could see a movie over was that you had to go back to the theater to see it. Right. They had no home video distributions. No. There was no contracts with home video distributors, with Netflix, nothing like that. They had to worry about interfering with.
00:14:25
Speaker
No, yeah, absolutely not. So, you know, and I mean, movies were a lot cheaper back then. So, you know, you're only like maybe like four or five bucks to go see a movie. So, yeah. So people go back. So, yeah. So it was not unheard of for a movie to play in the theater for. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. It's quite plausible that Superman was number one for 13 weeks. Yeah.
00:14:50
Speaker
And what's really amazing about this movie is I think more than any other superhero movie is how much it's influenced how the comics have done the character, too. Because, I mean, for my part, I think this is probably the definitive Superman origin story. Oh, yeah. Yeah. For me, this is the one.
00:15:15
Speaker
Because again, we've never seen Krypton portrayed like this. Yeah. You know, we've never seen Superman's father portrayed with such gravitas as Marlon Brando did it. I mean, this was a guy, you know, Marlon Brando. I mean, when he pops up and he's playing Jor-El, well, OK, automatically you're taking this seriously now.
00:15:37
Speaker
Which is amazing because Brando himself did not take it seriously at all. Like every account you've read about people who knew him, people who were on the set, they're just like, he was so lazy. He was at the peak of his financial success. So he just did not give any shits at this point.
00:15:57
Speaker
He didn't memorize anything. He read all his lines off of cue cards. Off of cue cards. Which is amazing. Makes it all the more incredible because that's an amazing performance. I read one time that they said that if you ever see a Marlon Brando movie and like he pauses and he's looking around
00:16:18
Speaker
He's looking around for the cue card so he can read his next slide. That's what he does. That's not just acting. You know, he makes it look like he's that like he's thinking deep and he's contemplating. They said, no, he's actually looking around to see who has the cue card so he can read it. Because it's more the brown didn't read, you know, he didn't memorize anything, I believe. Right. 90 percent of that dialogue that's in what was that Vietnam War movie he made? Apocalypse Now. Yeah.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah, 90 percent of that stuff. They said he made that shit up off the top of his head. Well, and here are some of the things that Brando even said, like he suggested that he only do voiceover and that the character's image on screen should be a glowing, levitating green bagel. Yeah. Because because he said that nobody because no one knows what people on Krypton would look like.
00:17:09
Speaker
Well, Marlon Brando was notoriously lazy. If he could get out of doing actual work, he would. That's one reason why in that movie, most of the time he's in shadow because he was overweight and out of shape.
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, because and he didn't want to be, you know, he didn't want to be shown completely on screen because he was so fat and out of shape at that time, you know. Right. Yeah, Marlon Brando was notorious with Mario Puzo, who wrote the screenplay for this movie.
00:17:44
Speaker
And who also, like Randall, was coming off as the success of The Godfather, and he's another reason why this movie was treated so seriously, because they said, oh, wait a minute, Mario Puzo, the guy that wrote The Godfather? There's something interesting about Puzo, which I didn't know until I was doing some research to prep for this, in that Puzo's original script was apparently complete camp.
00:18:09
Speaker
and like he did not take it seriously at all and they even had he even had one thing that he wrote in there which was going to be Terry some uh telly savallis having a cameo doing his who loves you baby um uh catchphrase at the time and this is like this is like what his that was the tone of his script it was like very
00:18:27
Speaker
very cheesy, very, you know, very camp. And then when Donner came in, he's like, oh, hell no, we're not doing this. And then he brought in Tom Mankiewicz. So even though Puzo gets the credit, most of what we see in the movie is Tom Mankiewicz's writing. Oh, I can believe that because I've also heard that the only reason why Mario Puzo did the screenplay was that he was a heavy gambler and he needed the money to pay off a lot of gambling debts. Yeah.
00:18:56
Speaker
That's what I heard. And basically what they had to do was that they had to lock him in a hotel room to make him, you know, finish writing the screenplay. Otherwise they said he'd get up and he, you know, go out and, you know, play cards or whatever it was that he liked doing. And he wouldn't, you know, and he wouldn't work. But they said, yeah, that's why he basically he just took the job just to pay off his gambling debts. Yeah.
00:19:20
Speaker
All right, so what do you wanna, where should we go with this film? Like really first, what's the first thing you wanna that stood out to you when you were rewatching it? Okay, the one thing that stood out to me that always stands out to me is this movie succeeds because Christopher Reeve.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yes. I mean, OK, we've had what four or five different Superman since then. But this is the guy that everybody, when you say Superman, guaranteed Christopher Reeve, his image is going to pop in your head because of this movie.
00:19:56
Speaker
Right. And even, and those other actors, I think probably with the exception of Dean Cain and Henry Cavill, almost every single one, very heavily based his performance on Christopher Reeve. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how iconic it is. And I was watching it and I was just amazed at, okay.
00:20:20
Speaker
Here's a perfect example. There is one scene in this movie where he actually turns into Superman before your very eyes. Yes. To me, it's like the greatest special effect in the movie. He's standing there as Clark Kent, and he's talking to Lois Lane. And he's contemplating telling her that he's Superman. And he takes off his glasses, and he's straight. And he does something with his body, and it's just like his whole thing. When he does that, you see how Superman can get away with pretending to be Clark Kent.
00:20:47
Speaker
And then he changes right back when he realizes he doesn't want to tell her yet. He puts the glasses back on. He hunches over. And it's amazing. It's a total transformation. And I always cite this scene when people say, oh, how could glasses fool anyone? I'm like, because it's not just the glasses. It's everything. Because you look at him, and you see him, and you think, well, maybe he kind of looks a little bit like Superman. But you'd never think that.
00:21:14
Speaker
this mild-mannered, you know, meat guy could be Superman. Right, because he does something with his entire body, his facial expression, his voice, and he does it. And you said, okay. And like you say, you watch that and you see how Superman could get away with pretending to be Clark Kent, because Christopher Reed does it, right? Exactly. He shows you how Superman gets away with pretending to be Clark Kent. He's showing you right in front of it. And like I said, it's the best special effect in the movie.
00:21:43
Speaker
because he's doing it with no tricks, no camera tricks, anything like that. It's just him, and it's simply amazing. And yeah, the whole movie, like I said, we believe it because we believe him. Yeah. From start to finish, this guy is Superman. No question, no doubt. I give the rest of the guys their props. They're good, but hey, when you say Superman, it's Christopher Reeve. I'm sorry. He's the guy.
00:22:10
Speaker
Oh, definitely, definitely. Like every time I thought about Superman, it's always been this guy. This is who he is. Although the one thing that sticks out to me a little bit is from a modern perspective, I think his Clark Kent is a little bit too over the top.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's one of the things I liked about Brandon Routh in Superman Returns, that he plays Clark Kent as more of a wallflower type, the kind you just kind of like, you don't even notice he's there. Right, yeah. Christopher Reeve, looking at it now, like you said, looking at it now, yeah, his talking is a little bit too bumbling.
00:22:48
Speaker
Mm hmm. I myself always put always. Well, I didn't prefer it, but I like George Reeves from the black and white Superman TV show from the 50s. Oh, yeah. His clock. It was a little bit more of a hard ass.
00:23:04
Speaker
So it was kind of like, wasn't he, I haven't seen the Adventures of Superman TV show that you're talking about, but I've heard, from what I've heard, isn't it, is it kind of similar to Dean Kane's Clark Kent? Yeah, yeah, kind of similar. You know, he doesn't play Clark Kent as kind of like stumbling, bumbling, because you would figure that a guy who's a crime reporter would have a little bit more backbone, a little bit more, you know, grit and stuff like that.
00:23:28
Speaker
And that's how George Reeves played his Clark Kent. His Clark Kent was like, you know, he wasn't, you know, bumbling and, you know, stumbling and everything like that. He was a guy, you know, like he would go to confront like a gangsters and stuff like that. And they would say, oh, shit, Clark Kent, you know, you know.
00:23:49
Speaker
And that's a good point. That's why the whole bumbling type of Clark Kent doesn't really work for me. Because it makes you wonder, how can anyone take this guy seriously as a reporter? Right. Which is why I do like the Wallflower interpretation. Because he's someone who could be standing there. You have a whole conversation talking about some deep, dark secret. And you don't even notice he's there. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
00:24:16
Speaker
I know now I understand why he played Clark Kent that way in the movie, because, yeah, well, it's a movie, so it's a little bit more broader performance. So I kind of get why he made that choice to do it. But yeah, I would prefer that his car can't was because he's like always tripping over his feet and dropping his hat and, you know, doing a little nervous little twitches and stuff like that that I don't really feel that Clark Kent needs. But hey,
00:24:46
Speaker
You know is what it is and you know I think that's also part of because there is a lot of push and pull with this movie You know in production because you had you had Donner who wanted to do it right who wanted to take it seriously and then you had the Salkins who? Didn't really want that like they wanted it to be more camp. They they wanted it to be under budget They wanted it to be cheaper. So there's that I think that's kind of that
00:25:12
Speaker
Reed's performance is kind of indicative of that. You know, you got these very serious and on point of Superman, whereas Clark Kent is a little bit more campy.
Character and Plot Analysis
00:25:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's why also that you get the more humorous Lex Luthor. Right. And his bumbling assistant, played by Gene Hackman, and his bumbling assistant Otis, played by Ned Beatty. You know, I think that's why, because the Lex Luthor that we get in there is, and I've heard people say this and I agree with, that's more like a villain that you would have seen in the Batman TV series.
00:25:45
Speaker
Right. So that's actually a good next point to go on is what is your overall opinion of Gene Hackman as Luther in this movie? I actually, you know what, first of all,
00:25:56
Speaker
Can we agree that he's got the best super villain hideout in all of superhero movies? If you're not, yeah, I would say that I would have gone with Blofeld, but that's not superhero. So right. So yeah, I'll give you that. I mean, this guy is living up on the Grand Central Station in this abandoned
00:26:15
Speaker
a train station, and it's I mean, it's magnificent. I mean, he's got he's got a sunken pool. He's got, you know, these big a column, the arches. He's got these massive lights that he has to tug on his huge bell room to turn off. And oh, it's great. The big library there that he has to climb from the ladders to get the. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's got that ladder. I mean, OK, it's not.
00:26:41
Speaker
The Lex Luthor that a lot of us are used to, because we're used to the brilliant, devious, scientific mastermind Lex Luthor. This one is a little bit more on the comedic side. And it is very funny, because when my wife first saw this movie years later, when I was turning her on, because my wife had never been interested in science fiction movies or superhero movies until she met me.
00:27:10
Speaker
And so we watch the Superman movie and she says, oh, she said, oh, well I see why you like this so much. I said, well, why? What are you talking about? She said, oh, Lex Luthor. I said, what are you talking about? She said, oh, that's you.
00:27:25
Speaker
I never thought about that before, but yeah, that doesn't work. And to this day, she will maintain that year. She said that, oh yeah, they base that Lex Luthor. She said, that's you, 100%. But yeah, but you know what? I enjoy his performance because it's obvious that Hackman is having a good time. Yeah.
00:27:46
Speaker
You know, this is a role he's never played before. I understood that he refused to play it bald all the way through the movie. Well, he even refused to shave his mustache at first, too. So this is a little funny trivia. I don't know if you know this, but because he had a mustache at the time. And in the early one sheets, like they took, you know, they took photos, he had his mustache on in them. And then he was talking to Donner about the role. And Donner said, look, you shave your mustache, I'll shave mine.
00:28:16
Speaker
And the thing is, they had never met in person at that point, and Donner didn't actually have a mustache. So when they met, Donner had a fake mustache that he peeled off. Oh, that's cold. That's cold. No, I did not know that. I know that Hackman, he absolutely refused to shave his head, and when he shows up at the end, bull, that's like a skull cap that he's wearing. You know, like a bull skull cap he's wearing. Yeah, because he said, no. He said, I'm not. He said, no, he's not shaving my head. So you know what? I really don't mind.
00:28:46
Speaker
Uh, I'd Lex Luthor with hair.
00:28:49
Speaker
You know, that's not, I mean, you know, that's not a deal breaker for me because it's such a wonderful, it's such a wonderful performance from Hackman. Like I said, he's so obviously having fun. Right. I mean, and plus you've got, you know, Hackman and then, you know, you had John Shea and Adventures of Superman who also didn't shave his head or wear a bald cap until like the second season or something like that. Right. Yeah. And in that first season, you know, the soap operantics aside, he was a really good Luther as well.
00:29:19
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, besides Hackman, John Shea is like my second favorite. I think my favorite is probably Michael Rosenbaum.
00:29:30
Speaker
OK, see, I never watched enough for Smallville. I know that you were, you know, you didn't care for the show too much. It was. I like I really like the first three seasons. And then after that, it kind of goes off the rails. But and I just actually did a rewatch. Well, kind of a rewatch. I had it on in the background as I was doing other stuff just because it was on Hulu. OK.
00:29:53
Speaker
You know, Rosenbaum's performance is really good. He's like the best thing about the show. Him and, um...
00:30:03
Speaker
all the guy who plays uh... his dad final luther uh... he's also on brimstone and he was in gremlins to and what are you talking about i can see the young lover junk lover that yet yeah like here those two together they were amazing give me uh... give me a luther show star those two focused on their dynamic i would have been all over that and all but like the rest of the cast you had uh...
00:30:29
Speaker
John Schneider is Jonathan Kent and those those three like they they were all great. Everyone else you know they it was not that good especially after season three they just kind of because they had this thing where they wanted to do a Superman show but they didn't want to have Superman in it and they kind of ran out of stories to tell.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah, see, that's why I never started watching it. I mean, I would catch the episode here and there, here and there, like, especially toward the end, like, when they started adding on other superheroes like Aquaman and Green Arrow and the Justice Society, you know. But I never got into it because I'm really not a fan of this.
00:31:11
Speaker
thing that Warner Brothers seem to have is that they always want to have a Superman and Batman show, but not have Superman and Batman in it. It was also strange because they had all Superman's villains. They had all the superheroes he knows in costume. And yeah, they couldn't have him as Superman. So they even had to give him another superhero identity. So it just seemed really bizarre. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I'm sorry. I couldn't see the point. You know what? I don't mind them having a show about young Clark Kent.
00:31:41
Speaker
But you know You got to have some kind of connection to him because because I read someplace that it wasn't until like the last The very last scene of the very last episode that he was in costume Yeah, and even then you didn't see him in full costume
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So it was really weird. It's kind of like the thing with Gotham where it's, you want a Batman show, you have all the Batman villains, but you don't want to have Batman in it. So I just don't understand that logic.
00:32:12
Speaker
And I couldn't understand that either because, okay, you're going to have Bruce Wayne. He's still like, what, like 10 years old, but all of his villains are like in what, their twenties or stuff like that. So you're telling me that when it becomes Batman, now he's beating up on guys. I'm like, exactly what? Like, you know, like they're what they got to be what in their late forties or fifties or something like that. Yeah. You know what Gotham should have been. It should have just been about the crime laws that ran Gotham before the supervillains came along.
00:32:42
Speaker
Right, which is what it should which is what I thought it was going to be to begin with. But they they didn't really know what they wanted to be. It should have been just a straight crime show. Right. You know, Jim Gordon, he comes in and he's fighting the corruption in the Gotham Police Department. And in the meantime, you got these crime laws. And then in the last season of Gotham, then you see the supervillains starting to, you know, pop up. Right.
00:33:06
Speaker
That's what it should have been. You know, I watched it for like the first couple of seasons because I enjoyed the gang war between Oswald Cobblepot and the character played by Jada Pinkett Smith, Fish Mooney. Oh, Fish Mooney, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Now, OK, now see.
00:33:25
Speaker
That, OK, that I liked. And that's what it should have been. And then they introduced what was his name? Carmine Falcone. Yeah. And you know, yeah, that's what it should have been. It should have been just a straight crime show about the crime bosses that ran Gotham before Batman and supervillains. Oh, and the guy who plays who plays Cobblepot is great, too. Oh, he was fantastic. Yeah.
00:33:47
Speaker
So it's kind of like the smallville thing where you got this great talent in there and you're just kind of wasting them in this show that does not deserve them.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Although a lot of people I know and you both, you and I both know, you know, they love Gotham. They say, oh, it's a great show. It's fantastic. And I said, you know what? It's on Netflix. Maybe this winter when I'm stuck in the house, I'll give a rewatch and see how I feel about it. But at the time, I really, like I said, I'm really not interested in a superhero show that doesn't want to have superheroes in it. You know, that's not my.
00:34:22
Speaker
If you're going to do a superhero show, well, then damn it, commit to it. And put the damn superheroes in there. Especially in this day and age. Like, there's no reason not to now. Right. Exactly. OK, I could see it back in the 60s and 70s where they didn't have the technology and they didn't have the budget. Right. I can understand that. But no, not now. Like I said, you know, we have the technology we have where you can do these special effects and really not spend a lot of money on doing it, you know, because it's all computers anyway. Yeah.
00:34:51
Speaker
What I think about taking it back to Superman the movie is I kind of agree with you a lot about Hackman's Luther. He's fun. He's a lot of fun. That's kind of the thing where
00:35:04
Speaker
This is kind of that situation where there are parts of the movie that the tone just doesn't quite fit together. Like you got the Bumbling Clark Kent, you got Lex Luthor and the real estate scheme, and they don't quite match the tone of like Marlon Brando on Krypton and Christopher Reeve's performance as Superman.
00:35:24
Speaker
Which, which, okay, a lot of people criticize the real estate scheme, but you know something? I like it because it's not the typical supervillain trying to take over the world. That it's interesting, but it's just, my thing is it does, it feels small for Lex Luthor.
00:35:41
Speaker
Well, that's true. If you know the Lex Luthor that we know, yeah, I mean, you know, for the Lex Luthor of that movie and that particular Lex Luthor played by Gene Hackman, okay, yes. But for the traditional Lex Luthor, yeah, you know, no, that would be nah. Right. So, I mean, that's the only thing. Like, I agree. It's nice. It's different from the, you know, I want to take over the world or I want to destroy the world.
00:36:07
Speaker
And you know what? He's got a kind of logic, a warp logic in there, because you buy up all this cheap real estate in Nevada, and then you blow up California, and then all of a sudden you got beachfront property. I can kind of see that logic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen. Listen. OK. Taking for what it is, that's a brilliant scheme. But for Lex Luthor, like you said, if you know him from the comic books,
00:36:33
Speaker
Yeah, that's something that Lex Luthor wouldn't be involved in. But for a lot of people watching this movie who see this, this would probably really been their first exposure to Lex Luthor. So they wouldn't know him from the gun. So they would say, okay, yeah, you know, that's pretty good.
00:36:51
Speaker
Going back to when you said you make a good point about the shifting tone of this movie because it goes from being like you said it's on Krypton and it's deadly serious and the plan is blowing up and people fall into chasms and you know and then we go to Kansas
00:37:09
Speaker
Which is, you know, serious, but not so serious. But then we do got Paul Kent dying. Right. And you got that. But this is one of the things that drove me nuts about Man of Steel and comparing it to Superman is
00:37:26
Speaker
Clark Kent can't do anything about Pa Kent dying. Whereas in Man of Steel, he makes the choice to do nothing. Yeah. Yeah. And that moment when he's standing at the funeral and he says, you know, all those things I can do, all those powers, and I couldn't even save him. I mean, that is Superman right there. That's him in a nutshell. Like, he doesn't think of himself as a god. He's humbled by this thing. And he knows that. Like, there's this great line in
00:37:55
Speaker
I think it was a Superman Batman comic book where Batman's narration says something like
00:38:06
Speaker
Superman is you know, he has the power of a god, you know, he seems like very you know down to earth and very normal but then he shoots fire from the sky and We all can't help but think of him as a god and it says and you know lucky for us. He doesn't realize that himself right exactly he he doesn't think of himself that way and there's a good I'm glad you brought that up because I
00:38:31
Speaker
One of the things people always complain about this movie is about, oh, he turns the world back around at the end. Oh, that's so silly. That's so stupid. But however, the whole setup is when we go back to that scene where Pa Kent tells him, you know, okay, you weren't here.
00:38:51
Speaker
just to score touchdowns. And then he dies, and like you said, he's at that grave site, and he's thinking, and he's saying, yeah, you know, I got all these powers that I couldn't save him. Then we go into the movie where he turns the world back around to save Lois Lane. He hears them saying words. And he hears Jor-El telling him, listen, you can't interfere. And he makes a conscious choice because he says, hey, you know what? Maybe I couldn't save my father, but I'm going to save this woman that I love.
00:39:20
Speaker
That's the whole gist of the scene, the turning back around the world, okay, yeah, whatever, but that's the whole point. He's making a conscious decision, okay, I couldn't save my father, but I'm gonna save her. Well, here's something else about the turning back the world scene, that everybody misinterprets, all right? And he's not literally flying around the world and turning it backwards, and that's how he's turning back time. No, he's flying back through time. He's flying back through time. It's just a visual signal.
00:39:49
Speaker
right yeah we just remember they don't have they don't have this was before all these CGI special effects so you know turning flying back around the world and having it turned backwards that was a that was a nice visual shorthand back then for you know he's going back in time
00:40:06
Speaker
Right, he's actually flying back through time. Exactly. Yeah, he's not actually turning the world back around. A lot of people don't get that. But hey, there's a lot of things about this movie that people don't get. They say, oh, I don't like this. And you know what? You know what? Some of it is valid. But some of it, I just say, well, you know what? If you've listened to me and Tom are better than the dog plenty of times, we had this thing where he said, sometimes you just have to go with it. Right, right.
00:40:36
Speaker
You know, let's talk about some of the supporting cast. So let's start with probably the obvious choice. Margot Kidder is Lois Lane. Lois Lane. My second favorite Lois Lane. Oh, your second favorite. Who's your first? Oh, from Noel Neal. Oh, the adventure Superman TV show, who also appears in this movie as Lois Lane's mother. Oh, that's right. Yeah.
00:41:01
Speaker
Yeah, there's the thing that's on the train. And Lois Lane, she's a little girl, and she sees the teenage Clark Kent running alongside. That's right. He's racing the train. And she says, oh, Mommy, Mommy, Mommy, there's the man outside. He's running alongside the train. And the woman that she's calling Mommy, that's Noel Neal. And the man sitting across from her who plays her father is Kirk Allen, who was playing Superman in Superman serial from the 1940s.
00:41:28
Speaker
That's right. Yeah, I'd read something about that. Yeah. Yeah. Because they obviously couldn't get George Rees for this. He was dead by this point. Right. Yeah. But it wasn't nice. Yeah, but it was a nice thing to have. And as a matter of fact, Noel Neal was also in Superman Returns as well. I was about to mention that. Yeah, she's the old widow that Lex Luthor romances. Mm-hmm.
00:41:53
Speaker
And that was the start of the superhero cameo too, where you bring in characters who were in a previous iteration, which now that's all the rage on the CW, right? They got all the characters who had played superheroes in the past coming in and playing some version of characters on the new shows now.
00:42:14
Speaker
Well, I heard that they're actually going to have Brandon and Ralph play Superman in the big crossover that they're going to have. Right. And they actually brought in, they're bringing Bert Ward in too. Oh, cool. Yeah. I mean, they haven't announced who Bert Ward's playing, but I think it's pretty obvious he's going to be playing like an older Dick Grayson.
00:42:38
Speaker
Or unless they have them play like the Batman. No, I don't know. Play the Batman Beyond version of what we call Bruce Wayne. No, they got someone to do that. I'm hoping they would get Michael Keaton. No, they can get Michael Keaton, but they got the next best thing. Who? Who do you think? Who's the other person who could play that old Batman as well, if not better than Michael Keaton? I'm Kevin Conroy. Exactly, yeah. They got Kevin Conroy coming in to play Batman.
00:43:06
Speaker
Oh, OK. Well, well, listen, good enough. Listen, if anybody deserves to play Batman live action, it's him. And it'll be the first time he's done it live action, too. Yeah, because he's played Batman longer than anybody else. Yeah, actually, yeah.
00:43:22
Speaker
But yeah, Margot Kidder, yeah, she's my second favorite Lois Lane. And one thing I love about her character, and this is one of the little character bits that scattered all throughout the movie. It doesn't really mean anything, but I always like it. I love the fact that she's a terrible speller. Yeah, me too.
00:43:41
Speaker
She's always misspelling words, and Perry White, he's always correcting her copy, and she's always asking people how to spell words like rapists and bloodletting. And you say, my God, what is she writing? That's something else that's interesting. Because they use 1970s New York as a stand-in for Metropolis in this movie.
Superman's Adaptability and Relatability
00:44:02
Speaker
And you get those little things, and then you've got Clark Kent, Superman.
00:44:08
Speaker
You know, everyone says, you know, Man of Steel Defenders, they say, well, you can't do classic Superman in the modern day because he just doesn't fit. I'm like, well, 1970s New York, people would have said the same thing, but they're able to make, they draw those contrasts very well.
00:44:27
Speaker
Mmm, good point. Yeah, okay. Man, I can go for that. I see that. And especially, I mean, well, you were in New York in the 70s, so you'd know better than anyone when it was like back then.
00:44:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, you know what? Every time I watch this movie from, you know, I always get like a wave of nostalgia because, yeah, that's the New York I grew up with. And I remember like I like any time I watch any movie from the 70s and 80s. And I know that I get this from people all the time. They're always asking me when they read one of my reviews of a movie.
00:44:59
Speaker
Reviews at the Ferguson Theater. Shameless plug. People had read my reviews from seven. They said, oh, well, was New York really like that back then? I said, yeah. I said pretty much was. You know, that's what it was. To me, it's actually surprising how how representative of New York of the 1970s that this movie
00:45:22
Speaker
is because, yeah, that's pretty much how it was. Right. And, you know, I didn't realize that until I learned more about New York back then, you know, talking to you, just doing general research and stuff. But you see those little hints all throughout, like, you know, the types of stories Lois is writing. And then, like, when Clark changed into Superman, he comes out and the pimp is talking to him. Yeah. And he just had like, oh, excuse me a moment.
00:45:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Oh, I mean, I love when I saw that in the movie theater that got such a big laugh. That's a bad outfit. Yeah. And Superman always always polite says, excuse me. Yeah. I got to go. I got to go catch the helicopter when he does the interview with Lois. And, you know, he says I'm here to fight for truth justice in the American way. And she laughs and says you're going to end up fighting every elected official in the country. And again,
00:46:17
Speaker
We go back to this whole movie hinges on Chris. He says that line, and he says it with such utter sincerity that you have no doubt that this is what he honestly believes. I'm here to fight for truth, justice, and the American way. Yeah. And he says with such a simple sincerity that, yeah, I mean, that guy, he sells that scene. 100%.
00:46:43
Speaker
One of the things I like about Margot Kidder is she is... and she's also got that sincerity. Like, she commits really well to this role. And, you know, she's no-nonsense, she's serious, but every time she sees Superman, like, she's just completely awestruck. Like, that scene when, after he leaves the interview, and then Clark shows up, and she's just completely stuttering, and she says, like, you know, that's Clark Nice. Oh, yeah, she's Gaga. She's totally Gaga. And you know what I like, too? Okay, Margot Kidder.
00:47:12
Speaker
She's a beautiful woman. Don't get me wrong. And I've seen them perch her. As a matter of fact, I saw her one time at a convention and I got a kiss from her. Oh, I didn't. I didn't wash that cheek for about a month. Oh, OK. She but she's not she's not OK. She's not like.
00:47:31
Speaker
How can I put this? She's not like Kim Basinger. Right. Beautiful. She's beautiful in her own way. Right. But she's not like dazzling, you know, knock your socks off. It's a beauty that sneaks up on you. Right. Right. Like the more you look at her, the more appealing she becomes. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's got that type of beauty. Like you look at her at first and you say, Oh yeah. Okay. But then the longer you look at her,
00:47:57
Speaker
The more you say, yeah, you know what? Yeah, she's got something there. You know, she's yeah. You know, and then by the time you gradually start to see with Superman, you know, see that see why Superman is falling in love with her. Right. It's not it's not her appearance. It's it's her tenacity. It's her spirit.
00:48:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. She's not like say like, okay, who was another beautiful woman that's in this movie? Valerie Perron. Now Valerie Perron is just wow. You know, I mean your jaw drops. Exactly. But that's because of her, you know, she's got that. I mean, let's face it. Physically the woman's a knockout, you know? So, but that's a different type of beauty. It's not necessarily better or worse. It's just different.
00:48:40
Speaker
Well, you didn't see that, too, when she helps Superman at the end. Right before she takes the kryptonite off him, she kisses him. And then after she takes it off, he says, why did you kiss me first? She says, well, I thought you wouldn't let me after. And he just kind of tenderly touched her cheek.
00:48:58
Speaker
And you believe her that she's right about that because he wouldn't have. That's not what he's interested in. Yeah. And that brings up an interesting point. Roger Moore wrote in his autobiography that he was at the studios when they were shooting this movie. And he said he saw Christopher Reeve walking across the soundstage dressed in a Superman costume. And he was completely oblivious to all these women who were fawning all over him.
00:49:27
Speaker
Mm-hmm. And that's that's another example of just like, you know, this guy was really kind of like Superman in his in his real life, too. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've heard that, too, from people. They say that when they were on the set and he showed up and he was in this car, it was like people like, you know, got a little bit in awe. They said, wow, you know, this guy. Yeah, this guy is Superman, you know.
00:49:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean because this is also before the you know, the modern-day superhero movies. We've got these very expensive Textured costumes that really make you believe like the the superhero spandex look would work right and In in the past when they tried those types of outfits, they don't really work so well like in sit Batman 66 right but
00:50:16
Speaker
Something about the outfit in this movie, something about Reeve's performance. It just all clicks together, even though it shouldn't. Well, you know what? First of all, see, this movie gets right what Superman Returns did. You know what I did like about that costume? Remember that little teeny tiny S shield he has on his chest? Yeah. No, no. The neckline was too high. The shorts were kind of off too.
00:50:43
Speaker
But the S is supposed to completely cover the chest because this provides a kind of illusion and it even makes the chest look broader than what it actually is. Exactly. Yeah. Because the S shield is covering the whole chest. And yeah, that, you know, Christopher Reeve had to bulk up a little bit.
00:51:04
Speaker
you know, to fill out the costume. But I like the fact he's not bulging with muscle because for one, Superman's super strength doesn't depend on him having a lot of muscles. Right. Whenever people say that, you know, well, we need like people. I remember that criticism about Brandon Routh. They're like, well, he's not he's not bulky enough to be split. Superman's not supposed to be bulky.
00:51:23
Speaker
No, he's not. He's not supposed to be the Incredible Hulk. Exactly. His super strength derives from his denser muscular structure and the fact that he's being powered by the yellow rays of the sun. Yeah. That's where his super strength has come from, not because he's bulging with muscle. Exactly. Yeah. So you don't really need some. I've always pictured Superman as someone who's, he's toned. He's not bulky. Right.
00:51:52
Speaker
And that's what Christopher Reeve is. He's toned, and he's got a nice build on him. Yeah. You look at him and say, OK, yeah, he's got nice arms. But also, he's a guy that can put on a regular suit and go out and be Clark Kent and not have to worry about splitting his suit every time he raises his arm. Well, because this is interesting. Two of the actors who really campaigned for this role are Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sylvester Stallone.
00:52:20
Speaker
yeah and you imagine either of them like they they would not have been able to pull off just the look of it because they're too bulky yeah exactly i mean you know forget i mean yeah i mean uh you had just about every actor
00:52:37
Speaker
in Hollywood was Robert Redford. He was campaigning for this. He wanted to do it. I think the Salkins really pushed for him. They really wanted Redford. And Donner was the one who insisted on, no, we need someone who nobody knows because we want people to look at this movie and see Superman. We don't want them to see Robert Redford as Superman.
00:52:59
Speaker
Which, again, I think is one of the things that make this movie work in that, OK, you have an unknown playing super, but you surround him with a bunch of well-known capable actors. Yeah. Who can support him? And that's another reason why I think this movie works so well, because we do have so many capable actors who have been around for a long time surrounding this unknown. Who, to give him his credit, stepped up to the plate and knocked it out of the park? Yeah.
00:53:28
Speaker
He easily holds his own with the more seasoned professionals that are in this movie. It always makes me chuckle every time I watch this movie because the opening credits, it's Marlon Brando, Gene Hackman, and I don't think Christopher Reeve's name even comes up until after the title.
00:53:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. It's Marlon Brando first. Then it's Gene Hackman. Then it's Superman the movie. Then it's Superman. And then Christopher Reeve's name shows up.
00:54:00
Speaker
Yeah, pretty much like with, what was it? Was it Batman where Jack Nicholson? Oh, every one of the, that original series of Batman movies, like from Batman all the way up through Batman and Robin, like the villains always overshadowed whoever was playing Batman. Yeah. You had Jack Nicholson in Batman, you had Danny DeVito in Batman Returns, then Jim Carrey in Batman Forever and Schwarzenegger in Batman and Robin. So yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:54:30
Speaker
but i don't have a that became kind of a hallmark for those movies was that you know you get a big name for the bill
00:54:36
Speaker
Right. Yeah. And I think that that's I think that, yeah, I think that Superman, this movie and Batman, it kind of started that trend where, OK, well, we got to get a big name to play. I mean, you know, the supervillain and yet the rest of the Batman movies just follow suit with that. Like you said, OK, well, we got to get a really big name to play the villain. You know, I mean, it almost like it didn't matter who played Batman as long as you got a big name to play the villain. Exactly. Yeah.
00:55:06
Speaker
But yeah, but go back to it, go back to what you were talking about earlier about the shifting tone of this movie. Yeah, it goes a lot of times between being serious and being funny. And then it goes back to being serious. And then it goes back to being funny. Then it gets serious again, like the scene where Lex Luthor, they hijacked the nuclear missile. That's played strictly for comedy, where Miss Tess marker has to pretend like she's hurt.
00:55:33
Speaker
Yeah, Larry Hagman comes along and he's gonna give a mouth-to-mouth and he tells all of the rest of the soldiers turn it back Yeah That was that that's that's and you know He you know what's the name Otis gets the gets the numbers wrong when he's inputting the coordinates Yeah, let's just a little idea that they'd be able to hijack a nuclear missile so easily Yeah, yeah, I mean
00:55:59
Speaker
The way they do it, it's like, well, shit, I could do that. You know, is it that simple? Is it that easy? But then we go to something else like when Lois Lane gets killed and Lois Lane's death in this movie is really kind of grisly and horrifying because it suffocated and crushed. Yeah.
00:56:22
Speaker
I remember that was one scene that I think that freaked me out when I was a kid watching this movie. Listen, I watched it today and it kind of, I said, oh my God. Yeah, I mean, because she's screaming and she's calling and she, and they keep cutting back to her. You know, they'll cut away and they'll show Superman, well, he's saving the truck and he goes to the dam, but then they cut back to her and she actually takes kind of a long time dying. Yeah, they really draw it out there.
00:56:51
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I mean, yeah, OK. She's dead. But there's no doubt about it. That's oh my god. And then they got to see it was just her hands sticking up out of the car window. And she tried when she tried to climb out and she couldn't make it. So yeah, this movie, the tone of it keeps shifting. In one way, I think that actually works for the movie because it doesn't. OK, because you have way too many superhero movies, I think just
00:57:20
Speaker
take the tone of, well, this is serious and grim and dark, and it has that tone all the way through the running time. Right, right. And after a while, it just gets oppressive. But at least here with Superman, you get your dark moments, but you get your light moments as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. That's a good point.
00:57:43
Speaker
One of the things that I like about this movie is everyone, one of the criticisms about Superman Returns is that you've got a Superman movie and Superman never punches anything. But that's the same thing that happens here. He never punches anyone in this movie either. But you've got that sequence which when after the
00:58:02
Speaker
the missile strikes. And he's going around like he's saving the boss. He's lifting up the freaking plate under the earth. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's a terrific thing. Yeah. Well, he's actually lifting the St. Andrews. It looks like he's in hell. He looks like he's in hell. Yeah. And he's, you know, got the weight of the world on his shoulders that he's, Oh, that's a terrific thing.
00:58:22
Speaker
Right, and it's not as impressive as stuff you see now, but that right there is what Superman's all about. It's not about punching some supervillain, it's about saving people. That's what's the most important aspect of the character.
00:58:36
Speaker
You know what I always say to people when they say, oh, okay, they say, well, Superman doesn't punch anybody. I said, you know what makes Superman really unique among all of the superheroes? And they'll tell me what. I said, Superman is the only superhero that flies around the world looking for disaster to prevent. Right. I said, nobody else, because that's what he does.
00:58:55
Speaker
Yeah, punching bad guys, that's something that's on the side that he does if he has to do it. Right. Yeah, but Superman, you know, like he punches out as Clark Kent. He goes home and does he put his feet up and have a beer? No, he changes Superman and he goes flying around the world looking for natural disasters. He goes looking for people to save because that's what Superman does. Yeah.
00:59:17
Speaker
Yeah. Lois Lane has a scene where after, you know, Superman is flown back in time and he's brought it back to life and everything like that. And Jimmy Olsen says, oh, I think he really cares for you. And she says, Superman cares for everybody. Exactly. Bingo. And that and know what? She's absolutely right. That's the thing about Superman. He cares about everybody.
00:59:36
Speaker
Yeah, like, that's the one thing that's always killed me, is people say, you can't write a good Superman story because he can't be hurt. And, like, well, yeah, he can be. Just not physically, because, you know, you hurt you, even if you had someone doomsday, right? Beats the shit out of Superman.
00:59:54
Speaker
That has no real emotional punch to it because Superman doesn't care as much about that. He doesn't care as much about himself. But you hit him with the death of Pa Kent, the death of Lois Lane. That is what hurts him.
01:00:11
Speaker
And that is what, so you put innocence in danger and that's a bigger threat to Superman than all the kryptonite in the world. Exactly. You have the scene that's in this movie with, as a matter of fact, that's how Lex looped the suckers. I'm into that gauntlet. He's got a room with the machine guns and the fire and thing like that. He tells Superman, Oh, well there's this gas that's going to go off and it's going to kill half the people that's in metropolis now. Oh, well he drops everything and he goes flying, you know,
01:00:38
Speaker
because yeah, because see that's how you get Superman and see that is the whole, see people say that they, well, Superman can't be hurt because you know what?
01:00:46
Speaker
You don't look at what his strengths are as a character. You just think about, well, in order for me to have a good Superman story, he's got to punch somebody. No, some of the best Superman stories that I read, like there was that one story where he just talks, I think it's a little girl, she's getting ready to jump off a building and commit suicide, and he just talks to them. That was a scene in All-Star Superman, which is, hands down, the greatest Superman story I've ever read.
01:01:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that Superman, Superman, his thing is helping people, saving people. If anything keeps him up at night, you know, it's not Lex Luthor. Is that OK? Well, there may be a flood that's on the other side of the world that I can't get to because I got to stop this damn bank robbery. Right.
01:01:35
Speaker
See, that's the thing that pisses him off, you know, that that's what he should be doing. He should be over there in Japan or China stopping a flood or a tsunami instead of, you know, no, I see now I got to be here and let's do it. You know, built this damn robot and I got beat up on this robot. Yeah. Yeah. And all the best Superman stories have done that, have taken that approach.
01:01:58
Speaker
was a Joe Casey did a run on Adventures of Superman back in the early 2000s I think and in between like the crossovers and all that he mostly did like these one issue stories where Superman didn't fight anybody you know it was just him going around helping people yeah and that those those stories were amazing I mean I wish they were collected somewhere because I want to reread those because I had to give up had to sell off my comic collection
01:02:31
Speaker
But that must have hurt. Oh, well, you know, it wasn't so bad because it was, my parents were downsizing. I was moving back to Japan and I had all these, I had like, dude, I had like two filing cabinets full of comic books, single issues. And plus like an entire wall of bookcases filled with graphic novels. And, you know, I was looking at them and I'm just like,
01:02:57
Speaker
It'll cost me a fortune to ship these overseas, and I knew I couldn't leave them with my parents because they were downsizing from the house to a condo, so it was... And I'm just like, well, you know what? Everything's digital now anyway, so I've been gradually building up the collection through the Comixology sales now, and it's just so much more convenient.
01:03:19
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know what? Because I because I had like a whole bunch of comic books. I had them in storage and everything like that. And I say, you know what? It's crazy to be and I had them in storage for like years and years and years. And I say, you know what? It's crazy to just pay to have them because I'm not reading them.
01:03:39
Speaker
You know, and I said, OK, well, you know what? I'm just going to keep the comic collections that I actually know that I want to keep. Like I got a complete run of the Marv Wolfman jink colon tumor Dracula. I've got that. So I kept that. I kept my complete run of Howard the Duck.
01:03:57
Speaker
I had that, you know, some other comics and everything like that. But most of them I just sold because I wasn't reading them. And in this digital age, I said, you know what, if I want to read them again, I can just go online and get them. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, it wasn't added. You know, I'd already been away from home for a long time by that point. So it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. Like if you asked me to do that when I was in college, I would have I would have looked at you like you were insane.
01:04:23
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, yeah. Oh, if you will, which is why I put the comics and storage anyway, because I said, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm never getting rid of my convicts. I never get rid of my convicts. And then, you know, one day I woke up and say, you know, something, I haven't read these comics in like 10 years. Why am I holding on to them? Right. Yeah. And, you know, just taking up all this space and everything. And then, yeah, environmental issues anyway. They're, you know, eventually you can't just keep them locked up like that. Eventually they're going to start to degrade anyway. So.
01:04:53
Speaker
Right. Exactly. And it's not like anybody's going to pay me like a fortune for them. Like a lot of them, like I just like gave away like to the hospital. Oh, no hospital. I mean, I got a good chunk of change off of off of some. But mostly what what I did was I was just bundling up an eBay and selling them for like 10 bucks a bundle or something like that. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. You know, that's what I was doing. Like, you know, some of my friends
01:05:18
Speaker
here in Brooklyn who a comic book, you know, they're in, you know, they still collect comics, everything like that. And I would just, I would say, okay, well, we'll hear. And I would just like bring over like a stack of comics, like, you know, like, okay, well, here's 50 comments. Well, just give me $5 for. Right. Yeah.
01:05:37
Speaker
So yeah, it wasn't that big of a deal. Going back to Margot Kidder, though, one of the things that really stands out as, like, out of everything in this movie, like, you know, all the cheesy stuff that, you know, we kind of look at with a little bit of a squint nowadays, but the thing that, for me, really just takes me right out of the movie is her poem, When They're Flying.
01:06:05
Speaker
That just it never works for me. That's the one thing everybody hates, but you know something I don't mind it because I'm a sucker for romance
01:06:16
Speaker
I am. I mean, I like that. I love that cinematography, whether they're flying around the city and everything. But I just think the music is fantastic. The music is fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I mean. I think it would have been so much better if they just had no narration, no voiceover, just the music. And they just played the music. Well, yeah. And you know what? That's valid. I understand that. And I can go with that. And yeah, I do agree. I do think that the move, I do think that scene would have been better if they had just been instrumental.
01:06:46
Speaker
without her, you know, but you know what? It's not a deal breaker for me. It's not because I because I understand what they were trying to do with that. They would write because OK, listen, you can't have Superman Lois Lane have sex, right? Yeah. But you can do the next best thing, which is.
01:07:05
Speaker
have them go on this little flying thing because if you notice another thing about and I keep going back to his performance as Superman Christopher Reeve whenever we see Superman in any other medium before this movie
01:07:19
Speaker
Whenever he flew, like in the TV series, George Reeve would do this thing where like he would run, he would take like four or five steps, and then he would like shove off and jump up into the air, as if going into, as if flight was an effort. Yeah, Christopher Reeve is exactly the opposite. He actually looks like he's having, he actually looks like it's an effort for him to stay on the ground.
01:07:42
Speaker
Well, you look at too, like in Man of Steel, where he like charges up before he shoots off into the sky. Yeah. Where it's just like, Chris Marie is just like very, it's like it's this very casual. It's effortless. Yeah, exactly. It's effortless. And he's got scenes in there where he's got a big grin on his face, like the one thing Superman really enjoys doing is flying. Yeah.
01:08:06
Speaker
So he's sharing that with Lois Lane. And I've always looked at that as kind of like a metaphor for them having an actual, you know, love scene, a sex scene or whatever you want to call it. But that's what the scene to me was a metaphor. You know, that's what it was for. There's something else.
01:08:23
Speaker
No, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. So there's something else about that interview scene and just what you're talking about made me remember it is, you know, Grant Morrison, who wrote All Star Superman, he talks about this encounter that really informed like how he approaches Superman as a writer, where he talks about how him and I think it was his editor, I think it was Dan Carlin or someone, whoever it was, but they were walking to a comic book, a comic convention, and they saw this guy dressed as Superman.
01:08:53
Speaker
And they just walked up to him and they're like, hey, Superman, do you mind if we ask you some questions? And the cosplayer, you know, he said like this guy, you know, he just fully embodied Superman. He's like, he's like the best Superman I've ever seen, you know, even when you compare him to the movies and everything. And he said that...
01:09:10
Speaker
and the guy answered their questions in character as Superman and he said like the way but he said what was really amazing was the way the guy was standing was like he was just kind of like standing he had his he had his he had his leg up and his arm was just kind of like resting on his on his knee and it just looked very casual and very comfortable and very relaxed the whole time and Wilson said like
01:09:31
Speaker
That's how Superman would be. Like, if you can't be physically harmed by anything, why would you be tense all the time? You know, you'd be completely relaxed all the time. And that scene when he's in that interview, like, I didn't realize this until years after I'd read that story. And then I watched the movie again. And I'm watching the scene of the interview where he's sitting there with Lois and he's just, you know, he's, you know, kind of sitting there casually in the chair. He's got his... Yeah, he's kind of slouched. He's got his chin resting on his hand.
01:09:59
Speaker
And he just looks completely calm and comfortable. And he's sitting there in this blue and red spandex, and Lois Lane is starstruck here, and he's just... It's like nothing to him.
01:10:15
Speaker
Yeah. And if you notice her body language, she's sitting like straight up, like she's real tense and nervous and like you said, he's sitting in the chair and he's actually like kind of slouched back, you know, like, you know, Hey, it's chill. Yeah. And I never realized it, but you know, Christopher Reeve did that before anyone else and it, it fits and totally fits.
01:10:36
Speaker
Yeah. And you see that in the flying scene. You mentioned you're talking about the flying scenes and just like how happy he looks. Yeah. And when he flies, he doesn't like jump off of it. You know, he just goes up in the air like it's the most natural. It's like it's the most natural thing in the world to him. Yeah. Well, you know, I can fly. So he just and he goes up and he's gone. Yeah. And that's that's what you need from Superman, because I remember
01:11:03
Speaker
when they brought in Tyler Hoechlin to play him in Supergirl. Oh my god, that guy. Oh, he's so good. But there's this one scene in his first appearance when Kara asks him, is there anything better than this? And he just kind of looks at her and he smiles and he says, if there is, I haven't seen it yet, or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:24
Speaker
That's like, it's not a chore for him to be Superman. It's just who he is. Right. Yeah. You know, it's not this, you know, there's no problem with being Superman. Being Superman is the best thing in the world that there is. But that guy right there, the first time I saw him was Supergirl, I said, now, if they don't have a Superman TV series with this cat, I said, they're crazy. I don't know why they haven't done it yet. It's insane. It's insane. I mean, that guy was.
01:11:53
Speaker
That scene where he runs down the street and he rips open the show, all they needed was the music. Right.
01:11:59
Speaker
All they needed was the John Williams music to be playing when he did that, and it would have been perfect. As a matter of fact, somebody on the internet, I saw somebody did cut that scene. Yeah, yeah. And they did put in the John Williams music. I said, now, see, somebody on that TV show should have had sense enough to say, hey, you know what would be perfect here? The John Williams Superman theme song, which also is still, I say, is the best superhero theme song ever. You're right. I would not disagree with that at all. Like, I've got that as my ringtone.
01:12:30
Speaker
Hey, you wouldn't. I mean, forget about it. That's it. I mean, you hear that? And I said, yeah, OK, Superman. You know, that's it. John Williams nailed it perfectly. Exactly.
01:12:46
Speaker
They use it again in Justice League. When he comes back, they start, I'm like, well, it's about damn time. That was one of the best decisions that Brian Singer made in Superman Returns, is that he told Warner Brothers, look, we're using the original theme song. Listen.
01:13:05
Speaker
If I was a director, and they came to me and said, dirt, OK, we want you to do a new Superman movie. The first thing I would say is, if we don't have the John Williams music, we're not doing this. Right. Well, we'll give you, I don't care how much money you give me. If we don't have the John Williams music, I'm not doing this movie, plain and simple. Yeah. That theme is just, it's so perfect. Yeah. I could only watch the opening credits and never watch any other part of this movie again. And I'd still be completely satisfied.
01:13:35
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And I mean, even the credits with that, you know, 3D zoom effect. Oh, it's amazing. I mean, come on. Even the credits in this movie are fantastic. I was watching the end credits and I was riveted because they had the music going and everything like that. And I mean, how often does that happen when you can watch the credits and you still say, yeah, you know what? This is this is fantastic. I mean, I can't even remember. I can't even think of any superhero movie where
01:14:05
Speaker
And this isn't even my favorite superhero movie, right? But even still, I cannot think of any movie where the opening credits grab me as much as this one does. Like, it's just got the perfect opening where, you know, you just got that slow beat up at the starry field and then, boom, it's just the first names come up. And then they don't even show the title first. They have the slow zoom on the symbol.
01:14:32
Speaker
Yeah. It's like that whole buildup and it all matches the music perfectly. It's just, I get chills just thinking about it. Oh, man. Oh man, come on, you know. And then they have them flying around saving people and the music is booming and playing. I mean, come on. You know what? Anybody that doesn't like Superman, I have no patience for them. I say, cause you know something, you gotta be really, really a Scrooge type of human being. They're really not enjoyed.
01:15:01
Speaker
this movie because
01:15:03
Speaker
It's a movie that was made by people who obviously love the material and they hope that you will love it as much as, you know, they did. And they do it every time. Like I said, I watched the movie today and I hadn't seen like 10 minutes. I was forget about it. I was just into it just to be. And my whole thing was, well, I'm going to take notes and I'm going to, you know, research this because I'm going to do this. Man, 10 minutes. I lost into it. Yeah. I was in the movie notes wasn't even a consideration by that 10 minutes into the movie. By the time I
01:15:33
Speaker
Listen, yeah. Forget about it. I was done. Didn't take a single note. That's how much I was in the mood. Because like I said, this was the first time I'd watched it in like, you know, like two years from start to finish. I've seen little snips and bits here and there. Right. Like this was like the first time I sat and watched it from start to finish in about two years. And yeah, I was just like, bam, I was into it.
01:15:55
Speaker
I think and I cannot think of it. You know, OK, you know, the only other superhero theme that I could think of this may be as iconic as this one. Which one? The one from the animated Spider-Man cartoon. I love the instrumental version they did of that in the in Homecoming.
01:16:17
Speaker
Oh, I haven't seen, did I see Homecoming? That was the one with Tom Holland. Yeah, the Vulture, yeah. Okay, yeah. When they have the Marvel Studios logo come up, they've got the instrumental Spider-Man animated series theme song playing over it. Yeah, yeah. That's like the only other superhero theme song I could think of that is as iconic as the, you know,
01:16:44
Speaker
I would have said Danny Altman's Batman, but now I think the Avengers theme has overtaken it. Yeah. Yeah. The Danny Altman Batman theme is like, eh, I don't know. You know what?
01:16:59
Speaker
OK, I hear it, but I don't get the same rush of excitement that I get when I hear the Superman theme or even the Spider-Man one from the end, or even the Incredible Hulk or the Iron Man animated theme song. You know, those are listening to those. I said, oh, yeah, Tony star, you know, and I'm singing along, popping my finger. Yeah, you know, you know, I think it is because I grew up with the Batman, the animated series and OK.
01:17:26
Speaker
They use the Danny Elpen theme song for the opening credits of every episode. Right. So that became really ingrained to me because of that. Okay. So I think that's why that theme stands out so much to me. But now I think the Avengers theme is probably overtaking it and is now second place to Superman for me.
01:17:50
Speaker
Fair enough. I'm just like, I was thinking, um, well, what the time when I really realized it was in infinity war. And when vision and scarlet, which are being attacked by the black order and then and captain America arrives and then the team starts building up at that point, that's when I realized I'm like, okay, this theme is something special now. Yeah. Yeah. That they use it to great effect in that scene. That was a scene.
01:18:18
Speaker
You couldn't hear anything for five minutes in the theater after the Captain America shows up. Everybody was like, oh, shit. OK, shit just got real.
01:18:27
Speaker
You know, a friend of mine, he was, he posted on Facebook. He said that, um, he watched the movie with his daughter. And when that, when Cap came on screen, he leaned over to his daughter and he's like, who is that? And she's like, that's Captain America. What's wrong with you? Yeah. He didn't recognize him with the beard. Oh
Exploring Superman's Humanity
01:18:41
Speaker
no. Yeah. No, my wife said the same thing. She said, well, who's that? Why is everybody going to cry? I said, that's Captain America. Okay. Cool. Normies, man. What are you going to do? Yeah. Yeah.
01:18:56
Speaker
uh... the mondanes uh... but you know what my favorite part of this movie i think hands down has to be his first night in cinematrop was a Superman
01:19:04
Speaker
oh yeah absolutely that whole sequence it's just constructed beautifully like right from the start when he sees lois dangling over the edge like that and you start to hear there's the slow build of the theme and they even do the little nod back to the phone booth thing because there were no phone booths in new york city by this point right right so they did that little nod he sees the phone there he like looks up and down and he runs away from it
01:19:28
Speaker
Yeah, he runs over to it, and he looks in it, and he just looks it up and down and says, OK, well, this ain't going to work. Then he just runs to it, which was cute. It was a nice little nod. Yeah. Yeah, that whole. They had tried to do it. They tried to do the phone booth thing, but then they're like, we can't find a damn phone booth in New York City anymore. No, no, no. At that time, as a matter of fact, there were still phone booths in New York, but they were very hard to find. Yeah. You know.
01:19:57
Speaker
As a matter of fact, phone booth still up until like to the night through the 1980s. There was no phone booth. And I believe that there was a movie Joel Schumacher directed. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
01:20:12
Speaker
That was they actually used the very last phone booth that was left in Manhattan. Yeah to film. Yeah, that was a good movie. And that was like what, like the 1990s they made that movie? No, no, that was in that was in the 2000s. I was like, yeah. Yeah. But that was when Colin Farrell was like at his peak. OK. Yeah. But that was like that was that was not a prop. That was the actual
01:20:39
Speaker
phone booth. It was the very last phone booth that was left in Manhattan. Yeah. I think after that movie was filled, filmed is when they took it out. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good, that was a good movie. But yeah, that whole Superman's first night. I mean, listen, he even says a cat is stuck up in the tree. I mean, come on. How could you not love that? And then after that, when he goes back to the fortress and he's talking to Jor-El,
01:21:04
Speaker
And he tells him, he's like, you can't imagine how good it felt, right? And that's, like everyone who says, like, well, Superman, the Boy Scout, someone who saves people for no reason like that, that doesn't make sense. That right there is why it works. Like, it feels good for him to help people.
01:21:27
Speaker
See, my whole thing is, you know, which is why I love so much the way Captain America has been portrayed in the MCU, because in a lot of ways, he's like Superman. And a lot of people say, oh, and you know what? We become so cynical and so jaded and everything like that. We said, well, we can't relate to characters like that anymore. Well, yes, you can. You can always relate to a character who does the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do. Exactly.
01:21:56
Speaker
You know, there are people like that in the world today. Just because you happen to be a cynical, jaded human being that doesn't believe in anything, doesn't mean that other people don't. And that's what Captain America and that's a Superman. That's what they represent. They represent like, uh, you know me, like one thing that I really get really frustrated with, where people talk about,
01:22:20
Speaker
or Captain America, and they talk about, well, let's stay with Superman, because we're talking about Superman. They say, well, I can't relate to Superman. And I said, well, you're not supposed to.
01:22:30
Speaker
That's what Clark Kent is for. You're supposed to relate to Clark Kent. Superman is what you're supposed to aspire to be. The thing that always got me about that, it always makes me wonder, how can you relate to Batman? Well, he doesn't have any powers. I'm like, yeah, but he's got more money than God. He's a dwarf man. He's borderline psychopathic. How do you relate to that? Yeah, exactly.
01:22:52
Speaker
So I just never understood that whole unitability argument. Yeah, I mean, people drive me crazy when they talk about, oh, well, I relate to Spider-Man. Really? You can climb walls. You were bitten by a radioactive spider.
01:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, well, you know, he's broke all the time and he doesn't get the girl. Oh, so that's what you relate to what you relate to. You relate to being broken, never having a girlfriend. Oh, OK. I see. All right. You know what? That in a lot of ways meant is more relatable than Batman. And because, like, yeah, he's got superpowers, but he's a regular guy who goes to work.
01:23:30
Speaker
He's constantly got to put on a fake face every time he goes out in public. Thank you. He can't tell the woman he loves how he really feels about her. I'm like, what person has never experienced that? And don't all of us really do that to some degree when we go out of our door every day. We go out and we kind of put on this persona that we had that we show to people outside. Absolutely.
01:23:56
Speaker
that we don't show to like our family and friends, you know, like when we go home, like when I go home to my wife, my wife sees the real me. When I go out and I deal with people, they're not necessarily seeing the 100% Derek Ferguson. Exactly. Because there's certain things that I can do and say in front of my wife, I can't do and say in front of other people. Right. Because she gets me. She says, OK, well, I know why you said that. But there's certain things that if I said to other people, they would look at me and go, oh, exactly.
01:24:23
Speaker
Yeah you know so yeah so a lot of us are like Clark Kenton's Superman in that year that when we go outside we have to put on this persona and be this other person than what we really are because there's certain things in society you can't do or say that you would do at home in front of your friends and family.
01:24:43
Speaker
Another thing that kills me about a lot of the complaints about Superman is, and I'm gonna bring it back to Man of Steel. You know, if we ever cover Man of Steel on this show, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna be hammering that movie relentlessly. But one of the things that defenders of that movie always say is that,
01:25:01
Speaker
They bring up, I bring up Superman killing Zod and they say, well, he has to learn his no killing rule. And I'm like, how do you have to learn that killing people is bad? Yeah. I just never understood that logic.
01:25:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's kind of like, see, you know what? You don't have to poke me in the eye with a stick for me to know that that's wrong. Exactly. You know, no, see, that should be. Yeah, you know, you don't have to kill somebody or say, OK, well, you know what? Maybe I shouldn't kill people. No, that's not. I mean, yeah, I've never understood that. Now, give me any other reason for why he kills. Well, he kills her because there was no other way for him to go. You know, tell me that. But
01:25:44
Speaker
The Superman I know, okay, like the Christopher Reeve, he would have found another way. Exactly. Any other Superman that I can think of, yeah, they would have found another way because that's who Superman is. He's always gonna find, he's like Captain America in that respect. He's always gonna find another way.
01:26:03
Speaker
Right. So, I mean, yeah, Man of Steel, well, we should put that on the list, you know, a movie to cover, you know, because, yeah, because I've got my issues with Man of Steel as well, you know. One of the things that I just completely lost my train of thought.
01:26:24
Speaker
Yeah, I would completely forget what I was going to say. But something else I did on a different tack. I wanted to ask you, because you've seen the three hour cut. Yeah. I've never seen that one. The version I have only has the ultimate edition, like the director's cut version and the theatrical cut. It doesn't have the extended one, which I think was only on the Blu-ray. Yeah. I know it's probably been years since you've seen
01:26:53
Speaker
the other versions, but what are some of the, can you think of any major differences? Okay. Okay.
Extended Cuts and Adaptations
01:27:01
Speaker
In the extended cut, there's a subplot that a lot of people might not be aware of where Lois Lane actually goes to interview
01:27:11
Speaker
this Native American chief. And it turns out that a lot of the land that Lex Luthor has bought, because his scheme is to have the nuclear missile go into the San Andreas fault, break off California, and all of the millions of acres of land that he's bought, that'll be the new California, in other words. That'll be new beachfront land that he plans on making millions and millions of dollars on. Well, Lex Luthor bought that from Native Americans.
01:27:39
Speaker
Yeah. There's a there is one scene in the version I saw with that where she's interviewing him in the car and he says, like, you know, for the amount of money they paid me for this worthless land, I hope it's Custer.
01:27:50
Speaker
Right, right, right. And then he goes on to talk about how that the dam was built. And when the dam was built, that kept the water off their land. And that's why their land is now worthless. OK, so that part wasn't in there. So that's something that's different. Yeah. So that's an extended subplot that a lot of people, also it has, which probably is on your version, too, where Superman, where he runs the gauntlet when he goes to Lex Luthor's underground hideout, where he throws
01:28:21
Speaker
The freeze, they put her on the air conditioners and they freeze him. They try burning him and everything. He also fires like, yeah, machine guns, there you go.
01:28:33
Speaker
Yeah, there's a longer scene after Pa Kent dies where Ma Kent, she wakes up and she's walking through the house and she's calling for Clark to wake up and he thinks that he's still in bed, but he's standing way to hell out in that field someplace. And he makes the poor woman walk like, it looks like half a mile to where he's at. And he's just standing there.
01:29:00
Speaker
Huh? And he's just standing there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's just standing there and she comes out there and they have the conversation, everything like that. But it's also a good scene in there. It just shows you how isolated.
01:29:12
Speaker
You know, the kids are from everywhere because, uh, as I remember back in the comic books, I think it was John Byrne had said that there was like a snowstorm that year. At that time, the kids got away with saying, okay, yeah, well, we had a child. I had delivered a child by myself. You know, Paul Kent said, yeah, well, you know, she was pregnant and we was isolated by the snowstorm.
01:29:37
Speaker
I think that's what he said. Yeah. I believe in man of steel when he did the six issue man of steel. Cause he, he, cause he said that always bothered him as to how did the kids just all of a sudden pop up with a child and nobody questioned him and stuff like that. They addressed that in the movie. Uh, if you remember, because when they find him, um, and you know, he's fixing the tire and she says, we could say he's my, he's the son of my cousin from North Dakota.
01:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, right. That's what she said. She said, well, that, you know, we'll do that. He goes along with it. So, yeah, I mean, listen, there's plenty of ways they could explain it away. Yeah. You know, you know, there were some things like this. OK, I would have just said, listen, me, I would have just said, listen, mind your damn business. Well, because I know the original version, it's like they dropped him off at an orphanage and they went the next day to adopt him, which today you could not do that.
01:30:33
Speaker
Right. Yeah, exactly. You can't just show up to an orphanage and in that same afternoon walk out with a kid. Exactly, yeah. So yeah, they do need to find new ways to explain that away. In fact, Smallville was done with that. They had, because the Luther's were also involved in the meter shower that brought Clark to Earth and they helped each other out and Lionel helped them sort out the adoption stuff.
01:31:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm, but most of the scenes that are in the three-hour version basically, they're mostly like extended versions of see like, uh Remember the scene where? Clark and Lois The guy mugs them and catches the bullet Okay. Now after that, that's where we introduced the Otis because when talk because when Clark and Lois they walk out of the alley and they walk out and they catch cab and Otis walks right by them and
01:31:27
Speaker
Oh, I see. Yeah, and he crosses the street and then we're introduced to the two police officers. Right. They have a little conversation, you know, they're talking and stuff like that. So there's a little bit more. Most of the scenes that we get in the three hour version are basically just extended versions of scenes that we've already seen. But for some reason, they were chopped off because I guess they felt that they didn't go with the flow to start. Like there's a little bit more.
01:31:54
Speaker
with the Kryptonian Council. You know, Jor-El has a little bit more dialogue with them, which I appreciate because there's two wonderful actors in that scene, Trevor Howard and Harry Andrews, two wonderful British actors. In fact, Trevor Howard, I was just reading about this. He hated the fact that he was going to have to film with Brando. Really? Yeah, apparently they had like some feud or something, let's see. No fooling.
01:32:23
Speaker
I would never would have guessed. Yeah, so when they were filming Mutiny on the Bounty, they had a very bad relationship. Oh, yeah, that's right. They were mutiny. OK, yeah. Yeah, they were mutiny. Here's what it says. He played Captain Blood. Yeah, so it says that it's been alleged that Trevor Howard did not want to act in the film because he loathed Marlon Brando. Oh, OK. And he only accepted the role when he learned that he would be acting with Harry Andrews. Oh, OK. So I guess in that scene, like, they're not really together.
01:32:54
Speaker
Mm-hmm. No, no, no, they know they are because there is a definite scene where they're standing there and they're close enough to each other that they're in the same shot. OK. OK. So maybe it was just the fact that Harry Harry Andrews was there, too. He was able to mitigate it.
01:33:11
Speaker
Well, maybe, yeah, but you know something, a lot of times these actors, you know, like for instance, one thing that always impressed me about the cast of Star Trek, the original cast, is that apparently they all hated William Shatner's guts. Yeah.
01:33:27
Speaker
with the exception of with the exception of Nimoy. Yeah. Nimoy got along with Shatner. Yeah. Yeah. But everybody else like what's his name? James Doohan. James Doohan would not speak to Shatner unless they were actually working on that. That was that was only time he never had. But if you look at the TV show and especially the movies, you would never get that. Right.
01:33:49
Speaker
You would honestly believe that these people have been friends and co-workers for most of their adult lives because, you know, they're risking their lives for each other. You would never get that. None of them hated, you know, that's what I got, that they absolutely hated William Shatner. But you would never get that from them. So I guess Trevor Howard was professional enough to say, well, you know what? Listen, I only got to do a couple of scenes with this guy and then I take my check and I'm out of here. So, yeah.
01:34:20
Speaker
But yeah, but yeah, but in extended version, we just get like certain scenes that are played out longer than, you know, where if you had seen like the theatrical version, you would say, OK, well, this is the same scene. It's just like another four or five minutes that's added on to it. And that's pretty much how it plays out for the whole thing. Like they like the whole earthquake scene. There's more.
01:34:49
Speaker
that
01:35:03
Speaker
in
01:35:22
Speaker
I think it's three. I think there's the original theatrical cut, which is only like an hour and a half or something like that. There's the ultimate edition, which they first released on DVD back when it first came out on DVD, like in 2000 or something like that. And then there's the extended one for TV.
01:35:39
Speaker
OK, well, I have that the extended TV version. That's the three hour one. That's one hundred and eighty eight minutes. And then I have the on the as part of the same packages on a separate desk. It's the special edition, which I understand. That's Richard Donner's cut. That's the one that he prefers. Exactly. Yeah.
01:36:01
Speaker
And that's the one with the commentary and everything like that. Now on that one, it's got a bunch of deleted scenes. But the deleted scenes are the ones that are in the three-hour version. It's not like a separate menu that you go to and see the deleted scenes. If you watch the three-hour version, those deleted scenes have been put back in the movie. Right. OK. Yeah.
01:36:25
Speaker
OK, so it's just basically like little extensions, nothing really major. No, no, no, no, no, there's nothing. So anybody listening to this, you don't feel you got to run out. You've got to be extended. No, you don't. I mean, it's just basically just extended version. I mean, if you're a Superman groupie like me and you just want the whole three hour package, which I do recommend, mind you, that if you do love Superman and you want to get the whole Superman the movie experience. Yeah, I do recommend.
01:36:55
Speaker
that you get the three-hour version, you know, because that's like, really, that's like the whole epic story, complete in one package. As a matter of fact, if you watch that, you don't even have to watch any other of the, you don't have to watch Superman 2 or 3 or 4, The Quest for Crap or, you know, any of those other ones. I don't have any of those movies. All I have is just Superman the movie and that's it. I'm happy with that. That's it. I've got the Superman the movie and I've got the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2.
01:37:26
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. As far as me, as far as I'm concerned, the series stops after the Donner cut. Okay. Yeah. I don't, I don't really care much for the theatrical Superman two with the Lester version. No, no, I don't. You know, even when I saw it, I didn't, uh, I didn't care for it when I saw it in the movie theater. I said, eh, it's okay. But you know, you know what?
01:37:52
Speaker
To me, the Lester version didn't have that spark. It seemed to me that Lester was making it, but he didn't have much respect for the material. Exactly. He put a lot of slapsticky stuff in it, which really came out, because he directed Superman III all by himself. And the slapstick stuff really came out in that. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what we're fighting for. The less said about that movie, the better. But that's something we could add to the list, too, is the comparison of the Richard Donner and the Lester cuts of Superman II.
01:38:23
Speaker
OK, well, you know what? I haven't seen the daughter cut. Let me get that one and let me watch it and then we'll, you know, we got a ways to go because we think we got some other stuff we want to cover first. But that's what we'll consider later on down the line. But like, yeah, but like I said, as far as I'm concerned, you know, yeah, I just had that movie, Superman movie, and that's it. I'm happy with that. Yeah. Yeah. So you have any final thoughts about this film? Oh,
01:38:53
Speaker
Just to amplify what I said earlier, this movie is like
01:38:58
Speaker
OK, this is like the Citizen Kane of superhero movies. Like how everybody said that Citizen Kane transform movies forever. Well, Superman, the movie for me transforms superhero movies forever. Never again after that would we look at superhero movies the same way again or would they be made the same way again? Right. And when they tried and when people tried to go back to the earlier format of like the Batman 66, you know,
01:39:28
Speaker
They got they got torn apart for it like you look yeah, I'm in and Robin Right.
Superman's Legacy in Film
01:39:33
Speaker
Yeah, because it's like, you know, it's like when Moses sort of burning bush He was never the same again right and what we had seen Superman the movie and once we saw what superhero movies could be when they were treated as movies, right and
01:39:47
Speaker
with story and heart and character and attention paid to, you know, special effects. And, you know, once we saw that, we turned the corner and we said, OK, well, we're all in. And that was it. I mean, from then on, you know, superhero. I mean, really, superhero movies were never the same again after Superman. Say whatever you want about it. If you don't like it, folks.
01:40:11
Speaker
I respect that. I understand that. But it cannot be denied that this was the turning point as far as superhero movie gone. And this is it. But the crazy thing about that, though, was it took like 30 years for Hollywood to really realize that. This is true. Because it wasn't because you had Superman, the movie, and then like 10 years later, you had Batman. And then after that, you know, you kind of had this downward spiral you had. But it wasn't really until
01:40:42
Speaker
Probably Iron Man that they really embraced this style, like they embraced the superhero concept. You had other movies that were good, you had the X-Men movies, you had Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies, but none of them really embraced the idea of, hey, being a superhero is actually kinda cool, until Iron Man.
01:41:03
Speaker
True. True. Now, a lot of people, because I've had this argument with a lot of people, a lot of people say, oh, well, what about Blade? Blade changed superhero movies. I said, no, not really. I said, because you have to understand something. Blade was not marketed as a superhero movie. No, it wasn't. It was marketed as a Wesley Snipes action movie. In fact, you watch that movie again, you will not see Marvel listed anywhere in the credits. None. When they bring up the creator credits, it says it's credited to Marv Wolfman and Gene Holland. Nothing about Marvel Comics.
01:41:33
Speaker
Yeah, because it was packaged strictly as a vehicle for Wesley Snipes as an action horror movie. It wasn't until
01:41:46
Speaker
We go all the way to Iron Man, and then when we get to Iron Man, and we'll get to that somewhere down the line, folks. But yeah, that's another touchstone that changed the game as far as superhero movies are concerned. I don't think, you know, we had X-Men before that, but X-Men was kind of... Well, the thing about X-Men... Yeah, X-Men didn't really embrace the superhero concept of it. It was more just...
01:42:10
Speaker
it it they focus more on like the they didn't even have the costumes or anything like that which i can understand the reasons why they made that decision but they didn't really play up the superhero aspects of it spider-many spider-man you know sam ramey spider-man movies to a greater extent did but it was still the whole it's the spider-man thing where you know he's a superhero but he doesn't really like being a superhero type of thing so
01:42:33
Speaker
But the idea of I'm a superhero and I love and I love it That is something we saw in Superman and we didn't really see again until Iron Man. Yeah I mean like the X-Men we really need to do a whole series just on the X-Men because X-Men Incapacities so many other things and because they were set off in their own of the universe right separate from the rest of the Marvel universe That's a little
01:43:00
Speaker
That's a little bit different from your regular conventional superhero movie. I think that, you know, just like they put off in their own universe. Yeah. But yeah, like you said, we didn't get the superhero enjoying being a superhero again until we get Iron Man. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
01:43:19
Speaker
And for my money, like I said, you've got Burns Man of Steel, you've got Mark Waid's Birthright, but you've got the Zack Snyder's Man of Steel, but in all those origin stories, like this one still, I think this is the definitive Superman origin story. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, like I said, if anybody was to, I know I was on Facebook earlier today and
01:43:46
Speaker
Somebody I think was Stacey Dukes. He had mentioned he said well for him the definitive Superman origin story was the three-part Last son of Krypton from the animated series
01:44:01
Speaker
I've got issues with the influence it takes from John Burns' series. I've got a lot of issues with John Burns. The one exception is he didn't do the Superboy thing, and he reimagined Lex Luthor, which was actually more of Marv Wolfman's doing than anything else. Right. Well, even John Byrne himself says that most of his influence from Man of Steel came from this movie. Yeah.
01:44:26
Speaker
Yeah, you know, this was it. I mean, I basically think that when I wrote fan fiction a million years ago and I wrote Superman briefly for JLA you 2001, I based it on this Superman. This is Superman that I based my Superman on. Right. Right. You know, I mean, I, you know, I don't think that the influence of this movie can be underestimated.
01:44:49
Speaker
Right. You know, as far as movies go and comic books, you know, this movie has profound effect. One of the things that happens, the comics all do now, too, is that the shield is his Kryptonian sigil, right? It's his Kryptonian name. Right. Yeah. That was Brando's idea. Really? Yes. Brando came up with the idea of them using the S shield as like the symbol.
01:45:17
Speaker
yet but it's actually not a s that that that's something that came from uh... i think it was uh... i think it was mark way to establish that what's not really an ask is at that it did it's actually a kryptonian sigil for hope
01:45:31
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's actually some kind of Kryptonian symbol. You know, it's the House of El. It's the family symbol. Yeah. But it just happens to resemble it. But actually, the single is the yellow parts. Right. And the way that it breaks up the red parts, that's what makes it look like an S. Yeah, exactly.
01:45:50
Speaker
Yeah, which is a damn clever idea, really, when you think about it. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a good idea. And it really makes the ass like it. It adds a whole new level of importance to it because it's it's not just an ass he wears on his chest. It's he's carrying his Kryptonian heritage with him. Yeah. That's his family crest that he carries with him. And, you know, he displays to the world. Yeah, exactly. It's a nice little touch. I like me. Yes. Like I said, the influence of this movie
01:46:19
Speaker
as far as I'm concerned, cannot be underestimated. Well, I mean, you know, every time they do the fortress of solitude in the comics now, if in other TV shows like when they do it on Supergirl, when they did it in Smallville, it's always the crystalline structure. Yeah.
01:46:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's always a crystal technology to me, which also was another brilliant idea because it gave it such a unique look. Right. You know, it wasn't just, oh, well, you know, the machinery that we're used to and everything like that, the crystalline structure gives it a whole otherworldly look and everything like that and gives you the impression, well, this is a technology so far beyond our level. It's like magic. But at the same time, it doesn't feel too alien.
01:47:01
Speaker
no it's like it did it somehow it strikes that perfect balance
01:47:05
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Which is which is what so much of this movie does for me in so many ways, it just strikes the perfect balance. Even like you say, when we were talking earlier and we were talking about, OK, well, the mood goes from serious to comedy from this to that. Well, you know what? In life, a lot of times we'll be in the middle of a deadly serious situation. And yet we're laughing at it. We find some uterus and everything like that. So, you know,
01:47:34
Speaker
Everything about this movie, to me, yes, okay, I'm going to give you all the poem, you know, Margo Kidder, Yuck, and everything like that, but hey. That's the only, like, if you had me to, if you had me recut this movie, that's the only thing I would change. I would just mute her dialogue during that scene and just have the voice, the music. But other than that, like, even the stuff I've criticized, it all still kind of works together.
01:48:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is what this is. One of the few movies that I still feel from that era that even when you put it up against the superhero movies that we have today with all of the technology and everything like that, I still feel this holds up very well. It does. It does. Yeah. The effect is polished, but it still works really well, which is the only thing I'll go along with you with that.
01:48:26
Speaker
I would take out the voiceover, okay, the Margot Kidder, and I would probably
01:48:32
Speaker
take the opportunity to do a little tweaking of the special effects. Yeah. Not much, not enough to spoil the charm of the original intent. But yeah, there are a couple of the flying scenes that are like a little bit shaky. Yeah, it looks a little too obvious that they're flying in front of a projector screen. Right. I would I would probably take the opportunity to fix that. But otherwise, I wouldn't mess around with this movie too much because
01:48:59
Speaker
A lot of the charm is when it was made and how it was made, right? You know, could you look at it and you say, wow, well, how did they do that? And how did they do this and how did they do it? And it's a lot of stuff that they did that was practical effects, like a lot of the scenes, like the scene where Christopher Reeve, where he delivers Lex Luthor and Otis at the end of the movie, he brings them to the prison.
01:49:22
Speaker
and then he flies out they actually had a crane that they lifted him up out with and they did um there was some like special photography i was reading about a while back where when they when he's taking off like they they did some sort of like cross zoom or something where the the the background kind of zooms out while he kind of zooms in so it kind of gives the illusion like he's actually flying up as opposed to just being in front of the screen
01:49:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, there was a lot. I mean, of course, now they just go into a computer and they do all that stuff, a lot of that stuff. They had to figure out how to do. Exactly. You know, because because the whole tagline of the movie that they base or you believe a man can fly, which I think is what I'm going to call this episode. OK.
01:50:06
Speaker
I think that's more appropriate. And it's true. Like you watch that movie and you believe he's Superman. Oh, yeah. One hundred percent. Like I said, this movie, I cannot state it enough that, yeah, that this guy, Christopher Reeve, his legacy is that, yeah, he convinced us that there was a Superman. Right. And he and he was Superman. He was. Absolutely. And in his in his real life, too, like after his accident and everything, like he did so much humanitarian work. Right.
01:50:36
Speaker
Just an amazing amazing human being yeah, yeah, I mean He suffered a trauma that a lot of us And listen, I'm not gonna lie that would have broken me. Oh, yeah He just kept on it just made him stronger and he kept on doing whatever he could you know to and I think that and he even said it himself he said that by playing Superman he thinks that he
01:51:02
Speaker
He integrated a lot of the values of Superman into his own life as a human being, you know, just by playing that guy, you know, and which I think was a marvelous thing, which is, which is, like I said, people talk about they can relate to Superman. Well, Superman, you know, there's a lot of what Superman is that we should aspire to be. Well, this is the thing that always gets me when
01:51:26
Speaker
You know, I go on forums and stuff and I see people bitching about superhero movies and I'm just like, like superhero movies, that that's our modern mythology. They and, you know, I mean, I'm not afraid to say that I got my values from Superman. Oh, yeah. Oh, listen, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things in my life that I believe in and a lot of things that I try to demonstrate
01:51:56
Speaker
on a day-to-day basis, just dealing with people just going through life. And a lot of that, and Noah, like you, I'm not ashamed to admit it, I got it from superheroes. Exactly, yeah. And you don't have to go out, you don't have to run into a burning building, you don't have to rescue a cat from a tree, just by being a decent person. Right.
01:52:19
Speaker
You can be a superhero just by being a decent person. You see somebody that's in the street, you know, that needs... Just give them directions. Exactly. Hey, are you lost? Oh, okay. Well, you know, you go down to the corner and make a right. Well, you know, somebody needs, you know, just a sandwich. You see somebody that's in the street that looks like they're down and out buying a sandwich and give it to them. Right.
01:52:43
Speaker
Alright. I think pretty much said everything we need to say about this movie. We've been running around for almost two hours. That's how it happens when you and I get together. Yes, this is true. We just go on and on and on. Listen. Listen. I'll be honest with you. Talking about Superman the movie, I could easily go on for another two hours. Oh, I mean, me too. I probably could, yeah.
01:53:06
Speaker
And we'll be able to talk about other Superman movies in the future, so we'll be able to run our mouths off a lot more about this. Because you and me, like, I'm pretty sure you and me are agreeing, like, Superman's our favorite character. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, my top five superheroes is Superman, Thor, the Black Panther, the Hulk, and who else? Well, that's four. Who else? Batman? No, not Batman.
01:53:38
Speaker
But yeah, Superman, he's in my top five. Yeah, he's definitely, I think I'd probably put him as number one with a bullet for me. Yeah. But so one of the things we were planning on doing with this show is alternating our picks for what movie we're going to talk about. So I did Superman the movie for this one, and that means it's your turn to pick the movie for the next episode.
Next Episode Preview and Podcast Support
01:54:01
Speaker
And okay, so we did Superman, this one, which is only right and fair that the first episode we do Superman. And I thought that for the second one, well, if you're gonna do Superman, who are you gonna do next? Well, obviously Batman. So the next time the two folks listen to us, Perry and I will be discussing the 1989, directed by Tim Burton, starring Michael Keaton and Jack Nicholson and Ken Basinger.
01:54:30
Speaker
Batman. Sounds good to me. But with the time we're recording this, I haven't actually set up the website yet, but by the time I get the episode edited and everything, we'll have some post-credit reel where you'll find the episode. But is there anything you want to promote in the meantime, Derek?
01:54:50
Speaker
Absolutely. I always want to promote stuff, you know that. Folks, if you like movie reviews, you can find the Ferguson Theater. Just Google it in, because I don't know the URL. I'm not going to bother looking it up. Once you get the website set up, we'll have a link to it out there. Yeah, once you get the website, yeah. So you can go to that one. I've got about like 400 movie reviews. I've written that up there now. Go check them out. I also have Ferguson, Inc.
01:55:18
Speaker
That's spelled I N K, which is my website where you can go to find out all my other stuff that I'm doing. I have interviews with other writers on there, including one with my esteemed co-host.
01:55:31
Speaker
You can find, I also have a Patreon page. Perry will have a link up for that too, where I have exclusive content. I have three serials that are currently running. And if you like listening to me talk, you probably like what I write as well. So you can go check that out. I also, if you wanna hang out with me and Perry online,
01:55:56
Speaker
He's on Facebook, I'm on Facebook, and I also have a Facebook group called Usimi Dero, where a lot of my good friends who are writers and other creative folk, we all just hang out and have a good time and get together.
01:56:11
Speaker
And for me, I got a bunch of books out. You can find them all on my website. I think it's like up to 30 now. You can find them all through my website, PercivalConstantine.com. I've also got another podcast I host on my own, which Derek has been the one and today only guest on.
01:56:31
Speaker
And that's Japan on Film, where I talk about Japanese movies, because in my day job, I teach a class about Japanese cinema. So I had too many movies to cover, so I started doing a podcast to kind of make up for all the stuff I wanted to talk about, so you can find that at japanonfilm.com.
01:56:49
Speaker
All right, I think that's all we have to do for now. And Derek, a pleasure is always my friend, and I'm looking forward to it. Absolutely. Thank you so much for this opportunity. I had a good time, as I always do, talking movies, and especially talking movies with you. Me too. Hopefully, we can keep this going for a while.
01:57:10
Speaker
And anything else, you know, find us online and looking forward to the next episode. We'll be talking about and by and by all means, if you enjoyed this, please let us know and.
01:57:24
Speaker
Let us know what superhero movies you'd like to hear us talk about. Absolutely. Please drop us a recommendation. We'll have contact info in the credit reel once I get that recorded separately so you'll be able to hear where you can get in touch with us, where you can drop us a line. Let us know what you think. Drop us a review on iTunes because that'll help us get some more exposure for the show. Absolutely.
01:57:48
Speaker
Yep, that does it for Superhero Cinephiles for this episode. And once more, my name's Perry Constantine. And I'm Derek Ferguson. Thank you. God bless and good night. Good night.
01:58:05
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. If you have any questions or comments about this or any other episode, or if you have a superhero movie or TV show you'd like us to cover in a future episode, you can email us at superherocinephiles at gmail.com. Or you can also visit us on the web at superherocinephiles.com. If you like what you hear, leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Each review helps us reach more potential listeners.
01:58:32
Speaker
You can also support the show by renting or purchasing the movies discussed, or by picking up our books, all of which can be accessed through the website, as well as find links to our social media presences. The theme music for this show is a shortened version of Superhero Showdown, a royalty free piece of music, courtesy of Pheasantlionstudios.com.