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Voice of the Mountains: What We Search For with guest Vince Anderson
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Steve welcomes long time climbing partner, extremely accomplished mountain athlete, IFMGA guide, Piolet d‘Or winner, owner of Skyward mountaineering, dad, and husband, Vince Anderson, to the podcast. They discuss their groundbreaking ascent of the Rupal face on Nanga Parbat in 2005 and work to find meaning and understanding of the origin of thoughts, feelings, and motivations in the mountains. They connect those findings back to established schools of thought and the experience they had on Nanga Parbat. With the framework of the climbs, Steve and Vince try to unpack the meaning of suffering and the undying belief in the meaning and importance of their actions. On the 19th anniversary of their landmark climb, these two legends of the sport share their wisdom and learnings from years of hard earned experience.
Check out more information on this episode at: https://uphillathlete.com/voiceofthemountains/
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Transcript
The Essence of Leadership
00:00:03
Speaker
To lead is to think about what is ahead. To imagine the mountain yet unclimbed as it exists in the future, any future, could be a future of storm clouds or avalanches, as well as a more gentle future with blue-black skies and a still, beautiful sky filled with only the yellowing teeth of the mountains surrounding you.
00:00:23
Speaker
In 2006, a year after Vince Anderson and I climbed Angaparbat together, we were permitted to climb Konyangcheesh East, the highest unclimbed summit in the world at over 7,800 meters.
Confronting Fear and Taking Action
00:00:36
Speaker
The first part of such a climb is a long, surreal moment as you kind of untether from the known world. And I remember that day, thick cotton candy clouds swirled around in the massive wall of rock and ice thousands of feet above us.
00:00:52
Speaker
And those clouds kind of focused my thoughts on a future retreat in an as-yet unbroken storm that may or may not someday come. I was scanning the way ahead for protection and hideouts, the way a fugitive scans for an escape. And I was thinking, to lead is to see, and see with clarity, and nothing clouds clarity quite like fear.
00:01:17
Speaker
As I climbed ahead, it dawned on me that the one of us between Vince and I that was the least afraid at any given moment is the one that became the leader. Simply put, a leader is the person that can just be. Be among the swirling clouds and the deafening silence, or be among the raking wind and the artillery whir of the rockfall. Just be.
00:01:37
Speaker
I saw a rib of ice, and I started climbing over to it. Vince climbed ahead now, scanning up, swinging an axe, scanning down, stepping up, in the moment, just simply being he was leading now, quiet and aware. Swirling mist lifted from the valley floor and hit him, and I kind of gasped. I felt suddenly alone.
00:01:59
Speaker
And when you climb an icy mountain wall like this, you stop thinking about your fear. You just think about the next step, the next grip, the next action. Climbing is where you discover that the doing, the action, is where you find the power through the fear. Action melts the fear.
The Role of Partnership in Leadership
00:02:14
Speaker
Action becomes agency, and agency is power. A gust of wind came up and the cloud blew higher, and there he was again, climbing steadily, slowly, carefully, consistently.
00:02:25
Speaker
And I saw the layers for the first time that day. Fear, action, agency, power. And I realized that the core of fear is power.
00:02:38
Speaker
I finished inspecting the ice, and it looked great for a rappel anchor to be needed on the way down, and I started following in Vince's steps. And I thought to myself, there's another layer to fear. It's partnership. It's fear, action, agency, power, and partnership. Partnership is someone who can take over the leadership, take over the stillness, and be the sentry guard for the future.
Philosophy and Humanity of Mountain Sports
00:03:04
Speaker
I looked up and followed Vince.
00:03:10
Speaker
From uphill athlete, I am founder and CEO, Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains, where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. This is where we will ask ourselves who we are, what we learn, and who we want to become as a result of these adventures. This is Voice of the Mountains.
00:03:31
Speaker
It is with a lot of excitement that I bring to you today one of my favorite human beings on the planet. Vince Anderson lives in Colorado with his amazing wife and his three boys who are all four amazing athletes on their own.
00:03:47
Speaker
Vince was raised by his mother in Colorado. Shout out to Marlene. She's an amazing woman. He grew up on Colorado's Front Range in Golden, on Arvada, and then moved to Boulder where he earned a civil engineering degree at the University of Colorado, Boulder.
Vince Anderson's Journey and Achievements
00:04:05
Speaker
It was there at CU Boulder where his quest to ski, more steep and technical lines, led him to climbing. He took the old school route through trad climbing in Eldorado Canyon and Rocky Mountain National Park, and trying to climb and ski as much as he could eventually led him to guiding in Alaska Vince became the youngest American to certify as a mountain guide in the fall of 1998, which I'm guessing made him like the fifth or sixth IFMGA-certified mountain guide to go through the American system. And why- Like 007. You're 007? All right, 007.
00:04:44
Speaker
While the the climbs that Vince and I did together are well known, there's a lot to Vince that people don't know so well. And a few of the highlights are that he climbed and skied off Shishapangma.
00:04:56
Speaker
which is the 14th highest mountain in the world, just over 8,000 meters back in the 90s. He competed well at the ice climbing World Cups. He founded a really wonderful boutique climbing guide service and called Skyward Mountaineering in Urey, Colorado, way back in 1996. And to this day,
00:05:18
Speaker
to my belief, the only guide company in Colorado to remain under the same ownership as it was founded. He was part of the first team from North America to win the PLA to OR, so-called Oscars of Climbing. Of course, that was the two of us.
00:05:34
Speaker
And we personally not only climbed the Rupaul phase, which is certainly the climb we're both known for, but we also did a lot of other climbs together. We had a winter ascent of the Walker Spur on the Grand Giraffe with our friend, Marco Brazel. We had an incredible adventure establishing a new route on the north face of Mount Alberta, which has turned into kind of a modern hard classic and has been repeated a couple of times. We attempted the Emperor phase of Mount Robson.
00:06:03
Speaker
We climbed the first descent of K7 West, a really beautiful 7,000-meter peak in the Karakoram. We did ah new other new routes in the Karakoram. Vince is also incredibly involved in his local climbing community in the western slope of Colorado and has been a really good voice there for sustainable change and an advocate for climbers taking responsibility for themselves and their impacts.
Friendships and Shared Experiences in Climbing
00:06:29
Speaker
He has for a long time now been an instructor and examiner in the American Mountain Guide Association guide training and certification programs, which is important work that has major implications for the safety of our sport. As the guides, he trains are often the ones teaching new climbers safe climbing practices and just policing the the hills.
00:06:52
Speaker
And last but not least, you know, he's an incredible father to his kids. He coaches his youngest kid's freestyle ski team and has done a ton of climbing with his older son who just graduated from high school a few weeks ago and on the way is also a red-pointed 513 and is out climbing desert towers both with his dad and on his own with his friends. Experience that certainly neither of us had at his age.
00:07:19
Speaker
I have been extremely fortunate to have had a number of people in my life who were friends for me, who were safe for me over the years, and who appreciated me for both my attributes and my faults. And Vince stands out in the sense to me as one of the best friends like I've ever had. He's been honest, caring, loving, and most of all, just there for me. He's a rock of a man. Thank you, Vince, for being here today.
00:07:45
Speaker
and Thanks, Steve. It's nice to hear. It's very nice of you. um Pleasure to be talking to you under different circumstances.
Suffering and Meaning in Mountaineering
00:07:54
Speaker
Kind of interesting. Yeah, ah this is a different kind of adventure. It's more of a creative adventure, adventure and ideas.
00:08:04
Speaker
I wanted to just come right out and tell you why I wanted to have you on the Voice of the Mountains and remind listeners of the aim of these podcasts. You know, I've said from the beginning that we're going to tap the, let's say, more experienced, more senior members of the pack to lean on for their perspectives and reflections and But the other particular thing that I'm interested in talking with you about today is suffering. And it's something that you and I have talked about in the past and something I think you're pretty darn good at, probably world-class at, I would say. That's one aspect of the mountain experience that I want to explore with you.
00:08:50
Speaker
okay This is a special episode because while it's not September 1st today, it will drop September 1st, which is exactly 19 years after we began our climb of the Rubal face on Nanga Parbat. I want to connect these sort of thoughts with the experience we had on Nanga Parbat and for today we have kind of ah a muse, a little piece of writing I want to try to, through this touchstone, help us unpack the meaning of suffering because we did suffer. And I'm pretty convinced that no one can suffer that hard and that much without an underlying belief in the meaning and the importance of their actions. And today's muse is, I grip my fears in one gloved hand, an ice axe in the other, and set forth.
Beginning the Nanga Parbat Climb
00:09:41
Speaker
What I search for is not found on a full stomach.
00:09:47
Speaker
So take us back to midnight, September 1st, 2005. We were about to head up the and an attempt on a new route on the central pillar of the RuPaul phase. Yeah, I felt like we were getting ready to take an epic journey, um which which it obviously was for both of us. But it really seemed like we were about to start off on something pretty profound and major. And, you know, with
00:10:19
Speaker
That seemed to sum it up, at least the spirit of that to me. What were you feeling? And getting us fired up. Not like we were going into battle, per se, but it was a pretty risky endeavor, and we had to be of the right mindset to take it on. And for me, at least, that was one way to help cope with some of the other things going on in my mind. Getting some inspirational music, hopefully firing you up too. Get out the best of Steve at 12 a.m. in the morning.
00:10:49
Speaker
Not easy to do? No, not always. You seem to be more of like a 1.30 AM guy, so 12 I found to be a little little before you prime the engines.
00:11:00
Speaker
did What other things were, you said, other feet other thoughts that were going through your mind? What were some of the other thoughts, other feelings? ah Well, it would would we come down? ah that's That's one. um Would we come down? would we Would we come down? Yeah, like, you know, would yeah would we be able to return? yeah Would we survive this? or um Would we succeed or you know would we come down but like with our tails turn and if so, what would that reason be? you know There's like what you think of it could be the good reasons and the bad reasons. and
00:11:35
Speaker
You know, like, why'd you fail? You weren't, like, good enough or, you know, there's there's a variety of reasons. and And so, yeah, I was thinking about that, all that. And and then, yeah, could we do this? You'd gotten quite high the year before, so I had good confidence you had a lot of ah knowledge of what we were getting into wasn't totally unknown. Yeah, that was kind of what's
Identity and Transformation in Climbing
00:12:02
Speaker
going through my mind. And you know, honestly, that whole that that point in time was at least a a week later than we thought the latest we would start. We had waited for a long time with just okay weather. And I remember thinking, ah, you know, we're out here all this way and it's just not gonna happen. And then and I'd go in for this long walk.
00:12:28
Speaker
Maybe a few days before that and just kinda come to terms with myself like we're gonna just try it if it we can get the good weather forecast. but we had The misfire the first night with the weather was good and not was still shedding so then we have this September first night and. ah Morning i guess and. um All that stuff is going in my mind like we've been here so long. So a lot of doubts. Sure plenty plenty of doubts, but I was I was game and willing. and Like, you know, this is going to be pretty amazing experience. So let's let's get it. Let's go. Yeah, obviously. I mean, we both had a ah lot of doubts, I think.
00:13:07
Speaker
You know, it's interesting to hear you talk about it now, and it just brings me back right there to like the moment. And, you know, while you're talking about that, I remember that for you remember how we we had different, those were the things that you were worried about then, and I was worried about different things. I was worried about like just if we were going to get the window. um I was confident that our commoditization was still good enough. um I was more worried about conditions and and weather.
00:13:38
Speaker
and you know And succeeding, failing, those those things, and I think also surviving. Like I think that was the thing that I was the most worried about since I had had an experience the year before where, you know, when I was high and you know the story, but Bruce had turned around turned us around because I was ah getting getting altitude illness, and he didn't think I would survive another night up super high, around 8,000 meters, and sort of forced me to come down, which was the right thing to do. And I owe my life to him for that. But it nevertheless, I felt like I had a ah big burden of of proof on my shoulders to to try to exceed um the previous year's effort.
00:14:25
Speaker
So that was definitely weighing on me. So lots of doubts, lots of doubts, each in our own world. You know, Doug Scott had once said, the famous British alpinists that, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines of, before every great climb, you have to write yourself off. Did you write yourself off before Nanga?
Managing Fear Through Focus
00:14:50
Speaker
I haven't thought about it like that. I mean, it's kind of like,
00:14:55
Speaker
ah Maybe a little bit in order to be somebody you have to be nobody and I was willing to be nobody I'll go up there and just become one with what was there just that Granite and ice and snow and you know and just kind of be with all that Yeah, I had a willingness to I guess but ditch my identity for a little bit and just see what what was going to happen based on my own intuitive process. So some maybe somewhat in that respect. Yeah, so you're you interpret that as, when right, your identity, ah like leave your identity behind to see who's up there, who you are up there.
00:15:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I just wanted to I craved in experience and ah both with you and with the ah immediate environment we were in and that had less to do with who I am and proving something to myself as much as wanting to be immersed in and this type of ah place. and So i guess and and that that I guess that's what that that quote kind of resonates with me about. I don't know if I'm maybe misreading it or something. I think it's but's a prose poem. It means whatever it means to you, right? um Yeah. you
00:16:25
Speaker
you know, I think that I like your interpretation of it being your identity. I think that I thought of it more like, you know, um, I don't know if I ever told you this, but I wrote out a will in my journal when being base camp. It was like, not that I had many positions, but I was like, this is what I want to say to people. And this is,
00:16:49
Speaker
You know, we had a lot of time to think in those weeks waiting for weather, which is sometimes a terrible thing, right? To just have too much time to think. So that was, that was definitely on, my mortality was definitely on my mind, but I think that, you know, it's interesting, you know, this this is this push and pull, what you're alluding to is identity, ego, mortality, immortality, like, you know, do or you you know we're ah we're there to climb the biggest mountain wall in the world, you know, that's in in a sense like there's something certainly
00:17:23
Speaker
you know, kind of alluring about like writing our names into history, so to speak, and at least in our little world of of alpinism. And that was, you know, all these things are are at play, and they all play into our motivation to to do this to do this climb.
00:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. And I've talked to people about this. When you fear when you feel fear, and you're climbing, and you know you're like, oh, I'm whatever, halfway up the root ball phase, or there's a thousand feet of air behind me, or whatever that that fear is, you just focus on the one meter of climbing in front of you.
00:18:03
Speaker
right like and that's what that's what You don't worry about what's behind you or what's around you and the sort of what you are already doing. And I think that that's a place where a lot of people handicap themselves from the get-go as they see the enormity of the task and they don't see the bite they can take or the step they can take as clearly. And you know that's the thing to focus on.
00:18:26
Speaker
but Yeah, let's um I want to move forward in time about a week because I do want to spend some time talking about suffering.
Challenges on Summit Day
00:18:39
Speaker
So if we go forward six days to midnight, September 6th, which was our summit day, we're going to describe, tell me what you remember of that morning. Uh, some weird old school watch alarm going d-d-d-d-d-d and,
00:18:58
Speaker
waki Wakey, I used to, well, you used to tell me wakey, wakey, let go of your snakey. And I think I told you that that morning and you were still kind of, gro I remember you being groggy. It goes wakey, wakey, hands off, snakey. Okay. It was something along those lines that was the rhyming part of it.
00:19:17
Speaker
some ah juvenile phrase to get you laughing in the morning when you're not feeling so great and making the whatever water to I don't know what we ate I think we just made some kind of hot drink and then you know had some other basic things to eat but I do remember getting the still going that's kind of remember and You tended to be more of like a, you weren't just like, it took you a moment to kind of wake up, but then you'd get ready really quickly. But there was this little bit of delay, a little bit more delay with you getting up than normal. um But obviously once you got up, you were were ready to roll and you might've even been first out of the tent for those first few pitches that we had right above the tent that day.
00:20:07
Speaker
So that's most of my memory, you know, and you know how memories are, you know, what I remember is what I think I remember and what you remember, but we probably remember things slightly differently than they actually were. yeah So we can't unfortunately, we don't have a video or anything. Yeah, that's what I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you didn't say anything about the snakey could have been my, my imagination.
00:20:29
Speaker
ah Yeah, I remember the spot, like I can remember the tent, which we we shared a sleeping bag, which I'd sewn up for us, that we both shared it to keep warm from the shared body heat. We had a a small little 2% tent and it was in a pretty narrow spot. The the door opened and there was only ah maybe a short distance between the front of the door and the the the mountain, the rock. And I think that there was some, some maybe we had some, I think we made a rappel anchor from that rock later, which ah almost almost killed me. That's another story. yeah And
00:21:14
Speaker
Yeah, I just remember getting getting out of there and you know feeling i remember I remember just sort of taking stock. like I think what you remember as me like taking a while to get going, I remember sort of me laying there going,
00:21:32
Speaker
OK, like, this is this is kind of it. This is the moment. And how how are you feeling? Are you sick? I mean, this is one of my main concerns was that I would get sick again, because now we're like up around. I don't remember the altitudes of our pivot wax now. It's just all written down somewhere. But we're up over 7,000 meters. I didn't know how it was going to do. And so there was still like a little bit of this doubt. But after sort of a scan, and I was like, no.
00:22:02
Speaker
I'm good, like we're good. Let's go. And you know then we then we we headed out. um And we we started climbing. the the The biggest challenge that I remember that morning was was actually the snow. Do you remember that kuar? Yeah, yep. I thought that was going to stop us.
00:22:23
Speaker
Yeah, describe that. You mean where the snow was really, well, ah what I guess if we're talking about the same area, i'm sure you know we we got done with the rock climbing, and which wasn't so bad, and then some steepish snow ice stuff, and then all of a sudden the snow, as the sun came out, I remember the daylight coming around, it giving away to unconsolidated faceted really sugary snow and it's quite steep and very difficult to climb and you know i'm living in colorado we deal with that kind of snow a lot often dangerous. Besides that it's just really you can't just stick it's not like styrofoam where you can step in it with your crampon get a pick of your ax in there.
00:23:10
Speaker
So it requires a lot of excavation to move and find somewhere where you can get purchase. And I remember doing a lot of that. And the the altitude even before that, the day before that, was pretty stifling. And so the effort involved in gaining very short distance was tremendous. And I i thought, the math doesn't work out here for a time. if If it continues at this rate, we won't proceed far enough. So yeah. i was kind of, uh, thinking it might not, might not pan out because
Perseverance Through Pain
00:23:46
Speaker
of that. And I do recall, you know, I took the lead for a little while trying to break down all that snow. And then you, you know, we took turns and you got in front and somehow got onto a slightly more stable or more solid component of the snow on the one side of the other. I don't know if it was more wind affected or what, but but you got on i got onto some rock. I thought it was okay.
00:24:11
Speaker
Well, I remember you getting out of it and that kind of got us out of that sugar, which was a relief. So that was, that's what I remember about that part of it. Yeah, that took us hours and, you know, it was hot.
00:24:22
Speaker
Yeah, got it was was soon hot, that sign on but it was when that started it was still dark and we were so it was really steep and so the snow was basically like in front of our faces, in front of our chests and we would have to kind of pull it down with our hands and kind of try to pack it down with our knees and try to shovel it behind us, which and almost 8,000 meters is incredibly laborious. And then we had to sort of work up through that to to get to a point where we could. um and And I also, I think, gosh, i wish I don't remember, but it was like two, three, four hours of that where we were just only went only progressed.
00:25:04
Speaker
you know a few meters, a few feet, like it was really, really slow. And I think, you know, I was getting more and more desperate, like, like oh no, oh no, oh no. Because that's the kind of thing that can be the difference, you know, right between.
00:25:19
Speaker
getting to the top or not, and you know nobody nobody you know no there's nothing different in our preparation or who we were. It was just all what the mountain was willing to allow us to do and how to how it would allow us to pass. But that was a moment where I also remember that you were dealing with some some pain from your boots.
00:25:44
Speaker
ah Yeah, I sure was and I still do. um That's interesting you say that you remember that. and I remember it. Well, like it was a big factor. It was very present. Yeah, I've. ah I've got a few things going on with my feet that aren't great, um one one of which is just some, nowadays I have some ah ah arthritis from an injury from 20 years ago, which I dealt with a little bit there, not not not much and at that point because it wasn't that far in, but I also have this
00:26:18
Speaker
I believe to be and I'm probably just too lazy to go get it figured out um is an aroma under the ball of my foot in my metatarsals and it's quite pronounced when I'm wearing stiffer boots. I've since found if I wear.
00:26:36
Speaker
good arch supports, it reduces the discomfort significantly. Of course, I wasn't then. And when I wear crampons on top of that, it, it it for whatever reason, that the the way it produces pressure in the metatarsal, it causes this excruciating nerve pain in between the, and in the middle of the foot. And um and yeah, that was that was really painful.
00:27:01
Speaker
um and has been ah pretty much on every climb I've done over the years in that time period. It's just one of those things I have to contend with. I have contended with until, like I said, I've gotten these arch supports of help, but um at that time I didn't have them. And and that that was one of the things I was dealing with.
00:27:21
Speaker
yeah yeah but That pain was really intense. how were you you know i mean I remember like watching you process it, and it was very sharp. Nerve pain is some of the most intense pain. it was It was with you all the way up there, especially in these last couple days. Yeah. How did you keep going through that?
00:27:46
Speaker
um I guess pragmatically it's kind of like the screaming bar fees you get those things they hurt like i don't know anything that hurts as bad as a screaming bar fees that are not some sort of medical emergency anything else that has that level of pain. Means you you've got an injury you should see a doctor but there's nothing wrong with you we got the screaming bar fees.
00:28:08
Speaker
Screaming parfaits is sometimes called hot aches by the British climbers and it's when to fro when your hand or feet are really cold and the blood finally gets back in and it's it's very painful when the warm blood gets back into cold digits. Just to clarify that for our listeners. Yeah, so that's the phenomenon for the people that know what I'm talking about. They know what I'm talking about. And I'm using that as kind of a example of, I think the foot pain I had, I knew there's nothing really wrong. I'm not bleeding, I don't have a broken bone or something that's going to cause me, it's just different. Like if I had a cut that hurt like that or something more, I don't know, I don't want to call it legitimate. Yeah, I would like, okay, this is a problem, but knowing like, all right, this is just pain, it's just physical pain.
00:29:06
Speaker
And if you can just and in in it some way, it gives me a point of focus. I can just focus on that pain. I can still make a step forward. It wasn't preventing me from doing so. I just did so with discomfort. It allowed some form of distraction from some of the other um things that might have you know been been another point of of of mental focus, but I guess I just will willingly accepted that as a price to pay for for having this experience. so
00:29:41
Speaker
um Yeah, it's interesting that it's funny that you remember me having that pain because I do, but ah in in hindsight, it certainly wasn't the like the the sleep
Finding Joy Amidst Suffering
00:29:50
Speaker
problem. the The lack of sleep was is more in the forefront of my mind of the things that was was really hard for me to to contend with um more than that. So you're probably at the time on par with one another in terms of like, what is what's the bigger problem here for me or Vince?
00:30:08
Speaker
Yeah, but I mean, when you're doing that, like, the number of, you know, the types of suffering you're experiencing are are many. So, you know, yeah, you have your foot pain, that's one. Yeah, my foot pain, I don't want to give up because my foot hurt. Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The the sleep thing, for me, at least, was a bigger deal because if if that manifests in you, like, falling asleep, then then we got a big problem. Vince falls asleep, he falls off, and now Steve's there by himself.
00:30:37
Speaker
um and Which would suck a and b would be kind of a bummer you have to make some bad phone calls and shit when you got home but um so um Yeah, the sleep thing was more worrisome. I mean, the foot pain was like, yeah, this hurts, but you know, it's not preventing me from moving my foot the way it should move so that I don't fall off this mountain right now. so one of But yeah, and I just didn't want to give up because of something like that. I know it's a legit thing. and Any pain or injury, it's obviously some form of an injury, is a legitimate thing you don't want to like, and and maybe it did more damage than good over the years, but
00:31:15
Speaker
I didn't want to give up just because of something like something like that. It had to be like, I'm exhausted, I don't have the energy, we don't have the technical skill to climb this pitch or there's some extenuating hazard or the weather has changed. That to me was some reason to took quit but not not just because of some discomfort.
00:31:37
Speaker
Like, how would you know, for example, that you're exhausted or that you didn't have the technical skill? Well, with the technical skill, it might just be, I can't make this move without, you know, and there's obviously some subjective decision making, but, you know, you kind of know where you're at on a rock climb if you're at the crux and you're getting pumped and you haven't figured out the move. and Can't do it and see the tech technique strength or both and then the exhaustion component where we all know what that's like if i have you and i am others probably the listeners have done various. At least endurance oriented physical activities where you get to the certain point where you are on a regulation that doesn't let you do it and in this case is more of a slow burn so you're just like whoa i can't.
00:32:23
Speaker
can't keep going that would be the exhaustion thing and and you know judging like how close are we to complete physical exhaustion where we cannot come down either but that that said that that to me is like something that i was a little more in tune with uh wanting to to be aware of that than just some physical discomfort in my leg because of some foot pain. So you've got this nerve pain in your foot. You've got sleep deprivation. You've got ah this like exhaust, you know, quite a severe level of exhaustion. You know, you've got um you've got
00:33:07
Speaker
Hard tactical climbing. you know We've got unstable avalanche, unknown avalanche risk. You've got unstable, loose snow that's hard to move through. It's really cold, and then later it's really hot. You'll also remember that I i pushed us to leave our helmets at the high bivouac to save weight. And then we, of course, experienced some rockfall and stuff. And so we were like, shit, we wish we had our helmets. So there's all these things going on that are all reasons to, like any one of these is a reason for most people to turn around and be like, nope, but I'm good. Like that hurts too much. I'm too tired. um This is technically hard enough. You know, all of those things could could be good reasons. So, you know, what is it that made it so that those were not reasons for you to just be like, you know, Steve, I want to go down. I was happy.
00:34:03
Speaker
I found a lot of happiness being there with you at that time. um and And a lot of like other things
Peace and Fulfillment at High Altitudes
00:34:12
Speaker
ceased to matter. I was really at peace with this beauty of the, yeah I mean, I guarantee you could build a some sort of easy access way to get up that if, if you know, let's throw all the resources possible and you you could make it accessible by a lot of people to get to that point and they could still,
00:34:31
Speaker
being that exact same space that we were out or place on the planet in physical space and yeah but for whatever reason and given the the game that we play in this sort of rules that we've chosen to.
00:34:46
Speaker
um adapt to how we're gonna do it and you know all the things it takes to get, that took us to get there and pushed us in certain ways. um I did find some sense of beauty and I didn't really see any reason to want to go down. I guess that's kind of why maybe some people just walk to their deaths and those kind of places. and I certainly wasn't trying to do that or wanting to do that, but I think having this like inner calm, after I pushed through the the sleep thing like midday and we it was just all these other ah
00:35:17
Speaker
external things of, you know, a little discomfort here. But but I knew like physically i I can keep going. My body is doing it. I'm really happy right now. um Let's just keep rolling and and see where this journey leads us, which obviously it it led us there and back safely. and But I think that's why what led me to continue doing is I was very happy ah where I was at and what you know being there with you at the time, sharing that. and and that just kind of
00:35:49
Speaker
I guess it's it's almost an ineffable experience to try to share with people the presence of, ah particularly once we got to the whatever the faux summit, the so I don't know if it's the south summit, is that right? The lower summit, we're just kind of like, wow, this is really, what a muy tranquilo place this is on this sub-summit. And look, the the real summit's right over there.
00:36:14
Speaker
We might as well walk over that way. It took us hours to walk a little ways, but it that was like one of the most sublime few hours of my entire life that going up and back on um pretty easy terrain, but in this really amazing place. And probably just because of the state that at least I was in, I think we were shared the type of state we were in at that point. And and so like I suppose, at least for me, I can't necessarily speak for you, but there was just so that that that that sense of of of tranquility that I experienced at that point was willing was what led me to be willing to endure um the other external
00:36:57
Speaker
stimulus that would've suggested not to do it. Yeah, so your emotional response to this suffering was happiness. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I found quite a bit of happiness there. After taking whatever that was, a few minutes of like of a nap, I felt a better, it was like Vince 2.0 all of a sudden I woke up, I'm not a better person. Yeah, you did have a little power nap up there, probably 8,000 meters. And it's interesting that I've never heard you talk about how, as you said, Mui Tranquilo, that was on that upper... Yeah, it was pretty chill, man.
00:37:33
Speaker
But it it was very, like, yeah I also had that sensation. I think we probably were so connected at that point that our perceptions and I just imagine were the same because we were incredibly connected at that time in that place. And it was just the sink like there was no wind. it was yeah no It was shockingly warm. I mean, you'd think of an 8,000 meter peak. I mean, sure, it was cold. but It was but was comfortably cold, let's say. ah the snow was We could walk on top of the snow because the you know the summit area is obviously more windblown and it was it was easier to walk around. And it was just really peaceful up there. Really, really peaceful. yeah yeah i have that I have that sensation too.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, you have this feeling of walking somewhere you're not supposed to be. And we really aren't. I mean, our species did not evolve to be exist in that climate whatsoever.
Embracing Suffering for Broader Perspectives
00:38:31
Speaker
um And we're not equipped, you know, with what a lot I mean, we had equipment to provide us insulation from a a large portion of the the temperature, but not all of it. And and obviously, we weren't equipped to breathe that atmosphere for too long. But yeah, you have this this this weird feeling you're somewhere very foreign that you're not supposed to be. yeah you're Here you are. And it was quite peaceful, also a very violent place. I mean, we could walk on the snow. It was like wind hardened by probably yeah amazing winds. i'm I'm sure there's some pretty yeah unbelievable winds that blow up there.
00:39:08
Speaker
and ah you know It's kinda weird when you go to places like that that that are just all this and after extremes i don't know like i walked through the avalanche path that really just took out. You see the destructive forces but then you're in this like peaceful environment at the time cuz it's not active or that the hazard in there.
00:39:31
Speaker
at the moment so that that was kind of a part of part of the thing being up there that that i this this idea of being in a place that we weren't supposed to be in a certain sense but here we were and it was it was really ah special.
00:39:49
Speaker
Yeah, it certainly was. So, you know, you've done a lot of things in your life that have, you know, have involved a lot of suffering, whether it's your, you know, I didn't even mention all your mountain bike racing.
00:40:03
Speaker
you know, crack climbing, hard sport, I'm bouldering, all that stuff is pretty painful. There's a lot of suffering involved. And you're a mountain guide. And so you're out with a wide variety of people. We've guided a lot together as well. And we've guided some of the, like, the the toughest people on the planet to, you know, people who ah come from a background of never having been in the mountains before and are learning how to tie a figure eight, literally everything in between.
00:40:30
Speaker
Do you think people's response to suffering and discomfort is generally proportional? Where do people get stuck on suffering? Is it in their emotional response? Because like you're you've just been explaining what I think anybody would call extreme suffering. And your emotional response was happiness. But we've both been out with lots of people who who had much less suffering in the moment, and their emotional response was something quite different. I mean, the whole spectrum, right? From happiness to to the opposite. How much of that
00:41:10
Speaker
is under somebody's control. How much of that
Cultural Resilience in Climbing
00:41:12
Speaker
is under your control? How much control do you have over your response, your emotional response to what you're experiencing? Oh, I don't know, man. I sometimes wonder how much control we have over anything. It's maybe just an illusion of it, but ah I suppose there's some ability to control some factors through different things and I mean there's obviously some genetic component to predisposition to things and they're obviously ah your your you know you're you're set and setting your your environment you' that you've but grown up in. um ah you know You think of these ah accomplished at at least alpine climbers from
00:41:53
Speaker
particularly the Eastern European countries in the 70s and 80s. And at least my perspective was that their life was fairly difficult and they endured a lot of what Western culture would have considered suffering.
00:42:10
Speaker
I'm but they had to wear with all the means to do some of the same expeditions that the western. Europeans and north americans were were doing but doing so in in a style and a manner that was.
00:42:24
Speaker
they're you know willing to endure a lot more discomfort and suffering. And i' I've often wondered like, well, that's because they're their life back at you know where their family worked in the factory at Krakow was pretty hard. So they were used to hardships and and whether whether they were or weren't, I'm not certain. But I do think that suffering, theyre they're the component that I think you do have a little control over and and and maybe they're, I don't know, it might be like my body,
00:42:54
Speaker
um Doesn't get the same stimulus to tell you to stop doing something when there's a little bit of discomfort that the my neighbor does that's possible. But there's also a mind component um that i don't know if that's genetic or learned but i feel like, raving you know suffering is creating something that you don't have.
00:43:19
Speaker
And I'm sure it's a really good evolutionary product for us to do the right things to survive when it's more of a survival thing. you know made sure you so you got You didn't eat, you got hungry, and that doesn't feel good to be hungry, and it certainly made you motivated to go look for some more food.
00:43:39
Speaker
and on and on with the different stimulus. um But I think like just trying to do my craving for whatever it is that seems to be the cessation of it. is like For example, the... um The cessation of the pain in your foot?
00:43:56
Speaker
ah Yeah, to some extent, I think just letting go has helped me ah at least me, be be be somewhat more willing to endure discomfort. And, you know, a part of that, for me, it may stem back, you know, my... i was more attracted to endurance activities going up and cross country and long distance running and then eventually mountain biking. um And then even after Nanga Parbat, I got into mountain bike endurance racing, as you said, but ah that aspect of just enduring, that's why they call it endurance. You're enduring some level of, you know,
00:44:40
Speaker
what Your body doesn't really want to keep going. um There is a willpower component to it, and I think part of it is just letting go and acceptance of sitting with the discomfort. You're you're accepting the discomfort and realizing, ah, okay, so I'm i'm uncomfortable. All right, but if I still want this thing that, in this case, get up the mountain,
00:45:07
Speaker
um and I guess this level of discomfort isn't that bad. I can i can just live with it for for a while. and maybe Maybe I'm just willing to do that a little more than than some people, but yeah I'm not exactly sure what the but the cause and reasons for so some of these things are. i mean Some people will do it for other reasons. Some people will do it because they actually like seek out discomfort because they're dealing with psychological trauma. and you know i mean There's a whole spectrum of people that do self-harm and all kinds of behavioral things. that that
00:45:38
Speaker
Uh, perhaps if I sat down on the couch or somebody, they're like, Oh no, actually Vince, Vince is dealing with some problems and he was, uh, he was up there. Like that that was his like self medication. So there, there could be some component to that that I'm unaware of.
Climbing and Understanding Existence
00:45:52
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah, there could be, but let's, let's think about, you know, one of the things I want to do with these podcasts is pull out the things that are universally human, that anyone, whether they've ever climbed a mountain before or not, can learn something from. And so you said something interesting I want to go back to, and you said that it was letting go. And then you talked a little bit about what you were letting go of, but when you are suffering, when you're feeling the the pain, the fatigue, all of these things,
00:46:26
Speaker
What are you letting go of that allows you to lose that like kind of resistance to the to this feeling of suffering?
00:46:38
Speaker
um You know, it might be different for everyone, but at least for me, it's kind of letting go of me, of Vince, and thinking that I'm something special and different. And all of a sudden, I'm just another bag of protoplasm that's been built up on this.
00:46:59
Speaker
This particular you know galactic rock that we're on and I just kind of let go of feeling like unique. and ah I don't, it's hard for me to describe that, but I think letting go of feeling like I need to feel like certain things. So like letting go of this attachment towards, attachment um to a certain way of being and just accepting this is how something is and it's not better and it's not worse.
00:47:31
Speaker
than what I was like when I was sitting on my couch you know watching a nice movie or something with some friends or these other environments that might have less of those discomforts. but So you're letting go of the attachment to being Vince and you're letting go of the attachment to wanting to be comfortable. Is that right? Yeah. And yeah, I guess, or just accepting that this is just another phase of being, um, when you're not feeling perfect. And obviously as long as my muscle will keep doing it, just the other day I was doing something that was really uncomfortable.
00:48:09
Speaker
um Yeah i have the stupid problem in my ankle so i was guiding some skiing and we had hard snow. And i'm skating across a, yeah you know i got slow across the slope and the skis like really twerking on my ankles jacking my ankle bone and it hurts so bad i'm like oh i just want to stop.
00:48:30
Speaker
But I'm like, what? like It's not causing a blister. It's just some dull pain. ah Just let go of that and just keep going. Your muscles still work. Like the body's still gonna like, if I guarantee you try it again, they're gonna slide the skin forward and it'll do its thing. It's just all you gotta do is... ah Try and either like focus i either like focus on the pain intensely or like not focus on it and then that's just let me. Do it so i let go of worrying. Oh no my leg hurts i'm not gonna be able to guide this guy up this thing but just like oh.
00:49:05
Speaker
My leg hurts but my muscles still actually do this thing. I'm going to let go of of the idea that that's the necessary component to facilitate the completion of this activity and I'll keep doing it.
00:49:20
Speaker
You're going to let go of the idea or the conviction that you should be pain-free. Yes, yes. Just be like, this is part of my experience right now. Yeah, life is about that. I think that's maybe, I don't think people realize, like, life isn't, I mean, we definitely want to crave comfort and feeling good.
00:49:39
Speaker
Um, but there's also with, if you feel good, that means there's other times when you don't. and And I'm not saying we want to feel bad, but you got to kind of, you can't throw the baby out with the bathtub water. And there's all these range of things that we're going to feel. And I think you have to live with and love the not so great parts of it too. And I think we're pretty in our society condition to think like,
00:50:04
Speaker
You need to have good all the time and non-no bad. Bad is bad, but I don't really think that necessarily bad is bad, it just is. And so i'm I'm letting go of those ideas of what's good, what's bad, and this is and this is me at the moment, and I feel this way.
00:50:23
Speaker
And I enjoy the the place that I'm able to be right now because of this. So I'll do it. um Obviously, I don't want to do something that's going to cause me or someone else harm and in the process. And sometimes you can push through those kind of pains and do that. There's there's probably also a component here that we haven't really talked about that I definitely get this is that um the endorphins from um endurance like absolutely give me like 45 to 60 minutes they kick in I feel really good about things and that I'm sure there's some pain masking and things going on there that I get that I don't know if I get that on day six of an alpine climb they might be done by then but yeah at least on short-term stuff
00:51:09
Speaker
it's I want to go back to to something to that you said about, you know okay, let's let's set aside for a moment that there's all these different ah genres. I mean, you're an expert on metal, so like of course to you there's all these different shades of it. you know One of the things that I see in it, and I think that you see this in a lot of classical music,
00:51:32
Speaker
Like we talked about Ride of the Valkyries, where there is an an expression of some part of life that is not the beautiful love song, you know, sunshine and roses kind of stuff. It's it's the it's the soul's journey to heaven or something like that.
00:51:51
Speaker
Do you see a connection between this this kind of this music like this and, you know, alpinism, where it's it's an experience of a part of life that isn't, let's say, the i don't know I don't know if you want to call it the mainstream fun part of life, but yet you find value in it? Yes. I fully do. I think that's that's a good analogy. I think there is a lot of parts of at least what I think of as alpinism that aren't all about positives. And you can so for me, you can still find a lot of value and joy from that in spite. I won't call it evil. I'm i'm not one that necessarily believes in like good and evil. I'm not a real fan of that dichotomy of things. Things just are, and some things have better outcomes than others, at least from my personal
00:52:49
Speaker
perspective. You can't just listen to the Beatles, I want to hold your hand all day and think that's the way life is all the time. So, this was an answer to that to some extent and at that point in time in history and um And I think alpinism ah does also embrace a little bit of what some people consider darkness and light, and I will guarantee you for me as a young man wanting to get into it,
00:53:23
Speaker
The darker aspects of or at least what people consider that was very appealing to me and this is what turns i think this is really unique and i wasn't seeking death no um but the fact that it was a component there and. Play the role of something to be navigated. and With for whatever reason did not dissuade me but the aspects of it being serious
00:53:54
Speaker
or bitter in a way have used to not, that that was some of the appeal to me. Like this is, ah I don't know why. but But some of the appeal be that, you know, you knew and either intuitively or just through observation that there was something more to reality and into life than just The Beatles, I want to hold your hand all the time. That that was certainly part of it. Oh, yeah. But there's also this other thing and it's like, oh, what is this other thing? I want to know the whole picture. I want to know the whole spectrum of experience. I don't want to just know this one one part. No, no, there truth be told. um You know, ah if if you want to really know my thoughts on that kind of thing, it's I grew up in
00:54:48
Speaker
you know the suburban suburbs of the Denver area in the eighties and you know Ronald Reagan was the president and Everybody wanted to look good and, you know, the 80s had a lot of emphasis on vanity and Madonna was popular and her song was the material girl and Michael Jackson and that sort of thing. Something it like that's what people thought of is like, this is what it's this is it.
Philosophy and Risk in Climbing
00:55:16
Speaker
Something didn't quite jive with that about that with me. And I'm not sure what.
00:55:23
Speaker
And then um I had some experiences when I was young with some psychedelics. And it was like, whoa, someone just pulled the whole veil back, and like, wow, this is all a bunch of BS, man. This is all a bunch of bullshit. We just made up this whole scene that we're we're calling, this is culture and life. This is just a version of it that are the group of millions of people that I happen to live around came up with. And obviously, you can follow trace it back to wherever it came from. but
00:55:55
Speaker
And then i realize like i'm just living in this world is kinda made up and stuff and i thought a way to have the veil. Hold back again in the mountains ah at least in those environments for reasons i'm not entirely sure did that in.
00:56:13
Speaker
Part of it is again like you can take an escalator to that same spot i'm on the part that we are and you may or may not experience the same thing i did but i was not going to say that you would not there's no probably not no no well' because it's not the same spot like the physical spot is not the same as the metaphysical spot yes.
00:56:32
Speaker
Yeah, so the journey it took for me to get there, both in what you and I endured over several days, but also what the individual paths that we took through the years to be able to even have a shot at spending those days together going up there.
00:56:50
Speaker
That process for me was like pulling the veil away or you know like i'm now seeing what it allows me to experience existing for its own sake and not necessarily because of some.
00:57:07
Speaker
weird play that I'm part of, and I'm certainly not trying to be ah pessimistic about culture and all that. I realize we've created it for for reasons for our species' survival, and it's just kinda weird. You're seeking your truth. You're seeking the truth for you.
00:57:26
Speaker
Yes, I was. And so, yeah, there that's probably why I find some of the aspects, the darker parts of that are not as dark as some people might think they are, a though there are some real consequences to them that most people do not think of as positive ones. but say same and What are you talking about?
00:57:46
Speaker
doing something that involves that level of risk of death would arguably for some people to be um not, there's not much virtue in in following that path. Like if that's what you need to do, I mean. ah Yeah. Can we just say 99.9999% of people or whatever it is? Like it's almost everybody.
00:58:07
Speaker
A lot, but I mean, still people do these things. um Yeah, so I get it. that that That path may not work for everybody in order to find their truth or whatever it might be that they want to get out of it. And for me, it seemed to be a reasonable um cost, I guess. and And the cost, it wasn't just that I might have something. The cost was getting involved in a community, in a culture where You know, you and I, if if we looked at a old school telephone book with all the names and numbers on there, that would look like, okay, here's all the people in your life that are not around anymore. Because they've encountered something that that ended their life prematurely um as a result of of participating in this scene scene that you're part of. So that's part of the cost. too
00:58:55
Speaker
You know, I specifically have some of those, remember those old little phone number books you used to carry that would fit in your back pocket usually, and they'd be like indexed by alphabet, and you'd put people's names and numbers in there by hand. And I have a couple of those that have a bunch of names and numbers of people that are not here anymore, and I can't throw them away because I open them up. Oh yeah, I have a hard time with that. When you say loss,
00:59:25
Speaker
You say you have a hard time with loss. like Do you have a hard time with loss or do we as humans have a hard time with loss and is loss really change or is it loss? Which is it? Well, I i think humans have a hard time with loss. I'm a human. Yeah. So I do too. Sure.
00:59:46
Speaker
so
00:59:49
Speaker
You're 54 years old. You've done big alpine-style first ascents on, I don't know, at least four different continents. You have all these incredible achievements around you know guiding, and you're still active as it as a guide, and you're climbing a lot. You have three amazing sons and amazing wife. You've done so many things.
01:00:12
Speaker
Are you happy? I am. i'm I'm very happy. By and large, you know, obviously some days are better than others, but I'm i'm and considers myself a pretty happy person. Yeah. What dreams do you have left to do? Dreams in terms of like goals, like life goals.
01:00:32
Speaker
Yeah, I got four more decades of living the dream. A lot of life left. And so what is that dream right now? My dreams are to continue connecting with people in more meaningful manners and particularly the people closest to me, my my my family here, obviously staying connected to the other people that I've had experiences with such as you and others.
01:00:55
Speaker
and Those are my real dreams to sit to to be ah enrich the lives of others by and and my own by just staying connected with them. And and and also, you know, I really like being connected to I don't know if you want to call it like the universe or the earth or whatever. It's the bigger picture of things outside of just social and human beings. like I like staying connected to being out there. So I like to get outside and and try to be present and have that connection. So for me, those are my dreams is to continue that and and and yeah primarily just enjoy. Remain happy, content.
01:01:39
Speaker
No. And how would do you want to be remembered? I don't know that I want to be remembered. No, I don't know. Just hopefully that my... ah
01:01:52
Speaker
Yeah, I haven't put a lot of thought into that one. I just want to be remembered by the people that know me or knew me directly, um, as, as a positive force in their positive, uh, I don't know about force, but thought positive presence in, in their life. That that's all that I was a nice person. Really.
01:02:16
Speaker
I suppose that's it. ah That's a great. i didn't That I didn't fuck shit up too bad. you know He was nice, and he didn't really fuck anything up. I mean, that's better than a lot of people, myself probably.
Connecting with Vince Anderson
01:02:32
Speaker
That's pretty great.
01:02:34
Speaker
oh well It's been such a pleasure to have you on the show. For our listeners, you want to tell us where they can find you online, on socials. Yeah, I would like to say first that this has been a really interesting conversation with you, Steve, because I know you well enough. and I was thinking, what are we going to talk about that he doesn't already know? You know, like we kind of know a lot about each other. But but yeah, this has been really, I think the
01:03:07
Speaker
content of what you wanted to talk about was was really cool. yeah So thanks. um But yeah people can find me if they want to. I'm not that hard to find um on the internet, ah primarily through my business, my mountain guiding business, Skyward Mountaineering. So that's one way I still like to connect. And and that's one of the reasons I do what I do. I like sharing what what I love, connection in the way that I do it through climbing and skiing with other people. so I run the the mountain guiding business skyward mountaineering and they can find me there. I am on there um by my alter ego ice events on instagram, facebook, probably just Vince Anderson skyward mountaineering on those sorts of things. So that's how people can find me and connect with me at least in those avenues if they're interested.
01:03:57
Speaker
And I wanted to add, like you and I co-owned and operated Skyward Mountaineering for roughly 10 years, and it was a great experience. And it's a great thing that you guys are doing and continuing to do, and you're really, really gifted at it. And Skyward Mountaineering is an uphill athlete partner. So Skyward Mountaineering guests get discounts on uphill athlete services.
Community Support and Shared Experiences
01:04:21
Speaker
I also want to say, Vince, thank you for Responding the way you I knew you would which was unflinchingly and just kind of diving into the deep end I I knew I could just kind of throw you into this without any warning and that you would have a great response and we would have a great discussion and that both myself and our audience would
01:04:46
Speaker
have something to go away and feel like we learned something, have something to reflect on about our own beliefs, and you know come away better for it. So thank you for that. Yeah, thanks. I enjoyed chatting with you for a little while.
01:05:03
Speaker
The uphill athlete podcast team and I really enjoy creating Voice of the Mountains for you. And if you enjoy listening, the easiest no-cost way to support us is to hit that subscribe button. Also, please consider dropping a review into wherever you get your podcasts. We are incredibly grateful for both the support and the feedback. If you're looking for more support, we have a newsletter we send out regularly. Just head to uphillathlete.com and find the sign up in the website footer. And remember, no one does it alone. Our door is always open to you and we support athletes in a myriad of ways from injury prevention and recovery to nutrition coaching, training groups, and of course, our famous one-on-one coaching.
01:05:43
Speaker
So please share your favorite episode with a friend and let us know how we can best support you. Thank you for listening to the uphill athlete podcast and voice of the mountains.