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Episode 3: Cultural Appropriation in Witchcraft
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Welcome back Witches! This week we will be taking a deep dive into Cultural Appropriation in Witchcraft. Throughout this episode, we'll discuss what is cultural appropriation vs. what is cultural appreciation, and how we in the witchy community can respect various cultures without disrespecting them and causing them harm. So get in losers, and lets discuss Cultural Appropriation in Witchcraft.
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Music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio- The Witch
- Gottlieb, Kathryn, "Cultural Appropriation in Contemporary Neopaganism and Witchcraft" (2017). Honors College. 304. https://digitalcommons.library.umaine.edu/honors/304
- Parmigiani (HDS), Giovanna, Cultural Appropriation in Neopagan and New Age Religion: A Conversation with Sabina Magliocco. (2021). Harvard Divinity School. https://cswr.hds.harvard.edu/news/cultural-appropriation/2021/12/1
- Joho, Jess & Morgan Sung, How to be a Witch Without Stealing Other People’s Cultures. (2020). Mashable. https://mashable.com/article/witchtok-problematic-witch-cultural-appropriation
- Joho, Jess & Sung, Morgan (31 October 2020). How to be a witch without stealing other people’s cultures. Mashable. https://mashable.com/article/witchtok-problematic-witch-cultural-appropriation
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Transcript
Introduction to Witchcraft and Spirituality
00:00:00
Speaker
Do you feel drawn to learn more about spirituality, witchcraft, and the occult, but feel lost on where to start? Then welcome to Get In Loser, we're doing witchcraft, a podcast all about what it means to be a witch and where to get started on your journey. Join us as we navigate through various witchy topics and share what we have learned about the craft. So get in witches and let's not culturally appropriate.
00:00:30
Speaker
It's been such a gloomy couple of days. Like every morning it'll start out here where I'm at, it'll be kind of sunny and it'll seem like it's gonna be the best day ever. And then by noon it's pouring down rain and it's terrible outside and just wet and gross. We're just freezing all the time. And I think we actually hit the fifties today and I'm like, do I need a jacket? It's so warm because it's been so cold. Yeah, right. So the 50, like it feels like
00:01:00
Speaker
It feels way hotter than it is. What is it outside? It's 44 degrees outside where I'm at right now, but it's just, cause it's rainy. It feels so much colder. I feel like.
00:01:13
Speaker
We're 44 right now too, but our high today is 58. Dang. Almost 60. I know. And it's supposed to get like up to 60 on Wednesday, but then there's like snow forecasted tomorrow night. And I'm like, this makes no sense. Of course. We just get it together, please. Of course. Cause it can't be the Midwest without snow. Weird weather. And then warm the next day. And then, and then warm the next day. Because it keeps doing that tornadoes too.
00:01:42
Speaker
Of course, yeah. Well, it's no surprise, I feel like for anybody that for the next seven days, every day, it's going to rain because, you know, England.
Cultural Appropriation in Witchcraft: A Thesis Discussion
00:01:54
Speaker
So today we're going to be talking about cultural appropriation versus cultural appreciation.
00:01:59
Speaker
And more specifically, how this impacts our practice as witches or within the pagan community and ways we can practice without appropriation. This is a heavy topic and one that can be uncomfortable for some people. And you may be wondering why this is such a big deal. This just sounds like political rhetoric. But the fact of the matter is cultural appropriation and witchcraft is rampant. And with the growing popularity of witchcraft and pagan beliefs,
00:02:23
Speaker
There comes along with it a lot of misinformation that needs to be addressed, especially surrounding what is stolen without consent from other cultures. Katherine Gottlieb, I'm not sure if I'm saying her name right, but sorry if you ever listen to this and I'm mispronouncing your name. She put it best in her thesis surrounding cultural appropriation and witchcraft.
00:02:43
Speaker
The link to this, as with all of our source material we put in our show notes, but she says, what's the big deal? Appropriation represents a continuation of colonialism. When people appropriate, they are perpetrating old oppressive systems and exercising their power over people who have traditionally had their power taken away. I think that this quote is a great way to kind of start the episode because it just highlights the importance of why cultural appropriation is so problematic and needs to be addressed.
00:03:12
Speaker
So with that, I think it's important to understand the definitions of what we're going to be talking about today. So culture is a complex system of knowledge, symbols, meanings, practices, and beliefs that characterizes a specific group of people in a specific time and place. Cultural appropriation is the act of taking or using things from a culture that is not your own, especially without showing that you understand or respect the culture.
00:03:40
Speaker
It suggests that the person appropriating is in some way more powerful than the group that they're appropriating from and that appropriation does harm in some way to the group that's being appropriated from as well if it perpetuates stereotype examples.
00:03:55
Speaker
Some of the research that I was doing on cultural appropriation, they listed as a power imbalance because it's seen as cultural theft and that there's like a message of entitlement because the colonizer gets to the side.
00:04:12
Speaker
What is important, what they are allowed to take and how others should feel about their taking it because the power and entitlement is so ingrained in our culture. It's hard to separate when it's being used. And so that can make it difficult for people to understand if what they're doing is actual cultural appropriation.
00:04:30
Speaker
or if it's appreciation. So as far as cultural appreciation, that is defined as when someone seeks to understand and learn about another culture and an effort to broaden their perspective and connect with others cross-culturally.
00:04:46
Speaker
The term cultural appropriation emerged as part of the post-colonial critique of anthropology in the late 1970s and early 1980s. One of the first to write about the issues of cultural appropriation was Kenneth Coot Smith, who called it cultural colonialism in 1976 in reference to indigenous cultures in the Americas.
00:05:06
Speaker
Cultural appropriation changes the traditional way something is practiced because the meaning is changed when the dominant culture takes it without permission. It can prevent the oppressed or indigenous crafters from profiting from their art. And in some instances, it can make it difficult for the oppressed culture to find what has been appropriated for their own ritualistic purposes.
Understanding Culture and Identity
00:05:29
Speaker
So it's important to note that culture is homogenous and it's something that changes over time and place. It's not something that stays the same.
00:05:36
Speaker
even if they have similar practices. Different practitioners of culture in the same time and same place will have different concepts about what their culture actually is. We're all people. We all think differently. Nobody's going to think exactly the same as the person down the street. Culture is something that's learned. It's not biologically inherited. And I think this is really important to note because it's a distinction from race and ethnicity.
00:06:03
Speaker
your race and ethnicity isn't your culture. An example that I found is that like a person, you know, we all have those DNA tests now.
00:06:11
Speaker
spit in a tube, mail it in, and they send you like what exactly your DNA is. So if a person gets a DNA test done and the results show that you have X DNA, whatever it is, then they decide they have the right to practice that X culture, but culture is something that's learned. And by learning, we have access to it. So if you didn't grow up in that culture and you haven't learned it, then it's not your culture. We have access to more than one culture through moving.
00:06:39
Speaker
So if you grow up in one culture and then move to another location, you become part of that culture through learning. You can be part of any race, any ethnicity, but belong to a culture dependent upon where you live or where you grew up. One of the articles that I came across, let me look at her name really quick. I have it in my notes. Sabina Magliocco.
00:07:00
Speaker
She is a professor of anthropology and she explained this in a way that it just kind of like blew my mind, right? Because I have struggled with what cultural appropriation is versus cultural appreciation because it's kind of a toxic topic sometimes, all types of like, whether it's Facebook, any social media, YouTube videos, whatever.
00:07:23
Speaker
Some people that are teaching about it don't actually understand what they're teaching. So I've had a hard time understanding exactly what it is. I try to not do things if I think it could even be slightly considered appropriation. So something that she used to describe this is if you have a child born in Korea that ends up being adopted by American parents and they grow up in America, their culture is American.
00:07:52
Speaker
their race and their ethnicity is Korean. So even though they're Korean, they didn't grow up in a Korean culture, they grew up in an American culture. So growing up here, no matter what your DNA test tells you, your culture is American unless
00:08:08
Speaker
you grew up with people who like your grandparents came from somewhere and they taught you these traditions, then your culture could be a mixed culture between American where you grew up and what your family has taught you. For me, I know like I've done my DNA tests. I know that I've
00:08:25
Speaker
I have Irish in my family. I have Scottish in my family. My grandmother, I feel like all of our grandmothers tell us that we have Native American in our family. But I didn't grow up with those cultures. I grew up in America. And while I have lived in another country and I've experienced those cultures, I haven't lived in a place where I would have a relationship with my Irish culture or Scottish culture.
00:08:52
Speaker
While it's there, it's, it's more like you appreciate those things. You learn about them because they are part of the history, but you don't practice those things because you didn't grow up there. Right. That's how it was explained. And like, I feel like this is the first time that I've read something on cultural appropriation and I fully understood it. I sent you the link immediately the night after I finished listening to, cause there's a whole interview.
00:09:15
Speaker
with this professor of anthropology. The way she breaks things down just it honestly did just like everything clicked and I was like oh my gosh this whole time I've you know been like tiptoeing around this topic because I don't really fully understand it but then I listened to her speak and I was like oh my gosh now I fully understand what what this means and why it's important. She talks about you know how it does harm and how people profit off of these cultures by
00:09:44
Speaker
taking things from them because it's popular or they like it or they feel entitled to it. And so it was really interesting. And the link to the interview will also be in the show notes. And I highly recommend anyone listening go also listen to this because this is, it's honestly the best one I've ever come across that just really explained things so in depth that I understood what was going on.
00:10:06
Speaker
When I feel like two, it is harder. Well, I don't think it's necessarily harder for Americans to grasp this concept, but I feel like you see it a lot in America because America is such a melting pot of different cultures and backgrounds, but at the same time too, it's so easy in America. Like anytime somebody is talking about their background or something, they're always, they'll say, oh, you know, like for me, for instance,
00:10:32
Speaker
Oh, yeah, we are our family came from England and Germany and France. That doesn't make me English, German or French. But a lot of people will kind of accept those identities as this is who I am. OK, yeah, your family may have come from England, Germany and France like hundreds of years ago. That doesn't make you English, German and French. That makes you American because you grew up here.
00:10:55
Speaker
this is your identity and this is your culture is American. And even like with, for instance, like for my family, like we are English, we currently live in England. That doesn't make me English. I'm an American living in England. And so I feel like sometimes Americans can get hung up on claiming a culture as their identity when they aren't of that culture.
00:11:19
Speaker
Well, and this is something that she touches on too, which I had it later in my notes, but I think this is a good point to talk about it. She talks about how there has to be a relationship, right? So even if you aren't part of a culture, if say you marry someone from a different culture, that becomes a relationship.
Appreciation vs. Appropriation: Where's the Line?
00:11:39
Speaker
And so
00:11:40
Speaker
One of the examples she gave was like if her son married someone who was white and he has like a favorite meal. And so his wife comes and says, can you teach me how to make this meal because I want to keep your son happy. If she teaches her how to make it so that she can in turn continue to make this for her son who grew up eating this and keep him happy, that's a relationship where two people become equals.
00:12:07
Speaker
So it's not that the daughter-in-law went to the mother-in-law and took it from her. She built a relationship with her, learned it from her, and then was given permission to make it and to continue doing this.
00:12:22
Speaker
without having to go to her. And she also talks about like, oh, if you get invited, right, you get invited into some type of practice. If you go and you don't participate, it's rude, right? If you go in and you're like, well, I'm not part of this culture, so I'm not doing this.
00:12:41
Speaker
Well, it's rude because you've been invited in to participate. And then if you participate and you go and you take that without asking and you start doing it on your own, you didn't build that relationship. There's not a point where the two people were equal. You took it without permission and you go on and
00:12:59
Speaker
continue using it and maybe you benefit from it, maybe you profit from it, and that's where it becomes appropriation. But if you go in and you build the relationship and you participate and you're given permission to use the practice, then that becomes appreciation.
00:13:15
Speaker
That's interesting to note because my husband is Filipino, as you know, and his mom, she taught me how to cook like literally same scenario, all of the foods that she wanted her son to be able to eat on a daily basis or whenever, because it's part of his Filipino heritage. And that's something that I make for my husband and then for our children as well, because she doesn't want them to lose that connection to their culture because obviously I'm white.
00:13:45
Speaker
I am not Asian at all. And that's not something that I would know had she not taken the time to teach me because she doesn't want her children to lose that aspect of that culture.
00:13:59
Speaker
Right. And that shows that like, you know, obviously you have a relationship with your husband's mom and you guys have come together and she taught you how to do this. You became equals, you built the relationship and you were given that specific part of their culture to continue on with your family. Okay. So going back to where we were, um, before we went on a tangent, there's no culture that is uninfluenced by other cultures. You know, we've,
00:14:27
Speaker
We've lived for how many years as humans on this earth? There's so many times that cultures have come into contact with each other. Every instance of culture transfer or cultural hybridity is an example of cultural appropriation. So why does appropriation happen? Appropriation happens because capitalism co-modifies culture. Culture is a commodity that can be owned.
00:14:52
Speaker
according to capitalism. You can buy cultural foods, objects from other cultures, symbols of that culture's identity. And this does not characterize cultural exchanges before the advent of consumer capitalism. Cultural appropriation is rooted in consumer capitalism and in a Western notion that culture can be owned. So capitalism itself has kind of created cultural appropriation, saying, you know, you go to a grocery store and they have the
00:15:20
Speaker
like the international aisles, you know, you can buy food from different cultures. You can go, you know, if you're traveling, I've noticed this because we've made a few trips from Illinois to Arizona, where my husband's family like does their Thanksgiving celebrations. So on the way there, driving through New Mexico, if you stop at any gas station, truck stop, whatever,
00:15:44
Speaker
You can purchase, what are the blankets from Mexico? Oh, I know what you're talking about, but I don't know what they're called, but the ones with the, their colors and the stripes. Yes. Yeah. I don't know what they're called though. I don't either. So I apologize. I'm terrible for that, but, um, you can buy the, you know, blankets from Mexico trinkets from Mexico in new Mexico, which is not.
00:16:10
Speaker
on the border of Mexico, which so that's kind of weird. But they also have like Native American themed stops like truck stops, tourist attractions where you can like go inside of a teepee or you know like take pictures with a Native American and it's like the stereotyped headdress with the hatchet kind of like just inappropriate period but
00:16:36
Speaker
just driving through, it's all about how do we make money off of these things that are
00:16:42
Speaker
kind of a tourist attraction, essentially. Right. And it could be like, I mean, especially with, I'm not sure, I don't know a lot about the culture in Mexico. So I'm not sure like the symbolism within the blankets, but I know, I mean, at least with the headdress, that's a very symbolic thing that is very inappropriate for people who are not within that culture to even have near them.
00:17:07
Speaker
And the blanket, they do make sure that it's authentic. It's just big letters printed on signs. You can get them here. It's authentic. So it's like, is it authentic? Yeah, yeah. Because if it's authentic, then where is the profits going back to the person who made it? And if not, then did you just buy these off of Amazon? And now you're trying to sell them. See, I've never been out that way. I mean, it's beautiful. Well, we think it's beautiful. We grew up in the desert. We absolutely love desert landscape.
00:17:37
Speaker
So it's very, you do have mountains, which are beautiful, but yeah, it's very dirt and Joshua Tree and cacti and tumbleweed.
00:17:47
Speaker
that's what we love. So cultural appropriation also happens because of ignorance. So someone might not fully understand the deep rooted traditions of the culture that they're appropriating. Intention isn't to cause harm when they do this, but rather bring joy and amusement to the person integrating the elements into their own culture. So they don't necessarily mean to do harm, but they
00:18:15
Speaker
are inherently doing harm by appropriating someone else's culture into their own. So entitlement, something looks enjoyable, so their interest becomes more important to them. Appropriation is a cornerstone of Western culture because it's necessary due to gaps in knowledge on the topic of ancient European paganism, and because it makes practitioners feel more legitimate when they can fill in the gaps. So a lot of
00:18:41
Speaker
European paganism history was lost during the reign of like Puritans and Christianity. They've burned a lot of that information along with a lot of even like medical science that they considered to be witchcraft. We lost a lot of that during these times. And so sometimes when you're learning about something, there might be pieces missing and instead of being like, oh,
00:19:06
Speaker
that's weird, it's missing, but whatever, they will take from another culture because if they can make it seem like they have all of their ducks in a row when they're practicing something, it makes them feel like they're more legitimate in their practice because there's no missing gaps there. Eclecticism is another reason for appropriation. Someone who considers himself eclectic draws inspiration from wherever they see it and sometimes
00:19:32
Speaker
where they see it is from other cultures and it ends up being appropriation, whether they mean to or
Capitalism and Cultural Commodification
00:19:38
Speaker
not. The explorer mentality. So they're not born in that culture, but they're interested in it. So they want to learn about it and practice it. Whenever I think of the explorer mentality, this might even fit in with like entitlement. I think one of the best examples of this is there is this, I'm not sure if you've heard of this guy. His name is Ollie London, but he's an internet personality. I think he's like a YouTuber or something.
00:20:01
Speaker
But he's from England. He's white as me. No color, no seasoning, white. And he really likes BTS, was really interested in one of the singers, Jimin. And so he went and had a whole ass like facial surgery to look like him.
00:20:21
Speaker
And has changed his name to Jimin and claims now that he's Korean. And I'm just like, that doesn't make me Korean. That's a whole nother level of appropriation. That's wild. There's a lot to unpack in that whole situation. There really is. Anyways, back to the job again.
00:20:42
Speaker
The last one that I have listed is contradictions. So not all members of commonly appropriated cultures agree as to what is considered appropriation and what is considered appreciation. And that makes it hard for those outside of the culture to understand what they can and can't do or can and can't use in their own practices. And this is something that you and I actually talked about when we were doing some of the research for this specific topic is that
00:21:09
Speaker
It was hard to find articles that said the same thing, like moving from one article to the next, you would get completely different definitions of what cultural appropriation was. And you see this also a lot in, I know like a lot of pagan groups that I'm in, one of the big topics is always sage, like white sage. And you have Native Americans in there that are like,
00:21:32
Speaker
nobody cares just do whatever you want use it and then you have other ones that are like oh you don't speak for me like you don't speak for our whole culture you can't um what is the actual term is it saging smudging smudging smudging i knew i was like it's not right sage is not right but um the term smudging and this is something that i have actually a couple points later
00:21:55
Speaker
But terminology is what's important. Sometimes the terminology is what's being appropriated, whereas smoke cleansing has been used across several cultures for forever, basically. Smoke cleansing is not considered appropriation.
00:22:13
Speaker
but the term smudging is because it is a very deep rooted ritual in Native American tribes that they use. Whereas like you can use, you know, incense or rosemary or whatever to smoke cleanse and that's not considered appropriation, but it's the terminology. So it's important to know where the line is with appropriation and under like fully understanding what you're doing or what you're saying.
00:22:44
Speaker
Yep. That is true. Yeah. It's yeah. It makes it really difficult to understand like you were saying where that line is, especially whenever people are used terms like that. So interchangeably, right? And they don't know why they shouldn't be using that term.
00:22:59
Speaker
And I think it just goes to show that within our community as a whole, we need to make sure that we're using the correct terms. And then if we come across somebody who's not using the correct terms, I mean, you don't have to be an asshole about it, but just let them know like, Hey, actually maybe use the term smoke cleansing instead because. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and this came up, like, it actually came up recently. And that's why I thought of that particular one in a group that I'm in. And they were like, you can even just say saging, if you're using Sage.
00:23:29
Speaker
You know, make sure of course you're getting your white sage from indigenous people because white sage is kind of their thing. So you're not purchasing it from them and you're purchasing it from Walmart who also sells it. They're, they're profiting off of indigenous, right? It really does. But like profiting off of a culture that they have no ties to.
00:23:52
Speaker
So getting into more of like cultural appropriation and witchcraft, you know, as we've discussed in the first episode, beginning in the mid 1800s until now, interest in traditional folk practices, songs, and rituals rose exponentially. And with that, so did certain occultist practices such as like yoga, trance healing, meditation, seances. Because of this, more and more people were pulling practices from
00:24:21
Speaker
different religions, whether it be Eastern religions, mythology, mysticism, as well as Renaissance era alchemy and healing practices using herbs and other natural elements. Then throughout like the 1960s and 70s, really until the internet helped unite people, at least in America, I will say, there was a huge rise in occultist and metaphysical bookshops,
00:24:47
Speaker
catering to neo-pagan beliefs. They also had like retreats and classes to help educate pagan practitioners and also workshops, but those retreats and classes and workshops and even the bookshops, they kind of gate kept information because unless you just happen to live in one of those areas or you had the money to travel and pay for those classes and workshops and retreats and whatnot, you really couldn't access the information.
00:25:12
Speaker
Yeah, but now with the internet, there really isn't any information that can't be accessed, unless of course you're trying to access peer reviewed research and that
00:25:27
Speaker
But I think it's just important to note that most of the information now that about different beliefs and religions, it's all very accessible at our fingertips.
White Privilege and Cultural Appropriation in Witchcraft
00:25:38
Speaker
And with that comes the wrong information or information that you just need to make sure that you're
00:25:45
Speaker
you're cross researching it and figuring out if this is correct information. If this, if this practice is a closed or an open practice, and that's something that we'll talk about in a little bit as well. And then I think it's also important to note that a lot of neo pagans and people who identify as witches are white, which means that when discussing power and privilege, white people have historically been
00:26:08
Speaker
and continue to be the most privileged group in society, that can be really tricky for people to accept. It's us essentially taking from groups who have been historically oppressed and that's not okay. I also found a common theme or complaint by a lot of the people that I used in research for this topic. They talked about how books that are written for witches
00:26:34
Speaker
rarely mention cultural appropriation in them. So it's more of a concept that seems to be discussed in books about witches and witchcraft and different cultures, but it's not in books written for witches to use in their practice. So a lot of times, you know, you might go and pick up a book that you're like, oh, I want to learn about these things, but they don't tell you the importance of the culture that these things came from. And then you don't realize what you're doing is actual cultural appropriation.
00:27:03
Speaker
We've discussed this time and again, and we've mentioned it already on the podcast this episode, but information, you know, on witches and paganism in the past is not very well documented at all. And even with like the Druids, for example, nothing about their
00:27:20
Speaker
practice or their culture was retained. All we know about them was what was written down by their conquerors. And so because of this, Neopagans and modern day witches are faced with the reality that in order to practice as close to what their ancestors, either culturally or like actual ancestors did, they, we have to borrow and meld different traditions and practices and
00:27:42
Speaker
With research on historical pagan communities, what has been written down from European pagan practices mirrors much of what has been practiced in many other parts of the world and can be seen to legitimize practices because a lot of the tenants of paganism and witchcraft have the same tenants of other practices because there's the revering of nature, using herbs and healing practices,
00:28:05
Speaker
um, practicing meditation and just getting in touch with your inner self. And these are all things that have been seen in many other practices throughout the world. Right. So I think it's important to understand when you're doing your research, make sure you're cross-referencing obviously, but make sure that what you're trying to practice is an open practice. You don't want to, um, do
00:28:30
Speaker
closed practices because they're not for you, right? So open practices or religions are available to anyone to use practice or participate in. Closed practices or religions are for that particular culture only. So one must be born into or initiated or invited into that culture to be able to practice. General consensus is that only members of the culture get to decide what is or is not cultural appropriation from those practices.
Closed Practices and Cultural Impact
00:29:00
Speaker
So how cultural appropriation does harm is that it always comes down to power, right? The appropriation always comes down to power. It represents a continuation of colonialism. It perpetuates old oppressive systems exercising power over people who traditionally had power taken from them, a power imbalance. It shows some amount of entitlement on the person appropriating and the appropriator decides what's important, what they're allowed to take,
00:29:29
Speaker
and what other people should feel about their taking it and that gives them absolute power. This leads to a variety of issues for cultures being appropriated and damages the entirety of traditions due to outsider influences and changes. As I've mentioned before, sometimes there comes a point where
00:29:47
Speaker
The person appropriating ends up profiting off of these cultures, and that's not something that should be allowed. It should be illegal, but there's not a lot of legal protections against cultural appropriation. The protections that are out there are very minimal. An example that this comes back to the Professor Magliocco interview.
00:30:09
Speaker
She talks about a situation, it was a story she had met with a group of indigenous people during a paper, a research paper she was doing, and one of them had told her a story about how
00:30:22
Speaker
So he was an artist in the tribe. He had a bunch of just beautiful paintings and other types of art that he had done. And he had gone kind of door to door in the town to a bunch of different stores to see if they would be willing to carry his art for him and sell it, or if they wanted to purchase it. And going into each of these locations, he saw that they had basically
00:30:49
Speaker
taken a lot of the themes that were in his art from indigenous people because they were in that area and they already had like artwork and sculptures or whatever like basically everything that he was trying to sell for to like support himself
00:31:06
Speaker
they were already selling something very similar to it and they weren't part of that culture. So they were profiting off it and then at the same time, making it so that he could not profit off his own works because they already had a capital on it. Yikes. So with that example, things that we need to remember are like a lot of big brand stores do the same thing. Urban Outfitters has chakra body sprays that you can purchase from them.
00:31:35
Speaker
While chakras specific to Southern Asia Hinduism and doesn't have anything to do with urban outfitters Sephora
00:31:45
Speaker
Everybody knows Sephora. If you're a girl listening to us, you probably buy makeup from Sephora. They carry starter witch sets. And these starter sets include White Sage. And to keep up with the demand of them, because when they first released them, they like flew off the shelves. They started over harvesting to keep up with the high demands and the trendiness. And it was making White Sage increasingly inaccessible to native communities who actually use this in their own
00:32:14
Speaker
practices and rituals. That is terrible. Yeah. I found like a whole article just on Sephora's witch kits alone. And I was like, ooh, yikes. Yeah, that is crazy. So we don't have Sephora here, which is
00:32:29
Speaker
terrible. I am in Europe, but they don't have them in England. But so I've not seen that because I don't think they were that whenever we moved over here. But I don't think we have Sephora here either. They might in St. Louis, but oh, yeah, I know we have we have Ulta here.
00:32:45
Speaker
Oh yeah, I think the nearest one I think is there's a mall, a really big nice mall with like the bougie stores in St. Louis somewhere. The Galleria, I think that's where it's at. Yeah, so we don't have one here and I haven't been to the Galleria in forever so I didn't see them. Yeah, like apparently this was like a majorly known issue.
00:33:06
Speaker
um for the community and there's several you can actually find several articles on it just like the overharvesting of stage by Sephora alone. That's insane. Yeah and they it's none of the money none of the profits went to any like indigenous cultures it was all in Sephora's pocket.
00:33:27
Speaker
course. Yeah. Yikes. And yeah, well, and I feel like I know you had mentioned Walmart earlier selling Sage as well. Yeah. And then I actually saw it whenever I was back, uh, visiting this during Christmas in Oklahoma, I saw a five and below they were selling white Sage and they were selling, um,
00:33:50
Speaker
all sorts of like witchy like books and, and, and everything, which I don't think there's anything wrong with like, you know, if you want to buy a book from five and below about tarot or something, you know, go ahead, but please don't buy your Sage from one of these big brand stores. I mean, that money's not going back to the, the.
00:34:10
Speaker
the communities that they're stealing this from. Yeah. And it's just not good. I, and I know I'm guilty of it too, you know, like not being somebody who has been trying to learn to be better about it. I know I've kind of stepped away from just white sage in general and I use like, you know, rosemary bunches or, um,
00:34:34
Speaker
cedar bunches, those kinds of things. But when I do buy something like that, I do also try to make sure that it's being purchased from those cultures, because it's okay, like, and that's another thing that she talked about, the professor Magliocco, it's okay if you're purchasing it from that culture, if they are selling it, they're giving you permission, allowing you to buy it, but make sure that you're doing it from that culture so that they're the ones profiting it off.
00:35:03
Speaker
profiting off of it. Exactly. Or five below or Sephora. Another one that I put it in the notes because I felt it was important to mention is that countless brands like
00:35:19
Speaker
Urban Outfitters, American Eagle, just there, you can probably find this term on a number of like big store brands for clothing, but countless brands use the term gypsy to market boho, like that boho chic look. And it's, you know, that's not a, that's like
00:35:41
Speaker
derogatory term. So they use it to be like cute and catchy, but it's it's not something that should be on a shirt, let alone a shirt that somebody who is white in America wearing when you write then like part of the Romani culture. And then they also use crystals and fortune telling to market this like trendy, trendiness of witchcraft.
00:36:04
Speaker
So just make sure you know where you're buying cultural items
Social Media's Influence on Witchcraft Culture
00:36:08
Speaker
from. Be sure that they are sourced from people from those cultures and that they're not part of a closed practice. Not doing so is what does harm to these cultures. So also
00:36:20
Speaker
With TikTok being as big as it is today, it's also important to know that the TikTok algorithm and constant race issues with the platform tends to spread mostly whitewashed, heteronormative, elitist, consumerist, and visually appealing images or videos of witchcraft. They tend to, I can't, what is the term that they use? They use it on TikTok, shadow ban, is that right?
00:36:46
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So they tend to shadow ban accounts of people of color or indigenous people while pushing the regular white, pretty aesthetically looking accounts onto your For You page.
00:37:04
Speaker
And there was a whole trend, I don't know if you saw it, but it was like, show me your crystal collection and like stitch my video. And basically, it's a bunch of white people showing off thousands of dollar crystals. And they're just like being pushed into everybody's for you page, while other practitioners of color are being pushed down and not being seen, they're losing views, they're
00:37:31
Speaker
losing followers because of it. Yeah. TikTok is a mess. It really is a mess. And it's like you're saying, it's promoting this, just this aesthetic instead of the practice. And because it's become trendy right now to be a witch and to be a part of this community, we have to be careful with what content we're consuming and where our money goes. Just search the witch talk handle or
00:37:58
Speaker
phrase or whatever that we could do an entire episode. Oh my God. We really could. Oh, it is. It can be so toxic. I'm not saying there's not great information on there, but at the same time, like if you just search that, if you just search, which what you're going to see 90% of the videos that you will see come up are going to be white women or men.
00:38:23
Speaker
I'm not going to sit here and discriminate here, but they're going to be white people and they're going to be just trying to push you to buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, because well, your setup doesn't look as nice and aesthetic and pleasing as this one. It's causing you to move from the actual core values of witchcraft, which is connected to the earth because you're spending all this money on just consuming whatever it is that people are recommending because it goes back to the aesthetic.
00:38:51
Speaker
It goes back to what we said earlier in the episode that it is rooted in capitalism. So there's a lot of items in witchcraft that have been used in cultural appropriation. One of the main ones that we mentioned earlier
00:39:06
Speaker
is smudging. Many cultures use smoke cleansing and Native Americans use white sage and palisanto as part of their traditional ritual cultural practice. Right. And they call it smudging. If you are a white, you're a white prick. If you are not of the Native American culture, you
00:39:30
Speaker
cannot use the term smudging the term smudging refers to a specific ritual that is sacred to Native Americans, and because of this, the term is not okay to use by people who are not of that culture. Another one that has another thing that has been appropriated is black salt which is mixing salt.
00:39:49
Speaker
with ash and that stems from who do beliefs. And from what I've read on that, because I've seen, and I see it a lot on Tik TOK people using or making black salt from what I've read about it. And I could be wrong. That is a closed practice as part of a closed practice. So this
00:40:08
Speaker
particular item I left completely out of my notes, because in the research that I came across on black salt, there wasn't, it was all gray, right? It wasn't like black and white. It was like, well, this particular black salt comes from there, but there's different types of black salt.
00:40:25
Speaker
And I didn't understand it enough because I couldn't find anything that was like definitive, like, yes, you can, or no, you can't, or yes, it is closed or no, it's open. Like every article said the opposite. So definitely if you're using black salt in your practice, make sure that you're doing your research and understanding whether or not this is part of a closed practice because we couldn't find definitive proof.
00:40:48
Speaker
if it is or is not part of a closed practice. And if it is, then don't use it. If you're not, that brings it back to like, why I told you like, I struggle so much with this topic because it's a lot of times there is conflicting information. So if you try to look something up to see, you know, am I appropriating? If I do this thing, one article will tell you, absolutely you are. And then the next article will be like, well, only if you do this or
00:41:17
Speaker
It's not if you do it this way kind of thing. So just make sure you're doing your research. Make sure you understand what you're doing before you do it. And another one that it's really just a term that has been appropriated and then the meaning has changed because of the appropriation.
00:41:34
Speaker
but it's used constantly, not even just in witchcraft and paganist beliefs, but it's used everywhere. Everybody talks about this karma and they say it wrong. Most people don't know with the actual definition of karma or what, what it actually means. And so people believe that it is what goes around and comes around. And I've heard it, people talk about it, how like whatever you do comes back times three.
00:42:02
Speaker
However, the Hinduism belief is actually more complicated than that. And it involves a buildup of either good or bad karma in your life that you take into your next life. So it involves reincarnation. And so, I mean, if you're gonna use the word, at least try to use it correctly is all I'm saying. Because how a lot of people use that word, it's not correct.
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah, I thought you were going to say spirit animal because that's another one that the everyday average person will be like, this is my spirit animal, but they don't really know like.
00:42:40
Speaker
what a spirit animal is. Right. Yeah. I don't like the deep rooted like culture attachment for indigenous people to spirit animals. Exactly. Yeah. So if you are not native American, you do not have a spirit animal. Yeah. They have a Patronus. Um, you may have a familiar if you are a witch and you have a familiar, but you do not have a spirit animal that is completely explicitly to the native American indigenous cultures. And you could not be used outside of that culture.
00:43:10
Speaker
And I know personally, I know I will admit I've been guilty of using that term before I knew like really what it meant to a culture, you know, it's just because it's a common term that a lot of people use. They'll say, you know, whatever, whatever like popular thing, person, animal, whatever at the moment, they'll be like, this is my spirit animal. Right. Exactly. And I've, I know I've used that as well. And I think all you can do is learn.
00:43:37
Speaker
and grow from that because it doesn't make you a bad person if you didn't know. I mean, you didn't know. A good example too. One of mine and my husband's favorite bands like out there, they used to be called Spirit Animal. And then they found out like they didn't realize, you know, what it was or whatever. They were just like, we're Spirit Animal.
00:43:57
Speaker
And then when they found out like what a spirit animal was and the like cultural ties to it, they actually changed their name to record heat and they came out and they spoke about how like, you know, we called ourselves that not knowing but that's cultural appropriation and it's not okay to do that.
00:44:14
Speaker
They did this whole live video on Instagram and everything. They're a fantastic band. That's amazing. I have their merch too. Anthony has a hat that says Spirit Animal. I have a shirt that says it from when they were Spirit Animal, but they are now Record Heat.
00:44:30
Speaker
wow wow yeah amazing so if you don't know this band go check them out because that is amazing because there's so many people out there who whenever they find out that they've you know they're doing something wrong maybe you know this is something they were ignorant to that they they are now learning about they will not come out and say you know i was wrong no they're just like oh well
00:44:52
Speaker
Yeah. What is it? Right. The fact that this band is understands that that was not okay. Yeah. And I mean, that's just amazing. Yeah. No, they're a fantastic band. I think everyone should listen to them. We love them. Yes. So, um, as we end and kind of wrap up this episode, we thought it would be good to include ways that you can practice without appropriation or participating in exploitation of any other cultures.
Ethical Sourcing in Witchcraft
00:45:21
Speaker
So one of the things that I did wanna mention is crystals. Crystals are used for energy exchanges. And currently there's over-harvesting of crystals in Myanmar and it's becoming the new blood diamond. Now, whenever you're going to buy your crystals, there's a ton of crystals that don't originate out of Myanmar. And there are many different places that you can search for and find ethically mined crystals.
00:45:49
Speaker
And there's a lot of great foraging options for crystals and i'm a firm believer in building your altar with things that are important to you, so if you are an altar person you don't have to go online and spend a ton of money on crystals you can forge for things like i'll share pictures of.
00:46:08
Speaker
My altar and we're also have an episode in the future on altar set up and different things like that. But many of the objects that I have on my altar are things that I found while out on walks with my family. So for instance, like sticks and rocks.
00:46:23
Speaker
that I felt tied to, to represent the earth, seashells, to represent water, et cetera. You don't have to spend a ton of money on crystals. You can find things on walks or if you go on vacation and you're out on a beach and you're like, Oh dang, this seashell looks pretty cool.
00:46:39
Speaker
Pick it up. Those are all great things that you can use without participating. Spending a bajillion dollars or participating in the exploitation of an entire people. To that note, I would just say it drives my husband crazy every time we go somewhere and we go hiking or walking and I'm like, ooh, this pretty rock. He's like, please leave it. Yes, literally. And I'm like, I love this rock and it's coming home with me. Exactly. It's literally that TikTok sound.
00:47:09
Speaker
you're coming home with me and I'm just like shoving them in my pockets. I do the same thing and every time we go on trips I will always like pick up rocks if I like them and then I'll go say if we're at the airport or something I'm like emptying my pockets and I'm just like
00:47:27
Speaker
oh there's a couple of rocks in here or I'll go to pull a jacket or a sweater or something out of the closet and I put my hands in the pockets there's rocks in here like there's rocks in like all of my jackets just from being on vacation with my family in different places and finding a rock that I really liked and I just had to take home with me. My friend Julia is the same way and
00:47:49
Speaker
I don't know if you saw my post, I had tagged her in it being like, oh, girl's trip. There's a place in Montana and it's like a river or a lake or something, but it's just all these beautiful, colorful stones inside of this river. And I was like, we should take a girl's trip here, even though, cause we do like haunted spooky trips together. I was like, even though it's not like a haunted spooky place, look at all the rocks and Anthony and Robert were both like,
00:48:12
Speaker
No. And I was like, oh, she was like, I'm going to bring a separate bag just for my rocks and check my luggage. And I was like, I'm going to buy my rocks their own seat on the plane. And like, we just got escalating and escalating to the point that we were like taking both of their trucks, pulling U-Haul trailers to bring home all of our rocks just to annoy them. But yes.
00:48:32
Speaker
But for real though, we're not joking, right? But also I'm bringing home rocks. Yes, that sounds amazing. I am a hundred percent, I'm 10 toes down from this trip. So it needs to happen because I'm tagging along. Okay.
00:48:48
Speaker
So, back to different ways to change up your practice, to avoid appropriation or exploitation. Are you wanting to smoke cleanse in your practice, but you're not Native American? Purchase your white sage, as we mentioned earlier in the episode, from a Native American shop. Do not buy your sage from companies that exploit this natural resource.
00:49:10
Speaker
You don't know if a company is reputable. I'll give you a hint. It's not Walmart. It's not going to be Sephora. It's not going to be five and below. It's not going to be any big brand stores. It's going to be someplace that is owned by an indigenous person. And I was going to say to that, like, even if you're buying it from like a metaphysical or witchy shop, um, I recently.
00:49:37
Speaker
purchased some White Sage and Palo Santo incense and was told by the shop owner that it was purchased from a Native American company. And I looked, I was like, I wonder if I can, you know, order this directly from them, kind of cut out the middleman, looked it up online and it came from India.
00:49:55
Speaker
Oh, great. Yeah. So it was it wasn't from a Native American company. She didn't purchase it from an Native American company. She ordered it online probably. But now I have like I bought a bunch of it because it was one of our favorites. Like we liked the smell of it. We were like, let's just buy a bunch of it and stock up. That way we don't, you know, if we don't make it back over here and we run out, that way we have it for a while. So now I have a bunch of this. Luckily, it wasn't very expensive, but
00:50:22
Speaker
The money did not go to indigenous people. It went to India. That is really frustrating. Oh my God. I was a little upset about that one. So native soul.
00:50:37
Speaker
just for future reference, is not actually from indigenous people. Even though it's packaged very well like it is, they tie feathers around the incense, everything. It's very appealing to look at, pleasing, it's beautifully packaged. It definitely looked like it came from an indigenous company or peoples, but it did not.
00:51:03
Speaker
Oh gosh, that's really frustrating. And I feel like too, as a shop owner, no shade, but you should know who you're buying from as well. Because when you don't know you're perpetuating the problem, definitely do your research. I'm sure there's a lot of people too. Like, I mean, I don't want to recommend Etsy because I know there's a lot of shady shit that goes on with Etsy, but definitely look for places in your local community where you can purchase ethically because
00:51:33
Speaker
But here's another thing too. You don't have to use sage. Like you don't have to use white sage. And, you know, Tiffany, you mentioned this earlier, but you can use rosemary. You can use cedar bundles. You can use garden sage or black sage, which I didn't know black sage was a type of sage. So I did not know those as well. Yeah.
00:51:54
Speaker
Um, you can also see her like, yeah. Warm. There's so many options. You can even use incense. Like Frankincense is a really good one for cleansing. A lot of these different, you know, like I mentioned the black sage, the garden sage, warm wood, rosemary, or Cedar, Cedar bundles. Many of these things you can find naturally growing in the wild. So whether that be.
00:52:18
Speaker
if you're going on a walk. Don't touch something that could be poisonous. Don't try and confuse anything with like stinging nettle or poison ivy or anything like that. Also don't take from your neighbor's yard without permission. Without permission, yes. We keep a lavender bush out front. You could do lavender bundles too. Ooh, I love lavender. Yeah, there was a shop that we went to
00:52:44
Speaker
I think when we were in Arizona, it was either Arizona or California, but that was like a big portion of their smoke cleanse shelves for lavender bundles and they would like put different flowers on them and stuff. You're really pretty but oh wow yeah I love lavender. I didn't know that so I'm gonna have to try that so we have in our front yard we have our front garden garden.
00:53:05
Speaker
We have a, we have English lavender that grows in our front garden. And I mean, right now it's just completely dead because it's February in England, but whenever it blooms, I'm totally going to harvest some of that and use it to cleanse because I did not know that you could do that. I just harvest it anyway and just like put it sporadically through my house because it smells so good. Yeah, they use the actual like stick
00:53:32
Speaker
portion with the little leaves and then they'll tie like little flowers in the front of it, the ones that I came across. They are really pretty and they smell amazing when you burn them. Oh yes, I'm definitely doing that. Yeah.
00:53:47
Speaker
But yeah, and then just lastly, another great thing that you can do if you're wanting to practice without appropriation and just give back to communities of color is give back to the witches of color who you've learned from.
Supporting Witches of Color and Responsible Learning
00:54:01
Speaker
So even if you can't financially buy from their shops or donate money for like readings or anything like that, you can give shout outs or mentions if you've learned something from them or say, if you come across
00:54:15
Speaker
a practitioner on witch talk and you really love their spell or their protection charm or whatever it is that they have, share it with people, give them a shout out, give them a mention. Um, that goes a long way and it helps those voices to be heard, especially when there's all this work to be, that's been done to keep their voices suppressed.
00:54:36
Speaker
The least we can do is try and give credit where credit is due. Put their voices out there. So just remember, just because it's something that you're interested in, it doesn't mean it's for you. Make sure you do your research. Make sure you know where you're buying your items from.
00:54:52
Speaker
Um, and then make sure you're not doing something that's a closed practice. If it was not, uh, you weren't given permission for those things. If you are listening to this and you're like, Oh my God, you know, I'm doing everything wrong because I buy my stage from Amazon because it's cheap and, and this is all I can afford right now. Just know like.
00:55:12
Speaker
All we can do is learn from mistakes that we made. Yeah. And we've all been there at some point. Like, I mean, I just, the example of, I bought something I thought was going to an Indigenous person and instead it was, you know, made in India and not by Native Americans. Exactly. Yeah. And there are so many different alternatives, like we've mentioned for like, especially White Sage, because I feel like that is a huge one in the Wicci communities because even here, like,
00:55:42
Speaker
In England, there isn't a lot, or at least near me, there is not a lot of metaphysical or cultist shops, but the ones that are here, it's pretty obvious that they buy a lot of their supply on Amazon unless, like, I mean, sometimes they'll have, um,
00:55:57
Speaker
like local businesses where make something and they'll sell that in their stores as well. But most of their stuff comes from Amazon. And it's really obvious that it comes from Amazon just the way that it's packaged. And obviously there's not, I don't even think there's White Sage in England. Like I think that
00:56:15
Speaker
So that doesn't grow naturally. And if you're in a place where you don't have a connection to a Native American culture, or I mean, I'm sorry, an indigenous culture, or anything like that, definitely look at other alternatives that grows naturally in your area. You saw instead.
00:56:32
Speaker
Or I mean, you could even do I have indoor sage that I grow year round. Yeah, it's we've actually have renamed it to rage. Because we planted rosemary. It was like a plant or you know, two sides and we planted one in each one and somehow they merged together. The rosemary never popped up until like a month ago. And now they're growing as one plant. That's amazing. We have a rosemary sage and we just call him our rage.
00:57:00
Speaker
That's amazing. Yeah. You can grow it inside yourself. We have a Sage plan as well. It's not doing too high. I don't know. Might need your help. It's not the right time of year. Okay. He's pretty barren. So when it gets warm, Sage does a lot better.
00:57:15
Speaker
Okay, good. Cause I'm just like, I don't know how to make you do any better than what you're doing. And you're kind of looking a little bit depressed there in the window, sir. Don't over water them and make sure he has plenty of sun. Okay. Perfect. Well, I'm doing okay then just needs to get warmer so he can, he can thrive and live his best life in my window sill.
00:57:37
Speaker
I think that pretty much covers it. I'm sure there's a lot more that can be said on this topic. And I think it's like we'd mentioned before, it is kind of a heavy topic, especially considering when it comes to witchcraft and when it comes to paganism, because there's not a lot of documented history, there is a lot of borrowing and in the past when it comes to, um, differing beliefs and beliefs that fall outside.
00:58:02
Speaker
Christianity, a lot of people, they don't take us seriously. And so it's hard to establish that legitimacy if people don't take you seriously. And so you want to have that background, like you're saying, you want to have that history and
00:58:17
Speaker
Unfortunately, because there isn't a lot that's been written down historically, we borrow from other cultures and it's just held it together. And I think that can be great, but at the same time, we still have to make sure that we're not doing something that continues the oppression of other cultures.
00:58:34
Speaker
And yeah, and if somebody from a different culture or a person of color tells you that their culture or that part of their culture should not be shared with anyone, they have the right to say it. You don't have a right to contest it. Exactly. You don't have a right to contest it and you don't have a right to appropriate it because it's not your culture. Yeah. I think that's about it. It's everything I have. All right.
00:59:00
Speaker
I mean, obviously there is so much more that could be talked about in this topic, but I'm the expert. Exactly.
00:59:10
Speaker
I am not the expert either. Like I had mentioned before, I am white and unseasoned. So. Yeah. Yeah. And until we started doing this research, I still was very confused about what was appropriation. What is appreciation? What is cultural blending? You know, cultural transfer. I came across all of these topics and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is overwhelming. It is overwhelming. But I learned a lot.
00:59:34
Speaker
Same. Yeah. And I hope that everybody else does too. And I hope it doesn't sound like we're just like preaching and we're saying that we're better than everybody else. And we don't. I am not. Yeah. Same. I am learning just like everybody else. Exactly. And all we can do is learn and do better and be better. And this is us learning. And this helps everyone be better. Exactly. Yeah. Including myself.
00:59:59
Speaker
We're always willing to learn and be better people. We be better versions of ourselves, so that's what we're going for.
01:00:15
Speaker
That's it for this episode of Get in Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft. You can find our source material for this episode linked in the show notes. If you love this episode, we would be forever thankful if you leave us a five-star review on wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you really love the show and want more Get in Loser content, check out our Supercast link provided in the show notes or search the Supercast website for Get in Loser, We're Doing Witchcraft.
01:00:39
Speaker
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Conclusion and Future Topics on Mundane Magic
01:00:53
Speaker
You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Get In Witches, or email us at we'redoingwitchcraft at gmail.com. Check us out next week where we will sit down and explore mundane magic. Until then, blessed be witches.