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Superman: Red Son
151 Plays3 years ago
It's capitalism-smashing time! Perry and Stacy Dooks of the Fanboy Power Hour podcast embrace their inner communists for the animated adaptation of Superman: Red Son. We also discuss Mark Millar, the mistakes people make in understanding the Superman/Batman relationship, and other assorted diversions.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction and Audible Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey, fellow superhero cenophiles. Did you know that almost 30% of adults say they haven't read a book in the past year? Primary reason why is a lack of time. Well, Audible's here to help with the gift of found time. Thanks to Audible, you can listen to audiobooks like Marvel Comics, The Untold Story, or Slugfest inside the epic 50-year battle between Marvel and DC.
00:00:19
Speaker
Read up on the history of superheroes in comics and movies with Grant Morrison's Supergods. You can also check out Vanguard, my original superhero novel series, or try The Vrilagenda or The Adventures of Fortune McCall, both of which were written by our duly departed host emeritus, Derek Ferguson.
00:00:35
Speaker
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00:00:59
Speaker
All you have to do is go to audibletrial.com slash SuperCinemapod and with your free trial you get one free audiobook and two free Audible Originals. In fact, you get to keep those titles even if you cancel before the trial is over. So what are you waiting for? Head on over to audibletrial.com slash SuperCinemapod and start your free trial today.
Dramatic Reading with Stalin Dialogue
00:01:32
Speaker
Millions of people dead. Explain that to me, Premier Stalin. Help me to understand how... why... you could do this. I tried to protect you, my son. To keep you... untainted by the grim realities of governance. I asked you why.
00:02:00
Speaker
Because as much as it breaks my heart, it is necessary. How could such atrocities be necessary? What do you call atrocities? I call terrible necessities. For our vision of a better world to succeed, we must weed out the insurgents. The weak, the ones whose minds have been poisoned against this state. They're human beings.
00:02:30
Speaker
You're like a blind kitten, comrade. So good, so pure. But you just can't see. You must understand. You must believe that everything I've done has been for the ultimate good of the people and the welfare of the Soviet state. The state's welfare are your welfare. They're one and the same.
00:02:58
Speaker
We need to close the gap between our highest communist ideals and the cruel reality I saw today. Then I urge you to try. But you'll quickly find that the only way to achieve that goal is to follow my example. The unpleasant truth, my son, is that certain people must die in order for the system to work. Wise words.
00:03:54
Speaker
What now? Now? Now I save the world.
Introduction of Co-host Stacy Duke
00:04:10
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And I've got a new co-host today, listener of the show, guy I've known for a number of years. Don't even wanna think about how many. But that's Stacy Duke. Stacy, how are you doing today? Hey, hey, I'm doing pretty well. And very stoked to talk about the subject of today's show. Yeah, well, before we jump into that, why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself?
00:04:36
Speaker
Oh, Hey, uh, hi everybody. My name is Stacey Dukes. I am a writer of both fiction and nonfiction. Right now you can find a lot of my work on looper.com where I write various and sundry articles about pop culture and various television genre projects, movies, film, that sort of thing. Uh, I have co-hosted my own podcast, the fanboy power hour with my brother since about 2011. So that's been, that's been a wild ride.
00:05:04
Speaker
And yeah, I'm a developed pop culture, junky, loud mouth, which made me perfect, perfect, someone perfect for Harry to tap to come in and talk about stuff like that. So yeah, yeah, I'm very happy to be on the show.
00:05:18
Speaker
I've loved it since the first episode and I'm so grateful to be on the show now. Well, glad to have you on. Before we talk about stuff, every now and then we'd like to talk about a little bit of news.
Discussion on The Eternals Movie Trailer
00:05:30
Speaker
Anything, especially because you host a podcast for yourself, anything recently that you've noticed in the news?
00:05:36
Speaker
I mean, nothing really news wise. I mean, with the release of the final trailer for The Eternals, I'm very intrigued by that movie. The thing that really, the through line that had me and my brother initially a little thrown was like the whole notion of like,
00:05:53
Speaker
They're pulling a Highlander where they've moved silently down through the centuries. And you're like, well, if there's a bunch of super powered beings, it's kind of a greater exploration of when Cap went back in time to go see Peggy. You're like, well, shouldn't he have like made a list of things to stop along the way? Like JFK's assassination, Martin Luther King, you know, oh, dealing with Hydra and nipping that in the bud. So just having this notion of these eternal beings, pun intended,
00:06:20
Speaker
living through history and not doing anything about problems. We were like, so they're gonna be assholes basically. But they've kind of like, I think maybe the director, maybe the marketing team have been like, oh, we better add that line about how they were forbidden to interfere unless the deviants were involved. So we are getting confirmation that deviants are involved. And for God's sake, I mean, I have been banging the drum for more Kirby influenced stuff.
00:06:49
Speaker
for ages. So when I got to see a celestial on screen for the first time, well we've had like a brief blink and you miss it. It's on a TV monitor in the background of Guardians of the Galaxy, but an actual gigantic celestial. I am so stoked for that. So were you a fan of the Eternals comics then?
00:07:08
Speaker
Well, I got the first issue as part of one of those grab
Jack Kirby's Influence on Comics
00:07:12
Speaker
bags back in the day, you know, at certain supermarkets and stores, they give you like a little Mylar bag full of different comics. My parents would buy them because, you know, they were folks back in the day and they wanted to encourage my brother and I to feed. So I actually read the first issue of The Eternals. I think it was like seven or eight years old. And I didn't, you know, it's a lot of those like cherries to the gods ideas sale completely over my little young head, but that Kirby, those Kirby visuals,
00:07:37
Speaker
They stick with me. I am a diehard Kirby man to the bone. I cut my teeth on the old superpowers comic that he did back in the daytime to the action figures. Yeah, I just love his enthusiasm and his ideas. I think one of the greatest metaphors for Kirby's stance on this kind of stuff was
00:07:58
Speaker
Lovecraft believed that these ancient elder beings were horrible and fell, and they would destroy everything. They looked upon us as ants, and we were insignificant in the grander scheme of things. Kirby was like, these beings are grand and epic and amazing, and I love them so much. And it's just his enthusiasm for that material literally crackles off the page, so. Yeah, absolutely love them. Yeah, Eternals is interesting, because it's probably the
00:08:25
Speaker
the only Marvel property that I have like zero familiarity with. The only real exception is like Cersei when she was on the Avengers. And that's like her and also Gilgamesh, the brief time when he was on the Avengers. That's like the extent of my Eternals knowledge. Basically, yeah. I mean, you have to figure that
00:08:45
Speaker
Eternals and I think in humans were two of Kirby's like field experiments as he was cobbling together what eventually would become the fourth world because he's running through various prototype stages. He's like Tony Stark in Iron Man. He's like building different new suits and trying to configure this mythology. And then he finally hit that third bowl of porridge with the fourth world. That's his big magnum opus.
00:09:08
Speaker
Um, the, the eternals are an interesting concept. And like with Kirby, a lot of his concepts are great and have been, you know, I mean, for God's sake, you know, this is no shade, but, uh, an entire mega corporation is currently making that a cornerstone of their bread and butter. Right. Two of them in fact. Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of that going around. So, so yeah, it's, it's one of those like, uh, it's a,
00:09:33
Speaker
It's easy to watch the DNA, the through line, the evolutionary cycle as it builds up to eventually become, you know, Jack Kirby's fourth world and the new gods, which I am still very much looking forward to. So I think Ava is going to kick much ass with that.
00:09:50
Speaker
Yeah, that'll be interesting. Because I'm one of those people that the new gods and the fourth world stuff, it never really interested me that much. I mean, I like Darkseid and the different times he's popped up. And I liked, what was it, Tom King's Mr. Miracle series from a few years back. But other than that, I just never really, I don't know, the whole, the cosmic stuff in general, I've never really grabbed me that much. It's difficult because unfortunately, I think that
00:10:20
Speaker
you know, Stan and Jack hit the sweet spot with a fantastic four where they kept things just grounded enough. And then they let you into the crazy cosmic shit. And unfortunately, I think Kirby was so enthusiastic about just diving into all the cosmic shit. He didn't realize you needed something to kind of
00:10:37
Speaker
bring it down and ground it. And as a result, I think a lot of his ideas just, they just, they are literally stamped eating over one another to get to the reader and people can get a little lost in that. But if you take your, you know, I've read a couple of the omnibuses and you know, it's definitely, you know, it's not what you quite want it to be, but there's enough in there that you see when like Simonson does Orion or, you know, there's some amazing stuff like Paul Levitz. I mean, for God's sake, the great darkness saga.
00:11:06
Speaker
Oh my God, that is, oh, you want to talk about 1986 87 I'm reading that as a little kid. That revelation came out of nowhere. I think the only
00:11:17
Speaker
The only thing that really bugs me is that modern trade paperbacks give away the game. Like he's literally on the cover. I'm like, oh, you got to keep that quiet. Like it's such a great thing. I mean, I mean, now Google exists. So cats out of the bag for so many things, but, but back in the day, that, that revelation, when Manel recognizes who that person is, that first, in that first issue, and we don't find out until later,
00:11:42
Speaker
one of the best mind blowing moments of all time. Absolutely. So for my part, like I didn't really find any, I didn't really see anything newsworthy that much, but I did watch Shang-Chi.
Review of Shang-Chi and Anticipation for Disney Plus Release
00:11:56
Speaker
And I loved, as someone who absolutely hated what happened in Iron Man 3, like I thought that was just a brilliant recovery that what Marvel did.
00:12:08
Speaker
Absolutely. I did respect what they did. And I understood why they did it in Iron Man 3. Because that, you know, the Mandarin as a character is fraught with peril. Yeah. And as an Iron Man villain, he just doesn't really
00:12:25
Speaker
There's no real gel to him. We've just had him in those comics for so long that we just assume that he is Iron Man's arch villain. But really, I think you could argue the case that Obadiah Stane is really more Iron Man's dark mirror. Or maybe Justin Hammer. Justin Hammer, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. The thing about Tony is Tony doesn't need an arch nemesis. Tony is his own arch nemesis. So I think we've seen about 22 movies where the recurring through line is, damn it, Tony. Yeah. Just damn it, man.
00:12:55
Speaker
You just just you just want to take him aside and put your arm around his shoulders just like look buddy buddy buddy come on he's gotta you gotta think about therapy just think about that's all I'm asking like but yeah he's yeah I can understand why they did it with Trevor
00:13:11
Speaker
And yeah, Trevor was amazing. I mean, it's Ben Kingsley for God's sake. So of course I was going to love him. And then when they did that DVD extra, I forget. Oh, All Hail the King. All Hail the King. Which is now available standalone on Disney Plus. Sweet. I will definitely check that out. I've been meaning to watch Shang-Chi, but a thing has happened. So going to the movie theaters these days is kind of like a game of chess. Yeah, yeah. But I do feel that
00:13:38
Speaker
Cause literally my brother and I, we watched Suicide Squad and we watched Candyman. And if we just waited another week, I'm looking at my own demand and they're just on there right now. So I was like, well, if I just wait another week,
00:13:50
Speaker
I'll probably get Shang-Chi on there. It's coming out. It's got a 45 day theatrical release window. So after that, it's going straight to Disney Plus. Sweet. I am definitely planning on checking it out because that trailer was just like, okay, where do I sign? How do I get on board here? Absolutely. Just tell me when you want me to put the money. Stop giving you the money because if that drag, no, I don't want you to score.
00:14:16
Speaker
I'm not going to say anything. I won't say anything. I kind of want to know, but I kind of want to surprise myself. So I'm going to practice restraint for a change and not asking questions. But it looks cool. I can wait. Yeah. All right.
Praise for Warner Bros' Animated Films
00:14:30
Speaker
So today we're talking about the movie you picked was Superman Red Son, which is one of the Warner Brothers frustrates me because they're
00:14:45
Speaker
their animated stuff is so good, right? These animated movies like Superman, Red Son, The Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, Reign of the Superman, all of this stuff, and so many more is like New Frontier, Flashpoint Paradox. Even the lesser, the less popular ones like the New 52 inspired Justice League ones were still entertaining enough.
00:15:14
Speaker
But their live action stuff is just like such and it's like I wish they get the people who do these animated stuff to do some of the live action stuff or even get the people who do the CW stuff to do the live action stuff.
00:15:30
Speaker
And so we're talking about Superman and Red Son, which is, and DC has been doing this a bunch over the years where they take these graphic novels or these standalone stories and they do them and they make these animated adaptations. They did All-Star Superman, Dark Knight Returns we mentioned. Death of the Family. Death of the Family, yeah. Batman and Son and Son of Batman and so on and so forth.
00:16:00
Speaker
And so, and also they've done a bunch of the Elseworlds ones, like the Flashpoint Paradox, like Gotham by Gaslight, which was amazing. And also, you know, they're doing injustice soon. That's the new one they just had the trailer for. I just, I'm a, I'm a Smeagol golem on that one. I just, I feel like it's just going to be that Twitter thing that I saw a couple of weeks ago. It's like, Hey, kids are not going to remember back when Superman wasn't a villain.
00:16:27
Speaker
It's just like, hey, hey, look, I get it. But if anybody, if they're consulting the Tom Taylor comic, in Tom Taylor, I trust. And when I read that comic, like that first issue, I had the grumpy cat face on. But as I read more of it, I was like, oh, I see what he's getting at. That comic and Superior Spider-Man, those are the two books that I had the very negative fan reaction going into them.
00:16:56
Speaker
And, you know, I was the very grumpy, like, oh, this is shit. I'm never going to read this. And, you know, there was no way this could be good. And then I read, I'm like, oh, fuck, it actually is pretty good. It is very funny. And so after those two, I'm just like, you know what? I'm not going to say anything about a book or a movie until I've actually experienced it. Buy the ticket, take the ride. Then you can offer an opinion. You don't want to be like,
00:17:17
Speaker
you don't want to be like 98% of the internet where it's just knee jerk reaction. Exactly. Yeah. And that was one of them where, you know, it was it on the surface and those images that were floating around online, you know, when it first came out, it just, it looked like the worst possible thing you could do to Superman. And then you read it and you're actually like, God, this is actually a pretty good story. Yeah. Even the game had its moments where there's that one moment during the game where
00:17:44
Speaker
you know, Superman is talking to Lex and it's the president Superman, it's the evil Superman and they're contemplating the multiverse and he asks Lex in this like small voice, he's just like,
00:17:56
Speaker
Do you think there's a little universe out there where Lois is still alive? And you're just like, oh shit. And George Newberg crushed it. Especially when the real Superman shows back up and you're like, oh yeah, that's why he's the flagship character. I know a lot of people have forgotten that, but that whole sequence where he comes back and lays waste to everybody. I mean, look, I've got my quibbles with the Zack Snyder, Joss Whedon Justice League, but when in the original Joss Whedon cut, when Superman shows back up,
00:18:26
Speaker
I was like yeah yeah yeah that's why that's why that's why you see it that's why he's that's that's why. Yeah, we call the with all the flaws of weed and Justice League like I cannot bring myself to hate it completely because.
00:18:40
Speaker
Bad CGI lip aside, they got Superman right that time. They did get Superman right that time. Yes, yes, absolutely. That is the one where I'm like, if I was a teacher grading papers, I'd be like, yes, shows improvement. Please go along with this. You'll get that great job sticker soon. And that's why I couldn't, even though technically it's a better film and it's more consistent all the way through, that one reason is why I could not
00:19:07
Speaker
you know, make it put Snyder's Justice League above. I mean, it's just that. Yeah, it has its things. Like, I'm not trying to be one of those guys who's trying to yuck anybody's yum. My brother quite likes the Zack Snyder Justice League. And to be fair, I quite liked it too. Once I was like, okay, this is an else world. This is what we're in. These are things that are like they're taking different acts on these characters. I have to
00:19:30
Speaker
I have to accept that as the audience member, I don't have input. This is Zack Snyder's story. This is the story he wants to tell. And when I did that, I was able to have a much better time with him, where it's like, well, these are the decisions that I'd necessarily see for a given character, but I understand that it's his thing. And when I picked this, I was very conscious that I was like, I'm not gonna turn this into the roast Mark Mill.
00:19:54
Speaker
So I don't want to do that because there are elements of his stuff that I enjoy. His run on Superman Adventures is so good. And his run on Aztec the Ultimate Man with Morrison, quite, quite good. Again, I don't want it to feel like I'm trying to come at me, buddy. I think that the one thing, like, you know, I don't read the boys for similar reasons. I am a different audience cat. I probably won't get down with that material the same way that people who appreciate it do.
00:20:21
Speaker
But I do think that if Ennis Miller and I agree on anything, it's a love of Superman. And the love of Superman is very much in red sun. It could have been another deconstructionist take, and it does have some through lines of that. But I think that at the same time, it is still a very loving kind of what if, else world for
Exploration of Superman Red Son's Themes
00:20:44
Speaker
Superman. And I think it's a wonderful,
00:20:57
Speaker
it's far more complex than I actually expected it to be. Because on the surface, it looks like it's just, and Ennis is a far more complex writer than I think a lot of people give credit for. But you see something like The Boys, and Ennis has an obvious distaste for superheroes. You definitely saw that in his
00:21:09
Speaker
piece of fiction for that.
00:21:20
Speaker
right before he did Punisher Max, whenever he had Marvel Heroes guest star in his Punisher run, there was a obvious disdain for those characters, but with the exception of Daredevil, I think.
00:21:31
Speaker
You have a little bit more appreciation of Daredevil. Yeah, but but like his his Punisher Mac stuff was, you know, it was amazingly layered. And his the boys to really, really smart deconstruction of superhero concepts and not outright
00:21:53
Speaker
condemning not outright like saying like, you know, all superheroes are bad, but it's it's really interesting. And I was really surprised by it. And you get some of that in the series, but it's you go into the you go into the comic and it is it's far more deep than I that it had any right to be.
00:22:08
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. I've enjoyed a lot of Ennis' stuff. I find that we grok. We have similar feelings on Westerns. We have similar feelings on like Streets of Glory is really great. His work on Bloody Mary is great. Justin Pilgrim is fantastic. Preacher. Preacher, absolutely. Even when he's doing licensed properties that you think he would take the deconstructionist piss on, like with his Dan Dare, like he is so respectful of the source material. He's nuts. Like I have no,
00:22:37
Speaker
Yeah, like I would argue, I think it's hit man number 37. I forget of the I sing is the story where, you know, Tommy Mahonigan, the eponymous hit man, meet Superman on a rooftop. And it's just like the respect for the character and it was written in memory of Archie Goodwin. It's one of my favorite depictions of Superman.
00:22:57
Speaker
out there where he, you know, talks about his doubts and, you know, Tommy's like, you're the best thing about this country and you don't even know it. Like you're here, you're from Planet Krypton or whatever, but you're like, how can I help? Like, it's just, this is one of the greatest monologues in comics and it comes from a guy who buy that same token, his stuff when Green Lantern shows up in the book, it's just like,
00:23:17
Speaker
Wow. Okay, okay, Garth, I get you, I get you. But something you mentioned too, and about the whole idea of like the evil Superman, and I think one of the reasons that it's become easier to accept this kind of stuff now is because we've got such a good Superman in, Superman and Lois now. Yes, yes, yes, that, that... Tyler Oakland. Tyler Oakland, that nice Tyler Oakland young man.
00:23:44
Speaker
I quite, quite liked because he is, when I first was watching the pilot for Superman and Lois, I was like, ooh, desaturated colors. Ooh, very fair. I've seen this before. I've seen this visual shorthand before and I was like, I don't know. But he manages to consistently thread the through line of like, this Superman is legitimately a good,
00:24:06
Speaker
dude and he is legitimately someone who wants to help and and he's also something of a goober because you know that one scene he like saves the bridge and then was like oh shit I still have pain on my hand from the paint fight and like laughs at himself like that's that's great that's the kind of stuff that I like you know I mean a lot of people roll their eyes at like Superman saving cats from trees and stuff like that but that's the kind of
00:24:30
Speaker
That's the kind of like, that's my jam. Like when Superman is just a nice guy who just stops by to help out. Like, yeah, he can punch people and he can have the glowing red eyes of doom and silhouette or stuff like that. And that looks cool. I mean, that, that satisfies the Batman crowd. But at the end of the day, Superman is friendly. Like there's this great line in Tom Taylor's Nightwing where Superman comes to visit and you know, Dick is asking him for opinion on something. He's just like, you want an alien perspective? And he's like,
00:25:00
Speaker
Now I wanted to talk to the most human person I know. I was like, oh shit, no, Tom. Yes, yes, yes. There was, I think, and it was, it was actually, it was when Oakland first appeared in Supergirl, you know, all those years ago. And the, like one of the most quintessential Superman lines he has then is when, you know, they're, they're, you know, saving some stuff and then Supergirl turns to him and she's like, she's like, is there anything better than this? And you just kind of smile. He's like,
00:25:26
Speaker
if there is I haven't found and that that's superman right he it's not a burden for him to do this he likes doing this yeah and he likes helping people he's so up and bouncing he's just like you know if the gun didn't work why did you think the hitting was going to work yeah like he's just he's not even mad he's just like look I get why you're doing what you're doing but it's not going to work like just real fun like the energy on that show is really great and the family dynamic where I thought I knew where things were going and they actually
00:25:52
Speaker
They actually found a use for the kids. I love John and Jordan. I think they're great. I think season two where John should really start developing his own powers. I think that'd be pretty fun. Playing around with the mythology, like the twist with Captain Luthor was really great. I'm not trying to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it because I absolutely advocate going and watching it.
00:26:13
Speaker
And it's now on HBO Max. So if you've got HBO Max and you haven't seen it, go binge it over the weekend, because it is so good. Run, don't walk. I mean, for the longest time, The Flash was my favorite of the CW shows. But this, in one season, it just blew all of it out of the water. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:26:31
Speaker
love love love love all yeah so uh but let's talk about red sun now and mark miller because it's the elephant in the room mark miller and. My hope my co host on.
00:26:45
Speaker
for evolution where we talk about Morrison's X-Men in one of my co hosts Pat on that he talked about Mark Miller in one of the early episodes, and he said something I think really perfectly describes Miller he said he's like, every time I read Mark Miller's work I feel like he's flipping me the bird.
00:27:03
Speaker
Yeah, he certainly has a bit of a confrontational vibe. He, in his early days, when I was reading the Superman adventure stuff, he seemed to be very welcoming, seemed to want to, you know, come on in, we're having some fun. Here's like Livewire. And somewhere along the way, he,
00:27:21
Speaker
Like a lot of writers that I read, the best writers that I enjoy, it feels like with their fiction, you're sitting down to have a conversation with them. Like, you know, they're telling you the story across the table. Like it's never more vivid than when I'm rereading like my Robert E. Howard Conan stories or like vintage Stephen King. Like he's just there grabbing you like by the lapels and like, look man, you gotta listen. Cause here's this story that's really, really awesome. With Miller, it feels like he's kind of turned into Gallagher.
00:27:48
Speaker
Like he just wants to smash the watermelon in front of you and like give you, like he's very like in your face and confrontational. And you just kind of want to take him aside and just be like, bro, chill. I came to the door. Like I came to this party. I feel attacked. And I don't feel like, I feel like you're working something out here. Like I don't know what's going on, but God bless. Which is why I find that adapted Miller.
00:28:16
Speaker
is really more of my jam, because kick-ass. That's all you got to say. Or wanted to. Exactly. I remember a lot of people said they hated the movie. I love that movie. And then I read the book afterwards. I'm like, ooh, I'm going to stick with the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole thing was like,
00:28:37
Speaker
hit girl and her dad, big daddy, like you watch the Nicholas Cage performance, you're like, this is this is amazing. This is precisely the level that I want. You read the comic and you're like, oh, boy, I can see why Mr. Vaughn decided to not go with that ending because that would have been
00:28:58
Speaker
real dark. And we're trying to have an action comedy here. We can't. So I haven't read it. I haven't read the King S comic. I'm guessing now I probably shouldn't. I mean, look, I mean, yeah, you probably shouldn't. I can't even lie to you. I can't even lie to you. It is a tough sit. It's a tough sit. There were moments when I was reading it back when it was first coming out where I was like,
00:29:23
Speaker
Well, I'm this far and I have to, I have to see it through to the end, but by the end of it, I was like.
00:29:29
Speaker
Well, I think, and because you mentioned Superman Adventures and Aztec and some other stuff too. And I think that's what Miller needs is he needs like that, those constraints that are placed on him and like, you know, doing an all ages comic book or something like that. And, or Aztec where it's, you know, it's supposed to be a mainstream superhero. I mean, plus he was also, I think he was doing Superman Adventures with Morrison as well, wasn't he?
00:29:55
Speaker
I believe he might have been, or at least Tom Payer might have been. My memory is a little hazy. I have the collective traits that I've been meaning to reread. So I do remember he took over, I think Miller came on board in like the 20s or the 20s, 30s. But I do think that as a creator, look, I respect that he wants to tell these stories. He wants to tell these big, amazing stories that he kind of also wants them to be made into movies.
00:30:22
Speaker
Um, and I, I respect that. And I think he has kind of been kind of inching back towards making stuff. That's more general audiences like people. And like, I like that, um, that flash Gordon riff he did recently, I believe it's called starlight. If I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure I haven't heard him, but yeah, but he, he did kind of a story about a planetary romance hero. You're kind of Buck Rogers, a John Carter.
00:30:46
Speaker
And it was, you know, I think it was drawn by John Cassidy, if I'm not mistaken. So at least the art would be fucking phenomenal. Where it's this aging like space hero who goes on one last ride. And it's supposed to be pretty good. I've heard some good things. I was meaning to check into it, but again, it's like, whenever I look at a Mark Miller production, I'm like, are you going to, is this a Lucy football situation? Am I gonna end up flat on my back?
00:31:13
Speaker
looking up at the sky and like, look, again, I'm not trying to yuck anyone's yummy. It's just that he is a creator and I as an audience, we kind of want different things. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with you. And, you know, Mark Miller is one of those guys that when I was, you know, when I was in my teens and, you know, probably my, just, you know, buying everything that was on the shelves because I worked at a comic book store. I loved Miller's stuff back then, but, and, you know, the whole thing about like, you know,
00:31:41
Speaker
Captain America saying, you know, do you think this A stands for France and all that kind of stuff? Like when you're a teenage, when you're 16, that's funny. When you're like, when you're 37, you're like, really? Come on. That was, yeah. It's like when he took over the authority. Like he took over the reigns of the authority from Warren Ellis. And you're just like, holy shit. You want to talk about like following the Beatles. You want to talk about following Leonard McCartney. Like you got to admire his Hutzpah to come in there and try it.
00:32:11
Speaker
and do all these deconstructionist hot takes. But I think even back then I was kind of like, okay. He like, when, when Ellis would brush up against the deconstructionist vibe, he would use it in the interest of telling a more layered story. Like with the authority, it was about, well, what if superheroes weren't heroes, but more like superpowers. Like we take the superhero concept to the logical extension where they essentially
00:32:41
Speaker
rule the world. They rule it with a benign, distant hand, but let's be brutally honest, they took over the world. Like when they attacked Gamora, that's their opening statement of like, we're the authority, behave. We're going to kick your heads in. When you're young, you're like,
00:33:01
Speaker
Fuck, yeah, madam. But when you grow older, you're like, oh shit, yeah, that's a slippery slope. Yeah, yeah, it's actually not so, that's not so good, actually. Yeah, that incline is pretty sharp. And you're like, well, Jenny Sparks is badass when you're younger. When you're older, you're like, are you good? Mm-hmm, yes. Yeah, 100 years of like being immortal and dealing with the kind of shit that she's seen has probably made her a little PTSD, yeah. Yeah, to say the least.
00:33:29
Speaker
And so when I heard about Red Sun, like, because by the time, I think by the time Red Sun had come out, I had kind of gotten past my Miller love fest. So I wasn't really expecting much. And then I read it and it's really good. And I read it again, you know, a few years back when I got it on, I picked up on Comixology when it was on sale. And I reread it again, like maybe like two or three years ago.
00:33:56
Speaker
It's still good. I'm like, I thought I would hate it. I'm like, because after everything Miller has done since then, after my opinion on him has like done a complete 180, I expected to hate it. I expected, you know, I'm like, there's no way this is going to be as good as it was my first Reddit. I'm like, actually, no, it is still pretty good.
00:34:14
Speaker
It holds up reasonably well. There'll be some choices made in the adaptation that I tend to lean more towards, particularly when it comes to Diana, but we'll get to that. We'll get to that. But it does actually hold up reasonably well. The character that you see in Superman Red Son is still largely Superman. I mean, there are some zigs and zags taken over the course of it and we'll dig into it.
00:34:37
Speaker
But for the most part, he treats the premise completely seriously. There's no sense of him like turning to the camera and winking and being like, yeah, right, edgy, right. And, you know, you're just like, he just takes the material, treats it like it's other piece. And I think I remember,
00:34:55
Speaker
Uh, this is back in the day, back when I was surfing the internet and, um, went to a great website called Superman through the ages. And it's, I think it's still around. It's a wonderful website. And they were talking about how this was his riff on an annual. He remembered reading.
00:35:09
Speaker
when he was a kid, where the Superman rocket, so it was a, you know, imaginary story where the rocket crashes in the ocean. And so America and the Soviet Union are racing to get to this alien rocket to see what's in there. And the US gets there first, he's raised by the government there. But he was always like, well, I wonder what would have happened if, you know, baby Kal-El had been taken by the Soviets. And that was the genesis of his idea. Now, again, this is just me from my hazy filter. So take it with a grain of salt, besides with my
00:35:38
Speaker
You know, my can of bubbly right over here, but it was an interesting premise and the idea that...
00:35:44
Speaker
nature versus nurture and Superman growing up in the Soviet Union, you know, standing for truth, justice, and the Warsaw Pact. There's not a lot of discernible difference. No, yeah. And it's also funny, even when you compare it to because there have been a bunch of those types of stories where else world war, what if Superman landed here in Stadter? And one of the most one of the ones that stood out to me a lot was speeding bullets when he was found by by the Waynes and and
00:36:13
Speaker
and it becomes a very different kind of Batman. Yeah, yeah. But it's funny when you look at Red Son, like even growing up in the Soviet, he's much more Superman in Red Son than he is in Speeding Bullets.
00:36:28
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. In Speeding Bullets, he's very much Bruce, but Bruce with the Kryptonian power set. Yeah, and that doesn't have any qualms about killing people. No, not at all. The only thing that I look tangent within a tangent, but the only thing that I regret with Speeding Bullets is they didn't take it far enough. That cop-out ending, I'm just saying, look, again, it's a well put together book, would never disparage the creators,
00:36:57
Speaker
I also didn't like the merging of Luther and the Joker. I thought that was weird. Yeah. Yeah. Like they're two different flavors. Like Luther should not have been bothered with this until it interfered with his business interests. And the notion of the Joker just being this completely random entity. Like I hate, I hate when they tie the Joker to an origin. Like as he himself has said, if I have to have an origin, I prefer it to be multiple choice. Right.
00:37:23
Speaker
getting back to Superman Red Son. Yeah, once he's raised, but being raised in the communist heartland isn't all that different from being raised in the Kansas Heartland. So he still turns out to be a largely good dude with some darkness, which we're going to talk about in a bit. But, but yeah, but I think that was also Miller going like, well, you know, Doc Savage was a big influence on Superman. So let's explore some of that. So never look at the term. Oh, sorry.
00:37:53
Speaker
No, no, no, fine. I was just looking at the Wikipedia for the movie and it had gotten a response in Russian media, apparently. Oh, yeah. So the presenters of TV channel Russia 24, it was Alexei Kazakov and Anastasia Ivanova. They said that it was Russophobic hysteria and that
00:38:18
Speaker
In another program, Time Will Tell, it was called an element of an information war against Russia and Anatoly Kuzyshev said that comics are evil literature only.
00:38:33
Speaker
Well, I can't help but wonder if perhaps that's people above them like, might be leaning on them a little bit because to my way of thinking, the movie is fairly respectful of the Soviet Union. I was very surprised at how respectful it is of the Soviet Union.
Controversy and Reception of Superman Red Son in Russia
00:38:54
Speaker
Because that's one of the interesting things about it because
00:38:59
Speaker
And it's so hard to do. It's amazing that even DC allowed that to go through. I mean, hey, yeah. Cause back in the day, they were very, very much like, this is our side of the cold war. And yeah, you might get the occasional guest appearance from red star and team Titans, but don't get it twisted. Like we're all about the us of a around here. So, so, and even like in, you know, more modern types of tellings, it's still.
00:39:23
Speaker
you know, the Soviet Union is still portrayed as the evil empire, right? There's not a lot of sympathetic portrayals of it and with a lot of justifiable reasons for that, but also it is interesting to see this other take on it. And they don't, like it's not just, because sometimes I see this in leftist circles where there's an attempt to,
00:39:47
Speaker
to either, maybe not whitewashed, but not focused so much on the bad shit that the Soviet Union did.
00:39:54
Speaker
Sand off the rough edges. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But this one, you know, it talked like right in the beginning, it talks about the gulags. It has Superman going in there and liberating the gulags and confronting Stalin about it. And oh, he confronts him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They have a brief friendly chat and it's very brief. Yeah. I'm totally picking up what you're putting down. The thing about it is that
00:40:18
Speaker
they acknowledge that it's the system that's broken. Like communism itself isn't the evil enemy. It's the fact that Stalin at the top of the pecking order and his regime are the ones that are causing the problem. And they have very simple, like Lana is very sympathetic. Like she grew up in the same farming community. Like she's very much kind of like his moral chain. And when she dies, he realizes, oh shit, I can't just be their strongman.
00:40:48
Speaker
I literally have to take the wheel because this system is broken to shit. And of course, when he has his encounter with another character in that Gulag who's gonna feature real heavy in the second act, you're like, okay, okay, yeah. So you see the, and the conversation
00:41:08
Speaker
that he has with Lois on the rooftop, where each of them are arguing the respective points. And I'm just sitting there eating my popcorn like, look, neither of you are exactly wrong. Yeah, like, each of you are bringing thunder. And that's what's amazing is just like how layered it is and how complex a portrayal it is. And just like, and it's just like, the whole thing is like, what, like less than an hour and a half or so? Yeah.
00:41:32
Speaker
Kudos to JD, JD DiBiteus for writing the script. Like he wrote the script for this movie and he absolutely, J.M. DiBiteus knocked it out of the park. Yeah. He managed to find a way to not only honor the material that he had to adapt, but take it in interesting new directions where you're like, okay, all right, show me more of this. Yeah. Yeah. And, and just like the whole, the way the whole, cause this is, this is Derek and I talked about this when we talked about a watchman and
00:42:02
Speaker
how one of the great things about the original comic book is just how much the world changed with the introduction of just one superhero. And I think, and a lot of comic book stories, and for good reason, right, it has to stay true to the, it has to look mostly like our world, so you can't have superheroes
00:42:25
Speaker
changing the world as much as they really would in reality, which is probably the most fantastical aspect of a lot of these stories. Yeah, Reed Richards is useless. You would think that in the Marvel universe with Tony Stark, Reed Richards and Hank Pym running around, hunger is gone, energy concerns are gone.
00:42:43
Speaker
like world safety is assured. Our skin is clean, our crops are watered. Yeah, but everything has to be the world outside your window. You can't advance things forward because then it's not realistic. So stories like this are really interesting because it takes the reins off and it allows you to explore those options. And I think it is really cool how just the fact that
00:43:07
Speaker
Superman exists and is in Soviet Russia. It completely changed the Cold War.
Lex Luthor's Character Analysis in Superman Red Son
00:43:14
Speaker
I mean, here it's the US is the struggling impoverished nation that's putting all their effort into their military might. And the Soviet Union is like the beacon of hope for the world.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. With hope and prosperity after Superman takes over, it makes a concerted effort to make the Soviet Union an example to the rest of the world. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's pretty amazing to see the U.S. on the back foot and they get to the point where the existing capitalist regime structure is just like
00:43:53
Speaker
Yo, Lex, you've got to come up with some way to get rid of this guy because he's starting to show like the cracks in the system. And once once people put A and B together to get C, we're screwed. So yeah, and and Luther's role and it is very interesting where it's like, he doesn't hate Superman, per se. He just considers Superman to be an annoyance and kind of like
00:44:15
Speaker
It's a Rubik's Cube. He's trying to solve the problem of Superman. And so he just naturally presumes that everything will be fine once he takes over and just dismantles the system and makes it work for the United States and also the world. Yeah, the take on Luther is really interesting because like you said, he's not so much anti Superman is it's just like, you kind of get the sense that he wants to beat Superman just to see if he can.
00:44:43
Speaker
Yeah, this is a super, this is, yeah, this is a world where basically the age of the super humans doesn't start until Superman shows up and it's largely jump-started by the actions of Luthor. Luthor trying to solve the problem because he's the one who
00:44:56
Speaker
gives the Green Lantern Corps their rings. He's the one who comes up with the idea of superior man. He's playing this game of three dimensional chess with, with Kal-El. And it's, it's just a thing where it's like, it's nothing personal. Like he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't hate Superman. He's, he's, he's almost a worthwhile human being. He just has that thread of, he has a through line of like,
00:45:18
Speaker
we know you're Lex Luthor, we know you're greasy, and you're kind of an asshole. But there's still that threat of humanity, so much so that Lois gets with him and still can see the good in him despite the through line of him being kind of a megalomaniacal dick. So yeah. Okay, what are some of the things that really stood out to you about this adaptation?
Performance Highlights of Superman Red Son Cast
00:45:44
Speaker
the animation is quite, quite nice. Definitely has a, they're not quite shooting for the aesthetic of Batman, the animated series, but they are working on giving it kind of a timeless vibe, especially when he makes his debut in the fifties where they do that awesome newsreel footage and you see him like lifting the tank and doing all the classic like Superman bits, but he's doing it from the perspective of the Soviet Union. So it's a nice flip on
00:46:12
Speaker
the 1958 George Reeves series. The portrayal of Kal-El, played by Jason Isaacs, does a wonderful job with the role.
00:46:27
Speaker
His Russian accent is really fun. And it's kind of nice to see him do a hero turn for a change. Usually he plays all the sneering villains. If you need a sneering British villain, call Jason Isaacs. He's our two guys. So seeing him play Superman was quite, quite enjoyable. And his relationship with Diana when she enters the picture. And yeah, absolutely. I'm forgetting, I'm blanking on her name, but I think it is Vanessa Marshall who plays Diana in this. Absolutely. Yes, you're right, yeah.
00:46:57
Speaker
Absolutely breathtaking and amazing. She, she, when she reaches her moment where she's like, fuck this. You're all, you're all going to die. I don't care anymore. I have reached tilt and you understand why she's done it. And she just turns her back on the world of men and you're like, oh cow. Yeah. You, you, you, you biffed it boy. You fucked it up. Yeah. And yeah. And yeah, the treatment of her in this,
00:47:27
Speaker
movie is much better than the comic, where in the comic, she kind of follows Superman or Superman around like a doe eyed, you know, she's very much like she's got a huge crush on him. Like, huge crush. And in this they kind of flirt a little with a possibility of a romance but they're really more like
00:47:45
Speaker
They're friends who have this thing in common. And I think that Cal is more interested in the fact that, holy shit, there's somebody who can do the same things that I can do. The first time in my life I have a peer. And so, but there's things that she has that he doesn't. Like when she asks him his real name and he's just like, Superman. Like he doesn't know about his heritage. And I get the sensation that like they hinted his name
00:48:09
Speaker
when he's talking with Lana as a little kid, but they just completely blanked his identity once the Soviet government got a hold of him. You're Superman, and that's all you're ever going to be to us. You're just this propaganda tool. And so their relationship's really great. And of course, Russian Batman. Russian Batman is friggin' great. I mean, it doesn't make a lick of sense. Like, it is leaning. I do get the feeling that it is Miller leaning a little heavily on the whole, like,
00:48:36
Speaker
What if thing, what else world thing? Pretty hard that this series of events happens in the way it does. But in the animated adaptation, it is an interesting wrinkle. Whereas in the comic, it's a result of political assassination that leads this character down the path to becoming the Batman.
Critique of Batman vs Superman Narrative
00:48:52
Speaker
Right. Here, he's just a kid in the gulag who watched both his parents die, and he has one objective, and that is to fucking kill Superman.
00:49:01
Speaker
Which I think is I think there are some good I think that and also the the change they made with Wonder Woman. I think those are good changes they made for the movie because because in the comic book, you know, there is that thing where and just use her as a as a as an ally. But in but she's in love with him in the comic book. Oh, yes. Yes. And in this one, you know, she's she rebuffs him right from the start to let him know like, hey, look, I come from an island of women. Do the math. And I love figure that out. Yeah, figure that out. Yeah.
00:49:31
Speaker
Yeah, and and the whole bit with like their relationship as peers and also as leaders like he's the leader of the Soviet Union, she is the ambassador from her mother to man's world, they have this, they have this kind of almost Olympian like
00:49:47
Speaker
This is an unintended connection where they are, you know, outsiders but also trying to look out for humanity, which I thought was pretty cool. And, and yeah with with the Soviet Batman, like we have seen this dance so many times and I am so done with this trope like evil Superman is one thing.
00:50:07
Speaker
but Batman and Superman, wouldn't it be great if they fight fight is just something that makes me so tired. I have to go and lie down and take it like a 90 minute nap because it's just, it's so exhausting because everybody tends to forget like the whole bit. We're like, I don't trust this alien from the dark night returns. That's great because that is the development of a relationship and a friendship
00:50:35
Speaker
that has become so worn down in that universe, the dark knight returns Batman.
00:50:42
Speaker
Loves, loved Superman. He loved Clark. Clark was his brother. But Clark kept being a government stooge in that universe to the point where Bruce had to be like, look, if I don't take steps, like he's just gonna bulldoze over us all in the name of people who are higher up the rank than he is. He's putting his faith in people who don't deserve it. And like, yes, the Dark Knight returns Batman.
00:51:07
Speaker
Fashy. I'm not even going to dismiss the fact that he is super fashy, but you can understand why after years of like working with Commissioner Gordon, trying to work with the system as much as possible. He's reached 60. He's watched Gotham City and by extension the world turn into a shithouse. And he's just like that is a Batman who is having his taxi driver moment. He has reached the limit and he's decided, okay,
00:51:32
Speaker
Fine. I mean, I think we could probably do like a 10 part series of all the mistakes people make reading Dark Knight Returns. Reading Dark Knight Returns, sadly, sadly, there is, there is, yeah, there is. It's just, it's not great. But you're right. And that's the whole Superman versus Batman thing. And it is frustrating because
00:51:55
Speaker
so many people think of them as polar opposites and you know they think of them as because they look at that last issue of dark knight returns they think oh batman and superman hate each other they don't i mean they they don't agree on a lot of stuff but they don't hate each other i mean i thought um
00:52:14
Speaker
And there have been some really good modern comics that have really captured that dynamic really well. I thought Jeff Loeb's, Superman and Batman did a really good job with this. Tom King's issue when he had Superman and Batman after Bruce and Selina got engaged and Bruce and Selina and Clark and Lois go on this double date. I mean, that was like one of the best depictions of their relationship.
00:52:39
Speaker
Oh yeah. Cause you've got, you know, Bruce talking to Selena about Clark and then Clark talking to Lois about Bruce and just like the way they talk about each other. And, you know, you can see that they don't quite, you can, it's obvious they don't understand each other, but they still respect and like each other. And I think that's, that's really like how that's, and it is so frustrating when they just go the easy route of they hate each other. Let's have them punch each other now.
00:53:04
Speaker
Yeah. Let's have each other like they're, they're brothers. They don't understand everything about them, but when push comes to shove, they will work to protect each other. You know, I was reading one book called the Batman files, otherwise a very well-written book, but they're like the writers talking about how Bruce has all these contingencies against Superman. It's like without a doubt, but I can't help but think that it all comes back to that issue of Superman where in the, in the burn or the way run.
00:53:31
Speaker
he gives Batman the kryptonite and says, look, there may come a day where I go nuts or I get mind controlled or something happens and I want to know that the means to stop me is in the hands of the person I trust the most. Like that is the foundation of their relationship and that respect
00:53:52
Speaker
has built between them over the years. They might argue, they might come at points from different angles. Batman will always argue the more pragmatic course. But at the end of the day, I think Mark Wade put it best when he has Superman go to Clark or Superman go to Bruce in Kingdom Come and go, at the end of the day, Batman is somebody who doesn't want to see other people die. Like, yeah, even his enemies. Like, if it was that easy, like the Joker would be gone a long time ago.
00:54:24
Speaker
And the Batman here, I like, I agree with you. I also really liked the fact that this Batman is much more, it's no connection to Luther really, right? No, no. And he's, in that one, he's very much just like, in the comic, he's very much just a tool, right? You know, he's orphaned and then he gets, he joined and then,
00:54:50
Speaker
And it's all Luther gives him everything he needs. But here, he does it himself. He builds himself up after he escapes from the Gulag. And that is one of the best moments when he...
00:55:04
Speaker
Wait, is that the, is that, yeah, yeah, he was the little kid who goes. Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, he's staring death at Superman. Like, you couldn't have gotten here sooner. Like, you couldn't have saw, you couldn't have figured this out earlier. That your, that your boy Stalin might've been, you know, doing things. And just like that, like he's just glaring and as he does it, the bats come down.
00:55:27
Speaker
which was a great visual, like, yeah, like that moment if I was the director of animation, I would have given everybody a high five because that was that was pretty great. So, so yeah, I really like that this this fat man is much more he does it all himself he builds himself up and
00:55:43
Speaker
And it's, because I think in the, in the comic, it becomes too much where it's Batman becomes a symbol of capitalism in a way. And yeah, which is, I understand what they're going for, because, you know, Bruce Wayne is a rich guy. And, you know, but, but it works better this because I think Batman is more than that. He's Batman appears when the system is broken. That's, that's what spurs him on. And
00:56:11
Speaker
And you can't have them be, and it can't have the same type of Batman that you would have in an American context. So you have it here as a different and a very Soviet context. And it works so well. And it speaks to what that character is supposed to represent. Absolutely. It could have been a horrible, horrible joke. I like, look, here's Batman in a funny hat. And to be fair, the hat fucking rules. But I do like that, yeah, no billionaire fortune, nothing. Like he just, he literally builds himself from the ground up.
00:56:41
Speaker
But the interesting wrinkle is that in this universe, this Batman is hyper-fixated. He just wants to tear down the system. Like he has no Alfred, he has no Leslie Tompkins, no way to kind of talk him off the ledge, which is why there's that awesome sequence where he's like, yeah, you've got 10 minutes to evacuate the museum before I blow it up. And then it explodes. And he's like, oh, did I say 10 minutes? I meant one. And you're just like, oh, Jesus. Yeah, it's like, okay.
00:57:08
Speaker
You have gone off the rails, my friend. Yeah, yeah. So, but he is that Batman, like he plans meticulously. He sets up the red solar mirrors. And when Superman comes in and is like, I am going to kick the ever loving stuffing out of you.
00:57:25
Speaker
he's got that little smug smile on his face like I know something you don't know and yeah things take a turn after that. It's really quite well done the way they have this like little like so many people playing chess in this movie and this one is this is a great bit of business between Batman and Superman. Like that's how the fight would probably reasonably go. Batman would make all the plans in the world but all it takes is one of those variables
00:57:50
Speaker
not meeting and then clerks the threat again. So what did you think of the whole, cause they changed what happens to Stalin in this, right? Yes.
00:58:02
Speaker
In the comic book, there's this whole character that's completely limited, right? The elder who's Stalin's illegitimate son. And there's this kind of like sibling rivalry aspect that plays out throughout the comic. And that's completely gone. That character doesn't exist here. And in the comic book, Stalin is killed by cyanide and then Superman is offered the position of command of the Communist Party.
00:58:31
Speaker
And then after he meets Lana, again, that changes his mind. Here, it's completely different. Right here, he confronts Stalin because he's found out about the Gulags.
00:58:41
Speaker
And that's what I love about this version is that he, when Lois tells him about the Gulags, he's like, you know, that's not possible. And she's like, well, why don't you check for yourself? And he does. Like, he's not just going to blindly, because I think people make that mistake sometimes when they're adapting Superman is they think, oh, well, he'll just, he just blindly follows the government. Well, no, I mean, he's, he's gone against the government when he's had to, because he's the whole people get so wrapped up in the truth, justice and American way part of it. They don't realize that.
00:59:10
Speaker
Superman has gone rogue from the government plenty of times, and he won't just be a puppet. That was why the Dark Knight Returns turned out the way it did, because he had gotten broken down to the point where he did become a puppet. Absolutely, yeah. This is a wonderful adaptation, because yeah, that would be the thing that people focus on, is that in the light of modern history,
00:59:34
Speaker
Stalin is a monster like you cannot have Joseph Stalin be like the kindly uncle figure like in the comics it floats a little bit because you know he gets dealt with in fairly short order and off stage fairly quickly in the movie it allows Superman to have much more agency in that he figures out oh shit
00:59:58
Speaker
Yeah, this is awful. This has been going on under my nose this entire time. They have been using me and putting me in positions and even talks about it when I think when they're opening the hydroelectric dam where he's just like, you do realize I could be off doing more important things and making sure everything's all right. And I think at one point like Stalin calls him into his office and he goes, look, you are like a trusting,
01:00:23
Speaker
kitten. You see things in a way that is just completely naive. You don't understand the sacrifices that's necessary for real power. And like, you're sitting there as an audience member going like, I know your track record, buddy. And you and it's you and old Hitler for just sheer
01:00:47
Speaker
God awfulness. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, I think it's a good move to have Superman have that confrontation, but rather than the expected, this is the part where I drag you off to jail. No, this Cal is very different. This Cal is like, no, this guy's too far gone. And if I arrest him, he's just going to have his cadre of like lieutenants and enforcers.
01:01:11
Speaker
They'll free him somehow. It'll be a whole thing. Yeah, yeah. You could tell that he doesn't want to do it, but he's like, this is what's gotta be done. And he just favorizes Stalin. And I was sat there like, that came completely out of left field. And I was like, oh, whoa. Yeah, that treatment was necessary to think. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is?
01:01:35
Speaker
it is kind of surprising that you know Warner Brothers decided to go with that change instead of just going with the you know like like you said just shuffling them off screen in a very convenient fashion because normally that's what you'd expect from them like they probably wouldn't even in an adaptation of this you probably would have expected Stalin may not have even been named in if this movie had been made like 10 years earlier I don't think they would have been named Stalin at all
01:01:59
Speaker
The premier. Yeah. They would have just been like the premier. Yeah. We don't really talk about or you'd see him in silhouette. Right. DC Comics with the president. You'd see him in silhouette. Yeah. Yeah. They deal with it pretty definitively. And they show that Superman takes control and all Stalin's flunkies burst in the room and realize, oh, shit. Their loyalties change right quick. And that's when Superman starts his own.
01:02:29
Speaker
his own experiment in communism. Well, something else I really liked about this is that Superman does kind of go down, not necessarily fashy, because he's not really fascist, but definitely much more of a big authoritarian, no doubt. But it's like this benign authoritarianism in some ways. And it's interesting how they kind of like skirt that line a lot.
01:02:55
Speaker
they give you just enough that where you're like, okay, yeah. I think Demetrius realized that the, the misstep, one of the missteps in the Miller book, and again, I'm trying to make this the roast of Mark Miller, was the bit of like, why don't you just put the whole world in a bottle, Superman? And I get the intent behind that.
01:03:16
Speaker
But it's just, it's a little too on the nose. What Demetrius does that I really dig is that he shows like, yes, Superman Soviet Union, absolutely great. You know, like there's, there's like power, housing, food, education, everybody's happy and prosperous. We're doing very well.
01:03:33
Speaker
But if you step outside the lines and get yourself in trouble and get arrested, if the offense warrants it, you're going to get a little box in your head and become a Superman robot. Yeah, yeah. Which is also interesting, like that line he says to Diana when she's like, you know, is this right? You know, should you be doing this? And he's like, well, it's better than the gulags. And it's...
01:03:53
Speaker
It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of like, yeah, well, you know, it's, it's better to get punched in the gut than get punched in the face, but doesn't mean I want either one to happen. Exactly. I think it's a nice little, I think that's like Demetrius commenting on the Doc Savage thing or Miller commenting on the Doc Savage thing where like,
01:04:12
Speaker
he did an experimental brain surgery that got rid of people's criminal impulses. And when you read about it in the modern day, you're like, that sounds like a lobotomy, dude. You're like, ooh, that is, ooh, that's so great, yeah. But it also speaks to that whole nature versus nurture thing we were talking about earlier, where it's like, he doesn't know any better way. Because he grew up in this twisted system to begin with.
01:04:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of an interesting, like, it's a variation on Brightburn where it's like, he's a guy who's grown up with these powers and these abilities and largely raised by well-intentioned people, but there's just enough alien in him where this is the more acceptable solution. Like, okay, not gonna put him in gulags. What's the next obvious step? Okay, we'll just lobotomize them and make them into productive citizens. Right, right.
01:05:09
Speaker
Like that's a great little shout out slash nod to like Grunwald's Squadron Supreme where I'm like, yeah, yeah. The behavioral modification where you're like, yeah, yeah. I mean, I get why you're trying to avoid, but is the cure worse than the disease? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all right. Now one, the other thing I want to talk about was
Film Ending and Potential for Superman Red Son Sequel
01:05:30
Speaker
the ending. Cause this has a pretty much completely different ending more or less from the comic book. Yeah.
01:05:38
Speaker
In some of the ending, but some of the ending. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you do have the thing where, you know, Superman goes up against brainiac goes into space and he's apparently appears to be dead Soviet falls into into chaos.
01:05:53
Speaker
But, and Luther takes control of the U.S. and it turns into a much more benevolent world government, which is kind of hinted at in Luther's resignation speech. Yes, the resignation speech, yeah. Which I felt was, I mean, you were talking about how you were surprised that, you know, Warner Brothers let them get away with so much. I can't help but feel that this speech was the reason why where it's like, but don't you worry everybody, American imperialism and exceptionism is gonna take the wheel again and everything's gonna be absolutely hunky dory.
01:06:21
Speaker
a global United States. And I was like, yeah, that was about right. I'm sitting in the background with my sign that says ghost capital communist Superman. But yeah, yeah, I
01:06:34
Speaker
I dig the ending and the final action sequence with Brainiac is really good. Cause it's something you've always wanted to see Superman and Luthor teaming up against Brainiac where you're like, yes, let's go. You've got the powers dude. He's got his powers. We're fighting Brainiac in the Skullship. This is the superpowers place that I always wanted. And like you get that ending and it's really great. And you think you're gonna get, okay, this is just gonna be the creamy nougat underneath which we're gonna get the comic book ending.
01:07:04
Speaker
We don't quite get it. We get that. It just goes right to credit. It's like, wait a minute. Is there a post-credits scene? What's happening here? And so we should probably let people know because in the
01:07:20
Speaker
Spoilers if you haven't read a comic. Spoilers for a 16 year old comic. But one of the best things about that comic book was the closed time loop thing where you get, it goes into the future and Luther's descendant, Jor-El with the letter L, you know, going with the earth two spelling is, and Earth's sun has become a red
01:07:47
Speaker
has become red over time. Yeah, like Superman 78. Exactly. Yeah, it's going to destroy Krypton. Yeah. And it's got this point where Jor-El sends his infant son into a rocket into the past, and he does not send him to another planet, he's sending him to another time period.
01:08:05
Speaker
He goes to the past and he crash lands in the Soviet Union in the 1938. And that is, that predestination paragraphs, that was such a great aspect of that conflict. I'm just like, oh my God, this is brilliant. Superman has led to Luther's descendant.
01:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, like, like so perfect. Like as a writer, you read that and you're instantly jealous. You're like, God damn it, it's staring me in the face and I didn't see it. Like, yeah, you're just like, of course, LLLL, it's all over the place. Why wouldn't it be that? Like, it's just such a natural,
01:08:36
Speaker
logical progression at making this whole thing, the snake eating its tail, knowing that it's an elseworlds and you could do whatever you want. It's one of the most brilliant moments. And to see that last shot of the rocket, like just completing the circle and all the while Superman's monologuing about how like, I'm not getting any younger or not getting any older. My powers are fading. Eventually they go away entirely. I see my parents. Like I see, I see the destruction of earth now called Krypton.
01:09:06
Speaker
And then boom, we get right to the beginning and it's perfect. And if it had been adapted for animation, I think it would have been great, but I have to think, and this is just me, I haven't heard any rumors to the contrary or anything like that, but I have to think that maybe they were trying to keep a door open for maybe a sequel, like maybe some kind of further exploration of this down the line because it just feels like,
01:09:30
Speaker
Superman and Lois have that little last little scene where she spots him in the crowd and she's like, what the fuck? And then he's gone. And then you see that last shot of him where he looks over his shoulder with a little bit of a smile and you're like, okay, well, Superman red sun return in some kind of multiverse joint. That's the only way I can kind of make that ending really work. Cause otherwise you're left kind of scratching your head. Yeah. I think also just may have been just the,
01:09:55
Speaker
I think maybe it might've, they were worried it might've confused people if they had gone with that bridge too far. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause it is that kind of like, you know, wacky sci-fi type stuff that, you know, normie people might be like, what, what?
01:10:09
Speaker
I mean, it might be a little too comic booky and like cinema sins or something might get ahold of it and have a frickin' failed day like they always do because we can't have nice things. But I think that if they'd included it as like a deleted scene, like just to be like, or like the director's cut where you see that flow into it, I think that would have been,
01:10:30
Speaker
just perfect like sherry on top of the sunday but but make no mistake i think this movie is very strong that would have been the clincher that really like took it from like good to great exactly yeah yeah okay stacy uh any final thoughts you want to mention about this movie uh
01:10:47
Speaker
I will say that you know the adaptation is very, very good if you want to you know if you go if you're going in cold if you absolutely want to read the comic book by all means you don't necessarily have to. But you know the the arts by.
01:11:04
Speaker
by Dave Johnson, Killian Plunkett, like absolutely great. Like there's a reason that in the credits, like a lot of the imagery comes directly from the comics, like the he's watching you and him standing on top of his cymbal. And the music is great. Like, holy shit. Like the opening theme and the closing theme of this just are really, really good. Like the opening threads the needle of being like,
01:11:28
Speaker
you know, kind of melancholy kind of like, what are we getting ourselves into here with this? And, but the ending is just like, fuck yeah, Superman, smash the shit out of capitalism. I am here for this. Like that last theme is like, it's a get pumped anthem. Like read yourself some capital and we're listening to that. You're like, let's do this. But yeah, at the end of the day, it is an entertaining, it's an entertaining like hour and a half. Like if you, if you want to have a good time, just a fun like,
01:11:56
Speaker
Superman story that's a little different from maybe what you're used to. I would absolutely recommend this movie. It's a fun little bit. It's a fun companion piece. It would be interesting to do a double bill. If you have some friends over, watch some Dark Knight Returns, watch some Superman, Red Son. You get two great Batman, Superman fights. What's not to like? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to echo a lot of that. I mean, it's on HBO Max too. So if you got HBO Max, just, you know, it's on there. I think pretty much all the animated stuff with the exception of like,
01:12:26
Speaker
was the one we were talking about, Son of the Dragon, the new Batman one thing. Oh, so good. That's not on there yet, unfortunately. And I'm annoyed by that because I really want to see that. It's quite, quite good. Yeah. And so it's on HBO Max, you know, definitely take the time to watch it. And yeah, the comic is good, too, even if you're
01:12:46
Speaker
you know, like us and you've got issues with Miller, this is definitely one of his, this is one of those books that, and I was telling you this when we were communicating before we got on the show, like this is one of those books that every, every once in a while I'll read a book by Miller that makes me wish I was standing right next to him so I could just smack him upside the head and be like, why can't you write like that all the time?
01:13:08
Speaker
I mean, look, the man's made his decision and look, controversy creates cash maybe. So it's working for him. But like, look, I'm like, that's his brand. That's what he wants to do. God bless. But you see stuff like this and you're just like, Oh, what could have been if we have one timeline over one universe over or the Superman adventures Miller.
01:13:29
Speaker
had kind of become part of the brain trust of like the DCEU. Like what we could have got. And again, like not trying to yuck anybody's yum, but if you want to read the comic, absolutely enjoy it. It's wonderful. You can find it on its own. I don't think it's been folded into any of the greater Elseworlds collections, but I just recommend those in general because it's a longer book, isn't it? It's like what?
01:13:55
Speaker
like three three separate books yeah it's uh it's about 150 pages oh okay oh yeah 160 pages yeah it's a three it's a three issue limited series and a lot happened a lot happened to it yeah that made that point yeah and and look i'm just gonna say it look the costume designs are clutch yes like superman's original outfit pretty good pretty good when he becomes president superman
01:14:23
Speaker
Oh my God, it's out of control. It's like going from the original series, Star Trek uniforms to like Wrath of Khan, Star Trek uniforms. You're like, yes, yes, that's the brand. That's the brand right there. Like he looks so clutch with those black gloves and like that, just that decked out outfit. Like the only thing that could have taken over the top and made me absolutely love it is if he had those buttons like Captain Marvel has in some portrayals of Shazam. That would have just been, but that would have been too much. That would have been flying too close to the sun.
01:14:50
Speaker
But amazing designs, the Green Lantern Corps, which we didn't really talk about, their designs are really cool. Like that is a really interesting take on Green Lantern and particularly in the animated adaptation, which works in like some Roswell 1947 conspiracy theory type stuff, which I thought was interesting.
01:15:08
Speaker
And the Batman design, like we mentioned already that the Batman design is just so good. It's it's so stupid at the same time. You think it will not work. It has to thread that needle perfectly because one wrong move and it's just going to be a joke as it is. You do have that initial chuckle when you see it. But then the actual Batman underneath reminds you, no, actually, I'm somebody. Yeah, yeah. Extremely seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Recommendations and Social Media Engagement
01:15:32
Speaker
Yeah. It's great. And yeah, would recommend all over the comic and the movie. You will have a wonderful time.
01:15:37
Speaker
All right, Stacy, tell people where they can find you. You can find me mostly online. I hang out at my Twitter feed all the time. If you want to stop by, I am at Stacey HD. You can get my stream of consciousness reactions to most pop culture and anything that kind of tickles my fancy.
01:15:55
Speaker
There, I also post links to my articles over at looper.com. If you want to swing by over there, absolutely feel free. Yeah, you know, feed the algorithm, please. That definitely helps me out. If you would like to check out the Fanboy Power Hour podcast, you can do so. We are available wherever you can find your podcast app of choice.
01:16:17
Speaker
We are on TFPH, thomasfrankpeterherry.libson.com. That's the main site. So if you want to listen to some stuff, sample, try on. Absolutely. It's mostly just what we've done here. It's just a rambling conversation between myself and my brother where we talk about whatever catches our fancy in the world of pop culture. So by all means, come on by.
01:16:38
Speaker
Okay, great.
Future Topics and Community Engagement
01:16:39
Speaker
Well, Stacy, thanks so much for coming on the show. This was a lot of fun. We got to have you come back again. Oh, I would love to. Just, just feel free. When you, when you get a chance to see Batman Soul of the Dragon, you'll be my, you'll, you'll be my first call. I will come back because I want to, I want to discuss the hell out of it with you. Absolutely. It's real quite good. So yeah. Okay. Uh, so that does it for us. You can find us at superherosinophiles.com, supercinemapod on Twitter and Instagram.
01:17:05
Speaker
and we've got the Facebook group, Superhero Cine Files, just search and it'll pop right up. If you wanna get in touch with me, if you're interested in being on the show, you can send me an email, superheroescinefiles at gmail.com, or there's a contact form on the website in case I've gotten that email address wrong, it's happening before, so just go to the website, do a contact form through there and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or anywhere you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
01:17:32
Speaker
You have been listening to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at SuperCinemapod. Join our Facebook group by searching for Superhero Cinephiles, where you can interact with us and other superhero fans. If you'd like to support the show, you can become a regular supporter at Patreon or make a one-time donation through PayPal, both of which can be found at our website, SuperheroCinephiles.com.
01:17:54
Speaker
If you buy or rent any movies through the amazon links at our site, it helps support the show Please be sure to rate and review us on ample podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Thank you for listening and as always
01:18:24
Speaker
Good night. Good evening. God bless.