Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Peacemaker - Season 1
267 Plays3 years ago
After a long absence, Adam Lance Garcia returns to the show and this time, we're diving deep into the first season of HBO Max's Peacemaker! We talk about what has set this show apart from others, how COVID limitations actually ended up helping the series, the way the show addresses so many different themes, and we've got a lot of great things to say about James Gunn and John Cena.
Listen to The Green Lama audio drama on Apple Podcasts
Help us out by buying or renting on Amazon
Want to tell us what you think? Have any questions or comments for Perry about superheroes in media or comics? Leave a voice message to play on the show. You can also apply to be a guest on the show.
Patrons get to listen to episodes before everyone else and they also get access to my exclusive companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. If you want to join in, please consider supporting us through Patreon!
--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/superherocinephiles/messageRecommended
Transcript
Life Lessons and Cultural Appreciation
00:00:14
Speaker
And G says, yeah, sure, I'll teach him how to fight. Hey, kid, look over here. Kid looks over, he whacks me on the back of the head and says, that's the first fucking rule. Keep your eye on your goddamn opponent. Hey, what's up, fellas? But you totes seem like the coolest guys in this place, so I was thinking, you know, we should get to know each other.
00:00:39
Speaker
What? Let's pick a topic, and then everyone goes around in a circle and says their feelings on that topic. Let's start with, uh... I don't know. Let's each say something that we're grateful for, that black people have contributed to American culture. Is this dude joking right now? No. Hey, look, I'll go first. I'm grateful that black people gave us rock and roll music.
00:01:01
Speaker
Lynyrd Skynyrd, ZZ Top, 38 Special. All those guys owe everything to black American folk and blues musicians. I mean, they wouldn't exist without them. And then white Redneck music would just sound like... Well, what it sounded like before black people, which was the wet, sloppy sounds of fucking your sister. Okay, so that's my turn.
Confrontations and Urgent Revelations
00:01:19
Speaker
Which one of you dumb, sister-fucking, tiki-torch-carrying sloths from Lagoonie's looking pieces as shit wants to go next? Who the fuck are you?
00:01:27
Speaker
Your first? Cool. Okay, wait. No, let me guess. Your favorite contribution to black American culture was all the black guys who fucked your mom in the ass while you watched from the closet jerking off. Fuck. You never answered. Who are you? I'm just the guy who's gonna fuck you so hard your asshole's gonna be dragging behind you like a tail.
00:01:57
Speaker
Oh, no, you're not gonna gold me into attacking you. We both know there's cameras all over this place, and now these morons look like the aggressors. On the ground! Now! Both of you! Yo, the area started. This dude did nothing. You're a bad dad. I need to talk to Detective Song now! I need to talk to Detective Song! I got information important in this case! My son's trying to kill me! Give me the sentence!
Introduction to Superhero Cinephiles Podcast
00:02:30
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And how the hell do I keep making this mistake, Adam? Adam Lance Garcia is somehow back here. Why are you here again? I don't know, mostly because I stalk you and I live in your walls.
00:02:47
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Speaking of, I got a bone to pick with you because, you know, I sent out a, when I scheduled guests on the show, I got a calendly link where they can pick the date and the time and everything. And I give them a spot in the application to add any additional comments. And you just straight up sexually harassed me in it, so. To be fair, you are incredibly sexy. You know, I cannot fault you on that. How you doing, buddy?
00:03:15
Speaker
I'm doing great, sir, just happy to be here. Yeah, I'm glad to have you back too, you know, despite riffing on it, but yeah, it's always good to see you, always good to have you back on the show.
Peacemaker's Unexpected Appeal
00:03:24
Speaker
And today we're talking about something that both of us love, and that is Peacemaker, an HBO Max, you know, semi-sequel or spinoff from the James Gunn Suicide Squad. So,
00:03:41
Speaker
Let's just jump right in, because there's a lot to talk about, you know, eight episodes. There's a lot to talk about. Where do you want to start with this? I mean, I want to first start off by admitting that, like, when this show was announced, it was very much along the line. My thinking was, who wants this? Who asked for this? No one asked for this. I had the exact same reaction.
00:04:02
Speaker
I remember I enjoyed the suicide squad, but I really didn't like Peacemaker the character, which was the point you weren't supposed to like him. He was very much one of the antagonists in the film, if not the lead antagonist. So when it was first announced, I was like, what is the story here? Why is this happening? I don't want this. No one wants this. And I ate my words. I very quickly
00:04:28
Speaker
realized that James Gunn left the Suicide Squad. He gave basically every surviving character, and a lot of the characters who died, a full character arc. And he, I believe he even said it, like, I didn't finish Peacemaker's story. And I came up with this whole series pretty quickly. And he wrote it very quickly during the beginning of the pandemic. And
Character Depth and Critique of Societal Issues
00:04:55
Speaker
I'm always amazed and having rewatched it recently for this podcast, it's how much he does with that character, how much of it's an exploration of toxic, toxic masculinity, how it's this takedown of
00:05:11
Speaker
the alt-right and how it's this really, really interesting examination of a character that you at first wrote off as a villain, as a joke character. She becomes this vastly dynamic character because of the series.
00:05:33
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't, I was, you know, when they first announced it, my whole thought was, okay, this is just a John Cena vehicle, you know, he's trying to make a bigger name for himself, and now everyone's gonna be shoving him down our throats like they did with Vin Diesel and Dwayne Johnson, and I'm just like, I'm like,
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah, my same thought was like, I don't really, of all the characters in the Suicide Squad, and this is before the movie, before I saw them, before the movie came out, even is what I was thinking. I'm like, of all the characters you've got on the Suicide Squad, Peacemakers seem like the least interesting one to me. So I couldn't understand why you'd want to do a whole HBO Max series about him instead of, say,
00:06:15
Speaker
Bloodsport, which, you know, you got Idris Elba there. So I was kind of surprised at that when that announcement was made. And even after seeing the movie, I'm just like, okay, well, you know, it's James Gunn. I love the movie. And yeah, he was fun in the movie, but I couldn't see how they can make a whole series about him. So I still wasn't, I was still very cold on this, on the idea of the series. Even, you know, the first trailer I saw, I'm like, eh, that seems okay. It seems okay. Yeah.
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's just fine. Right. But it didn't grab my interest. And then I think I actually waited a little bit after the first three episodes dropped on HBO, Mexico, like a week or two or before I finally sat down and watched it. And then I'm just like, oh, oh, oh, wow.
00:06:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think that was, I don't recall if I waited as well, but I do remember just very instantly thinking, oh, this is, he's saying something with this. And I mean, you and I have, you know, differing opinions on when it comes to like Marvel stuff. And one of my, when to sort of like, one of the reasons why I am so much cooler on the Marvel series than I am on Peacemaker is because
00:07:23
Speaker
With Peacemaker, it felt like James Gunn, who wrote this character in the movie, felt like, like I said, he had something to say with this character. He wanted to continue with the arc. There was a very specific reason why this creator wants to tell this story. And it works on its own. You don't have to have seen the Suicide Squad. It helps, obviously. And
00:07:50
Speaker
whereas I feel like a lot of the Marvel shows, with some exceptions, feel more corporate-mandated, as in, like, oh, we need to, WandaVision is, we need to explain why she has all these powers for Multiverse of Madness, so we're gonna do this storyline.
00:08:06
Speaker
You know, like we want to introduce a new the new Hawkeye for the Thunderbolts. So let's have this Hawkeye series. I mean, and not a lot of the series while they range in quality. It's again, in my opinion, I I don't ever really feel like, oh, you needed to tell the story. You, this creator, needed to tell this story the way that I feel that Peacemaker
00:08:34
Speaker
is first James Gunn. Like I said, he needed to tell the story. And it's what I want more of from these sort of like larger tentpole franchises, whether it be DC, Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, whatever. It was like, it's a good blueprint. And I say that
00:08:56
Speaker
knowing that we'll probably never see this ever happen again with all the new HBO, with all the HBO, Warner Brothers discovery news that's been coming out this week as a recording where there's this weird 10 year plan.
00:09:13
Speaker
that is leaning more into the theatrical, which means that a show like Peacemaker is this sort of once in a, not like once in a lifetime, but this really kind of miracle of a show that happened because HBO Max was desperate for content.
TV Narratives vs. Movie Adaptations
00:09:27
Speaker
James Gunn had a story he wanted to tell, and it was the pandemic, so no one knew what was going on.
00:09:33
Speaker
you have something that says something in meaningful ways in the filthiest way possible. I just don't think it's ever gonna happen again, at least within the next few years. Yeah, going back to what you said about the difference between the Marvel shows and Peacemaker. I think you're right, because the Marvel shows are much more about
00:09:54
Speaker
How can we build, how does this contribute to like the larger universe narrative? Whereas Peacemaker is much more about, I wanna say something about this character. I wanna say something about these ideas that are tie into this character. So it's a very different approach. Not necessarily better or worse, you know, depending on your taste, but yeah, I do, it's,
00:10:22
Speaker
It's really it's it was really cool to see that and I think yeah I think you're right about with the new DC stuff that's coming out now is it's everything's kind of up in the air and it's really disappointing because one of the things that I've really always been an advocate for is now that we have the technology to do it like
00:10:44
Speaker
A lot of characters suit themselves so much better to the TV show narrative than they do to a movie narrative. And if they're going to be cutting back on that, that's really kind of disappointing. Something like Doom Patrol, right? Doom Patrol would probably never work as a movie, but it works amazingly well as a series on HBO Max.
00:11:08
Speaker
or even something like, or even, you know, Superman and Lois is another example too. It's completely different example, but that's something that, yeah, you've got these larger stories that it's being told, but the real draw of that show isn't about, you know, the bizarro verse or the,
00:11:24
Speaker
the Kryptonians invading. The real reason everyone watches that show is because of the family dynamics. You can't explore that as well in a two-hour superhero movie, but you can really delve into that in a long-form series.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's also like, there's also something to be said about like, what I find interesting about what's been said about the DC stuff is like, they want the big blockbuster things. And, you know, to bring up the back of it all, like it wasn't big scale enough for the powers that be. And that's like,
00:12:04
Speaker
that doesn't make sense to me because I think you look at a Sherlock Peacemaker, which is, while it does deal with like an alien invasion and large scale and large and large ideas, it's a very small scale story. And that's, there's something that like certain characters, you know, allow themselves leaning towards, like that are better suited for a smaller scale story. And I think that's,
00:12:32
Speaker
You know, like the back girl of it all. It's like I kind of wanted a smaller scale back girl film. That sounds really nice. Yeah. That sounds like almost incredibly refreshing because I think, you know, I remember with after I finished my first Green Llama novel, my girlfriend at the time asked me like, well, what do you do after you save the world? It was one literally like the best thing anyone ever asked me because it was like.
00:12:54
Speaker
Well, how do I top the biggest thing that ever happened? You can't. You can't top it. You have to make it smaller. And it was more about like a smaller scale, more emotional story. And those are, I think the stories that are this, you know, not necessarily the best, but like can be.
00:13:11
Speaker
powerful and meaningful. And I think that's what makes Peacemaker so great. It's like, it is this character's journey from, it looks just focused on the Peacemaker character of getting outside of a toxic parent, like getting out of the shadow of a toxic father and, you know, not wanting to just kill everyone, just to kill everybody. Like there's so many things that he goes through
00:13:38
Speaker
that I don't think would be properly suited for a end of the world type story. I mean, you have the right story to tell in Suicide Squad, but it was the right story to tell for Peacemaker. So I think it is this really great, it's just a great exploration of character, it's a great exploration of
Peacemaker's Cultural Commentary
00:14:00
Speaker
you know, certain themes and ideas that are sort of part of the American zeitgeist right now with, you know, the alt right. It's a great examination of like,
00:14:12
Speaker
racism and like, you know, just all these different ideas. Yeah. And it breaks my heart that like, we probably never, we won't see that ever again. And something else from DC. Something else too, I noticed on this latest watch is it, it kind of stealth in the background. It's kind of like stealth rebuilding the DCU. Oh my God. Yeah. The Snyder stuff is gone. Cause like, you know, they mentioned the fact when, uh,
00:14:42
Speaker
Leota gives her press conference at the end. She talks about Task Force X. She's like, this has been going on for years. And, you know, he has all these mentions of all the, you know, there's, there's a green arrow mentioned in there. There's all these mentions of, you know, he, Peacemaker talks, jokes about teaming up with Matterreader and all that. There's like all these, these like kind of stealth rebuilding of the DCEU in the background. And I thought that was really cool about it too.
00:15:06
Speaker
And also, it doesn't define anything that happened in the DCEU, because don't forget, it ends with the Justice League showing up with literal characters from the Zack Snyder-verse showing up. Like, we don't see Gal Gadot and we don't see Henry Cavill, but they sure look like the versions. And we do see Jason Momoa and Ezra Miller as Aquaman and Flash, sort of saying, like, yes, this is set in the DCEU.
00:15:32
Speaker
But without like, you know, it allow one thing that I think it does is something I kind of wish I saw more of in the Marvel verse in the Marvel Cinematic Universe where it's like, you can acknowledge that these
00:15:49
Speaker
stories take place in the same universe, but allow different perspectives on that universe. Like, I like the fact that we can have Aquaman say, fuck you, Barry. And it feels like, yeah, like it totally feels appropriate for the DCEU, totally feels true for in many ways to the Snyderverse, but it doesn't defy anything that says in the Snyderverse, it moves it forward in interesting ways.
00:16:15
Speaker
And, you know, it's perfectly valid here because it's like, this is the peacemaker show. So yeah, he's gonna say, fuck you, Barry. And then you, I think that's, I don't know, it reminds me of, and I think this was like the DC's sort of policy for the last few years, was treating it like the DCEU almost like,
00:16:42
Speaker
way comics were like okay so that we have this series over here and this is the artist and writers behind it we acknowledge that like this story exists in this universe um but it's gonna look different than everything else because it's a different artist and it's gonna sound different because it's a different writer um and you know it's like
00:17:03
Speaker
I like that. I like that feel for the DCU. And that's kind of what I was really enjoying like in the post Snyder era was like, we can have a Shazam and it can be this family friendly, like kind of silly, but still like set in the DCU story. We can have like a very adult take in the
00:17:22
Speaker
with the Suicide Squad and Peacemaker, and it's still set in the DCEU. Nothing's happening, nothing that's happening in Suicide Squad, Nick Gates, what happens in Suzanne, they're just different. They're different, like, if you look at the DCEU as a spectrum, is that we got to see the full spectrum. And I think that's, like, not to, like, just make this a Marvel versus DC, because, like, I'm not a fan of the Snyder, and as, you know, you and I have had that, like, our long conversation on,
00:17:51
Speaker
um uh over the last few years like i'm not like i'm not like saying that oh we want to have
00:17:58
Speaker
I want the Snyderverse or I think Marvel versus DC is better. I'm just saying that as of late, I found the DC EU a little bit more to my tastes because I felt like I was getting a diversity of thought in the way they're telling these stories versus Marvel, which has this house style, which again, like I can't fault them for that because it's worked financially.
00:18:21
Speaker
for a very long time, you know, but I think, yeah, so like when I look at Peacemaker, I'm like, I kind of hold it up. I'm like, this is what you should be doing. Like, I kind of want to shake it at like everybody at Warner Brothers and at Marvel, I'm like, please more of this. Like, this is what we want. This is what we need. Like, not necessarily this exact show, not exactly like what this, what James Gunn said or how they, how the characters were treated, et cetera, et cetera, but this sense of
00:18:50
Speaker
you know, just trying things in interesting ways, telling stories about characters that could range in the scale from like a giant starro, and then you can have an X story where he's like literally finding tiny butterflies. You know, having characters that like don't necessarily have an arc in one movie, but can sort of explore who they need to be in a small scale storyline.
00:19:15
Speaker
Um, anyway, this is getting a bit bigger than, uh, it's, it's, it's good stuff you're talking about. And I, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I get, I totally get what you're saying there. And I agree with, uh, I agree with most of what you're, what you're saying. Um, one of the things too, I like about it is, you know, you look at something like Shazam, you look at something like peacemaker, the suicide squad.
00:19:35
Speaker
even though Peacemaker and the Suicide Squad are much more adult, right? They're, you know, much more violent, much more, much more gory, you know, a lot more, a lot more language and all that kind of stuff. There's, that still feels more like it's in the same universe as like Shazam and Aquaman and Birds of Prey than Snyder stuff felt because Snyder's stuff was just so like,
00:20:03
Speaker
It was like this weird mix of like the Nolan ask like hyper realism with like the war, you know, so it's like we have to get we have to, it was like this, it was this very bleak kind of depiction of everything and, whereas, even though
00:20:20
Speaker
Peacemaker and the Suicide Squad are dark and they're adult, there's a sense of fun to them that I didn't have with the Snyder movies. And that makes it fit in a lot more with like Shazam, even though Shazam is, you know, much more like a much more family friendly type thing.
00:20:35
Speaker
Yeah. No, I see that. And I think it's, you know, it's interesting because like we, you know, I think, you know, I've talked about the Snyder cut, but like it's weird that how that film, like it's a better Elseworlds than anything else. But yeah, I agree. I see that point. It's like a lot of the post Snyder stuff. Like it's weird. Like I can see Man of Steel.
00:20:58
Speaker
existing in the Peacemaker universe, I can sort of like, I can sort of see the Snyder Cut existing in
00:21:07
Speaker
Let me put it this way. I can see the Snyder cut and those films happening in Peacemaker, in Shazam, et cetera. I can't see it the other way around, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that makes total sense, yeah, absolutely. But also too, is just like, one of the things too I like about this show is, you know, taking this character who in the Suicide Squad, you know, you just look at him and he's the villain, he's the,
00:21:36
Speaker
or villain slash partly comedy relief, right? Yeah. And, you know, his whole tagline there, he's like, he's like, you know, I want peace at any cost, no matter how many men, women and children I have to kill to get it. That's a funny line in a movie. But then for James Gunn to say like, well, actually, that line makes no fucking sense. So let's explore that. And I think that it's something
00:21:58
Speaker
most people would not have thought to do and I think that's and and for him to actually say like no let's really dig into why he thinks that way and what does that lead to what's the logical extension of that and what does what happens to him when he discovers what that logical extension is.
00:22:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's like to that point, it's, you know, the fact that we actually see him have to do that. Like we actually see him confront the thing that like when you said you would kill men, women and children to like bring peace. Here you are. Here's an entire family you need to kill and he can't. He understands like we actually get to explore what that means. And I think that's, I just don't
00:22:44
Speaker
I don't really see any other, and this is more of a James Cotton thing. I think that's something about why the Guardians of the Galaxy films are so good. They're my favorite Marvel films. Why the Suicide Squad and Peacemaker are, and Suicide Squad gets better. I've watched it three or four times. It's the one I've revisited the most.
00:23:05
Speaker
because I feel like he's really good at exploring characters and making them confront these difficult issues. So I just don't foresee any other writer or director of a superhero story saying like, hey, this guy said this thing.
00:23:23
Speaker
Now, let's understand why that is and why he can't do it, like who he really is. He says this thing, but he's not that person. He's not the person, and this is why he's not that person because he said it because he blames himself for killing his brother because his father was a racist
00:23:40
Speaker
abusive piece of shit. And let's explore that. Let's get him away from that. How does he get away from that? And why does he get away from that? Like, even like the choice at the end, having now seen like, I remember like in the spoilers for the show. That's what I'm at last. Yeah, we're gonna be talking. We're gonna be spoiling it. So yeah.
00:24:02
Speaker
So when he decides to like kill the cow at the end of the finale and it it's like, well, he's just you could have just fucked the world because these these the butterflies were trying to save humanity. At first, I'm like, why would he do that? And then you're like, oh, because he finally found people who accepted him. Finally. And he did it because he's like and he says, I thought if I said yes,
00:24:28
Speaker
and I agreed to have the butterflies, he would hurt all of you. And that's like, and I was thinking about this before we got on the podcast, it's like one of those like, where, you know, have to remind people like,
00:24:41
Speaker
Authors don't always agree with their characters. So I don't think James necessarily agreed with Peacemaker and that moment, but it's the right choice for the character. Right. The character came from a point of like, I will literally like murder anybody to bring peace to the world. But in this moment, I'm going to choose the people
00:25:04
Speaker
who have been kind to me and are my friends. And that is a choice that he couldn't have made in Suicide Squad. Right. You know, he couldn't have made even at the beginning of the series, but he had to go through this journey to be like, I value people in a way that I never did before. So, yeah, it's it is such a good show. It is. Yeah.
00:25:30
Speaker
It's frustrating how good it is. We're talking about James Gunn and the character side of it. Like a lot of people say that Guardians of the Galaxy volume two is worse or lesser film than volume one. And I've always looked at people who say that. I'm just like, what's wrong with you? And I think I know why. And I think when you were talking, I think it kind of clicked for me is that it kind of breaks that
00:25:55
Speaker
basic Marvel formula where everything is contributing to this larger narrative. You can take Guardians of the Galaxy out of the MCU and it wouldn't change anything. Infinity War, Endgame, all of that still makes complete and total sense if you pluck Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 out of it.
00:26:23
Speaker
Iron Man 3, you could also do the same thing too, I think too. Both of those movies, they don't really do a whole lot that isn't done in other movies or that isn't used to set up anything else. And especially, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, I think it really dives into the idea of like, who are these characters and exploring their relationships with each other. It's a much more personal movie than Volume 1 was.
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think like I agree that like Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 2 is
00:26:58
Speaker
really underrated by a lot of folks because it's not the end of the world kind of story. It is essentially about, like you boil it down, it's about this found family and a, I mean, it's in some ways, it's very similar to Peacemaker and like in the barest minimum, like you boil it down, it is about a man overcoming a abusive father to like reconnect with this found family.
00:27:28
Speaker
Royal it all the way down. Like I don't think the same story in any way, but similar themes. Yeah. Yes. It's always been interesting that like James Gunn comes. It sounds like he comes from a very healthy household. Like he was very like he had like he grew up with his mother and father and his father was a great guy. But he seems to be really interested in exploring sort of that, like, again, toxic masculinity, that sort of abusive parents idea. But with Guardians of the Galaxy of mine, too, it's one of my favorites, if not my favorite Marvel film, because
00:27:58
Speaker
There's so much amazing character work. And, you know, again, I think that's, you know, I think one of my biggest issues with Marvel these days, and I hate that I always do this, I always come on, I'm like, this is my problem with Marvel. You know, it's kind of what I'm at right now. It's like, I feel like
00:28:17
Speaker
there's too much leaning into what the universe needs at the expense of the characters. So it's like, yeah, to your point, the reason why I think Guardians of Galaxy Volume 2 is so great, why it works so well, is...
00:28:32
Speaker
I see all those characters begin in one place and ends in another. You know, they, they have a, it is a very moving, powerful story about bound family. And yeah, it doesn't like- Well, and fatherhood too. Like that movie, that was the last movie I actually saw in the theater with my father. So, you know, that was about a, like he died about a year after we saw it in the theater. So yeah, and that was,
00:28:59
Speaker
It became so much more emotional for me because of that. And for a movie that's all about father like that. Going back to Peacemaker, another thing I liked about it is not only does it explore the idea of delving into the whole badass anti-hero and making him a real character, but also it
00:29:22
Speaker
And I don't think, I can't think of many other movies in general that have really done this, but it also kind of explores what are the psychological consequences of black ops and all that kind of stuff. Like that's something I didn't, I didn't pick up on that quite the first time around, but I'm watching it this time. I'm watching it more and I'm paying more attention to, and I'm like, oh, oh, I see what he's doing here.
00:29:45
Speaker
And, you know, black ops is just like, it's such a trope in entertainment and fiction, right? The whole idea of the super spy or like, you know, the black ops team, you know, being funded by the government. And, you know, we watch these stuff and we don't really kind of think about
00:30:08
Speaker
And I think part of it is just because in the Cold War, that whole spy fascination thing just kind of exploded.
00:30:16
Speaker
And we've never really kind of reckoned with what Black Ops actually is. Yeah. Yeah. Which if you read a book like, there's a, I'm not sure if you ever read this, but there's a really great book called legacy of ashes, which is all about the history of the, it's amazing. And it's all about the history of the CIA and the cold war. And up until, up until the Obama years, I think it gets up to, and it's just like, it's, this is so fucked up. This shit is so fucked up. Yeah.
00:30:42
Speaker
And, you know, we don't realize that when we're watching, you know, Mission Impossible or James Bond or the Suicide Squad. So for, you know, James Gunn to then say we're actually going to look at, you know, what a career in black ops actually does to a person. I thought that was a really smart thing to do, too.
00:31:00
Speaker
Yeah. I also, I mean, like, and we talked a lot about like speak, we talked a lot about piece America, but then like the whole black ops with you have, um, just like even like mer and, uh, hardcore and, uh, diebeers whose name I can't, uh,
00:31:15
Speaker
Economist. Yeah, I always want to call them economists, economists, and all of them have really interesting arcs. Like there's like that one moment in the finale where economist economists
00:31:30
Speaker
talks about why he dies his beard. And it's heartbreaking. Yeah. And it's like, it's a real human moment. And you get to see Harcourt, like, rediscover her own humanity in this thing, like, to your point about Black Ops, or like, it's kind of doubled her to like, what real camaraderie was, you know, like, there's that scene where
00:31:55
Speaker
where she's confronted about like, oh, killing a innocent person, but like, it's okay to defend, like, to protect the people that you work with. It's like, no, that's, you can't boil things down like that. It's, and even vigilante, God, even vigilante has a great arc. That's one of those characters, speaking into like surprising characters, like when vigilante was first came out, I'm not familiar with enough of the character to really speak to him, but like, that is one of those,
00:32:24
Speaker
if you saw the trailer or if you just sort of like clips of it, you're like, oh, this is just like a one note. Like what have we just made them associate path, like goofball.
00:32:35
Speaker
and they turn him into a really, really fascinating character. Like he is a sociopath and he even admits it. He's like, my brain doesn't, like, because I don't think the way like other, like real people think or whatever he says. But like, he's also just searching for some kind of acceptance and some kind of family and friendship in a way that he doesn't know how to. Yeah, I just, I have trouble seeing like any other,
00:33:03
Speaker
Any other franchise, like Marvel or DC doing a character like that where you're like, oh wow, you have, you know, you're insane and you're going to murder people, but also you're like, I'm going to be in a, like it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's the whole three way thing with him. And like, it's like, it's, it's such a bonkers thing. Yeah. I just.
00:33:26
Speaker
There's so much depth to these characters in a way that you just never expect. With Vigilante, I'm kind of conflicted on him because I love how he's handled in the show. On the other hand, I kind of, I'm not a Vigilante fan. I don't think I've ever read any comics with him. So I'm not like,
00:33:41
Speaker
you know completely tied but I do kind of feel for the fans of the character though because they've gotten screwed twice now first in the airovers and now they don't and now in in Peacemakers they keep getting teased with their favorite character and they keep getting something that's completely different so I do kind of feel for those people. I do and I
00:34:00
Speaker
I think I've kind of settled on when it comes to adaptation like this, it's like, you know, it's like, okay, this one's not mine. You know, I like, you know, I don't love Ben Affleck's Batman. I mean, there's a whole lot of that. Actually, that's a little bit more of a minefield.
00:34:18
Speaker
You know, I don't necessarily love like George Clooney's Batman. It's less of a minefield. But he's there and some people love him. And they're, they exist. But like, you know, I'll pick a bail or a Pattison over a Clooney any day or like, you know, over an Affleck any day. But like, you know, especially with characters like vigilante, like Batman, like everything, like their
00:34:45
Speaker
It's not like, instead of bringing another franchise, it's not like Luke Skywalker where you really only had essentially one version of him. You had the movie version and then you had a book list. Well, like we were talking about with Superman when we talked about Ben of Steel. It's basically the Christopher Reeve template and there weren't a whole lot of other versions of it. Yeah.
00:35:06
Speaker
Exactly. So like, there weren't a lot of like, I mean, you had, uh, like, at least in modern times, like in the last like 40 plus years, we haven't really had.
00:35:17
Speaker
a Superman, like you've, look, you only had two live-actions Superman in films in the last 40 plus years. You know, you had Henry Cavill and Christopher Reeve. Well, Brandon Routh too. And Brandon Routh, see? And Brandon Routh, like, yeah. But he was basically, he was basically doing a Christopher Reeve impersonation though, so you're-
00:35:37
Speaker
Yeah, wait. And I look I'm a big Superman Returns defender and I feel terrible for forgetting about around but you know, like, yeah, to your point, like it is he was just doing a Christopher Reeve impression and they tried to break free for with Henry Cavill. And there are reasons why that didn't work. And I think that has lots to do with Henry Cavill and more to do with the filmmakers. And I think
00:35:59
Speaker
But like with, you know, Batman, like you had so much variation that you're able to like get weird with it. So like now you've got like two very different versions of vigilante. The third version can be whatever you want it to be, you know, or the fourth version, the fifth version, you know, and the comic version that you love is still there. It's, it's fine. The same thing like in Beast Maker. Like I'm sure there's like, there were big Peacemaker stands before Peacemaker came out and this Peacemaker is nothing like the books. And that's kind of okay. I like,
00:36:29
Speaker
especially with the fact that like, for better or for worse, the multiverse is now a thing that we all accept. That is one of the weirdest thing that like,
00:36:39
Speaker
that the general public understands that, like, oh, there are various versions of these superheroes, and they all exist in different universes. Like, that blows my mind. That's a thing. Like, that's something that, like, you and I would have talked about and had been made fun of. And now, like, the cool jock guy in high school is like, yeah, man, I fucking love Dr. Strange and Multiverse of Madness, all those different Dr. Stranges. I'm going to go through this football. Like, we got beat up for that shit back in the day, metaphorically. But, like, you know, the point is,
00:37:07
Speaker
So it's like, you know, if the general public can accept the multiverse aspect, like there's nothing like fans should be able to do that too. That is, it is so weird that it's like, it's been less than 10 years since we saw the season finale of The Flash, the first season. And when they had that tease of the multiverse with Jay Garrick's helmet, I'm like, oh,
00:37:29
Speaker
I'm like, the multiverse, they're teasing, the multiverse exists, it exists, exists, it's never gonna happen, but it exists, and I know it exists. It was like that line in Batman Forever when, you know, Bruce Wayne mentions about the circus halfway to Metropolis by now, right? We freaked out when we heard that, because we're like, it exists, but they're never gonna do anything with it, but it exists. And that enough was enough for us. And then, never in my wildest dreams did I think, oh, by the way, here's crisis on infinite earth, here's multiverse of madness, we're gonna have secret wars in a few years.
00:37:58
Speaker
Yeah, never in my never did I ever imagine that would actually that would actually happen and that like the whole idea would have been it's funny because I remember reading I think it was save the cat actually I think it was there was some screenplay book when he was talking about the idea of having two different magical ideas kind of thing in the same movie and how that breaks it.
00:38:23
Speaker
It breaks that story, it breaks that narrative world. And he used Spider-Man as an example, where you have Peter Parker gets his powers from a spider, but then the Green Goblin gets his powers through this serum. And he's like, that's a wrong way to do it. They should have both come from the same thing. Because when you have two different magical things, and I'm just like, this is fucking stupid. This is ridiculous. Do you really think audiences are that stupid? And yeah, for a long time, movie studios did think audiences were that stupid.
00:38:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's like, as long as you lead, like, bring them to it. It's like, I remember, even with Peacemakers, being able to bring it to that, like, I, there's this weird sort of thing I have to turn off of, like, well, there's that scene where his dad, like, was it the white devil? I can't remember. The white dragon. White dragon. Like, he's flying with his, like, jets out of his hands. And like, I'm like, how is his hands not burning? I'm like,
00:39:15
Speaker
Wait, like they fought Starro in the movie. Like, why am I questioning this? Like, like, why am I trying to, like, place, like, actual real physics on this? It's like, yeah, that's so weird. Like, that, like, they have to have different now. I think, I think it's like, it's not, and I think that's a bad example. Like, a, like, whatever assembly made by, like, the Spider-Man, like, serum thing. Like, that doesn't,
00:39:41
Speaker
I think, yeah, because I think it was a big mistake that they made for the longest time that like, and even like, they still kind of make that mistake to some degree, like where every villain and hero are sort of like bound together. I mean, look at the very first Batman with like the Joker being the one who kills his parents. Yeah. Because reasons, you know, while there is merit in having the hero and villain being sort of connected in their origins, there is value in those stories. It's not,
00:40:11
Speaker
always true. In some ways it's like, you know, the most I met that had nothing to do with my upbringing. Like, you know, like people that like- Sorry, you cut out for a minute there. Can you go, can you repeat that? Sure. I mean, there are people that like, well, what was the last thing you heard? You just finished talking about there's value in having like the hero and villain connected in some way. And then that was-
00:40:41
Speaker
Oh, but there's like just as equal value as them have having separate origins, because not everything needs to be connected. Some of the people that I have not gotten along with the most my own nemes. I had nothing to do with my own origin story. They just kind of came into my life. And I think there's something
00:41:00
Speaker
to be said about like, here's this person that enters your, enters your story, and they're your antagonist. Yeah, so like, it's not, even then, like the Spider-Man versus like, Goblin being different magic systems. That's not even like an accurate comparison. I know, it was such a weird, and when I read that, I'm just like, what the hell are you even talking about in this? So, but yeah, but it was,
00:41:25
Speaker
And also, I understand it if it's like, this is the only movie you're gonna tell with this character, then it makes sense to have the villain tied into the origin. But if you're planning on doing this long-term and doing multiple stories, you can't have every villain come out of the character's origin story. Eventually, it's gonna get ridiculous. And I think that was one of the weaknesses of the later,
00:41:47
Speaker
uh Daniel Craig bomb films is like we had to tie everything back to the origin and all of a sudden you know Blofeld is like his long-lost step-brother or whatever that it was.
00:41:58
Speaker
And I was gonna say like that was the one of the biggest, like one of the best and also biggest mistakes of Smallville initially was that all the people were connected to like the meteor shower that brought Clark to earth, which was like at the time a kind of inspired idea because it allowed him to be like feel guilt for the things and like help motivate him to help people. At the same time, it did- And it gave you a showcase for his powers too as well.
00:42:27
Speaker
So yeah, yeah. And it like gave reason why there's kryptonite everywhere, et cetera, et cetera. But like it did limit it at a, it came to a point where it limited them and then they eventually broke free of that. I, I never finished smallville. Uh, so I really can't speak to how it ended. Um, but yeah, I think that's like one of the biggest mistakes was, um, not again, it was like, it was a good idea, but it showed the limits of that idea as well. It's funny you mentioned small though, cause I, um,
00:42:55
Speaker
my buddy Anthony Desiato, he has his own podcast digging for kryptonite and he's a huge Smallville fan. So like him talking about it all the time and now Michael Rosenbaum and Tom Welling are doing a rewatch podcast in Smallville called Talkville and so it got me interested. So I started rewatching it and
00:43:14
Speaker
man, that 22 episode format, it's just so rough when you're watching it. And it's funny because even then in Talkville, Rosenbaum and Welling, they talk about that, the whole idea of like, it's like, wow, we really milk that Freak of the Week stuff, didn't we? Yes. And yeah, it's fine if it's like a weekly show and everything you need to have content, so it makes sense. But eventually,
00:43:45
Speaker
it, when you're, if you're telling this long enough, it starts to stretch the credulity to the point of breaking. When it's just like all like small bills, like what, you know, 20,000 people, 50,000 people, it gets out. So, you know, eventually you get to a point where it's like, okay, what percentage of people here have superpowers? Right? Yeah. And that was like, yeah, it's,
00:44:10
Speaker
And it was also totally inconsistent with how the meteor rocks affected different people. They had, at first they had tried to make it kind of make sense. Like, you know, the kid who was obsessed with bugs, he gets bitten by kryptonite, in fact, irradiated insects. So that makes sense. The girl who had like this experimental spinal treatment, it affected her bone structure and now she can shape shift. That kind of stuff.
00:44:35
Speaker
it made like a pseudoscience kind of sense. But eventually it just got to the point where it's like, fuck it, it's meteor rocks and somehow this works. Yeah, so like, it's funny, like the whole, speaking of like the 22, like episode format, like that's the one thing that I've been really happy about over the last,
00:44:55
Speaker
few years the last like decade or so has been shifting away from like we need to have 22 episodes so that way we can like recoup our losses you know the fact that like we can have a show like uh
00:45:07
Speaker
piecemaker that is what, eight episodes? Yeah. And it tells it a solid episode season and it's done, you know, whereas like, I think, and that was also like a problem, like with some of the Marvel Netflix shows, which I loved, was like, there was like that point of like, those three episodes, like this is a 10 episode story with three episodes that have nothing to do with this.
00:45:27
Speaker
with this story or it's like it just like these stretch things out in a way that felt unnatural. Whereas with Peacemaker, I feel like every single scene, every single episode plays a specific role in
00:45:40
Speaker
each character's arc and like building towards that climax. Well, yeah, even like this shows are a good example of that, too, because I just I just finished watching the season eight of The Flash. And it was it was a slog to get through some of those episodes, especially because the show has just dropped so much since those years. Yeah, it's like there's like
00:46:03
Speaker
It's disappointing. I mean, like, Grant Gustin is so great, but, and, you know, there's still like, there's still a lot of things I liked about it. Like, I love Grant Gustin. I love, what's his guy? The guy who plays Joe West, but it's just like there's, but there's all these other characters that we have in here. Like, we have, you know, this, you know, Allegra character. We've got, you know,
00:46:24
Speaker
Chester and all this. And I'm just like, and we're dealing with their interpersonal drama. And I'm just like, why are you wasting my time with these characters? I don't give a shit about. Right. Yeah. I, I mean, I fell off.
00:46:37
Speaker
like third or fourth season where like things started to really dip like that first season was amazing that like that first season was just really really really strong where um you know the whole reveal of the villain and all this and then it was like and then it just got
00:47:00
Speaker
I haven't been able to finish Supergirl yet because of that. Like it's the last season. I've only gotten like 10 episodes in because it's just like, it's even, it's even worse. Cause the side characters are just so much more worse than that show. I heard that they actually like shot, but like didn't put in like Kara and, uh,
00:47:19
Speaker
Lex's sister, Lena. Lena, they apparently had a kiss in the show, but then they cut it. I haven't gotten to that point yet, but yeah, I've read something about that too. Yeah, interesting.
00:47:32
Speaker
Yeah, you were gonna ask about Superman and Lois, you were about to say. Oh, how about like, that's like what? Like, that's like 12 episodes, right? It's like, no, it's like 15 to eight. It's under 20, I know that. But, and I was thinking about that, I was talking about the Flash thing, like even getting rid of those like, you know, five episodes or so makes a big difference. It's amazing. And well, even like Iron Fist, like last season, all the other Netflix shows, they were like 13 episodes, Iron Fist was 10. And
00:47:58
Speaker
there was a huge jump in quality from season one to season two of Iron Fist. I mean, it's not, it's still not the, it's still, you know, lower end. Like it's probably better than Defenders, I'd say, but it's still not that great. Yeah. Yeah. Defenders started so strong and then it went off the rails and it almost redeems itself in the end.
00:48:19
Speaker
But yeah, but that but still like even so that final season of Iron Fist like just axing those last three episodes really helped a lot. It really made it a whole lot tighter. And that's why I do like what Marvel's been doing with their Netflix with their not their Netflix shows, the Disney Plus shows is their
00:48:35
Speaker
it's six episodes and they're done and that's it. And I really liked them playing around with that format. It's like, maybe some stuff will get a second season, maybe not. And I just like it. This idea of bringing back the mini series, I think is such a great idea. Yeah, I mean, there's a different conversation to have with like, I feel like with the Marvel, as much as I like the fact that it's like six episodes, they can be pretty tight. At the same time, I feel like
00:49:03
Speaker
they sort of shot, like it's almost the inverse of it, where it's like, they have to get like, they have to tell the story within six episodes. And you're like, you know, you spent like three episodes telling this narrative and now you have to get to bring the villains. And now it's like episode four, so now we need the villain. And now we need to like have the big climax in episode five. And you can sort of see a bit of a structure. And sometimes like, I kind of wish that was like two episodes more, two episodes less, or like this, it's weird, like,
00:49:32
Speaker
I feel like it's almost like, again, it's the inverse problem of the 22 episode season where it's like they don't seem to really, like there are certain shows that could be shorter. There are certain shows that should be longer.
00:49:50
Speaker
One of the things I liked about what WandaVision did, and I know you've got criticisms of that, but I do like how they did play with that format. Like the early episodes, the ones that were very much the sitcom focus, they were 30 minutes. And then as they broke out into the larger story form, then it expanded to like an hour. So I did like that they kind of... And I think Netflix really hit on this, is that we don't have...
00:50:14
Speaker
the network TV hour long bracket with commercial breaks, we don't have that. So we're not limited by that anymore. And I do like that shows are, I mean, there are downsides to that too, because one of the good things about that is, I was reading this book on plotting recently. And one of the things the guy had said was that the nice thing about the hour long block format is it gives you a nice Forex structure.
00:50:42
Speaker
And it gives you a nice place for cliffhangers to have like, okay, there's a cliffhanger here, a commercial break. And you have to have that cliffhanger because that's why people will come back after that commercial break and not switch the channel. Right. And I think, and that's, to your point, like, it's weird. Like, I feel like with everything we're discussing right now, it's like, it's a double-edged sword, you know, where we have, um,
00:51:02
Speaker
One thing I was going to say, like, I love a Peacemaker. It's eight episodes in every episode anywhere between like 45 to 50 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Even the finale, like, which is the other shows would have like an hour long format or like double the size, which I am guilty of my Green Llama audio drama. Like my finale is twice as long as every other episode.
00:51:22
Speaker
What I really appreciated like you, he was like, I have 45 minutes to tell this story. And he told the story within the confines of that and he never felt like over long. Even though he had no limitations in terms of commercial breaks and scheduling and whatever, whatever. Where then you have like the Netflix side of it all.
00:51:43
Speaker
where you look at like Arrested Development. And because they were like, oh, well, we don't have to worry about putting this into 30 minutes. It overextended your storylines to the point of like, this is not funny anymore. Like this is not you're not telling a tight narrative like the box that you were forced to be in because of
00:52:04
Speaker
network needs, it forced you to be more creative. The fact that they couldn't get everybody to at the same time, because one of the things that works so well about those first three seasons was the interactions between those characters. And that really falls apart when everyone has a different schedule, so you have to film them all in isolation and it doesn't work as well.
00:52:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, but even then, like, from what I understand, like, the season after that, where they had them all together, didn't work because they really just couldn't think outside. Like, they thought too far outside the box. And, like, the other side is, like, with, like, Stranger Things, which I haven't enjoyed this season, but, like, there was no reason that finale needed to be two hours long. Like, it really did. And it's, like, you know, like, if they had just confined themselves a little bit, you know, or, like, gave some limitations to them, you know, I...
00:52:57
Speaker
I'm a big proponent of, you know, not necessarily, like people say a thing outside the box and like there's value in that, but I think like the best thing anyone can ever say to me is like, this is your box. This is what you had, like, these are what you can and cannot do. Figure out an interesting story that you can tell with it. And that's a better challenge than, you know,
00:53:19
Speaker
you know, trying to go beyond something, because sometimes it's like I still think one of my favorite stories I've written was my Sherlock Holmes green llama story, because it was a really tough box to fill. It was like, you have the green llama, you have Sherlock Holmes, and he does have a mystery. And like, how do you make that work? And how do you like what are the that's a box that you have to figure out how to make the build the box and like stay inside that box.
00:53:48
Speaker
Yeah, because I had to fit that in. And I think the same thing with Peacemaker, it's like, you look at this, like he had a box, which is he had probably a limited budget.
00:53:59
Speaker
So how big can he actually make this story? So you can only get like eight episodes, 45 minutes. He could only do so many big CGI events. So a lot of the villains, even though there are CGI butterflies,
00:54:19
Speaker
for the most part, you know, like in, you know, a lot of the villains are just people. They're just people. And you have- Well, also you're limited with how many cast members you can probably have on screen at a time because of the COVID stuff going on at the same time as well. Exactly. So like you, you know, and also you look at the way he uses sets. Like he used just this one, like there's a locate, like a headquarters location. There's his house. There's all these specific places that like he revisits.
00:54:48
Speaker
frequently throughout the entire season, um, that uses like the budget and the time to the most effective way, where I think that sometimes like, and this is a different issue. Like I think a lot of, uh, again, I'm sorry to do this, like the, the model versus DC thing. Uh, but like, I think that's something
00:55:07
Speaker
And having a cure like this in the news where like they want all these different options. Right. And so they'll change like the the entire location because they're like, oh, now we want this to be in Budapest, even though we wrote it to be in like downtown, you know, San Francisco. So we have to like rebuild the set.
00:55:27
Speaker
and that because they can do whatever they want, it kind of prevents them from doing what they should. I think that's something I look at with Peacemaker. Again, this is not 100% true. This is a bit of supposition and a bit of my own biases coming in here. But I think that's something that is so interesting when you even look at Suicide Squad, you look at Peacemaker.
00:55:51
Speaker
He clearly thought about how I can do this in the most effective way possible. Tell a story that's true for these characters that move these characters forwards in interesting ways that while still, you know, not being well, not pushing beyond this budget. So we'll we'll shoot this one building where like they have the headquarters will shoot like a like a lot of scenes there. We have like a big
00:56:20
Speaker
climax, we'll shoot it in a bottling plant, you know, like, we'll just shoot the hell out of that location. You know, we have like this big, like finale, we'll shoot a lot of it in like, outside a barn. And, you know, instead of
00:56:36
Speaker
you know, going big and making such a massive sort of like, end of the world storyline, let's shoot it as dynamically as possible. We'll go into like stunts. Don't know what you're saying. I was thinking of Ms. Marvel as you were talking about that because you know, and don't get me wrong, I love Ms. Marvel. I thought it was a great
00:56:53
Speaker
the great first season, but I did find, as I was watching it, I did think that jumping straight from Jersey to Pakistan in the first season was a bit too much. Like I felt like they should have limited it just to Jersey for that first season and then have the second season all set in Pakistan. I think that would have been a much, at least that's how I would have done it. But because they have that ability to do that, I think you're right, having all those options,
00:57:22
Speaker
having those limitations can be very healthy, creatively speaking. You know, we've talked a lot about the story stuff and all that, and I've been going for over an hour now, but we haven't really talked that much about some of the characters. I really want to talk about John Cena, especially, because I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm not a wrestling guy. And for the most part, every time you've got a wrestler making the jump to movies and TV,
00:57:49
Speaker
I roll my eyes because I remember Suburban Commando and when they were trying to make Hulk Hogan a thing back in the day.
00:57:58
Speaker
and when they tried to make Stone Cold Steve Austin a thing. And sometimes it works, right? Sometimes it works. Like, you know, Dwayne Johnson. Yeah, exactly. Dwayne Johnson is, you know, I was very against, like, I avoided seeing a lot of his movies for a while until I finally saw something. I'm like, oh, wow, this guy's actually a lot of fun to watch on screen. I want to see more of this guy.
00:58:20
Speaker
The only reason I watched Fast Five was because of Dwayne Johnson. Because I haven't seen that. I mean, you never saw the Fast Five really?
00:58:29
Speaker
I only saw the first one in Hobbs and Shaw. I think I saw Fast and the Furious 2, like a couple of scenes of it on like TBS. I watched the first two and I'm just like, God, these movies are, I saw the first one and I'm like, God, that's such a piece of shit. And then a buddy of mine dragged us to see 2 Fast 2 Furious. I'm like, oh my God, this is even worse than the first one. And then I'm just like, I've never watched another Fast and Furious movie again. And then when they got to Fast 5 and they said Dwayne Johnson and I'm like,
00:58:57
Speaker
Well, fuck, I gotta watch it. And I stuck through it. And it's funny because the movies, they're ridiculous movies. They're completely ridiculous, but they're fun. And a big part of it, big part of the draw was Dwayne Johnson. And then you had Jason Statham come into. And also, I can't remember the guy's name, but the guy who plays Han, he's also big part of it was just watching him too. Cause he's like the most interesting character of a whole bunch.
00:59:25
Speaker
But then, you know, they killed off Han. And because Dwayne Johnson and Vin Diesel hate each other, they had to spin Dwayne Johnson and Jason Statham off in the Hobbs and Shaw. And then when I watched F9, which brings back Han, but it but, you know, it's got it. Johnson and Statham aren't in it. I'm watching them. It's like, God, this movie sucks.
00:59:46
Speaker
But yeah, so Dwayne Johnson, Dave Bautista, another example, someone who turned out to be a really good fucking actor too. And John Cena is another example. Like I was not expecting much when he was announced for the Suicide Squad. And when I saw it, I'm just like, okay, well, he's fine enough in it. But I wasn't expecting just like how talented a guy he really is.
01:00:13
Speaker
And just hearing about him outside of the scene when he's playing the piano and everything, he's actually a fucking trained pianist. And he can speak fluent Mandarin. And I think one of the reasons why they had that scene in there and showing those long shots of him playing the piano, and so people didn't want to say, nobody was going to, because that way they cut out the idea of someone coming in saying, oh, that's just, they just had a hand model or something come in and play. It's like, nope, that's really him.
01:00:40
Speaker
What I admire so much about John Cena is he seems to be very much aware of the perception people have of him and playing against that. I think they're like, I remember this is one thing where he did this.
01:00:58
Speaker
video about like what it means to be American and like you start watching that you think like oh my god this is gonna be super crazy right wing and this is gonna be really offensive and you're like no this is like all about love and like accepting thy neighbor and like like very progressive ideals um and then like he plays into again the toxic masculinity and playing against it I think one of my like there's so many moments where he is
01:01:26
Speaker
just crying and hating himself and really struggling with the choices he made in really heartbreaking, interesting ways that I don't think you would expect. I mean, look, as great as it is, fun as it is to watch The Rock, he doesn't have the range John Cena does. No, no, not at all. The Rock plays The Rock. You go see it and you're like, he's going to have a great time. The weird thing, I remember seeing a friend of mine did a video on the Fast and the Furious films.
01:01:57
Speaker
Um, and you talk about like how in fast five, he definitely tries to like, he's doing something different. And then it's just like, he's turns into the rock and later episodes or later seasons, uh, seasons or whatever the fuck it's called other movies. Um, and it's like this sort of like winking at the, the audience, like we're going to have a fun time. And it's like,
01:02:15
Speaker
that's but I think that's seen Hobbs and Shaw was definitely like that because I remember I remember reading this one article when it was talking about Jason Statham movies and the writers like don't even fucking pretend like he has a name in these movies he's just Jason Statham and all of them exactly and with with John Cena though you know like he's going to
01:02:36
Speaker
play a character that looks like John Cena, that is canonically bisexual, that is willing to cry and say these kind of offensive things and then re-examine them.
01:02:59
Speaker
You know, I haven't watched the season, the boys, but like in some ways it kind of like based on all the earlier reviews I've heard, it kind of reminds me of some of the conversations people have had around the boys where it's like the alt right. Like, wait, are we the baddies? You know, like, like what? You know, like so it's like with the John Cena, it's just like, how do we explore these very like tender moments and with and heartbreaking moments and
01:03:29
Speaker
what would some people call emasculating moments, but under the visage of a guy that looks like John Cena. And I think he is all about challenging
01:03:41
Speaker
again, that perception that people have of him, that like, you know, like people will come to these shows like Peacemaker because like, well, John Cena, he's a badass, look at him, he's got muscles from ear to ear, you know, like he's crazy big and whatever. And then you, he gives you in a performance that shows you a very human side to a character that,
01:04:10
Speaker
would in any other person's hands would be defined by their badassery, their their muscles and like steely face and like it like and he's done roles like that before, but it's clear that like he has less interest in that and he's going to look like John Cena and he's going to be John Cena. He's going to take you on a journey that. I don't know, just adds more depth to
01:04:40
Speaker
a superhero story. Like I think that's, that's like my favorite thing about Peacemaker is that it could have easily just been a shoot them up. Like, let's just go on this adventure with this antihero, this badass antihero. And he kills people and it's badass. And at the end he wins and he gets the girl.
01:05:06
Speaker
And that's not this. And that's partially because of what John Cena wants to bring to these kind of series. Like, even though he doesn't he doesn't get the girl, but he kind of gets the girl at the end with like with hardcore where like he sits by her bedside until she wakes up. But it's also because his character has gone through such dramatic change that he's going to be the one that's going to sit by her bedside and be
01:05:35
Speaker
like the tender, caring man that he could never have been at the beginning. And again, like that goes to what, you know, John Cena is playing into a type where it's like, like, I'm going to fuck this girl and like, I'm going to say all these like big things and my dicks, this and that. And then he ends with like sitting quietly next to a woman's
01:05:58
Speaker
bedside until she's healed enough and doesn't ask anything of her doesn't demand anything of her. It's just like I'm here for you and that's growth. And again, it's not necessarily something a you would expect from someone like him. No, absolutely. Yeah. And
01:06:17
Speaker
No note that was that was perfectly said and I, it's also really it's it's so weird watching this because I get this point, this, the point when they're all talking and Adrian is talking about how
01:06:31
Speaker
you know, John Cena or John Cena Peacemaker came up with nicknames based on everybody's dicks in high school. And then he's like, and then Peacemaker's just like, well, hey, I had a tough time too. And it was like, how did you have a tough time? He's like, well, everybody was calling me bully all the time. It hurt my feelings. And it's a funny line, but at the same point, there's a kind of tragedy to that. There's a kind of tragic truth to that line too. And I'm watching this, I'm like, holy shit, you know,
01:07:01
Speaker
James Gunn took the bully from a high school movie and made me care about him. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's, but again, the kind of goes back to what we were talking before, like this exploration of toxic masculinity and like how it like, it's, you know, it's funny, like you could
01:07:21
Speaker
I listened to yesterday, Rock in the Suburbs by Ben Folds Five. You don't know how, what's the lyric? Y'all don't know what it's like to be a middle class white boy or something like that. You don't know what it's like to be a male middle class and white. That was it. And obviously that's played for laughs. And there are aspects of like John Cena's character of the piecemaker that is played for laughs, but it's like,
01:07:49
Speaker
It kind of says like, yes, this is what it's like being middle class and white. Like this is what happens to you and it's not okay. And like how you how people act because of this is not okay. And this is why we need to re-examine it.
01:08:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's unlike any other TV show, any other superhero show that's ever been made. And I think that's, yeah. And it was, you're confronted, I love how they confront him with that. And I think that's what makes the, the economist scene with, when he talks about dying his beard. Yeah. So great. Like I found myself really kind of connecting with him in that moment. Yeah. And just like, and then, you know, and you just look at,
01:08:27
Speaker
cutting away from him and showing Peacemaker's reaction as he's listening to that over the comms. It was just, and you see him real, and you see it, and again, John Cena's such a fucking good actor. Like I get him, taking him, blowing away expectations. Like the, you can see his emotional, his like gut wrenching emotional reaction when he hears that.
01:08:47
Speaker
and just like, oh fuck. And it's very much a, are we the baddies moment type of thing. Yeah. He didn't, like, he doesn't understand. Like he honestly thought like, Oh, I'm just like, he would even, there were scenes to this effect where he's like, we're like, Hey, it's happening. He's like, I'm just joking around. And he's like, he doesn't see that. He doesn't understand it. And because of his journey in this story, he's like, Oh, I see it now. I understand what I'm doing and that it's not okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um,
01:09:17
Speaker
What else do I want to talk about? I also want to talk just a little bit. I wanted to mention one of my favorite exchanges in this whole series is when Vigilante's in prison and he goes up to the Aryan group and he says, he's like, you guys seem like the coolest ones here. Let's all pick a topic and everybody go around and say their opinion. So let's start with what is everybody's favorite black contributions to American culture? And it's just like,
01:09:46
Speaker
I went back and I re-watched that scene like three times and I laughed my ass off every single fucking time. God, what a, like, yeah. And that's again, like, you know, you look at vigilante and I think that I even love like, wherever it's like, well, everyone kind of, he says to, to piece me, you're like, everyone says you're kind of racist. You know, it's like, not really. And it's like, and then you have like, again, this, a character that one would expect
01:10:11
Speaker
to be in a certain lane, essentially. And he comes in and does something completely different, which is like, listen, you outright pieces of shit. You are pieces of shit. And it's one of my favorite parts of just the, again, the takedown of racist white Americans and showing them to be as,
01:10:38
Speaker
as disgusting and hateful as they really, as they are. Oh God. And you know, Robert Patrick too. He just such a great job. And that like, I found myself fucking hating Robert Patrick by the end of that show. And I'm just like, well, that's why he's doing such a good job. You know, and that's, that's one of those things where it's, what's interesting is like, he is a very religious person. I found like, if you look at his, like his, his Twitter account, like it does say like, you know, talks a lot about God, but like it shows it like,
01:11:06
Speaker
because he's able to be someone of faith and still play a character like that and know that what he, I mean, unless, you know, it doesn't seem like this is the case, like he is playing this character knowing what this character is saying and why this character is pathetic and hateful and should be hated, you know, but still being like a God-fearing man, like it shows that like,
01:11:29
Speaker
You know, as someone who is, I would say agnostic, like you can still be religious and understand like you should be an asshole. Yeah, you know.
01:11:40
Speaker
And that's, I think that's like, that's like when like, oh, like when I saw that I was, if, I'll put it this way, if I hadn't seen Peacemaker, I would have assumed like, oh my God, he's an asshole and a piece of shit. But then you're like, oh, no, no, no, he's, he's just religious. And he also can be able to like play an alt piece of shit and understand like, this is what this character is saying. Well, I mean, just like there's toxic masculinity, I think there's also toxic religiosity. And I think that, and yet there's a definite,
01:12:09
Speaker
And you see this, too. Like, if you look at, you know, some religious groups in, like, you know, Latin America, like the Catholic groups in Latin America are progressive as fuck. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And it's like all the like the whole liberation theology and all that kind of stuff. And you compare it to what goes on here and you realize, like, if you actually and, you know, I'm not a religious person, but I'm an atheist, but I've
01:12:33
Speaker
You know, definitely looked at stuff and you look at, you know, and this is a larger conversation, but but you look at like what, you know, Jesus is saying his word stuff. It's like.
01:12:45
Speaker
pretty fucking socialist type of stuff he's saying there. Yeah, he really is. And yeah, and I do like that he, and looking at Robert Patrick, I would have assumed he's a right-winger and all that, but, and so then seeing him play against that kind of type, by playing like what you think he is, what the, again, kind of like John Cena. John Cena is playing into the perception of what you think he is.
01:13:12
Speaker
And it's telling us more about them both in the process, too. Sorry, I really, really wants petting it right now. He actually wants food, but he's really enjoying this ear rub. You guys can't see it because we're on audio, but right now my cat is in the middle of the frame, drooling on everyone. Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. OK, sorry about that. You don't have to keep that in, but you should. OK.
01:13:40
Speaker
Also, Leota was an interesting addition to this cast, too, because, again, I didn't know what to expect going in with her, because I'd seen her. She's a good actress. I'd seen her in Orange and the New Black before I gave up on that show, and she was great in it. I loved her in that show. It was funny, in that show, like, all the supporting cast became so much more interesting than the main actress. Yeah, I, yeah, I've experienced that. Like, that's,
01:14:05
Speaker
It's one of my challenges of the book I'm writing where like a lot of the other characters a little bit more interesting than the the two principles. Anyway, another conversation. But yeah, tying her into Amanda Waller and all that and and it was it showed interesting side of Amanda Waller too, because, you know, you meet Leota, you find out she's Amanda Waller's daughter, but she's also she's also a lesbian, she's married and you
01:14:32
Speaker
You'd almost expect the expectation would be like her and Waller have an antagonistic relationship. They're strange. But you don't get that sense. Like even in the brief moments we see her, we get kind of a more humanizing view of Waller than we saw in two movies.
01:14:50
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's like, again, the benefit of a show like Peacemaker where you can take these characters that you thought you understand them and let's add some more dynamics to them. So like to your point of having a
01:15:03
Speaker
the daughter of Amanda Waller be one of the principal characters and have a loving relationship with her mother, you know, it makes Amanda Waller more interesting because now she's like, she's not just like this cold hearted, you know, monster who will kill women and children if it means protecting the country. You know, she's kind of like, she is exactly what Peacemaker says he is.
01:15:32
Speaker
she also has like a loving or she's able to like she clearly fell in love or at least had a relationship with a man or I mean, let's be honest, maybe like got artificially disseminated doesn't matter. Point is that she was able to raise a child, raise a child that loves her and that she loves in turn. And that's like that just makes her just a more interesting villain or anti hero or whatever, because it's like, oh, no, she's not just this one note. It's
01:16:02
Speaker
She is a human being. And that's, again, like the best part, even like economists and hardcore characters that like were secondary, just there, they become so much more dynamic because of the story, the adventure that they have here.
01:16:18
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the Leo's relationship with Waller and Peacemaker's relationship with White Dragon, it's interesting too because they're both playing different sides of it because in both cases, they're the kids of monsters. Yeah. Yeah, I've been thinking about that. Yeah, that's a good point. But also, they show that in different ways because, you know, Amanda Waller is a monster in this one aspect of her life, but
01:16:45
Speaker
by all accounts, it seems like she's a loving mother. It seems like she's got a good relationship with her daughter. And so that creates conflict for Leota where she's like, I love my mother, but she's doing some fucked up shit. And it's hard for me to reconcile the fact that, look, she's always been good to me, but she's, and whereas Peacemaker has something similar but different where it's, you know,
01:17:12
Speaker
this guy's a piece of shit. He's always been a piece of shit to me, but I still want him to accept me.
Complex Family Dynamics in Peacemaker
01:17:18
Speaker
And it's an interesting way to play with those dynamics where in some, it's also kind of...
01:17:27
Speaker
they both kind of want what the other has in some way, right? Like you almost get the sense that, you know, obviously, you know, Peacemaker wishes he had a loving relationship with his father, even if his father's a monster. Whereas Leota, you almost, when she's, that scene when she's talking to Vigilante and she's telling him about Peacemaker's dad, I kind of felt like in some ways she was talking about her mother too.
01:17:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, like, the only thing like we don't know how much she knows about her mother at that point, like, but at the same time, it's like, yeah, there's just so many, I just like, again, what I really love about this series, and this is and it's honestly, it's challenged me with my own writing, where it's like,
01:18:16
Speaker
I want every character to have some semblance of an arc. You know, I think that's like, you and I are our pulp writers, or at least we got to start in pulp. And I think there was one of the biggest things that I always struggled with.
01:18:33
Speaker
when I was working in in pulp primarily was the sort of expectation of like, you know, everything kind of moves by for the plot. You know, a lot of the characters aren't very dynamic. They're sort of like, they're there to sort of serve a function narratively.
01:18:51
Speaker
And I see like a lot of that happened with some of the weaker superhero films that have come out in recent memory, like the characters are there to serve a function. They don't really do much of anything. So like for me, like I, you know, I've tried to challenge myself as a writer to be like, all right, I want these characters to grow. I want them to have wants and needs.
01:19:13
Speaker
You know, I seen that I was working on today. We sort of talked about this at the beginning. I'm not sure if we talked about on the show before we started, but like I was struggling with scene where like this character needs has a want and a need. And it's it. What is his want? I don't know what his want is. It's like I'm having these moments in these conversations, but.
01:19:31
Speaker
These conversations mean nothing if I don't understand what this character wants and why they want that. And you look at a show like coming off a show like Peacemaker, it's like, right. That's what I need to do. I need to figure out like.
01:19:45
Speaker
I need all the characters and to varying degrees because like you can't have every character have an arc like no one's that great of a writer. I am definitely not. Well, I mean, you're just limited by how much time you have to. Exactly. And it's like so I want to be able to like but like looking at Peacemaker, it's like
01:20:03
Speaker
You know you have the central cast of this group of peacemaker hardcore economy most vigilante and Liotta, even more like all these six characters like all sort of go through some semblance of an arc like summer bigger than others, you know.
01:20:22
Speaker
But it's what makes the series. It makes me want to be a better writer because I'm like, you can do this. You should be doing this. Like you should have like everyone's arc feeding into everyone. Others arcs that way.
01:20:34
Speaker
when they all work together and see the day at the end, it means something. And I think that's like, look, I mean, that was like, it's weird when you look at like the Snyder Cut, for example, which is, you know, if you wanna think about it at the same way, it's, you can, you boil the story down. It's like, it is about a guy with trust issues, building a team, you know, it's Batman, then like building a team, it's Peacemaker building a team.
01:21:03
Speaker
you know, none of the characters really kind of go through that journey, not even like Cyborg, who is arguably the audience surrogate in that movie. I was, you know, like he just kind of like, he's like, I'm Cyborg. And I watch a movie once and never watch it again. So it's like, it's,
01:21:26
Speaker
It is really refreshing. It is a masterclass in writing and storytelling. There are flaws to the show as there are every show.
Impactful Storytelling Techniques
01:21:38
Speaker
One thing that is not a flaw is that opening title sequence. And if I did not- Oh, Jesus Christ, yes, yeah. Yeah. If it's the last thing I say on this podcast, that is one of those things
01:21:51
Speaker
The opening title sequence, if you had said to me in isolation, this is a they have the cast of Peacemaker dancing to a Swedish rock, hard rock song as the title. I like that sounds terrible. Like, why would anyone who wants this?
01:22:08
Speaker
Why does anyone want this? And then you see it, and it's literally the most charming thing you've ever seen. It is fun, it's bombastic, it's well choreographed, and it could be something that
01:22:26
Speaker
What's interesting about it, it comes off as initially funny, but then becomes like, because of the way the story evolves, it takes on new meaning every single time. When they cut to the music and it's like, they're having a fight and it's like, oh, this means something different now and seeing them dance to it and like the characters that die along the way, seeing them again.
01:22:49
Speaker
I say this, again, this is I think the biggest thing, like I look at something like this Peacemaker and I wanna, like this title sequence, if we're talking about the microcosms, like I'm showing it to other like franchise, like this is what you can do. Don't do this, but this is what you can do. You look at, that title sequence is just, if you skip it, you're a monster. Like it's, how can you not watch it every single time? Every single time.
01:23:16
Speaker
And like I've said before, my daughter goes fucking ape shit over that title sequence. Like last night, she was screaming just before I started watching. And then the episode changed and the intro started. And as soon as she heard, just like.
01:23:30
Speaker
and she starts clapping, she starts getting all excited. And she fucking loves it. One time I was, I download, I bought that song because I loved that title so much. And one time we were in the car and I just put the song on and she's like, ooh, and then she starts getting excited again. She fucking loves that title sequence. She loves all title sequences, but that one is like far and away the one she has the biggest reaction to. It's also like, yeah, go on.
01:23:56
Speaker
And it's like, you know, now the streaming stuff, they have the skip intro thing. And I take advantage of that a lot. I do that a lot. Like, especially when you're binge watching something, like I was watching, I just finished the first season of True Detective.
01:24:11
Speaker
you know, great series and great title sequence. HBO does amazing title sequences. But still, and same thing with like Daredevil, right? That opening title scenes of Daredevil. Amazingly well done. Still, after, when I'm rewatching those shows, I'm just like, okay, I'll watch it like the first few times after, by the time I get to like episode three, I'm hitting the skip intro button. I've seen Peacemaker twice now. Yeah.
01:24:41
Speaker
every time that skip intro button comes up, I'm just like, no, no, go away. Cause it's no, I'm going to sit there and I'm going to sit there and I'm going to watch that whole title sequence. Not only that, I have seen that title sequence every time I've watched this show. So 16 times watching all these episodes and I've seen it multiple times on YouTube, probably 10 times as many as that on YouTube. Same, same. Cause it's, it's,
01:25:06
Speaker
also again it goes to James Gunn's strengths as a filmmaker and it's very it's a very particular style but there is so much thought put into that show like that uh that um opening title sequence it's not just like charming and fun and it's like a unique but also it's like who are the three people you see like it's uh first it's
01:25:30
Speaker
Peacemaker and then it's Leota and Vigilante, cause they're like tiny, like, you know, and then it's like Murr and hardcore come out and then how they're introduced. And then you can see like judo master hiding in the, in the corners here and there. And then like just popping out and then. Eagerly coming down and like checking his step, like his, his placement. It's like little things like that. It just lingers at the end after they do that big money shot. And then it just like, yeah. And then it gets awkward. I love that. Yeah.
01:25:58
Speaker
And it, but like, it's, it's so endearing and I, it's funny. It's like, I feel like.
01:26:03
Speaker
you look at, and they both sort of had their big blow up with Marvel films, like you look at Taquatiti and James Gunn, I think, and I don't know, I love Taquatiti, but also I feel like he's got a little too much in his own style, but he's kind of lost himself a bit. He's like, well, I can do whatever I want now, because I'm Taquatiti, and you're like, bring it back, bring it back. And I feel like with James Gunn, it's like he,
01:26:33
Speaker
succeeded so much with it's weird i'll put it this way like i think the best thing that the best worst thing that happened was uh him getting fired off gardeners galaxy volume three um because the best worst things is best is we got the suicide squad and peacemaker and now we're getting a gardeners galaxy volume three from him we're getting we're literally getting the best of both worlds but i think it also allowed him to sort of like
James Gunn's Career and Style
01:26:57
Speaker
take a step back and be on his back foot and be like okay like what like how do I work my self-weight back from this you know he made the right choice and you know I you know when it all all went down he didn't like go on like a twitter tirade he just kind of kept himself quiet you know everyone came up to his defense and then Warner Brothers was like hey you know you're clearly not that bad of a deal let's bring you over and he's like all right I'm
01:27:23
Speaker
going to just focus on this and make it as good as I can, which allowed him to then do Peacemakers, which also allowed Marvel to be able to fight you, say, look, we want this guy here. We're going to fight for him. I feel like Taika, where he has gotten success after success after success, that he's
01:27:48
Speaker
he's kind of not been able to sort of see outside himself, if that makes sense. And it's a different conversation. No, no. It feels a lot like Chris Nolan in that sense, too, because I feel like Nolan had very much the same thing where he had all these successes. And then by the time you get to Interstellar, it's just like, OK, you bought into your own hype now. Yeah, that's it. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. And yeah, I think I think you're right. I think James Gunn had and.
01:28:14
Speaker
Maybe he's just naturally like that, or maybe it is because of him getting fired, whatever the case, he does have that more disciplined approach. And I think that's where he's got this very unique style, but still he's disciplined enough to not let that style overcome everything else. He's able to mold himself to the needs of the project. Yeah. Also, let's not...
01:28:45
Speaker
this is a different conversation but like Gunn writes his stuff he writes the stuff and he makes sure it's as strong as possible before he gets on set um whereas Taika is very improv heavy which is which is kind of the Marvel style they're very not like necessarily improv in the way that
01:29:05
Speaker
Taika is, but they're sort of like, make it up as they go. Right. Where Gunn is like, and this is my script. I know exactly the song I'm using at exactly this moment. And that's why I like, we're going to license it now before we even get to the set. Oh, yeah. I mean, you could rewatching the show the second time I could see it. I'm just like, you can tell.
01:29:25
Speaker
gun is someone who cares about structure because like there's so many Chekov guns elements in Peacemaker. Oh yeah. Like it's just it was insane like you know there's the very first episode and they mentioned like why do we have a piano here? Why do we need a piano here? When was that ever going to come in to be useful? And then later you have this scene where Peacemaker plays the piano and just like little things like that happen constantly throughout the show where they introduce something and then it comes back in some way.
01:29:51
Speaker
Yeah, and also play like in even ways that you don't expect like the chainsaw. Yeah, yeah. Like he's like, oh my God, it's a chainsaw. And then like, it's not like the chainsaw is there and you think Vigilante is going to use it, but then like Akatamos uses it. And it's like, it doesn't, it's a Chekhov's gun in a way that you don't expect. And the even like Vigilante is like, I was supposed to use that. Like they play into that sort of structure idea, but then you also have, but it pays off
01:30:18
Speaker
the arc of economist and peacemaker becoming friends. Yeah. Where it's like that moment, like that's when they become allies. Yeah. But you need it like they set it up there so it could pay off over here. Yeah, it's, you know, look, I hesitate to say like Gunn is one of the best living directors because he's not, but I think he is one of the
01:30:44
Speaker
like epitomies of what you want for a journeyman director these days. Someone that comes in with, who can go from, literally go from Marvel to DC and back again and tell stories that fit within their universes that still feel like a James Gunn story. It's still like that, you know, again, going back to what we said before, like Peacemaker feels like it fits into the Snyderverse every way and every single way, but it still feels like a James Gunn film.
01:31:14
Speaker
It still feels like something that's true to him, that it was with his voice. The Guardians of the Galaxy movies all fit within the house style of Marvel.
01:31:26
Speaker
but not to knock the other movies with Guardians of the Galaxy, but they feel off when they're not being written and directed by Gunn. Well, I mean, to that point, when they did Infinity War, that scene with some of the Guardian stuff in that movie, they brought in Gunn to do it himself because they couldn't really get it the same way. So I think it was especially the,
01:31:54
Speaker
I think the Star Lord and Gamora scene was definitely done. Yeah. And then I think the, I think when you first see them when they're, when they're flying through space, I think that may have been done as well. I'm not sure, but. I believe it. I also like, but like even then, like you look at him and them in the love and thunder and it's like, something's off. Like. Right. It's not the same. Yeah. It's not the same. So yeah, it's.
01:32:19
Speaker
I aspire to not necessarily, I do aspire. I do aspire to be like a James Gunn like person where someone's like can look at my work and be like, oh wow, this Adam Garcia wrote this. Adam Garcia wrote this. But also this feels like a Spider-Man story. Like this feels like a, a Star Wars story or a Star Trek story, whatever I get to write one day. It's just like, you know, this feels like, this feels true to the spirit of the thing that I'm reading, but also no one else could have written this. And I think that's the biggest thing.
01:32:49
Speaker
And it's, it's, it's weird because there's, there's something to be said about being like a chameleon type who can go into different areas. So, for example, Joe Casey, do you, do you heard of Joe Casey's comics? A few of them. Okay, so I've been on a bit of, I'm doing
01:33:07
Speaker
a reword of Adventures of Superman for another pod, is Adventures of Superman for another podcast. And so I was going back and it just coincidentally, someone came on the Patreon show and wanted to talk about The Bounce, which is this superhero comic he did for Image a few years back. And it got me thinking about him and just like how he's very much a chameleon type of writer, right? Unless you see the name on it, you can't necessarily tell it's a Joe Casey story just by reading the story.
01:33:36
Speaker
you can tell a Grant Morrison story just by reading the story, right? If you read a Grant Morrison story, you know you're reading a Grant Morrison story. Whereas James Gunn is in this unique position that not very many writers have, maybe not very many writers, not very many directors have, where they can be unique and chameleon-like at the same time. Right. Yeah. And I think
01:34:03
Speaker
Peacemaker is such a epitomizes that it shows that like you can take a character in the from a larger universe self very specific story.
01:34:18
Speaker
and have a very specific voice and a point of view, but still feels true to everything that you've seen before and will come later if we
Hopes for Peacemaker's Future
01:34:28
Speaker
hope. Right, yeah, yeah. Okay, so any final thoughts we want to say about Peacemaker? Just, I really hope it's the second season. I like, especially with all the HBO Max stuff, I'll put it this way, I...
01:34:43
Speaker
Once I'm very satisfied with this first season, it's a really good beginning, middle and end. Like if there are no seconds, if there isn't a second season that's right for Cena and Gunn to continue the narrative, I'm kind of okay with that because it's such a good story that like, if you ended here, I'm okay. At the same time, I'm really sad it's over. Like I really, I like re-washing it made me miss the characters a lot. So if we have a second season,
01:35:12
Speaker
you know, I want it to be the right story. I want to be, you know, obviously I want Gunn to be as involved with this season as he was in the second, the first season. I just, yeah, I, I, I'm of two minds. I want it really badly, but I'm okay if I don't get it. Yeah, I'm kind of thinking of the same thing because there is that whole idea of
01:35:31
Speaker
Because I can use Superman and Lois as an example because I just finished the second season of that. I love the first season of Superman and Lois, I like the second season I, I don't, you know, I still like, I still love the show I like, but there was kind of a feeling of
01:35:48
Speaker
we're playing the same song just with some different beats here and there. And there's, you know, you start off with what you think is a classic Superman villain. And then there's a flip halfway into the season. It turns out to be another Superman villain. There's an invasion of sorts. There's a flashback episode in the latter half. And it's like the same beats keep happening throughout
01:36:13
Speaker
both season one and season two. And which, and I don't, I'm not saying that I wish it had been ended at season one. Like I'm just saying that I wish that they'll do something a little bit different with season two. So when it comes to Peacemaker, I kind of had the same feeling where it's like, and I don't think we're really at risk with gun doing this because I don't think he's, he seems to have enough creative freedom where he doesn't have anyone saying like, this is the way it has to be. And he's so involved in his projects where
01:36:43
Speaker
something like Superman and Lois, you've got a writer's room, you've got a show runner, you've got network executives. So there's a lot of input going into that. And so it's very easy to just say, okay, let's just do the same thing we did and just add some different things in it. Whereas James Gunn, I think is enough, he has enough control over it by this point where, I mean, he wrote and directed every single episode of this.
01:37:05
Speaker
He wrote every episode. He did not direct it. Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. I thought it was every episode he directed. But still, he had so much control over so many aspects of it. So he was able to say, and you probably felt this the same as a writer too. What I've been doing with my books is I had this
01:37:25
Speaker
the Luther Cross series turned out to be very successful. And then after that, I got to a point where, as I'm getting to the fourth or fifth book, I'm like, I don't want to keep writing just this character forever. And eventually, so then I spun off to another series. I just finished that with the fifth book that just came out. And now I'm going to be doing another series, but all set in the same world. And I feel like,
01:37:45
Speaker
Gunn has similar type of field where he's like, I know what I want to do. I know how much I want to do. And I'm going to try to keep it interesting for me. So I think if we get a second season, I don't think I'm worried about it being diluted or anything like that. Yeah, no, I agree. Well, on that note, is there anything you would like to see in a second season?
01:38:14
Speaker
I just the characters back. That's kind of all I honestly like in terms of like, I don't really know what this so this is.
01:38:22
Speaker
a larger conversation, but something that I've kind of come to realize, like while there are definitely things that I kind of want for comfort food, television, or movies, or books, whatever, like comfort food entertainment, I've come to realize that the things that really stick with me are the stories that surprise me, the ones that don't necessarily, that I don't, partially because
01:38:48
Speaker
I'm so ingrained in because I am a storyteller and I sort of like think about these beats. The stories that really stick with me are the ones that do nothing that I expect, you know, so I really want to go into a Peacemaker series like
01:39:06
Speaker
kind of like, I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, I did not know what was going to happen in the season and it was everything I wanted to be and more. It's like, I just want to see these characters continue to grow and change. And, you know, I want to see a little bit of expansion of the cast, but like, like a character or two. Right. I don't want to see like an exponential like growth.
01:39:31
Speaker
So yeah, I really don't, I just want to be surprised. I want to go into the series not knowing what the show could be and let it be whatever it wants to be. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's pretty good note to end on. I was trying to think about this too before it was like, what would I want to see in a second season? And again, I don't know because Gunn seems to have the freedom to kind of, and like we were saying with the vigilante thing, you know, if I want, if there's like some,
01:39:59
Speaker
character I wanted from the DC universe to pop up or anything like that. Gunn's just going to do his own thing with it anyway, so it's not going to matter. Right. You know, it would be fun. Like, it's not going to happen. But like, I would love to see like Shazam show up. Like, you know, again, I'm biased because I love Shazam. But like,
01:40:17
Speaker
how would that character interact with a character like Peacemaker and how and with Gunn's voice? That would be interesting, like sort of like seeing if I were to see like another character from the DC universe, like that's a pre-established and how they would sort of interact with this world. Like, again, like the that's my one of my favorite parts of like the Justice League cameo at the end, where it's. It's the characters that you know, and they look the way you know them, but they sound right for this storyline.
01:40:46
Speaker
You know, I was thinking of no, I just thought of is I love Green Arrow. And there's that there's that scene where he when he talks to me, mentions Green Arrow about the Brody Conventions. And it's like he's got all these different, you know, things. And again, just great job of incorporating yourself into the world. It's just like where he's dropping all these little nuggets about superheroes like, you know, you know, I wonder woman. I I fucked me at a party. It was one time and and.
01:41:13
Speaker
And he's like, and just like, and with the flash, everyone who met him thinks he's a colossal dick. Yeah. But there was, but I wouldn't like because one of the things that have kind of annoyed me as a Green Arrow fan is we've never really kind of seen
01:41:29
Speaker
that version, my version of Green Arrow on screen, except in like Justice League Unlimited, right? Where it's like, you know, we had him on Smallville, we had him in Arrow, but he was basically just Batman in both of those. And knowing what Gunn does with like toxic masculinity and all that, and just like his progressive use, I would kind of want to see what he would do with Green Arrow and with that idea of like, you know, this,
01:41:57
Speaker
basically Bernie Sanders with the bow and arrow type of character. I wanna double back on the Shazam thing. Okay, so now I wanna see this. It won't happen. But I would love to have one of those moments of, they're talking about superheroes that they know. Like, oh man, yeah, Shazam loves hanging out with kids, man. He likes hanging out with kids. It's fucked up, he hangs out with kids a lot. And then Shazam's like, it's like, I am a fucking kid.
01:42:24
Speaker
And it's just like, that's, that was what I would love to see. Like, that is, that feels true for the universe and like, you're gonna have, like, I would just, I wouldn't see Zach Levi say it, but I would love to see him go, Shazam, because I am a fucking kid, you dipshit. Like, seeing Billy Batson say that, that would be funny. That would be hilarious. That would be interesting. Yeah, that would be pretty cool.
01:42:46
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. Adam, thanks so much for coming on again. This was a lot of fun. Always, always a pleasure, my
Adam Lance Garcia's Projects and Podcast Details
01:42:52
Speaker
friend. Tell people where they can find you. You can find me at Adam Lance Garcia on Twitter, Adam Lance, Adam L Garcia on Instagram. And you can find a lot of my writings on Amazon. Just search Adam Lance Garcia. And listen to my audio drama, The Green Llama. The first season is now available on all your favorite podcasters. That's Green Llama 1L. And we're working on season two.
01:43:16
Speaker
Oh, nice. So this episode is actually gonna drop probably in October. So what's your timeframe on that? Oh, I have no idea. I mean, and like, I think I'm also trying to find out like,
01:43:30
Speaker
there might be some other stuff coming out, but I don't have debt. Like I know I have a story from heavy metal coming out. I have a sense of fire is coming out from heavy metal as well. I just don't have time timelines on those things. It's the point that like, I'm like, is it still happening? And I'm waiting to hear back for approval on another story that won't come out until
01:43:53
Speaker
2023, and I am not at liberty to discuss what that is yet. Not that I signed an NDA, but I don't want to jinx it. Okay. But yeah, you'll know when it happens. Everyone's gonna know. I'm gonna make sure of it. It was the coolest email I've ever received. And so, but beyond that, like, yeah.
01:44:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's, I have no, I just don't know. Okay, all right, all right, fair enough. All right, well, and that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website. And we're SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And if you sign up for the Patreon at even as little as $1 a month, you get these episodes a week in advance. And we've also got the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club companion show where we're talking about comics and graphic novels. Thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time.
01:44:47
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points if you're interested in reading some comics but don't know where you should start.
01:45:11
Speaker
Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else. On all of this, for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash supercinemahot and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support, and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:45:51
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.