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Fantastic Four (2005)
380 Plays3 years ago
Kelen "B-Hyphen" Conley returns for another double feature. And this time out, we're looking back on the Tim Story Fantastic Four films that introduced Chris Evans to most Marvel fans. There's a lot more good in this movie than people remember, even if it is hampered by some poor writing and at least one very spectacular miscast.
Check out Kelen's links for more about his podcasts
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Transcript
Character Traits in Comics
00:00:32
Speaker
You think that's funny, Pebbles? Johnny. What? You gave us names? You don't think. So now you're the face of the Fantastic Four? A faceless about to be broken. Look, this isn't permanent, Johnny. We need to be careful until we're normal again. What if I don't want to be normal? I didn't turn into a monster. Ben!
00:00:39
Speaker
We can do this at home.
00:01:02
Speaker
That's her, Trickerbell! You wanna fly? Then fly! Wait a minute, guys. Ben, don't do this. Let's see if we can get blood from the star. Let's see. Bring it, bird, out. You two need a timeout! Talk to Blockhead. He started it! I don't care! Dammit, Johnny! Ben, wait!
00:01:34
Speaker
What? You need to control yourself. Think before you act. Yeah, but see, that's your problem. You always think you never act. What if we got these powers for a reason? What if it's like some higher calling? A higher calling like getting girls and making money? Is there any higher? You know what, Reed? This is who we are. Accept it. Or better yet, enjoy it.
00:02:04
Speaker
Wait, Ben! Slow down! He didn't mean it. You know, Johnny, he's always been a hothead. I hate him! It's them! I can't live like this. Just give Reed a little more time. You know how he works, analyzing every little step before he takes one. Well, it's easy for you to be patient. No, it's not! I thought I was done waiting for Reed, but I... We're all in this together, Ben. Together?
00:02:34
Speaker
Susie, look at me. You've got no idea what I. What I give to be invisible.
Current Media Consumption
00:02:46
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and welcoming back returning guests for yet another double feature, and that is Kellen Connelly. How are you doing today?
00:02:57
Speaker
What up though, Perry? How are you, buddy? I'm doing good. So before we jump into the movie, one thing I've thought about talking about on this show lately is just kind of talking about any things, not necessarily specifically related to superheroes, but any sort of media or comics or books or movies, TV shows, anything we're consuming right now that we're really into. So what have you been watching? What have you been reading these days?
00:03:25
Speaker
I actually I had a friend give me access to his Marvel Unlimited. And instead, I actually have been reading some of the recent Spider-Man issues because I fell off Amazing Spider-Man fell off the series like in the middle of one of a brand new day years ago. And like I kind of was around for Superior Spider-Man, but that's it. So I'm actually reading where Ben Raleigh came back and like was Spider-Man essentially like they had the trademark and everything beyond the beyond stuff. Right.
00:03:53
Speaker
Beyond. Yes. Yeah. I'm like part. I think I'm two parts into that. And I'm really enjoying that. I've read the entire Ben Raleigh's Scarlet Spider series and it ended really who is not ready for that that landing. As far as TV goes, I just finished Better Call Saul when it wrapped its whole series finale. So that that was incredible. What an incredible run they had.
00:04:16
Speaker
And of course, I'm still pretty geeked up about Stranger Things 4. I haven't watched it in over a month, but I was very happy with how that series progressed.
Spider-Man Clone Saga Deep Dive
00:04:26
Speaker
I think I'm two trades into the Spider and Beyond stuff myself, so I've been keeping up with those. Yeah, that's good stuff.
00:04:35
Speaker
that Ben's finally coming around again. As much as I love Peter David, that Scarlet Spider run didn't really do it for me. Oh, man. I keep debating if I want to do something on the pod about it, because it's not worth it. Because when I first heard about Ben coming back, I was like, all right, how are they going to do this? And then I was like,
00:04:54
Speaker
I kind of realized he was like the jackal and blah, blah, blah. And this is like his redemption story. And the story started off really awkwardly. He stuck the landing in the middle and it's like, okay, this is going someplace. And then the ending was just kind of like, I feel like they're like, we're going to cancel the book. He's like, okay, deal with this. Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:15
Speaker
So, yeah, it was weird because for like there's like a good decade when Marvel kept teasing us with the Scarlet Spider. So it's first like we got we're having the Scarlet Spider come back, but it's Kane. It's not bad. Yeah, it's like we're having Ben come back. But now he's like kind of evil. So. Right. He's doing the same thing. The Jackal would do back in 1995. Yeah.
00:05:38
Speaker
And then sadly, I decided tonight I was going to read, I blame Paul Herman for this because he was doing his podcast on YouTube last night and they were all talking about maximum clonage alpha, maximum clonage omega, which I've never read. So alpha is okay. I agree with my man, Spidey dude. And it's okay. But clonage is drawn or omega is drawn so badly, Perry. The story is so stupid.
00:06:07
Speaker
There's a, they had released a few years back. They had released a full, there's like a full set. There's something like four or five, maybe even six trades of like the entire clone saga. Yeah. I have a couple back here. Yeah. And they had them on sale on Comixology a while back. So I bought the whole thing. Like they were like, you know, five bucks a pop or something like that. Oh, that's not bad at all. So yeah. So I bought the whole thing and I read it all the way from start to finish. And it's my first time just sitting down and reading the whole clone saga from start to finish. And
00:06:37
Speaker
And I had two thoughts of it. First off, it's not as bad as everyone remembers it. There's some really good stuff in there. Second thought was, God damn, this thing is way too long.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And the problem is, and I don't know if you ever read any of the behind the scenes stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they kept saying how they just kept tagging stuff along because the books were selling like hotcakes between they had the Spider-Man group and X-Men group and Marvel's making all this money hand over fist. And the next thing you know, they're going bankrupt and they're like, we're still stuck with this story, guys. And they had like six different ending points. And first was going to be when May died and it was going to be after maximum clonage. And then
00:07:17
Speaker
And they drug it all the way out for three years. So there was a lot of good ideas in there. There was a lot of cool moments, but it just got too convoluted. Eventually they had to figure out a way to cap it. And somehow in retrospect, because I know a lot of people would have happened at the time was like, there's no way. Norman Osborn being the reason it all happened kind of worked out.
00:07:40
Speaker
Yeah, kind of. It's still messy, but it mostly came together and had something of a resolution. Like you were saying with One More Day, it does hold up better than One More Day, so there's that. Oh, yeah. Of course.
Lovecraft Country Review
00:08:02
Speaker
But what I've been into, I just finished Lovecraft Country, so I finally got to that. I've heard great things about it. I was told to watch it, and then it got canceled, and then I was like, oh, man, well, I don't know if we want to start it, but I've heard it's an amazing show. It's good to watch, and it actually is pretty self-contained, so it's not like it ends on a cliffhanger or anything. It actually has a pretty decent ending.
00:08:24
Speaker
Um because mostly it it was the whole first season uh was based on the book and it's only one book they only just recently came out with the sequel to that book so okay so season two was just going to be something like completely new and original so that they would have to come up with older oh yeah yeah okay and they had started to work on it when it got canceled uh they started writing it when they got canceled but uh but i will say it's pretty good um one thing is episode eight there's a
00:08:53
Speaker
Oh, God, these the fucking creepiest little girls you've ever seen. It's just like every time they came on screen, like I just got chills. It was so so well done and just like so creepy. But also I've been reading and I think you'll especially appreciate
IDW TMNT Series Praise
00:09:08
Speaker
this. I've I'm getting into deep into the the IDW TMNT series.
00:09:17
Speaker
I'm pretty sure I've said this before Perry but like when I first discovered fan fiction I discovered Marvel 2000 and saw you right in Ninja Turtles. That was the first things I gravitated towards way back in the day. So that that series is incredible man I'm actually reading last Ronin right now. I think I'm two or three issues deep in that.
00:09:36
Speaker
And it's very it's very cool to kind of have Eastman and Laird back together on that. But they've done a lot of they finally legitimize the the Turtles comics because the first year there was Archie's and then not the same thing about the original Mirage run. But I mean, the Mirage run didn't really last as long as we think. And then they went to different creators and then it blew up. And so they only end up doing like what, 90 some issues of the first Mirage run.
00:10:01
Speaker
Maybe less, actually, I think. Yeah. And they try to do a couple of restarts here and there over over the 90s and an Archie series was something. And then the image got the rights for a time, too, if you were doing like continuation of it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember damaged comics. So I D.W. finally did it right. And and I love those books like that. That is the continuation of what I would like to see the turtles of be all this time. So yeah, they're definitely doing it right.
00:10:28
Speaker
Um, I had, I got off to a bit of a rocky start with me because it had kind of the same starting point as the, as the Michael Bay films with like April naming them as pets and everything like that. And, and the whole reincarnation aspect was a little bit weird to me. I'm just like, really? Do we need this? But it like, so I was skeptical of that stuff going into it, but I, it, it won me over really quickly. And I think I'm on, I'm like in the sixties is like right now in the book. That's what's up.
00:10:57
Speaker
Um, I, I miss, well, not even mistakenly. I read Scooby Doo Apocalypse somehow. I know it's not exactly related, but there's another cartoon series that got turned into this zombie apocalypse comic book. And the first graphic novel was enough to keep me hooked throughout the rest of the series. So, so I can understand not, not loving a concept at first and then just kind of be like, obviously you like it way more than me. With Scooby, I was like, I got to see how this ends at least.
00:11:25
Speaker
Well, I mean, it was the same thing with you invented superior Spider-Man before I had a similar thing with that. Right. Like really. And, you know, the been the the cane scarlet spider, too. I was really skeptical of that going into just, you know, I love Ben so much. And then with superior Spider-Man, just like all the.
00:11:42
Speaker
you know, all the stuff surrounding that. And then I read them like, damn, these are actually really fucking good. It is. It is heralded as slots, best stuff throughout like a whole run. Oh, yeah, definitely. I think I think so. Who knew that I would be a better Peter than Peter? It's crazy. It's still crazy. Hmm.
Fantastic Four Movie Introduction
00:12:02
Speaker
Okay, but today we are talking about, so we're doing another double feature like we usually do when you come on and you chose to do the Tim Story Fantastic Four movie. So this episode we'll be talking about 2005's Fantastic Four and then the next episode which we're recording back to back here but you guys will be hearing a week later.
00:12:24
Speaker
We're gonna be doing 2007's sequel Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer. So let's first start with some background. Okay. Are you a big FF guy in the comics to begin with?
00:12:39
Speaker
I am. I F.F. is probably my favorite team book ever, honestly, as much as I've enjoyed the X-Men over the years and Avengers and Justice League and even Teen Titans. And when it came to Tim Drake and stuff like that, I gravitated to the Fantastic Four. And when I was a kid, it was always like, oh, the human torch, he's a flying torch. It's so cool. But now, as of like in the last 10 years or so, I just love Ben Grimm. And I can relate to the struggle so much.
00:13:08
Speaker
And to be, it's a gift and a curse, because he's like the second most powerful superhero in the Marvel universe, for the most part, next to Hulk. I mean, nobody wants to mess with him. He exudes confidence and coolness. And at the same time, he's stuck in this rocky orange chai. Yeah.
00:13:31
Speaker
And he hates it. And he was just, he was just a dude from around the way on Yancy Street, man. And he just happened to be best friends with Rudy Richards. So I love that. Reed and Sue never, never was there for so much for their romance. I was like, yeah, Reed and Sue was together. Okay.
00:13:46
Speaker
Um, the more that, uh, I'm not even staying once Stan got away from her and stop letting her be read darling, I'm so helpless. And she got to actually do cool stuff like during John Burns run and stuff like that. And they really elevated her from being invisible girl to the invisible woman. I don't remember if I was during Stan's run or not, but I think it might've been Burns run, but I'm not 100% certain on that. Yeah. Cause she was an invisible girl forever.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah. Once she kind of started coming into her own and they really started opening up her powers and stuff instead of just being like, I turned invisible. I'm going to trip you because you can't see me. They found new ways to use her. And of course, with the introduction of Franklin and then and then her being a mom and and Valeria and stuff, it's like, oh, it's like now now the mommy jeans are kicking in. So you really don't want to have with Sue Storm. Sue Storm Richards.
00:14:35
Speaker
And then Johnny, man. Johnny's everything that any teenager wants to be, of course. Super cool, gets all the girls, can fly around the city. He's literally a human torch. He's a little bit of a hothead. He's best friends with my guy, Spider-Man. So what more could I ask for there? But then at the same time, in recent years, obviously, in the comic books, he died. He had to come back from that, which is crazy. Nobody thought that he ever would kill off human torch of all people.
00:15:03
Speaker
I'm not as up to date on the current run. And like last time, I really read F.F. was truly when Mark Mark Wade was writing the books. And now, OK, that was a year ago. Yeah, it was a while back. Yeah. So that was the last time I was really keeping up with them. I know that there's been some cool stuff with Jonathan Hickman and that he's done that I really want to catch up on, especially because of how impressed I was with Hickman on his X-Men run and stuff like that. So I do plan on catching up.
00:15:27
Speaker
But I just always loved the family dynamic and loved the Baxter building and reads read read and let's not leave read out read is like one of the biggest brains in Marvel Universe, but read is also one of the biggest a-holes in the Marvel Universe because he doesn't realize how he's clueless. He's so smart, but he has no like he's getting better obviously over the course of his 60 years. He's been around
00:15:52
Speaker
But, I mean, at first he was just so book smart. He was just, he had no street smarts at all. So he's like, Sue, why are you getting mad at me? Cause I spent four days in my lab. And she's like, bro, I'm over here, like, you know, laying across this couch, imposing provocatively. And you're over here playing with your isotopes. We're like, what's going on, Reed? But the, the family dynamic of it all, the way they bicker and fight, Johnny and Ben, which the movies did really well. They did really well. Yeah.
00:16:17
Speaker
Um, it just always worked for me. And they had the coolest villain. So cool that he's brought for every little thing in the Marvel comic books whenever they need, need a, we need somebody to do something. And he has his ultimate plan. Let's give Victor Von Doom. There's so many things that was done right with this series. And it's honestly just so timeless that that's why it's been so difficult to capture on film, I think. Yeah. So I love that.
00:16:44
Speaker
So this is news to me, because I've always associated you with Spider-Man, Tim Drake, like you mentioned, The Turtles. I never really knew you were such a big FF guy. They're probably my hidden property, so to speak, because my first comic books, I think, I remember, I don't remember what the issue was. Maybe it was in the 300s of FF.
00:17:05
Speaker
it was Diablo the master of alchemy and he had essentially he made the elementals I want to say don't quote me
Casting Choices and Impact
00:17:13
Speaker
but essentially he fought he had brought on these elementals who had powers the counteract all the FF and um um um shoot who was the other Miss Marvel what was her name oh uh share yeah Sharon something I can't remember her last
00:17:26
Speaker
Yeah, Sharon, when she was she thing, she was a part of the team at that time. And so he literally took apart the whole effort for this entire issue and they managed to figure it all out and beat them in the same issue. And I was like, well, my first issues, I was like, yo, this team is dope. Like I love your adventure.
00:17:42
Speaker
Thank you, Sharon Vincero, yes. One of the original Miss Marvels, I believe, right? Don't you like Miss Marvel before to Miss Marvel incarnation? No, no, I'm pretty sure Carol came first, and then Sharon came up after. Sharon came after. I'm pretty sure. I'm not 100%.
00:17:58
Speaker
When I started reading the books, I think it was around that time she might have been Ms. Marvel after she was she thing. So that makes sense. But that was one of my first books. And then I went to the yard sale like way back in 94. I still remember this. And I got this book that contained the first six issues of Fantastic Four. It's a little pocketbook. And it had all six issues. And I literally poured through that book. I read that book so much the cover fell off.
00:18:24
Speaker
It had an amazing, amazing Kirby cover where Thing was like breaking out of the machine and Doom's trying to shoot a thing and then the rest of the team are like getting together, getting ready to take on Doom. And I fell in love with those first six books and like a lot happens in those first six books too. So I don't get a chance to put it out there so much, but it just randomly struck me. I was like, I wonder if Perry's done Fantastic Four and here we are.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, but I was never a really big FF guy. I gravitated more towards the X-Men, towards the more weird characters. But there's been some stuff I've liked that I've read. You mentioned Mark Wagerun. I just reread that recently. That was great. Hickman stuff is really good too. In fact, if I think if you're going to rank Hickman's work on those three big Marvel properties, Avengers, X-Men, and FF,
00:19:15
Speaker
I'd say his FF work, I'd put that at the top of the list and then his X-Men work and then his his Avengers work. Yeah, I need to jump on there. I got that plug. So I start checking it out. I think the his big weakness for Avengers was like I felt like he had all these really big ideas, but it.
00:19:33
Speaker
it was at the expense of the characters. Like he had too many characters and they didn't really get enough attention. He kept bringing in all these new characters and then didn't spend enough time to really make me give a shit about them. Oh, it sounds like Vince McMahon. Okay. And then his X-Men stuff, it's got the big ideas thing. It's a little bit better on the characterization front, but it's still got, I think it's got too many characters and I think there's too many
00:19:59
Speaker
There's a lot of force. Yeah, there's a lot of force things in there. But the FF stuff, it's... And I think this is where he benefits just because it's such a smaller cast, so he has to focus more on the characters, so it works a lot better because of that.
00:20:12
Speaker
Absolutely, man. So yeah, these these hit home for me for some reason. Like I love Spider-Man obviously when it came out. Really enjoyed the first two X-Men movies. And then these were like the ones kind of in between because this is the first one was 2005. We didn't get Last Stand X-Men 3 until 2006, I believe. Spider-Man 3 wasn't until 2007.
00:20:37
Speaker
So this was like our major Marvel property holdover until we could get to the more X-Men and Spider-Man stuff. It was Fox. So I was really pumped about this. And and I was very happy with both movies.
00:20:53
Speaker
I'm not scared to say it, Perry. No, no, I mean, there's there's definitely good things about these movies. So let's first jump in with the first one and let's go ahead. This was a this was a weird time in superhero film history because this was, you know, we had X-Men, we had Spider-Man, we had Blade, and then we had this kind of weird period where we had a lot of superhero movies coming out, but none of them were really quite hitting the mark.
00:21:23
Speaker
Daredevil. Daredevil, I mean, the director's cut was good, but it still had issues with it, right? Like, and they weren't really taking off with the public in the way that, you know, when you look at, yeah, the way they do now.
Superhero Films in Early 2000s
00:21:37
Speaker
You didn't, you know, you didn't have a Batman Begins yet. You didn't have a Dark Knight. You didn't have an Iron Man or anything like that, so.
00:21:42
Speaker
Yeah. And so this was that weird period because I think in this time period, this was also a weird thing because this was a period when the superhero movies, a lot of them kind of were ashamed of being superhero movies.
00:21:56
Speaker
So it's like, you know, the X-Men, it's like, we're not superheroes. We're not running around in yellow spandex, right? And it's like this, you know, everyone's got to be in black leather or something like that. And so in that respect, Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four were really kind of outliers, because these were both movies where it's like, no, we're superhero movies and we're fine wearing that on our sleeve, right? There wasn't that kind of like angsty stuff. It was just like, you know,
00:22:23
Speaker
We were superheroes, we liked being superheroes. And I did like that the movies kept that tone with it. Yeah, I really enjoyed that too.
00:22:34
Speaker
So the reason the first film worked so well for me is I can't say his name. So I'm just calling my man Ian Grufford. Yeah. I always always want to say I own. I know me too. I know. I know. I always trip over when I read it. I'll just say Ian. So Ian really worked for me as Mr. Fantastic.
00:22:54
Speaker
Chris Evans as Human Torch. Shout out to Cap. He really worked for me as Human Torch. My brother-in-law still swears that he enjoyed him more as Human Torch than he did Cap, but he does not like the Cap movies no matter what I've tried. What is wrong with him? Cap's never been in his bag, and he really liked Johnny as Human Torch, or Chris Evans as Human Torch. So what can you do? I mean, if you really like seeing him in one way, and then all of a sudden he's Captain America, because that was everybody's problem at first. Everybody's like, he can't be Captain America. He was already Human Torch.
00:23:23
Speaker
Yeah. I was really skeptical. I've mentioned this before, but I was, I was skeptical when I'm like, really? You're going to get the human torch to play Captain America. I'm not sure if he's got that. And then he proved that he did have that much range and he could do it even better than I expected. More than one, more than one occasion he did. And then Michael Chiklis, shout out. Oh yeah.
00:23:43
Speaker
No better casting than him for the thing. He absolutely nailed it. Michael Chiklis, I don't know what you're doing nowadays, but these movies and your portrayal of the thing really shaped really and really nailed how much I loved. Love being grim and I love the thing because you got it 100% right.
00:24:04
Speaker
The weak link of all this is the hot, the hot girl in the movie, which really sucks for her because I love Jessica Alba. Yeah. And this just as a person because she does. She's like a head of the honest part of Honest Company and all kinds of cool stuff that she does nowadays. And I've liked some of her other films that she's done. I like Alias back in the day. You mean Dark Angel? Dark Angel. Thank you. I'm thinking about Jennifer Garner. I'm sorry for Jennifer Garner. I know you're from West Virginia. Don't come at me. I mean, if you want to, I'll apologize to your face. I have no problems doing that. OK, Jennifer Garner.
00:24:32
Speaker
So, Jessica Alba, though, man, they really tried to just have her be the hot girl and still be the Invisible Woman. And it didn't work because the first film, she wasn't even with Reed, obviously. She was with Doom and working for Doom. Now, they were, Doom and her were together, though, right? Yeah. That was one of the issues I had with it. Is it just...
00:24:56
Speaker
it paints Sue in a really bad light, this script. Like she, you know, she breaks up with Reed and then she starts dating Victor. And then after this, you know, this tragedy in space, and then she goes back with Reed and then she's very antagonistic towards Victor. And it's like, the script does not give us enough of reason to buy that. And she just comes off as very kind of bratty in the first movie. Yeah. And she was the one that's supposed to sell the tickets, obviously too.
00:25:23
Speaker
Well, to that point, like I was reading the trivia on IMDB and as soon as they cast her, like, you know, that scene when she when she's in her underwear, which they as soon as they cast her, they wrote that scene into the movie.
00:25:39
Speaker
Come on. Yeah. Come on, guys. Don't be like that. I mean, men are going to men. So what do you want to say? But but yeah, she was literally the star power of the film. No offense to Michael Chiklis, but he was he had the shield and he was more known for his TV work. Right. He was the one who was going to was going to get all the boys to come to the yard, essentially. Well, she was the FF.
00:26:04
Speaker
I think at this point, she was the only one that it had bit like, you know, some big movie roles to her name at that point, because, you know, the other two big names in this were Chiklis and McMahon, but they were both doing, you know, mostly it was critical acclaim from the stuff they were doing on FX, like Chiklis with the shield, McMahon on Nip Tuck. And Chris Evans, he had done some films, but he wasn't really a big name at this point. He was, you know, still kind of unknown at this point.
00:26:33
Speaker
Right, like I have watched not another teen movie several times before I saw these films and I still didn't click until I saw not another teen movie again. I was like, holy crap, human sorts is in this movie. Every time I, every time I see that movie, by the way, I had mentioned this before, but that is such an underrated movie. Oh, it's so funny. Me and my wife were watching it a few months ago and I was like, this still holds up. It does. It still holds up pretty nicely. 20 some odd years later. It was like the only one of those
00:27:01
Speaker
insert genre movies that was actually good. Yeah, it was because one, it was the first, but then they're like, we can franchise this. Yeah. And they literally not another superhero movie. No, I think Scary Movie was the first one. Well, yeah, I was talking about the Not Ain't Nothing. Oh, OK, OK. Scary Movie was absolutely 100 percent. It started really kicked the genre off. Yeah. But then they started doing those Not Another Spy movie and all those things that went straight to the DVD, the Walmart DVD.
00:27:31
Speaker
But yeah, she's just, she's the weak link in the family. And I don't blame Alba for it at all. Like, I think she does the best she can with what she's been given. What she's been given is dog shit. That was the problem. A big old pal. Big old pal of it.
00:27:46
Speaker
Um, so, so yeah, her, her reasonings don't make any sense. But the, the other problem is that they got to, they got their team together. They, they have their version of the cosmic rays. They get revealed to the public and all of that's going pretty well. You know, I'm like, okay, I'm buying into all this. Even, even with a Sue storm struggling along with her script. I mean, I'm still buying into it. Yeah.
00:28:10
Speaker
The problem is the the antagonist, obviously, which is Victor Von Doom and Julian McMahon. So I'm going to ask you a question, Perry, before we continue this. Did Nip Tuck seriously hurt Julian McMahon's career? Because I don't remember him ever being in a happy role after that show ever. Every time he showed up, something bad was going to happen.
00:28:32
Speaker
I haven't seen enough of his stuff. Like, I know he was in runaways, but I haven't seen enough of him and enough things to really kind of say one way or the other. But so I don't know. I'm not the way I'm not the guy to answer that question. I will do a Patreon only episode about Billy McVayner just to see where his career his career arc went to see if Niptuck kind of buried him as forever to be a villain.
00:28:54
Speaker
Yeah, but I will say I was excited about him being cast as Doom, because I was watching Nip Tuck at the time. I was really loving Nip Tuck. Yeah, everybody loved Nip Tuck. Yeah, it was huge back then. I don't know how well it holds up now, you know, what, 20 years later, but... Right. I'm sure there's a lot of problematic stuff in the sidelines that don't quite make sense, because it was like a modern day soap opera. Oh, it was so... Yeah, like as I... Imagine how goofy and corny it would be in 2022. Yeah.
00:29:22
Speaker
Um, but I do remember being really excited because I'm like, oh, well, you know, he's, he can do, he can do dark and all that kind of stuff pretty well. So I was really keen for him to play the part. Um, you know, I think though, I think he would have been much better as Namor.
00:29:37
Speaker
Ooh. Ooh. Yes. Yes. I could totally see that because then he can, because Namor, when he's first introduced him, Fantastic Four kids hadn't been seen since the invaders days in Marvel comics. So all of a sudden he was this homeless guy who Johnny shave with his finger because Johnny, Johnny, you literally set his finger on fire. It's like, you look like someone.
00:30:00
Speaker
Holy crap. You look like a guy from my comic book. Let me shake you with the flaming figure. Shout out to Stan and Jack for that one, man. And he's like, you're you're the Submariner. And all of a sudden he's like, I am the Submariner. I'm going to kill you all. And he takes off. I love those comic books.
00:30:15
Speaker
So he had an excellent casting for that because then he could have been the bad guy, but then he also could have kind of toed that line between I'm doing this for my kingdom. It's not just because I'm a bad guy and I'm motivated because you my my girlfriend went back to her ex-boyfriend and and I kind of got caught in a raise and and I am scarred and I'm my my skin is turning like my skin turning. Yeah, yeah.
00:30:39
Speaker
Like I'm, I'm cool with having doom involved in the origin. I'm fine with tying him into it. Um, even like him running a corporation, I mean, I prefer it if he's, you know, running a country, but you know, I can find whatever I can deal with it. Big Harry Osborn bops. Yeah. Yeah. From the first Spider-Man films. Yeah. Yo, totally. Like even down to like the board stealing the company, right? It's just like, it's straight up what happened to Norman Osborn in that movie. Yes. Yes. It really is, man.
00:31:07
Speaker
Um, and I mean, honestly, and this is the big problem with them with the first movie is that there's not really a good story, right? They focus so much on building up the family dynamics and which are really well done. Like the, even with the problems with Sue's character, when she's interacting with the rest of the team, mostly it works. Yeah. Mostly it works. Um,
00:31:32
Speaker
but then when we get to the actual story, that's when it starts to fall apart because we have this thing where all of them except for Johnny are upset about their condition and they're all angry that people are, and I think they overplayed that part too much, which again, I think is kind of a symptom of the early 2000 superhero movies where we have to hate the fact that we have superpowers. So I think that was very much just a trend at the time. But then when we get into Doom,
00:32:03
Speaker
You gotta help me out with this, Kel, because I've seen this movie over the years probably about like maybe five or six times. Okay, I probably doubled you, so yeah, that's good. And for the life of me, I still cannot tell you what Doom's ultimate goal is, what his plan is. Why is he doing all this?
00:32:22
Speaker
Okay, so I'm going to put on my wrestling hat here to make it make sense, okay? So Doom's goal, and it's not evident at all. So I agree with you. His goal is to one, prove that of course he still wants to show he's smarter than Reed because they get outed pretty quickly.
00:32:45
Speaker
And then they found out, oh, Reed is this. He's the one that went to space. And they obviously know he's a failed scientist and his experiments are working. But at the same time, he's losing his company and stuff. So he's out for revenge to read for scarring him, which is ultimately in the comics. A lot of their dynamic, even
Doctor Doom's Goals Debate
00:33:03
Speaker
though they used to be best friends, like his whole thing is like, oh, I'm scarred and I blame Reed Richards and blah, blah, blah, you know.
00:33:10
Speaker
So there's that motivation that he wants to get read back because he got scarred and he's turning metal and he has electricity powers like a lecture all of a sudden. And he wanted to show that he could cure thing, which he did, which he did cure thing. But then Ben was like, oh crap. Well, now I can't fight. Let me go turn this machine right back on without Victor being around and turn right back into the thing that you needed Victor to run the machine the first time. But I digress. I digress.
00:33:36
Speaker
And then he ultimately wanted to win the girl back. So I'll kill Reed, show the world how smart I am, cure Ben, and he'll be dead. And then she'll be like, oh, well, he's dead now. I know I'm going to go be with Victor. So so that was his plan, even though at no point did he actually state those facts because he didn't say that much when he got in. He was all put it up. Yeah. And so there was all, you know,
00:34:04
Speaker
There wasn't much to it. No, no. I can't explain it. I can make it up. I mean, if, you know, if I was grading this as a teacher, I probably would have given that explanation a B because I know it's a lot of bullshit, but it's convincing bullshit. Nice. And that's how I graduated high school, ladies and gentlemen.
00:34:28
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, and just like that, it's so much feels like he's the villain here just because the movie needs a villain. Just because, that's it. And it also feels a lot like when we were kids and we had our little action figures and then we had our bad guy and it's like, okay, we're going to have these people fight. We didn't have to have any kind of plot lines. Of course, we're children. They were going, we're going to fight. Shredder and the turtles are going to fight. The fans asked for them, doom's going to fight.
00:34:55
Speaker
And, you know, we would be fighting and then we put our toys down and walk away and they lay there for X amount of time. And next time pick up, they're going to fight again. So it felt very much like this. Like we got our pieces. We showed how they turn into the FF. We showed how Johnny was going, kind of made himself famous and he won the ski. What was it? The ski competition? What was it again?
00:35:20
Speaker
Are you talking about the, when he was at the, the, the, when he was riding the motorcycle thing? Yeah, the motorcycle thing. I'm sorry. Yes. Um, yeah, when, when that happened and then everybody, he's using his powers to get popularity and Sue's like, you can't do that. Also, again, with the family dynamic, Sue and Johnny worked really well. As far as brother, sister, you really felt like they were brother and sister. And then Ben and Johnny felt like they were, they,
00:35:46
Speaker
best of best of front of me. So essentially, which is what they are in a comic book. So that worked really well. And it was just like, all right, we got all these other pieces. We have Victor over here. What can we do with Victor? Let's take away his money. OK, and have him get scarred. And when he has no powers and he really hasn't displayed that he's super duper smart or only reads level. So let's let's give him lightning powers and make him look really cool. And oh, and credits.
00:36:15
Speaker
I will say that because this movie came out at the same time that it was in production at the same time that Bendis and Miller were doing Ultimate Fantastic Four.
00:36:31
Speaker
part of the idea behind the ultimate books was to kind of give, make it, you know, make it easier for Hollywood to come in and adapt these things into movies. So, so they had done, they had some made some questionable choices with the, with the comic and like they had, they didn't go to space anymore. Now they were going to the negative zone or the end zone, as they called it.
00:36:52
Speaker
The end zone. Yeah. And they weren't adults, right? They were all teenagers. They're all part of like this gifted school. All super young. Yeah, all super young. All like geniuses were part of the school. And
00:37:07
Speaker
And Victor was bizarrely, because they thought Victor Von Doom sounded too ridiculous. So he was Victor Van Dam now. Yes, he was. Yes, he was. And there was a lot of concern among the fans at the time. Like, are they just going to adapt the Ultimate Fantastic Four? And Tim Story came out and he said, no, no, no. His name is Victor Von Doom in this. They're going to be going to space. They're going to be getting their part. So I'm glad they resisted that urge to go with what the comics were clearly trying to push them towards the time.
00:37:36
Speaker
I thought that was a really smart choice and you can tell like as as many flaws this movie does have you can see that overall Tim Story is definitely a fan of these comics like I can yeah there's a definite love of the source material I was gonna say he directed it with love absolutely yeah now whether his script was the best I mean we can say you're gonna make that all day
00:37:58
Speaker
Well, I mean, you mentioned I think Daredevil is a good comparison, right? Because Daredevil, too, you can tell that the guy loved the comic books. Maybe he loved them a little bit too much because he throws a little bit too many references. But every idea he can get. Yeah. But everything he put in every single every single chance he has to have to throw in a character, a creator's name, he takes it or put Frank Miller in a movie or Kevin. Yeah. Yeah. Or he decided to move. But it's
00:38:27
Speaker
but you can tell there's a love there. Even with the script problems, there's still that love of the source material. And I get the same feeling with Tim's story. You don't get, which is a weird, because you had the opposite thing with the X-Men where the script is really solid. It's a really good movie, but you can tell that the director is not a fan of the comics going in.
00:38:47
Speaker
Right. And it wasn't as apparent to me when I was younger, but none of watched X-Men ad nauseam. Singer didn't give three shits about the X-Men like that. And as much as people were like, oh, Ratner hurt the third movie when it came in because Singer went to do Superman Returns. Yeah, maybe.
00:39:09
Speaker
And Ratner also didn't seem to love the characters either. But of course, once we got in the first class and then more of the other movies, like not the last two X-Men movies, but like Days of Future's past and stuff, you could definitely tell the shift, especially because the MCU was a thing by then.
00:39:26
Speaker
where more more of the creators behind the film actually loved the property as much as um as they did the fact they were going to make the movie right earlier on with a lot of these movies like you said especially these you you did the x-men movies you didn't get to see that and even with ramey like i don't know how much of a spiderman fan ramey was obviously he did an amazing job with the first
00:39:49
Speaker
Two movies. And then he had studio issues in the third one. And it is what it is. Yeah. But he's still he was still a good enough director in order to make it work. And then same thing with you need to say multiverse where it was the same thing. I don't know how much Dr. Strange, Amy was into. But of course, horror is more of his jam anyway. So a lot of that work. And some of it was downright goofy. You know, do anybody. But
00:40:12
Speaker
I think in this Ramey's case is he was I know he's definitely a fan. Like he has said that his two favorite Marvel characters were Spider-Man and Doctor Strange growing up. OK, well, there we go. So I'm off base. But no, it is a it's it's it's a good point to make. And I think Singer is probably the best example of that because he's someone who was able to make
00:40:32
Speaker
three really good movies, right? X-Men, X2, and Days of Future Past, even though he didn't really give a shit about the source material. Whereas then you got guys like, you know, Marc Stephen Johnson with Daredevil, Tim Story with the Fantastic Four, where they're real big fans of the source material, but they're just not able to get it together enough to make a good movie.
00:40:53
Speaker
They were like 10 years too early, essentially. That was part of it too. Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm sure there's probably some studio interference as well because they didn't really know what the hell this superhero boom was going to mean. So I think that was probably part of it as well. Like there was a definite
00:41:10
Speaker
belief among the studio heads the time that superheroes are still like the Adam West stuff. Yeah, it's still like this kiddie stuff. So we can't if we want to make it if we want to want adults to like this stuff, we have to take some of the ridiculous stuff out of it. There was a lot of that going on at the time.
00:41:29
Speaker
But even with all that, like, you know, it's funny because I was reading some of the background. We could have gotten a really interesting Fantastic Four movie because one of the directors who had approached, who was actually brought in was Peyton Reed, who ended up directing the Ant-Man movies.
00:41:48
Speaker
Yes. And yeah, oh, yeah, they're great. And he he had worked on it for about a year and he had gone on with like three different sets of writers. And he said it became clear after a while that Fox had a very different movie in mind and that they were chasing a release date. So we parted company. But his idea was he wanted it to be influenced by A Hard Day's Night, The Beatles movie.
00:42:10
Speaker
And his ideal cast was he wanted Alexis Denizoff as Reed, Charlize Theron as Sue, Paul Walker as Johnny, and John C. Riley as Ben, and Jude Law as Doom. Holy crap. I know. No way. I want to go back in time and I want that movie to be made. Like somewhere in the multiverse, there's a parallel earth where that movie was made. And like the Fantastic Four is now as big as The Avengers.
00:42:36
Speaker
I can't lie when you said Charlize is a Sue Storm. My hair, so my arm may have stood up a little bit. And I mean, yeah, hubba hubba, so to speak. I mean, if you're going to cast a bombshell to be Sue Storm, no offense.
00:42:54
Speaker
Yeah, that wouldn't be bad at all. And the rest of that cast, John C. Raleigh has been. Yeah. Especially because we know John C. Raleigh can act as asshole for real now, because we only knew him from like, well, I only knew him from his comedy stuff. I know he always had serious material like before, like he kind of blew up with Will Ferrell and things like that in the holiday nights. But he can really act. So him being in that role and and of course, he could have shaved down his head or something. And you've been younger and and who was going to be Johnny again? Paul Walker.
00:43:24
Speaker
Paul Walker, obviously, we saw what he was able to do with the Fast and Furious franchise and be this magnetic tentpole for the theme of family throughout nine films now. I mean, obviously, I think it's 10 films. I think they're up to 10 and he wasn't in like the last three, obviously. And then Jude Law is due.
00:43:47
Speaker
Jude Law's Doom and Alexis Denizoff as Reed, which is, you know, like me being like a huge Angel fan, like Alexis Denizoff, he ended up being one of my favorite characters on that show because he was just, and he's one of those guys who, you know, if you've only known him from like Buffy, you probably wouldn't realize, but he is one of the, he is so freaking versatile. Like you've seen him, like you saw him as Wesley go through this massive character transformation where he's, you know,
00:44:13
Speaker
this foppish, you know, teacher's pet basically at the beginning to then turning into this, you know, relentless hard-ass and then, you know, becoming like this weird mix of the two by the end. But then you watch him in something like How I Met Your Mother, where he's just, you know, playing this total spoof of a character and he's brilliant in all of it. Yeah, he was really great on How I Met Your Mother. So,
00:44:39
Speaker
That kind of sucks. Yeah, I know that. And also influenced by a hard day's night, like, because that was like, you know, all about the Beatles dealing with their fame and all that. That would have been a really interesting, fantastic format because you could have opened it up in media res with them already being the fantastic four. You could have had flashbacks to the space flight and everything. And that would have been a really interesting thing because one of the things I could have said at the Beatles music at the beginning when they got a raise.
00:45:05
Speaker
Shoo, shoo, yeah. Yeah, and Peyton Reed has proven with the Ant-Man movies that he can really balance that humor with that heart and that action too.
00:45:15
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And being true to the comic book characters at the same time. Yeah. Oh, man. Oh, I had never like I had never heard about this as a possibility until I just read this and it just like, oh, God, that would have been so amazing. That that would be a good good comic book right now if somebody was willing to take on that that Hard Day's Night concept. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And apply it for
00:45:38
Speaker
I don't want to do it in the middle of a real FF run, but I mean, hell, just throw a fantastic. Do like limited series or something. Yeah, it would be great. Drop 16, 12 issues, whatever you can run through it. Yeah, that sounds that sounds great. People snatch up those five dollar books. So but going back, another thing I thought that they did really well is they they modernize the reasons all the characters have for the space flight, because when you go back and you read those early FF issues,
Modern Storytelling in Film
00:46:06
Speaker
They're rough. Let's be honest. Let's be real. I mean, they were they were hugely groundbreaking. They were incredibly influential. They changed the entire comics medium. They're still rough. Yeah, because it's like Reed wanted to go to space because he wanted to he wanted to prove his spaceship could handle the cosmic rays, I believe. Ben went because he was his best friend. Sue went because she couldn't do anything without Reed. So she went and then she wanted to bring her kid brother Johnny along.
00:46:33
Speaker
and one of the one of the stated things I remember in the first issues like we have to get to space before the commies do yes yeah and they wanted to beat the commies absolutely always got to beat the commies that's important and and just like yeah and you think about sue and those original like people talk complain about jessica alba on this like go and read those some of those early issues and that like sue was just like
00:46:57
Speaker
I mean, I feel like she needed like, um, she needed to be monitored like at all time. I feel like she had some sort of mental illness or something. I was going to say he did a terrible, I mean, they, cause I know that, uh, Jack did a lot of the plotting too, but, but there, there was just so many times. Cause again, I've read those first six issues a lot. And it's like, she's like, Oh, I'm out shopping, dah, dah, dah, dah. I wonder what Reed's doing.
00:47:19
Speaker
Like, oh, I'm going to, I bumped into somebody. I turned invisible. Whoopsie. This is so weird. It's like, it's easy to go through a crowd when you're invisible. Like, okay, Sue. And people are like, oh, there's floating bags. And she's like, she, she stops into a restaurant for like a soda. She's like, this is hard work. And she's invisible the whole time. And yet, so I'm like, how did she get the soda?
00:48:07
Speaker
I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh, I'm like, Oh,
00:48:10
Speaker
Like these dogs would totally know I'm over here. Like, yeah, she was like borderline brain damage. Those issues. Oh, yeah. And and Reed, you know, you got it. It makes Reed look even worse because, you know, we talked about Reed being an asshole like Jesus Christ, like now he's taking advantage of this poor woman. Oh, of course. He's like, I'm so smart that I just need the dumbest woman I remember. I remember one time he was like, hush, you know, wives should be seen and not heard or something like that.
00:48:37
Speaker
He did say something crazy like that. And it was fine back then, obviously. Yeah. I'm trying. I'm trying to pull up this cover of the first comic book, because even the cover, the first comic. OK, she she's in the hands of the mole man. So she's like turning half invisible. And her caption doesn't even make any damn sense.
00:48:56
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it's like she's wrapped. She's tied up in ropes. And she's like, these ropes are no problem for the invisible girl. I'm like, how does that even track? No, she said, I can't turn invisible fast enough. How can we stop this creature torch? So she's like, just wait and see, sister, the fantastic perfectly began to fight. And then Ben's like, the three of you can't do it alone. It's time for the thing to take a hand. And then freaking reads over here ropes.
00:49:20
Speaker
Oh, that's right. Read the ropes on them. I'll take more more than ropes to keep Mr. Fantastic out of the action. And that's an iconic cover book, comic book cover, ladies. Yeah. And that's yeah, like those are I've been every now and then they got a sale in comicsology. And at some point I'm going to they've got all the the Santa Jack stuff in the epic elections. At some point, I am going to get them all and I'm going to sit down and read them. But it's I am putting it off at the same time.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah. I never, I never picked up the fantastic four essentials when they did them. And I know that the collection is like the updated color version and stuff like that, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to track, track those books down too. Cause I used to love the centrals. Like I have a whole bunch of the Daredevil essentials, inspire me on essentials, X-Men essentials. So any time you can go back and kind of look at that history, especially when you don't have to look out on the phone, it's, it's quite a treat. So I suggest that for anybody who's able to go back and find those old books for a good price.
00:50:18
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, one of the things but so what I was saying is kind of got sidetracked there. But the point I was trying to make is that this movie actually gives each character a reason for being on that spaceship.
00:50:32
Speaker
Yes, which made a made a lot of sense. Like Sue is a scientist as well in this. So makes sense. And she's working. And yeah, Doom footed the he put in the bill for the project. So it made sense to write. So it made sense for them to both be there. Ben is a pilot. Obviously, that made sense. And Johnny is also a pilot. Right. He used to and he was and Ben was his CEO at NASA. And he got he got I love that he got washed out of NASA because he tried to sneak some Victoria's Secret models into the simulator and then he crashed the flight simulator.
00:51:06
Speaker
He must have been very distracted. Yeah. Each character has a reason for being on that space station. And I like that. That made sense for all of them to be there together. Because remember, like, even when we had, um,
00:51:20
Speaker
in the reboot movie that Josh Trank did a few years back when they went with the Ultimate Style 1, where Ben has no fucking reason to be there at all. It's just like, like, hey, we're gonna go into the end zone. I'm gonna call up my childhood buddy and see if he wants to come join us. Right, right, yeah, come hang out with me, why? Yeah. Because, because for plot reasons, oh, okay, I'll be right there. Yeah.
00:51:42
Speaker
I love the way I get invited for plot reasons. So yeah, they all have a good reason to be there. And I like that both Johnny and Sue actually have contributions to make. Making Sue a scientist was a really good choice. Making Johnny a pilot, really good choice. And having this existing relationship with Ben also made sense. Because before that, you're kind of wondering in the comics, like why the hell did him and Ben have a relationship to begin with? Because it seems like they shouldn't, why is Ben hanging around with a teenager?
00:52:12
Speaker
Right. Right. Because there's definitely a gap. Yeah. Obviously, it's been made up over the years as as the comics have aged and they've aged slightly. But in the beginning, Johnny was was just as young as Spider-Man. Right. He was like 16, 17. And he's just he's his world famous playboy who can light himself on fire. So I got to say, though, I got to say, I really hate the ending of essentially putting doom in carbonite. Yeah.
00:52:40
Speaker
I mean, I'm just gonna say, I hate everything about Doom in this movie with the exception of his appearance. Like the costume looks pretty decent. I mean, I got some quibbles with it, but for the most part, I like it. I thought the mask works really well. The hood looks really well. I mean, I think when they got some of the details in the comic, the rest of the costume, it gets kind of bland, but you got the cloak with the big hood and you've got the mask and those are like the,
00:53:09
Speaker
The two big things, I think you got to nail with doom and they got both of those things down. So those I was happy with. But everything else with doom, I just fucking despised. Yeah, other than his reason to be on the ship. Yeah, that was the only thing. And and it sucks because, I mean, I know the FF have a vast rogues gallery, but you can't exactly start out with impossible man or anything like that. But when you're jumping into launching a fantastic four, you're going to bring doom in.
00:53:38
Speaker
I was going to say Perry, they didn't bring the doom. No, they didn't. Not at all. They did not bring the doom and they had they had them there, but they just didn't didn't finish the job, essentially. I think if you're going to if you're going to do a fantastic for it, I think you should have like you can have doom in the first one, but I don't think you should be the villain of the first one.
00:53:58
Speaker
I think you got to save. If you're going to be doing the origin story, then I think you should save Doom for the sequel, especially if he's going to be involved in the beginning. I agree. Yeah. Well, I mean, also, when you think about it, too, like even in the original comics, Doom didn't come in until what? Like issue four, issue five, issue four. I think it's issue number five is for no four. Wait, no, no, four. I want to say four. And then him and some mariner teamed up in issue six. OK, so so he was in the comic at least two times before we actually
00:54:24
Speaker
in those first six issues, but they again, they didn't jump right to do right. They start off with the moment and even could they have made the moment work in 2005? Probably not. But, you know, there's different options. They weren't going to do scrolls. Obviously, their scrolls are way different than MCU scrolls are today, but they couldn't do there. They can't do a nihilist. How do you explain the negative zone? Like that's that's a whole can of worms in itself. That's a whole other movie. You know, right. So.
00:54:52
Speaker
Well, I think one of the big issues is that there's it's hard to because the Fantastic Four don't really have a villain that directly ties into their origin. No, not at all. And when you like, you can kind of work Doom in, but it doesn't really work. It's not in the same way with like, you know, Spider-Man, you can easily tie in Norman Osborn to that origin. It works. Absolutely. Very seamless. But it's it's a lot harder to do that with Doom and the FF.
00:55:18
Speaker
And I think that's kind of why you would have to start off the movie, I think in media res with the team already formed, already having their powers and then show like in flashbacks, like an opening credit sequence or something, how they got their powers.
00:55:32
Speaker
It would have saved so much time because I feel like they do spend so much world building on this movie. And all of a sudden it's like time to fight the bad guy. And then that's like 20 minutes and then it's credits. Like I said, I mean, I think the Incredible Hulk still, I think, did the is like probably my favorite version of the way they handled an origin story.
00:55:54
Speaker
because it's just like this five-minute credit sequence with like these different scenes. You get everything you need to know, and it's all played over music, and it's the opening credits, and then it's it. We're into a whole different story then. And it keeps your attention a whole time, and you can follow along, and then, like you said, it launches into the movie. Yeah. So, and of course, comic book fans have been fighting for years about watching the origin story again, and like even with Robert Pattinson Batman happening, everybody's like,
00:56:22
Speaker
Oh, they're going to tell the origin story again. And no, they didn't quite tell the origin, but a lot of it was still tied to his origin again with dealing with the fallout from his parents and everything like that. So at least we didn't see the Waynes getting murdered again. So that's true. And we didn't have to see Megan or Maggie get murdered again like we did in. Yeah. So we didn't have to see any we didn't have to see any pearls falling in slow motion again. So that was.
00:56:48
Speaker
No, we just got a lot of Nirvana and I was here. I was here for it. I can't lie. Four times in the theater. And I don't I don't regret anything. Oh, I really like that movie, Perry. I can't lie. It's good. I feel like it's I feel like the third act is a little bit unnecessary. But overall, I really liked it, too.
00:57:05
Speaker
Yeah, it starts to drag after your second viewing, but I really enjoy a lot of the beats in it, so they did that really well. But again, there I am sidetracking the whole conversation again. That's what I do. But you know what? I want to talk about Johnny and Ben, because specifically, I just want to focus on Ben first, because one of the weird things this movie does, and I think it's just a waste of time, is the whole thing with his wife at the beginning.
00:57:33
Speaker
That's that. That's just that's like, all right, we're going to turn you into a monster and then we're going to find a way to even twist a knife deeper to make people really feel bad for you. None of that was necessary. It's completely unnecessary. And I'm like, you can you can correct me if I'm wrong, because you know, we're going to say the same thing. I'm pretty sure that this character did not exist. Like I know, like he had no sort of pass. OK, so yeah, that's what I thought.
00:57:59
Speaker
No, he had like, if I recall, like, I mean, he was the guy from around the way, like he was the muscle down the block, you know. So so he I'm sure he had his fair share of dames that he would like to hook up with every now and then back in the day. But he never was married or anything like that.
00:58:18
Speaker
And it made his wife look horrible. I know. Like, for no reason. This movie does no favors to any of the female characters, with the exception of Alicia, who has such a small role, and that's the only reason why she gets out unscathed. Yeah, because she's only there for, like, what, the last five minutes or so? Basically, yeah. She beats Ben in the bar, and then later she pops up at the party at the end, and that's it.
00:58:40
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she's helping me cope with who I am. She's like, hi. I'm like, hi. You're black, Alicia Masters. That's what's up. You know, and I'm sure fanboys are like, Alicia Masters, is it black? Who cares, bro?
00:58:57
Speaker
Um, but they scandal Kerry Washington to pre scandal Kerry, Washington. Absolutely. I don't know why we needed that. And then then then the gesture of after they go public and they save, uh, save everybody on the bridge. Everybody's like, you guys are heroes. And then it's like reads, like,
00:59:15
Speaker
Here's the ring. She takes off the ring and just leaves it in the middle of the street. I'm just like, what the fuck is this? It's so bad. But like, even before that, when she called, when he calls her from the payphone and she comes out to the street in her fucking lingerie, I'm like, put on a robe, lady, at least. Right. Right. Like, what did you think was going to happen here? You know, because it's like, I'm pretty sure they're still living on Yancey Street. So it's like, it's not the safest neighborhood. What are you doing? Walk around and run around in your own dimensionals like that, man. Come on, come on.
00:59:45
Speaker
Uh, yeah, like, so, so I didn't like any of that.
Portrayals of The Thing and Human Torch
00:59:49
Speaker
Chick listed an awesome job aside from dealing with that stupid plot point of displaying how much he hated being a thing. And it was constantly like, he's like, I don't like being like this. He didn't, he didn't let up off Rita one second. He's like, you said you'd cure me. And Reed's like, Ben, I'm trying.
01:00:06
Speaker
He's like, well, and he he he really brought the thing to life from the comic book page. I can't say that enough, because this is truly his film and Johnny's film, the shot, because they're the characters that that are best well served by this entire movie. Yeah. Which is probably intentional for me, selling toys, point of view, maybe. Let's put that out there. Well, I mean, I think it's also just because when you think about it, they really are the most interesting characters, like just on paper. They are the most interesting characters of the team.
01:00:35
Speaker
I don't ever see a kid run around saying, I'm Mr. Fantastic. Like, nah, that ain't happening. Or a girl saying I'm the visible woman. Because again, as cool as her powers have developed to be at the end of the day to a child, all Sue Storm does is change the visible. Right. And especially at this time, especially, because they're more concerned about how are we going to market this to boys and young men. So they're more concerned about Jessica Alba as eye candy and less concerned with her as like a headlining superhero.
01:01:05
Speaker
Absolutely. Or as a person. Or as a person, yeah. So yeah, I absolutely loved Chiklis' portrayal of the thing. And Evans is Johnny, man.
01:01:18
Speaker
He did a lot of acting in this movie for, I feel like he went from the, this is super cool, I'm the human torch to, hey, this is super cool, but I got responsibilities too, you know? Where it's like, you didn't lose any of that Johnny Storm character, but he grew up enough to realize there's more to this than just light myself on fire and all the girls and then worldwide acclaim and stuff like that.
01:01:44
Speaker
So so his his arc was also very nice. And then him and him and Ben were like at the forefront of the fight, obviously, with Doom at the end there. I mean, there were ones who helped put him away. So I also really enjoyed their contributions together. Their banter was perfect, like from the very start, when they all got into the back of the building, they are cutting on each other. And obviously the pranks continue into the next film, which we'll talk about.
01:02:10
Speaker
But the fact that the reason this movie worked so well for me is the fact that they got them so right. Yeah, exactly. If they didn't get them right and then the rest of the movie was the way it was, I wouldn't love this movie as much as I did.
01:02:25
Speaker
One thing too, and I know a lot of people at the time, I'm not sure how people respond to it now, but I remember at the time a lot of people were very critical of the things makeup, which I actually like it. I think it works really well. It's not 100% like how he's come to evolve over the comics, but if you go back and you look at that original Kirby artwork, it's pretty, it's very close to the original Kirby designs.
01:02:47
Speaker
even with the coloring and everything, it's very dark. It's not super bright orange. Like, well, sometimes in the sun, you'll get, you'll get that really bright orange, but he's very rocky. He's very muddy. And it looks essentially like Kirby Jerome for the first X amount of issues before he started really putting in eyebrows and giving him that classic thing look that we all know and love. So I also appreciated it. I, but again, my love was born from those original six comics.
01:03:17
Speaker
So I knew that look. And I know people were like, again, those fanboys like, that's not what the thing looks like. This is bullshit. Like, who cares? You know what? You know what? Also, you know what? Also, the things design reminded me of is you ever read Grant Morrison's Fantastic Four miniseries? One, two, three, four.
01:03:39
Speaker
No, I actually did not. I've heard of it, but I've never read it. Okay. So it's pretty good. And, um, Jay Lee did the artwork and his take on the thing looks very much like this. Like it seems like they were definitely influenced by this. Okay. Very, I've always, um, I meant to check that out. Like years ago, when it first came out, I was like, Oh, get red mirrors and wrote one FF. I need to check that out. And then it just slipped my mind. So this is very moment again. So I do want to go back and reread that.
01:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna quickly show you the image here so you can see. Let me see it. So I'm showing him a image here now. And you can see it's very much like, it's got like, there's not a really big brow. He's very much influenced by the Kirby design and it works really well. Like, so I, and I remember defending this makeup back at the time because I thought it was not the best, but I thought it still was a pretty good look for him.
01:04:37
Speaker
And I will give, and also- Translated his screen really well. Yeah. And Chiklis was the only one of the cast who was a huge fan of the comics. Like he read the Fantastic Four growing up and like the thing was like, he loved the FF, he loved the thing. So, and he, more than anyone else, he pushed really hard for prosthetic makeup. He did not want it to be, cause they'd wanted to do a CGI thing and Chiklis pushed back against that. I remember that now.
01:05:06
Speaker
And I think, and that was such a right decision because I think now when you look back at CGI in the early 2000s, it would not have held up. It would look really rough now.
01:05:18
Speaker
they would not have been able to pull off the same effect that they had by actually doing the makeup. Because again, the thing is right there on our TV screens, people are like, that's the thing. I don't care about his eyebrows or anything like that. He's got the voice, he's got the look, he's got the aggravation. Oh my God, his voice is perfect. I don't know if they had did any sort of post-production work or anything on it, but whatever they did, it was perfect.
01:05:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's how I always thought the thing would speak. It reminded me even of some of the Fantastic Four cartoons I used to watch, like Marvel Action Hour, where they would have that real gravelly voice, everything like that. And Chiklis really brought everything he had to that role. So I honestly couldn't can't think of enough for his portrayal of the thing, because I really loved him in both of these movies. Yeah. And I also like that they they brought in that stuff from
01:06:13
Speaker
The comics like the whole the whole neighborhood guy from the neighborhood thing like when he goes into the bar Yeah, and and the bartenders, you know standing up from is like hey This is Ben Grimm from yet the first MOOC from Yancy Street to go into space Right and there's this there's this neighborhood respect that they have from I love that they they brought that in
01:06:31
Speaker
Yeah. And that's that's such a good piece of the comic book to bring in, like you said, because again, spider go away. I'm sorry. Like that, that's who Ben is. Ben is always talking about Yancy Street. He's always talking about where he's from and being the ever loving blue eyed thing from Yancy Street. And so for him to still be that even as a monster in that moment,
01:06:57
Speaker
That that was the perfect touch and and that's one of the points that the movie got right and another win for me. Another reason why I love this movie. Yeah. And then in Johnny, I think we kind of touched around a lot, but I thought they did a really good job of
01:07:15
Speaker
Because I think with Johnny, there's the possibility that you can make him too arrogant, too much of an asshole, and then the audience will turn off. And Chris Evans manages to just skirt that line.
01:07:27
Speaker
He does. He does. And again, this is a precursor to what he was able to do as Cap. But hey, guys, Chris Evans can act in case y'all weren't aware. Yeah. And he even acted in both of these films with as little as he was given to do in both of these movies. I just mean with the script and everything like that, because he really was was able to be the best of both worlds, not to quote Hannah Montana.
01:07:54
Speaker
where he was also, he was that arrogant kid who wanted to be that hotshot and get all the notoriety. But at the same time, when shit really went down, he was able to be there for his new family, for his sister, and then obviously for his new friend, or thing, who he had begrudgingly had a newfound respect for. And then he didn't really fuck with Reed a lot of the movie either. And also that was cool too, to see him like, you know what Reed,
01:08:22
Speaker
You're not really as smart and the kind of have so I go back and read because Ben was always like are you got fixed me, but nobody was really trying to go at read like that which is kind of what doom should have been doing, but I know that's, I mean that's really what it should be it should be about the fact
01:08:38
Speaker
And I think one of the bad things when you tie doom into it is that, cause it's dooms miscalculations that cause it.
Reed's Guilt and Responsibility
01:08:45
Speaker
And I think one of the, one of the things about the, one of the keys about the FF is the guilt read feels over that. I think that guilt is diluted when you have doom involved in the origin, it's dooms miscalculation that that's responsible for it. When it's all read behind it, then he has a much stronger feeling of guilt.
01:09:05
Speaker
He definitely does because there's a whole comic books that have been spent over the years that just read morning. The fact that he's done this to his wife and his and her brother and his best friend and he can't hear him. And then, you know, then it's like, hey, read Daddy, let's go outside and do this. And he's like, OK, I swear there's multiple comics with the same story where he's just he's just mulling to himself how awful of a person he is.
01:09:29
Speaker
Yeah. And that's one of the reasons that Reed works in the comic books as well. Because, yeah, Reed is ultimately that smart guy asshole. But at the same time, he does feel emotion. And he's never been someone to, as he evolved from the 60s, never been someone to hide his emotions at all and kind of puts them out there with how he's feeling and stuff. Even if it's in those contemplative moments or when he's sitting with Ben and they're just kind of talking back and forth.
01:09:56
Speaker
He's always kind of worn his heart on his sleeve, especially when it comes to what he was responsible for. Absolutely, yeah.
01:10:06
Speaker
And I also like that Johnny is the one who names them, who gives them all the names because- We're the Fantastic Four. I think one of the things I always had an issue with in the comics is how Reed names himself, right? And it's like, everyone's like, Ben's like, I'll be the thing. And Reed's like, and I'll call myself Mr. Fantastic. It's like, okay, asshole.
01:10:28
Speaker
See, he didn't know how to talk to people back then. He's probably stuck with it. I hate my name, but I can't change my name now. I can't just be Reed Richards. I gotta be Mr. Fantastic.
01:10:40
Speaker
Um, but I, I also like that. Um, one of the things that's weird though is how right from the start, the media assumes they're going to be their superheroes. That was also a little bit that, that comes off as a little bit pretentious. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Oh, they have superpowers. They're here to protect us. Like maybe not. Yeah.
01:10:59
Speaker
Maybe they're not all on the up and up. I mean, authority was around back then, but there's no way that authority was even in anybody's minds back then. No, no. Not outside of the comics. Yeah. So maybe they're not always here for good, but you got to give them the benefit of doubt. I mean, you don't want to piss them off because they're like, oh, you guys are strange. And then all of a sudden things like knocking people's heads off and stuff. A whole different movie.
01:11:22
Speaker
whole different movie. I will say too, the effects on this, because again, you know, early 2000 CGI doesn't always hold up the best. Right. This actually holds up pretty well. Like the CGI on Johnny is probably the biggest example of it. And that holds up really well. Read stretching effects also work pretty well now.
01:11:41
Speaker
Very cool. Very cool. I always I did appreciate the fire effects on Johnny because again, they they they couldn't really show the whole costume thing. I mean, I know they kind of went for it with the four later on where you could see the four on his chest at certain times, but you really couldn't truly show the trunks and the pants and the boots and everything. And they they went for that classic look of when he first debuted in Fantastic Four, even back in Vader's where he literally was like they were like a whole lighter.
01:12:10
Speaker
Nothing but flame, you know. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Literally a human torch. Yeah. They went with that and they really leaned into it, but they still were able to clearly define that there's an actual human being underneath the fire. I think that was the right choice for this movie because and then we'll talk about the next movie, because I think by the next movie, the technology had evolved enough to the point where they could make it look realistic with some definition. Yeah. But in this first movie, I think maybe the technology wasn't quite there yet. So I think it was a good choice to just
01:12:40
Speaker
to play it safe and just have him, you know, look much more like you said, look much less detail on him.
01:12:46
Speaker
Yeah, that that was definitely. And plus, you could even say he's he hasn't learned to fully control his flame like that. So maybe that's why the flames are a little bit more out control. I feel like Stan and Jack may have explained that at one point where before he was like on fire so much now and then he was able to kind of harness the flame. And then we got our different the different levels of flame with Johnny. So you could even say that with the first films. But true.
01:13:12
Speaker
All of the the effects when they went in space, I thought was very, very cool on the flame on Johnny. Obviously, we've already mentioned even the end battle for short as it was and all the lightning and even with it being a little darker because they love to shoot things in the dark back then. Yeah. When when they had to light things up, it was still very clear. You could tell who was who and and the lightning effects from Victor is as still was. I don't understand why he's electro. Yeah.
01:13:39
Speaker
But even the lightening effects from Victor worked really well for me. So I'm an ingredients on the FX. And I like the costume design. I mean, I think my one criticism of the costume that I think if you're going to go with the old school design of like the blue and the really dark blue, which is probably supposed to be black, I think that you should make the blue a little bit brighter.
01:14:01
Speaker
That would be like my one my one critique about otherwise, I thought the costumes were a really nice callback to the comics. They were really they made sense to write the whole fact that these were the suits they wore into space and they helped regulate their body temperature and all that. And now they got affected by the by the cosmic radiation to all of that made perfect sense. They found a really good in story explanation for why they have to wear these suits.
01:14:25
Speaker
Yes, they did. I love the suits. I've always been a fan of the classic blue and blue or even the blue and white look. And the fact that they literally adapted that look and then didn't try to didn't try to put them in all black or put them in all leather. Right. We mentioned with X-Men and stuff and try to make them look to make them look more modern or like whatever the hell they did in the Josh Trank movie. Right. Those weird whatever the hell they did in the Josh Trank movie. Exactly.
01:14:54
Speaker
Again, and that might have been on story and maybe checklist even for saying, hey, the costumes, let's really try to do the authentic ones from the comic books, the ones that everybody recognizes when they see that number four, they know it's a fantastic four. So that was a good choice as well. Because again, for marketing reasons, easily identifiable, but then also they just look great as a team when everybody's wearing the same gear. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's because that's one of the things about the
01:15:21
Speaker
the Fantastic Four is more than any other team in Marvel. Like that team aspect is so important. So all of them having like the X-Men, they've got unifying aspects of their design. The Avengers are just all over the place because they're all individual heroes. But the Fantastic Four, like it's the X-Men, they can split off, they can do their own thing. But whatever the Fantastic Four kind of split off and do their own thing, it doesn't work as well. You always feel like there's something missing.
01:15:49
Speaker
Right. I remember reading the 2003 Human Torch book with Scottie Young going to covers back in the day. And I mean, Torch never wore his uniform. He was all and I forget like he was like in his 20s and he was just doing different little story arcs and stuff.
01:16:04
Speaker
And I was reading and I was like, I was like, I like this, but I kind of miss him being in his classic uniform. Like why can't he just wear the uniform? Like he's human torch. Like people are going to know who he is. He's obviously lighting his clothes on fire and stuff and and wearing varsity jackets on the cover of the book. And so so why can't he just throw on the uniform when he's got a fake crop? Like what's the big.
01:16:29
Speaker
Those are pretty much all the things I really wanted to say about the first movie. Do you have anything else you wanted to add? Anything that we missed?
Film's Focus on Origins
01:16:35
Speaker
No, nothing that aside from the fact that I still really love this movie and the only bad parts of it is Doom and the fact that they didn't do more Jessica Alba. That's my whole recap. I'd say also just like- Nothing else away from this people. That's my thought. I'd say also just like the lack of a real strong story is also the uniqueness of this film.
01:16:55
Speaker
So much focus on the origins and then they were like, oh crap, we got full out the rest of the runs. Yeah, exactly. It's like they spend the first half dealing with the origin story and how they get their powers and how they react to their powers. And the second half, it's like, oh shit, that's right. We're supposed to have a big battle at the end of this, aren't we? Yes. Yes, that's exactly what happened. And they do a good job with all that flushing out, but they just took too long to do it. And then there's so little time left.
01:17:19
Speaker
So, yeah, I mean, I think in retrospect, it's I don't think this is as good as the as the sequel we're going to talk about next time. It's not. But it's I think it's still better than a lot of people give it credit for. It's better than just drink. It's better than just drink. I mean, it's I mean, like, you know, I'm saying on Twitter that, you know, Rise of the Silver Surfer is the best Fantastic Four movie, which
01:17:42
Speaker
is not so much a commentary on the quality of that movie, but is more commentary on the lack of quality in the other options. Because we've had- In the Corman movie and the Trank movie. We had the Corman movie, we had the Trank movie, we've had this one, and then we had Rise of the Silver Surfer. And of those four, like these two are the best, which is the bar is very low. I will admit that, although I will also say that they're not as bad as people remember them being, I think.
01:18:08
Speaker
Absolutely, no, I really enjoy these films. And if in some strange universe, we ever get another multiverse and Chris Evans decides he wants to show up his torture, Michael Chiklis wants to be the thing again, it's all right with me. Just in a multiverse thing, don't give me a whole movie or anything. That's nothing too crazy.
Upcoming MCU Fantastic Four Speculation
01:18:26
Speaker
One thing I wanted to mention, so obviously they're doing the Fantastic Four movie with the MCU now. Yes, they are. Do you have anyone that you would want to see playing any of these characters?
01:18:41
Speaker
We'll have to come back to that. I need to think on it. All right. Well, I'll let you think on that because we're going to we're going to end the episode here and then we're going to take a break and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about the second one. Rest of you will have to wait next week to see what if Kellan's got any picks for that. I'll do some quick fantasy casting. But but why don't you tell people where they can find you?
Guest Engagement and Promotions
01:19:00
Speaker
you can find me at hyphen universe.com. First and foremost, that's where my website is. Uh, you'll find any of the cool stuff that I'm working on being posted there all the time. Uh, you can also follow me on Twitter at B hyphen B H Y P H E N on Facebook hyphen universe and on Instagram at the B hyphen. So come check me out. I got all kinds of things that you might find interesting and a good way to waste your time.
01:19:26
Speaker
All right, great. And that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And remember, if you sign up for our Patreon, you get these episodes a week in advance and you also get access to the Superhero Cinephiles book club, which is very cool. Love the book club.
01:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, doing episodes about that like once or twice a month or so, we're talking about comic books, sometimes by myself, sometimes with a guest. And you get access to that for as little as a dollar a month. So please make sure to subscribe to that on the website. And also leave us a review. You review us on iTunes, it helps us reach more people. So thanks so much for listening. And we will talk to you next time when we're talking about Rise of the Silver Surfer.
01:20:13
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:20:33
Speaker
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01:21:16
Speaker
Thank you for listening, and as always, good night, good evening, God bless.