Transcript
Speaker: Ooh, a spicy question.
Speaker: I love it.
Speaker: Because the writing is sort of everything, right?
Speaker: Like you can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this.
Speaker: So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
Speaker: This week I'm joined by a young adult author who writes dark books about strange things.
Speaker: It's Catherine Foxfield.
Speaker: Hi.
Speaker: Hiya.
Speaker: Welcome to the show.
Speaker: Such a pleasure to have you.
Speaker: Let's begin, as we often do, with your latest news, your latest publication, Getting Away With Murder, which came out in July.
Speaker: Tell us a little bit about it.
Speaker: Okay, well, it's a murderous YA thriller about a rogue AI who traps a group of friends in a high-tech escape room to determine which teenage stereotype will survive the longest in what's basically a literal game of life or death.
Speaker: But unfortunately for the teenagers, one of them is prepared to resort to murder in order to ensure their own survival.
Speaker: So not only do the survivors have to find a way to win the escape room's games and puzzles, but they have to work out which one of them is a killer if they want to make it out alive.
Speaker: Wow, that's such a good pitch.
Speaker: You hit so many notes where it's like, it's going to be funny.
Speaker: It's going to be a murder mystery.
Speaker: It's going to be dramatic.
Speaker: It's going to be like, whodunit.
Speaker: That's so cool.
Speaker: Your books in general, like the kind of creepy, dark thing, that's very much a style of your books.
Speaker: I mean, if we just read the titles of your books, Good Girls Die First, it's behind you.
Speaker: Tag, you're dead.
Speaker: Come out, come out wherever you are.
Speaker: It's pretty clear what people are getting into when they grab your book.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: what is it about that kind of dark creepiness that inspires your stories?
Speaker: I've always loved horror and thrillers.
Speaker: I think it's such a fun genre to write in because anything's possible and you get to really find out what your characters are made of because I mean, no one can pretend to be someone they're not when they're,
Speaker: facing a life or death situation.
Speaker: They have to actually show their true self.
Speaker: And I just find that really interesting.
Speaker: And it's just a lot of fun, really.
Speaker: I mean, I think since COVID came along, I've really leant into writing books that are just a bit of escapist fun.
Speaker: I mean, there is a more sort of a deeper message to them, but a lot of them is just over the top characters and slightly silly, ridiculous scenarios and
Speaker: Just something that you can kind of escape into for a few hours and kind of forget about the rest of the world.
Speaker: Yeah, like you were saying just with your latest book, there's an element of you're not taking this too seriously.
Speaker: You've put the most stereotypical teenagers in a room to be sorted, basically.
Speaker: Yeah, I love all of the kind of YA tropes and the kind of sort of John Hughes style film stereotypes.
Speaker: And I like playing with that sort of thing and poking a bit of good natured sort of fun at it.
Speaker: And yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Not taking myself too seriously.
Speaker: Whilst of course, also like threatening their lives and like, uh, the lives of people around them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: There's a lot of death.
Speaker: There's a big body count.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Um, so this is, this will be, is this the fifth novel now?
Speaker: Uh, the fourth.
Speaker: The fourth novel.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: And am I right in thinking your, the, your debut was 2020?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: So 2020 and then I've had one out every year since then.
Speaker: So it's been a bit of a roller coaster really.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, that's, wait, isn't that four novels?
Speaker: Isn't that, you're over three years, no?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Four books in three years?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So one a year.
Speaker: So yeah, three and a bit years.
Speaker: Three and a bit.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: It's quite a sort of regular pace, especially for the, the release rate of books is often tied to the genre and style of the book.
Speaker: And like one a year is kind of the,
Speaker: path of the course, I would say for, for, for sort of YA thrillers like you, right?
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: Do you have like a pretty regimented schedule to like keep you on track?
Speaker: No, I don't actually.
Speaker: So I got my book deal the week I found out I was pregnant with my second child.
Speaker: And so, and so, yeah, it was all quite, um, so it's just the past three years or so have just been a bit hectic and it's all gone by in a blur.
Speaker: And so I sort of write in the gaps between
Speaker: taking kids to school and dropping children at nursery and during nap times.
Speaker: So yeah, I don't really have a nice structured work life, which I would love.
Speaker: maybe when they're a bit older yeah okay yeah children make make that kind of structure much more difficult but speaking of getting signed speaking of where you were at you your literary agent is the the fabulous chloe seager yes presumably that partnership came about before you signed on for your for your debut publication how how did you you and chloe find each other
Speaker: So I've been querying probably for about 10 years.
Speaker: So it's been a long process for me.
Speaker: And I just wasn't really getting anywhere.
Speaker: And so at the beginning of 2019, I think it was, or 2018, I can't remember now, I decided I was going to try something different.
Speaker: And I started entering some competitions.
Speaker: And I entered the Right Mentor Children's Novel Award and got the sort of the final shortlist.
Speaker: And Chloe was a judge.
Speaker: So she picked my book as a runner-up.
Speaker: And then kind of a few days later,
Speaker: wanted to talk to me about representing me.
Speaker: So yeah, it all sort of came out of that competition.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's, I mean, I feel like that's such a great, that's one of the great things about those kinds of competitions.
Speaker: And, uh, I've, I've chatted with Stuart and Melissa loads on the podcast.
Speaker: Um, right.
Speaker: Mental does loads of great stuff like that, but that's such an interesting way of like having your book reach an agent where submitting had not worked for you, but then them seeing it in that context for some reason did work.
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I think there's such a lot of luck involved in finding the right agent.
Speaker: And I was lucky that Chloe was just moving agencies.
Speaker: So she wanted to sign a lot of people.
Speaker: And she represents the sort of book that I write.
Speaker: And it can be so difficult to get
Speaker: the agent that you want to actually sit down and read your book.
Speaker: So yeah, use any opportunity, I suppose.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you have to enter a large competition and get to the final round.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And that's how you get it in front of them.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's how to do it.
Speaker: Easy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So very exciting that you've had a book out already this year, but that is not...
Speaker: the only publication which will be featuring your, your writing for this year, as you were part of, um, the very exciting anthology, a taste of darkness, which comes out on the 14th of September.
Speaker: How did you get involved with that?
Speaker: Uh, it was Amy McCaw who I sort of know through the YA world.
Speaker: She wrote the wonderful Mina and the undead books.
Speaker: And so I chatted to her at lots of sort of, um, writing conferences and that sort of thing.
Speaker: And so she just asked me if I'd be willing to submit a pitch for the book.
Speaker: And obviously I said yes, because it sounds brilliant.
Speaker: And it's got so many great authors.
Speaker: So I'm really looking forward to that one coming out and seeing what people think of it.
Speaker: Yes, very, very exciting that.
Speaker: And I know with anthologies, it's kind of interesting.
Speaker: So I'm interested to hear that you kind of pitched what is going to be like a short story for that anthology.
Speaker: And I know with especially fantasy anthologies, authors take them as an opportunity to often expand on a part of their setting or give more background to a certain character in their kind of pre-existing universe.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Was there kind of, were there a few things that you kind of already wanted to do that you had in mind when you kind of went to pitch some ideas to Amy?
Speaker: So I kind of used it as an opportunity to write something a little bit different.
Speaker: It's still obviously horror because that's what I love.
Speaker: But I would say it's a bit darker and a bit more atmospheric than my normal books.
Speaker: It doesn't have the same sort of humour that my novels have.
Speaker: It's
Speaker: It's a bit more serious, I suppose.
Speaker: And I just wanted an opportunity to sort of get to write outside of my little brand that I've built up over the past few years with my novels.
Speaker: I hope people aren't too surprised by how different it is.
Speaker: We'll see.
Speaker: I guess my next question is, having written that, having sort of flexed some writing muscles that you hadn't explored that much yet, would you want to do that for like a full length novel, like one of your own?
Speaker: Is there kind of other things that you want to explore?
Speaker: Yeah, I definitely think so.
Speaker: I mean, I always used to write fantasy novels.
Speaker: when I was a sort of struggling unpublished writer and I ended up being a horror writer a bit by mistake.
Speaker: I'd written this horror book for a laugh just because I wasn't having any luck with my fantasy and I really enjoyed it and it was a lot of fun and it had all sorts of a bit of humor in it, which I hadn't had in any of my fantasies.
Speaker: And then obviously that was the one that was picked up by Chloe.
Speaker: And so I've now ended up writing more books like that, which is brilliant.
Speaker: But there are a lot of sort of other genres I'd like to write in.
Speaker: I'd like to go back to fantasy.
Speaker: I'd like to write some sort of proper scary monsters, which I sort of focus more on the human monsters in my current books.
Speaker: I'd like to write something really terrifying.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Would you ever do like a fantasy horror movie?
Speaker: Yes, I hope to.
Speaker: I'm actually not writing anything contracted for the next sort of four or five months.
Speaker: So I get to write whatever I want just for fun.
Speaker: And so for the past few years, I've just been sort of churning out books on contract.
Speaker: And it's quite nice to just have a little bit of a break and I can just write something for fun and see how it goes.
Speaker: When you do things like that, obviously on contracts, I'm imagining you have an editor at Scholastic who you will bounce ideas off.
Speaker: Do you also bounce ideas off Chloe?
Speaker: Yes, yes.
Speaker: So I'll sort of send them a little pitch and just see whether they think it's something that could sell just based on the pitch.
Speaker: I think my books are quite hooky in that they sort of grab you just by the sort of, oh, an escape room being controlled by an AI.
Speaker: So I need to know whether that is something that they think they can sell before I've even written anything.
Speaker: So I'll show them the pitch and every now and again, they'll say, yeah, write that one.
Speaker: There are lots of others, lots of other ideas that they say, no, don't do that.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: What's the like, what's the initial origin for most of your ideas?
Speaker: Are you the kind of writer that goes for, you kind of come up with a character first and then put them in a situation or do you come up with the situation or the setting first?
Speaker: Yeah, I tend to come up with either a setting.
Speaker: I mean, I love settings.
Speaker: So a lot of my books have been inspired by sort of creepy tourist attractions, basically like caves or piers that look a bit haunted from a distance.
Speaker: So I tend to come up with a premise or a setting and then try to work out who would be the worst person to put in that setting.
Speaker: Spend a whole book trapped with this person.
Speaker: So what will give us the most conflict and what will make it the most exciting?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Oh, okay.
Speaker: That's a very fantasy writer approach as well, to be like, build up this setting first and then put the characters in.
Speaker: Yeah, I just love the atmosphere and the world building and sort of creating a whole world.
Speaker: Do all of your books have like sort of supernatural fantastical elements in them?
Speaker: Or obviously the new one is more sort of pseudo-technology based?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So my first one, Good Girls Die First, had a supernatural baddie in it, which was brilliant to write.
Speaker: And then the next two had a hint of a sort of a suggested supernatural element that turned out to mostly be human.
Speaker: So no, at the moment, there isn't really much of a supernatural element to my writing, but I hope to get back to it at some point.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: More of like a supernatural wink as sort of like, yeah, that could be.
Speaker: Yeah, it could be.
Speaker: Is this a ghost that's stalking us or is it just a really angry teenager?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And four books in now, you've sort of, you've done this several times over.
Speaker: How, how different is the kind of experience of publishing and like going through all of those various motions this time around versus the first time you did it?
Speaker: It does get a bit easier as I go along.
Speaker: It's sort of not quite, it's quite a steep learning curve, I'd say, publishing.
Speaker: So sort of writing my second book and having an editor involved and an agent involved in sort of helping me decide what the plot's going to be.
Speaker: It was quite difficult to start off with.
Speaker: And now I'm beginning to feel like I'm getting the hang of it.
Speaker: But I mean, every book has its own challenges.
Speaker: So I still don't exactly find it easy.
Speaker: Yeah, true.
Speaker: I guess at least, you know, the more times you do this, you know what to expect, you know, four books and you kind of know how it's all going to go, like what's going to happen when and what you're going to need to do at what part of the process.
Speaker: Yeah, because there's very sort of specific editing stages that a book goes through.
Speaker: So you've got your structural edits and your line edits and your copy edits and your proofreads.
Speaker: So I've got used to
Speaker: sort of knowing what's expected at every stage now and knowing what I can do at every stage.
Speaker: So I'm not sort of emailing them at the proofread stage and saying, Hey, could we just change this chapter a little bit?
Speaker: That doesn't go down well.
Speaker: Yeah, I can, I can imagine how that, that would upset a few people, which is your, I know that people have kind of different parts of it that they struggle with, which is the most challenging part of those like, um, editing processes.
Speaker: So I really enjoy editing.
Speaker: So once I have a first draft down, I love the whole process.
Speaker: It's getting those initial words down on the page that I find difficult.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I sort of have a few months where I'm just trying to sort of get blood out of a stone and kind of get this story out of my head onto the page.
Speaker: And I find that really difficult personally.
Speaker: I know writers who can just sort of sit at their computer and just type it all out.
Speaker: And I'm very jealous of that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Are you someone that plans it then?
Speaker: Are you like a planner or are you a, let's just go for it.
Speaker: And then once it's down on the page, I'm going to kind of polish this into something.
Speaker: I try to plan and planning does make it much easier to write a book because you know where you're going.
Speaker: But I do find that I have to write it to sort of know what I'm trying to say with the book.
Speaker: So I'll tend to have a plan, I'll write it and then I'll rewrite everything once I know what the book is that I'm trying to write.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's a bit chaotic, really.
Speaker: I'd like a nice sort of streamlined process, but I don't think my brain works that way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, I get it.
Speaker: We all work in different ways.
Speaker: Um, there's also, you know, sometimes planning, I imagine this is kind of how you've like, if you over plan, sometimes that kind of takes a lot of the experience out as a writer, where it kind of, you're figuring it out as you, as you go.
Speaker: And then by planning it, you wouldn't have these kind of big emotional reactions sometimes when something happens that you hadn't anticipated, but you thought, oh no, this makes sense.
Speaker: Yeah, sometimes you have to sort of be in it and immersed in it to really kind of feel what's going to happen next.
Speaker: And when you're just writing it out as a bullet point list of what's going to happen in a chapter, you lose some of that.
Speaker: Yeah, no, yeah, that's 100% I agree with that.
Speaker: I wonder if we could change tack a bit here.
Speaker: I had an interesting question, and you mentioned this earlier just before we started recording.
Speaker: But we talked a little bit about social media.
Speaker: BookTok has, over the last couple of years, made an absolutely huge splash in publishing.
Speaker: But even before that, I do think there was, there's a, I feel like from authors that I've spoken to and just kind of being on Twitter and things, there is a sort of pressure for authors to be active on social media and cultivate large followings.
Speaker: But I know that you're not someone who's sort of, you're not super active on social media.
Speaker: So like, do you think that's true?
Speaker: And like, do you think, do you think that actually having a big social media presence translates to book sales?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think if you're good at it and it's something you love doing, then it can work brilliantly for you.
Speaker: I mean, last year we had 16 Souls by Rosie Talbot coming out.
Speaker: The big reason that that did well was because she's just absolutely brilliant at TikTok.
Speaker: And she was going to self-publish her book and then it was picked up by Scholastic because she did such a good job at promoting it herself in advance of its release.
Speaker: So if you're good at that and it's...
Speaker: Something that you can kind of, if you're good at sort of engaging with the people who are on TikTok and the readers on TikTok, then it can be brilliant.
Speaker: But I don't think you can just sort of manufacture that out of nowhere.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I find it a bit cringy, the idea of me going on TikTok and being like, hey, kids, I'm one of you, and trying to kind of sell my book that way.
Speaker: And a lot of TikTok is all about sort of readers telling other readers about books.
Speaker: I mean, there isn't that much where it's authors telling readers about their books.
Speaker: And I kind of personally feel like I'm just going to leave them to it and not sort of trying to get involved.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But, and equally, you know, your books are also selling well.
Speaker: So it's, I guess it's, it's one of those things where it's a great option to have if you are in, into that kind of thing, if you're excited by that kind of thing.
Speaker: But yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker: You can see sometimes when someone isn't comfortable using those platforms and is sort of either being like pressured into using them or like they feel like they need to, so they're trying, but it's, it doesn't, it doesn't quite translate.
Speaker: Yeah, when I got my first deal, I was a bit like, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to get on Twitter now and start actually talking about my books in public.
Speaker: And I did try, but I don't think platforms like Twitter or Instagram necessarily sell that many books.
Speaker: It's a great way to meet other authors and to meet people who love books.
Speaker: But I don't know whether there are that many books that have sold just because their authors are brilliant at social media.
Speaker: I think it's quite rare, to be honest.
Speaker: I think you can be successful without being on social media.
Speaker: Yeah, 100%.
Speaker: I think that's, that's totally true.
Speaker: Um, I think you, you're right.
Speaker: It's, it's unlikely to translate to direct sales, um, your kind of popularity on a social media platform, but who knows in this day and age, it's not even called Twitter anymore.
Speaker: So no, that's true.
Speaker: But I refuse to, I refuse to change.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: I won't change until all the big companies change.
Speaker: I go on any like website I go on, they still will have the Twitter thing.
Speaker: So I'm like, I'm not going to change until that changes on like everywhere.
Speaker: Because no one knows what you mean when you say, oh, follow me on X. And everyone's like, oh, just follow me on Twitter.
Speaker: Before we get to the final and very difficult question of the episode, I'd love to ask about some advice as someone who not only have you published four books, you've been sort of an active author for some years now.
Speaker: You also, as you said, were on sub for about 10 years and kind of tried a lot of different things.
Speaker: um what advice would you give um authors who are looking to get their their work in front of agents or publishers trying to kind of break into the industry it's it's getting harder and harder actually to sort of find an agent at the moment i know people who are submitting and they're not even getting any sort of form rejections from agents like i used to get there just it's complete silence so i think
Speaker: My big bit of advice is to not sort of tie your self-worth to getting a book published and to just remember to try and write for the love of it because nothing's guaranteed.
Speaker: I think that sounds quite cynical and negative, but yeah, there's no guarantees in this industry.
Speaker: So you have to remember to just write the things you love and enjoy the process of writing them.
Speaker: Yeah, I was actually reading that as a positive thing.
Speaker: I was thinking, hey, that's a very healthy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Don't tie your self-worth to the success of, you know, one piece of writing that you've done.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Keep writing, keep enjoying it, keep putting out new stuff.
Speaker: Yeah, just keep trying new things, really.
Speaker: Don't be scared to give up on one project and start something new.
Speaker: I think that's something I found hard in the past.
Speaker: When you put so much effort into one thing, you don't want to let it go.
Speaker: But sometimes you have to move on.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I mean, look at your experience, for example, you predominantly wrote fantasy and then you moved into a sort of fun, horror, mystery genre.
Speaker: And here you are.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You have to find your own voice, I suppose, and find what it is that you're good at.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Always good to experiment with new genres and styles and things like that, I think.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Even if you don't stick with them, there's so much to learn by trying a different way of writing.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: Have a bit of fun with it.
Speaker: And that brings us to the final question of the episode, which as always is a very difficult one to answer.
Speaker: Catherine, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book would it be?
Speaker: So I've thought about this and it's a very difficult question, but I think at the moment my choice would be Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, just because I loved it so much when I first read it and I haven't read it for years.
Speaker: And then I've watched the TV series and I love them as well.
Speaker: So yeah, I'm going to go with Good Omens.
Speaker: I think that'll keep me going for a while.
Speaker: It's one of my favourites.
Speaker: Terry Pratchett's one of my all-time favourites.
Speaker: Also a big fan of Neil Gaiman.
Speaker: Good Omens is just, it's such a good, such a good book.
Speaker: It's great.
Speaker: It's two of the greats together because Neil Gaiman's always been one of my favourite authors.
Speaker: I love his kind of dark imagination.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then Terry Pratchett's sort of nonsensical whimsy, which somehow... I know.
Speaker: It's just sort of, I don't know how he used to come up with his ideas.
Speaker: It's just brilliant.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And so wholesome as well.
Speaker: You know, even in the sort of darkest time, it's like there's always a wholesome angle to Terry Pratchett's work.
Speaker: And I recently watched the season two of the television series, which I was apprehensive about because as a big fan of the book, you're like, okay, well, the season one was book one.
Speaker: And then it's like, oh, they're doing season two.
Speaker: And I was like, oh, God.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it was different season two.
Speaker: I was quite sad, but I did love it.
Speaker: Because I knew that Neil Gaiman was heavily involved in the sort of writing and the production.
Speaker: I very much appreciated how, because I saw an interview with the two of them once where I think I read the interview as I read in the back.
Speaker: And they very much the sort of children's, just William stuff was all written by Terry Pratchett.
Speaker: And then all of the, all of the Crawley and Aziraphale stuff was mostly Neil Gaiman, but then they kind of, they swapped and edited their stuff and then gave it back.
Speaker: So I watching season two, I was like, oh, this makes sense because obviously you're not writing it with Terry Pratchett.
Speaker: So yeah, that's true.
Speaker: Actually, I do feel like it's sort of more focused on that side of things.
Speaker: I can see why now.
Speaker: Yeah, which is the Neil Gaiman influence of it.
Speaker: But it was great.
Speaker: I loved it.
Speaker: I thought it was fantastic.
Speaker: And that's a great choice.
Speaker: I thoroughly approve of this edition to the library.
Speaker: Amazing.
Speaker: Well, thank you so much, Catherine, for coming on the podcast, telling us about what you've been working on, what you are working on, and just kind of your experiences in publishing.
Speaker: It's been really, really fun chatting with you.
Speaker: It's been brilliant.
Speaker: Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker: And for anyone listening, if you want to keep up with what Catherine is doing, you can follow her on Twitter and Instagram at Catherine Foxfield.
Speaker: To make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow along on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook.
Speaker: You can support the show on Patreon.
Speaker: And for more Bookish Chat, check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
Speaker: Thanks again to Catherine and thanks to everyone listening.
Speaker: We'll catch you on the next episode.
