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The Pressure of Being the Catalyst with Michelle Jenkins
32 Plays4 months ago
At The Second Voice, we explore the inner conversations leaders rarely say out loud. In this episode, we discuss how change is never easy — but what if you’re the one leading it? The voice that drives transformation is also the one that questions whether the cost is too high. Today, we’re diving into the private self-talk of leaders who are catalysts for big change. Our guest is Michelle Jenkins, an extraordinary leader with diverse experience and an incredible talent for creating change.
Hosted by Luisa Hogan, leadership resilience strategist and founder of Vermelho Consulting.
Luisa works with founders, executives, and senior leaders who carry real responsibility and want to lead with steadiness, clarity, and self-trust under pressure.
Her work focuses on nervous system regulation, leadership identity, and the inner dialogue that shapes how leaders show up when things are hard.
If this episode resonated, it is likely because the second voice is active in your leadership too.
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Transcript
Introduction of Leadership and Change
00:00:00
Speaker
Change is never easy, but what if you are the one driving it? The voice that drives transformation is also the voice that questions whether it's all worth it. And today we're driving into the self-talk of leaders who are the catalyst for change.
00:00:16
Speaker
Welcome back to The Second Voice, where we uncover the conversations that leaders don't say say out loud.
Meet Michelle Jenkins
00:00:22
Speaker
And today I'm joined by a leader that I have the greatest amount of respect for. I've worked with her multiple times in different roles, and I've been ah been worked with her as a consultant also. And you are in for a treat today. Michelle Jenkins is usually known as the catalyst for change because everywhere she goes, she makes huge transformation in the organizations that she leads. And a little bit about Michelle, she's an experienced executive in the aged care, disability and financial services sectors and is very experienced in strategic management and planning. She's extremely passionate about the advancement of women into leadership roles. And it's important for her to work with younger women to advance them into those leadership roles. She's also a certified heart math trainer and she helps build resilience in individuals and teams that she works with. And she's currently studying a master's of counseling and already has a master in business leadership. And I don't know where she finds the time to all to do all of this. And I can't wait for you to hear her story because Michelle is the kind of person that just makes things
Journey and Achievements
00:01:31
Speaker
happen. And today we're going to explore the pressure of being the catalyst for change because Michelle is well-versed in that. And thank you so much much, Michelle, for taking time out of your day to be with me. I love chatting with you and I can't wait for others to hear what you have to say. So thank you.
00:01:47
Speaker
You're welcome. And I'm doing a Masters of Mental Health. the man so Really? Oh, I'm sorry. it's Not a Masters of Counselling. So I've already done an advanced diploma in transpersonal counselling and transpersonal art therapy. So I already have those. Yeah. And in HeartMath, HeartMath Certified Resilience Trainer, but also Trauma Trainer as well.
00:02:08
Speaker
Amazing. I truly don't know. you or Every time I speak to you, you've started something new and you're always learning and evolving and I love that about you. That's part of being a leader, I think, you know, that you always have to continue to refresh your own skills. um And I think the world is evolving and the world of leadership is evolving. You know I'm busily working now with my ah RTO team on developing a program which is human-led leadership for the AI era.
00:02:36
Speaker
which will be done at Cert 3, Cert 4 levels. So because it's one thing to have AI as part of your suite, as part is part of what you use every day. It's another thing to actually know how to lead people to be able to use AI. efficiently, effectively, applying governance and ethical principles to it. So yeah, so we're developing a course on that. We've just had it accredited. So watch this space. Amazing.
00:03:00
Speaker
Well, how did you get there? all right. So let's let's start with your journey because i want to i want to learn more about what you're doing now, but let's start your early journey. And I love the story of where you started and I love the stories that you tell about where you started. us So tell us where you started and and what you're doing now.
00:03:16
Speaker
Oh, God, if I go back like many, many years, um I started off as a secretary. um So I went to secretarial college and I learned to use things that are obsolete now. You only find them in museums like gestetner machines and things like that, you know.
00:03:33
Speaker
I went to learn shorthand and everything. And for me, I mean, I wanted to be a high flying secretary. I wanted to fly all over the world. I have that sense of adventure. You know, this is what I was going to do. And it was a great way to be able to do it. um And then I sort of stumbled into the insurance arena and I started off work with Royal Insurance many, many years ago.
00:03:52
Speaker
just as a clerk doing superannuation, managing corporate super. um And so that was what I did. And I progressed from there then into self-employed super.
00:04:03
Speaker
um So I learned a lot about how to do this. And this was in the yeah UK, by the way. Learned a lot about superannuation over that time. Then I decided I needed to know about the life insurance part of the business, because that was the bit that was missing. So I did that. Then I became the office manager. And then sort of seven years into my journey,
00:04:22
Speaker
decided that I was going to quit. And the reason that I quit was because as a female at that point in time, a you didn't get any superannuation and B, you weren't entitled to a staff mortgage unless you were married or had worked there for seven years. So on my seventh year, I went into the manager's office and said, I want my staff mortgage. And they said, oh, oh, we're not sure. And I said, right, well, here's my resignation. And I left.
00:04:47
Speaker
um So I then went to work for a company called Pearson Jones and I went in there as Andrew Pearson's EA and 17 years after that ended up being the first female board director that Pearson Jones had at the age of 32 and the only female that sat on that board being the director responsible for all the administrative functions of the business and and everything else that happened as well as having my own financial planning. portfolio as well and a ah group of clients that I worked for. Wow.
00:05:19
Speaker
wow Yeah. So you drove the change that you wanted right? Yeah, absolutely. So that's amazing. And, you know, as part of that change, we moved and and it's really weird to me now because in in some respects in Australia, i almost feel like
Strategic Thinking and Organizational Future
00:05:33
Speaker
I'm having deja vu because we...
00:05:36
Speaker
put in these massive big printing machines. And these printing machines not only did printing, but they emailed. You could have letterhead in there, plain paper in there. We could all print to the same machine. It scanned it. It created an electronic copy. It put it on the file. We were connected to the ASX so we could download all the prices and do automated portfolio updates and things like that. And when I came to Australia, we didn't have that. It was almost like we were on dial-up still, you know, i can still hear those dial tones of trying to connect to the internet. so I felt like I'd gone backwards a little bit. yeah
00:06:12
Speaker
And then even in some of the things that we're doing today, you know, paperless offices, everything being digitised, we were there over 30 years ago in the yeah UK. And in Australia, we're still sort of on that journey to be able to get there. And some of the things that we do, I think, are really quite antiquated. yeah um And so I think, you know, we've got a long way to go as a country to get to where we need to be. and But I think, you know, we're making steps in the right direction now. But, you know, I'm always trying to think about where are we going to go and whatever organisation? I mean, where are we going to go? And I'm always thinking sort of three, five years ahead of where we are right now. Because where we are right now is purely operational and where we need to get strategically is here. And so what are the steps that we need to take to
Adaptability in Aged Care Sector
00:07:00
Speaker
get there? So I'm always thinking about those sorts of things. Well, yeah, I i know that about you, that you are very much that kind of person. So then you moved to Australia.
00:07:08
Speaker
i did. And then you went into banking here, didn't you? I did, yes. So um I did a project for the board of Bankwest, which was around the what can we do with the Trustwest financial planning business? um They then proceeded to merge with Precedent Financial Planning and I went across there to help them establish Plan B. So I did a lot of work sort of putting together the internal infrastructure of how can we do that and looking into things. From there, I went to work for St George Bank. so
00:07:40
Speaker
In St. George, I was working and in the mortgage origination team. So we did all the mortgages for Western Australia, or all the administration and approvals and everything. We set up a doc prep team because we didn't have one in Western Australia and it was the bit that was missing out of our process. So we created a doc prep team in w a And then I worked on the back office offshoring to India of that process so that we could turn things around 24-7. So we were just literally 24 hours a day operation.
00:08:11
Speaker
um So there was a big project, obviously, in offshoring that process and making sure that it was secure, but that all the documents actually were retained onshore. um So, you know, that was a big, a big effort. um And then moved to Westpac, where I was the first head of commercial banking that Westpac had that was female and remained that for five years.
00:08:34
Speaker
Amazing. so yeah i was to And it was tough to do that in those days. So, you know, to to be the first, you know, to, to drive that, that's incredible. And,
00:08:46
Speaker
I just love about you. Like you don't see, if you know Michelle, you don't, Michelle sees no barriers. There's no barriers. No, there's no barrier. There's no glass ceiling. I don't see it. I think, you know, we put obstacles in front of ourselves and I think sometimes when we put um a name to something, you know, and I've always said this about the aged care disability, you know, age is but a number, right? If you put a number on something and you say, you're oh, it's like me, I'm over 65 now, so therefore I am aged. So when I try
Overcoming Barriers in Career
00:09:16
Speaker
to give you an example, I tried to download an exercise program the other day and it asked me my age.
00:09:21
Speaker
I am now doing seated exercises because I'm over 65. It's like I walk every day with my dogs, you know, so it's like I'm quite capable of standing up and doing exercise.
00:09:32
Speaker
But we put these labels on things and when we put labels on things and when we pigeonhole things, then that's the perspective that we put on it. you know If we put a glass ceiling there in front of ourselves, there's a glass ceiling.
00:09:46
Speaker
If you don't put a glass ceiling there, there is absolutely nothing stopping you. Sometimes, I mean, my dad used to say this, and I know you and I have talked about this before, Sometimes the route to how you get there is not a straight line.
00:09:58
Speaker
Sometimes you have to meander a little bit, but eventually you'll get there and you have to think about things differently. No such word as can't. You can do it, but sometimes you just have to find a different way to be able to do it. yeah um and And that's me. That's what I do. I don't accept that I can't do something. Yeah.
00:10:16
Speaker
I sometimes have to find a different way to be able to do it, like seated exercises, you know, because I'm over 65. Yeah, that's not going to work. I can't get ah can't count how many times you've said to me, there's no such thing as can't or no don't use the negative word. Your brain doesn't understand it your brain can only ever prove you right. I know. You've shifted a lot of my thinking over the years. And I have you to thank for a lot of my mindset because you've been that kind of a person who's always just gone, no, that there is no barrier there. And your brain does what you tell it to do. And you you control your brain, not the other way around. Yeah.
00:10:51
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. You know, what you think about becomes a reality. So if you think you can't do something, your brain has got to prove you're right so you can't do it. yeah And you it will put everything in your way to actually prevent you from being able to do it. If you tell yourself you can do it,
00:11:07
Speaker
And you go, well, I can do it. I can't do it that way, but I could do it if I did it this way. Might take me a little bit longer, but I'll go that way because that way I know I can do it. Yeah.
00:11:18
Speaker
Amazing. So then what got you to the aged care space? You went from banking. What a world. And then what a change to go into not-for-profit community services space.
00:11:30
Speaker
What have you been doing there? Because this is you know this is where I started to meet you in those early days of you transitioning out of banking. So, I mean, for me, it was um I had a health issue, as you know. I've got a prosthetic disc in my neck now um and driving up and down the Mitchell Freeway and the Kwinana Freeway and doing 40,000 kilometres a year wasn't actually doing me any good. And um what happened was that I had such a bad incident with my neck that I had to stop work for a considerable amount of time. And so I decided that was a time for me to step away and actually have a breather and just allow my body to repair itself and for me to do what I needed to do
Mindfulness in Leadership
00:12:12
Speaker
to repair my body. At the same time, you know, reflecting back, I was sort of saying, you know, you've done this Masters of Business Leadership and you're not really using it where you are. you know, wonder if it translates into a different sector. Could I use those leadership skills elsewhere? So I started looking at what may be other opportunities and stumbled upon aged care and moved into the aged care sector and was very surprised when i when i moved into aged care that everybody was saying, oh, it's so hard, Michelle, and, you know, you'll never be able to understand it. And I was like,
00:12:46
Speaker
ah yeah, I think that I can. That relates very similar to an insurance type contract. So yeah, I think I'm getting my head around it. And I always remember one of the aged care assessment teams saying to me, oh, Michelle, you're not from this sector. So you better sit back and listen because you won't understand it. And I just thought, well, I need to read the Aged Care Act then, don't I?
00:13:06
Speaker
Because I obviously don't know enough about this sector. So i did. So the next meeting i went to, so the um ACAT said something and I said, oh, well, actually under 11.2 point whatever it was, because I'd read the Aged Care Act, that's not actually true. yeah you can actually do this.
00:13:26
Speaker
And I always remember then going to a session which was being run by Centrelink, as it was at the time, talking about the contributions and the way it would work and everything.
00:13:36
Speaker
And I said to this guy, um I think you've got your facts wrong and your numbers are wrong. And he said, no, no, no, this is right. And so I pulled out my iPad and I said, well, according to your website, this is actually right. And according to the Aged Care Act, this is actually right. So what you're telling us is not right.
00:13:51
Speaker
So you need to get your facts right. um And, you know, I think for all of us, yeah, we make mistakes. We're only human. But, you know, if you want to try and teach somebody else, at least get your facts right first. Because those mistakes and those learned behaviours get passed along. So, you know, if I'm coaching somebody else or if I'm mentoring somebody else or if I'm just just even working with them on something, I'm taking all that bad knowledge, you know, into that situation and I'm passing it on and those people are learning those bad behaviours. So, you know, I think it's really important that we do the learning and the learning piece is something that I'm really big on. I mean, where I am now in Youth Futures...
00:14:36
Speaker
I didn't know anything about education, particularly not care school education. Yes, my son went through school, so I knew, you know, I went through school too, so I know a little bit about learning, but I didn't know about care schools. I didn't know about crisis care centres, so I had to learn. So what did I do? i caught the manual and I read the manual and I highlighted the bits that I needed to know to be able to inform me to be able to then lead a team. um And I don't know everything.
00:15:03
Speaker
I defer to them. I ask them. You have subject matter experts sitting around you. i have a great pens principal I have a great head of homelessness services. I have a great RTO manager. You've worked with all of them. You've coached them. You've helped develop them alongside me. And now I'm seeing the benefit of that because they're running with a lot of things. So it's not all down to me. You know, putting the the strong, robust team around you is a really important part of that process. Yeah, 100%. So moving into aged care.
00:15:36
Speaker
it was essential to have good people around me that understood aged care, that understood disability, that understood veterans care, family day care. But you can learn these things. The fact that you're in a different sector, the fact that all of my career pretty much was in finance at that corporate level didn't mean to say that I couldn't translate those skills into another sector. I could. And I actually then found that the knowledge and what I'd learned in those other the sectors translated into something that would be beneficial for the so sector that I was working in.
00:16:10
Speaker
I mean, this is a podcast about self-talk. So what what does your self-talk tell you? Because on that on the surface level, I'm just hearing somebody who's ultra confident says, no, I can do it and I've got translatable skills. Do you ever feel that sense of, um you know, imposter syndrome? does that Does that ever hit you or that sense of maybe I shouldn't be working here? This isn't my background. This isn't my space. For sure. yeah Absolutely.
00:16:36
Speaker
Absolutely. In everything. I think in In every role that you do where it's not something that you would naturally do, that you don't feel ultra confident about, yeah, there's that sense, you know, well, I'm an imposter in all of this. But I think what you have to say to yourself is,
00:16:52
Speaker
Yes, I might be an imposter in this and they may know more than me, but actually I am bringing something to the table too. And so I am going to anchor to what I am bringing to the table. And this is what I bring. I bring leadership, you know, so that's what I bring. I bring coaching, I bring transparency. I bring all of the things that you would want to see in a transformational leader. So, you know, I bring those skills to the table.
00:17:17
Speaker
I don't necessarily have all the knowledge about education. I don't necessarily have all the knowledge about homelessness services. But what I do do is bring to the table the skills that can help those people to progress and bring out the best in them.
00:17:31
Speaker
as a good solid leader, somebody that can that they can depend on in a moment of crisis or even to give them guidance if they're not sure. Because I think imposter syndrome, it's just there. It's at the back of your head. It's that little voice that, you know, sits on your shoulder and goes, you can't do that. And I go, yes, I can. Yeah. That's the second voice, right? So the first voice is the one that says all the negative stuff. Yeah. And the second voice that everyone really needs to find is that voice that says, ah no this is the reality this is how I calm myself. This is how I steady myself. This is what I can bring. But it's a much quieter voice because it's grounded in calmness. And unless you allow yourself to hear it, you're always going to be listening to that first voice of chaos and doubt and negativity, right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was really fortunate when I worked at Westpac that they had a great leadership training course, which was run by a Buddhist monk or a former Buddhist monk, Kamal Sama. And Kamal spent a lot of time with us as leaders trying to teach us how to just sit and be.
00:18:33
Speaker
And it's very hard as a leader to just sit and be. But sometimes that's exactly what you need to do because you can get so caught up in the day-to-day and you're that little hamster on that wheel running at a million miles an hour dealing with everything, everybody's crisis, your crisis, whatever is happening outside work, etc.,
00:18:53
Speaker
that you have to just take the time to just and breathe. My time's first thing in the morning. That's my time when I walk my dogs. That's my mindfulness. That's just me. That's podcasting my ear or a book that I'm listening to and I'm off walking with the dogs. Don't talk to me because I'm not a nice person. I i won't appreciate you breaking into my time. I'm probably going to tell you to shut up. I don't want to listen to you.
00:19:19
Speaker
um Because that's my time. That's how I ground me. That's how I centre me for whatever is going to happen for the rest of the day. so and And that's precious to me. And I've learned that over the years that I have to have that time. And then I can be there for everybody else. When I leave work in the car, I put either read the radio on and I listen to songs that I can sing to.
00:19:42
Speaker
and I sing and I wriggle as I sing, you know, and i sort of wriggle dance on the seat as I'm driving home. I've witnessed this. As I'm driving home, I do that. Or I listen to a book again, because again, it's a way of grounding me before I actually walk into the house, then I can be present in the house for whatever I need to be present
Driving Change and Facing Resistance
00:20:02
Speaker
for.
00:20:02
Speaker
But I can't do it with that. I can't just take that baggage with me. whatever you know Whatever is there, whatever I've got from the day, I've got to shake it off, yeah as Taylor Swift would say. I call it emotional hygiene. You wash your hands when you touch something dirty and you should do the same for emotions, just have a little bit of emotional hygiene. And i I don't even save it for just the morning. I try and do it in between things meetings or if I've been in a workshop, I come out and have emotional hygiene out of that workshop and then I go into my next meeting so that I don't carry the baggage and the heaviness from one thing into the next, right? Just grounding yourself in those moments. Three breaths is all it takes. Just three, 90 seconds. Three deep breaths and just...
00:20:43
Speaker
refocus yourself and you can do it while you're sitting here we can do it while we're sitting here you know you don't have to let other people know that that's what you're doing but it just re-centers re-grounds you so that you're present for whatever you need to be present for yeah now there's something else I know you know you bring coaching and leadership and all those amazing skills but you also are definitely that catalyst for change which I alluded to at the beginning of this episode You are very good at seeing what needs to shift to move something forward. You are very good at seeing what is holding an organisation back or what will drive it forward. What is a strategically good move? So you...
00:21:25
Speaker
And you aren't fearless in going, okay, I need to make this happen. And it's not always popular decisions. It's not always popular decisions. Tell me more about that. Where does that come from? What's the self-talk behind that? What drives you in that?
00:21:42
Speaker
I think that goes back to um that what do I bring to the table. It's those skills, you know, that I have seen over my years in different organisations, things that have been done well, things that have not been done well. And I'm probably guilty of some of those myself along the way because we all are, we all make mistakes. But I think also, you know, when I look at an organisation, I think where is that organisation going to be in five years' time?
00:22:08
Speaker
And for many, and and I'll talk about the not-for-profit sector because I think it's a sector that needs to change because in every not-for-profit organisation that i've I've worked with, it's needed a lot of change. um We need to sort of look at, well, where am I going to be in five years? What will I look like in five years? What will I look like in 10 years? you know And if I can't see a pathway forward for that organisation, I know it's got to change because it's not going to exist in five years' time or 10 years' time or 15 years' time. So it's then like, okay, if this was my business, so if I owned this business, it was mine, what would I do?
00:22:50
Speaker
So taking everything that I know, and it's a bit like financial planning. It's the way that you do ethical financial planning for a client is that I say, I'm you, Louisa. This is me. This is where I want to be. This is what I want to do. If I was you with the knowledge that I've got, what would I do? And it's those same principles that I apply when I go into an organisation. And sometimes it's not going to be popular. And often people think I'm just there to cut heads. I'm not, you know. What I want to do is retain people. I don't want to lose people. Good people are hard to find. So you want to try and retain them. You have to acknowledge, though, that along the way you are going to lose some people because there are people that are not going to believe in your journey. There are people who are not resilient to change, who are fearful of change. And as a result of that, they leave and they go find positions elsewhere. And that's fine because that's their choice. And probably there are some people within your organisation that you hope would leave and because they're not the right fit for where you're going. And they can be. And John Cotter's really great around this, around, you know, accelerating change um is, you know,
00:24:02
Speaker
they can be a catalyst to the change that you want to achieve if you can get them to engage and embrace the process that you're going through and if you co-opt them onto your team yeah to be part of that change process. um And that's a hard thing to do because you've got to build that trust first. And that's ah a long journey. It's not a short journey. You can't just go in there, turn everything around in six weeks and then go, there you go, my job's done. It's not. It's a long process to get that cultural change that you want to see and to make that organisation sustainable into the future. For sure.
00:24:39
Speaker
But you're going to be unpopular at the start. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And you're unpopular with yourself because you know some of the decisions that you're going to have to make are going to be unpopular. And you're always thinking about your people and you're always thinking about the impact and you always have multiple plans. Okay, so this is my plan A. This is where I'd really like to go. This is the implication of that. Okay, if that doesn't work and if I get this sort of kickback, well, I'll go to plan B. Okay. And if I go to plan B, this is what it's going to take. This is where I'm going to have to go. This is what the impact of that is going to be. This is the
Building Trust and Team Resilience
00:25:13
Speaker
timeline of that. Oh, okay, now I've hit another roadblock. What's my plan C? So you're reworking all the time what you need to do. listening to your people along the way, listening to the feedback, changing where you need to change. But you also have a point that you have to get to. So there are some changes that you can't make and people will always expect that because you've asked of them that you're going to do it because they've given you that feedback so therefore you should action that straight away. You can't necessarily action it straight away. Sometimes you have to wait a few months until a few steps further on down down the line. Then you can action it.
00:25:50
Speaker
But initially you can't. um It makes you unpopular. You know, I've been told in some cases I'm sitting on top of a totem pole. So, you know, it's like it makes you unpopular. But you have to go through that process. But you do it in such a way where you try your best to make sure that you minimize the harm to your people along the way. that you do listen to them and you try to put steps in place in the process, but you are never going to be able to please everybody because there is always somebody that's going to say well, that's not what I want.
00:26:24
Speaker
That's not what I need. I don't like that. Yeah. I mean, I know I work, as you know, change management programs for the last nine years with my consulting practice and A lot of the work I do is making people feel, leaders feel comfortable with the fact that some people are going to leave and are not going to be happy with the changes, but you've got to stay true to what that change is yeah Have you ever had a situation that's knocked your confidence? Has anything ever knocked your confidence? Because you, in my mind, I always think Michelle, she's the epitome of confidence in my mind, right? But
00:26:59
Speaker
When is your confidence or when has it been knocked? I think it's been knocked a few times, you know, but I think that I am resilient enough to feel when that's happening and when i don't feel that um I'm going to be able to do what I need to do. um And I have to take a step back at that point and I have to reassess, you know, am I the right person to be able to do this? um And I have a a little sort of process that I go through where I give myself a bit of a pep talk. But there are situations that over the years that I've been in where I haven't agreed with some of the things that have happened. um
00:27:42
Speaker
And that's been really hard when you know that you have to roll out a process as a manager and you don't agree with that process. And, you know, there there are times when because of that I've gone home and I've actually sat in a chair with a glass of wine and I've had a good cry because I i don't feel good in myself, but I know that that's what the organisation requires me to do and therefore that's what I'm going to do um But at the same time, you know, you're playing a balancing game sometimes with your own ethical values and your own moral values and what an organisation needs. And sometimes they're in conflict.
00:28:27
Speaker
And when they are in conflict, it can be quite painful. But you've got to find a way to be able to move through that. And it's a little bit like I said before, it's that little meander journey. You've got to find a way that you can do it that feels comfortable enough for you to be able to do what the organisation requires. Because at the end of the day, you're employed to protect the organisation, to do the best thing by the organisation. If you do that right, you'll have a good, strong, robust organisation and a solid workforce.
00:28:56
Speaker
But if you get that wrong, then it can be quite disastrous. So you're working as a leader all the time on yourself. So at the same time as you're doing all these things so to help the business, to help your employees, you've also got to help yourself. Mm-hmm. Because you're not good. it's so It's like as a parent, you know, you're no good to your kids if you're not good.
00:29:17
Speaker
You know, when you're feeling sick, you know, you want to snap the head off and you haven't got enough time for them and you just wish that go watch the TV or go play outside or whatever. It's the same principle. You know you just want to be left alone for a little bit to lick your own wounds and then you'll come out and you'll be good again. yeah Has your self-talk changed a lot from your early years in leadership compared to now? Oh, God, yeah.
00:29:39
Speaker
In what way Do you know what? I think when I was a young leader, there was nothing could stop me. Like, oh, I was a, well, and Andy Pearson used to call me the Rottweiler. That was his nickname for me. still think you're the Rottweiler.
00:29:55
Speaker
but a A cuddly one. he used to say, where's the Rottweiler? had to say, I'm here. You know, he would come looking for me. If there was something that needed to be dealt with, he'd say, we'll put the rock we'll just put the Rottweiler on it. She'll sort it out, you know. And I think that's where it all probably started, really. um this this Your identity was that then. Yes, I think it was. I think it was. And so I was very much, um you know, if there's an issue needs to be dealt with, I'm going to deal with it. I'm going to face everything head on and I'm just going to deal with it. And I'm still like that now, you know. My dad used to refer to me a little bit as a bullet a gate. um But, you know, it's that I need to, there's a solution in there somewhere. I need to find that solution. So we're going to keep working this problem till we find that solution. um So for me, it's like, okay, this is the issue. This is how I'm going to deal with it This is what the outcome is going to be. Is that the outcome that I want? Yes, it is. Okay, that's the way we're going. That's what we're going to do. And so in my head, i I work through these processes. um But I
Personal Growth and Continuous Learning
00:31:01
Speaker
also have, you know, two great companions now that I use pretty, pretty daily, you know, ChatGPT and Claude. And I test my thinking in AI. I go, this is what I think about this. What do you think? Justify your reason. You know, give me the information, find this, right? Give me what I need. Go and analyse this. Tell me, am I thinking, you know, great way of checking me, checking my thinking, you know, and and I love AI for that reason, for that purpose. Yeah.
00:31:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's good. So you're not the Rottweiler now in your mind? No. not who I think I can be. I think I can be given certain circumstances. yeah i probably can be, but I think for the majority... What I try to do is, you know, be fair to everybody. You know, it it's you don't need to upset people.
00:31:55
Speaker
You just need to be able to communicate with people in a way that they understand. and You have to be able to listen to them. And there are times when you can do that and when you have, you know, time to be able to work through that. And there's other times where it has to be reasonably quick. And often when I've had to have a quick chat with somebody afterwards, I think, oh, God,
00:32:15
Speaker
I should have given that more time, but I just don't have more time. I think one of the things that I've learned along the way is that, you know, I need to allow that time if I want to have certain conversations with people, not just quick conversations, because you don't necessarily con convey the message in the way that you've wanted to. So I've learned a lot about that over the years, um but I can still be pretty quick, but I'm not as snappy as I used to be. No. A little bit older now and a little bit wiser and a little bit slower, which is why I have to do the, you know, shit chair exercises. Now you're in chair exercises and leadership too, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. Oh, it's funny. I mean, what do you do then? Like, because as we've kind of touched on, but, you know, sometimes you' are the people's perception of you
00:33:02
Speaker
They don't understand that other layer that you're thinking through about the decisions you're making and the changes that you're making that impacts them. And they have a perception of you that may be one thing that's not entirely accurate because they don't have all the information. So I think a less experienced, less wise leader would have a knee-jerk reaction to try defend themselves all the time. And I've never... found you to be that kind of a leader but what do you do to mend that relationship or build trust when you're facing that in during transformation?
00:33:32
Speaker
I think you've got to be prepared to put a pause on things you know if you can depends on what kind of transformation you're going through but if you can just pause or slow it down I've just said to my team right now um look I think that the staff are getting a little bit um over the change because we've had to change quite a bit in a very short period of time. So there's been a lot of change process that we've needed to do. i think I just need to step back a little bit, take my foot off the accelerator a little bit and just slow it down. Can I do it?
00:34:05
Speaker
In some areas, yes. In other areas, no. And so I've got to try and balance that now for the next 12 months to get the change that that I want to e effect. And I'll probably get more from it by doing that, by just taking my foot off the accelerator and slowing that down, more so than what I will if I just keep charging ahead. you know So as much as I want to do something, now what I'm going to do is pick my battles. That's something that I can't change. This is why now I have to be super, super communicative in relation to that particular aspect of it less so on the other things that can go ahead quietly behind the scenes without any knowledge so not a bull at the gates anymore no a more controlled bull yeah a more controlled bull yeah the rings through my nose now so people can read me back i love it Hopefully not running through the streets of Spain. No, Pamplona. No, no, can't do that. I have to sit in a chair to do my exercises.
00:35:04
Speaker
yeah but All right, so amazing journey. And journey still continues because now you're exploring the counselling work. You set up your own little counselling practice before you took on this role and that's on pause at the moment? Yeah, I see a couple of clients but I don't do what I'd originally intended I was going to do. you get married into coming and help. At a million miles and hours. Yeah, that's right. Which is why, you know, I decided that I'd do the Masters of Mental Health because I still want to do more counselling. But honestly, when I set out, I was doing a Masters of Psychology and I just thought this is all theory, theory, theory. You know, this is just a bit ridiculous now. And I think the world has moved on from some of the theories of Freud and Ericsson and everything else Yes, they're a great benchmark. It's like building a house, isn't it? You know, that's great for the concrete pad. But the world has changed.
00:35:57
Speaker
You know, houses have changed. The way that we build houses has changed. So we have to change. And that's what I liked about the transformational counselling, you know. So when when you're doing that, you're talking to the whole person.
00:36:12
Speaker
And you're talking about whatever issue that person brings to you on that day. It's like what you do at work. So it translates naturally into what you do as a leader. So I loved it for that. And I love it art and I love the art therapy because it's such a soft way of being able to work, particularly with younger people, traumatised people.
00:36:33
Speaker
to help them to get to where they need to be, but for them to work out the process, not for you to tell them this is the way that you should do it and how you should do it. It's actually for them to work out the process as as you go through your counselling. So I loved it for that. And that translates for me into what I do every day, into the way that I communicate with the people that work with me. and into the challenges that they face. you know ah I just had a conversation with one of my execs today who showed me a set of numbers and all these different things that he had. And I said, did you put that in your budget for like for next year? And he said, yes. And I said, so why are you asking me then?
00:37:11
Speaker
And he said, well, because it's still this year. And I said, so are you asking me if you can have it this year? Or would you rather wait until the 1st of January when you have the approval to be able to do it and you don't have to ask me? It's your call, not mine.
00:37:23
Speaker
Which way do you want to go? And he went, oh, yeah, good point and walked out. Thanks for that. You know, sometimes it's just a little bit of questioning, a little bit of reflection for the people that you're working with. I am trying to get them to step up and manage their business areas, something which they've never had the ability to be able to do. So I'm not going to enable them by coming to me. I'm going to question into that.
00:37:48
Speaker
yeah So I think being curious has is what doing the transpersonal counselling has has brought for me that I can take away is be curious about some of the things that you're being asked.
00:38:00
Speaker
Yeah, i love that. That's one of my mantras and something I coach a lot of people on is like a lot of this problem that you have can be resolved with you being more curious about the situation rather than needing to know the answer, you know, just just ask the right questions and then that it will come to you, right? But that's quite a shift, I think, from, you know, being this catalyst for huge transformation and into art therapy and counselling you know, as as somebody who's started the business and is planning potentially in the future to go back to it, i'm you know, and you may or may not, but what's what's the shift in self-talk there that's changed you from, okay, I'm i'm the Rottweiler, the bull at the gates, but now on a change in pace. Is it a change in pace that you're after or is it just your your leadership and what you want to do has evolved?
00:38:50
Speaker
I think both. Yeah. um I think there is a change in pace. You know, as I'm getting older, I don't want to be working 60-hour weeks anymore. um But at the same time, I've still got lots that I want to do and I still want to challenge myself. And I think that there's still a lot that I can do to work with and help other people as well. So I still have a lot to give. And I think um part of being a leader is that need to serve. You're there for other people. You're not there for yourself. Drop your ego at the door. You know, you don't take your ego into somewhere with you. You leave it behind and you come in to be able to work with other people. And I think doing the counselling has helped me a lot in um calming down that little voice inside me that says you don't have anything to prove anymore. You don't have to go on a million miles an hour. You don't have to be the Rottweiler.
00:39:44
Speaker
I don't even have to do another master's degree. you know um What am I going to do with it when i' when I've done my master's degree? you know Where do I want to go with it? Well, I just think it adds to your toolkit. It it gives you other options, other gates, other doors open for you to be able to go on and continue your career again in a different field or even in the same field but in a different way because you've got other skills that you can then
Advice for Emerging Leaders
00:40:10
Speaker
use. Yeah. It's also meaning, i think. You know, finding things that are meaningful to you because I think I saw it in my dad worked up right up until he passed away. He was 75 years old and he did not stop working right up yeah and then he got he got cancer and then he passed away.
00:40:28
Speaker
But he did not stop working until he was hospitalized, right? And I just, and I think, and He wouldn't even work a lot. He would go in, he had his own he had his own business and he would go into the business and he would sit in the office and read the newspaper. But that was meaningful to him, being there and overseeing everything and just being there and pestering people a little bit, I think. But that was meaningful. And I think people let go of that in their later careers or they their
00:40:55
Speaker
touch with what they find meaningful and they think they need to be the same kind of person, you know, and they don't necessarily need to, which is what I love about you. You evolve. You've even done your truck driving lessons, haven't you? Yeah. That was on my personal list. So every year I set a list of personal things that I want to achieve in that 12-month period and then professional things that I want to achieve. in the And that came up one year that I wanted to go out and do a truck driver's license. You're so funny. I just love it. Oh, well, I do want to try this thing. it's like that's how the heart math came about, you know. I went and did one course and I thought this is really good. Laughter yoga, you know. I i took my girlfriend...
00:41:36
Speaker
Susan to laughter yoga class and said, we've got to go to this laughter yoga class. Then we went to an NLP class a few weeks later. You know, we went and did all these things and she used to say, what are you dragging me off to now? You know, it was like, so it's good for you. You'll learn something, you know, you need to go and and do these things. um and And I'm sure that she has benefited from that over the years. But I think, you know, if something interests you and you think you might be interested, go do it. Go give it a go. yeah You know, I mean, what have you got to lose? Yes, you might lose a few hundred dollars here and there because it doesn't pan out. But so what? You take something away from it and then you'll feel like you've got value. You know, that's what I always try to do is to take one thing, two things away. it's like if I go to a networking session, I don't need more than two business cards because if I get more than two business cards, I'm not going to have time to be able to contact those people. So I'm very strategic in relation to the relationships that are built when I'm networking. It aligns either with some personal goal or it aligns with some organisational goal. But I'm also very good then at making sure that I protect my network. You know, because if those people are willing to have a relationship with me, then I should value that.
00:42:52
Speaker
And that doesn't mean putting them on a marketing list for everybody else to send them rubbish. You know, it's about um working with your networks efficiently and effectively and and tendering them in the same way as you would your garden. Yeah.
00:43:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's such good advice. I mean, you and I have even ended up on a watercolour class together. We have, that's right. We had just finished working together and at the end of that were like, let's do a watercolour class. Neither of us have ever done that. And that was actually a really fun experience. was. really funny, you know. And we both got really good at doing watercolours. we got good at it and still do watercolours. I haven't done one for EEGs, but I should over Christmas. Yeah, maybe I'll do something. I still remember painting a pair of jeans. I don't think I've ever got over that. My worst one was that house. I did not like that one. So for you, what advice can you give to emerging leaders out there who are, you know, there's a lot of change in the world. You mentioned AI and love that you're thinking about what's next in the world. A lot of leaders are now in that space. The change is happening faster than it ever did and today is the slowest it will ever be again, right, because that's how fast change is happening.
00:44:02
Speaker
And it doesn't have to be scary. No. So what advice can you give emerging leaders who on the who are facing transformation, who are facing being the unpopular one, who are facing making decisions that you know internally are right but is not going to be accepted by everyone around you? What what tips can you give them?
00:44:24
Speaker
I think you have to back yourself and you have to make sure that you have done your research and that you have spoken to the people that you need to speak to that can support you as you go through that change process. So have all those subject matter experts around you, the people that you can tap into when you need to. but back yourself, understand that you have the skills to be able to do what you need to do um and be prepared to do it and understand that you're going
Emotional Hygiene and Grounding Techniques
00:44:56
Speaker
to be unpopular. And it might mean that you go home, sit in a chair, have a cry in a blob and drink a glass of red wine, but then you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and you get back on the treadmill and you go again um in the direction that you need to But I think you've also along the way got to think about it from the other person's perspective as well. So you make sure that you're taking care along the way to listen to other people where you need to and be prepared to slow the pace of change if you need to. And don't let their voice become your voice. Absolutely. so Stay strong in your voice. Yep. Right. Definitely. That's what backing yourself is all about. It's about being confident that you are the right person to do this job. Yeah.
00:45:38
Speaker
And mistakes. Yeah. are not failures. No. They're just opportunities to learn and make a new decision, right? Definitely. And, you know, and continue your learning, continue your education. Don't ever stop reading things. I read all sorts. You know, some things I think, I don't know why I'm reading this, but then there's other things that I read and I think, oh, wow, I wish I'd read that 30 years ago. You know, that would have changed this situation or I would have dealt with that differently. You know, there's some great stuff out there. Don't ignore it. But also make sure that, you know, your reading list is varied. You need to have the reading stuff that's quick, that makes you laugh. You know, um Graham Norton made me laugh. You know, I listened to his book. I thought that was quite humorous. You know, you've got to have that downtime, which is just about you. It's just about filling your soul with the things that you need. I think about it, you know, like,
00:46:34
Speaker
If you have a number of buckets that are you, that make up you, all of those buckets, if they're full, make you complete. If any one bucket is empty, you need to put into that bucket to make it full again because if you don't, it'll be the one that shouts the loudest. Mm-hmm. So you've got to make sure all your buckets are full all the time. And if you need downtime, take the downtime. Say, I need downtime. I need that break. I need that reflection, particularly when you're doing strategy. You know, strategy, when you're sitting in an organisational mess, trying to deal with the chaos that's all around you, and you're trying to think about what's the strategic direction this organisation could take, It'll be influenced by that chaos.
00:47:18
Speaker
It's not necessarily going to be the right direction that the organisation needs to take. Step away. Go walk around the lake. Go walk around, go on the sand, you know, ground yourself. First thing I do when I get home on a night, shoes off, bare feet on the floor.
00:47:33
Speaker
I constantly walk around my house in the garden everywhere except in the supermarket. I'm not a bogan. not that Australian. I'm not that Australian. um But in my house and in my garden, I'm barefoot.
00:47:45
Speaker
It's rare that you would catch me with a pair of shoes on except for when I'm walking through the door um because it grounds me and it connects me to the planet, to Earth, to, you know, that real – I'm dropping it all anchoring. I'm dropping everything that's on me. I'm just going to be me. I sit under the gum tree with a cup of coffee, with tea, with a bit of music, with a glass of wine,
Steadiness Over Strength in Leadership
00:48:09
Speaker
whatever it is. I just sit there and I just let things filter. I let things play out. And I think, you know, we've all got to do that from time to time as leaders. We're often so busy dealing with everything that is happening around us that we forget to give to ourselves and you have to give to yourself. because otherwise you can't be strong.
00:48:29
Speaker
You can't be there for others and then you won't drive the change that you want to see. Yeah. I mean, my message, my I'm on a mission to change that perception of you need to be strong to be a leader. And for me, you don't, you need to be steady. It's about steadiness is where it's at. It's not about strength because strength, you get tired when you have to be strong all the time and hold bricks up. you're going to feel tired and fatigued and you have to put them down. Whereas if you steady yourself, you can be steady for an indefinite amount of time if you learn how to do that.
00:48:59
Speaker
Just reminds me of that story of that. I don't know saw it on LinkedIn, but ah an exec said he started a new job and the exec whose office was next to the CEO Every time he walked past the office, this man was sitting there with his hands behind his head, looking out the window, but he was the most highest paid exec in the whole office. And when he questioned HR about it, he's like, he's never doing any work. Why is he so well paid? they're like, because that man. is is our strategic advisor and his job is to sit and think.
00:49:29
Speaker
And all he does is sit and think and create strategy and he saves the company billions or created billions of opportunities for that company. But outwardly, people are like, he's just sitting and thinking or just doing nothing, but he's actually doing important work. You can't do that when you're busy.
00:49:45
Speaker
No. One of the nicest things I think that anybody has ever said to me was um when I left CVA. And one of the staff said to me, I'm so sad that you're going because during COVID, you were just a rock.
00:50:01
Speaker
You were just the same. You came in. Steady. You said good morning. You walked up and down the office. You went into your office. We knew you were there. We don't know what you were doing or not doing or whatever, but you were there, right?
00:50:15
Speaker
And it was just about having that presence for the staff to say, I'm here. I'm supporting you. I know you're all here. I could be at home hiding in my house like a lot of other people at that time had to. I didn't. I got in my car and I drove into the office and I sat there with the people who were having to support everybody else out in community. Because it was really important to me that if there was something that happened that they needed support, that it was me that was there.
00:50:46
Speaker
to be able to help them through that. And my exec team then were able to focus on other things that they needed to focus on. And so then we as as we sort of started to transition out, the exec started to come in, I started to go out and we started to to transition that role.
00:51:03
Speaker
But we stayed the same all the way through, just calm, level-headed, didn't get excited, didn't get panicked, still joked with people, talked to people, you know, checked that we're okay, all those sorts of things.
00:51:17
Speaker
It's just what you do um and what you have to do to be there for your people in those kinds of crises. So I think, you know, leadership teaches you a lot. And you have to learn those lessons.
00:51:30
Speaker
um And sometimes, you know, they're hard learned lessons. COVID was a hard time for all of us. But I think just being there and not showing the staff the chaos that was actually happening behind the scenes while we were trying to get enough masks and enough PPE and other things that we we had to do where we had, you know, MPs ringing us saying, there are people here that desperately need some help and services. Can you get somebody out there? where your staff were going down with COVID so you didn't have enough people to be able to support the most vulnerable.
00:52:02
Speaker
It was challenging, you know, trying to juggle all of those things for everybody that worked in the sector. And I have so much respect for those people because of what they went through. But as a leader, you had to be calm. You couldn't show any of that to your staff because that would have just created chaos for them. And you wanted them to turn up for work and you wanted them to go and do the job. And as much as they wanted to do it, there was also a fear factor for them that they were going to be the next ones with COVID. And what did that look like? And we couldn't refuse to go and support somebody who had COVID. So you wanted to try and protect the person that was going into the house of somebody that had COVID. so that when they came out, they didn't have COVID. So it was challenging, but it was the nicest thing i think that has ever been said about my leadership. because it Because even those leaders who pretend to be strong and they think they look calm, people can tell when you're not, even if you're pretending you are.
00:52:59
Speaker
And I think it's a key skill. If you can maintain that level of steadiness and grounding and anchoring, it's that old thing of you as a leader, you're not only the thermometer, you're also the thermostat.
00:53:11
Speaker
So you're the, you put out the temperature that you're also feeling and you can feel the panic. Well, then you need to bring the temperature down. Right. And if you can't do that, you're not being an effective
Reflections and Key Insights
00:53:22
Speaker
leader.
00:53:22
Speaker
And I imagine you've learned that really effectively through all of the changes that you've had to bring in your career. yeah Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's it, you know, When I'm mentoring people, I often say, you know, if it's a girl, I say in your handbag, you have all these tools.
00:53:37
Speaker
You just have to rummage around in there and it's not your lipstick and it's not the car keys. It's all the other tools that are in there. You just have to get out the right tool at the right time. Same for a guy. If you've got a briefcase, it's in your briefcase. You've got all these tools. You just have to find the right one for the situation that you're dealing with. 100%.
00:53:57
Speaker
Well, always a treat to talk to you, Michelle. If anybody wants to connect with you, are you happy for people connect with you? For sure. Where can they connect with you? They can connect with me at michellejay at youthfutures.com.au.
00:54:09
Speaker
Great. And are you on LinkedIn? Can connect with there? am on LinkedIn. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. Don't connect with me on Facebook because I don't use it. You're like me. yeah People keep sending me invites on it and I say, I don't know. Every now and then I go on to see something from my family, but for the most most part, I don't use it. I'm the same. I don't go on. In fact, I've written on there, this is a work profile. I'm never on here. you know like don't Don't connect with me.
00:54:34
Speaker
Well, Michelle, always a a lovely treat. Thank you so much for being here today and taking time. I love talking to you and I really appreciate it. Well, what I got most out of today was that even the most confident and capable leaders will have moments of doubt. But I love Michelle's advice around grounding yourself, anchoring yourself, getting time for you to clear your thinking, clear your mind and allow yourself to hear that second voice inside of you that says, no, this is the right decision. This is the right outcome. And also throwing in a little bit of plan B and a plan C and a plan D. So I hope you enjoyed today's episode. We'll see you next time on the Second Voice podcast. Take care.