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#207 - Helen Scheuerer
260 Plays2 days ago
Best-selling fantasy romance author, Helen Scheuerer is here to chat about her latest novel, moving into hybrid publication and her approach to creating a fantastical universe!
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Transcript
The Gamble of Writing
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question. I love it. Because the writing is sort of everything, right? Like you could've, can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this. So it's kind of, it's kind of a gamble.
Meet Helen Shoyra
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello, and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by a bestselling fantasy author who is publishing novels, both independently and traditionally, calling from all the way across the world in New Zealand. It's Helen Shoyra. Hello.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hi, thank you so much for having me. Thanks so much for coming
Introducing 'Iron and Embers'
00:00:33
Speaker
on. um Let's dive right in with the new book, Iron and Embers, which comes out in the UK on the 6th of February. Tell us a little bit about it.
00:00:44
Speaker
Yeah, so Iron and Embers is the first book in a trilogy called The Ashes of Thesmah and it's actually a spin-off from a previous series called The Legends of Thesmah. That's a quartet and um all four books are out at the moment and it takes the sister of the main character from that series and she's the protagonist in this and it's set five years later.
00:01:06
Speaker
um I think it can be read as independently from the previous series, um but there is a bit of crossover and stuff. So if people did want to read that first series, I
A Glimpse into the Thesmah Universe
00:01:16
Speaker
would read that first. But Iron and Embers is about an assassin turned alchemist with a dark past, and she's sort of forced out of isolation when a mysterious form of alchemy threatens the realm.
00:01:28
Speaker
um and to gain entry into an elite academy and find a cure for that. She's got to survive some deadly trials while navigating political intrigue, magical attacks and most dangerous of all, an explosive attraction to the man tasked with protecting her. and So it's it's a very high stakes fantasy romance um where magic, revenge and forbidden love collide in a world teetering on the edge of chaos made a pitch for you. Okay, amazing. That sounds great. It sounds like it hits all of the, all of the things that you're looking for within the sort of epic fantasy romanticy genre. Like you said, this is the first of an installment of three. So within the Thesmar universe, so there will be seven books in the Thesmar universe once this is finished.
00:02:19
Speaker
They'll actually be eight. So there's actually the original quartet. There's a standalone prequel called Slaying the Shadow Prints. And then there's this new trilogy as well. So yeah, eight all up. Okay, very cool. Was it always when you kind of created the Thezma world, was it always your plan to kind of explore it in through different characters and different journeys?
00:02:41
Speaker
um I think it sort of came about quite naturally. So originally I wrote Blood and Steel which is the first book in the Legends of Thesmah and within that um the main male character references a mentor that he um you know had a bit of a tense relationship with towards the end and and that's all we really hear about it. um And then funnily enough like an opportunity came along that I was asked to be a part of a multi-author series um and so that is when a bunch of authors get together and in in my case it was everybody writes a standalone novel and it just had to fit the theme um mortal enemies to monster lovers um and so I wrote a standalone set in my universe which turned out to be that mentor's prequel story and so we meet a lot of the characters that are in
00:03:35
Speaker
the Legends of Thesmar and the Ashes of Thesmar in that prequel, but it is a standalone and it's the story of the mentor Talami Starling in that. um So it it was kind of like he was always in it, but this like unique sort of ah opportunity dropped in my lap um to then be able to say, oh, I'm going to write a ah standalone about Talami. And then over the course of um writing the four Thesmar books,
00:04:02
Speaker
I could kind of see where I was going to pick up certain characters later on and who had the potential to have their own series or their own standalone. So it wasn't like the intention when I started Blood and Steel to write eight books, but it kind of progressed naturally from there, if that makes sense.
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, no, I get it. So you you're writing this sort of core story for the legends of Thesmar, and as you're going along, there's a sort of side character that pops in every now and again, and you think, there's a lot more to explore here, but but I can't do it right now. I'm going to have to do that somewhere else. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And it is that you mentioned that there was a few characters. ah Are you planning to do more spin-offs within this universe?
The Potential for More Spin-Offs
00:04:42
Speaker
Um, the potential is there. And that's, that's kind of all I'll say at the moment. Cause we're, um, we're only, you know, a couple of weeks away from releasing book one in the new trilogy. So, and we've got books one, two, and three to go. So I don't want to, I don't want to say too much too soon.
Hybrid Publishing Strategy
00:04:59
Speaker
Okay. And are you planning, um, annual releases or are they going to be sooner than that?
00:05:05
Speaker
No. So, actually, um like you mentioned before, that I'm independently published and traditionally published. And ah The Ashes of Thesmah is my first sort of true hybrid release of those two. So, I'm independently publishing in ah the US and Canada. And then Tor Bramble, which is an imprint of Pan Macmillan, are publishing in the UK and Australia, New Zealand, and Commonwealth Territories. And I think they've got some open market territories as well. um And so, as part of this sort of collaboration with Tor Bramble, um they've agreed to match my publication schedule as as I would have put it out put out indie publishing wise. So, I've got Iron and Embers coming out in um February in the UK.
00:05:52
Speaker
and then book two in July and then book three in December. So we're getting the whole trilogy in one year, which is you know quite unusual for ah for traditional publishing. So it's very exciting.
00:06:05
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's very cool. It's so interesting. Yeah, the the hybrid style, which I think is becoming more appealing to to a lot of authors kind of around the world.
Cultural Differences in Publishing
00:06:14
Speaker
It's so interesting that you say you've got, you know, you're releasing at US and then UK it's coming out with tour. Is it exactly, is it the same book that's coming out with both or are there differences?
00:06:36
Speaker
Right.
00:06:44
Speaker
on the covers. like but They're very beautiful. They've done a really wonderful job. um Whereas my indie versions, I can't put foiling. So it's exactly the same cover, but just there'll be some metallic accents on my covers that are just flat print and on tall brambles, it's foiling and embossing and some like fancy little detailing there. And then and the only other um difference is house style, really. So for me, because I'm publishing in the US, I'm using American spelling, American style, um you know, for example, double quotation marks for dialogue, whereas previously when I was um writing Australian, UK spelling and style, they use single quotation marks for um dialogue. And so those are the types of differences. But in terms of story, it's exactly the same.
00:07:36
Speaker
Okay. Okay, cool. So presumably you worked with, and did you work with then editor at Tor to kind of finalize that? So by the time we'd signed the Tor Bramble deal, I think Iron and Embers, I'd already written and had it edited by my editor as an indie and their editor read it I think we had very very minor feedback just tweaking a couple of things and ah a lot of it was so minor it's things like um you guys would say trousers in America they call it pants but pants for you guys is undies so like little little tweaks like that um
00:08:17
Speaker
but But that's kind of it. And then when we moved on to book two, um my editor at tour, she looked at the first draft and we went back and forth a little bit. But it wasn't it wasn't as extensive as I thought it was going to be with a traditional publisher, just because we're in like a different sort of stage. I think if I had of been with them from the very, very beginning, it would have been a lot more developmental feedback, but it was it was much lighter than I expected. But I mean, it's it's going through them from a first draft level to then a proofread as well. So it's still getting like the same sort of points in the production schedule, I think.
00:08:58
Speaker
Okay. That's really interesting. Yeah. It's this kind of hybrid stuff is sort of, um, for a lot of the time, I mean, with publishing lots of things, everyone does things in a different way, but doing the hybrid thing where it's like partially independently and partially traditionally, it's sort of untrodden ground in a lot of ways. Like everyone's kind of figuring out how they want to do it as they're doing it. It's really interesting to hear about that.
00:09:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And everybody's, everybody's experience is different. Like I know a lot of authors who are doing a very similar thing, selling rights in particular territories. And it just depends, like sometimes the author will just go through their entire usual editorial process as an indie author, and then hand over the final manuscript, or sometimes the publisher will take that editorial responsibility on and work with them and cut out the previous production stuff the indie did. So it really depends on, you know, the preference of the publisher and the author and the contractor that they've signed, I guess. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
Partnership with Tor Bramble
00:09:59
Speaker
When it comes to, you know, you were doing very well, um indie publishing your your own novels. What was the kind of nudge that made you want to sign with Tor Bramble?
00:10:12
Speaker
um I think it's a couple of things. um I've been indie publishing for over eight years now, um and I'm i'm a full-time author. i'm the previous but yeah The previous series, Legends of Thesma, is my most successful series by far. um And I've sort of, I guess, with that, reached a point where i I've done everything that I can to get myself into traditional retailers and bricks andmortar stores and It's really, really hard as an indie author to shift print units in that way. um and so What Tor Bramble sort of brought to the table was that
00:10:55
Speaker
they've got retailer relationships, they've got warehousing, they've got distribution in a way that no matter how sort of successful I was, I couldn't quite do that myself. um And also like we mentioned the differences like treatments on the covers and like nice bells and whistles that I couldn't necessarily do myself without doing a full blown special edition and you know,
00:11:18
Speaker
launching through Kickstarter or something like that, for example. um yeah So that was definitely part of it. um And also, being able to keep my US rights, which is my biggest market, and it's where I make a big chunk of my income. I i thought that having having the opportunity to keep that while sort of dipping my toes in the water with traditional publishing without risking my entire livelihood. That really appealed to me. um and I spoke to the team at Tor and they were really enthusiastic. They loved my books. They'd read all of the previous um Legends of Thesmar books.
00:12:02
Speaker
And we talked for a very long time and my agents and I went back and forth like these things, they take, they take a very long time. Um, and we sort of came at it from all different angles and had multiple meetings. And in the end.
00:12:18
Speaker
i just I thought it was ah it was a safe way to see how I felt about traditional publishing because I was very happy being independently published. um you know I make a very nice living off it and I like the creative control as well, um but in it just it sort of appealed to me, I guess, in the way that it offered a way I could level up my career in a way that I wouldn't be able to do just by myself, I think.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah. and And like you said, the perfect way to do it where it's sort of like you're getting ah you're getting both, you know you're having your cake and you're eating it, you're getting to try it whilst also maintaining all the rights and then depublishing it in certain territories. Yeah, exactly. And with this particular deal, I also i had already sold the audio book rights to Dreamscape. And so it's quite rare that you can get a traditional deal that doesn't then include selling your audio rights and so it was it was quite good that you know they wanted the UK ANZ and um I had i'd already been paid for the audio so that was out of the picture um and it was just sort of said to me from my agents that you know this is quite a quite a unique position to be in and it's it's a good opportunity and so we thought we'll well go for it.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, no, definitely. I was talking to Travis Baldtree recently, who also started off um publishing independently and has since moved into traditional publishing. And he was saying one of the big reasons for him going there was that the access to um translation rights and access to getting the book into different territories. Is that something that Tora has spoken to you about potentially reaching beyond like US-UK markets? Funnily enough, I had already started doing that um prior to the tour deal. I think okay once once like the series started gaining traction, the the opportunities start to come to you, um which was something that actually got told to me a couple of years ago. i um I had a coaching session with another very successful author,
00:14:32
Speaker
And I said to her, oh I'm really interested in you know branching out into foreign translations. How do I go about it? like I do have an agent, but you know there's you know not much um not much interest there. And she she just said to focus on the work and getting that current series to to do well. And once that did well, people will start to approach you. And she was right. um And so I was i was lucky that you know Legends of Thesmah did quite well. And I've got a really wonderful agent who managed to get several foreign translation deals before the Tor Bramble um deal went through. And actually, they not they're not part of the foreign translation deals, at least not with my particular contract. So my agents are shopping out and all of my books to foreign markets outside of Tor Bramble. So it's a completely separate thing.
00:15:31
Speaker
Oh, I see. So you had an agent whilst you were independently publishing, but did you, did you and that your agent is Ezra Ellenberg. Yes. um Did you look for an agent so that you could do that, so that you could kind of get into those other territories?
00:15:50
Speaker
No, so i I've had, um like I think what I've realised later on is quite a usual an unusual experience in that um my first series, which was a young adult fantasy series called the Oromir Chronicles, that came, the first book came out in 2017 and that actually did quite well. um And I was approached by an agent back then who must have been watching the charts and sort of keeping track of what was doing well and what was gaining traction. um And so I signed with her in, it must have been
00:16:25
Speaker
just after that release, so maybe early 2018. And she brokered um the audio deals for um the Oremian Chronicles and then the second series Curse of the Siren Queen, both of which were young adult fantasy. um And then as Legends of Thesmars started to come out, I had um a French publisher contact her and we signed the French deal, I think the first half of what then became a bigger French deal.
00:16:52
Speaker
um And then somewhere in there I i changed agents to Ezra and um ever since then he's taken over all the the translations like he's shopping it around and I mean a lot of a lot of the interest has come directly to us because I think the foreign publishers are watching watching the charts looking at what's doing well on social media and what people are talking about and you know, what sort of sparks their interest. So it's it's a combination, but um yeah, Ezra's done a wonderful job getting translations. We've got, I think, French, Italian, German, Ukraine, Czech, Hungary, Russia, and a couple more that ah I've got contracts in my inbox, but not actually put the
00:17:47
Speaker
signing on the dotted line yet. So it's it's done, it's done um really well. And I wouldn't have been able to do that without him because it's very complicated and overwhelming with all the, the legal jargon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's where agents are a ah godsend yeah getting through all that, all that mumbo jumbo. Exactly.
Helen's Publishing Journey
00:18:08
Speaker
And i can' did you say or not, with did Tor approach you or was that, was that a deal that Ezra had gone and found?
00:18:17
Speaker
Um, I think Tor approached Ezra. Um, I mean, I was, I was, uh, I can't even remember when this was. I think I might've either have just published the last book in the legends of Thesmara or it's just about to come out. It was, uh, sometime last, last year, it all kind of blows together. Um, ah but yeah, I think, I think they, they publish, uh, they, sorry, I'll start that again.
00:18:47
Speaker
um They approached Ezra because I was all set to independently publish Ashes of Thesmah and I was actually intending on publishing it quite a bit sooner but then we started the conversation and um we wanted to give it as much time as possible so I pushed it back.
00:19:03
Speaker
Okay, right. Yeah, it it does sound like your, this kind of journey of yours has been, you know, build it and they will come. And you just kind of focused on, like you said, focused on the work, put out the series, which with each series kind of grew a bit more and, and now, yeah, people, people coming out and coming to you for the request is amazing.
00:19:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's really wonderful. Like i'm I'm very lucky that it's happened that way. um I think I was very happy doing my own thing and I just sort of kind of put my head down and and just went along. um I love being my own boss. I love organizing my own team. um And actually, funnily enough, the first series that I did did well and the second series didn't do as well. And so there was like a bit of a diff and um you know in terms of income, in terms of confidence in myself and all of that kind of thing. And then I made the switch to um adult romantic fantasy, fantasy romance. And that was sort of like my big swing of trying to get back in the game. And it um it did quite well. So it it is still up and down like any sort of writer's career, I guess.
00:20:11
Speaker
I mean, yeah, these things are unpredictable. And I don't know if you find this, but for the most part, when it comes to a series, um the subsequent books in a series don't tend to get picked up as much as the initial book. Is that something you found or do you find that you kind of maintain readership across a whole series? um I think my my like in indie publishing, we call it read through my read through is quite is quite high. um And I mean, that can be for a ah range of different reasons, you know, like, for example, for the last little while, I've released quite close together. And so by the time, um say the first book comes out, I've got the second book up for pre order. And that link for that pre order is in the back of that book. So that when they literally finished the end,
00:21:06
Speaker
want to know what happens next, here's the next book and they can pre-order it. And they see that it's, oh, you know, it's only four months away or it's only five months away. And um I think that definitely helps because people are less likely to forget that they've read it or forget that it's coming out. And, you know, the the story and the characters are still fresh in their mind um by the time that it does rather than, you know, if if you wait a couple of years between releases.
00:21:33
Speaker
um So I think that's definitely helped me, but um I think generally book ones are the big splash, but if you continue on to book two, generally I find my readers, if they're continuing to book two, they're continuing the whole series.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. I imagine if you, if you get them into the second one there, that they'll go the the whole way. that's Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that. And, uh, it makes sense as well with the, with the release schedule. Cause I read a lot of fantasy and there's a few series where, you know, me and the rest of the fans have been waiting 10 years for the third one to come out or whatever. So I wonder which one you're talking about. No names, no names.
Desert Island Book Choice
00:22:16
Speaker
um Awesome. ah We're at the point in the episode where I maroon you out in the middle of the ocean and ask you, Helen, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book do you hope that it would be? That is such a hard question.
00:22:32
Speaker
um
00:22:36
Speaker
maybe Maybe Outlander, the first Outlander book. Yeah. it's um It's nice and chunky. so it's almost like a couple books in one um and It's a really incredible blend of history and romance and just found family. like All the stuff I love in fantasy romance, you get it in Outlander. and I just sort of feel like if I was on a desert island like for who knows how long,
00:23:07
Speaker
i could be reading that over and over again and still each time pick up new things because she's so she's just incredible at like the historical detail, the you know the the outfits, the medicinal herbs that somebody would use back then. and like it i mean Maybe it'd even be informative in that way, who knows?
00:23:31
Speaker
help you survive out there. That's a great choice. That's a really good one actually because you get the blend of timelines and like different periods and things. Yeah, cool choice. Have you answered that question on this show?
00:23:46
Speaker
I have answered it. um my I think ah imagine like a lot of people, especially people into reading and and writing, is ah if you asked me next week, it would probably change, but yeah by my go to my go-to answers would either be Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.
00:24:07
Speaker
Okay. Okay. Very good. Very very English. Very, yeah very, easy you know, British light comedy based. Yeah. Well, I mean, you you might be, you might be a bit upset being deserted on a desert island. So you got to keep yourself entertained. Exactly. i Got to be entertained by another English person complaining about mildly inconvenient things in the UK.
00:24:31
Speaker
because that's all it is really. Awesome.
Additional Content on Patreon
00:24:34
Speaker
So ah coming up, I've got some questions about um writing process, creating characters and world building, as well as Helen's experiences with indie publishing ah that will be in the extended episode available on Patreon.
00:24:48
Speaker
um I have a newsletter that I send out twice a month that always includes what's coming up, um where I'm at with things and just being, you know, transparent about where you're at and what people can expect. And I find in my case, anyway, my readers really appreciate that. So I think it all it all sort of comes together as part of the whole package, really.
00:25:13
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. um Great advice all around there on many different levels. And that that brings us to to to the end of
Episode Wrap-Up
00:25:20
Speaker
the episode. Thank you so much, Helen, for coming on the podcast and and telling us all about iron and embers and everything that you've been up to and and your kind of publishing experience. It's been really, really fascinating and interesting chatting with you. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to meet you.
00:25:34
Speaker
Uh, and for anyone wanting to keep up with what Helen is doing, first of all, Iron and Embers out February 6th in the UK, you can go and get that. Um, I think by the time this episode airs, uh, also you can follow Helen on TikTok and Instagram at Helen Shoira or on Facebook at Helen Shoira author, or if you Google her, I'm sure you'll find her website easy enough to support the podcast, like follow and subscribe, join the Patreon for ad free extended episodes and check out my other podcasts, The Chosen Ones and other tropes.
00:26:03
Speaker
Thanks again to Helen and thanks to everyone listening. We will catch you on the next episode.