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Superman: The Last Son of Krypton
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Our frequent DC animation commentator, Stacy Dooks, is back! In this episode, Stacy and Perry are stretching the definition of "movie" by discussing Superman: The Last Son of Krypton, the three-part series premiere of Superman: The Animated Series. We talk the John Byrne influences on the series, the greatness of Clancy Brown and Dana Delany, and a lot more.
Listen to Stacy on The Fanboy Power Hour podcast
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Transcript
Lois, Lex and Superman's Inaction
00:00:14
Speaker
Well, well. An alien in my own backyard. And such a civic-minded one, too. I think he means what he says, Lex. Well, that's just dandy Lois. All I know is your hero did nothing to help me. I'm the one who's out a billion-dollar battle suit. Actually, this could end up a silver lining in your pocket, couldn't it? What's that?
00:00:38
Speaker
Now that the terrorists have your prototype, the Pentagon is undoubtedly going to want you to build a bigger and better version for them. When all is said and done, this could net you a multi-billion dollar windfall. Lois, it almost sounds as if your friend here is suggesting I should be glad my suit was stolen. You're very amusing, Mr. Kent, is it? Yes, I'll remember that.
00:01:05
Speaker
Nice work, Smallville. You're only the second person I've ever seen get under Lex's skin. Who's the first? Me. When I dumped them. Whoa. Ancient history. Anyway, what makes you think Lex might have been an accessory to the theft? I don't think it was a theft. I think he gave it away.
Introduction to Guests and Interests
00:01:26
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and welcoming back another returning guest. This is your fourth time back, I think, Stacy. Yeah, fourth time. Yeah, I feel pretty good. Good. Always glad to be here. Always glad to have you back. Stacy Dukes, by the way, in case didn't make that clear.
00:01:46
Speaker
It's funny having you back on so quickly because almost exactly before you messaged me about coming back on, I had re-listened to the episode that we did on Dark Knight Returns. Yeah, that's a good one. That was a good one. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. So definitely go back and listen to that one if you haven't yet.
00:02:08
Speaker
But today we're gonna be talking about another animated movie. Although before we get into that, one of the things I've been doing lately, especially with returning guests, is kind of asking you guys what kind of thing is really kind of like grabbing your interest right now? It can be geeky related, doesn't have to be though, but what is kind of like, what are you getting kind of interested in now?
00:02:29
Speaker
Um, well, the recent, um, the recent doctor who special, the power of the doctor. I watched that. That was really fun. Jodi, but occurs last, last, uh, bow as the 13th doctor. And, um, they're setting the stage for the, the return of the debut of the next, um, the next fellow to play the character. I believe his name is shooty. Um, I forget what his name is. Bear with me here. I'm, I'm.
00:02:59
Speaker
And I am not always hip to the jive. Shooty Gotten, he's going to be the next one, but the wrinkle is the end of the special. Do you want spoilers? Do you mind? I'm not a Dr. Who guy. Not a Dr. Who guy? Well, they have, Jodie Whittaker have this epic regeneration sequence at the end of the adventure because it's her time to go. And when she finishes the regeneration sequence, it's David Tennant.
00:03:28
Speaker
And something has clearly gone wrong where he, you know, he's like, I know these teeth and then he looks in his outfit, which is kind of the same as his old outfit. He's just like, what? And so that's going to be the thread between Jody Whittaker and Shudigatwa is going to be a couple of the specials featuring David Tennant. So it's an interesting swerve to say the least. So I was pretty fascinated by that. And yeah, it was, it was, it was a fun, fun special, a lot of nostalgia service. If you're a long time Dr. Hoon fan,
00:03:57
Speaker
you know, they're setting up for the, it'll be the 60th anniversary, I think of doctor who come November, 2023. So that's going to be a, that's going to be a pretty big milestone, but like with all things, my fandom
Adult Themes in Andor and Star Wars
00:04:10
Speaker
is cyclical. Like sometimes I'll be really into Star Trek. Sometimes I'll be really into star Wars, you know, the Andor show also really fascinating. That is easily some of the best star Wars I've seen in a while. That's what a lot of people have been saying. Yeah, because it's, um,
00:04:26
Speaker
It's basically Tony Gilroy and Diego Luna, who not only plays Cassian Andor and produces it. They basically, their team has come up with the idea of doing like, okay, this is Star Wars, but it's not, it's the prestige format series. It's more catered to older audiences. This is more for adults. And it's a really interesting exploration of life under a fascist regime, but it's using Star Wars as kind of the sugar pill
00:04:54
Speaker
to kind of bring this in. I mean, you could argue that George Lucas basically gave us all his kids like Fisher Price, you know, anti-fascist kids in the form of the original trilogy. So, but yeah, this has been a really, it's been a really fascinating series. And so yeah, so those things have been kind of on my mind. How about you? Anything grabbing you lately? So I just want to comment a few things on what you said first. Yeah. I've been hearing so much good things about Andor because the,
00:05:20
Speaker
the the star wars i've never been like a big star wars guy right like i enjoyed the original trilogy um but i'm not like i it never kind of grabbed me the way that it grabbed a lot of other people even though i did see it when i was a kid but it was one of those things where i was kind of like yeah it's cool but was never really like hardcore star wars guy um same thing with like uh
00:05:43
Speaker
And so like some of the newer stuff that's been coming out lately, like I love the Mandalorian. I watched like the first episode of Book of Boba Fett and I didn't watch anymore after that. Not because I didn't like it, but it just didn't, again, didn't just didn't grab me. I didn't really need that. I watched Obi-Wan and I like that. So yeah, I've been just kind of holding off on Andor, but that's something I should probably check out now. Cause from what everyone's saying, it's probably definitely like in my kind of wheelhouse. Yeah.
00:06:12
Speaker
It's very much a slow burn, but it's worth the trip as far as I'm concerned. And Dr. Who, that was another thing that I...
00:06:23
Speaker
I had never had that in my childhood. That was never a thing growing up. Every now and
Yakuza Video Games and Busy Schedules
00:06:28
Speaker
then I'd hear someone talk about Dr. Who here and there. I'm like, what is that? And just like nothing else came of it. And then probably when I first came to Japan, actually, I had a friend from Scotland who she loved Dr. Who. So she gave me like the...
00:06:46
Speaker
not quite legally procured seasons of the reboot with, what was that, Eccleston? Eccleston started and then Tenet took over after. Yeah, so I saw the Eccleston stuff and I saw some of the Tenet stuff, not too much of it. But yeah, and it was entertaining enough, but again, just one of the things that never just kind of grabbed me. So those were like the two, Doctor Who especially is like this big blind spot in my fandom.
00:07:13
Speaker
Totally fair. I actually inherited my doctor who fandom from my uncle, who was a big Tom Baker fan, like he would watch the show on the Boston PBS station. When we live back in Nova Scotia, and he was a captain on on oil tankers, so he would take like he would tape
00:07:33
Speaker
would tape a bunch of them when they had those marathons on PBS, like we need your support. And so they would run like Doctor Who marathons of entire serials and back to back to back. And so I kind of watched them and I didn't really understand what was going on, but I knew that there was a cool robot dog on that show. And I was like, I want to see more with the robot dogs. This was around the same time I was watching Battlestar Galactica on VHS. And so I already knew what Daggett was. And I'm like, what is this? And the character of K-9 kind of
00:07:59
Speaker
got me into it. And as I grew older, I would just watch more and more reruns on sin syndication and just kind of got into it. It just kind of became one of those, one of those things I kind of absorbed through a little bit of osmosis. So that was kind of like, that was kind of like me with the bond stuff because my dad was a huge James Bond guy. And so like, and my brother had a
00:08:18
Speaker
at a video store at the time. So he made copies from Laserdisc of like the Connery Bond movies, put them on like one deluxe VHS cassette. So it was just like, I remember watching that damn thing with my dad, like endless times. Like those first three Bond movies especially are like seared into my memory because of that. And that really kind of like, that really kind of started me on Bond. So, and yeah, that was
00:08:41
Speaker
very similar thing with the osmosis stuff. But the thing that I've been kind of into lately, I haven't had a whole lot of time lately just because,
00:08:50
Speaker
I've started a new workout regime. And so I've been going to the gym like three days a week and then combined that with just like work and all this kind of stuff. And I started a new gig with working with a small comic publisher, doing some lettering work for them. So just been, it's been really busy lately. So I haven't had a lot of time, but the time I have had, are you a video game guy at all?
00:09:13
Speaker
A little bit, I mean, I'm not as hardcore as some, but I dip in it now. Yeah, same thing. But have you ever played the Yakuza games? I have heard of them, but I haven't played them. I think they're similar to Grand Theft Auto, right? Kind of in that same vein of like. Yeah, it's this weird, it's this interesting mix between like Grand Theft Auto and like JRPG.
00:09:38
Speaker
set in japan and it's like it's if you ever played the persona games though it's much more similar to those probably like very like very kind of like confined location it's not the the kind not an open world yeah right not not it or it is in a way but not as sprawling as like the gta stuff is um it's not the same as like a lot of the sandbox games but it's um
00:09:59
Speaker
There's a new one out now. So the series in Japanese is called Ryu Ga Gotoku, which translates as like a dragon. And so the the new dad, the original series, which I think was like six or seven games and featuring like that protagonist. And I never played all the way through, but I
00:10:33
Speaker
of the Japanese one. And so I've been playing I've they had it for free as part of the PlayStation Plus subscription a few months back. So I so I got it downloaded. And
00:11:09
Speaker
put them into this kind of bliss, you know, over the top setting. So it's, it's, it's a lot of fun. Sounds interesting. Yeah, it is. It's really interesting. And so I've been playing that, dipping into that in and out over the past like two or three weeks or so. So that's kind of like been my thing since She-Hulk ended because She-Hulk was my last leg. Yeah, the last big kind of streaming thing to follow. And it was
00:11:34
Speaker
Quite interesting. Oh yeah. Yeah yeah I love that. But today we're talking, as usual when we have you on we're talking about a DC animated project, and you had an idea to, instead of talking about
Superman: The Animated Series Overview
00:11:48
Speaker
It's not technically a movie, but in a way it kind of is. It's the first three episodes of Superman the Animated Series, which is a three-parter titled The Last Son of Krypton. And it basically is kind of like a Superman origin story movie.
00:12:05
Speaker
Yes, I will argue that it is a technicality as it was released on a clamshell VHS as a film that you could rent from Blockbuster. We'll allow, we'll allow. Yeah, we'll allow. Counselor, I realize I'm on shaky ground, Your Honor, but please allow me to present this to the court as it is probably in my estimation, the best take on a Superman movie that we've had. Now, don't get me wrong.
00:12:33
Speaker
Superman, the movie, the 1978, Richard Donner, Christopher Reville. I love it to pieces. But if you sat me down in an interrogation room and you put the hot lights on me and you said, Stacy, what is objectively the best Superman movie and you line them all up. I have to say that as much as Superman, the movie in 1978 might be my favorite.
00:12:55
Speaker
I think the best one is this one right here and it's quite good in my estimation. See, that's a good question. I'm not sure what I would pick as the best one if we're having live action and animated stuff altogether. I think I might lean more towards Superman versus the elite or Superman Unbound I thought was really good too.
00:13:20
Speaker
Okay, Unbound I've heard good things about. I've yet to pull the trigger on. So I might have to watch it sometime and then see if I have to reorganize things. I mean, there's also All-Star Superman as well. I mean, well, All-Star Superman kind of exists off in its own thing because it's so good. It's hard. It would be like, you know,
00:13:43
Speaker
That's a very particular kind of Superman. It's not as quite as like, if you're looking for more of a modern day take on Superman, then I would not give you all star Superman. But if, yeah, but if you're, yeah, you're right. That's like, it's a very specific type of Superman. Yeah. If I was, but I think it would probably be a toss up between Superman versus the elite or Superman unbound.
00:14:08
Speaker
So let's go back and let's talk about Superman the Animated Series for a little bit. What's your history with this show? Oh man, like growing up in Nova Scotia, we were watching Batman the Animated Series for the longest time and having a great time with it as of course Batman the Animated Series is one of the greatest of all. Yes. But when we heard that they were doing a Superman show,
00:14:34
Speaker
I immediately stopped editing my tracks because I am a huge Superman nerd. So I was stoked to watch it and I watched it when it was coming out on TV. I believe it was part of that whole brief period of like
00:14:49
Speaker
where like the Warner Brothers shows were on Fox or something for some reason. Like you would see them occasionally with a Fox kids lineup or something similar to that and or kids WB. Kids WB, I remember that. Yeah, with at least that's what it was in my area. It was on kids WB. Yeah, kids WB. Yeah. And so we would see it there. And then eventually they packaged them both into the new Superman Batman adventures. Cause that was around the time of season four. And they did the world's finest movie with the redesigned Batman looks, which was
00:15:18
Speaker
Pretty good. Oh, yeah. It was a little janky. Yeah, those those redesigns were weird because there were some that were like completely on point. Like the Batman design was such a step up. The Bruce Wayne design to such a step up. Like I hated that grumpy brown suit thing. Yeah. Yeah. But when it came to some of the other ones like Robin, I couldn't tell. I didn't understand why they took all the the green out of his costume. I didn't like that. And
00:15:45
Speaker
I also didn't like what they did to Tim Drake. It like, that was just Jason Todd called Tim. And I, Tim Drake's my favorite Robin. So like that always worked for me. And like, yeah, some of the creature, some of the villain designs were just off. Like you had,
00:16:02
Speaker
Penguin was a nice redesign. They brought him back to the more classic look, but like with the Joker, I don't know why they got rid of his red lips. They had the black eyes. They did a nice, they did a nice merger when they brought him in on Justice League though. That was the nicest. That was a nice combination of the creepier elements. The look for season four of Batman the Animated Series was interesting. It was a unique design, but ultimately I think it didn't serve, it made him a little too cartoony.
00:16:29
Speaker
Like the Joker should always have this, he should always appear to be, you know, fanciful, but there should be this under underlying current of Venice that they got back to in justice. Yes, absolutely. But some designs were great. I mean, Scarecrow. Scarecrow was the one that I was like really kind of, cause I like the design, but I don't feel that it suits that character. I feel it's interesting. And I do like it, the pairing with Jeffrey Coombs. So I think they've actually, they did a good job in making him actually
00:16:59
Speaker
intimidating and the Mr. Freeze redesign. The Mr. Freeze one was on point, yeah. Very, very cool. And the designs for the Superman characters are also really good in that
00:17:09
Speaker
They evoke the Fleischer cartoon so well. I mean, they already did that with Batman the Animated Series, but this was where they really had a chance to cut loose and really did some unique redesigns, like both for Superman himself. Some of the stuff still stayed mostly classic. I mean, Jimmy Olsen got a kind of a 90s kid globe. He got the mullet.
00:17:30
Speaker
and they lost a bow tie in the camera. I like what they did with Jimmy. I thought that it made so much more sense. I mean, I wouldn't understand why like this teenage or college age kid who is walking around with the sweater vest and bow tie. Exactly. You couldn't quite do it except in kind of like in Batman, the Brave and the Bold, they do that because every character is supposed to be their idealized silver age self. So you can get away with that.
00:17:55
Speaker
But yeah, the designs were pretty good. The new gods, when they brought in the new gods, holy moly. One thing I will say about the Superman design is I didn't like that they didn't have blue eyes, right? That's such an iconic part of Superman. And I feel like that was a big misstop, especially because it's not like they couldn't do it, because they did it with Bruce Wayne in the season four.
00:18:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's definitely a wrinkle. I'm a bit more of a hardliner. My main thing was like, where's the LOS?
00:18:29
Speaker
Where's the LOS on his cape? There was a reason for that because the animation. Yeah, because it's too difficult to animate the cape with the yellow S. So that's why also more of the modern after Superman returns, like all the movies, Superman returns on because they use CGI capes with the flying sequences and they can't and it's so difficult if you have that yellow S in the back.
00:18:51
Speaker
I know, it's just part of me is just like that design is just so iconic that part of me just misses it. Just a little hard line part of me that just can't quite let it go. But yeah, and the fact that they, Alan Burnett, Paul Dini, Bruce Timm, the whole team, they basically took Batman in the animated series the notes they did that and they didn't necessarily do a complete 180, but they did a nice 90 degree pivot.
00:19:16
Speaker
where a lot of that design and a lot of that, especially with Metropolis, like I particularly enjoy, you know, the Gotham of the animated series is very much inspired by the Anton first designs from the movie where hell has burst from the pavement. But Metropolis is the city of tomorrow and it's like heaven has descended from the clouds. Like it just looks, it's really good. It's bright, it's shiny. It's got all those iconic, like the daily planet globe looks amazing.
00:19:43
Speaker
Like they just put in the work in the designs and the designs of Krypton are unique. And we'll, we'll talk about Krypton in a bit. Cause the first episode is basically Superman's nowhere. Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah, the designs are great. And just the aesthetic of the show, they got the assignment. They understood that if Batman, the animated series is like, you know, some like.
00:20:05
Speaker
crime and, you know, the underworld and, you know, dealing with these costumes, supervillains, supervillains. The Superman one deals with that as well, but it's much more, you know, bright and optimistic and upbeat and really makes for a nice contrast between the two. So yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
Influence of John Byrne on Superman
00:20:24
Speaker
Now, one of the things about this show, and I think one of the big differences between this and Batman, the animated series is
00:20:31
Speaker
Batman felt like it borrowed from a lot more different eras of the comics history, whereas Superman the Animated Series seemed to be heavily, heavily drawing on the John Byrne revamp from the post crisis. What are your thoughts on that revamp on Man of Steel?
00:20:53
Speaker
Uh, well, I liked the revamp on man of steel. I actually was reading Superman comics in 1986 when crisis happened. So I actually read whatever happened to the man of tomorrow. And then I was like, well, this is the last Superman story. Obviously everything's over. Like we're done. And, you know, and then, then when they relaunched with a man of steel, it was, it was a revelation. I mean, you know, the John Byrne.
00:21:18
Speaker
you know, Jerry Ordway, Marv Wolfman, that whole stable, coming together and rebooting the Superman franchise.
00:21:26
Speaker
You know, I think it was a necessary move because I think a lot of barnacles had accumulated along the hull. Granted, a lot of that stuff came back because a lot of people have a lot of affection for things like, you know, the bottle city of candor, super girl, crypto, the super dog, you know, that kind of stuff. But I do think that that initial, like, okay, this is the break. This is what we're going to do. It's just Superman. He's the only survivor of Krypton. He's not as godlike as he was in the silver and bronze age.
00:21:55
Speaker
This is a Superman who can get hurt, who can get injured in the course of his duties. And they established very much that he was not disguised as Clark Kent. Clark was the real person. Kal-El slash Superman was the disguise. And Lex Luthor as the billionaire mogul was a smart play because how many times can Lex Luthor escape prison and then put on that purpling
00:22:23
Speaker
green armor and white super in the street. So they had to do some things. And I quite liked the redesign, the bizarro story in that one is really good. I quite enjoyed it. There are some issues that I have with Man of Steel. I mean, there are some changes that I really love. I love the, like you said, Lex Luthor. I love what they did with making him a businessman. Although if you look at like the early, the eighties and the early nineties Lex, I think they,
00:22:53
Speaker
They brought him too much into kingpin territory, I felt. Like he didn't quite have that intelligence. He didn't. And he also was, you know, a little bit too much of a bastard, right? It was kind of like, you know, I mean, he was just, and there was like no redeeming qualities. When we got into like the president Luther area, which is when I started reading Superman comics regularly, and then probably from influence from Smallville as well with Michael Rosenbaum, I thought they did a good job of,
00:23:19
Speaker
Making giving Luther some sympathetic qualities which really helped his character a lot, but like when I go back and I read like the burn Superman, or the, or the early 90s triangle era like it
00:23:31
Speaker
it is hard to read the Lex stuff just cause he's like so much of a bastard. It's like, there's not one redeeming thing about him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no redeeming qualities in him whatsoever. And I think that also stems from the fact that they decided to break with the previous convention like Clark and Lex having known each other in Smallville. Right, yeah, yeah. So they instead, you know, they broke from that and they broke away from the redeeming elements that I do think works to the detriment of the character.
00:23:56
Speaker
and just kind of made him like an evil corporate mogul. They didn't really play into his being a mad scientist until you started getting into the clone arc where we got Lex Luthor the second and then, you know, somehow he managed to finagle his way out of all that after, you know, after the whole neuron thing, he got his body back, comics. But I do think that, yeah, I think you're onto something there because there's that great moment in the Grant Morrison Howard Porter JLA
00:24:22
Speaker
when it's during, I think it's the injustice for all arc, but there's a moment where Superman says to Lex, goodbye Lex, there's a good man in there somewhere. And Lex is like, you think so, do you? And just like that relationship that they have, I've always felt, there's a great Superman story from the further adventures of Superman, which is a prose anthology and Superman, he's at the end of time,
00:24:47
Speaker
near the end of time. And like, he asks one question of this Oracle, cause he's been on a question. He's just like, well, Lex and I ever be friends again. And the Oracle says one day.
00:24:55
Speaker
And it's just like, that's great. The tragedy of their friendship is one of the things that I think they brought back really well in Mark Waid's Superman Birthright. Yeah, I thought, I felt like Birthright, it didn't touch on it as much as I wish it had. Like there was, yeah, it was, cause they had, and I think part of it just cause they were so hamstrung by what was, cause it was supposed to fit into the existing continuity. So you had this thing where like, yeah, so we're like relaxed pretends like he never knew, he was never in Smallville and he never knew Clark and all that kind of stuff.
00:25:24
Speaker
So that was that was taking things a little bit too, too far, I thought, but I like the idea behind it, though, this idea that they were they were friends before they had this connection and and I wish we could have ideal if I was going to be relaunching Superman, I would be running with that idea. The fact that Clark and Lex know each other were friends.
00:25:45
Speaker
You know and playing with that idea because I think that's that's such an interesting dynamic to explore. Yeah Have you ever read a Joe Casey's Adventures of Superman run? I believe I was dipping in and out of that time. Okay, so I'd recently
00:26:03
Speaker
I'm not sure when it's gonna be coming out, cause I'm not sure what his schedule is compared to what the schedule of this show is, but I had reread it and I was on Anthony Desiado's digging for Kryptonite show. And so I read it for that and we talked about it. And one of the things I really liked about that run was the way Casey depicted Luthor. Cause it was kind of like this, he was like this super intelligent, it was in the president time too, but he also had a lot of sympathetic qualities. And I think Casey was definitely influenced by what was happening on Smallville at the time.
00:26:33
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think that fundamentally Lex is on the cusp of being a genuinely good person, but he can't make the transition because his pride
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah. Messes with him every time. And as far as Clark is concerned, if they're falling out, he never fell out with Lex. Like, Lex just disappeared. And he dearly wants to have his friend back, and he doesn't understand why Lex is doing all this. Like, yeah. It's funny. I started rewatching Smallville recently. And when you're watching, especially the early seasons,
00:27:07
Speaker
I'm just like, you know what? This is basically the series of this really nice guy, Lex Luthor, who comes to this town. He wants to use his money to help everybody. And everybody's a complete and total asshole to him. And it's no wonder he becomes a supervillain.
00:27:23
Speaker
Exactly. Like the boulders just keep getting piled on and piled on and piled on until when he snaps, you totally understand. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm like, I'm rewatching. I'm like, Parks an asshole. Lex is the hero of this show. Exactly. Oh, yeah. Smallville Clark. You want to take him aside and just be like, buddy, are you good? Are you all right?
00:27:48
Speaker
They're getting a little bright burning here. Well, and you know, to take it back to this show, I think one of the things I think this series did really well for the time because there was nothing else about like Lex, like this at the time is they brought back that intellect.
Clancy Brown as Lex Luthor
00:28:04
Speaker
They brought, they also had a lot of charm with him. Like Clancy Brown's Lex Luther is just like, he's so sinister, but he's so charming at the same time.
00:28:16
Speaker
Oh my God, yes. And in this, like, he just, he walks onto that stage and he just, he like holds up his arms to get the audience to give him more applause. And I'm like, yeah, that's Lex Luthor in a nutshell. And of course, like, of course he has the office that has the aquarium with a shark in it. Because of course, because it's Lex Luthor.
00:28:35
Speaker
Because of course he's going to do that. Like he's just that little bit extra. And the fact that his prototype weapon is called the Lexo Scale 1000. I'm like, oh, Lex. Oh, like you can take the mad scientist out of the silver age, but you can't. Although one of the things that I think was a missed opportunity is, you know, I think they could have, they should have taken it a little step further and called it the Lexor and made it the same color scheme.
00:28:59
Speaker
I think that would have been a nice nod. That would have been a nice nod, but I don't think they wanted to tip their hand to that. Yeah, yeah. And I think that the payoff is a little better when we get to Justice League and he actually does build the suit. That's true, yeah. That's a pretty great pop. But yeah, Lexington is like lowest. I mean, David Delaney is lowest lane. Like, I'm just going to say it. I'm coming in with all the hot controversial takes. This is the best lowest. No, absolutely. This is the best lowest. I think so good.
00:29:29
Speaker
Although I think. bitsy tell it gives her a run. Okay fair, fair, fair, but if I like. If we had to run like a.
00:29:44
Speaker
Like neck and neck, it'd be neck and neck. It'd be neck and neck, it'd be neck and neck. I don't know. It'd be anybody's ballgame. Oh yeah, but like, you know, going back to All-Star Superman, when we covered that on the show and I was rewatching it, the entire time I'm rewatching it, and I'm thinking, I'm like, oh wait, no, it wasn't that, it was Master of the Phantasm, right? Because Dana Delaney did the voice of Andrea Beaumont in that. And when I was watching it, I'm just like, that's Lois Lane. This is really weirding me out now.
00:30:11
Speaker
Yeah, and it's weird because when we're gonna get to world's finest, you have to accept this. But when we get to that, we get David Delaney and Kevin Conroy in another romantic entanglement. Yeah. So good, so good. But yeah, Lois is amazing.
00:30:28
Speaker
Oh yeah, and like, one of my favorite moments in the animated series is, and it's not these episodes, but it was the episode when Lana appears and they get to the end of that episode and Lana's like, you know, she tells them, she's like, you deserve Clark, you deserve someone who's nice and caring. Then you've got Lois's voice booming over. He's like, hey, Smallville, get your butt in here.
00:30:51
Speaker
Oh, their relationship is so great. And it develops so well over the course of the series. Again, this is another episode we won't talk about, but there's a whole bit where like, I don't get how you always manage to get these scoops and Clark just crumbs his fingers. Like, well, actually I'm secretly Superman. And I come here just to look out for disasters and then come in and rob you with a byline. It's just the lowest lane without breaking a sweat. It's just like you're a sick man, Kent. And Clark's like, you ask.
00:31:17
Speaker
So great. One thing also, another, an issue I had with the the burn revamp was I like the idea that Clark is the real person and Superman is the disguise. But one of the things I think that got lost in there is they made Clark, they made things too good for Clark.
00:31:35
Speaker
Right? Clark has like, you know, he was, he was a football star. He was, you know, he's like this, he's this ace reporter. He's got, he's got all these women falling all over him. Like he had Lana in high school, was in love with him. You had Lori when he was in university, you had this, this other reporter who had like worked with him in Europe or something like that. Like all these women are like falling all over themselves to be with Clark Kent. And, and he's just like, he's super confident, almost overconfident. And I feel like that,
00:32:05
Speaker
it detracts something when Clark has things to go that good for him. It's a bit like when Peter Parker becomes a billionaire. You're like, this can only end in fire. Right. Which can only end in traffic. Which did. But the whole big time arc is sensational. But talking about Clark, I think the reason that they did that, what we're making Clark, like he's not mild mannered and beset upon like the Reeves Clark.
00:32:35
Speaker
They make him quiet, and they make him investigative like that's what this series I think did a really good job like burn in the burn comics he's just he's just arrogant, and he's, I think he's, he's way too overconfident he's way too brash, and
00:32:51
Speaker
I didn't, I don't like that about Clark Kent. I think Clark Kent should be someone who, you don't notice him, right? He's kind of like, he's always, and that would, that's what makes him a good investigative reporter is the fact that you, you could be, you know, you could be like Stringer Bell and be like, are you taking notes on the criminal conspiracy tearing it apart? And then there's Clark Kent right over in the corner. He's like goes over the trash can picks it up, right? You never realize he's there. That, I think that's a good way. And I think
00:33:19
Speaker
It's a tragedy, we didn't get to see more Brandon Routh. So I think he played Clark kind of like that. He did a really good job. Yeah, he had the balance between them just perfect. And it was at once an homage to Reeves, but very much kind of its own animal.
00:33:38
Speaker
I think that's sadly, I mean. Well, because I think Reeves' Clark went too far in the other direction, where it's like, you know, he's bumbling and he's tripping over himself. And it's like, you can't help but notice that guy. And in both cases, that's that kind of detracts from the purpose of the Clark Kent of Metropolis Clark persona. It's supposed to be.
00:33:58
Speaker
The way I look at it is there are three versions of him, right? There's the real Clark, there's the small bill Clark, the guy who is with Mon Pa, the guy he is when he's with Lois and the boys or boy in the comics. And then there's Superman, and then there's Metropolis Clark. And that's the mild-mannered reporter with the glasses and the slick back hair. And that's, I think, what the burn comics didn't have a good handle on. I think that, yeah, I think that
00:34:28
Speaker
I think that plays into something that maybe was in the background, maybe it's just my read, but the Clark Kent of the burn era, the Superman of the burn era is a guy who has had tremendous power thrust upon him.
00:34:45
Speaker
And it's kind of feeling that out like the first couple years of Superman's career in the post crisis era, you watch him, you know, kind of deal with the fact that, you know, he gets the crap knocked out of him multiple times, like he learns he earns that humility and by the time he joins
00:35:02
Speaker
the Justice League by the time he becomes the Superman of the death of Superman, I think that his character has evolved to an extent. So I think that, and I think that with Superman, the animated series, they wanted a confident Clark Kent, because they didn't want to make it, if you'll pardon the expression, too cartoony. So they kind of took their inspirations from George Reeves.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yeah. Like in terms of the, he looks good in the suit. He's here doing his reporter shtick. And yeah, I think that's kind of the balance they struck. And I think they largely stuck the landing with that. I think they did too. Yeah, with this, because he's not overconfident. He's not too arrogant. He's got a quiet confidence.
00:35:40
Speaker
Yes, he's got black content. Like he's in the background and he's just, but then every now and then he's got those little moments. Like when, you know, Lois goes there and Angela says, what, your paper needs sent to reporters. And then she goes, and then she notices there's Clark. And then she goes over to me and she's like, hey, so, you know, what have you got? And he's like, well, a shared byline, right? And he's got those moments when he just, it just comes out of nowhere. And I think that's a good way to do it.
00:36:07
Speaker
Yeah, the bit where he and we're kind of jumping all over the yard but the bit when he's in the penthouse and he explains to Luthor like Luthor is mad that the Lexo scale got stolen. And Clark points out that this could be a surprising financial windfall for you, you know, they'll they'll they'll want you to build something us military wants to build something even bigger and better.
00:36:27
Speaker
And Lex is like, that was amusing. Kent, is it? I'll remember that. Like, just like, such a great moment. And of course, if you notice, like, the beauty of this series, this three-parter is that it sets up things that pay off all throughout the series. And every time that Luthor meets up with Clark, he always calls him Kent. It's so great. I love the little bits that are kind of peppered through this, that we've got to pay off later, so.
00:36:53
Speaker
One of the other things about the burn reboot that I didn't really like, and I didn't like that they kind of latched on here, was the depowering of Superman.
Power Level Debate in Animated Series
00:37:01
Speaker
I get why they did it, but I prefer Superman who is... I prefer a more powerful Superman, not necessarily one who's, you know, juggling planets or anything like that, but I think he should be...
00:37:18
Speaker
he should be more powerful than the other superheroes. Otherwise, it's hard to kind of like see like, why does he stand out? I think ironically enough, the actual creators of like that era, like, I think, like, I think,
00:37:36
Speaker
lanking on her name, Louise Simonson. Louise Simonson, you know, John Bogdanove, you know, that whole era of Superman, when they were really getting together. They had Professor Hamilton kind of explain Superman's powers prior to the fight with Doomsday, and explain that Superman's body is a giant solar capacitor. But, you know, the more he uses his power,
00:37:58
Speaker
The lower the tank gets and that's what I think you should the series should start with because unfortunately Superman the animated series starts a pattern.
00:38:08
Speaker
that gets picked up in Justice League. And it's defined on TV tropes as the wharf effect, where, you know, wharf on Star Trek, the next generation would jump in and try to deal with the situation and would immediately get his ass handed to him because he's one of the toughest characters on the show. So you've got to be like, so in Justice League, you know, or even in Superman, the animated series, the first big threat knocks Superman for a loop because we have to show, oh shit, this is serious. Because otherwise, you know,
00:38:35
Speaker
Why, why, why are we here like there's no jeopardy. The thing that I think that they could have done and probably should have done was show that Superman initially when he's going at you that first time yes he is absolutely, you could drop a building on him, you could play.
00:38:50
Speaker
you know, fire missiles at him, he'll just, you know, dust it off, no problem. But as the fight goes on, yes, he starts to have those moments where he does get knocked back. So like he does get beaten down or you start to see blood or damage to the costume. Like it just shows that if you keep him going, eventually you can wear him down to where he is in a position where he is more vulnerable.
00:39:14
Speaker
But that's just me from Jameson. But anyway, let's talk about some of the beats of it. So, you know, like you said, the first episode, it's like the first third of this is entirely based, set on Krypton. Now, if we're gonna, we're looking at this as a movie, right? And so looking at it as a movie, I think that's a problem when you've got the first third of it without the main character and it's completely set on Krypton.
00:39:43
Speaker
I would argue that, yeah, I mean, there's certainly a danger. We've seen in Man of Steel that you can get a little lost out in the reeds there. But I do think that the beginning on Krypton is necessary because it does allow us to establish a couple of things. It does allow, you know, for people who are like, well, yeah, I know Superman, but what's this taking of your need? Because we need that because it introduces us to the...
00:40:08
Speaker
father-son inheritance of a shared evil in the form of Corey Burton's Brainiac, which is a magnificent character. And we get that, we get the depictions of Superman's baby Kal-El's life on Krypton. Maybe you could probably shorten it by maybe about five, 10 minutes, like truncated a little bit. But I do think that it serves a purpose, at least for this series, because, you know, for a lot of like,
00:40:33
Speaker
kids coming up in the 90s who maybe didn't read comics. They have no idea who Superman is. They've only ever watched Batman. So this is their ground floor viewing. It might not work in an actual cinematic movie. But yeah, I do like the bits. I like, you know, action scientist Doc Savage-esque Dorell.
00:40:52
Speaker
No, I think this is a good, I like, they did some nice things with Krypton here where that was, again, something else I didn't like about the burn thing was they made Krypton too cold, too alien, and so it feels like, well, why would Clark even want a connection with this place? Exactly.
00:41:09
Speaker
It's a planet you want to blow up. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So this one, they they show it and it's it's a nice place. Right. You know, you know, and they show Clark has a history there. He may not remember it, but he does have a history there. I also think that whole birthing matrix so that he was tech, quote unquote, born on Earth, born in America. So he's an American.
00:41:32
Speaker
I thought that was just like, that undercut the whole refugee aspect of Superman story. Yeah, iffy, yeah. Yeah, so I didn't like that. And I like what they did here. So he's, you know, probably like what, like a year or two years old at this point. And he's running around, because he's walking, he's running around. Although, you know, who knows, maybe babies in Krypton can start walking at six months. Weird, don't know. Yeah. But, and we get to see that, you know, Jor-El and Lara, they're,
00:42:01
Speaker
They have personalities, which they did it in the bird rod. We actually get to have Laura have conversations with Jor-El that lasts longer than like three seconds. So it's really good. But one of the things that is interesting about the Krypton arc is the fact that Jor-El has a plan and it's not a bad plan. He's like, look, we put everybody in the Phantom Zone. We send one person in a spaceship to Earth. We get everybody out of the Phantom Zone.
00:42:31
Speaker
step three profit. Of course, you know, George might not be thinking about the fact that, you know, a planet's worth of Kryptonian suddenly getting powers on earth might not be so great for the human race, but that's a story for Superman adventure. He wasn't actually planning on, he wasn't necessarily planning on taking them all to earth. That was what he planned for Cal. Well, for Cal, yeah, that might be the fallback position, but he was like, we can take them somewhere
00:42:54
Speaker
We can get out and the council is just like, you want us to go in there with our most dangerous criminals? You're out of your mind. And of course they all worship, they all worship the one figurehead topical.
00:43:06
Speaker
that can provide them with all the answers in the form of Brainiac. And of course Brainiac, it turns out, who knew that combining Brain and Brainiac might lead to a computer program that might not be beneficial. So great, yeah. I do love that they tied Brainiac to Krypton in this. Absolutely. I don't like the whole
00:43:27
Speaker
you know, telepathic brainiac thing they did in the early 90s. But I love this idea of brainiac as this like rogue AI who's trying to, you know, gather intelligence on all available worlds and all that and tying it into Superman's origin and Krypton. I thought that was a really nice move. It was a really interesting way to do that. I'm not sure how I feel about him
00:43:52
Speaker
intentionally misleading the council. Because I think then we're starting to get into territory of, not necessarily he's not directly responsible for Krypton's explosion, but he's helping it along. And I prefer it to be just more. Well, the thing about Brainiac in that moment. Brainiac was actually wrong in that moment. Like maybe he was wrong about it himself.
00:44:17
Speaker
The thing about Brainiac's reasoning in that moment is that he is aware of Krypton's plight, but he knows that it's too late. Like, there's no point. Like, and if he were to try to help the Kryptonian people, they would have him waste time when he needs to get off the planet in his estimation. Like, he is the sum repository of all Kryptonian knowledge. And so he's just like, look,
00:44:41
Speaker
Sorry, all, but I'm out. I'll see you later. No, I totally understand his motivations. I'm just saying from from my perspective, just storytelling point, I don't like the idea that the supervillain is somehow helping along. Yeah, I prefer it to be just like completely unconnected from I always I always hate those stories when they go back to Krypton. They're like,
00:45:03
Speaker
you know, this is, you know, this was the villain who was responsible for it. I never liked that kind of stuff. Yeah, Krypton does not need a murderer. Right. Krypton is just a natural tragedy. It's just something that happened. Now, could you argue that you could maybe reconfigure it a little bit and just be like, well,
00:45:19
Speaker
Brainiac was doing his biannual upload into the satellite network, and then saw that Krypton was exploding, and it was just like, oh, nothing I can do. It just left. I would just put it at, like, I would say that, you know, just my, if I was rewriting this, I would say that Brainiac
00:45:35
Speaker
sincerely believed that it was shifting the orbit and all that and it wasn't actually gonna lead to the destruction. And that Brainiac actually wrong. So I think that also enhances Jor-El's character too. The fact that he was smarter than the machine. And that also gives Brainiac a reason to hate Kal-El too. Cause it's like this whole thing of like, you know what? The only person who ever outsmarted me was your father.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. The one who got a one up on me. Yeah. Right. And I think that, that also seems like brainiac, a kind of personal motivation. I think that would be a, that was, that's how I would do it anyway. Oh yeah. I mean, there's, there's, there's a case you could argue for that. Sure. Uh, yeah, definitely. And the whole escape from Krypton is, is a pretty powerful scene. Like Shirley Walker's music as they launched baby Kal-El into space and the planet just blows up and, and you know,
00:46:27
Speaker
There's that great line from Tony J playing Sev M. I think that's his name, but, you know, the fact that soldiers have like corralled him because they thought he was Jor-El escaping in a hovercraft. And so one of the soldiers is like, what is this, another, got another one? And then Sev M is just like, no, the last one. And then the planet just explodes.
00:46:48
Speaker
It's one of those moments where you realize that, yeah, like the episode goes to show that Krypton was a nice place. There were good people there, and they were all destroyed. Because you just watch as the planet just turns into this huge fireball of expanding green flame, and then there's that great image of like the rocket moving through the cloud and then bursting free, and then all these kryptonite rocks, like Superman is surrounded with death.
00:47:11
Speaker
And then escapes into hyperspace. It's a great sequence. And I like the fact that the rocket doesn't crash. It actually just lands. Because of course they wouldn't strap their baby into a rocket and just hope for the best. They'd have some kind of automated navigation system. It's like, okay, this is a good spot to touch down. We're just going to land. Nice and gentle. Like, yeah. This is such a great sequence. You mentioned the theme and I want to talk about the theme because I thought
00:47:37
Speaker
It was interesting how Batman the Animated Series used the Danny Elfman theme from the movie. And I never realized it before, but then last night it
Theme Music and Design Comparisons
00:47:48
Speaker
just hit me. I'm like, wait, why didn't they do the John Williams theme for this series that is the opening?
00:47:55
Speaker
I think that's one of those things where like Shirley Walker had originally composed the theme for Batman the Animated Series. It's actually the theme for Mask of the Phantasm. Like there's a shorter version that was originally on the soundtrack album that was supposed to be the one that would run at the top of the show. I think with this one, Walker was given the chance to just kind of just go for it. This was her thing. And I think Elfman at the time
00:48:21
Speaker
He was of the, I think, no, no, this is a tale told out of school. So take it with a grain of salt the size of your desk. But apparently he was under the impression that Batman the Animated Series was going to be a primetime animated series. And so he would be looking at a lot of residuals for the, you know, for doing the opening theme. So he composed it and put it together for that. And then of course it went to daytime TV and that's where history happened. Oh, it was a, I thought it was the same theme from the, I thought it was the exact same theme from the Batman 99.
00:48:51
Speaker
No, it's actually kind of a riff on it. Like the actual Batman the Animated Series, he composed an individual piece of music for it. That's kind of thematically similar, but just different enough to like, to, you know, get like 90, 60 to 90 second blurb for the recording. Right, right. Okay, that's interesting. I never knew that. I always thought it was the exact same thing. Again, don't take me as gospel. Right. But yeah, so I always thought that, and you know, it,
00:49:18
Speaker
But the Walker theme though is so evocative of the Williams theme. It's great. Because it does the same thing that John Williams does. It says Superman in the title. Well, even it has that, it even has that, like, you know, in the Williams theme, they've got that, right. But they also have that when it goes slow and it has like, it has the same thing here, the same exact thing. And it's like timed almost exactly. It's just different notes, but it's the exact same structure basically.
00:49:47
Speaker
Yeah. Cause she probably Walker was probably like, well, everybody like John Williams already did it as good as it can. So let me just do a riff on, on that theme, but she's designed that. Like when she did the justice league theme, she gave every hero their own distinct theme. There's a, there's a lovely video someone did when unfortunately she passed away where they incorporated all the themes that she'd done for all the heroes. Each one, like the flash gets one. Wonder Woman gets one green Lantern. It's all great. Like she.
00:50:15
Speaker
she really composed it to capture the essence of each character. And with Superman, the animated series, it's big, it's bombastic, it's confident in a way that the Batman, the animated series theme is more dark and kind of brooding. Her version on it, yes, just so good. Yeah. See, Annie, I think she touched on something, but I think everyone who makes a new Superman theme needs to keep in mind is that it needs to have that, like the,
00:50:42
Speaker
I think it was, who did, Zimmer did the score for Man of Steel. Decent enough music, but it doesn't have that bombastic thing. I'm like, if you're making a Superman theme, you don't have any horns in it. I think that's a problem. Exactly. Like, don't get me wrong. I like the drums. I like the, I like the riff, but Superman, when he shows up, that's when it's like, oh yeah, we're on your show now. Cause here you go. Like that was the one moment in Justice League where I popped.
00:51:12
Speaker
And when he showed up in the in the reading cut of Justice League in the whole year and the score kicked in, I popped like a WWE fan. I was ready. Let's go.
00:51:24
Speaker
The treatment of Superman and the Whedon cut, that is the only reason why I hold it above the Snyder cut. It's just- It edges out a little. Because Whedon, much like with Captain America, he gets Superman. He understands him. I'm like, no disrespect intended to Zack Snyder. He's there to play and he did his else worlds and there's no beef, there's no hatchets, but an objectivist can't really understand an altruist. Right, yeah, exactly. I mean, he tries, but it's just,
00:51:52
Speaker
Not quite there. That's just me though. Well, no, this is a different discussion, but Adam and I talked about this when we talked about Man of Steel where it's like, there's so much in there. It's like, you're so close, but then you get into like the, I let my father die part of it. And then it's like, okay, now you're losing the plot. Objection, your honor, objection. There's absolutely, there's a dozen ways you could save him, but that's not worth it.
00:52:20
Speaker
We meet the Kents here and they are absolutely adorable. Yeah. Well, another thing too. One of the things I liked about the burn revamp is that they show that Superman's Clark's abilities are developing naturally as he grows up. I think they kind of rushed that a little bit here. And I know it's probably because of the time constraints, but it's just like one day all of a sudden, boom, he can do all these things out of nowhere. And I think I would have liked a little bit more
00:52:46
Speaker
some sort of reference to the fact that there had been some buildup to this stuff before that. Yeah, like in the actual comics, you do see that at one point, like Clark is chasing a puppy out into the cornfield and Jonathan accidentally hits him with the combine thresher and it's just like, oh God, Clark, and there he is just fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. His clothes are a little rumpled, but he's okay. And, you know, like, you know, there's another bit where like, hey, your purse is in the other room, huh?
00:53:14
Speaker
And it's just like, well, how did you know that? Cause he looked through the wall. And like, you start to see the powers develop gradually. And I think that also with Man of Steel, they kind of jumped the gun on that too, because all the super senses just hit Clark at once. I think it was pretty good. Cause they'd done the, yeah, I think maybe they did overwhelmed it too much at one point, but I did like the way they kind of rolled those out a little bit. Yes. Yes. I mean, I do think that I developed gradually. Smolville did a great job of that, right? They had the ability.
00:53:43
Speaker
they had the benefit of 22 episode to cease it so you could do it. But still like that whole idea of like, okay, so he's in high school now, he can run really fast, he's pretty strong. I think it would have worked better if you'd had some sort of hint of this stuff already being there instead of all of them just suddenly developing in one day. Yeah, yeah. If it were me and if I were redoing the, if I were redoing Superman, the animated series for a new generation,
00:54:09
Speaker
I would get us to the point where he is in the Grant Morrison action comics run with Rags Morales, where he starts off able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. He runs really fast. He's next to indestructible, but he's not quite there yet. And he hasn't figured out that he can actually fly. Have you read Superman Smashes the Clan?
00:54:32
Speaker
They did a really good thing in that too, where they had the golden age Superman, where he was less powerful. And then they had this, and it was part of his character arc. Whereas as he accepts more about his lineage and all that, his powers develop more. I really liked how they did that there.
00:54:47
Speaker
Yeah, and there's a bit where he runs on the telephone wires. That's how he gets across Metropolis so fast. I was like, that is genius. That is just genius. Like, oh, man, a good hero, like, just knocked it out of the park with that blue yang. Such a good one. Got it. Brilliant story. Yeah. Man, you talk about an animated adaptation that you need. I know. I was just about to say the exact same thing. We need an adaptation of that we need. Just that animation style. Oh, my god. Also, Superman up in the sky.
00:55:16
Speaker
that uh tom king did that one we definitely yeah yeah i'll be a good one yeah me and king sometimes we're not always on the same page but that one i'm like all right that'll do king um
00:55:31
Speaker
Although one of the things I did like about what they did here is, and my problem with the burn stuff is, you know, Superman's kind of abusing his powers in high school, right? He's, he's becoming, and I know later on he says, well, you know, I, my power's in development. I'm like, come on, really, Clark? You're still, you're still, you're still willing, you're still winning all the trophies and your powers never developed before you think, come on.
00:55:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. But I do think that that bit serves the purpose because Jonathan has to take him aside and go, look, man, you are not from around here. And these abilities that you have, they're great. But you're using them to make people feel down, like you're using it to put yourself forward. And that that version of Clark needs to learn that first lesson, like when he encounters the rocket and more importantly, the kryptonite embedded in the rocket.
00:56:23
Speaker
that's where he starts to understand that he's got some limits, like even subconsciously. And there's that great bit that pays off later with John Corbin, AKA Mattel, who's also in this played by the incredible Malcolm McDowell, who crushes it like such smart, like love to see him. And again, as I was talking about earlier, the seeds that are paid off later, because when Corbin comes back and undergoes his metamorphosis, he becomes one of the more
00:56:50
Speaker
tenacious villains on the show. He just wants to kill Superman because Superman, in his eyes, took everything away from him, him and Luthor. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think this is my favorite depiction of Brainiac and my favorite depiction of Metallo. This this show did
00:57:07
Speaker
such a good job of, first off, establishing those characters very early on, tying them to different aspects of Superman's origin story, Brainiac with Krypton, Corbin with Superman's first big adventure in Metropolis, and then bringing them back later. I thought that was brilliantly done the way they'd work them over. Yeah. And the genius of it is Corbin's origin makes him a threat to both Superman and Lex. Yes. And actually gives them a common enemy that they have to team up and defeat.
00:57:37
Speaker
because, you know, Corbin is just such a relentless machine literally at this point.
00:57:42
Speaker
Yeah. And in this one where he gets the Exos Lexus go and is just like wrecking shot. It's a nice forerunner for what will eventually happen because he is the man in the machine. Which we also saw in the Morrison action comics too. Absolutely. Yeah. That was a great, that was a great variation on it. So yeah, this is, this is just such a, oh man, this three-parter holds together real well. I watched it before. Yeah. It's, it's, it does a really good job of
00:58:08
Speaker
setting the scene and everything. Like most of the stuff I have with it are minor cripples here and there. Like I would shorten the Krypton sequence and I would probably divide up the Krypton and Smallville sequence. Instead of having it all Krypton, all Smallville, all Metropolis, I would have it
00:58:27
Speaker
I would have jumbled it up a little bit more and had like, I'd open it up like that when they're metropolis and they're interviewing all the people and about like this flying man and all that, that's actually how I would open the episode, the movie, right? And I would flashback to these other things. Absolutely. Like we get to know Clark and at certain stages we flashback a little further and a little further.
00:58:52
Speaker
And then, you know, maybe he's revisiting Mon Pod in the, it goes into the barn and we get the flashback.
00:58:59
Speaker
to the shift. And we get that moment because that was an interesting thing where Lara puts away the little holographic interface that gives Clark a chance to meet his biological parents, which is just so touching because Clark's heart is absolutely broken. Because up until this point, he thought he was adopted, but he just thought he was a normal kid. And then he finds out, oh, not only are you not human, but you are the last member of your species.
00:59:28
Speaker
And all of that just gets dropped on Clark's shoulders like a ton of bricks. Like you understand why he shatters that beam post because he can't like, he can't deal with it. And his parents want to support him, but they can't reach him in that moment. It takes the discovery of his flight to kind of make him come to terms with the fact that his heritage isn't necessarily all of that. So. Another thing that I really liked about the Smallville sequence was they established that Clark is very intelligent.
00:59:56
Speaker
Right from the start, they're like, you know, it's like, oh, another A for the boy genius. I'm like, I love that because I think so often Clark's intelligence is undermined.
01:00:06
Speaker
Yeah, everybody just sees him as the flying brick. Right, exactly. And the fact that, you know, he's a really smart guy and I'm glad that they didn't shy away from that. They just went right into it right away. I like that part of it too, because that's something that's so often overlooked. Yeah, he's been that way. I think even Smallville made that mistake. I think they tried to play him up a little bit too much as just more of a
01:00:28
Speaker
Not necessarily a jockey type, but he wasn't, like Chloe was the brains of that show, right? And I think, which, you know, and the whole Alison Mack thing aside thing, I hate that character. I've always hated that character. Yeah, not one of my favorites. Yeah.
01:00:46
Speaker
the genius and intellect and Hercules and strength has been with him since the 1930s. And there's that wonderful bit in Superman Batman where it's like Batman asks Clark, like, how did you know to come here? And it's like, it's called investigative journalism.
01:01:00
Speaker
which I always liked, like, Superman is not quite the genius that his father was, but I do think that he takes mostly after his mother, who was a test pilot, like, she's quick-witted, like, he can put things together quickly and solve problems, like, so that's one of the reasons that Superman always has, like, in the comics, there's always an inventive use of his powers, like, I'll reflect my heat vision off this and hit that, and then, you know,
01:01:21
Speaker
do that kind
Superman's Skills and Intelligence
01:01:22
Speaker
of stuff. You know, Superman thinks on his feet and everybody just tends to think of him as just this brick wall that just knocks through things and knocks things down. And I'm not saying that's not a fun time. I enjoy watching Superman beat up giant robots and, you know, kryptonite vision to gorillas as much as the next guy. But, you know, he's also a clever opponent and he's pretty clever in this one too. Like he gets some moments dealing with these bad guys, which are pretty clever uses of his power. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
01:01:50
Speaker
Although I think some of the investigative side of things, it felt like that side of thing didn't quite work well, like he sees the, the Kasny and flag in the photo Jimmy shows him. And he just figures out okay so Lois must be there now so I'm gonna go as Superman. I mean I thought that was kind of a leap in logic, I think there would have
01:02:11
Speaker
I think I would have liked a little bit more investigative actions there. Exactly, yeah, but we've only got a limited time. We've only got a limited time, yeah. But yeah, I get it. Like, I would love, and one of the things that, you know, one of my favorite episodes that features like Clark as the investigative reporter is the episode further down the line, the late Mr. Kent. Yes, I was thinking of the exact same thing. Which is a great episode where
01:02:34
Speaker
In these narrations, he's like, I wanted the witness clerk. I wanted the witness clerk. So he like drives in a car and he goes to investigate the guy on death row. And then of course, when the car gets blown up, he's in a situation, but he is that investigative journalist who does, he's within the cusp of getting this guy off of death row. And that's when the corrupt dude steps in and tries to kill him. Like he is a decorated
01:02:57
Speaker
investigative journalist and also a published novelist. So yeah, he's a guy who has there's there's a lot going on up there. It's not, you know, yeah, that's one of the that's one of the things I love about that. I think that might be my favorite episode because it's not my favorite. It's definitely up there. But it's so memorable because and one of the things I like about it is that it it shows that journalism is not just
01:03:21
Speaker
this thing Clark does as part of his mask or to keep his ear to the ground, right? It's something he actually likes doing. It's his actual calling. And I, and just like the whole fact about like, and I love the aspect of that this series touches on the fact that he had traveled the world, being like, that's my, if I was doing a Superman reboot, like what I would do is I would definitely establish Clark as a conflict journalist, traveling around the world, being in all these different hotspots. And, cause I think,
01:03:50
Speaker
That's one of the things I think Man of Steel missed the boat on, where they had him traveling the world, which I liked that, but they didn't have him doing the journalism stuff, right? It was just kind of like, it's just at the end of the movie, he's like, well, I need a job where I can keep my ear to the ground. And that's Silver Age Superman. You don't need that in the modern day. No, not when everybody has a cell phone. Exactly. You got the world in your back pocket. Right. So it has to be, if you're going to have Clark as a journalist, it has to be something he actually loves doing. It's something he has to be called towards, I think.
01:04:20
Speaker
Yeah, and during that period where he's wandering, like he is a conflict journalist and weirdly enough, all those conflicts suddenly get derailed for some reason. Like there's a series of weird accidents that happen that, you know, slow things down for me, oppressive force. Birthright, right? They handle that brilliantly. Absolutely. Having him, you know, travel the world and realize that, you know, maybe I want to be vegan because I see everything has a life force around it. That's really, you know, uncomfortable for me.
01:04:49
Speaker
Very interesting stuff in that series. And this one, like, I just appreciate that Clark manages to balance both the super heroics, like Pa says it best, like Pa Kent says it best. Like, you know, Clark Kent is there to help out, but Superman shows up every once in a while and he can take care of some things. You know, you like to juxtapose the two lives. I was like the note about, you know, Martha saying, I don't want people thinking you're like that nut in Gotham.
01:05:15
Speaker
It's, that's delightful. That was one, when I first watched it, that made me bark out laughing. Like, it's, it's just such a good little inter, you know. And it establishes that, yes, Superman and Batman share the universe. Right. Well, it was funny that it was happening at this time because at this time they were on different networks. Absolutely. There was no possibility of a crossover back then. So it was, it was nice that even back then they were thinking, well, maybe if we just plant a little seed here, it might have something later on. And then they would, they would,
01:05:42
Speaker
One of the arcs of the show is eventually introducing people that will show up later in Justice League, Green Lantern, we got Aquaman, we got The Flash, just really, really fun stuff. And in this episode, these episodes, so many guns are hung on the wall in advance of what we're eventually going to get. And I think that that's super great.
01:06:02
Speaker
Yeah, just so good. This show is, I can't stress it enough. It's so good. Well, the last thing I wanted to talk about is Tim Daly, his performances. So like, I love his Superman. I think one of the issues I have is I'm not noticing a whole lot of differentiation between the way he voices Superman and the way he voices Clark. Yeah, you would think that, you know, the disguise may fool people, but sure,
01:06:33
Speaker
Lois Lane is not so thick as to recognize the difference in voices. So I think George Newburn, I think he did pretty well with the differentiation. I think his Clark had a little more of a higher register when he played the character. But I can't recall his Clark, so I can't remember. His Clark is a blink and you miss. His Clark isn't largely involved in the proceedings. I think my main memories of that are when they're on the run.
01:07:03
Speaker
during the Thanagarian invasion. So there's some bits with him disguised as Clark. But I think that, yeah, with Tim Daly, yeah, I think the portrayal, I think it's largely just a decision that they made where it's like, well, you know, George Reeves didn't have to differentiate his voice when he was Clark Kenton Superman. So I guess they were kind of trying to play to that. And I get it. I mean, you know, they couldn't really have him be too, you know, too,
01:07:32
Speaker
you know, hire a register or just, you know, clumsy Clark and that sort of thing. They wanted to convey a different Clark for a different time. Yeah. But yeah, I think they could have done something more. Like, especially when you look at what Conroy did with Batman and Bruce Wayne and how he differentiated the two.
01:07:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think that was just a it was either just a decision from the producers or maybe just a conscious decision on Daley's part. But, you know, again, he his portrayal of the characters is just that the disguise is just mainly in the service of just like, let me help people. Let me do my investigative journalism. And, you know, if people figure it out, I feel like a lot of actors don't.
01:08:13
Speaker
put the same emphasis on that difference between Clark and Superman that they would put on the difference between like Batman and Bruce Wayne, because you see this happening. It's not just daily. It happens with a lot of actors like, you know, Dean Kane didn't really differentiate. Well, Dean Kane was basically cardboard as Superman anyway. So, but, you know, but even like outside of Brandon Routh, like even, you know, Henry Cavill and Tyler Oakland, you know, I love both of them.
01:08:40
Speaker
We've got short change, the bad script, but even still, and like, Oakland as well, they don't do much differentiation between Superman and Clark. I think with Oakland's Clark, Oakland's Clark is just very enthusiastic and very bright, whereas Superman tends to be a little more grounded, a little more calm, a little more sedate. I think that, if I had to guess, I think that
01:09:05
Speaker
you know, Clark really likes being Metropolis Clark, cause then he can just really lean into his inner goober and just be, it's just absolutely, you know. That is something I love about Tyler Oakland's Clark. He is such a dorky dad. He is such a dork dad and he loves every second of it. Like he loves being the dad with the dad jokes and like, kiss me on the chef. Like he would have that, he would have that barbecue apron ready to go. Like he is,
01:09:33
Speaker
His Superman, his Clark Kent, like his Clark, for lack of, he loves being human. Like he loves, he loves his life with his wife and kids. Like he's very into that, he's very enthusiastic. In a way that makes his Clark Kent into the mild mannered, you know, clumsy doofus that we all know and love. With the daily portrayal, yeah, it's a bit of a different animal, but I do appreciate it.
01:10:01
Speaker
It's funny, now that I'm, as I'm getting older and there are all these different, I'm finding there are different aspects of different performances that I like in different contexts of Superman. Like Christopher Reeve, I think works great as like the Superman before he has any other kind of connections, like with Lois or anything like that. Like he's, when he first comes to Metropolis and all that and all that. And I look at someone like Oakland and I'm like, okay, this is the,
01:10:30
Speaker
Rebirth era Superman, right? When he's married to Lois, he's got the kids. I can't imagine Christopher Reeves in that role, as well as I can imagine Tyler Hoechler. Yeah, yeah. His Superman has, for lack of a better term, big dad energy. His Superman is great. And the beauty, like what you said, you really kind of captured lightning in the bottle there. It's very much Superman is like this character that's very much like a diamond, like you catch the light in certain ways, that all the interpretations
01:11:00
Speaker
kind of build and level on each other in such a way that makes it really, makes the character really fascinating after like 80 years. Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Anything else you want to mention about Last Son of Krypton? Last Son of Krypton, like it is a real favorite of mine. I rewatched it before we recorded. And I have to say that, yeah, as both a self-contained sort of its own experience and as the beginning of the Superman, the animated series proper,
01:11:29
Speaker
I really think it's great. And I also wanted to point out that this series came out in 1996, I believe. Something
Brainiac and Toy Man Discussions
01:11:38
Speaker
like that, yeah. Something like that. It got here way before Iron Man and offered us our first post-credit bump in a superhero show. Yeah, that's right. Which brings it when Brainiac makes his debut in the flesh, as it were, with those poor aliens. Like, you're just like, oh, boy.
01:11:56
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I've almost forgotten the midst of all this swashbuckling super adventure. This is an Alan Burnett Bruce Tim Poldini joint. You might want to buckle up because here comes some stuff. And it starts to build from there. The next episode is a little piece of home, which introduces... No, and that next episode is the Toy Man. And then the little piece of home is the one after that. Little piece of the little home is the one after that. Oh, man, we didn't even talk about the Toy Man. Like, you talk about redesigns? Yeah, yeah. That one is genuinely creepy. And I think that one...
01:12:25
Speaker
Well, that was also such a, because especially when you were looking at what Toyman was being done with at the comics at the time, because that was when he was in like, that was when he was in child murder mode. And then they established that like Jeff Johns had to come in and go, no, that was an Android that was specifically malfunctioning. Here's the real Toyman.
01:12:44
Speaker
We're all cool, we're all cool. But yeah, the design and the way he speaks and the storybook and all that. I think that is the creepiest toy map, right? That is the creepiest toy map. Why hasn't that one made like the jump to like, I mean, I know like- There was a, cause like he, when Jeff Johns had done one year later, I think it was, there was like a toy map, but it later was again, an Android or something like that. Comics everybody. Yeah, yeah.
01:13:13
Speaker
comics and comics shows. So yeah,
Characters Transitioning from Animation to Comics
01:13:16
Speaker
but really great redesign and most of the villains. Yeah. And also like never really got a chance to touch on it. Cause she's not involved in this episode, but Livewire is also the second character to make the move from the animated series to the comics page. So, you know, both of these series had their impacts in various ways. Well, they also had, yeah. And you know, you had Harley Quinn and then you had Livewire. You also had Mercy.
01:13:41
Speaker
Mercy Graves, yeah, Mercy Graves showed up. Basically, you're updating the whole idea of...
01:13:48
Speaker
Lex Luthor having like a gal Friday or like a right-hand man. But instead of Miss Teshmacher and Otis who are, you know, bumbling comic relief, you've got this cool, confident, you know, mad-ass who can break your fucking arm. Exactly, can hold her own. Yeah. And in the comics was an Amazon for some reason. Yeah, it was her and her sister. I can't remember her name. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mercy and Otis.
01:14:15
Speaker
hope or something like that. Great stuff, great
Series Recommendation and Structure
01:14:19
Speaker
stuff. I mean, this series, if anyone hasn't watched it, and our whistle-stop tour of it kind of jumped all over the yard, but if you want to watch it, I would highly recommend it. It kind of got lost in the shadow of its predecessor and also its successor when Justice League rolled around.
01:14:37
Speaker
but it's so good and it ends on such an interesting note in that the stuff we see at the beginning of this episode was like, yeah, big guy, you're the best, go for it. And then when Darkseid brings it all crumbling down around him, like it's so good. The arc of those four seasons, just amazing stuff. I would recommend it most highly to anyone. If you haven't had a chance to watch it, seek it out post-haste. Was it three seasons?
01:15:02
Speaker
Oh, I think it was three seasons. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Yeah, it's three seasons. I'm sorry. Justice League was four seasons, I think. Justice League was four seasons, I think. Justice League was four seasons. Justice League was four seasons. Justice League was four seasons. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited. Justice League was unlimited.
01:15:26
Speaker
Pretty much, yeah. The first season was like, this is for syndication. It's like the real Ghostbusters. The first season is like 60 episodes. And you're like, whoa, let's all take a breather here, but really great stuff in this. But yeah, I mean, well, that first season did such a great job of, and the fact that it was all these, because you could watch that, it's got a Simpsons-esque quality to that, like that, or Seinfeld, where you could put it on, if you have them synced up in some app or something, and you put it on random, you'll never get lost.
01:15:55
Speaker
Right, because each episode is very self-contained. Absolutely. And this is pretty similar to that. There's not really a lot of episodes that carry over from each other. Pretty similar. There's a little bit of carry over like when he... A little bit. After he defeats Brainiac and he gets the fortress stuff and all that. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:16:12
Speaker
And the final arc, which is of course when it all hits the fan. So, and sets the stage for Justice League and the George Newburn trail. Although I will say that one of the things I didn't like about, because I've been thinking about this a lot, because every time people talk about, when Man of Steel defenders are defending, they always bring up the Superman Shazam episode of Justice League Unlimited.
Critique of Superman in Justice League
01:16:36
Speaker
Yes, the clash. Yeah. I fucking hate Superman in that episode. I hate that Superman is a gigantic dick in that episode. He's such a dick and he is just so fat. I'm just like, I'm just like, I don't blame Shazam at all for not wanting to join the team. No, no. I am on the same page as Cap and Marvel. Please hit him again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because he's just, I hated what they did to Superman in that episode. Yeah. Unfortunately, and I don't mean to cast aspersions on the writers of the show, but they obviously had to have him be aggro so we get to the point where they fight.
01:17:05
Speaker
Yeah. And I do think it ties in a lot to the fact that, yeah, Lex is on Superman's case all the time, but he's doing it in such a passive aggressive way and slowly keeps pushing him and pushing him and pushing him because he wants him to snap and get to that Justice Lord place because he'll finally have the excuse to take out the alien that he's hated all this year.
01:17:25
Speaker
Right. He's totally working a sigh up on Superman. Yeah. But yeah, I understand. Like, I understand the pullback from it because that speech that Captain Marvel gives, that's pretty much the speech that I would give to Superman if he was acting like that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Great.
01:17:44
Speaker
I mean, I mean I love just League and just League Unlimited but that the portrayal of Superman is something that that sticks with me, especially in that episode. Yeah yeah that's the one, that's the one sore point. That's the thing that like they were kind of moving into kind of a squadron Supreme territory. Yeah, kind of exploring like
01:18:00
Speaker
Are these characters going to become the Justice Lords? And they kind of like, they threaded those, those plots a little bit, but then they ultimately had to let it go because if they become the Justice Lords, I mean, the whole show's over, right? What are we going to do, jump to another earth? So. But yeah, that's like, I, I, I'm so tired of those Superman gets corrupted by power. Now stay with me. What if Superman was totally evil?
01:18:25
Speaker
That's a radical idea that's never been done before. It's the most annoying story, most annoying, repetitive story that everybody thinks is original. I know, right? And it's just like, look, I get it. And I'm not saying that you can't tell good stories with that. I mean, I initially, when I first heard of the Injustice game, I was like, miss me with that. Absolutely miss me with that. But then,
01:18:51
Speaker
Nice young man, Tom Taylor wrote that series. Yeah. And the comic is actually good. Yeah. When I read a review of that first issue and they talked about how Superman and, you know, was brainwashed into killing the Joker basically or tricked and all that. And like, just like I'm like, this is.
01:19:08
Speaker
You don't have to do that. That sounds ridiculous. But it was the same thing with Superior Spider-Man, right? When I heard about that, I'm like, this fucking idea I've ever heard in my life. And then I read it. I'm like, oh, wait, no, no, this is actually really good. This is actually genius. Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:23
Speaker
But it's interesting, like Superman as an antagonist figure is understandable because as we've grown up and as we matured to a greater or lesser extent, we become suspicious of people in power, even the fictional ones. But I like the, my preferred idea is like not power corruption, but power reveals.
Power Dynamics: Superman vs. Lex Luthor
01:19:41
Speaker
I want to see more stories that focus on that. And I think that's a good way to show the difference between Superman and Lex, right? Superman has all this power and he uses it for good. Lex has all this power in a different way and he uses it for corrupt purposes.
01:19:54
Speaker
Oh yeah, like that last scene in the episode where, in the trilogy, where, you know, Superman shows up after defeating John Corbin and, you know, the whole thing was an elaborate ruse to get this weapons to Kasnya so that Luthor could line his pockets. And then Luthor opens the window and just basically lays it out to Superman. Like, look, my technology built this city. My will runs it. And two thirds of these people work for me, whether they know it or not. And how about you?
01:20:21
Speaker
helped me take this operation on the global. I could make it very much within a while. And Superman is just floating there the whole time. The arms crossed, staring at him. And then finally he cracks and then he throws the thing at him. It's just like, I'll be watching you, Luthor. And just crushes it and takes off. And that to me is just like their juxtaposition.
01:20:44
Speaker
Lex used to be the king of the hill. And now he's not anymore. And so that like that whole bit where he's like, I'm not finished with you. And so yeah, that builds their relationship and really starts the whole juxtaposition. And that's the kind of Superman that I like where he's
01:20:59
Speaker
He's this moral exemplar who points true north. That's my take on something. Yeah, yeah. Well, I like that, taking it back to Supergirl and to Superman and Lois, when he confronts John about the fact that John's storing kryptonite and it's like,
01:21:16
Speaker
And in a second, he goes from like, you know, you know, nice, friendly Superman, everybody gets along with everybody to being like very stern and serious. And I love that. But also when he has a similar type of thing with Sam, and he tells Sam afterwards, he's like, you know what? About those Kryptonite weapons, Sam's like, I know, I'm gonna destroy him. He's like, no, don't.
01:21:38
Speaker
And I'm like, that was Superman understanding that need for it. Exactly. He understands the need for contingency. In the comics, it's great because he takes Luke or his kryptonite ring and gives it to Batman. He's like, look, someday I could go insane. I could be mind controlled. I need to know that if things get bad, there's somebody out there with the power to put me down if it's that bad. And that's the beginning of when they truly start to become like,
01:22:04
Speaker
brothers because they're bonded over that. Good stuff, good stuff. All right, Stacey, why don't you tell people where they can find you?
Podcast Promotions
01:22:12
Speaker
Ooh, well, you can find me on the Fanboy Power Hour podcast. We release every Wednesday. My brother Ryan and I, we sit down, we talk about geek culture. And you can also find me on Twitter at, at StacyHD, S-T-A-C-Y, H is in Harold, D is a David. And yeah, I just mostly just post about nerdy stuff there too and talk about whatever's on my mind. So yeah, by all means, feel free to swing by. Awesome. Well, thanks again for coming. Always fun when you have you on back.
01:22:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. World's finest, everybody. Give an eye out for it. Well, actually, we already did that. We did that one already. Oh, you did that one already? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was one of the first episodes we did with the new format after Derek's passing. Oh, right, right, right. OK, cool. But yeah, watch this space. I'm sure we'll definitely have something else.
01:22:59
Speaker
Okay, that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And don't forget, you subscribe to the Patreon, you get these episodes a week in advance, and you also get access to the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club companion podcast. And all that's at patreon.com slash SuperheroCinephiles. Thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time.
01:23:28
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:23:49
Speaker
If you're interested in reading some comments and don't know where you should start, plus you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else. On all of this for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash supercinemahot and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts.
01:24:32
Speaker
Thank you for listening, and as always, good night, good evening, God bless.