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#152 - Maddy Belton
696 Plays1 year ago
Literary agent, Maddy Belton joins us this week to chat about how she became a literary agent, her love of fantasy and how she approaches her query letters.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Ooh, a spicy question.
00:00:02
Speaker
I love it.
00:00:02
Speaker
Because the writing is sort of everything, right?
00:00:05
Speaker
You can fix plot holes, but if the writing... So some readers love that and some readers are like, but I wanted more of this.
00:00:11
Speaker
So it's kind of a gamble.
Introduction and Maddie's Journey
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to the Right and Wrong podcast.
00:00:17
Speaker
On today's episode, I am joined by associate literary agent, Maddie Belton.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hi, welcome to the show.
00:00:25
Speaker
Hi.
00:00:26
Speaker
Well, thanks for coming on.
00:00:27
Speaker
Happy to be here.
00:00:28
Speaker
How's it going?
00:00:29
Speaker
We're at the end of the year.
00:00:31
Speaker
Is that a busy time for you and the team?
00:00:34
Speaker
Yeah, it's really busy.
00:00:36
Speaker
Also kind of my first year at Madeleine Melbourne.
00:00:39
Speaker
So it's been a wild ride.
00:00:42
Speaker
I'm trying to kind of slow things down a little bit at this point.
00:00:46
Speaker
But yeah, it's been a really busy autumn.
00:00:49
Speaker
So you started last 2022 at Madeleine Melbourne?
00:00:53
Speaker
Yeah, September 2022.
00:00:56
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:00:56
Speaker
So it's, it's just over a year.
00:00:58
Speaker
You've had your annual anniversary.
00:01:01
Speaker
Yes.
00:01:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:01:02
Speaker
They gave me a big balloon.
00:01:03
Speaker
And by day I mean Chloe.
00:01:06
Speaker
You're an associate agent now.
00:01:08
Speaker
Did you start as an associate agent?
Transition to Fiction Focus
00:01:11
Speaker
So I started at Madeline Melbourne as an associate agent, but I was previously agenting at a much smaller, more boutique literary agency that specialised in nonfiction.
00:01:24
Speaker
But obviously where I changed from sort of
00:01:28
Speaker
where I changed area, I came in at associate level so that I could learn a little bit more about the fiction process.
00:01:35
Speaker
Cause I'd only been doing nonfiction up to this point.
00:01:38
Speaker
Um, so yeah.
00:01:40
Speaker
Was that, um, how did you go?
00:01:42
Speaker
Cause you did English literature and art history at university.
00:01:47
Speaker
I did.
00:01:47
Speaker
How did you go from there to, to here?
00:01:51
Speaker
I guess I graduated.
00:01:53
Speaker
Um, I was like, Oh God, I have to fill my days.
00:01:55
Speaker
Um, and,
00:01:57
Speaker
I have always loved books like so many people in publishing and books are kind of the only really the only thing I thought about and the only thing I could see myself going into.
00:02:11
Speaker
So when I came out of uni, I was like, okay, publishing, this makes sense.
00:02:15
Speaker
These are my people.
00:02:19
Speaker
I love books and I can talk about them.
00:02:20
Speaker
Let's see what kind of job a job in this sector might look like.
00:02:24
Speaker
So I...
00:02:26
Speaker
applied really broadly and didn't get anywhere as is often the way in publishing because I just think there's so, so many people who want to do it.
00:02:37
Speaker
I joined the SYP and some various like Twitter pages and Instagram pages and kind of just got my feelers out.
00:02:45
Speaker
I went to a couple of events and
00:02:48
Speaker
I think just, you know, more general book industry events, I think some by the book machines, some by the FYP, book clubs, anything to kind of just get myself into the sphere of publishing, even if it wasn't directly a publishing job yet.
Internship to Agency: Maddie's Path
00:03:04
Speaker
And then I sent cold emails to anyone and everyone who would listen.
00:03:10
Speaker
And that was demoralizing.
00:03:12
Speaker
But I did eventually hear back from Graham Moore Christie, which is a small boutique nonfiction literary agency who are probably most famous for Vex King and Rainer Wynn.
00:03:25
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:03:27
Speaker
I got an internship there.
00:03:28
Speaker
I went and interviewed with Jane and Jen, who are the agents that run there.
00:03:32
Speaker
And I sort of worked really hard until they couldn't get rid of me.
00:03:37
Speaker
And they offered me a job after I'd helped them out at a London book fair.
00:03:42
Speaker
And it just sort of went from there.
00:03:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:45
Speaker
Okay.
00:03:45
Speaker
So it was really a case of just kind of throwing yourself at every opportunity you could find and just really getting involved within the industry.
00:03:51
Speaker
Persistence.
00:03:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:03:52
Speaker
Persistence, like a little bit of gumption and a lot of luck.
00:03:56
Speaker
And I think what I, I was lucky in a lot of ways because I think that my personality lends itself quite well to agenting.
00:04:04
Speaker
And I think I was really lucky to kind of
00:04:08
Speaker
And I know I was really lucky to sort of get a foot in the door at an agency.
00:04:12
Speaker
And Jane and Jen were very sweet and nurturing and wise.
00:04:16
Speaker
They listened to my opinion, which was a really magical thing for someone who...
00:04:21
Speaker
I don't like, you know, you go into these things, you go, oh, what good could I be?
00:04:24
Speaker
But actually they, they did ask what I thought about books and how I would pitch them.
00:04:29
Speaker
And even if sometimes I was way off, they allowed me to be quite involved in that process, which gave me a degree of independence that I think you need as an agent.
00:04:38
Speaker
And they kind of allowed me to fall on my feet sometimes as well.
00:04:41
Speaker
And it was a very nurturing environment in that way, which was really fun.
00:04:45
Speaker
Did you build any kind of list while you were there or was that something you started later?
Early Projects and Genre Focus
00:04:49
Speaker
So I did, yeah.
00:04:51
Speaker
So I was an intern and then I was an assistant.
00:04:54
Speaker
And then they did eventually put me to agent there as well.
00:04:57
Speaker
And I did build a list, a small one, because I wasn't there for a very long time.
00:05:04
Speaker
I sold some amazing children's books from the Black Curriculum.
00:05:09
Speaker
I sold, among other things, I sold a book by Ruth Allen, who is a...
00:05:14
Speaker
It's a geotherapist, I think is the official term.
00:05:17
Speaker
And we did her first book while I was at GMC that was kind of like a coffee table book with beautiful, beautiful text called Grounded.
00:05:26
Speaker
And then I also sold, while I was there with Jane, her following book, which I think is coming out next year, which is called Weathering.
00:05:37
Speaker
And it's beautiful.
00:05:39
Speaker
It's about, so she is a therapist and a geologist.
00:05:42
Speaker
Oh, okay.
00:05:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:05:44
Speaker
And she uses sort of rocks as a metaphor for like human understanding and looks at the ways that nature can provide us with systems and structures that might be beneficial to the way that like we see the world.
00:05:59
Speaker
And it's just such a, such a beautiful book.
00:06:01
Speaker
I've actually, I've got a copy of a proof and I'm going to read it because it's kind of the last book I worked on before I left GMC.
00:06:07
Speaker
And I loved it.
00:06:10
Speaker
That sounds amazing.
00:06:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's really, really cool.
00:06:14
Speaker
So does that mean that that list stayed at the old agency?
00:06:18
Speaker
You didn't take any of those authors on with you?
00:06:20
Speaker
Okay.
00:06:21
Speaker
This was obviously, it's all nonfiction.
00:06:24
Speaker
But now, am I right in thinking that your focus is almost entirely sci-fi and fantasy?
00:06:31
Speaker
Pretty much.
00:06:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of like 90-10 on the sort of...
00:06:37
Speaker
magic to non-magic um and yeah essentially that I was looking to move I think
00:06:44
Speaker
into a space that would allow me to make magic, without sounding twee.
00:06:52
Speaker
I have always been a huge reader of all books, but I think, like, gun to my head, fantasy and romance are sort of where my heart is, and that is also where I found myself being more and more drawn to.
00:07:07
Speaker
It's taken off in a really cool way.
00:07:10
Speaker
I mean, it's always been there.
00:07:12
Speaker
I think that's what...
00:07:13
Speaker
we are all sort of coming to terms with as well.
00:07:16
Speaker
There's like a canon of some kind that's existed that I've been reading, I think.
00:07:21
Speaker
But I think with TikTok and with the generation that's coming through now and this like demand for escapism, it's just happening in such a big way.
00:07:30
Speaker
And I really wanted to be part of that.
00:07:32
Speaker
And I also, it's interesting.
00:07:34
Speaker
I don't know if other people have this when they're kind of going up through publishing.
00:07:38
Speaker
I think I had a very...
00:07:39
Speaker
unique route to where I am because I didn't have very many colleagues at Graham or Christie.
00:07:47
Speaker
It was for the most part, Jane, Jen and myself.
00:07:50
Speaker
And we had some interns and various other things.
00:07:53
Speaker
So what I really also wanted was a few
Gender Bias and Market Trends in Fantasy
00:07:55
Speaker
more peers and some, some other people who might like fantasy to talk about fantasy with.
00:08:00
Speaker
So it was much like a social move as it was also a move into somewhere where I could sort of
00:08:07
Speaker
do these magical books.
00:08:08
Speaker
It was about broadening what I could do and the scope of the things I wanted to do.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:15
Speaker
You wanted to kind of move into a bigger system where there's kind of more moving parts and more things going on.
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:21
Speaker
And also fiction primarily.
00:08:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:26
Speaker
And is it you do children's and adult, the whole kind of suite?
00:08:29
Speaker
I do.
00:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny.
00:08:31
Speaker
The markets, especially in science fiction and fantasy, is more and more blurred every day, I feel.
00:08:37
Speaker
Yes.
00:08:37
Speaker
I love, you know, your Catherine Randall type and Philip Pullman type middle grade.
00:08:42
Speaker
But I would say my taste generally skews older into kind of crossover and through to adult.
00:08:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:08:50
Speaker
But I think so much of, I read a lot of fantasy and like, when you look at like, what's really popular on like a global level, so much of it is what, what we call crossover, I think, where it's like this, this could be YA, but you could also, it's also like Brandon Sanderson is, it's like both and, and like, uh, name of the wind is, I would say is crossover as well.
00:09:12
Speaker
It's one of those genres where it's so blurred.
00:09:14
Speaker
It's hard to... It's also really interesting.
00:09:17
Speaker
And I think I say this with an understanding that things are changing, but I do think for a time, a lot of women published into the fantasy space were held as YA more so than men.
00:09:31
Speaker
And I think that has an impact on kind of the way that we...
00:09:36
Speaker
we saw those categories.
00:09:37
Speaker
Whereas I think now there is understanding, there's some incredible editors and there's just a lot more movement and a lot more of this, this sense that the publishing industry likes to categorize and it's useful for them in so many ways, like data way, you know, all those things, but the consumer is less bothered most of the time.
00:09:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:58
Speaker
Especially when they're buying their own books.
00:10:01
Speaker
You know, in the middle grade market, when a parent is purchasing and some younger YA, that you can have a bit more what's appropriate, etc.
00:10:08
Speaker
But a teenager looking for...
00:10:12
Speaker
fourth wing is not caring too much about which section it's in the bookshop for.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, true.
00:10:20
Speaker
Or someone's read a Brandon Sanderson, it's like Brandon Sanderson has stuff which is categorised as YA, but also stuff categorised as adult.
00:10:26
Speaker
But people just want to read Brandon Sanderson and they don't care where it is.
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:31
Speaker
And I love Sanderson.
00:10:32
Speaker
He sort of cemented my love of fantasy, I think.
00:10:37
Speaker
Um, and he will not stop.
00:10:39
Speaker
He's putting way too many books out all the time.
00:10:41
Speaker
He is wildly and terrifyingly productive, but I think he's also really smart and he's been doing it for such a long time.
00:10:48
Speaker
Um, and he, I think he continues to adapt and change and that's also quite exciting.
00:10:55
Speaker
And learn, I think there's something which is, and I'm sure he's open about this as well, is that reading something like Mistborn and Elantris, his earlier stuff, you can see how much he's like honed the craft when you read the newer stuff, the later stuff.
00:11:09
Speaker
And it's like, you can see his kind of growth as well.
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:12
Speaker
It's really exciting in that way.
00:11:14
Speaker
Indeed.
00:11:15
Speaker
So you said it's about a 90-10 split.
00:11:19
Speaker
Is that in terms of, we're talking sci-fi fantasy, is that in terms of like 10% sci-fi, 90% fantasy or just across both?
Sci-Fi and Fantasy Preferences
00:11:29
Speaker
No, the 10% I would say is more just like other fantasy.
00:11:32
Speaker
think so um it's like 90 sci-fi and fantasy and 10 like where my gut or instinct or particular fashion takes me so you know it could be non-fiction project or um i just reserve that 10 for my wild cards because i think i think as an agent one of the best things about being an agent is you're really led by your taste right and for the most part i'm fairly predictable in what i like but
00:11:59
Speaker
I know myself when I think I do have this like 10% that's like, oh, I really like that book and I want to sell that book because I think it's really, really cool.
00:12:08
Speaker
So I'm going to offer up on this book, even though it might not be like something you would immediately associate with me.
00:12:14
Speaker
Or again, that 10% would also be sort of inspiring nonfiction for children.
00:12:20
Speaker
So yeah.
00:12:20
Speaker
Okay.
00:12:21
Speaker
You do keep up a little bit of your roots in non-fiction.
00:12:25
Speaker
You do have some in fiction there?
00:12:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to let go completely.
00:12:30
Speaker
That's good.
00:12:31
Speaker
Well, speaking about science fiction fantasy, we kind of covered it a little bit just now when you were saying it's become a much more kind of broad thing than it was historically.
00:12:44
Speaker
And I think also historically, if it was deemed fantasy, it was just put in like as a children's book.
00:12:49
Speaker
Like Lord of the Rings used to be considered a children's book.
00:12:52
Speaker
And even Philip Pullman, I mean, I would argue if Lyra is...
00:12:57
Speaker
three or four years older, that's YA through and through.
00:13:01
Speaker
Within fantasy, sci-fi, the range, you know, nowadays we have, you know, you've got your epic fantasy, but you've also got cozy fantasy, grimdark, romantic, mythology, historical, contemporary, the list goes on.
00:13:14
Speaker
Do you rep all of it or are there some kind of sections of that that you aren't really that drawn into?
00:13:21
Speaker
I rep all of it.
00:13:22
Speaker
I have the ability to rep all of it.
00:13:24
Speaker
I don't have everything on that list yet.
00:13:26
Speaker
I hope to eventually, again, my time as an agent.
00:13:30
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, my remit is really broad.
00:13:32
Speaker
And as I said, it is really directed by what I enjoy to read.
00:13:38
Speaker
And I enjoy all of those things.
00:13:40
Speaker
I probably, I love, I like Grim Dark, but not,
00:13:47
Speaker
I'm not like the biggest fan of Grim Dog.
00:13:49
Speaker
I think I would want something with like a little bit of a twist or something like that.
00:13:54
Speaker
I would say, yeah, but it depends.
00:13:56
Speaker
Again, I don't want to say I don't want it because...
00:14:00
Speaker
I do.
00:14:01
Speaker
It just has to be the right one, you know?
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:03
Speaker
I know what you mean because Grimdark's an interesting one too, because you go to the origin of it and the origin of it, I think is, it's Warhammer, I think.
00:14:11
Speaker
And that's very serious.
00:14:14
Speaker
And it's, that's where the kind of, it's all the kind of vibe and the tone of it.
00:14:18
Speaker
But then you get something like Joe Abercrombie, which is Grimdark, but it's also hilarious.
00:14:23
Speaker
And it's like really fun.
00:14:25
Speaker
Right.
00:14:26
Speaker
So it's, yeah.
00:14:27
Speaker
even the range within that sort of smaller genre of the meta genre fantasy is, yes.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah.
00:14:34
Speaker
It's, I mean, it's crazy.
00:14:36
Speaker
Like, yeah,
00:14:37
Speaker
In many ways, if you start talking about fantasy, you're talking about infinite worlds and space and time and any contrived magic you can dream up.
00:14:46
Speaker
So it is incredibly broad.
00:14:48
Speaker
I love it all, but I'm obviously driven by the market and driven by personal taste.
00:14:55
Speaker
And I think most agents are in that way.
00:14:58
Speaker
I mean, you have to be, it is also a business at the end of the day.
00:15:00
Speaker
This is, you know, this is, this is work and you need to be taking stuff that you think has a good chance of succeeding.
00:15:07
Speaker
Of course.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:07
Speaker
Cause, and you, you owe that to the authors as well.
00:15:10
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:15:11
Speaker
Um, it's, it sounds like you're very much into magic.
00:15:14
Speaker
Do you rep the non-magical, more sciencey sci-fi stuff?
00:15:20
Speaker
Not so much, which isn't to say I wouldn't.
00:15:22
Speaker
I'm not really a thriller girl.
00:15:24
Speaker
So anything that is kind of like a sci-fi thriller, I am not as naturally drawn to.
00:15:33
Speaker
But I am also really into like very complicated characters.
00:15:36
Speaker
And I sometimes think if the characters are good, then I would go there.
00:15:40
Speaker
But generally, I steer away from the kind of Blake Crouch space a little bit.
00:15:46
Speaker
Okay.
00:15:47
Speaker
Okay.
00:15:48
Speaker
That's good to know.
00:15:49
Speaker
So now that we've established what it is that you represent, what you're looking for, what you're interested in, let's talk about
Submission Process and Storytelling
00:15:57
Speaker
submissions.
00:15:57
Speaker
This is something I ask all the agents that come on.
00:16:01
Speaker
For submissions at Madeleine Milburn, you guys actually have a form system now, which is built into the website, very convenient.
00:16:12
Speaker
I'm sure it's great for your email inboxes.
00:16:14
Speaker
But nothing too surprising.
00:16:16
Speaker
It's kind of the industry standard cover letter synopsis, first three chapters, 10,000 words for fiction.
00:16:24
Speaker
So of the cover letter, synopsis and chapters, where do you go first?
00:16:31
Speaker
And what are you looking for with each part?
00:16:33
Speaker
So always the cover letter, arguably the subject line, it's got to have a good title.
00:16:39
Speaker
And then in terms of the cover letter, I want to be able to
00:16:44
Speaker
scan it fairly quickly and pick out comparative books that I love and know or that are exciting at the moment, a little bit about you and a little bit about how the book is going to make me feel.
00:16:57
Speaker
because I'm very much a mood reader and I think I'm quite driven by that.
00:17:02
Speaker
So those are the top lines.
00:17:04
Speaker
And then if the things are present, then I will read that and I will refocus on that and sort of read it a bit more deeply and then dip into kind of the first few pages, get a sense of the voice.
00:17:20
Speaker
If all's still going well, I won't finish the sample.
00:17:23
Speaker
I'll jump into the synopsis and make sure it's kind of fully formed.
00:17:28
Speaker
And then I will probably send it to my Kindle or put it in a folder to kind of read in a bit more detail on a quiet moment and kind of sit with.
00:17:39
Speaker
And then if it all goes well, I will call in the manuscript.
00:17:42
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:17:44
Speaker
That seems like you've got a real method and a real system for this.
00:17:49
Speaker
You have to be really methodical about it because you just get so many.
00:17:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:53
Speaker
You know, we're all going through those submissions looking for the specific things that, you know, spark excitement in us as agents and as people.
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:05
Speaker
So you mentioned in the cover letter that you want to know how you're going to feel, or at least how they think the words are going to make you feel.
00:18:13
Speaker
Can you just give like an example of that?
00:18:15
Speaker
That's not something I'd kind of heard before as a suggestion for a cover letter.
00:18:19
Speaker
I'm a very emotional reader.
00:18:21
Speaker
I think...
00:18:22
Speaker
What I mean by that is the narrative arc and what's at stake.
00:18:26
Speaker
Often with fantasy, or always with fantasy, and most of the time with pretty much any book, you're looking for a clear, what's the status quo?
00:18:35
Speaker
How is it being changed?
00:18:37
Speaker
And what are the consequences of that?
00:18:40
Speaker
And I think if you can get that across to me in a blurb, like that's how I try and pitch things.
00:18:45
Speaker
And so if I can pick those things out of your sort of blurb that you've written or your cover or synopsis of the book itself, then I know I'm onto a winner because those are the kind of things that readers will latch onto.
00:18:58
Speaker
You know, is it a love story?
00:19:00
Speaker
Is it about belonging?
00:19:01
Speaker
You know, obviously it's about a world ending story.
00:19:05
Speaker
like magical curse or something like that.
00:19:07
Speaker
But when you break it down, like, is this about found family?
00:19:10
Speaker
Is this a quest narrative?
00:19:12
Speaker
You know, is this a werewolf book that's about, you know, changing and what that means and that kind of thing.
00:19:18
Speaker
I'm looking for those broad strokes that have the depth that I like to work with.
00:19:24
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:25
Speaker
And presumably if there's like a sort of overarching vibe of the thing, so like if it's like a... Yeah, it's a vibe check.
00:19:31
Speaker
It's a good way of looking at it.
00:19:33
Speaker
Like if it's a cozy fantasy, you'd be like, let me know it's cozy.
00:19:37
Speaker
You know, in the pitch events where there's often like a mood board attached to a pitch, I'm sort of, when I'm looking at that cover letter, I'm building that mood board in my head.
00:19:49
Speaker
Okay.
00:19:50
Speaker
So it's about...
00:19:52
Speaker
the images, the vibe, the mood, is it dark, is it light, is it cozy, is it romantic, is it gory, like all those things.
00:20:00
Speaker
I need to be able to get them quite quickly.
00:20:03
Speaker
Right.
00:20:04
Speaker
And often I can, which is really fun.
00:20:07
Speaker
Like I think one thing I will also say about submissions is even in the year that I've been looking at fiction submissions at Mountlinn, they get better.
00:20:16
Speaker
But I think people have really started to nail their pitching, which is really exciting.
00:20:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:20
Speaker
I've heard the standard of not just the submissions and the queries themselves, but they're just like writing in general has gone up sort of exponentially almost every year, I guess it goes up.
00:20:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:20:32
Speaker
Which is so cool.
00:20:34
Speaker
Worrying for all the people wanting to break into the industry when it's like, yeah, competition is much harder than it was last year.
00:20:41
Speaker
It is, it is.
00:20:41
Speaker
But yeah,
00:20:45
Speaker
Equally, you know, a good story will always win.
00:20:48
Speaker
And it's more art than science.
00:20:51
Speaker
Like there's no exact formula for success at any stage.
00:20:55
Speaker
I don't think there's just what you love and what the reader loves.
00:21:00
Speaker
And I think if you can, if you can put that on a page, then you're onto a winner.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:06
Speaker
And just like with you and getting into publishing, it's about perseverance and just, just kind of keeping good despite, you know, all this sort of ups and downs.
00:21:16
Speaker
Exactly.
00:21:16
Speaker
Yeah, definitely.
00:21:18
Speaker
So that's fiction.
00:21:20
Speaker
You do, as you say, represent a small portion that sometimes is nonfiction.
00:21:25
Speaker
Slightly different thing to pitch.
00:21:28
Speaker
It's outlines and chapter samples.
00:21:30
Speaker
Am I right in thinking there's sort of more emphasis on the author with a nonfiction and their connection and qualifications in relation to whatever the book is going to be about?
Nonfiction Market Needs
00:21:41
Speaker
So it sort of depends.
00:21:43
Speaker
It's contextual, but I would say...
00:21:47
Speaker
It depends more on the justification of why the idea needs to go to market and who is looking for that book.
00:21:57
Speaker
I think with nonfiction, you have to think about there being a need for the book to fill.
00:22:02
Speaker
And justifying that need is the key to selling that book.
00:22:07
Speaker
So, yeah.
00:22:08
Speaker
more so than like the text, whereas in fiction, like being, that text being able to carry the reader is really, really strong reasoning.
00:22:17
Speaker
In nonfiction, it is more about whether or not the person writing the book is the right person to fill the gap in the market and how that gap will be served by this book.
00:22:30
Speaker
Okay.
00:22:31
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:22:32
Speaker
So there's, there's almost, I mean, you have to think about your audience and where this sits on a shelf, no matter what, but it seems like with nonfiction, there's almost a much bigger sort of like, you need to know exactly the kind of demographics that this is for.
00:22:45
Speaker
Exactly.
00:22:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:22:47
Speaker
Okay.
00:22:47
Speaker
It's very much about, as I said, fulfilling a need.
00:22:50
Speaker
And particularly in children's nonfiction, which is the only kind I do now.
00:22:55
Speaker
It's about kind of like, what is that parent looking for?
00:22:58
Speaker
when they're going into the bookshop and trying to kind of find something that's going to support their child's learning.
00:23:04
Speaker
And one of the simplest ways of thinking about that is they're looking for something that will complement what they're learning in school.
00:23:11
Speaker
Okay.
00:23:12
Speaker
That's interesting.
00:23:13
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:15
Speaker
So they look at the curriculum and then maybe
00:23:18
Speaker
what's not in the curriculum, but like might be adjacent to it.
00:23:21
Speaker
That would be a really cool thing to have a book on.
00:23:25
Speaker
That kind of thing.
00:23:26
Speaker
Okay.
00:23:27
Speaker
That's a whole, that's a whole market and, and, and writing that I've never even thought of and not even considered.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
Which is really fun.
00:23:35
Speaker
And also like, again, things that parents find hard to explain, um, that, you know, it really depends on the parent there.
00:23:44
Speaker
Um, but you know,
00:23:48
Speaker
For example, if I was a parent, I would probably be looking for science and maths books for my children because those are the things that I struggled with at school the most.
00:23:58
Speaker
Right.
00:23:58
Speaker
And that I...
00:24:00
Speaker
I myself or my parents when I was younger would like get me books on those subjects, help me get more interested.
00:24:06
Speaker
So you've got sort of that side of it.
00:24:07
Speaker
And then you've also got the like really kid that's like done all the schoolwork, really excited about space, for example, and just wants to consume more than the teacher is able to provide them.
00:24:19
Speaker
So the parent wants something that's going to, you know, excite their curiosity, take them to the next level in that way.
00:24:24
Speaker
Oh, that's great.
00:24:26
Speaker
That's so, that's inspirational.
00:24:28
Speaker
I would say that's great.
00:24:30
Speaker
I really like that.
00:24:31
Speaker
And I guess there's also a, when you're talking about, you know, if a parent is struggles themselves to explain a certain subject, they get a book that does that, but they can also learn with their child, uh, get, they can get a kind of grip on it at the same time.
00:24:45
Speaker
That's great.
00:24:46
Speaker
And I think as well, um,
00:24:48
Speaker
There is only so much time a teacher in a classroom has to explain things.
00:24:53
Speaker
And there is only so much that is in the national curriculum.
00:24:56
Speaker
And there are gaps.
00:24:58
Speaker
And so it's also about diversifying learning and making sure that everyone sees themselves in history and science and all those things.
00:25:05
Speaker
And English as well.
00:25:06
Speaker
Well, that's great.
00:25:07
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:25:08
Speaker
It's not something I'd ever really thought about before, but it makes a lot of sense.
00:25:12
Speaker
Let's get back onto you before we, as we head towards the, the twilight of the episode, we are recording this.
00:25:19
Speaker
It's near the end of the year 2023 in 2024.
00:25:21
Speaker
Are there any specific genres or characters or settings or styles that you are really hoping to see in your submissions
Interest in Dark Fantasy and Dragons
00:25:31
Speaker
box?
00:25:31
Speaker
Yes, always.
00:25:34
Speaker
I have not yet found, but really want a vampire or a werewolf book.
00:25:39
Speaker
Okay.
00:25:40
Speaker
Could be both at once.
00:25:42
Speaker
I'm not, I'm not that, you know, I just want it to be dark and bloody, a little bit sexy.
00:25:51
Speaker
I want it to explore like monsters and, you know, monstrousness.
00:25:57
Speaker
In a YA setting, I think it could be really cool in the vein of kind of growing up and what that means as you grow up to be growing up into a vampire or a werewolf or to be dealing with that at times when you're not having to deal with a lot.
00:26:12
Speaker
In the adult space, it would be really cool to see like a real urban twist on those things like give me corporate vampires.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:24
Speaker
you know, that kind of, that kind of thing, um, I think could be really cool.
00:26:29
Speaker
And like, you know, really Gothic imagery and visuals.
00:26:32
Speaker
So that's definitely on my list.
00:26:34
Speaker
Literal corporate vampires.
00:26:36
Speaker
Literal corporate vampires.
00:26:39
Speaker
Um, but truly anything, um,
00:26:43
Speaker
shifter or vampire love and i really love that also if you if you are so that way inclined like i love that in the romance space as well like paranormal romance i love paranormal romance and i used to read it a lot when i was growing up i think it's really making a comeback so i would love some like quite romantic things in that space too but i'm not limited to them i also just like them in
00:27:06
Speaker
I also really always, always, always love epic fantasy, both YA and adult.
00:27:12
Speaker
I feel like that is like my favorite, favorite thing.
00:27:14
Speaker
It's what I read the most of.
00:27:16
Speaker
And with epics, what I am always most drawn to are the kind of the way that magic impacts the way worlds are built and fall.
00:27:30
Speaker
and who gets left behind and who tells the stories of empires kingdoms universes that rise and fall with time um so that kind of scope
00:27:44
Speaker
is really interesting to me.
00:27:45
Speaker
And how do you convey that both on a massive scale with your world building, but also in that gorgeous intimate scale?
00:27:53
Speaker
And how does that affect Joanna, the village librarian that had to sweep up the ashes of all the books that were burnt in the wall?
00:28:02
Speaker
That kind of thing.
00:28:04
Speaker
The micro and the macro and how they intersect is my heart, lad.
00:28:08
Speaker
I love it.
00:28:10
Speaker
Okay.
00:28:10
Speaker
So you must really like the Stormlight Archives.
00:28:13
Speaker
Yes, I love the Stomart Archives.
00:28:17
Speaker
I love them a lot.
00:28:18
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:19
Speaker
I'm just thinking that, I think in the first one, The Way of Kings, there's like two prologues and you're getting sort of narrated by like basically gods and then like kings and like it's constantly shifting.
00:28:31
Speaker
Exactly, I love that.
00:28:33
Speaker
And then also dragons.
00:28:35
Speaker
Nice.
00:28:35
Speaker
Still haven't found my dragon book, but I like love dragons.
00:28:38
Speaker
And dragons in middle grade as well.
00:28:40
Speaker
All the dragons, like
00:28:41
Speaker
Through any genre, dragons, please.
00:28:44
Speaker
Huge dragon girl.
00:28:45
Speaker
Dragons could be hard at the moment, I guess, because House of the Dragon is like such a big impact.
00:28:52
Speaker
But they are also perennial and like Christopher Palolini's, is that how you say his name?
00:28:58
Speaker
I hope so.
00:29:00
Speaker
His series was Eragon.
00:29:03
Speaker
I read that when I was in school when I was really young.
00:29:05
Speaker
It was my first epic fantasy.
00:29:08
Speaker
It was my entry point into the genre.
00:29:10
Speaker
Okay.
00:29:11
Speaker
you know there will always be kind of a whole I hold a very sweet spot in my heart for it and that kind of book I really really love and it doesn't really go out of fashion like trends come and go but everyone loves a dragon yeah especially now especially now yeah dragons yeah dragons don't really go out of fashion they just kind of the fashion around them changes
00:29:36
Speaker
So like House of the Dragon has made them kind of like these terrifying ancient beasts that some people can train and stuff, whereas like other things happen is more friendly.
00:29:46
Speaker
It varies.
00:29:47
Speaker
There's loads of ways to do it.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I'm open to them all.
00:29:49
Speaker
And there could be more.
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:29:52
Speaker
Exactly.
00:29:53
Speaker
And I'd love to see kind of, um, and we've had it a little bit, uh,
00:29:58
Speaker
Sulin Tan has written some beautiful books, The Heart of the Sun Warrior.
00:30:03
Speaker
And I think she's got more tales from the Cecil Kingdom coming.
00:30:07
Speaker
And I really love dragons also from other mythologies and in other canons.
00:30:12
Speaker
We know the Western dragon quite well.
00:30:14
Speaker
But many, many other cultures have their version of a dragon.
00:30:18
Speaker
And it would be cool to see that.
00:30:19
Speaker
It's funny that so many different cultures across the world have like a version of what is a dragon.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:26
Speaker
I guess I think human beings would just always want to fly.
00:30:28
Speaker
We want to fly on like giant scaly things that we'd fire.
00:30:34
Speaker
Exactly.
00:30:35
Speaker
Amazing.
00:30:36
Speaker
Before we get onto the final question, um, uh, always love to ask, uh, agents this obviously with, uh, you, your colleague, Chloe, we, we, we know the answer, but it's safe to say that you, you love books, stories, literature.
Editorial Role and Literary Preferences
00:30:51
Speaker
Would you, um, or are you writing a manuscript of your own?
00:30:56
Speaker
Would you like to publish something of your own one day?
00:30:59
Speaker
Gosh, this is a, this is a question I've been wrestling with recently, actually.
00:31:03
Speaker
Um,
00:31:05
Speaker
I never, never necessarily grew up wanting to write.
00:31:09
Speaker
I grew up wanting to read and I have always defined myself in terms of like my work as more of an architect than a builder.
00:31:17
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:18
Speaker
It's interesting.
00:31:19
Speaker
So short answer, no.
00:31:22
Speaker
I much prefer moving parts of other people's stories.
00:31:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:26
Speaker
But I did draft the synopsis of something the other day because I was just looking for something in my subs that I couldn't find.
00:31:34
Speaker
So who knows?
00:31:36
Speaker
I don't know.
00:31:37
Speaker
It's not something like maybe one day, but it's not a priority for me at the moment.
00:31:41
Speaker
And I'm not currently writing a manuscript, no.
00:31:43
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:43
Speaker
So it's a never say never kind of thing.
00:31:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:46
Speaker
Okay.
00:31:46
Speaker
And are you just off the back of that, are you quite an editorial agent with your, with your authors?
00:31:51
Speaker
Do you like to sort of get involved and brainstorm with them and do that kind of stuff?
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:55
Speaker
I love to do that.
00:31:56
Speaker
I love to do that.
00:31:57
Speaker
It's like one of the most fun things about my job.
00:32:00
Speaker
I always, it's also something I talk to people a lot when I'm offering rep, kind of my vision for the book and whether they want to kind of do the work.
00:32:09
Speaker
Every book is different.
00:32:10
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's a dialogue, editing and bringing ideas to the table is a service that I hope I offer as an agent and something that I really enjoy doing.
00:32:24
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:25
Speaker
Amazing.
00:32:25
Speaker
Awesome.
00:32:26
Speaker
Well, I think this has been, for anyone listening, if they wanted to get a sense of you and what you're into and what you're interested in as an agent, I think this has been a great demonstration of that.
00:32:36
Speaker
And we are now at what is always the final question of every episode, which is, Maddie, if you were stranded on a desert island with a single book, which book would you want it to be?
00:32:50
Speaker
I think it would be
00:32:53
Speaker
Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller because it is to date the only book that I've read more than three times.
00:33:02
Speaker
Wow.
00:33:04
Speaker
That's not really a big re-reader.
00:33:06
Speaker
Yeah.
00:33:07
Speaker
But I do return to that one quite regularly.
00:33:10
Speaker
And I just, it has epicness.
00:33:13
Speaker
It has a love story.
00:33:16
Speaker
It has gods.
00:33:19
Speaker
I just, yeah, I really like it.
00:33:20
Speaker
I wanted, I will say, I know this is cheating, but I did want to say the Liveship Trilogy by Robin Hobb.
00:33:26
Speaker
because I've never managed to finish it and I'm desperate to but I just never find the time but that is three books and I couldn't just take one yeah of those books do you know what I mean like I'd have to take the full set um so that's like my bonus answer okay because I love Robin Hobb and I haven't read that trilogy yeah she's prolific as well she's written so much yes yeah
00:33:48
Speaker
Amazing.
00:33:49
Speaker
Well, great choices.
00:33:50
Speaker
Song of Achilles is probably a modern classic, I would guess.
00:33:55
Speaker
I would guess it'll get put into those hallowed halls relatively soon.
00:33:58
Speaker
I hope so.
00:33:59
Speaker
But a great choice.
00:34:00
Speaker
I think the first person to choose Song of Achilles.
00:34:03
Speaker
Oh, really?
00:34:04
Speaker
I thought that was quite a generic answer, but I'm pleased.
00:34:07
Speaker
No, no.
00:34:09
Speaker
The most often picked is almost any Jane Austen.
00:34:14
Speaker
I am, I'm not a big Jane Austen fan.
00:34:17
Speaker
We found her guys.
00:34:19
Speaker
The Jane Austen hater.
00:34:21
Speaker
I know.
00:34:21
Speaker
I know I don't hate her.
00:34:22
Speaker
I really love Pride and Prejudice, the film in every iteration.
00:34:26
Speaker
But, um, I tried, I, the only Jane Austen I've actually managed to read is Emma.
00:34:31
Speaker
Okay.
00:34:32
Speaker
And you didn't love it?
00:34:33
Speaker
Um, it was fine.
00:34:37
Speaker
Well, to each his own, you know?
00:34:39
Speaker
Yeah, exactly.
00:34:40
Speaker
Not enough magic for me, Jamie.
00:34:41
Speaker
There you go, that's the issue.
00:34:42
Speaker
Not enough dragons.
00:34:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:44
Speaker
She just needed a bit of magic and a bit of otherworldly stuff.
00:34:47
Speaker
Yeah, a dragon or two, you know, and that would be a bit of fun.
00:34:51
Speaker
Did you ever watch that, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?
00:34:53
Speaker
Oh, do you know why I didn't?
00:34:55
Speaker
But I reckon I would like that.
00:34:57
Speaker
It's very silly.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, I like a bit of silliness, so that's okay.
00:35:01
Speaker
So you'd be interested in a magical retelling of a Jane Austen?
00:35:05
Speaker
Yes, but I wouldn't know if I'm the best person before it because I don't know the original material well enough necessarily.
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, maybe.
00:35:11
Speaker
Or maybe that would be a good thing.
00:35:13
Speaker
Maybe.
00:35:14
Speaker
I don't know.
00:35:15
Speaker
It would depend on the execution, as it often does.
00:35:18
Speaker
Anyway, we're going off on wild tangents.
00:35:20
Speaker
Sorry, sorry.
00:35:22
Speaker
Thank you so much, Maddy, for coming on the podcast and telling us all about your kind of career so far, what you're doing, what you're up to at Madeleine Milburn, what you're interested in and kind of all of the stuff that goes with your literary agenting.
00:35:35
Speaker
It's been awesome chatting with you.
00:35:36
Speaker
Thanks so much, Jamie.
00:35:37
Speaker
And for anyone wanting to keep up with what Maddie is doing, you can follow her on Twitter at Mads Phyllis.
00:35:44
Speaker
That's M-A-D-S-P-H-Y-L-L-I-S or on Instagram at Maddie Belton.
00:35:49
Speaker
If you're thinking about subbing to Maddie or any of the team over at Madeline Milburn, head over to the website and you can find their submission form process on there.
00:35:59
Speaker
And to make sure you don't miss an episode of this podcast, follow along on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook.
00:36:03
Speaker
You can support the show on Patreon.
00:36:05
Speaker
And for more bookish chat, check out my other podcast, The Chosen Ones and Other Tropes.
00:36:09
Speaker
Thanks again to Maddy and thanks to everyone listening.
00:36:11
Speaker
We'll catch you on the next episode.