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Understanding Relationship Selling – a conversation with Rob Spence
0 Playsin 9 hours
Rob Spence is the founder of Paragon Sales Solutions, a Leicester based sales and marketing services provider and author of the best-selling book, Relationship Selling.
In this episode of the Abeceder podcast The Independent Minds Rob tells explains what Relationship Selling is to host Michael Millward.
Rob describes how the process of selling creates the negative experiences that many buyers have of being sold to.
He uses a quotation from Jeffery Gitomer to explain how a relationship-based approach to sales benefits both buyer and seller.
Rob explains the three ‘R’ of sales and how this can be applied to the long-term approach that relationship selling.
Michael applies what Rob describes to his experience of being sold to by Zencastr, the company that provides the technology that The Independent Minds is created on.
Rob also explains the difference between relationship selling and social selling.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
Zencastr is the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms like Spotify, Apple, and Google. It really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Find out more about both Michael Millward and Rob Spence at Abeceder.co.uk
Travel
Leicester is famous for Richard III, Gary Lineker, and Rob Spence, so if you fancy visiting the best place make your travel arrangements The Ultimate Travel Club, which is where you can access trade prices for flights, trains, hotels and holidays. Use my offer code ABEC79 to receive a discount on your membership fee.
Matchmaker.fm
Thank you to the team at Matchmaker.fm the introduction to Rob.
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or if like Rob, you have something very interesting to say Matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and great guests are made. Use our offer code MILW10 for a discount on membership.
Three the network
If you are listening to The Independent Minds on your smart phone, you may like to know that Three has the UK’s Fastest 5G Network with Unlimited Data, so listening on Three means you can wave goodbye to buffering.
Visit Three for information about business and personal telecom solutions from Three, and the special offers available when you quote my referral code WPFNUQHU.
Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
We recommend that potential guests take one of the podcasting guest training programmes available from Work Place Learning Centre.
We appreciate every like, download, and subscriber.
Thank you for listening.
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Transcript
Welcome to The Independent Minds Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencaster. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abisida and people who think outside the box about how work works, with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
Meet the Hosts: Michael & Rob
00:00:23
Speaker
I'm your host, Michael Millward, managing director of Abisida.
00:00:29
Speaker
Usually at this point, I start telling you about the jingle at the start of this podcast, but not to- today. Let's do things a little bit differently. You see, my guest independent mind is Rob Spence, who runs a company called Paragon Sales Solutions. Hello Rob. Hi Michael. Thanks so much for having me on. We haven't finished yet. You might not say that at the end of this, but I'll take it for now.
Rob Spence on Relationship Selling
00:00:58
Speaker
Now, Rob is an exponent. Oh, I knew I was going to have difficulty with that word. Rob is an exponent of relationship selling. So before we start, I wanted to tell you about the relationships that I have with some of my suppliers. The first of those is Zancaster.
00:01:18
Speaker
Zencaster provide the technology that we use to record the independent minds and all the other podcasts produced by Abersida. Zencaster is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which I can make my podcasts in one place and then distribute them to all of the major platforms.
00:01:37
Speaker
And the glory of it is that Zenkaster is so straightforward that it really does make making content so easy. Yes, anyone can do it, including you. So if you would like to try podcasting using Zenkaster, visit zenkaster.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code ABACEDA. All the details are in the description.
00:02:00
Speaker
Now that I've told you a little bit about how wonderful Zencaster is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
Encouraging Independent Thought
00:02:12
Speaker
As with every episode of The Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think.
Famous Leicester: Beyond Cheese and Crisps
00:02:20
Speaker
Now, Rob and his company Paragon Sales Solutions is based in Leicester. It's not a city I know very much about, but it is one that I think I drove through once. So, Rob, what is Leicester famous for? For me, is the honest answer, Michael.
00:02:40
Speaker
I'm an avid football fan so we can't we can't not talk about the the Premier League winning side of of a few years gone. Let's not talk about the football now because I think it's a complete different performance level but look we are the home of pork pies or Motomobriars, I should say, we're home of Gary Lineker, Walker's Crisps. And of course, King Richard III is famously, although hidden for a while, buried here. So well um'm ah you know I'm a big advocate for the city. Some say the sign on the way out is the best part about it, but i I'm a Leicester man born and bred, and I'm here to defend it as best I can. Okay, so Leicester is famous for Richard III, Gary Lineker and Rob Spence.
The Art of Podcast Banter in Sales
00:03:24
Speaker
What more could you want the perfect tree I will have to stop in Leicester at one time, but if I do I'll be sure to make my travel arrangements with the Ultimate Travel Club because the Ultimate Travel Club is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays and all sorts of other travel related purchases. Now what you've just listened to is a little bit of banter around us planning and organizing this podcast and want? The perfect trio.
00:03:55
Speaker
Part of that banter, it's relaxing for us. It gets us in it gets my guests into a false sense of security. so thanks I'm shaking. I know, I know, I know. But I'm wondering, so like Rob, is the banter part of relationship selling?
What is Relationship Selling?
00:04:14
Speaker
What is relationship selling? Yeah, I mean, for me, relationship selling,
00:04:20
Speaker
Look, we've all been we've all been sold to no matter what and no matter what industry we're in. And I think when we think of salespeople, we think of the snake oil salespeople, right? We think of the, and I apologize to any salesperson listening to this, and I can only say it because I'm one of you,
00:04:38
Speaker
But we think of the sweet, the sweaty, the the sleazy, the cheap suited, gifted the gab type salesperson willing to you know sell their soul to whoever just to get a sale through the door. And of course, those people still exist. And of course, those people still make a sale from time to time. When I was going through my sales career and in obviously toying with with the terminology of of relationship selling,
00:05:04
Speaker
For me, my sales career really elevated and and took off when you you take away the the cheesiness, the sleaziness, the closing techniques, the kind of, I'll use the term manipulation tactics lightly, but when you put those to one side and focus on the relationship,
00:05:22
Speaker
For me, that's where sales really comes into its own. and you know For me, the the key terminology that I came across when I was studying relationship selling was a quote by by another sales author called Jeffrey Gittimer.
00:05:37
Speaker
And in one of his books, he says, if you make a sale, you will make a commission. But if you make a friend, you will make a living. And it was upon hearing that statement that then just absolutely changed, revolutionized the way that The way ah it changed the way I wanted to sell to people, it changed the way I wanted to be sold to. And it made me realize that there's a better way and more effective way of of doing things. Right.
Rob's Sales Journey and Book
00:06:05
Speaker
So how long were you in sales before you set up Paragon Sales Solutions?
00:06:09
Speaker
Goodness. So, I mean, across ah a couple of jobs and a couple of careers, you know, I've kind of been in sales for around sort of 10 or 12 years. For me, I'd started, um I'd fallen into sales, which I think a lot of people do don't know. I don't think anyone wakes up saying, I want to be a salesperson. I don't think they do.
00:06:29
Speaker
If that is one of you, then please do write in. It'd be good to hear from you. but But for me, I fell into sales. I did a lot of studying in sales and yeah, it was 2018. No, it wasn't my part. It was 2017, I should say, when my book Relationship Selling got published and subsequently a year after in 2018 when I started the business and and went off on my own. So Relationship Selling is I'm none the wiser really. Relationship selling is where instead of making a commission, you make a living, which sort of creates the impression that it's it's more long-term than the sale.
00:07:10
Speaker
Absolutely and once again it's is's something that can get very diluted and is has been very hard to replicate I think in today's modern way of selling which i which I'll come on to in a second and to why I say that. And I think for me relationship selling is going looking past the sales targets, the high pressure mentality just moving on to the next shiny thing onto the next shiny thing and having this kind of magpie effect.
00:07:37
Speaker
and it's about putting that relationship first now don't get me wrong i'm a business owner myself i've been a sales director i've been a sales manager and i've been a sales person and of course sales figures sales targets and of course closing sales is is vitally important to business success and absolutely it is but i believe that you'll see better stronger sales happen when you put the relationship first but then you'll open up the magic to to what I call the three hours of selling which are repeat business so repeat custom from you know the customers that you've sold to and then also recommendations and referrals and I keep those separate for a reason because for me the recommendations are the referrals that happen when you're not in the room so the recommendations are when your two peers or two people that you know are down the pub
00:08:30
Speaker
and they're having a chat about X, Y, and Z, and they say, oh, you need speech such and such because they did a good job for me. They're what happened when you're not in the room. And of course a referral for me is when you actually actively seek and ask people for referrals. So
Balancing Sales Targets with Relationship Building
00:08:44
Speaker
by putting that relationship first, although sometimes the sales cycle can take longer, the sales process can take longer,
00:08:51
Speaker
your relationship and your attraction to whatever it is or what your prospect is buying is far deeper than just a transactional relationship. yeah i think I get what you mean, but I want to go back a few seconds and so say you're talking about the relationship sale, focusing on the relationship and not so much on the target. I can see a situation where a sales director says, we're going to adopt a relationship based selling approach. We'll put all of our salespeople through a training program.
00:09:26
Speaker
And yet then they're almost at conflict with each other because the relationship side is focused on the long term, yeah the repeat business. And yet for so many businesses, it's like, have we met the more, the monthly target? Have we met the quarterly target?
00:09:44
Speaker
there must be some organizations that if they are very focused on weekly, monthly, quarterly targets, that they're never actually going to be able to introduce ah successfully, at least a relationship based selling process. Yeah, absolutely.
Nurturing Leads vs. High Sales Churn
00:10:00
Speaker
And like many good things in and life, it does encourage, ah you know, like I said earlier, a longer sales process, a longer sales cycle. It means that the pipeline may take longer to warm up and nurture. It doesn't mean that you can't rely on the relationship sooner to try and yield, I hate the term, but yield the low hanging fruit and to try and get some early wins and some early gains and some early sales. It doesn't mean that the relationship will naturally have to take you know six to 12 months to fully nurture. But you know for if you want to sit in the in the shade during the summertime, you plant the seed
00:10:36
Speaker
the previous summer right you plant that you plant that tree seed in in the autumn you don't plant it in the summer you plant it earlier so there there will be sales directors you know sales managers there'll be company directors listening to this going ah we don't have time for that we we don't have time.
00:10:52
Speaker
And I see it time after time and and I think we see a big churn in sales people at times because results aren't coming through as quick as they want them to be and things aren't taking as long and that's that can be just as damaging for business because it's one in, one out, one
The Buyer's Perspective in Sales
00:11:08
Speaker
in, one out. And for me when we see that situation it means that the seeds that are being planted by the salesperson haven't had enough time to yield that harvest that everyone, you know, so wants. So absolutely, I mean, in full agreement, we do need quick quick and easy wins. I'm all for quick and easy wins, and but they will naturally come with the more seeds that that you sow. Yes, like you planted tree, not so that you can sit in the shade, but almost so that your grandchildren can sit in the shade. Absolutely. I love that. Absolutely. And I'm thinking I'll send you an invoice for that one.
00:11:47
Speaker
I'm comparing what you've said then with my experience of being sold to by Zencaster and how they did see me I think as like this novice person who's got involved in creating content and I'm this little seed and there was never any sort of pressure that all that they all that it was was we're here to help you make a success they never said we're here to help you make a success of your podcast and your content creation but that is the message that I got from just the
00:12:25
Speaker
I was going to say the constant, but that gives the impression that they're constantly at you sort of thing. It was like, I ask a question. They come back with an answer that made me.
00:12:36
Speaker
didn't make me feel as if there was anything wrong about asking that question. It was just completely, they'd almost have got their arms around me, supporting me, helping me. And yeah, that's, that was the start of the relationship, believing, feeling that I have almost got someone who's investing in this seed and is going to nurture the relationship with me so that I can be successful.
00:13:05
Speaker
ah Absolutely. And if I can just sort of turn that around on yourself, you know, because obviously over the years, Michael, I'm sure you've been sold to in obviously with the way that Zencaster you said it was about planting that seed and being there for the journey. Would you see when it was that kind of approach, it was very evident that that that whole relationship and that whole transaction was going to be a win-win situation for you?
00:13:29
Speaker
I think that is a very good way of describing it. Their success was dependent upon my success and my success was dependent upon their success. I do remember around the same sort of time, having a conversation with another organization about something completely different.
00:13:47
Speaker
And not wanting the sales process to continue because I didn't believe that I was being valued. ah that They weren't interested in me. It was all like, this is our process. We're going to to go through, tick all these boxes. And if you come out of the end of it, then great. But I felt used by that company and exploited rather than supported.
00:14:11
Speaker
Absolutely and when when we go back to what you mentioned earlier about you know these these quick wins and getting those through the the circle I think or through the cycle I think that's where many sales people go wrong especially in this digital age that we go through. Once again i we've been sat here recording now for 15-20 minutes give or take and I have no doubt that during this time I would have had some emails and probably some LinkedIn messages from people just trying to get a quick sale from me on one email. you know I'll have that email in my inbox where it's just, hi Rob, I think you'd love this. Please book here for a discovery call or something like that. There's been no time to get to know me, my wants, my needs, my pain points.
00:14:55
Speaker
my plans for the future what my business actually is how their solution can help my business and similar to yourself I know that I've purchased things and bought things from both a you know a consumer from ah a b2c level and a b2b level where have I've made that purchase because it's not seemed like just a monetary transaction it felt like the right thing to do at the right time Yes. And I think and what you've just said makes me, well it brings to mind this idea that when a relationship selling process works and I've felt as if I've got that relationship, I haven't been sold to, I've bought.
00:15:39
Speaker
You know, it's not, I've not being sold to and therefore entered the transaction from that perspective. I have been educated, informed, guided and the, the decision is mine to purchase rather than being sold to.
00:16:00
Speaker
Absolutely and that I guess that then takes away and and this is why relationship selling is so so crucial it takes away that buyer's remorse which we've all been through we've all had that you know we've made our desire levels are at those hundred degrees our desire levels are at that boiling point for whatever reason. We've made a purchasing decision. You know, sometimes it could be at 10 o'clock at night in the pub and we've had two or three beers and then we regret buying that fourth or fifth, right? Just speaking from experience. But sometimes it can be, you know, investing in a software, investing in a hardware, whatever it is. And you go, oh, actually, I don't need this. And it's because those desire levels at that time were were perfect.
00:16:45
Speaker
And once again, if we think about that relationship, that buyer's remorse becomes, if not null and void, it becomes very small. And so therefore, when we then look at a business from ah from a bigger picture, yes, we've not just got sales in, we've got sales of customers that are more likely going to stay with us, that we may see a higher order value for,
00:17:08
Speaker
and we'll see longevity and once again those recommendations and
Integrating Relationship Selling with Other Techniques
00:17:12
Speaker
referrals. So I think sometimes that relationship selling, although yes takes a longer investment of time, the the the return on investment is is far greater than just the hit and hope kind of method. Yes, I get what you mean. And I think that When I so started discussing relationship selling with you, it was almost like I'm thinking that an organization that wants to sell something either has to say we're a relationship selling type organization or we're a pilot high sell it cheap type organization, or we want the quick sale type organization. And actually you know that's wrong.
00:17:56
Speaker
I'm sure there are organizations that's like focus on each and many different sales techniques, but the reality is that if you've got the relationship selling works for an organization that is selling when that approach works for the customer. There will be customers of the same selling organization who know what they want, don't want to argue about the price, just get it to me, I'm buying it and An organization, I suppose, has to have the versatility to be able to identify which approach is going to be best for each potential customer.
00:18:39
Speaker
Absolutely right. And I think you've hit the nail on the head. For me, the approach isn't right from now on. We are this relationship-selling type business. This is the way we do things. It's about enabling and triggering, encouraging, supporting team members, salespeople, BDMs, STRs, however you want to word them.
00:19:01
Speaker
to allow them to have that conversation. And I go back to when I was sort of, although I still sell for my business, but kind of selling heavily on the phone often with clients. My boss really understood that sometimes you may have a 10 to 15 minute conversation with a prospect, with a customer, with no intended sort of call to action, with no sort of you know closing at the end.
Trust and Genuine Connections in Sales
00:19:27
Speaker
because that was then a ah granular step towards a deeper relationship which then encouraged a deeper sail down the line. Yes, and I suppose then you also have the the customer phoning you up, not wanting to buy anything, but you are the person that they feel comfortable sharing a problem with. Absolutely, you become a ah person of value, you become a ah person of trust, you become a, to some degree, an advisor, sometimes a counsellor as well, I guess for some customers.
00:19:59
Speaker
But then that trust is is built and it allows such a deep relationship. And it goes back to that saying I said at the start of this section, you know, if you make a sale, you'll make it a commission. But if you make that friend, you will make a living. And I genuinely believe that that comes down from the relationship, which is a ah byproduct so or something that runs in parallel with trust. And it allows for such greater magic to happen.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah. Now you use that word friend and I'm sure there are people listening who have been through a sales process with a salesperson who was very friendly. And as soon as the contract has been signed, it's then, now well, now you've got to talk to customer service and and you never talk to the same person twice in customer services. And the salesperson is no longer someone that you can speak to.
00:20:59
Speaker
And the word friend stroke friendly can be a sales technique that can go wrong. So that's when I think the word is ghosted. When the salesperson ghosts you after you've signed the contract, you ain't going to get a second contract signed. Absolutely. And I think sort of what you're you're referring to there. And once again, we've all had it. I had it ever so recently. I'm going through the process of of selling my home. And, you know, we had the old age old thing of building a really great relationship with the estate agent.
00:21:36
Speaker
who was looking at the house we were buying the second things got signed will pass on to someone else and we don't know who that person is and so on so there are people out there who will. Fake a relationship or be quite fraudulent in their their approach.
00:21:53
Speaker
Sometimes it it might not necessarily be a fraudulent approach, it could just be the way that they're wired and they they do have that magpie situation, they move on to the next one. And I think the the word of warning or the word of advice is is is to not be that person. you know I think we all want to do business with someone that will be there to help guide, to look after, to support, to nurture.
00:22:17
Speaker
And if that is the case, then and be that person that is always there. I understand sometimes a company's processes or a company's you know way of operating may be that they then naturally get passed on to someone to take that that relationship further into on board or whatever it is. but If that is the case, that I believe that that salesperson shouldn't leave you know leave that relationship in the dust. They should still be communicating. They should still be talking, which is so easy in the world that we live in through you know some of the tools such as LinkedIn and all the other sort of social selling aspects, really.
Social Media's Role in Relationship Selling
00:22:56
Speaker
I'm pleased that you used the words social selling as well then. How does social selling fit in with relationship selling?
00:23:03
Speaker
Yeah, they social selling and and relationship selling kind of work hand in hand. Now, a lot of ah lot of people have various definitions for social selling. There may be some listeners now that are thinking, what on earth is social selling? and And for me, the easiest way to describe this, and I think especially for the context we're talking about.
00:23:22
Speaker
It's whereby a salesperson or or a sales group or sales team will utilize social media as part of their sales, their sales toolkit. Now, of course, we all know about social media as ah as a marketing tool. We know that you know we can put, let's just say, on the vt base level, a post out on social media, and then hopefully that will draw people into the net. But for me, social selling goes a little bit further.
00:23:50
Speaker
social selling is that tool within your sales toolkit in your toolbox whereby you can day together, you can gather information, gate but you know gather knowledge but once again you can also communicate, speak to your clients and speak to them on a more personal level. Now of course once again I think a lot of people will err towards LinkedIn and they'll think about the LinkedIn connections that they can make and have which is which is absolutely fine and relevant but there are also other platforms where with the right cutting in the right relationship development you can really understand what makes a person tick and allowing you to build a relationship deeper than than than without it so you know a quick example of this when i was once again back selling
00:24:36
Speaker
and One of my earliest jobs selling was selling fine food and ingredients, so we were selling um everything from you know god from you know big boxes of butter, right up to bags of flour, right down to blue piping bags and everything else in between.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I set up, this is when sort of Twitter was quiet in its heyday, um I set up a Twitter account that was all branded for myself but alongside the company I was working for and that generated not only the company a lot of leads, it generated me a lot of leads and I became the the kind of face and voice of the large corporate that I was working for to the point where I was brought up in an AGM meeting without my knowledge to say, you know, this person's out performing our social media platforms, we need to get this individual looking after ours. But what that allowed is, you know, if I was talking to, you know, a chef of a restaurant who was quite hard to get hold of, you know, they they work in the kitchen, the the service times are really, really strict, really fiery.
00:25:36
Speaker
But what did they do during their breaks? What did they do while they were outside getting some air? What were they doing on their split shift? They were on social media. And so I could utilize social media to message, communicate, entice them, develop relationships, understand a bit more about the history of the restaurant, understand a bit more about the history of their their culinary, what's the word I'm looking for, their culinary desires and and and and sort of dreams. And I could then communicate that way. so to come so i've i've deviated massively around your question there michael i do apologize but so when we look no no no it's very interesting i think what you're saying is that social selling yes you can as an individual person or as a corporate but i suspect is more successful as an individual put your messages out there but it's a way of communicating with people
00:26:27
Speaker
in it in a way and a time and a place that they want to be communicated with and it's it allows them to respond to you rather than feeling chased by you if they're constantly getting telephone messages. is Absolutely. Yeah, it just becomes another another little part to it. It becomes another another tool of your of your sales toolkit. But once again, you know, you can find out so much
The Power of Interpersonal Skills in Sales
00:26:52
Speaker
about people. And I always find that when you communicate with people in a buying and sales environment, people's barriers are up. No one wants to be sold to, but we love to buy.
00:27:06
Speaker
And so this is sort of my qualm with when people just deviate straight to LinkedIn, right? They think, right, my company is B2B, so the only platform I want to be on is B2B. Now, last time I checked, and I know you're a user of the platform, so please tell me, I don't think many people go on LinkedIn to buy. They don't use LinkedIn as a shopping platform. They may look for recommendations, they may look for referrals. So when we're constantly trying to be sold to in a non-buying environment, it it's like two magnets, two polar simulators pushing together. Yes, the two north poles of the magnet will not actually come together.
00:27:45
Speaker
Absolutely. But when we start to talk to people in a more of a social setting, in a social environment, when when those barriers are lowered, when those guards are down, when people are a bit more calmer, people are more willing to be receptive and understand the conversation. Of course, there's always a line. You know, we've we've got to understand people's barriers, their boundaries, and we shouldn't always be too pushy, too cozy, too salesy all the time. But we can use that time to develop relationships, to then engage in a sales conversation. So what you're telling me then really is that yes, someone who is expert in relationship selling will have the sales skills to identify what to say to somebody in a sales situation. They will be able to identify when the right time is to ask the closing question. But before they get to all of that, they have to have,
00:28:39
Speaker
quite well refined interpersonal skills to communicate with people just on a human level rather than a commercial level.
Closing Thoughts and Future Engagement
00:28:50
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it it' it's understanding those differences or picking upon those differences and knowing knowing when to so when to listen and when to communicate, when to talk. But then of course, when to sell, which let's not be around the bush is is still very important.
00:29:10
Speaker
It is the reason for having a job title that says salesperson. Yeah. Absolutely. Not just friendship maker. Robert has been really interesting listening to you today. Really do appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.
00:29:32
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the managing director of Abecedah, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind, Rob Spence, who is the managing director, founder of Paragon Sales Solutions. You can find out more about both of us at abecedah.co.uk. There is a link in the description.
00:29:54
Speaker
Another organization that Abbasid has a relationship with, a very successful one is matchmaker.fm. If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests or someone with something very interesting to say, like Rob, then matchmaker.fm is the place where great hosts and great guests come together. There's a link and a membership discount code in the description.
00:30:22
Speaker
that description is going to be really well worth reading. If you've liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere. To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abracida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think. Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.