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Volun-Told - a conversation with Linda Salazar
28 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of the Abecederpodcast The Independent Minds, Bright TrainerLinda Salazar explains being Volun-Told to host Michael Millward.
Linda describes the start of her career in training, and how she has developed her career.
A key reason for Linda’s success has been recognising the times when she has been told to volunteer, what Linda describes as Volun-Told to take new opportunities.
Michael and Linda explore what Volun-Told involves and what it feels like. They discuss ways to welcome that change and how build counter arguments to being Volun-Told.
They also look at how a manager can effectively Volun-Told any employee.
The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr, because as the all-in-one podcasting platform, on which you can create your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms, Zencastr really does make creating content so easy.
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr visit zencastr.com/pricing and use our offer code ABECEDER.
Find out more about both Michael Millward, Linda Salazar at Abeceder.co.uk
Travel
Linda is based in Texas USA. Members of the Ultimate Travel Club, can travel to Texas at trade prices on flights, hotels, trains, package holidays and all sorts of other travel purchases. You can become a member at a discounted price by using my offer code ABEC79 when you join-up.
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Being a Guest
If you would like to be a guest on The Independent Minds, please contact using the link at Abeceder.co.uk.
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Transcript
Introduction and Zencastr Promotion
00:00:05
Speaker
Made on Zencastr. Hello and welcome to The Independent Minds, a series of conversations between Abysida and people who think outside the box about how work works with the aim of creating better workplace experiences for everyone.
00:00:22
Speaker
I am your host, Michael Millward, Managing Director of Abysida. As the jingle at the start of this podcast says, The Independent Minds is made on Zencastr.
00:00:35
Speaker
Zencastr
Introducing Linda Salazar and Travel Discussion
00:00:36
Speaker
is the all-in-one podcasting platform on which you can make your podcast in one place and then distribute it to the major platforms. Zencastr really does make making content so easy.
00:00:50
Speaker
If you would like to try podcasting using Zencastr, visit zencastr.com forward slash pricing and use my offer code, Abysseedah. All the details are in the description.
00:01:03
Speaker
Now that I have told you how wonderful Zencastr is for making podcasts, we should make one. One that will be well worth listening to, liking, downloading and subscribing to.
00:01:15
Speaker
As with every episode of the Independent Minds, we won't be telling you what to think, but we are hoping to make you think. Today, my guest, Independent Mind, who I met at Matchmaker.fm is Linda Salazar, who is a corporate trainer.
00:01:32
Speaker
Linda is based in San Antonio in Texas, which I've got feeling is real cowboy type country, but unfortunately it is not somewhere that I have ever visited.
00:01:44
Speaker
If I do visit, I will be sure to plan my travel with the Ultimate Travel Club, as that is where I can access trade prices on flights, hotels, holidays, and all sorts of other travel related purchases.
00:01:56
Speaker
There's
Linda's Surprising Start in Training
00:01:57
Speaker
a link and a membership discount code in the description. Now that I've paid the mortgage, it is time to make a podcast. Hello, Linda. Hello. Please could we start by yeah you explaining a little bit about your career as ah as a trainer, how you became.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yes. So I was just out of college. i was doing an internship with the city and I got a phone call one day. it was a sales call.
00:02:25
Speaker
And it was from a company that was selling computer training courses. And they were a brand new facility in town. So I'm the receptionist because, you know I'm the intern. I'm taking the calls and doing things like that.
00:02:41
Speaker
And I had been looking for another position. So I had been looking you know for jobs. So when the man mentioned the name of the company, I said, oh, yeah, I've heard of y'all. ah You're looking for trainers. And he goes, yes, we're desperate for trainers. Let me transfer you. And the next thing I knew, was sitting there on hold. I'm like,
Challenges of Linda's First Training Session
00:03:03
Speaker
OK, I didn't say I wanted to be a trainer.
00:03:06
Speaker
And ah the phone picks back up and it's Howard, the training manager. And Howard says, so I heard you want to be a trainer. Come on down tomorrow at five o'clock and bring me your resume. See you then. And he click, he hangs up on me.
00:03:22
Speaker
So I'm sitting there like, um okay, I guess I'll take my resume down there, but I need to explain to them that I don't have a degree in computers. I have never trained anybody on anything. you know i need to explain to them I can't do this job. So I go down there, take my resume, walk up to Howard. Howard snatches the resume out of my hands and says, hands me a little packet of information about Microsoft Word and says, hey, there's your materials. You're going to come in from a test teach at five o'clock on Friday. See you then. And he walks away from me and I'm standing there holding information. I'm like, OK, I didn't know quite what to do.
00:04:04
Speaker
so I went home, went through the information and it was just, you know, how to do like the ultimate basic things in Microsoft Word. So I show up Friday again with the intention to explain to these people that I cannot do this job.
00:04:18
Speaker
And they they call me in. They're sitting at the computers and they're they tell me, OK, Linda, you know, go ahead. We're ready for you. And so I just start telling OK, well, open up Microsoft Word, click here, click there.
00:04:34
Speaker
Now, this is a 10 minute test teach. So everybody sitting there is employees of the company. Now, while I'm talking about five minutes in, I'm starting to get my rhythm like, oh, OK, I can do this.
00:04:48
Speaker
Then a thunderstorm happens and lightning strikes next to the building, shakes the building, cuts the power off. And we're
Finding Passion in Corporate Training
00:04:58
Speaker
sitting in absolute darkness.
00:05:01
Speaker
And I said, we have a problem.
00:05:07
Speaker
The lights come back on Everybody scrambles out of the room to go check the other rooms, the the other classrooms to see that the computers are okay and they're not fried from the lightning. And there's just one lady sitting there and i tell her, well, I guess my test teach is over. And the nice lady says, think so. And I was like, wow.
00:05:29
Speaker
okay, I picked up my stuff and walked out of there like, okay, that was the most random thing. i didn't even want that job.
00:05:39
Speaker
Didn't know why I was standing at the front of the room. And then halfway through, you know, the power gets knocked out. This was obviously some big cosmic joke, right? Yeah, it's not meant to happen, is it really?
00:05:51
Speaker
When all of those sorts of things come together, it's not supposed to be. right That's what I thought. So Monday morning, Howard, the training manager, calls me and he says, Honey Chow, because he called everybody Honey Chow.
00:06:07
Speaker
He says, Honey Chow, you want to come work for me? And I said, OK.
00:06:14
Speaker
the way you do when you're in your 20s and desperately looking for another job and are just like, just get me out of here. I want to work somewhere else. So anyways, that was September of 1996.
00:06:27
Speaker
And I absolutely fell in love with corporate training. I love helping people learn new skills. And I've been doing it in some form fashion since then.
00:06:39
Speaker
So
Behavioral Profiles in Hiring
00:06:40
Speaker
that's almost 30 years. Don't add Michael. Oh. I don't want to know the numbers.
00:06:49
Speaker
It's a long time. It's a long time, but it sounds like it's been a fun time as well. and Yeah. As someone who's been involved in training as well on the corporate scale and externally as well. it's been it's a nice It's a nice career to have, I think, training. No two days are the day are the same, for that's for sure.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It's been a blast. I love it. the I don't want to do anything else. This is my favorite thing to do. and You don't just train people though, you? You sort develop ideas around the way in which skills and knowledge can be gained and the role that that has within essentially making sure that people can be successful at work. And you've done all sorts of things around how behaviors can be learned and how behavior itself should be used.
00:07:41
Speaker
within the hiring process, for example, or this idea of the creating profiles of of behavior and performance? Yes. So I used to work for a behavioral profile company. So the behavioral profiles, um you know, DISC, Myers-Briggs, StrengthsFinder is the hot one right now.
00:08:01
Speaker
um But there's a bunch of these different, you know, kind of personality, who are you, you know, type of assessments out there. And they all have their own kind of niche of of how they're used and what they're good for.
00:08:15
Speaker
Well, I've worked for this one company that their niche was using it for business. hiring And i was like, really, I didn't know you could do that. And the other assessments are not created for that.
00:08:31
Speaker
um So you you can't use them for hiring. But
Integrating Skills for Success
00:08:34
Speaker
this one was set up and and approved and everything to be used for hiring purposes. So what I learned and is there are behavioral profiles that are better suited to certain jobs.
00:08:48
Speaker
um Like for me, where I'm a big extrovert, I would not be a good librarian. Even though I love books, um I would be talking about books all day. The people in the library would be shushing me. Okay, so I'm not a good fit for librarian, but I'm a great fit for trainer. Right.
00:09:06
Speaker
So they they built all these behavioral profiles to fit for certain jobs. And it's it's like building up a profile of of the skills and the knowledge and the behaviors which will make somebody successful in a job.
00:09:22
Speaker
Well, their profile was just your um behavioral profile. So my part then was skills. Okay, you've hired somebody who is a good fit for the role. Let me make sure they have the skills because...
00:09:38
Speaker
um even if their behaviors are are you know great for the role, if they don't know how to use Microsoft Excel and they're gonna be an analyst, well, that's gonna be a problem. So they need to take my class, they need to you know learn how to work Microsoft Excel really well, and then they're gonna really enjoy that kind of work and they're gonna be very successful in it. Yes, there's a lot of logic to that.
00:10:00
Speaker
And it's one of those things that has been used time and time again. without anybody really realizing there is the story that I tell of London taxi drivers, the black cab drivers.
00:10:10
Speaker
They all have to do the knowledge, which is the streets ah around, streets, cafes, restaurants, hotels, all sorts of things within central London. So that is an exam that they pass. and They spend a long time training to learn the knowledge.
00:10:27
Speaker
The skill that they need is the ability to drive. Now, if you know your way around London, but you can't drive, you can't be a taxi driver. You can be a walking guide, you could be a post office, postal delivery person, a courier, all sorts of things, but unless you can drive, you can't be a taxi driver.
00:10:47
Speaker
But the behavior that you need in order to be a London taxi driver is that ability to get on instantly with people, to make their journey fun, to chat with people and and be a little bit of sunshine in their day.
00:11:03
Speaker
If you don't like people, but you know your way around London and you can drive, but you don't like people, then you shouldn't be a taxi driver. You should be a delivery driver instead and deal with parcels.
00:11:17
Speaker
But if
Understanding 'Voluntold' Experiences
00:11:18
Speaker
you've got those three things, the skill to drive, the knowledge of the streets, shops, hotels, restaurants, bars, pubs, all those sorts things in London, and you like people, then you have the combination of three attributes that will make you successful as a London taxi driver.
00:11:34
Speaker
An interesting way in which trainers can bring all of those things together to create a successful career for someone else. one of the other things that you've done as well, I think, is looked at a concept of, well, it's called voluntold, which is and similar sort of thing in that people who don't necessarily see themselves in a job, somebody else does see themselves in that job. So it's then...
00:12:04
Speaker
that combination of, so select we're trying to encourage you to volunteer for this training program or this this course or this new opportunity, but we're trying to make sure that you volunteer rather than being told to do it.
00:12:18
Speaker
Explain a little bit around that, please. Yes. So... um I first used the term voluntold when I was talking about the the people that would come to me when I was working in different companies.
00:12:33
Speaker
And they would run to my desk, Linda, Linda, Linda, they're making me train. And I don't know anything about training. And they would be very upset and very sure that they could not do this.
00:12:46
Speaker
And I I, of course, everywhere I go, I'm the trainer lady. So they come to the trainer lady and complain about this. So I tell them, it's okay, I'm going to help you.
00:12:57
Speaker
And I assured them, look, your boss would not have assigned you to do this. If you didn't have, you know, the knowledge to do this, your their your boss is coming to you instead of me because you know what you're training.
00:13:13
Speaker
um You know the information already. It's just a matter of you need some help with how to convey the information, how to make sure that the knowledge transfer happens.
00:13:24
Speaker
And so I would work with them one on one and say, OK, well, let's go through the steps. OK, you know, what's all this training about and what's the information and. give them some tips on here's how to actually get the the i concepts across, the ideas across, and then here's how to give them some practice with it.
00:13:46
Speaker
And then, you know, they're on their merry way. And then I would, you know, I would practice with them and help them a little bit, give them a little bit of confidence. And off they went and they would go,
00:13:58
Speaker
train their their fellow employees on a new software update or a new process change or, you know, whatever whatever they had been voluntold to train on But yeah, i had to reassure them, like, there's a reason you were voluntold.
00:14:14
Speaker
ah into this and and you can do it. And that's kind of the the main thing. But yeah, sometimes it's somebody else seeing something in you, like my training manager, Howard, who hired me, um you know, very young, just fresh out of college, I think, maybe two years out of college. So very, very young,
00:14:36
Speaker
no background in computers, no background in training or teaching anything, um just said, ah, she'll probably work out.
00:14:48
Speaker
It'll probably work out.
Michael's 'Voluntold' Story
00:14:49
Speaker
What you mean is that Howard saw in you someone who could be a trainer yeah and knew that he could give you the the skills and knowledge to be able to be it, but you needed that personality, the behavior traits to be a trainer.
00:15:04
Speaker
Yes. And it's so ironic because my previous boss, um when I worked at the the city, I had to do very boring data entry and very boring um AP work that I didn't like. And so every chance I got, I would stand up and I'd go walk to somebody else's office and I would go talk with them and they would ask, you know, questions or whatever. And I would be telling them stuff.
00:15:29
Speaker
And my boss would go find me and put me back in my chair. And she, she would tell me, Linda, if you get up again, I'm going duct tape you to that chair. You've got to stay in your chair and do your work. And I'm like, yeah, but that's not fun. I like to walk around and talk to people.
00:15:44
Speaker
And she, I remember she used to tell me, Linda, if you found a job where they paid you to walk around all day and talk to people, you'd make a million dollars. Have you made a million dollars then?
00:15:56
Speaker
so I'm working on my million dollars.
00:16:00
Speaker
I should point out with my ah HR professionals hat on that duct taping your employees to their chair is not a good idea. Not a good idea. But this was a long time ago and we didn't have very many rules back then.
00:16:17
Speaker
This is true. How, what are the signs that somebody should look for that What would tell them that they're being voluntold, that they're going through a voluntolding process? What would be the signs?
00:16:28
Speaker
So usually you've been voluntold when, and this is the most common situation, the boss will come and say, hey, we have this new thing we need to do.
00:16:39
Speaker
ah There's a new project or or something like that. um Who would like to volunteer? And then crickets you know nobody wants to volunteer for this particular thing then the boss volun-tells somebody you're doing it and that's how you've been volun-told you were supposed it was supposed to be somebody volunteering for the role but you you've been assigned basically but it's you know they're trying to say it nicely you've been volun-told
00:17:11
Speaker
You made me think about, from what you were saying, about this the situations where it had happened to me. So my career, for example, I was called into the ah HR director's office one day and they said, Michael, we need to set up and a training function.
00:17:26
Speaker
So thought, that's interesting, yeah. you try to set up a set up a training function yeah he said we need someone with these types of characteristics you know and he reeled off this list of of some characters what make a good trainer and it was of like as i heard them being read out to me so like he means me he means me He means me. And it was sort of like backing me into a corner of, you know, this is why you'd be good at this job.
00:17:58
Speaker
but This is why you could take this on and and make it work. And I got the, yeah, yeah. And then the expression that he used was like, you know, if I had had this opportunity when I was your age at your stage in your career, I would have grasped it with both hands.
00:18:16
Speaker
And he's thinking, you're not me, you're not my age, you know, all this sort of stuff. It did feel backed into a corner, but backed into a corner in such a way that there was the only way to come to come out of the corner was to say yes i'll i'll do it i'll take it on and then also one of the other things that he said was like i've got three people in this department that could take this job on yes right one of them would not be any good at it all and doesn't want to do it because they know they wouldn't be any good at it at all i know who that person is and then the other one was um
00:18:53
Speaker
The other person could do it, but they wouldn't be very successful at it because they haven't got the patience to really do it well. And it's like, oh, he means he means I'm the only patient person.
00:19:04
Speaker
Oh, never mind. And another one was, you know, Michael, as ah HR people, when we look at some of our employees, we see their problems. you You, always see the potential. You always see the good side in people.
00:19:17
Speaker
You always see what people are capable of. That makes you an ideal training person. And we need a training function. So
Volunteering for Growth and Learning
00:19:25
Speaker
what do you think? And it's like, oh, leave me alone.
00:19:29
Speaker
Ha ha.
00:19:32
Speaker
I was voluntold and there were all sorts of... He must have spent days, if not weeks, working out all the various different things he was going to say that would press all of my right buttons in the right way that would make me think that, yeah, this is... this is this is worth doing i could do this and then realize what am i taking on but it was a great i i was very successful i'm very successful at ah training and lots of people like the way in which i do it so um he saw something in me that uh that told him it would work
00:20:08
Speaker
What happens what would be your advice to someone who's faces that type of situation and really doesn't want to be voluntold into something that they don't want to do? What would be your advice to get out, how somebody could get out of that situation?
00:20:23
Speaker
ha um So to get out of it, ah what I do is kind of a there's a couple of things you can use the, well, how could I do that?
00:20:36
Speaker
And then you're kind of putting the onus back on the volun-teller like, um you know, how how am how am I supposed to do this? You know, give me everything I need to to to know and and do Another thing that I use is like if I have, you know, a lot of stuff on my plate and I'm being voluntold to do something that I know I don't have enough you know, time, time to do I'll just reply, Oh, okay, great.
00:21:10
Speaker
So which of these other things I'm working on, do you want to take over for me or to delegate to someone else so I can have time? And a lot of times they're like, Oh no, those three things need to get done. I'm like, well, okay, then I'm going to do them and you can have somebody else do this other thing that you're trying to get me to do. Yeah.
00:21:30
Speaker
Yeah, ah I think an awful lot of what you're describing is you have to be able to to know what it is you want in your career from that job.
00:21:42
Speaker
And if you don't, then you are probably more likely to be susceptible to being voluntold. Because I don't know about you, but I seem to meet an awful lot of people who are in a job And other people will look at that job and go, oh, that's a career.
00:21:59
Speaker
You're in a career. But if you say to someone, so what is your career plan? They don't know what it is. They haven't thought about what their career plan is. Because I haven't thought about it and agreed it with themselves, you know, this is what I want to be doing when I retire. This is how I am planned to get there. These are the steps I'm going to take, the different types of roles that I'm going to be looking for.
00:22:22
Speaker
until they've worked that out for themselves, they can't share that with other people. And if they don't have something of a vision for their career of what they want, then, and they can't share it with other people, then they're not going to be able to put themselves in the situation where they'll be voluntold to do the things that fit with their career career plan or be able to withdraw from a situation where someone else is trying to voluntold them to do something.
00:22:52
Speaker
when it doesn't fit with their career plan and they've got that, like you say, you this is what I've got on the plate at the moment. This is what I'm working towards. your I'm on a straight road to my career success, my vision.
00:23:05
Speaker
You're asking me to to turn left or to turn right. And where does that then take us? Where does that take you as an organization when we've previously organized what my career is going to look like?
00:23:17
Speaker
Some of the antidote to this is to look for opportunities that interest you and go volunteer and even advocate for yourself. um I had a situation where i was on a team and our boss decided we needed somebody to back up the business grammar and writing instructor.
00:23:38
Speaker
And so he, you know, put it out to the team. Okay. I need one of you to volunteer. to learn that class so that you can teach it. you know Every one of our classes, we need you know a main lead trainer and we need ah a backup.
00:23:53
Speaker
Well, nobody wanted to do it, but I did. i would have loved to have done that. That would have been fantastic for me. loved the training. Yeah, the time, I jumped at the chance.
00:24:03
Speaker
But at the time, um I was still doing just software training, Microsoft Office and you know, whatever other software they needed me to train. That's what I was doing. And he said, no, Linda, this is more a soft skills class. This isn't, there's no computers in this class. And I said, no, that's okay.
00:24:19
Speaker
ah speaking I speak English. I can do it. And he, he, he just absolutely refused me. And so he put it out to the team again. Okay, come on, somebody, I need somebody to to do this backup. And of course I raised my hand again.
00:24:36
Speaker
no, really, I can do, put me in coach, I'm ready to play, you know, and he finally acquiesced and said, well, okay, and, and he just let me, so I went, I sat through the class, learned the class, talked with the instructor, um and then I went and Did the class myself. I delivered the class.
00:25:01
Speaker
um I did not do a good job. I made a lot of mistakes. And afterwards, of course, my boss hears about it and he's like, hey, swing and a miss, kid. It's OK. You can't be great at everything.
00:25:14
Speaker
And I said, oh, no, no, I'm not going out like that. I know what I did wrong. I can fix it. Put me back in And he said, Linda, no, like you already tried. I let you try.
00:25:27
Speaker
and I said, no, no, I can do it. I can do it. So he puts it out to the rest of the team. Hey, we need somebody to back up the business grammar and writing instructor. Again, everybody turns him down flat. They absolutely refuse to do it.
00:25:40
Speaker
And I'm there, you know, on the side. Come on, me, me, me, me with my hand up, you know. And finally, he's like, well, okay, nobody else wants to do it here, Linda, you do it. I went in, I did it better.
00:25:51
Speaker
And every time I did it, I got better. And after a while, I was actually leading that class, leading other soft skills class, getting into executive leadership development and doing that sort of training.
00:26:04
Speaker
I was running the new employee orientation. ah class but none of that would have happened if I hadn't voluntold myself to to do that first non-computer class.
00:26:17
Speaker
That's
Recognizing and Seizing Opportunities
00:26:18
Speaker
a really interesting way of looking at it. First of all, I think that your manager was very brave to say no to you. He
00:26:28
Speaker
was a veteran. he had He had seen combat. He could handle me.
00:26:36
Speaker
But this idea as well that you know other people can volunteer us to do things, but we also can volunteer ourselves to do things, put ourselves forward, put ourselves into those awkward situations, but actually just believing that, yes, I can learn how to do this. Yes, I can do this.
00:26:56
Speaker
Even in the face of other people telling us that we can't, I think it's not always a negative thing. It's just simply that what we have to be aware of is when we're being blown told by someone else.
00:27:09
Speaker
And that's not necessarily a bad thing because, you know, somebody is identifying something in us that is a strength that we might not have noticed, but at the same time,
00:27:20
Speaker
We often know that we have the capability, we have the strength to do something that other people haven't recognized yet. And
Conclusion and Future Episodes
00:27:30
Speaker
have to volunteer ourselves and volunteer the decision maker as well, that we can do what they need to have done.
00:27:38
Speaker
They just need to have a little bit of confidence in us and allow us to make the mistakes because we will eventually get to the point where we want to be because There is no bigger motivator than wanting something and probably being told that you can't have it. Oh, yeah. It makes you want it all the more. Yeah.
00:28:00
Speaker
yeah But I was just lucky that nobody else on the team would touch it with a 10-foot pole.
00:28:08
Speaker
But that that, again, is almost like people other people recognizing somebody else wants to do it something. Let them have a go. Yes. And at the time I was, you know, the junior member of the team, I was the youngest person on the team and all of them were much more established and had, you know, their repertoire of classes that they were used to, to leading. And yeah I've really enjoyed our conversation today. It's been very interesting. This idea of voluntold is something, although I have experienced it, I've never
00:28:44
Speaker
been able to give it a name before and now that i do think i'm slightly more aware of those circumstances where i might be voluntold and also those times as well when i might volun tell somebody to do something as well or try to try to but for the for the time being i'm sure we will come back and have more conversations linda but for the time being thank you very much for your time it's been really fun and very interesting thank you very much Oh, well, this has been great, Michael. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been pleasure.
00:29:18
Speaker
I am Michael Millward, the Managing Director of Abbasida, and I have been having a conversation with the independent mind that is Linda Salazar, who is saving the world from bad training one class at a time.
00:29:32
Speaker
You can find out more about both of us at abbasida.co.uk. I must remember to thank the team at matchmaker.fm. for introducing me to Linda.
00:29:43
Speaker
If you are a podcaster looking for interesting guests, or if like Linda, you have something very interesting to say, matchmaker.fm is where matches of great hosts and even greater guests are made.
00:29:55
Speaker
There's a link to matchmaker.fm and an offer code in the description. If you are listening to the independent minds on your smartphone, you may like to know that 3.0 has the UK's fastest 5G network with unlimited data.
00:30:10
Speaker
So listening on 3.0 means you can wave goodbye to buffering. There is a link in the description that will take you to more information about business and personal telecom solutions from 3.0 and the special offers available when you quote my referral code.
00:30:25
Speaker
That all adds up to making sure that the description is well worth reading. If you have liked this episode of The Independent Minds, please give it a like and download it so that you can listen anytime, anywhere.
00:30:38
Speaker
To make sure you don't miss out on future episodes, please subscribe. Remember, the aim of all the podcasts produced by Abbasida is not to tell you what to think, but we do hope to make you think.
00:30:51
Speaker
Until the next episode of The Independent Minds, thank you for listening and goodbye.