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Before Guardians of the Galaxy, James Gunn directed another superhero film called Super. In this episode, Perry and guest Amit Srivastava dive into this 2010 film starring Rainn Wilson, Elliot Page, and Kevin Bacon. If you're expecting Gunn's usual level of quality, this may not be quite the film for you, but it led to an interesting discussion.
Listen to Amit on the D54 podcast
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Transcript
Brainstorming a Sidekick Duo
00:00:15
Speaker
Hey, Frank. I told the diner that I had pneumonia. You sure it's OK if I stay here? Yeah. I want to show you something.
00:00:51
Speaker
So what do you think? Cartwheels. Well, you see, you see what I'm getting at here. No. Batman had Robin. The original human torch had Doral. The Flash had Kid Flash. What could be your kid's sidekick? How old are you? Well, I'm 22, you know. But compared to you, I'm a one. I'm a kid, right?
00:01:14
Speaker
Right. Now, look, the most important thing, obviously, is the name, all right? Then you got to think of it like how it sounds with the Crimson Bolt, all right? So, um... Okay. The Crimson Bolt... and Bolt Girl. The Crimson Bolt... and Kid Crimson. The Crimson Bolt...
00:01:41
Speaker
and the creeping bam. What's a creeping bam? What's a Toro?
Introduction to Amit Shrivastava
00:01:47
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. Welcome to a new guest today and a fellow podcaster and that's Amit Shrivastava. How are you doing today, Amit? Hey, good man, how are you? I'm doing good. So before we get started with the movie, first thing is I like the, especially a new guest for the audience to get to know him a little bit. So why don't you tell people a little bit about yourself?
00:02:09
Speaker
Yeah, so we have a podcast as well, so along those sort of similar lines, movie podcasts, not necessarily superheroes, but sort of just the whole gamut of sort of movies, tracking a bit of superhero stuff, some sort of new contemporary stuff, some older stuff, some old favorites, and yes, international stuff as well. So we're pretty new.
00:02:31
Speaker
trying to figure out what sort of space we both will be sort of all like. It's myself, my mate Dennis and my mate Sunny. So we just sort of jump on on a weekly basis and chat movies. So it's been about, I think about four months now and we just had a hell of a time with it. So looking forward to do more of it. And what's the name of the podcast?
Origin of D54 Podcast Name
00:02:51
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's probably a good idea. The podcast is D54.
00:02:57
Speaker
Find out, yeah, on whatever podcast players they say. Spotify, Apple. Curious, where did you guys get that name from?
00:03:05
Speaker
So my friend Dennis, so I think we had another name before and that name was taken on, I think it was taken on Spotify or whatever it was. So then we, he had this name, he had these numbers, he had this number 54 and this letter D following him around. It's kind of weird. He sort of had this combination of D54 and we're just like, all right, well, that sounds cool. It's kind of mysterious. It's probably not going to be taken.
00:03:30
Speaker
We did that and then I think, yeah, we just sort of ran with it. We sort of wanted to have a name that's kind of loose-ended, so it's not like, you know, movie podcasts or something like that. In case we wanted to sort of venture into something else, like D54, I don't know, history or something like that, you know, because they're off-branded. So having a name that's quite open-ended, let's just sort of do that.
00:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's pretty easy to find. It's short. As short as you can get to type into something. Yeah, it's interesting name.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, I had that experience when I was thinking of a name for this show, because I think I wanted to go with like the superhero movie podcast or something, and it was taken.
Amit's History with Superheroes
00:04:10
Speaker
And I think that podcast actually isn't even active anymore. But then I chose this name instead. So why don't you, so, you know, we talked about superhero movies and all that. So what's kind of your history with superhero movies? How did you get interested in them or in superheroes in general, anything like that?
00:04:31
Speaker
That's taking me back. So yeah, I wasn't a big comic by a guy growing up. So it wasn't a comic introduction. It was more probably just, you know, TV cartoons, I would say, actually, to begin with, at the start. So, you know, the old X-Men series, you know, the old one, and then the ones that had to follow up on those ones, like Spider-Man, Iron Man.
00:04:54
Speaker
All the cutscenes that used to come out and then you know in the early I guess what I guess late 90s early 2000s I think X-Men was a series that really gripped me in general like that old you know Hugh Jackman series basically they were the ones that really got me and I used to check on Batman every now and then Superman but I always like sort of the Marvel stuff a bit more.
00:05:12
Speaker
to follow that along. And then, you know, I started to get an appetite of just like enjoying superhero and superhero like movies. I guess I don't know if you'd classify this is a superhero movie in a way, but this sort of particular kind of movie also interested me like that. The moral questions are sort of asks. I sort of like that part of it as well, because X-Men was all about, you know,
00:05:33
Speaker
the mutants and how we treat them. And it's kind of a metaphor for the Cold War and stuff like that. So I saw, I saw sort of how they sort of combined personal and, you know, I guess, personal issues with social issues. And that became more and more apparent. And I like that portrayal of, you know, society and stuff like that. So I was like, OK, cool. So Rajanga is more about, you know, oh, it's cool to dress up like a superhero. Later on, I became like, all right, these are some pretty cool concepts.
00:05:59
Speaker
Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure we're about the same age. And I think most people in our generation came into it the same way. Like I came in through through X-Men and Batman the Endgame series. And I think most people of our generation probably got into superheroes in much the same way, because that was, you know, that was what we had growing up. We were, you know, every Saturday morning or whatever, you'd have the X-Men and all that stuff.
00:06:21
Speaker
Exactly right. Yeah. It was exactly that. I think, yeah, just wake up and watch cartoons and X-Men. It'd be like, you know, like, you know, we are most likely the same age. Yeah. It wouldn't be like, oh yeah, check on Netflix and binge roles. Right. Literally be like, this is Saturday. I'm watching this and wake up in like six or seven o'clock on a Saturday and, you know, running out of the TV and parents are still asleep and all that. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Check it out and be like, whoa, that was amazing. And then wait a whole week to watch the next one.
00:06:51
Speaker
And then always having to, I remember having to record, um, whenever something was going on on a Saturday, it's like, Oh, shit. I got to make sure I record everything. So it's like, had to record the whole morning block. Speaking of that, I remember, um, that's taking me back a bit. Like I used to like, when I used to go to school, I used to record like, um, this is not really, it is kind of super hard, but I used to record Dragon Ball Z in the morning because it was too early for me to wake up and watch because that's cool. Yeah.
00:07:16
Speaker
So I'd record it, but then some days I'd wake up earlier to watch it still. So I'd do the same way. I'd record it. I'd watch it in the morning. I'd come home and watch it again in the afternoon. So yeah, no, I've always loved this sort of genre. Yeah. I remember when, um, yeah, when I was a kid, Dragon Ball Z, it was on, it was only on Saturday mornings, but it was only on at like six o'clock in the morning. So I had to get up earlier than the regular cartoon block to watch it.
00:07:41
Speaker
Another thing I've started doing now is kind of talking about what kind of stuff you're into, like media-wise, like movies or TVs or comic books or anything. What are you reading? What are you watching? What are you playing right now that's kind of got your interest?
Current Media Interests
00:07:56
Speaker
So right now, yeah, so it is mostly just some stuff that's preparing me for my podcast mostly. So but that's really been that's been good because I got to look at stuff like, you know, some sort of international stuff. Some movies are like, you know, my, like some of my friends, Dennis is his favorite movies has got a minty into some of his stuff, which he knows. Other than that, yeah, I listened to a lot of history stuff as well. So I like my history.
00:08:16
Speaker
I've started getting into comic books, which is pretty funny. Kind of feels weird for a guy in his mid thirties to sort of pick up a comic book. It's never too late. Yeah, exactly. I think it was actually two more podcasts because it was my mate, Sonny, I think for the Thor movie, he's like, I'm going to read the comic books. And I was like, all right, cool. And he started getting into it. And he told me how amazing the comics were in that. And obviously, I was not a fan of that movie. I don't know what you thought about that one. Are you talking about Love and Thunder?
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, I enjoyed it. It wasn't as good as Ragnarok, but you know, I still thought it was fun.
00:08:50
Speaker
Right, okay. I really didn't like it. I think I disliked it even more because after Sunny had told me about how good the comic book series was and how complex the God Butcher character was, I was like, oh wow, okay. So these guys really did a disservice here by making this really short and sort of not expanding his whole profile because it was crazy. And I was like, wow, this sounds really good. And Dennis was a comic book fan.
00:09:19
Speaker
you know, growing up. So he had all these references and everything like that. So I was like, all right, cool. Let me give it a little try. So I've just been getting into some comic books, which has been pretty interesting, pretty fun. It's nice to sort of explore these worlds in a different way. And it's a different medium. Like I used to, you know, I still do read quite a bit, but comics is just a whole different way of seeing things. So, you know, these big worlds coming together and everything. So since you mentioned Gore, I'm guessing that you're looking at the Jason Aaron Thor run. Any other comic book stuff that has drawn your interest?
00:09:49
Speaker
So I, cause I really was just like, what, how can I get into this in those easiest way? Because when I was like looking at it, I'm like, okay, so there's this character here and I want to read a comic about him and I look up, you
Navigating Comic Book Histories
00:10:01
Speaker
know, comic about him and I see like comics spanning from like, you know, like Park Panther, it'd be like from the sixties to like now, where do I even start with this? Um, you know, so there's a lot of sort of education and learning around that side of things. So I'm just really.
00:10:14
Speaker
I'm just sort of like, right now, because I'm still thinking of Marvel just because it's close to home, I do want to expand beyond that, to sort of, you know, understand storytelling beyond just sort of what Marvel have done. But for now, like, I'll sort of look at a character, I'll try and just go through their profile a little bit. So I think I was sadder to watch the She-Hulk show. So I read the comic books upon that one, because let me see what it's about. And I really enjoyed that She-Hulk comic.
00:10:40
Speaker
I'll just sort of read that, I think it's the marvelous She-Hulk or something like that, which is pretty, it's pretty cool. It's pretty funny. It's a very, very fourth world, which I didn't expect, which is cool. So that's how I'm doing it right now. But really, I don't have any sort of structure because the challenge I have is like, I'm like, well, I want to read about like, you know,
00:11:01
Speaker
Like I said, I want to read about Daredevil and I want to read about Black Panther. I want to read about, you know, Black Widow. I want to read about all these characters. How do I even start with like and how do we don't get the time to do all of this? Yeah.
00:11:12
Speaker
So I'm just like, let me just pick one, read it a little bit, and then move on. And then don't get so tested the entire saga. Once I find whoever you like in the story, I really resonate with, go deep into that character. Because, yeah. It can be tough with Marvel because they do have the continuity stretching back decades. And they've had so many different titles being canceled, titles being relaunched, titles being rebooted. And so it can be a little bit
00:11:39
Speaker
confusing and try to make your way through it, especially because they're not always.
00:11:43
Speaker
it's not always clear just from like the, especially if you're going through the graphic novels, just like what border they all come in. So it can be a little challenging, I know that. And I find it, like I find it like when you're there sometimes, like you just have a character to pop up and you're just like, who the heck is this? And you kind of, luckily because I know a little bit about Marvel, like I at least associate to be like, oh yeah, cool. I've heard of this character, I've seen this character in somewhere else. But otherwise, if I'm just reading it straight up, I'm like,
00:12:11
Speaker
the whole like in every issue there's a new character coming up and you know there's not much storytelling on that character itself it's kind of like want to learn more can we look at that comic you know so yeah that was a that was a big way especially in the older days how they would um how they would get you know people interested in these other titles and these other characters they'd have them pop up in other books like that um and uh if you're the dc stuff is i think maybe
00:12:37
Speaker
Because DC has a lot of stuff that's out of continuity as well. So it might be easier to follow some stuff like that. But at the same time, they've also got their own continuity, which can be kind of confusing because they've had like different reboots and stuff throughout time. But it's um, yeah, it's cool.
00:12:55
Speaker
the the reddit there there are reddit forums for uh for marvel comics and dc comics and a lot of them i think i'm pretty sure they both have like wikis like start here guides or something like that or you can post in there saying like you know i'm interested in so-and-so character and people can get will give you some recommendations so those are good resources as well you might want to check out
00:13:14
Speaker
Yeah, no, I might do that. Because like friends, when the movie comes out, like like the next Black Panther movie comes out, I want to know a little bit about sort of how this all connects. And because I find like it's quite different, like the MCU is quite different to the comic book. Yeah. World all together. So it's not like I saw like I have to it's not necessary to read it. But sometimes I think like the comic books tell stories a little bit better in some ways. Well, he's what I'm telling at least from the She-Hulk series. It's doing a really good job of telling, you know, exploring this character.
00:13:43
Speaker
I mean, yeah, it one of the things I like about Marvel is that it does because, you know, the comic characters have gone through so many changes and, you know, we're going back decades. What the what the MCU does really well is I think it kind of distills that kind of purist essence of the character into one thing. It makes it work for that. Like, you know, yeah.
00:14:04
Speaker
Robert Downey Jr's Iron Man is different in a lot of ways from just like regular demeanor, regular personality from the Tony Stark in the comics, but it does have that same kind of essence, right? That's kind of like the purest essence of Tony Stark is just distilled in that. Same thing with Chris Evans' Captain America, right? That's just kind of like the purest essence of Cap, but it's also got, you know, Evans' interpretation of it and Downey's interpretation of it, adding a little bit of an extra spin to it.
00:14:33
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. It's sort of a one-to-one relationship, I guess. They have a lot of creativity from the studio, from the actors, all that sort of involved. Yeah. It's been a good journey. If anyone's visiting and wants to sort of get into comics, I'd definitely recommend it, because it is a little apprehensive to be like, man, I'm like a great-ass man walking into a comic store. Well, also, if you're worried about doing that, you can also just go on and get the digital comics, too.
00:15:01
Speaker
Correct. Yeah, I've done a bit of that as well with this iPad, but just reading it on that. But yeah, it's nice reading both, you know, digital version and actual physical copy as well. But yeah, man, they're pretty expensive, like far out, like, luckily, like, so I just go to, like, someone else recommended me to go to a, just go to the local library and borrow this.
00:15:22
Speaker
I was like, this is perfect. Because yeah, it's what you have to start when you don't really know what you want to read. I want to invest like, you know, 70 bucks into a comic book that I don't even know if I'm even into or not. I'll just go to the library and pick up a couple and just read them and return them when I can.
00:15:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I do all digital now because I just, I've told the story before, but when my parents downsized a few years ago, like all my comics were still at their place. So I had to like get rid of them all because no way could I ship them all back to Japan.
00:15:53
Speaker
And, you know, homes here aren't very big. And so like, I mean, if you could, if I if I showed you a camera around this room, you'd see just how cluttered my office is right now. There's no space for physical books. Like the only physical books I have anymore are textbooks for my classes. Everything else is just I'm all digital now because of that. But one of the nice things is that
00:16:14
Speaker
you know, Comixology, now Amazon is, they have tons of sales on these stuff. So like, it's like, you're talking about She-Hulk, they just finished a She-Hulk sale and it was like, you could get the, a lot of the books, the, and I'm talking the graphic novels, which have like, you know,
00:16:31
Speaker
four to six issues in each volume, more like two, three bucks a pop. So, yeah, so that's one. And they also have the Comixology Unlimited program, which is a subscription service. It's like seven to 10 bucks a month. And then there's a lot of like Marvel stuff, a lot of DC stuff that you can read for free through that as part of that subscription program.
Digital Comics Discussion
00:16:51
Speaker
And then there's also Marvel has their Marvel Unlimited program. DC has their DC Universe app, I think it's called.
00:17:01
Speaker
Some issues with those, but those are also subscription services that are pretty cheap that gives you a chance to kind of explore a bunch of different things. So those are some other options too if you're interested in the digital side of things.
00:17:13
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen the Marvel Unlimited one. That's sort of what I've gone for references. Yeah, there's some issues with that. I got like an iPad, which works really well. The iPad A, I think Generation 1. It's not compatible with the app. Yeah. I'm not going to buy a new iPad when this one's still working. Yeah. I had the same issue. Mine was a Generation 2, and it was starting to show its age recently, especially because the only things I'd use it for is I'd use it
00:17:42
Speaker
like for streaming streaming stuff, like when I'm like doing stuff around the kitchen or something like that, like I had the iPad open, I'd be streaming stuff and I'd use it for comics and that was it and I wouldn't use it for anything else. But the streaming services now are basically all could put on it. And so it was just the comics and then Comixology updated their app.
00:18:00
Speaker
and that killed it pretty much. But I did get, so I've replaced it with the Kindle Fire Plus because for Prime Day, it was on sale for like 50 bucks or something like that. So if you're just using it for like comics or something like that, the Kindle is a really good one to use. It's a low cost tablet.
00:18:24
Speaker
So I've got an old Kindle. Is this black and white? Is it the same kind of thing? No, that's a Kindle e-reader. You can get comics on that, but they're not going to be in color. If you want the full comics experience, it's really good to get the regular one. And I don't think the apps and stuff like that, like Marvel Unlimited, DC, they won't work on that anyway.
00:18:46
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah. OK. That makes sense. Yeah. I'm not going to read it on this black and white food. Yeah. No, no. You know, when I've seen the book, it's amazing graphics and stuff like that. It's like, it's going to be kind of crap. I mean, if you're reading the black and white comic, if you're reading like manga or something like that, it'd be fine. But if you want to read if you want to read like the color comics, you really want to get the full effect. You really got to get with a regular backlit tablet.
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah. But anyway, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, anything I do to help more people get into comics because it's it's an industry that always needs more readers. So I'm always happy
Introducing Film 'Super' by James Gunn
00:19:21
Speaker
to help with that. But anyway, today we are talking about 2010 Super, which was probably James Gunn's first superhero movie. And this was, you know, pre Guardians of the Galaxy James Gunn. This is when he was still doing like R rated horror movies and that kind of stuff.
00:19:38
Speaker
And I had heard of this movie over the years and it was sitting on my Hulu, in my Hulu list for like, you know, years. It was sitting in there, my watch list. And then sure enough, I canceled Hulu like about a year ago and then you come on and ask it to be on the show to talk about it. So then I got to figure out a way to track it down without resubscribing the Hulu. But anyway, what was your history with this film? When did you first get introduced to it?
00:20:06
Speaker
Oh man, I had seen this, yeah, probably around about when it came out, I think, obviously I didn't see the cinema or anything like that. So probably when it came out to DVD or whatever it was, sort of found out a way to watch it then, but I couldn't really remember it all that well, but I do remember it was a superhero movie and I had just, I was looking at sort of these directors and their origins to superhero movies. Cause I'd recently on a podcast, we recently did,
00:20:32
Speaker
Darkman by Sam Raimi. Oh, yeah. And that was sort of that was sort of his origins. Yes, I think it was to this, you know, before we started the post-Spider-Man universe. I mean, it was his first superhero stuff, but obviously had done the Evil Dead stuff before that. Yeah, yeah. He doesn't know. He's being pretty accomplished, you know, I guess.
00:20:53
Speaker
I'm doing what's called indie. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Very, very, very indie, very kind of kind of low budget. That was kind of his current allows. That was his gem. But yes, I wanted to see, you know, you know, James Gunn's now become, you know, one of the bigger superhero directors. I know, especially with his kinds of galaxy series and all that. And I really enjoy those as well. So it's like peacemaker, which we covered that. Yeah. Did an episode in that recently, too.
00:21:17
Speaker
Yeah, piecemaker and also the other one, right? He did the suicide squad. Yeah. Yeah. So it was starting to get a name for all this stuff. So I was like, okay, let me revisit this. Cause I literally had no, I couldn't remember much of it until I started saying, until I started seeing rain Wilson in the suit and some of the stuff. And some of the memories triggered back, but I couldn't remember the story much.
00:21:36
Speaker
So I was like, okay, let me give this another go and see how we sort of run with this, you know, on a sort of second watch. So that's kind of my history too. It wasn't too deep, but I thought it'd be interesting to do because I do like that genre of movies where it's kind of like superhero, but they have no powers. So definitely it did remind me of a few other movies you can touch on as well, which are similar in their kind of, you know, nature.
00:22:02
Speaker
Right. Well, I think the biggest comparison would obviously be kick ass, which this got a lot of comparisons to at the time because kick ass came out, I think.
00:22:11
Speaker
About the same year. Yeah, the same year the kick-ass came out. And the comic had to come out before that, obviously. And it's funny because James Gunn and Mark Miller, who created the kick-ass comic, are actually friends in real life. So when James Gunn was getting all this criticism for ripping off kick-ass, Mark Miller actually had to come out and, you know, defending it. And he's like,
00:22:34
Speaker
he's like look it's you know he was doing this stuff when i was doing the comic at the same time like we were doing these basically you know simultaneously it's pretty interesting yeah i remember reading that that's that's crazy and guns guns response i think was pretty good because he says it sucks on the one hand and
Critique of 'Super': Pacing and Story
00:22:53
Speaker
then on the other hand who gives a shit there are 4 000 bank heist movies we can have five superheroes without powers movies
00:23:01
Speaker
That's a great response. Yeah, it's not a movie that, you know, it's still not that popular to have this kind of movie. You know, the superhero with her powers kind of like, I think if kick-ass was one, my mind didn't go to that straight away. It went to...
00:23:16
Speaker
It went to ones before that. So the ones I had watched that was similar to this was, I think you probably would have covered them as well. Blankman. Oh, Blankman, yeah, I remember that. I have not covered that, but yeah, I do remember that one. Yeah, Blankman and I think Mystery Men was the other one. That was kind of similar too. I was Ben Silla. A little bit, yeah, Mystery Men was a little bit more fantastical because it was set in a world with superheroes and supervillains, but then you had these,
00:23:45
Speaker
these guys who were just basically the losers of the superhero crowd. Whereas this one and kick-ass and blank man, they were very much in that, you know, the kind of real world superhero phenomenon. Like you see, you know, like what's his name? Phoenix Jones and all those types of guys who walk around in costume and are, most of them just do like community service, but some of them have actually caused some controversy because they're actual, they're trying to be actual vigilantes. Yeah.
00:24:14
Speaker
Yeah, but yeah, this is very much this and kick ass. And I think if I'm not mistaken, kick ass was also kind of inspired by that. Mark Miller was inspired by that kind of like real world superhero phenomena when he when he started writing that book.
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah, the movies that came to mind. But yeah, it's interesting. Because yeah, it's just I guess, you know, when you're watching this, you sort of take a different approach. You're not expecting, I guess, I wasn't expecting much like, you know, super special effects or super CGI.
00:24:45
Speaker
any of that stuff. You wonder what they actually can explore with this. And obviously, I think a big draw for me was this Rainn Wilson, because I do. I definitely back then, you know, he was sort of dry true and he kind of is dry true to this, to be honest. He's sort of playing a version of himself, which I do enjoy. I did enjoy that persona. But it made me think about him and sort of his career and how it sort of panned out.
00:25:10
Speaker
Yeah, see, I'm not, I've only watched like a handful of episodes of The Office. I just, it's one of those shows that I just could not get into in the same way that other people do. So I have not really seen Rainn Wilson in a lot of stuff. I do, obviously I know him, but for me, he wasn't the big draw. I was more curious about this because of James Gunn, and then also, you know, reading up on it beforehand, finding out that Nathan Fillion's in it too, that also caught my interest as well.
00:25:41
Speaker
from being a Firefly fan from way back. Yeah, the cast is good. You know, Elliot Page, who I thought was fantastic in this. And, you know, Kevin Bacon was a full-out sort of roster. And Liv Tyler, I think it is. Liv Tyler, yeah. Pretty loaded cast, if you just think about it. In fact, I think this is probably the only, other than Incredible Hulk, this was like the only other superhero film Liv Tyler has done.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah, she goes from being in the MCU to being in this, whereas everyone else seems to have gone in the opposite direction, right? Greg Henry, Michael Rooker, Linda Cardolini, they've all gone on to Sean Gunn, they've all gone on to be in the MCU. Steven G, he ended up being in the DC stuff, he was in the Suicide Squad and Peacemaker, and then Kevin Bacon, of course, in the X-Men movies.
00:26:33
Speaker
X-Men stuff, yep, yep. And he's a reference in Guardians of the Galaxy, so. Yeah, so it's pretty, you know, I guess, yeah, so it was, I guess, you know.
00:26:46
Speaker
Yeah, I guess even the action and stuff like that. I was wondering how would it play out, like, you know, with all that? Because, yeah, there are a few comparisons and to be honest, like, you know, Black Man was pretty wacky movie. The action was not much there. I think there was like maybe one scene where he does something and the rest is just, I think it's Damon Wayans just being funny, but trying to be funny, I guess, the whole time. So this is this definitely took a much more serious approach with an actual hero. In fact, and he sort of had some problems.
00:27:12
Speaker
When Derek was still alive, he actually had a moratorium. He refused to cover Blank Man because he hated that movie so much. That's a weird one. Yeah, absolutely. So what were some of the things that kind of jumped out to you rewatching this movie?
00:27:33
Speaker
Watching this, I think, talking about the highlights, I really probably enjoyed the performances a lot. I think that's something I took away. The story, I think the movie did have a lot of issues. I wouldn't say I enjoyed this fully. There was a lot of stuff I was very confused by.
00:27:49
Speaker
had some pacing issues and I think I got a little tired of the joke like I couldn't get past that you know it was like all right it's a superhero with her powers now what you know um and it sort of sort of dried up pretty quickly for me because it's not a long movie but it felt super long for some yeah I had
00:28:06
Speaker
I had kind of a similar experience and it really kind of surprised me. I mean, a lot of it is because James Gunn is obviously not a lot less experienced at this point. But you watch his stuff now and his stuff now is very tight. It's very well paced. Whereas this one, yeah, it drags. It drags a lot.
00:28:26
Speaker
It drags. And it's like, so I think like, I think for me, like I enjoyed Wayne Wilson and the Crimson Bolt and all that, like the action was actually pretty good. Obviously, you know, James Gunn, I was trying to get a feel for what James Gunn was before, you know, cause this is probably one that probably has less studio interference, you know, cause like out of the galaxy, I can tell has quite a bit. And I think to be honest, it kind of works to his advantages sometimes. Cause I think it's just, you know, it's storytelling and that's really good. I mean, the guy is in really both of them.
00:28:55
Speaker
And you know, bigger budgets and all that stuff. But this one was like, okay, James Gunn, you know, go for your life kind of thing. So you can sort of see some of the flaws and some of the stuff that's not really working out that well. Like from what I could tell, James Gunn really likes to shock you because this has a lot of like, you know, like stuff from the start, like whether it's, you know, being peed on as a kid or like, you know, just showing Hentai or whatever it was at the start or like, you know, later on, there's freaking like a few rape scenes and stuff like that.
00:29:23
Speaker
the drop of the end bomb. And there's a lot of stuff that's just like, okay, this is pretty full on. And you know, so, and I saw a little bit of that in, cause I've not actually seen Peacemaker, but I've seen the Suicide Squad movie.
00:29:35
Speaker
Oh, Peacemaker is great. It's got some of that, it's got some of that black humor, but it's handled in a much better way, I'd say. It's handled in a much more mature way. And I think a big part of it is because he was, you know, he got his start in trauma and, you know, low budget Schlock filmmaking. And this was kind of when he was transitioning out of that because he did this and then after,
00:30:01
Speaker
After that came basically Guardians of the Galaxy as far as like big stuff he was doing. But up until this, he had done, you know, these kinds of low budget horror films, basically.
00:30:14
Speaker
I'm quite aware of his, I haven't seen too much of them, but I know he used to be sort of a horror director. And it makes sense with some of his shock, I guess his appetite to shock the audience. I put that because, yeah, another thing I did, the other thing on the re-watch I wanted to see was how did this movie hold up? Because I do remember some of these scenes, not vividly, but I remember it was a pretty
00:30:37
Speaker
controversial movie even for that time with some of the stuff that we're doing um i don't think i don't know i don't know what you think but i don't think this is a movie that would have remade or like they could remake in the same way in today's age um yeah probably not it's it's pretty yeah it's it's got a lot of stuff that it's
00:30:58
Speaker
One of the things I think you can definitely compare it to kick ass in and Mark Miller's comic book work is it's very much got that mentality of like things that a 12 year old boy would find shocking and cool type of stuff.
00:31:13
Speaker
Yep, yep, yep. No, it definitely felt like that. It's like, okay, if this was, if you, if you're a teenager, maybe like, Oh my God, look at this. Well, wow, this is crazy. But he has a great man. You kind of like, okay, cool. I've seen it. Yeah. And then he's like, what's next? Yeah. And it's like, okay. So he's puking now and he's seeing a face in it. Okay. I was seeing these tentacles come up and it's like,
00:31:35
Speaker
All right. It kind of, I guess that style is sort of starting to just, you know, get down on me. And I was like, I'm getting a little tired of this whole thing. So that's sort of why I said, maybe I kind of liked that studio, him working in a studio environment. Cause I can be like, James, just chill out dude. Let's actually focus on the story a little bit here.
00:31:54
Speaker
I think another big part of it is just the fact that, you know, he's gotten older, right? So he's definitely matured a lot just as a person too. Because, you know, yeah, when I was, you know, 15 or 16, like I would have thought this stuff was, I would have thought this was probably the greatest movie ever. Yeah, true.
00:32:14
Speaker
It would have been pretty wild. But no, that's a really good point. Like, I didn't really think about that sort of experience that he sort of gained throughout those years. And this is sort of a movie where he would probably, you know, I don't know if he admits it or not, but he would have probably learned a lot from this movie, just sort of what sort of worked, what didn't work. And a lot of that might have been the foundations for what we see now. The lessons were taken. You said, like, because, yeah, Guardians of the Galaxy is really tight. I think Guardians of the Galaxy is probably up there in one of my favorite superhero movies, because it's just
00:32:43
Speaker
was so, so well done. Especially the first one and even the second one was really entertaining. But the first one was just like, you know, we're diverting a little bit, but just in terms of just like, you know, it wasn't a character I'd heard of similar to this, this is a made up character. But just the way that, you know, he just presented everything in his style, you know, the music choices he uses to make this fun, engaging, you know, movie with comedy and, you know, good action, good emotion as well.
00:33:10
Speaker
I don't know, like this one, I felt like it was almost there, you know? I felt like it was almost there. It just didn't carry through all the way. Like I understood the dark humor part. And while the humor sometimes, you know, lack sometimes, I understood what he was trying to do with it, with the dark side of things. But it felt a little bit short. I don't know about how you felt, but like my emotional connection to Rainn Wilson was not so strong as it was in his movies now, like with guidance again, like, you know, you want the best for all those characters, whether it's Drax or,
00:33:38
Speaker
Peter Quillow, Gamora, whoever in those movies you want the best for them. But this one I'm kind of like, yeah, I couldn't find myself attached to Crimson Boat all that much. Right. But how about you, man? No, I had the same reactions. I think a big part of it too is just like Rainn Wilson's kind of style of acting. He's got this very deadpan style, which is fine if you're playing a supporting character like in The Office.
00:34:06
Speaker
When you're kind of headlining a movie, I think it's a little bit harder to kind of sell people on it, especially a character like this, who is not portrayed in the most sympathetic lights to begin with. So it's really hard. I found it really hard to relate to him as well. And I think
00:34:22
Speaker
Comparing this to peacemaker is a really useful exercise and I know you said you hadn't seen it but I definitely recommend watching it and checking it out because it's because you've got very similar premises on both hands you've got this guy who's basically a violent psychopath trying to be a superhero.
Elliot Page's Performance in 'Super'
00:34:40
Speaker
And another benefit is that, you know, in Peacemaker, Gunn had what, like, you know, eight, nine episodes. So he had a lot more time to kind of play with. But even still, even regardless of that extra time, like that show really does a good job of exploring like the ethics of being like a violent superhero and, you know, dealing with how that weighs on him. Whereas in this, I don't really feel that,
00:35:06
Speaker
Frank ever really kind of learns any lessons necessarily. Like he still seems very much the same kind of diluted guy at the end that he was in the beginning.
00:35:19
Speaker
Yeah, because I guess, you know, I don't really relate with it to him for me. Yeah, I can't connect him with an ethical point of view, like the, you know, the good, evil dilemma, you know, which again, sort of, I mentioned sort of Dark Man at the start. Lots of Dark Man did a fantastic job of portraying that side of things, you know, going into the darkness and, you know, embracing your darkness of whatever that movie does. But this one kind of leaves you kind of like,
00:35:41
Speaker
motivations are he wants to save his wife. So from a personal I didn't get that connection that much because I'm like I don't know this relationship so much and it turns out to be really strange one. Yeah. That's the end what the end was just even more baffling I felt. But then you know yeah the ethical development it was never really there it was just like a madman going after Vincent or trying to become
00:36:03
Speaker
more mad and I'm not sure if there's I don't know what the focus was kind of all over the place I felt like I'm like okay is this a comedy because at times it'd be like this is there for comedic purposes and sometimes it works sometimes it wouldn't you know like there's that there are some memorable scenes like when he's um
00:36:20
Speaker
I think he's like in line to watch a movie and someone butts in and he sees him and he goes and changes and comes back as the same guy. Yeah. Because like he's like, I just saw you. Like, you know, I know who you are. Right. Right. Well, to see when he was changing in the car is what got a chuckle out of me. Like he's he's sitting there and he's in his tighty whiteies and the girls coming like, Mommy, look at that.
00:36:40
Speaker
Another thing I thought was funny is that, well, the other thing that I really liked was when he takes the firecracker and he throws it as like a smoke bob, and then he waits and he runs into his car with the license plate still visible. Yeah, yeah. And the part where he's like, you know, he's running in, he drops something and he comes back and picks it up. And it's like, it's like, that's something that was kind of relatable because like, if any normal human being was a superhero, that's probably the kind of stupid stuff they would do. So that way it was relatable. But I think from a storyline and emotional point of view and the ethical point of view, you're kind of like,
00:37:09
Speaker
it's hard to sort of relate to this guy. And yeah, the main Wilson point you bring up is pretty good. Cause I did, I was a huge office fan. So I loved him in the office, but you're right. He was a supporting character. And there were moments when you were there too emotionally, quite a few, but even from like the start to end, he's not really the character that you focus on from that point of view. He's more, he's almost more common equally for a lot of the seasons until they sort of build them up over like, you know, how many seasons I have 10 or something like that.
00:37:38
Speaker
until he becomes a focus a bit later on. But yeah, I mean, like, did you like him in this movie? Or did you like his song? Because he didn't really pick up much really after he sort of got trapped into that mold and never really broke out of it, I think. I think so. Yeah. He didn't really do much for me in this movie, to be honest, just because, well, like your point when you're saying that this is supposed to be a comedy movie, I'm watching it and, and another
00:38:04
Speaker
big drawback is I'm so familiar with James Gunn when he's really funny and like peacemaker in Guardians of the Galaxy or Suicide Squad. So when I'm watching this, I'm just like, this is not that funny. Like it doesn't have a whole lot of humor going for it.
00:38:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's either shock, like if you find that shock stuff funny, like, you know, if you're laughing at that stuff, maybe then you can get away with it. But like other, in general, this general comedy scenes is a few that we mentioned, which I did like, but it's not like, it doesn't carry you all the way. And I don't know if that's necessarily Rain Wilson's fault. It might just been the character. I didn't really have that much to sort of work with the times. I felt like it was just like,
00:38:43
Speaker
you know, the setups and stuff like that. I did like the, when him and Elliot Page sort of got onto the same page, you know, mine, no pun intended there, but sort of when they sort of get on the same page, it becomes like this duo.
Character Analysis of 'Super'
00:38:58
Speaker
I thought that, I don't know what role she really had, except for just adding, you know, something to the mix, because it was starting to get really sell without anybody.
00:39:06
Speaker
So going into that makes me be like, yep, just go crazy. And she was so off the wall. He was so off the wall. You know, a good, yeah, I think actually, Elliot page got me a lot more interested when he came into the movie, and he got more involved in it. Like, at those points, I did become more invested. Just because like, I'm not, I'm not gonna
00:39:31
Speaker
I don't know if I'd call him a better actor than Rainn Wilson because I haven't seen Wilson enough stuff to really make that judgment. But at least in this one, he had more to work with than Wilson did, I felt like. And that made him a lot more interesting because we got to see him a little bit and he's got a normal life. He's this normal kid.
00:39:52
Speaker
you know, or, you know, a young adult or whatever. And then we see him, you know, basically be, and I see, I'm watching this movie and I see what gun, I think I kind of get what guns trying to go for. Whereas I was comparing it to kick ass in my head and were there, you could make the mistake of thinking like, oh, these are both about real world superheroes. But there's a difference in the type of character because in kick ass,
00:40:19
Speaker
It's he's a decent guy, right? He's a guy who's really trying to do the right thing. He's trying to be a good guy. He's trying to help people out and but whereas in this one, it's a guy who is very diluted, right? It's very much like the the dark side of that coin and I think
00:40:38
Speaker
And I get what Gunn's trying to do, right? I get the whole idea of like, you know, this guy's basically delusional, right? He thinks he had, you know, the hand of God touch his brain, voiced by Rob Zombie. Funny enough. Oh yeah, right. And it's got this, there's this weird religious fundamentalist fervor that's kind of baked into his character and that, and he's, you know, he's,
00:41:04
Speaker
basically turns him into a psychopath. And I thought that's an interesting idea. But I felt like they didn't really explore it enough. There wasn't enough meat on those bones. And I can see the idea of the guns going for it, but he didn't get there for me.
00:41:18
Speaker
Yeah, completely agree. I think they set that from the start. It's like what he says, like, I've had two good moments in my life. And it's just, you know, the day when he pointed towards a grocery store to tell the cop that one of them is the other ones the day he got married. So, you know, they're pretty far apart. So he is definitely delusional. And again, that makes me again, a bit harder. We talked about a little bit before relating to the character. It just was not
00:41:41
Speaker
Yeah, whereas when you talk about like guardians, like you instantly like from the intro scene, you see pitiful doing the dance and you're like, who is this guy? Like, I'd need to know more. And let me follow this guy's journey, because this is captivating. Whereas this just sort of goes down and you're sort of in the mud. And yeah, there's a few scenes with, you know,
00:41:59
Speaker
intervention of God and all that stuff which was okay from a comedy point of view again like you know that tv segments i guess they were kind of funny um where like again if you like that kind of humor maybe this is better like if you like that sort of you know that kind of
00:42:14
Speaker
I don't know what you would call it. To me, it's kind of cringy in a way. It wasn't upsetting me like other sort of queen stuff sort of does. But it's kind of just like whatever. But maybe if you like our stuff, it's better. But yeah, it's interesting. I guess the reason I think I like Elliot, because you mentioned you sort of were invested. You liked Elliot Page a little bit more. Yeah.
00:42:38
Speaker
I think I do too, cause yeah, again, he's a bit more relatable, right? Like again, comic book store, you know, living, um, you know, day to day with these books around him and, um, you know, kind of fantasizing about that life. And you sort of be like, okay, I could, I could, that makes sense to me, you know, like I could see that. And then, you know, the whole, I think there's, there's some dilemma she had right where he had, where he was like, um,
00:43:00
Speaker
I think he was like, you know, I'm, you know, I, when I'm in the suit, I'm not the same person. So when you're Crimson Bolt, you're not the same person. So therefore we could have a relationship as Bolti and Crimson Bolt. Right. It's very much, it's that, it's that kind of like you're taking the secret identity to its illogical extreme, basically.
00:43:19
Speaker
Correct. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And I did like that sort of stuff. So that didn't help to carry it through. So I think I think he was a real breath of fresh air to just come in and be like, hey, and just the performance was crazy, because it was because we're Rainn Wilson was kind of subdued a lot of time, like he has moments where he's going crazy, but a lot of time he's just
00:43:38
Speaker
weird you know as a sort of um portrays of when earlier page comes in he's kind of just like i'm just gonna go absolutely crazy because i've been waiting for this moment and it's it's it's sort of sort of on hints in a way yeah well i think that that's another thing that i think makes uh elliot's character libby so much more interesting is the fact that this is a person we can latch on to
00:44:00
Speaker
from a point of relatability, right? He's a guy who's working in a comic book store, someone who likes reading comic books and hangs out with their friends. So there's those opening connections and we can see how it's like, oh, Libby reads comic books. I read comic books too. This is someone I can relate to. And then we keep going to like, oh, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. But there's that intro point there with, I keep wanting to say Dwight. But with Frank, there's,
00:44:27
Speaker
because he basically is white, like you said. But with Frank, there's there's no like intro point. Like just from the start, I'm just like this guy is just really weird and off putting and I have no way to connect to him.
00:44:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Definitely. It's a whole, the premise is kind of strange as well. Just like, even with Kevin Becky, as much as I liked him, I wish even that was his point a bit better. Like he's, he kidnaps Dwight's, now I'm saying Dwight, he kidnaps him.
00:45:01
Speaker
And it's kind of like, I was like, in the movie, it didn't have to go that much, but I was like, why? Like, you know, I didn't do that much of a relationship, but like, she just drugs her up and uses her, I guess, for exploitation, which is kind of disturbing as well. You know, I think would have worked a lot better is if.
00:45:18
Speaker
Jacques, who's Kevin Bacon's character, was not a bad guy. It's just this guy that she leads, that she leaves Frank for, and then Frank builds up this whole fantasy about him as a fight between good and evil in his mind. I think that would have sold the ideas behind this movie a whole lot more. But as it stands, it is just like, wait a minute, this is... When you get to the point, it's like, there are some points, because it's
00:45:44
Speaker
You know, Kevin Bacon does a good job of playing this guy. He's, you know, he's like, you know, he comes over, he's like having eggs with him and he's like, and he's complimenting him. And he, when, you know, when Frank comes to him and Jock's like, look, man, I was trying to be nice to you. He's got a point. And I wish there was, they had stuck with that instead of going to the point of, okay, yeah, Jock's actually is a bad guy and Frank is somewhat justified in what he's doing.
00:46:07
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a great point. I think that would have been good. It would have added the element of mystery because there's not much. This is there's no mystery in this movie at all. It's pretty straightforward. That would have done something to make it a bit more dynamic and turn something into the mix. Interestingly enough, I think I read that it was meant to be John Codefend Dam. That was meant to play Kevin Bacon's role, which is
00:46:29
Speaker
That would have made it even, yeah, that would have made it even less relatable. Like, I mean, I think Kevin Macon does a good job of making that character somewhat appealing. I don't think Van Damme could have done the same thing. I have no idea what they would have done with Van Damme. It would have, I guess the only benefit you would have had is maybe you'd have a good action scene or something like that. But, you know, I kind of, like when Moose is not going to be able to do martial arts and like, you know, do fire choreography and stuff like that.
00:46:54
Speaker
You know, Van Damme, I love Van Damme, but his acting chops are not, especially back then. He became a better actor actually during his career, but back then he was definitely more around for his splits and, you know, roundhouse kicks and stuff. I thought he wasn't really an actor. So I did like him. I did like him in baking, but you're right. It would have been better if he was a bit more dynamic. I think it was kind of just, it was like one dimensional, you know, stock standard, you know, baddie, I guess. Yeah. And you know,
00:47:23
Speaker
His entourage was pretty funny. Like, you know, I like seeing, you know, I like seeing his brother Sean Gunn in there. Michael Rooker. Michael Rooker. Yeah. You know, these guys that were sort of familiar with, you know, but once you were asking about this, how do you feel about the whole,
00:47:37
Speaker
So, you know, James Gunn with his, you know, his extreme I guess violence like, especially, I don't know if you can say like back then was this more than it is now, more of a shock factor because 2010, it wasn't so I don't know if it's so much but like you know, he really goes, you know, off the wall with his violence sometimes like, you know, we really see you know,
00:47:57
Speaker
faces being torn in half and blood spilling everywhere. There's a whole Batman with this stuff. But how did you think about that stuff? Did you enjoy it? I didn't really give it much thought, to be honest. I thought it was fine for this movie because the whole idea is you're trying to portray what a
00:48:15
Speaker
what this kind of stuff would actually look like in the real world. So I thought that, I thought it worked. Like if, because, you know, in reality, if you hit someone with a pipe wrench, like that's, that's a really, that's going to cause some damage. It's not like in, you know, most superhero movies you see, like, you know,
00:48:31
Speaker
you know, these guys run around with like these blunt weapons and it's just like they knock them and it just knocks the guy out. But otherwise there's like no scar or anything like that. But really if you hit someone, that's a big chunk of metal. Like if you hit someone in the head with that, that's probably gonna split their skull open.
00:48:48
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Yeah, it's interesting, interesting weapon. And yeah, it's like a butt spills and sputters out, you know, it's kind of that way. So I didn't mind it too much, but I think it's just kind of, it kind of wore me down at some point. And I find that a little bit with,
00:49:04
Speaker
James Gunn's Suicide Squad, the recent one that he did. Like that same aspect, it was kind of like, okay, it starts off crazy. And then after that, it's like, we're going to maintain the same tone. So it doesn't pick up or go down. It's just, you know, it's one level, you know? This sort of reminds me of two. I guess it gets a little bit, because at the side, it's more just like him with the wrench or hand to hand, and then he has weapons that just go on. But at the end, the action scene kind of like,
00:49:30
Speaker
It even felt like it was just dragging. It didn't really feel that exciting. I was like, all right, cool. Even though you're having faces blown off and him slowly killing people. And I think what he sends a shot through Kevin Bacon's nuts or something like that. But it's kind of just like, all right. It didn't really do much for me at that point either.
00:49:51
Speaker
No, I felt the same thing. The ending scene didn't really do a whole lot for me. I was, by that point, I think I was pretty much just kind of like checked out of the movie and I was just kind of like, all right, yeah, it's going to be over soon. And because it's, yeah, there wasn't, there was a lot of, there's a lot of interesting ideas in here, especially the whole idea of, you know, how the public reacts to Crimson Bolt, I thought was another thing that
Public Reaction to Crimson Bolt
00:50:17
Speaker
there's an interesting idea there, right? The fact that he is this, this psychopath, but then, and at first people react to him in horror, but then later when it comes out, these were, you know, bad people, then people start react. I thought there's something in there where you can talk about how the, you know, how black and white the public views things. And I thought there's, there's a lot of room to explore that kind of stuff. But again, we're just, we're not getting enough meat on those bones.
00:50:43
Speaker
No, that's a really good one. Like I thought that could have been explored, like how the relationship of the media changes as you sort of progress and sort of what you do and how your actions define you. Are you a good guy? Is the shades of gray? Is it black and white? Are you universally loved? There's all these questions you could have sort of explored, but it's like, what, two scenes? I think they have newscasts. And then you're like, okay, this is interesting, but what else?
00:51:07
Speaker
Right. Right. They're just they're like, OK, well, we got we did that. Now we got to move on. It's these ideas that Gunn has, but he just doesn't give them enough time to really to really explore them. And each of those ideas can be a movie in its own right. Like you could do a whole movie just about just about like the people reacting to a violent superhero and like how that comment like.
00:51:27
Speaker
I don't know, we're following a reporter or someone or a police officer who's investigating a violent superhero. And there's a lot of stuff you can explore with media reaction, all that, which is an interesting idea. And I find these small ideas that Gunn just kind of touches on to be far more interesting than the actual story of this movie. And I'm just like, no, I don't care about Frank. Go back to this other stuff. This other stuff is a lot more interesting. I want you to explore this. Definitely right.
00:51:58
Speaker
Because yeah, because as it stands, and I think a big part of it is just Rainn Wilson, I just, and again, like we said, I just don't think he's charismatic enough of an actor to really kind of, because this movie, and again, I'm going back to comparing it to Peacemaker. One of the reasons Peacemaker works is because John Cena is such a charismatic actor. So even when he's a psychopath, you still enjoy watching him. And so it, and it makes it a little bit easier to stomach. With Rainn Wilson, I just,
00:52:26
Speaker
I'm not interested enough in him. He doesn't grab my attention enough for me to be really not saying you should have had a John Cena in this role, but someone who's got a little bit more even if you had even if you would switch it, you had Elliot Page being the being the lead actor here. I think that I think he had would have a lot more charisma to to carry it through.
00:52:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great point. I think it's um, the screen presence isn't really there I feel like from Rainn Wilson it's kind of like, even like, even if I think of Dwight he's great in a cartoonish way, but to be a lead actor, that's why they sort of have, you know, Michael Scott.
00:53:00
Speaker
Yeah, Steve Carell. Yeah, for his emphasis, you know, Steve Carell and, you know, John Krasinski, they're sort of more the characters you actually relate to because they can have a bit more charisma. Right. It's kind of like, again, in the office, it's like one joke. Repeat that over and over again. And it doesn't go further. So I do like him in a side, you know, comic relief kind of character. Yeah. There he works really well.
00:53:22
Speaker
in a limited capacity. But yeah, there are some flaws, and that's probably why he's created pickup as much as it probably could have. Right. Also, Nathan Fillion too is another one that you could have. In fact, you could have switched Rainn Wilson and Nathan Fillion's characters. I think it would have.
00:53:39
Speaker
And I think it would have worked a lot better because Nathan Fillion has that kind of like every man charisma. And I think he would have really been able to work really well in this. Whereas Rainn Wilson, I think if he was playing that stoic Bible man as character would have been, would have made a lot more sense. I think he would have been able to do that. You know, he would have been able to do that much better and also still sell the whole kind of tongue in cheek aspect of it.
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. It's interesting. I wonder if they were to remake this movie, how they would sort of approach that, because I do think some of those changes would have helped the movie out in general. Yeah, it's interesting. But what do you think about the ending, man? The ending for me was super confusing. I was kind of like, I didn't know what to even make of it. I was like,
00:54:22
Speaker
okay because it's kind of like what happened so he saves her to you know help her get back her life and then she marries somebody else i was kind of like i get it it's going to be dark you know he's not i guess he has found life beyond you know her and all that stuff and that's all good it's kind of just like
00:54:40
Speaker
I guess my, my feeling is like, it's again, it's this interesting idea. And again, we're touching on the aspect of Frank is this damage is this damage guy. He's this, he's this guy who doesn't quite see the world as it really is. So he's not able to, and I get what we're trying to do here, but again, it just doesn't quite sell it. Right.
00:55:01
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I mean, it makes total sense because the whole, and again, this is another idea that's not really explored fully is the fact that Sarah's just kind of using him to get over her addiction, right? She just kind of like jumping from one thing to the next. So at the end, it makes sense that she would, when she recovers, she would leave him behind and move on to something, you know, more normal. But again, the movie just, there's that idea there, but it just doesn't quite sell it enough.
00:55:31
Speaker
Again, I think it's like, I guess this is kind of disappointing because you don't really get that character development from him as well, right? It's kind of like he's just stuck in the same place that he was at the start. Hasn't really moved on from that. So again, I guess you're not invested in his character that much, so it doesn't let you down all that much because I can't really care about him anyway. But a good way we would have actually made you, you know,
00:55:52
Speaker
invest in him and see his journey, whether it's good or bad, you know, it's not like, I guess, you want to see it go somewhere. I guess a little bit because yes, he has more, you know, more great memories in his life or whatever it is. Well, here's another, here's another thing I think would have made it a lot better because John C. Riley was actually Gunn's top choice for Frank. And I think that would have been a much more interesting choice. But yeah, which is weird because he says that
00:56:18
Speaker
Riley at the time wasn't considered a big enough star for the film to get made. So I'm not sure how Rainn Wilson would be considered a bigger star, because especially at that time, I definitely don't think he would have been.
00:56:30
Speaker
2010, it would have been the early days of The Office. So I'm surprised that that's... Yeah. I'm surprised they thought Rain Moulton was big enough. Yeah, that's strange. Coming from TV, coming from TV, especially like, you know, The Office was obviously huge, but... Riley had at least some film stuff to his name at that point. Like he was in Talladega Nights and some other stuff. And I think Step Brothers started to come out by that point, too. Oh, and Chicago, I think that was that was also out of that time, too. Yeah.
00:57:00
Speaker
Yeah. So he had, he had some, you know, he had some pretty decent roles and as also as not only a comedy actor, but also a serious actor, like he had been in, you know, he had been in Boogie Nights. So, yeah, that's weird that they thought he wasn't, he wasn't a big enough name to really kind of carry this movie.
00:57:19
Speaker
I don't know if there was some, cause I know that in the trivia, it says something like, I think Ren Wilson found out about this movie through James Gunn's ex-wife, Jenna Fisher, who was on the office, who plays Pam. So I don't know if that played into it at all. Like it just sort of came across his desk and they're like, oh, you know, do my pal a favor or something like that. I don't know if something like that might've been involved.
00:57:45
Speaker
to give him, to give Dwight a break. Yeah. Yeah. So it says that, okay. So he had been working on it since 2002. So at that point he had, um,
00:57:53
Speaker
Um, you know, Riley wasn't a big enough name. And so he had put it on the back
Casting Choices and Script Refinement
00:57:58
Speaker
burner. And, but then after, after Slither, then. Jenna Fisher encouraged him to, to continue go through with it and also, and recommended rain Wilson at that point. So I guess things had changed by that point. Um, that makes a little more sense. Still, I think he was, he was back on this since 2002. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:17
Speaker
Oh man, that makes me kind of disappointed at all that time. I mean, he wasn't exactly working out the whole time because he had done the specials and then he had the Dawn of the Dead remake and then directing Slither. And then it was after that point that he was encouraged to go back to this. So I think it's just kind of something he dusted off, but probably didn't spend as much time revising it as he probably should have.
00:58:44
Speaker
It definitely feels that way because all the stuff you talked about with some of these concepts on the edges, if they were explored more, I think if the more time was given to the script and maybe changing some things around a little bit or putting more emphasis on some of those things, I think it might've been more interesting, but I think it was just like, look, let's just get this out.
00:59:06
Speaker
Yeah I think that's there's definitely something that happened behind the scenes with this movie because I think with these movies now you can tell there's definitely a good effort to make sure everything makes sense and it's engaging storyline from start to finish. I never feel bored watching these movies which is weird in this one because I just got bored like yeah I think it was like halfway through I was like I'm kind
00:59:27
Speaker
I'm kind of getting bored here. And the earlier page came and I was like, oh, there's a little bit of life here. But it wasn't really enough for me to really enjoy the movie all that much. No, I felt exactly the same way. There's some interesting ideas, but just not enough to really keep my attention as much as James Gunn usually is able to.
00:59:48
Speaker
And I think the fact that he was working on this since 2002 does explain a lot because even if you look at Dawn of the Dead, like that's even a much tighter script than this is. And so I think it's just like he... I don't think he spent enough time on this script that he should have because it just wasn't really there for me.
01:00:08
Speaker
I don't know if it was a, cause it definitely, it has definitely like a TV feel to it, right? Like I don't think anybody would have gone to see this in the cinema or if they did it, it would be very few people. Cause it's definitely a movie you watch at home, you know. Oh yeah. I mean, I think it was a big, it was a much bigger release on digital actually, I believe. Yeah. That makes sense. So yeah, it, so it, it opened in 11 theaters and made,
01:00:36
Speaker
about just under 47,000. But then when it was on VOD, it made, and since 2011, as of 2011, it had made 1.5 million on DVD and Blu-ray sales. Okay. And sorry, it picked up afterwards. Yeah, it had gotten, it was,
01:00:55
Speaker
I don't know if it actually ended up, it was anticipated to be the most successful VOD film for IFC at the time. I'm not sure if it actually ended up being like that, but that was where it says it was anticipated to, but it did make almost its budget back through DVD and Blu-ray. It had a budget of 2.5 million.
01:01:16
Speaker
Yeah, the cast I'm guessing is quite high. I guess a bit of prosthetic CGI kind of stuff or however they did it. Well, I mean, they got some interesting names. They got some big names in this cast. I mean, you know, getting Liv Tyler, Kevin Bacon, Nathan Fillion, Elliot Page, Michael Rooker, Rob Zombie coming in to play the voice of God. I mean, yeah, the cast is probably where most of the budget for this movie went.
01:01:40
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. And this is definitely a movie that if it came out like, you know, if it's to come out on like Netflix, like one of their releases, I'm sure we'll get like a pretty decent one for a week or two or something like that. Because it's definitely the kind of movie that back in like, you know, back when we were sort of growing up, it would have been the, you know, Friday night TV movie or like Saturday morning or Saturday afternoon movie or something like that, that you chuck on a channel and just watch. So, yeah, it's it's definitely was like maybe it was maybe James Gunn's what the point was like, all right, let's just this is good enough.
01:02:09
Speaker
you know, get out there, you know, for me to sort of move on with this project because I didn't want to linger on for too long because the guardians have to do that sort of bigger projects coming up. Also, there's one other thing I want to mention about this.
Shared Universe with 'Brightburn'
01:02:22
Speaker
Did you ever see the movie Brightburn? I have not seen Brightburn, but I've heard about the movie. Yeah, Brightburn is it's good. It's a superhero horror film. It's basically, you know, the Superman story, but
01:02:34
Speaker
He gets his powers early and he becomes, you know, he becomes a psychopath basically. You know, what happens when you give all this power to a kid who has to deal with bullying and all that kind of stuff. It's a really good movie, but it's also, there's a mid-credit scene where there's a reference to where Rainn Wilson actually reprises his role as the Crimson Bolt. So this movie and Brightburn exist in the same universe.
01:03:03
Speaker
So yeah, so there's, and so yeah, Rainn Wilson has, there's a photograph of the Crimson Bolton there. So yeah, so there's that little bit of, yeah, there's this. And also when we had talked about Brightburn, I talked about this with the original co-host, Eric. He had talked about how when he did, when he was, when we were watching Brightburn and then after that we watched Chronicle and he said, you could actually fit Chronicle into that same universe too.
01:03:29
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Yeah, so a bit of a multi-way stuff going on there, I guess. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm definitely going to check out Brightburn. Brightburn is definitely worth the watch. It's much better than this. It grabbed my attention much better than this. And James Gunn produced that. So he didn't write it. He didn't write it or direct it, but he did produce it. His brothers wrote it, I believe. Oh, really? Yes. Very cool.
01:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, any other final things to mention about Super? Super? No, really, I think we covered it off pretty well. Overall, I guess my final statement would be that I think it's an OK movie, probably not a movie I'm going to watch ever again. I think at this point, I think I've seen it twice now. Yeah, I think that the rework probably was not any better than the original watch, because the original watch would have been ages ago.
01:04:22
Speaker
Obviously, I didn't remember it too well back then, and I'm not gonna, it's not, it doesn't really leave you with too much memory. I do want to ask you though, how does, how, where would you rank this in terms of the other movies to be talked about before, in the same sort of genre, with the black man's and the, I won't say mystery man, because you're right, that is a bit, that is a bit different. It's like regular people in a superhero, superhero world, but kick ass and all the sequels. Where would this sort of sit?
01:04:48
Speaker
So it's definitely better than blank map, I would say that. Kick ass would be right at the top. Kick ass two, because I was really disappointed with kick ass two. I'm not sure if I rank, I got to watch kick ass two again to kind of judge it. I'm not sure if I'd put this above or below kick ass two, but somewhere along the same lines as kick ass two, I'd say. So like you'd have kick ass way at the top and then there's this really big drop off and then you've got these other three.
01:05:17
Speaker
I definitely agree. I think I'm probably on the same boat as you. Kick-Ass is like way, way above. I think Kick-Ass did a great job. Kick-Ass was a good movie, that first one. It is for this movie you talked about how Nicholas Cajun for like a nice little cameo, which was really impactful.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think this movie liked that dynamic. I just remember on occasion that being so dynamic because he's such a great actor, he can do that. This movie sort of had a lot of actors, but they weren't put in positions to do much. Like the only person that was was probably Wayne Wilson and he didn't have the range to do it. So yeah, we talked about a lot of other people that could have played that role. I think he liked that as well. Like Elliot Paz does a great
01:05:56
Speaker
try for that you know I thought it was really good um he knows but again it's a very limited role and it's you know there's some complexities but not that much no absolutely yeah I think yeah kick ass benefited from you had these big name actors playing these really eccentric characters so you had um you had Nick Cage doing like basically an a psychotic Adam West in that movie which was great it worked perfectly for that
01:06:22
Speaker
But you also and you had Mark Strong, who's also this, you know, playing this very over the top crime lord and but you've got Aaron Taylor Johnson, who's very anchored. He's a very anchored character throughout that whole movie and it really kind of
01:06:37
Speaker
helps pull you through that movie. And these other guys are there and their big personalities are entertaining to watch, but they never really distract you from the central story. This, you've got an uninspiring lead who doesn't grab your attention enough. And then you've got these big name actors, but they're not eccentric enough to make up for that. So it's, yeah, it just, it doesn't work enough on either one of those levels.
01:07:00
Speaker
And you had the potential, you had Kevin Bacon there. You had an Ethan Philly in there. But the only one who really shines through is Elliot Page. Yeah, I guess they're all one dimensional. That's the thing, right? It's like, Kevin Bacon sucks at a bad guy. Like, you know, Ethan Philly in like comedic relief, you know, or something like that, not much of a role. Well, I mean, you even have like Michael Rooker in there, who's- Yes. Who would usually play that kind of role, but he's just not.
Comparing 'Black Man' and 'Kick-Ass'
01:07:28
Speaker
no exactly right yeah i probably i've i don't want to watch black man again just because i don't want to put myself through that but i would i would question whether this is above or below black man i mean blank man is just
01:07:43
Speaker
I like that because Damon wanes if you like that sort of humor you might love it but i don't like that style of his humor all that much so yeah i mean the if i was comparing this the first time i watched blank man i would say i laughed more at that than i did at this but the first time i watched blank man i was like and maybe so it's a very different
01:08:05
Speaker
Yep, yep, yep. I don't want to put this, probably neck and neck with Black Man. I can't remember Kick-Ass 2 all that much either. I do think it was definitely a step down from Kick-Ass 1. Oh, massively. Yeah, massively. Which is why I didn't teach you the franchise. It was just, you know, let's do one more, get the money and then... Yeah, that was pretty much it after that.
Future of D54 Podcast
01:08:26
Speaker
Uh, all right. I want to tell people where they can find you and your podcast. Yeah, of course. Yeah. You know, first thing, man, thanks so much for having me on. I really enjoyed talking about this movie. Um, really appreciate it. Uh, great times conversation about this weird movie. I would say that was great. Um, but yeah, so the podcast is just D 54.
01:08:45
Speaker
Yep, just Spotify, Apple Podcast. I think we're on Instagram as well. Yep, just D54. I think it's .pod or something like that. This happened in D54. It should come up at this point. We'll have the link in the show notes so people can check those out. Oh, perfect. Yeah, yeah. But I think speaking of superhero movies, I think our next movie we're releasing is going to be the new Schwarzenegger movie. Okay. The Samaritan. Oh, that's Stallone.
01:09:11
Speaker
Yeah, it's my movie. Yeah, yeah. So there's a little tie-in for superhero lovers there. I've never actually seen it yet. So this episode is actually going to be coming out in like December or so. So by the time this episode's out, then that should definitely be already on your feed. Yeah, yep. Well, there you go.
01:09:29
Speaker
Okay. All right.
Scheduling Challenges and Wrap-up
01:09:31
Speaker
Great. Well, uh, thanks for coming on and thanks for, um, so, you know, a little behind the scenes stuff. You guys don't realize this, but this has actually taken like three tries to get on it on the show because we had a bunch of different stuff pop up in my light. So, so thanks for being so understanding and being willing to reschedule after the second time. It's like, Oh man, he's not going to come on the show now, but no,
01:09:52
Speaker
No, it's hard to say. Life can get in the way of time, so don't worry about that all. Yeah, but thanks for coming on. Great to have you on. And yeah, anytime you want to come on back, you're more than welcome to. Awesome, man. No, looking forward to it. Okay. All right. And that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephiles. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, and we are SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram.
01:10:12
Speaker
and remember if you subscribe to our patreon for as little as one dollar a month you get these episodes a week in advance and you also get the the bonus uh superhero cinephiles book club show where we talk about comics and all that fun stuff thanks so much for listening and we will talk to you next time
01:10:30
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:10:50
Speaker
If you're interested in reading some comments and don't know where you should start, plus you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else. On all of this for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash SuperCinemaPod and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts.
01:11:33
Speaker
Thank you for listening. And as always, good night. Good evening. God bless.