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X2 (2003)
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This week, Perry welcomes back Oscar Owens and Pat Lagua, his former co-hosts on the now-complete E For Evolution: X-Amining Grant Morrison's X-Men podcast. We discuss perhaps the best of Fox's X-Men films, 2003's X2. How does it hold up twenty years later, what missteps did it make, and more reflections on the Fox films.
Listen to E For Evolution: X-Amining Grant Morrison's X-Men for our complete breakdown of Morrison's New X-Men
Follow Pat's Tumblr or listen to him on Krakoan Exports
Follow Oscar on Twitter
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Transcript
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Podcast and Guest Introductions
00:02:02
Speaker
Charles Xavier, have you come to rescue me? Sorry, Eric, not today. To what do I owe the pleasure? The assassination attempt on the president. What do you know about it? Nothing. Only when I read in the papers. You really shouldn't have to ask, Charles. What's happened to you?
00:02:26
Speaker
I've had frequent visits from William Stryker. You remember him, don't you? William Stryker? His son, Jason, was once a student of yours, wasn't he? Yes, yes, you do. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to help him. At least not in the way that his father wanted. And now you think that taking in the Wolverine will make up for your failure with Stryker's son?
00:03:01
Speaker
on the path. Logan's mind is still fragile. Is it? Or are you afraid of losing one of your precious X-Men, old friend? Eric, what have you done? I'm sorry, Charles. I couldn't help it. What have you told Stryker?
00:03:31
Speaker
Everything.
00:03:44
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And some of you may know, but up until about a year ago, I was working on a podcast project with two other guys. We were doing a complete read-through of Grant Morrison's new X-Men run. And we wrapped up about that about a year ago. I had a lot of fun doing it. And both of them are here with me today to talk about X2. And that is Patrick Lagua and Oscar Owens. Guys, how you doing today?
00:04:14
Speaker
I'm good. Nice to be back. Good to see you again, Harry. Yeah, it's really good to see you guys again. I'm excited to talk about X-Men with you boys.
00:04:26
Speaker
Yeah, same here. I'm really looking forward to it. This is something I've been hoping we could, ever since we ended the show, like I said, floated the idea past you guys and you're both key on it and then just time came up and just like, it became one of those things that were just kind of like dangling out there like an X-Men plot thread. So then as I was making plans for a new episode, I'm like, you know, I should really talk to them and see if we could sort out logistics and get everybody's schedules in. So I'm really glad we were able to work everything out.
00:04:56
Speaker
But before we jump too much into the movie, what I like to do is ask people, especially returning guests, what kind of thing are you into
Current Interests and Media Trends
00:05:05
Speaker
lately? It can be comic books, movies, TVs, anything that's kind of like capturing your interest right now. Pat, how about we start with you?
00:05:15
Speaker
I mean, I'm still loving the crop of Xbox that are coming out. I've been playing a lot of the Resident Evil 4 remake. I think I'm on my third playthrough of that right now. Oh, wow.
00:05:31
Speaker
Well, the novelty now is like I have Leon wearing all the kinds of weird costumes. So now I make him look like a 1920s gangster type, which is one of the variant costumes. So it's just really amusing just to have him walking around a Spanish village dressed up as like a 1920s gangster. It makes me very happy.
00:05:55
Speaker
I do that with, I've got the dead, what's the dead rising games or whatever, I can't remember exactly the name offhand, but I've got the fourth one of that and just like dipping in and out of it here and there. And I've got the definitive edition. So it's got all the different costumes and looks so you can just play around with those. And yeah, that's a lot of fun too.
00:06:17
Speaker
Oscar, how about you? What is grabbing your interest these days? Look, I'm obsessed at the moment with jury duty, which is not comic related. But I am someone who went to law school. I think that kind of hits into it as well. But it's just it seems like the perfect amalgamation of the office, the Truman Show and punked all put in together. And
00:06:47
Speaker
I think the whole world right now is gone viral, but everyone seems to have just fallen in love with the guy that's getting punked Ronald. He just seems like the sweetest, kindest, nicest, coolest guy. I'm obsessed with it. It's great. I don't know how they're going to do it again. They're going to have to try and come up with some other
00:07:12
Speaker
way to recreate the magic and catch the lighting in the bottle. But yeah, jury duty, if you haven't seen it, watch it. Oh, that's a freebie Oscar. I haven't heard of it. Okay, so it's what it is, is they've got it's like a reality show. And they've got a trial, like a civil litigation, someone's to this woman suing one of her old employers. And there's a judge, there's a jury, there's a bailiff, they the jury is sequestered.
00:07:39
Speaker
but the trick is that everyone is an actor except for one juror and James Marsden is one of the the jurors that gets called in and he plays like a exaggerated version of himself yeah and they are they one of the very first scenes he's like walking in and he sits down and they've orchestrated it so that when
00:08:05
Speaker
Ronald his name is when Ronald comes in he sits down on a chair and then James Marsden comes and sits next to him and somebody asks James for like a selfie and James starts to talk to him and he's like, yeah Yeah, I was just in the the I was in like the sonic movie and this guy Ronald's like, oh, I heard that movie was shit. I
00:08:28
Speaker
And James Marson's like, oh, like inside, you can see he's like cut a little bit. But on the other side, he's like, oh, yes, this is going to be, you know, like, like magic. And yeah, he keeps saying that people keep calling him like the X-Men boy. And this crazy stuff happens within the trial, which is completely outrageous. And this poor guy sort of gets strung along. And yeah, it's really good. It's well worth a watch.
00:08:56
Speaker
I'll see if I can find it somewhere. My thing is I just picked up, it's the Superman legacy sale. So I just picked up a bunch of Superman books for the 85th anniversary. And one of them was, I was just talking to Pat before you came on. I just finished reading Son of Kal-El book two. Tom Taylor's doing that. And it was such a great read. I really enjoyed digging into that.
00:09:21
Speaker
That's the big thing for me now. Also, we've got a new season, a new episode of Succession that I still have to watch. And I also just wrapped up Beef. I'm not sure if you guys saw that on Netflix, but that was really entertaining. I enjoyed Beef thoroughly. I thought it was great. Beef is definitely on my to watch list. I haven't got there yet, but it's definitely on my to watch list.
00:09:45
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I'm glad my wife suggested it because I'd seen it and I'd been hearing little rumblings of it here and there, but I hadn't actually sat down and started watching it, but she came home one day and she's like, let's watch Beef. I heard it's really good. And I was hooked like from the first episode and we just like binged the whole thing in a week. Because I don't do a lot of binging these days. It's like, you know, watch one episode here, one episode there, but, you know, just with kids and work and everything, I barely have the time. But this, you know, we made time for because it was that good.
00:10:15
Speaker
That's a pretty big appraisal then. Yeah, I mean, I think so, at least. Anyway, today, like I mentioned, we are talking about X2, the 2003 sequel to the first X-Men movie.
X2 Film Release and Impact
00:10:31
Speaker
And this is a movie that I've been wanting to cover for a while. And it's one of those big gaps we have on this show. We've covered 150 plus episodes now.
00:10:43
Speaker
at every now and then i'll look over the the list of movies that we haven't done and i'll see like there's a big one that i'm surprised nobody has requested um the dark knight is one of them and x2 is another one it's just one of those big holes that's been in there for a long time and i'm glad i could finally get you guys on to talk about it uh before we dive too much into um
00:11:04
Speaker
the movie as a whole, let's talk a little bit about when it first came out, because I'm probably correct in assuming both of you guys saw it when it first came out. So what do you remember thinking about it at the time? I was just so excited, because I think all the media buzz around it that I read before it came out, just talked about how it's so much bigger and better than the first one. And I mean, to be fair,
00:11:31
Speaker
the bar was pretty low in that regard to like improve on the first film. So I was really excited and I think it delivered on all counts. And I remember it was back during the time where there were still such things as dollar movies. I don't know if that's the thing either of you can recall, but. Oh yeah, I recall that. So that sort of, I think I saw that film in the theaters at least maybe 10 times.
00:12:02
Speaker
because there were dollar movies. Oscar, how about you? Well, I've never heard of a dollar movie. What is a dollar movie?
00:12:11
Speaker
It's just what it sounds like. But it's not first run films. So they would show like films that have been out for a while and maybe not showing in a first run theater. And then you just pay attention or you see a movie. Usually like smaller theaters, older theaters. It's like after the movie's been out for two or three months, then it'll come to these dollar theaters. They've got like the old style crappy seats and all that kind of stuff.
00:12:34
Speaker
I went to see recently, just before the Oscars, I went and saw everything everywhere all at once for $5. So maybe that's like a 2023 version of a dollar. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. That was a great film, by the way. And it's even I still have a hero as well.
00:12:49
Speaker
it has I it hasn't I think it's just come out in the theaters here so and I'm not sure if it's um if it's got English subtitles or Japanese subtitles because with movies here sometimes they'll have the English subtitles and Japanese subtitles for foreign language scenes sometimes they won't so um so I'm waiting a little bit longer to get it on on video for me I think it was the best film I've seen in the last 10 years maybe it was fantastic but um when x-men 2 came out I'm unlike Pat
X-Men Franchise Development
00:13:18
Speaker
I loved the first one. I was really nervous when I watched it. As I always am, when I read a book and then you watch the film, you're like, oh, how badly are they going to get this wrong? I thought it was great. It was a good, it was like one of the first good comic book movies, really.
00:13:36
Speaker
I think it kind of kick-started everything, the first X-Men one. I loved it. But when the second one came out, there was just a little story about it. So I had the DVD, because of course I bought the DVD. But when X2 came out, there was the special edition DVD where you got the commentary or something like that. And even though I already had the first...
00:13:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's it, right? So even though I already had it on DVD, just like being a full completist, I bought the second one and there was a competition. And if you enter the competition, you could by buying the DVD, you could win a chance to go to a preview screening. So I was lucky enough to win. And I got to go and see the film like a week or two before it actually came out. So I watched it in a room full of media and they were mostly journalists, you know, writing down their reviews and stuff.
00:14:28
Speaker
And being my ex at the time was really excited that we got to see it before everyone else. And I didn't have anything spoiled and it was fantastic. And I was just like, that was the best movie I've ever seen in my life at the time. And I think, yeah, I think it was just fantastic. And it also kick started for me, making sure that I watch superhero films now on opening night.
00:14:53
Speaker
Because I hate the risk of like opening up Twitter or opening up social media or even just like, I don't know, looking on a news website and just seeing a comment that spoils it for everything. Whereas going to that previous screenings, maybe be like, no, we have to go opening right now. We have to have that true experience. Yeah. I am. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Pat.
00:15:16
Speaker
Which I was just going to say nowadays is no longer Friday, but Thursday and sometimes Wednesday night before it comes out. It keeps creeping in earlier the week. I know, right? Like you'll start on Monday now. Well, I was super lucky living in Australia because the day starts, the world's day starts there. So if you're in Australia, you really are the first people to see it. So we were we were we were lucky that we don't have to worry there about Americans posting about it on Twitter and ruining it for us.
00:15:46
Speaker
Nice thing is here if something comes out like spring break time or if it comes out like in or if they try to shoot for Memorial Day weekend, because we don't have like in Japan, for example, next week is guardians is coming out on the fifth, but it comes out here on the third because that's when the holiday week next week starts. So so I'm going to get to see it two days before everybody else.
00:16:07
Speaker
So I'm looking forward to that. But yeah, I think my opinion on the first X-Men movie, I think it was somewhere between you two, I really liked it when I first saw it. And I think it was Oscar, very similar to what you said. It's just that idea of, oh my God, they got it. They got it. It doesn't suck. It doesn't suck. And then on repeat viewings, I'm like, well, they kind of changed a lot of stuff. I'm like, ah, this maybe doesn't quite work so well. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah.
00:16:34
Speaker
I guess I'll walk it back a little bit. I didn't mean to imply that he didn't like the first movie. I did enjoy it a lot. I think they got more right than they got wrong. But there were still some glaring flaws that even in my heart of my X-Men addict loving heart, I couldn't forgive. But not to say like, I think they did a great job because
00:16:58
Speaker
there was a lot of expectation and it's a lot of, it's a very difficult thing to pull off. And so I think an assessment of it didn't suck relatively means they did a good job.
00:17:12
Speaker
Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm not trying to impugn the movie. It was it was good. I enjoyed it. And I still enjoyed it. We covered it way back on an early episode of this show. And yeah, the more I watch it, it's like the third act is really weak and Rogue is not Rogue at all. She's basically Kitty Fried. And there are a lot of issues like that I had with it. Plus, it's just, you know, it's it's the it's basically Wolverine and the X-Men. And when the second one came out, like I remember sitting there in the theater and being like, oh,
00:17:42
Speaker
Oh my God, they got almost everything right. And like it, and one of the things I, watching it last, the other night, I realized, I'm like, it is much more of an ensemble piece. Like all the other characters get a lot more attention, except for Cyclops, which we'll talk about. But for the most part, it is, it's not as Wolverine focused as the first one or the third one was, or it's not as like Xavier and Magneto focused or Mystique as the, as the first class stuff was.
00:18:10
Speaker
I felt like out of all the X-Men movies, this is the one that really felt like it was an ensemble picture. A lot more than any of the other ones did. And I think that also hints at, and one of the reasons I really love the second film is it hints at this possibility of like,
00:18:29
Speaker
they're going to explore more. They're going to go into different facets of the franchise. It's not just going to be about Wolverine. It's not just going to be about the Charles Magneto thing, because it's such a rich source of material that the second film, I think, really hints that, oh, they're going to explore that. Or maybe they're going to go here. I think it hinted at a lot of different possibilities that they could go to.
00:18:56
Speaker
which unfortunately didn't happen in the third film, but that is not the topic of this episode. Yeah. I mean that, and that last scene of the, of this film, I mean, I remember freaking the fuck out of the theater. Cause I'm like, okay, they're going to show her. We saw, we saw a little bit of the fire effect. I'm like, Oh, they got a Phoenix effect. I'm like, that's probably all we're going to see of it when I was watching. And then at the end, she dies. I'm like, Oh my God. She, they killed her. I'm like, Oh crap. Are they going to like, they're probably not going to show anything though.
00:19:24
Speaker
And then at the end there, it showed the vague outline. And then it just cuts the credits. I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm waiting here. Waiting until I'm like, there's going to be something. Is she going to do it? Is she going to do it? And I think in my headcanon, because I was just watching the other day, I had this, and I hate nitpicking, but I did it in that one moment. But I'm like, why did she leave the plane?
00:19:48
Speaker
Because I feel like you can just do it from, by the way, inside the plane. And so my head cannon now is like, maybe she knew, like she was going to go bad. And so like, this was her way of like, okay, I'm going to save everyone and also take care of that little problem.
00:20:04
Speaker
And no, the problem with that, I think, was the because her powers were interfering with the ship's control. You saw that. Yeah. Because you saw that all the lights and stuff were flickering. Yeah. They also hinted that early on when they were in the museum and when she's near the TV screens, all of them are flickering on and off. She she had some struggle. She had some struggle with it as well when the when Storm did the tornadoes, right? And she was. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She couldn't just push through it. They put some sort of limitations on her power there.
00:20:33
Speaker
But I think me and all my X-Men loving friends, when it came out, that final scene, we were just like, oh, they mean business. This is cool. This team knows what they're talking about, and they're talking to their audience.
00:20:47
Speaker
Although, and also, it's sort of that insider knowledge thing, I think. Like, if you didn't read the X-Men, I'm sure you're just, what is the big deal, you guys, with this, why are you going crazy with this? Whatever that is. Are you okay? Like, Pat, are you all right? I'm like, you don't understand, okay? Like, you do not understand the meaning of it. I do remember, like, me and, yeah, I saw with a buddy who was also a big comics fan, and when that, at the end, we were like, freaking out, we're standing up, we're clapping, never gonna look out, like, what the hell's wrong with you?
00:21:13
Speaker
Hey, what's the big deal? It's just water, okay? Are you all right? It's fine. Which was an excuse for me to then explain to friends, which I always find. Well, let me tell you all about this two-year storyline that happened, so. So yeah, now, what do you guys think rewatching it for this show? It held ups. It holds up well, I think.
00:21:42
Speaker
Like you said, it's an ensemble piece, which is very enjoyable. It doesn't feel that dated. And it's also, it feels like it's still fresh, like not boring. It didn't feel like a chore to watch it.
00:22:06
Speaker
Yeah, I feel a very similar kind of way, you know, like I didn't feel like it was a chore to watch it. I do think it is a little long. It could be trimmed a little bit if I have to give some criticism. Sometimes I say it's like, perfect. It's not perfect film. It could be shortened
Political and Thematic Analysis of X2
00:22:25
Speaker
a little bit. I know towards the end, whether at the dam and stuff, I was like, I did feel it was a little bit long.
00:22:32
Speaker
But I think a lot of the political themes that are seeped within it are still super relevant. Even more so. Yeah, well, perhaps, you know, like I remember that the one line, what the president says, like, oh, we can't have any pictures of dead mutant children on the front page of the six o'clock news. Six o'clock news. Yeah. And, you know, this film came out just as the Iraq War was all hitting up, right?
00:23:02
Speaker
And that was... Yeah, I think it came out that summer, if I'm remembering correctly. Yeah, so it was like a huge sort of... That line in particular was very pointed towards that sort of political situation. And I think it's still relevant now, super relevant now, the coming out scene with Bobby. So prophetic.
00:23:30
Speaker
When I watched it, I was like, Oh my God, they get it, you know, because the X-Men is political, very political and especially for the LGBT people. And I was like, Oh, thank God. Like, you know, they, they, they, they get it. But upon rewatching it a second time, I thought, okay, there's no subtlety at all. Just like with that scene, they just like bang it on the head to make sure that everyone that's eating their popcorn, like actually got the, uh,
00:24:00
Speaker
the message there. But you know, it still needs to be said. I think that's why the themes of the X-Men are kind of timeless. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say in terms of the film itself, I think the only thing I would really say upon the second viewing now, like what is it like 20 years, 20 years later, is that it's a little bit long. It's a little bit long.
00:24:26
Speaker
Um, I would also say that I, and this isn't necessarily well, it is a criticism, but it may be a thing that's necessary given.
00:24:36
Speaker
It's one film, and you have so many characters that you're playing with. Not all of them get the same kind of plot servicing that I would have wanted. But again, you're working with a limited time. Oscar already said, it's already too long, so we can't add any more minutes and screen time to some characters. But it would have been nice to
00:24:58
Speaker
give the same kind of treatment that some of the characters got to others, like poor Lady Deathstrike, for example, who, I mean, she got that awesome fight scene, but I mean, she would have been nice to get her more character development. Pyro 2, I don't know why I thought this. Oh, I know why, because I just found out recently and I didn't know this about the comic book character, like apparently he writes romance novels, like in the comics, like he was a romance. He's also Australian.
00:25:27
Speaker
Right, right. I'm like, wouldn't that have been interesting? Like, what if this Pyro was also some kind of budding romance novelist? But no, he's just sort of like the jackass, like, foil to Bobby, this fire and ice. Okay, fine. I actually liked Pyro's, you know, that they had someone sort of go to the dark side and get, you know, tempted by the power. That's,
00:25:57
Speaker
That's a super important part of the X-Men as well. I'm glad that they put someone in there that did that. But I think Pyro's character was just, it could have been anyone, right? It was just like, I will use the fire because it's the perfect sort of match to go with Iceman.
00:26:15
Speaker
they also they had him in they had that cameo of him in the first movie so I think that was also why they're like oh we can use him now for that and I thought it was a yeah I really like pyro in this I thought he was a Aaron Stanford came in he replaced the guy who did the cameo in the first movie
00:26:30
Speaker
And I thought he was a lot of fun, just trying to be a dick. I love to see, talking about the coming out scene, when the mother's like, oh, this is all my fault. And he's like, no, actually, they found out that men are the one who pass on the mutagen. So it's his fault. It's his fault. My head cannon is like, that's not actually true. Pyro just fucking with them.
00:26:55
Speaker
I also read an interview with him, but I don't know why I remember this, but he said that the flicking of the lighter, yeah, the on and off flicking of the lid of the lighter was not in the script. And that was something that he just sort of ad-libbed to act like a dick to annoy everyone. And it worked, it works. Yeah, for sure. Fantastic. You know, that's, it should have been in the script. That's one thing I will add about looking back on this movie 20 years later is that
00:27:25
Speaker
The writing of the film is superb. It's clearly much better than a lot of the other. I just watched Ant-Man a few weeks ago and I was like, oh, I hated it. And it's not very many movies that I actually hate. I hated Ant-Man. And watching X-Men 2, I was like, this is so much better.
00:27:52
Speaker
You're talking about Quantum Mania, you mean? Yes. OK. Yeah. I know that Perry enjoyed it. I dug it.
Character Representation in X2
00:28:00
Speaker
Yeah, I dug the I mean, it wasn't it wasn't as good as the as the other two Ant-Man movie, but and it's definitely not as good as X2. I'll agree with you on that. But I like that they, and there were definitely a lot of problems with it, but I like that they swung for the fences with the the super sciency, curvy, weirdness type of stuff.
00:28:19
Speaker
Um, that's gonna say I also liked how, I know it's a lot, it is a long movie, but there's a sense of economy to, there were so many cameos and I think they did it in such a way where
00:28:33
Speaker
And I like it when it hits that magic spot of like, okay, if you know, you know, and it's gonna push your buttons. But if you don't know, it's not really intrusive to the flow of the film. So there's all those cool cameos with like Colossus, you know, he does a thing. Siren is sort of like the early alarm system for the school, I guess, which works. But if you know, you know, right? Like, ah, that's a cool nugget given to the film. We have Beast on the TV.
00:29:00
Speaker
right. And then Kate, Kate, of course, Kate now walking through the wall. So all this like little cool tidbits was made it to the screen. All of those cameos we recognize as the characters and I think later on in the films, especially in the last end and stuff, all of the
00:29:20
Speaker
extras, we'll say, were not as identifiable and perhaps not even characters. They've just made it up rather than taking it from the books. I really like that all of those little background characters in X-Men 2 were proper Easter eggs for the fans. Yeah, yeah.
00:29:36
Speaker
Oh and like you said it did feel a lot more natural. Like you compare it to like in X-Men Origins Wolverine where it felt completely forced in. They're like let's just try and grab as many mutants as we can and throw them in there even if it doesn't make any sense. Whereas here all the cameos it felt like a natural thing to have those specific characters in those spots.
00:29:55
Speaker
The writing, that's what it is. The writing was good, yeah. I want to mention one of the things about Kitty, about Kate, that I thought was funny was that rewatching these movies is that they use a different actor in the first movie. Every film, right, yes. And it seems like she gets younger with each movie.
00:30:14
Speaker
It's a secondary mutation, okay? Like she bets younger as she goes on. The same thing happened with Jubilee. Yeah, yeah. No, it's the same actress as Jubilee in these two movies. Oh, really? Yeah, it was Kia Wong in both of these two. Yeah. Okay. I was gonna say too, that scene with Mystique when she breaks into the office, like what a clever way to Easter egg it, right? Because when she's looking at the computer and there's all these references and you're like,
00:30:43
Speaker
Franklin Richards, Project Wide Awake, like, oh my God, they're Sentinels, y'all. Oh my God. Like, I know what that is. I'm so much better than all the other theater audience members right now. But that was just such a cool part. And so economical. Mystique's scene there is that scene, the two scenes that she has, right, in this film, better than any of the Mystique-focused
00:31:08
Speaker
scenes in any of the other movies that were, you know, basically mistake. 110% agree. Yes, it's so good. Like, even when she has just she has very few lines as well, but they really got her character by sneaking into the government facility. Yes, that is totally mistake. And why do you
00:31:28
Speaker
you could walk around and look like anyone why you choose to walk around looking like this and she she says because why you know we shouldn't have to shouldn't have to it's funny because I remember when when Rebecca Romain was first cast and in the first movie everyone's just kind of like oh they're just casting her because she's a supermodel and because she's in the news right now and they just want someone who looks good and you watch her in this movie
00:31:49
Speaker
And like, no, she's actually a pretty decent actress. And like, in just those few little moments, she completely captures who Mystique is. Far better than Jennifer Lawrence did in, what, three fucking movies?
00:32:00
Speaker
Yeah, where she's the centerpiece of the whole films. Well, maybe last one, whatever. Yes. Yeah. And I mean, say what you will about models or whatever. But I have a lot of respect for anybody who's gonna sit in the makeup chair for God knows how long like having that applied on you day in and day out, like, was it something like six or seven hours?
00:32:23
Speaker
Something like that. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot. I remember she said when they were filming the first movie, they actually had to because between takes that because they were filming outside. They actually had to read her up and like warm her up with hair dryers off. So like she's literally she's standing there like literally naked and in the freezing cold. Like that's fucking commitment. Jennifer Lawrence couldn't even bother to do it because, you know, she made up a skin allergy all of a sudden after she had worn it in the first movie.
00:32:48
Speaker
Oh, they they shot in Vancouver, right? Or yeah, just really cold. It's not like it's not warm in Vancouver. Y'all. So yeah. But speaking of that scene when you know, she's speaking in micro how awesome is Nightcrawler in this movie?
00:33:02
Speaker
I mean, that opening scene, oh my god, every time I watch that scene, that is one of the greatest set pieces in any superhero movie, bar none. That is such an amazing use of Nightcrawler and his powers, tells you everything you need to know about who he is and what he can do. I don't know about who he is, I don't know what that tells you about who he is, but it certainly tells you about what he can do.
00:33:26
Speaker
One, I totally agree, it's one of the best openings of any superhero film. It's perfection, but when I started reading, maybe it's a personal view as well, when I was reading the X-Men and watching the cartoon series and stuff, Nightcrawler was always in Excalibur, so he was never part of what I associated with the X-Men.
00:33:49
Speaker
When they sort of came back and joined the team, I've always seen him as not like just off in the side. Then I watched this opening scene. It fully changed my perspective of Nightcrawler. Now I'm like, wow, this dude is like strong. Like what a cool power. This is actually like a very aggressive and strong power. I can't even think of another word, like strong power. Um, but in terms of his character, I feel like that's the one character they miss the mark on.
00:34:18
Speaker
I feel like they put the scars on his face and said, oh, it's a link to his religion. And it was maybe it was a visual way to show that he's a religious person. But it's kind of thought that I really think that he wasn't fun. He wasn't. What else? What other words? You're just going to describe Nightcrawler in three words from the comics. What would you say? Charming? Yeah. Jovial?
00:34:48
Speaker
Like charming, jovial, fun. Outgoing. What three words would you say to describe Nightcrawler from X2? I will use two words and those words are plot device. Okay. I agree with you on that. I think they did overdo the religious stuff. I mean, I know he's, you know, he's super Catholic in the comics too and everything, but like, you know, scarring himself with like the symbols from the, that was a little bit, that was taking the religious aspect a little bit too much.
00:35:16
Speaker
I kind of felt the same way when they did him in the animated series, when they had him in that episode. I'm like, you're focusing way too much on the Catholic side of things without forgetting about this whole other aspect to him. Although he did have moments in this movie. I love that when he's trying to introduce himself and everything like that. And I thought we got little hints of what Alan Cumming could have done if they'd done a better job writing the character.
00:35:39
Speaker
And I do think with these films because I think I feel in some ways we're very spoiled a little bit because at least with Marvel, you always go into these films and maybe the creators do too with the assumption or framework that like, oh, we're going to have more than one film to develop and give these characters these moments and like, you know,
00:36:00
Speaker
things in which they can develop but back then it's like well maybe you just have this one film and you have to pack it as much as you can so there's this element of like unfortunately you may have to pick and choose what aspect of the characters to emphasize and those things may have to be what serves the plot. I mean if you want to talk about under set characters like poor Storm like who is even Storm
00:36:23
Speaker
What I mean, what is other than again, awesome set pieces and her disappearing accent, which is a thing. But other than that, I'm like, who is this? This doesn't feel like storm. No, I mean, that I was thinking about that scene that she has with Nightcrawler when he says, you know, someone so beautiful should not be so angry. I'm like, that is.
00:36:45
Speaker
not storm at all. No, I mean, she could like kick your butt, but I wouldn't describe her as like, yeah, I thought going with angry black woman stereotype was, was, you know, such a disservice to that character. Definitely Harry Halle Berry has said, you know, many times that she wished that the
00:37:06
Speaker
the character in the films was more like the characters in the books, more of a leader. And I think she tried to have some moments in the later films, but all of the films with Storm, they've missed the mark. And I wonder whether that's because
00:37:25
Speaker
It's really hard to translate that character's strength to film. Well, here's my thought. And this happened too when it came out in 2003. The bulk of the film is set in this cavernous environment when they get
00:37:41
Speaker
to the alkali base, and I'm like, she's claustrophobic. Give the woman a moment where that happens, and she can work through that. What a cool moment that would have been. It doesn't come up as often now, but that was a key part of her character. It still is. You'd have to explain where that came from. Well, maybe you wouldn't. She could just be like, I'm not going down that tunnel. I'm not going down that tunnel. You could have little...
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah, there are little ways to hint at it, especially because the assumption is you're going to get right. You're in a tunnel. You're in a contained space. That would have triggered that, I think. But talking about characters. I was just going to mention it when Pat mentioned about the ensemble and about how everyone did get a moment. And even though we say Nightcaller's moment was not really in tune with his character or was the best use of his character might be a better way to phrase it.
00:38:37
Speaker
I think you could, when I watched X2 the first time I went with my partner at the time, he had never watched the cartoon or read the book, knew nothing about it. But when we walked out of the cinema, he was like, he could name the characters and he knew who they were. I took my brother to see the new mutants,
00:38:58
Speaker
and when we walked out of the film we went and had dinner and he said what was that character's name and I said which one and then he thought about it and he was like you know what I don't even know any of their names and I was like wow I can understand how you don't know any of their names that's really bad so I just want to give like a shout out again to how good the writing is because I think
00:39:21
Speaker
everybody in the film does get a moment. You kind of know what everyone's power is. You kind of know everyone's name, even though it's quite a huge cast. Well, and I think then you I may be wrong. It's been a while since I saw it. But I don't say in the new movie, I don't think they ever like referred to each other as code names. Like it was just all there. It's all it's all just their real names. Yeah. Well, that's even worse than because in X-Men, you've got two names and people still remember them.
00:39:51
Speaker
But they make a point of like, because in the first film, it was so memorable, with Wolverine sort of like jokingly like, oh, Storm, and Cyclops, they call you Wheels. So like, it's sort of like, it's inscribed in the audience's brain like, okay, these people got code names, like, that's what they're called. And I do agree, like, everyone got set pieces, if not
00:40:12
Speaker
the kind of character development I would like, like that moment when she was doing all those tornadoes, right? Like, I think when I got the DVD, I would just keep repeating that moment, because it was just so cool. Like, let's watch that again. Let's watch it again. We were talking with me and my buddy when he pointed out after we left the theater, he's like, he's like that, that female jet pilot. I wonder if there was Carol Danvers. So when the DVD came out, we were like going slow trying to see the name. Oh, is it? Yeah, it's not. Let's figure it out. Yeah.
00:40:41
Speaker
Um, but, uh, you know, speaking of characters who get the shaft though in this, like, I don't think any character suffered more in this movie or in this franchise as a whole than Cyclops. Like he just got so short change and the tragedy of it is.
00:40:55
Speaker
There were more scenes filmed with James Marsden. And the fight scene he has, the brief fight scene in the prison cell, that was a longer extended fight scene because James Marsden went up to them. He's like, I want to have something else with Cyclops, maybe to show that he actually knows how to fight. Because in the first movie, all I'm going is like this the whole time. So let's have a scene where he can't use his power so he has to fight. And so they had done this whole scene where he grabs one of the batons and he's fighting them off.
00:41:24
Speaker
all badass and stuff and it's like the whole thing happens off screen and we never get to see any of it and also like there's this also the scene shot about him being brainwashed there was some more character stuff with him and that too never ended up anywhere as far as i'm as i'm aware like not even on deleted scenes or anything like that but it was shot it was filmed and then you look at the first movie where
00:41:47
Speaker
almost all of the extended scenes in the first movie that were cut were with Cyclops. And it was like him talking to Gene, him dealing more with Logan, him talking with the professor. And you watch those scenes and you realize Marzen had a really good handle on Cyclops. Like he plays him cool and collected throughout everything. And even in the third movie, like he's only in it for five minutes, but he gives like the best performance in the goddamn movie. And it's like, poor guy got so short changed in these movies.
00:42:15
Speaker
I would say though that I think Storm is slightly more underserved because at least I could say like you know this this love triangle thing which we see so much of in these films is sort of like a key component of the character so we at least get some idea of what's going on with his interior life and his life outside being a superhero
00:42:39
Speaker
which I don't think we got with Storm. And perhaps that shafting says something about either the test audiences or maybe the editors. We just don't like this guy, so we're going to keep cutting his stuff. I think Storm at least gets the big fight scenes, right? She at least gets the big set pieces that sort of move those action scenes along, whereas Cyclops kind of misses out on both ends there.
00:43:06
Speaker
Well, the films can only go for two hours. Even though, you know, this one felt a little long. They still can only go for two hours. You can only fit so much in. And I think, like you mentioned earlier, Pat, the resource material is so rich. I think it's, I don't want to say it's lazy writing. It's not lazy, but it's a bit of a shortcut. In order to make Wolverine cool, you make Cyclops a nerd or boring.
00:43:34
Speaker
i think that if they're both cool because cyclops is cool he's certainly become much cooler now i think in the last 10 years and the character is he's definitely become one of my favorites um it's much cooler now than he was back then and i think it's it makes a better love triangle if both of the potential suitors are worthy yes instead of having one that's like blah and then the other one's like you know such a cool dude
00:44:05
Speaker
There's no need to disparage Wolverine, Oscar. I'm not disparaging you. I'm making a statement there. I was trying to make a statement in the recast of, you know, when, when the mutants come to the MCU that they make Wolverine five foot five. I hope they make him ugly and I hope they make him mean and angry. So David was Wolverine.
00:44:34
Speaker
I would sign up for that. I'm only 5'7", and I love that he was short. But I just think it'd be much cooler if they make it for Hugh Jackman. How are you going to replace Hugh Jackman? They have to go in the opposite direction. And by making it a bit more true to comics, I think that'd be a little bit cool. I think it'd be very cool. And I hope that it doesn't become the Wolverine hour. I know he has to be there, because he sells the tickets.
00:45:02
Speaker
but there's so much more, so much more than mine. I think one of the benefits of having the MCU and having Disney money is they don't, like, because back then it was like, okay, we can do an X-Men movie or we can do a Wolverine movie. We can't do both. Both, right. Was kind of thinking for a long time. I mean, now there's no reason you can't have a string of Wolverine solo movies and just have him pop into the X-Men movies on occasion too. So I think we can definitely get a lot more,
00:45:28
Speaker
mileage out of these other characters and just have Wolverine as a less of a presence in the big movies and instead focus more on his solo adventures for that, which I think would be great. I mean, I'd love to see that. Personally, I think in a lot of ways, Wolverine works best when he's solo. I think like I think a lot of his solo adventures are a lot more interesting than when he's with the X-Men. So I like, you know, put him in Madripoor, have him run around, do that kind of stuff. That'd be a lot of fun to watch.
00:45:56
Speaker
But also with the Cyclops thing, like if you look at that first movie, you know, and if you watch those deleted scenes, you don't notice it the first time you watch it. But when you watch on repeat viewings, you really realized that Marson is playing Cyclops. Very cool. Like that scene when Wolverine goes up to him and he's like Cyclops, right? He grabs and he's like, you want to get out of my way? And Scott just kind of looks at him and he looks over at the professor and like this silent word. He's kind of saying like, listen, you're going to tell your guy to back up before I bust his ass.
00:46:25
Speaker
And also when Wolverine, like there's this extended scene when he's talking to Wolverine in the room and Wolverine comes out just like, you ever seen real combat boy? And Scott just like, he's like this motherfucker right here. He's just like, you know, he's like, have you? He's like, you don't remember anything about your past. Do you? What do you? What the fuck have you seen? And he's just like all calm and cool and everything Wolverine is saying to him is just like bouncing right off him. He's just completely unaffected by it at all.
00:46:52
Speaker
And you kind of see that too in the first movie. Again, when they were talking about Jean and I think he responded with like, well, if I did that, she wouldn't be my girl. Exactly. Right. Yeah. If I had to say stay away from her, she wouldn't be my girl. Yeah, exactly.
00:47:10
Speaker
And then he throws it out the end anyways. He's like, and Logan, stay away from my girl. Anybody just kind of like, toss it out. Also, by the way, one thing I will say though about this film is, I don't know if you guys feel the same way, but like, it's so monotone, which I think is, I mean, we were just talking about quantum mania a little bit ago, but like, it's so monotone and like superhero films now, there's so much more of a color palette, but like with this film, it's like,
00:47:40
Speaker
It's dark or it's darker.
Visual and Costume Design in X2
00:47:44
Speaker
Yeah, I think a big part of that was just, I think, I excuse a lot of that because of just the time period it was in. Because I mean, back then, the image everybody still had of superheroes was like Batman and Robin, you know, Batman 66. So it's like superheroes are lame. And there's this whole idea of like, well, we can't do the full superhero thing. And I always say like,
00:48:09
Speaker
X-Men walked so Spider-Man could run. Because in Spider-Man, we got like the colorful costumes. For sure, yeah, for sure, yes. But also still, I think even at that, even in 2003, like it was kind of a thing where it's like, okay, we can excuse Spider-Man, we can excuse Superman, but everything else has to be more grounded and gritty and realistic. And that was kind of the idea. And I think it's not until you get to Avengers when you really have this explosion of like, yeah, we're gonna have colorful costumes now.
00:48:37
Speaker
The Matrix was also like a really big thing at that time as well, right? That was In the zeitgeist of having the the black leather was very very cool. I think it might have been a pushback from or a push away from Batman and Robin when they tried to do color in that and everyone was like No, absolutely also when you think about You know the X-Men too if you're gonna have a group of superheroes that
00:49:05
Speaker
It would make sense for them to be all in matching leather outfits. It makes sense for the X-Men more than like the Justice League or the Avengers or something like that. Oscar looks like he's contemplating that idea. Yeah, I am. I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking, is it? I don't know. I'm going to have to let that percolate in my brain for a little bit.
00:49:29
Speaker
Well, I think it makes a little bit more sense for the X-Men just because they're always a team. They have a history of matching outfits and all that anyway. And, you know, that whole idea of them being this kind of like search and rescue operation that Morrison played with, which talked about it, it fits that kind of idea. Whereas, and you could have that.
00:49:48
Speaker
play out where they're not really superheroes, they're just kind of out to protect themselves type of thing or to, whereas then you get to the Avengers or the Justice League, they're superheroes, right? You can't run away from it there as much. Yeah, look, I agree. I agree.
00:50:05
Speaker
No, I think you've explained that really clearly. I mean, I would prefer to have some sort of color in the costumes. I definitely agree with that. But if you're going to choose one property that has to be in black leather, I think it makes sense for it to be the X-Men. Yeah, I agree completely. I think the black leather is really, really cool. And cinematically, it definitely looks better. I don't know about in the books. I think I actually like the color. I like
00:50:35
Speaker
a bit more of tone. It doesn't have to be like super bright, bright. But I think the Avengers look really, really good. Bright, bright. I don't I can never imagine like the Avengers or Justice League or something like that being in all black leather. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. It just it just doesn't work. Like you can't imagine like Captain America running around in all black leather suit. It wouldn't make any sense to really be Captain America or Super Captain America agent of shield or something.
00:51:05
Speaker
I want to talk about Brian Cox, too, as Stryker.
Villain Motives in X-Men Films
00:51:09
Speaker
So they made that big change from the comic books, whereas a lot of this is based on God Loves Man Kills, but instead of Stryker being a preacher, here he's a military scientist. What do you guys think about those changes and what they did and how Brian Cox portrayed Stryker in this?
00:51:28
Speaker
I think he did a great job. I feel like, at least in the movies I've seen of him, he plays that kind of smarmy, really off-putting character very well. And I think that changes make sense, because it allows you to get what they needed from the character in the source material, but also allowing it to connect to the Wolverine plot line in an important way.
00:51:56
Speaker
And I don't know if like there were concern and I'm just making this next stuff up in my head. Like, I don't know. There's a concern about we didn't want to piss off the religious people. So we're going to make him we're going to make him a military officer. I think that that you wouldn't want to upset the middle America by demonizing religious figures too much.
00:52:25
Speaker
I admit I hadn't read God Loved, God Loved, Ben kills before X2. So I didn't think much. I didn't know much about the comparison. The only thing I knew about God Loved, Ben kills is that scene with Kitty Pride speaking, speaking out famous one there. Um, and that wasn't in the film. So I found that an interesting omission.
00:52:54
Speaker
I think Brian Cox was great. I think Stryker was a good villain. He had a good motive. A motive is probably the most important thing that a villain can have to make it make sense.
00:53:08
Speaker
about, you know, having his son and him dealing with all of that. That was good. The only thing that I found a little bit weird was like, I was like, okay, so the villain is using mutants as weapons, and it's a military man, but he wants to kill all the mutants. Wouldn't you want to keep them all as weapons? Yeah, that's a good point. I never consider that. But that's a good point. But I mean, that was a bit of a pothole.
00:53:34
Speaker
I think that was the means to his end, right? Which is killing all of them. I mean, so like, if they're all gone, I suppose there's no longer a need to have these kinds of weapons to deal with this problem, because they're all gone. Like, you wouldn't need Death Strike anymore, because there's no more Wolverine to deal with. I suppose is how I made it work. Yeah, but then there's going to be new ones born. It's the same kind of thing with the... Oh, you're right. You're correct.
00:54:02
Speaker
Yeah, you're not never going to get rid of them the mutant. So it just that kind of thing. I was like, Hmm, doesn't make sense, which I supposed to maybe speaks to just, you know, his mental state of like, you know, this doesn't this what you're doing already doesn't make sense on an ethical level, but just from a purely like trying to get it where you want to be. It also doesn't make sense because
00:54:23
Speaker
It's not that you're going to get rid of mutants now, but there may be more coming in the future. That's a good point. I even thought about that part that, you know, you're you're killing all the mutants that exist, but that's not going to stop new ones from being born. That's a good point. Yeah, I think the the supervillain plot in both this movie and the first movie are kind of weak in both of them. Right. It's like Magneto is using this machine to to turn everybody into mutants. And it's like then they'll be just like us and they'll fall and our cause will be like I think it's and then this one, too, we're going to use Cerebo to kill all the mutants.
00:54:54
Speaker
it felt like they were, they didn't quite know how to execute like some big supervillain plot. And I think like both of them, the supervillain plot, when you think about it, it doesn't quite hold together. So yeah, I agree with you on that. Strikers at least is more convincing to me than- It is, yeah. Because I don't think Magneto would ever do that. Also, yeah.
00:55:22
Speaker
The thing about Magneto and the first one that annoyed me is the fact that he's using Rogue to power the machine because he doesn't want to sacrifice himself. Magneto would be willing to do that in the comics, I think. If you guys ever read the original screenplay, it was that the adamantium actually powered the machine, so he needed Wolverine in the machine.
00:55:47
Speaker
And so, and then Rogue ended up saving the day in the original script, but they changed that because they're like, well, we can't have Wolverine be the damsel in distress. We have to have him save the day. Oh, no. Yes. That's interesting that they minimize, they minimize Rogue in order to pump Wolverine, Wolverine up. It's funny, you said you didn't like Rogue in the films. I actually really liked that they depowered her a bit and took her back to her original kind of
00:56:17
Speaker
state by just absorbing the powers and not always being like Carol Danvers kind of level mutant. I liked that. I didn't mind the depowering, but it's just like the character, just like the way they handled her character. She just doesn't feel like Rogue to me. Like I said, she feels more like young Kitty Pride when she was all shy and scared of everything. Yeah. We don't get any of that fiery personality that Rogue has. So that's what bones me out on rewatches of these movies.
00:56:48
Speaker
Well, you know, like I think every, they're contractually obligated. Every ex thing has to have the young ingenue character. Like you can't be without such that kind of. They did a similar thing in the animated series too. Like Jubilee in the animated series, she's much more kiddie pride-esque than she is like Jubilee in the comics. So they seem to always gravitate towards this kiddie pride type character, even if it's not kiddie pride in these other adaptations, which is kind of disappointing.
00:57:18
Speaker
Is Kitty Pryde like the, is she more like the template that everyone else is going off rather than? Well, at least in adaptations, because like, you know, like Perry said, Jubilee and Rogue aren't like that in the source material. But it seems like even when you're adapting stuff, someone always has to play that role in the story.
00:57:41
Speaker
And I think, you know, there was just to be like the audience perspective as well, right? For the new reader. But Oscar, you also made the point that how Nightcrawler wasn't really part of the main X-Men books when you started reading in the 90s. And yeah, that was true for me as well, because he didn't come in until what it was like the
00:57:58
Speaker
late 90s when Excalibur ended and they came back. Yeah, it wasn't until like 99 or something like that. Something like that. Yeah, and if you look at the classic X-Men team, the classic core of the X-Men team, it's like Wolverine, Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Shadowcat. When you think about the classic era of the X-Men comics, that was the core team, those five.
00:58:21
Speaker
And in these movies, you get Wolverine and Storm. But then Kitty Pryde is just a cameo. Nightcrawler has a decent role in this movie. Colossus just appears in that one scene. And then, ironically enough, he has more lines in his cameo appearance than he has when he's supposed to be a member of the actual team in the other movies.
00:58:41
Speaker
But it and and all and then you bring in the other because I think they're basing this more on like Brian Singer said that when he was doing research of it, a lot of his research was the animated series. So he's basing it more in like the 90s stuff than he is basing it on the classic comics. Hmm. That's interesting that he said that and then he went with God loves man kills.
00:59:02
Speaker
I think it's just because that story really captures the themes he wanted to. One of the things he was looking at was he was looking at the legacy virus, too, as one of the early ideas. I think he was planning to do more 90s-related stuff, but I don't know. Someone somewhere decided, let's do God Loves Man Kills instead.
00:59:22
Speaker
I think it really works. I think also that time period, the early 2000s, the evangelical right was such a political powerhouse in America that if you did anything to cross them, like you were basically dead in the water. So I think back then too, it would have been a real gamble to do that. But I think now I would really like to see an adaptation of God Loves Man Kills that cues a lot closer to the comics. Funny thing too, Bruce Davison who plays Senator Kelly, I just read this article about it the other day.
00:59:51
Speaker
Because I was wondering, I wonder what political party this he is in the comic books, if they ever mentioned it or not. And I was looking it up. And one of the things that came up was that in the early 2000s, during like the Iraq War period, Bruce Davison was lobbying Congress on behalf of like the arts and all that. And Republican politicians were always so excited to meet him because they loved Senator Kelly in the first movie.
01:00:16
Speaker
Some people did not get the point of the, I don't know, did you guys, there was, I'm not sure what state that politician was from and he was ranting about, of course. Oh, that was Florida. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. And he was like,
01:00:31
Speaker
These people are like mutants in the X-Men movie. And I think that the whole gist of his rant was like, there's these weird mutant freaks and we need to control them and get rid of them. Like, you did not get the point of that film, sir. Originally becoming the evil character. Right. Right. Do you guys ever watch How I Met Your Mother?
01:00:55
Speaker
I have not. Very, very occasionally. So I'm not sure if Oscar and I'm sure if you ever go, but you know, Neil Patrick Harris's character, Barney has this, he has this bit where he always identifies with the villains in movies. So like, you know, he says the karate kid is the story of Johnny Lawrence and
01:01:11
Speaker
who learns humility after suffering a defeat by a kid who cheats at the gate by doing an illegal kick. And he says Hans Gruber is the main character of Die Hard, right? He dies hard at the end. He's the central character.
01:01:28
Speaker
Which, at least for the karate kid thing, he may have a point after all the Cobra Kai stuff. Well, I think that actually influenced Cobra Kai. Oh, really? Oh, well, there you go. Because William Zabka actually played himself on How I Met Your Mother in the later seasons. Oh, I did not know that. And that's kind of cool.
01:01:47
Speaker
But yeah, I think it's funny because it's like it's also like, you know Ted Cruz was asked one time whose favorite hero was and he's like Oh Rorschach and it's like I think you missed the point of that character I Feel like but you could say I think okay I like that like I I think you can both admit that he's problematic and like him but it can't be that sort of like unadulterated like I like him and I admire him and I
01:02:10
Speaker
I think it was I like him and I admire him. OK. And I want to be more like him like it. But at that point, I think you missed the point of the texture. So it's like people say that this is a point of everything, though. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like that Sting had said that he'd had couples come up to him and say that, you know, every breath you take is is such a great song. We played at our wedding and he's just thinking like, get the fuck away from me. He was like, no, no, no. I thought you were going to say Roxanne, but that works, too. Yeah.
01:02:46
Speaker
I was just going to say, one thing I did want to mention with you guys when I re-watched the film is that there are so many standout scenes throughout this film. The opening scene is the big one. For me, the Bobby coming out scene was a big one. Then you have the
01:03:07
Speaker
Magneto breaking out of prison. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That is fantastic. Then can we let's mention the Lady Deathstrike scene. We haven't given the fight scene with Lady Deathstrike and Wolverine. So good. I found it interesting that in both the films Wolverine's nemesis was female. Hmm.
01:03:33
Speaker
Because in the first one, he was fighting Mystique. Mystique, yes, yes. And then the second one is fighting... I was going to say Sabretooth, but you're right. I think the scene with Mystique was a little bit... was more of a set piece than the scene with Sabretooth. For sure. That was the big climatic one. The Sabretooth Wolverine fight was just a little bit at the start, right? Well, in the third film, he fights Jean, technically. Yeah, so what's up with that? I don't know.
01:04:03
Speaker
No, it's a good point. I never considered that. But yeah, we're also in X-Men Origins, right? It's Silver Fox is kind of like one of the driving forces behind like a lot of problems that's happening in that movie, too. Yeah, there's a lot of Wolverine fighting women in these movies, isn't there? Well, no, in Viper, who was she? Yeah, in the Wolverine. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. God, she was such a waste of them all. Yeah.
01:04:32
Speaker
But you're right, I mean, there's potential to be really, really good and just lost it a little bit at the end. Are you talking about the Wolverine? Yeah, the Wolverine. I like it. The third act is really where it loses me. But like the up until then, it's great. I love it. Every everything up until the third act is perfect. I think they're supposed to be directed by Aronofsky as well. And then Aronofsky was to do it. Yeah, yeah.
01:04:55
Speaker
Yeah, he was all on
Wolverine and Action in X2
01:04:57
Speaker
board to do it. But then the Fukushima disaster happened. And he was like, I don't want to film in Japan. And it got moved on to somebody else with it. Yeah, I guess that did have that does that timeline does work out because came out in 2013. So yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think what happened with that movie is when they got to the third act, I feel like that was the studio getting nervous about the fact that there wasn't enough superhero type stuff. So like, let's throw we're in Japan, let's throw a big robot in.
01:05:24
Speaker
I know. I think the shark was jump when like, Oh, that's the silver samurai. Okay. All right. Great. Okay. Okay. So, uh, we were talking about, um, lady death strike was where we had left off right before I had to, had to pause up. Um, yeah, that was such a great fight scene and, uh,
01:05:45
Speaker
It's a shame that we don't get any sort of real characters. She's just basically a glorified henchman in this movie. And even so, she's nothing like the comics, right? No cybernetics or anything like that. She's just basically a female Wolverine. Yep, with more appendages that are sharp, I suppose. But I think Kelly, she did what she could with the material she was given. Oh, yeah.
01:06:13
Speaker
Um, but I mean, she's been in anything else. Oh yeah. She's been in a bunch of stuff. Um, she was on, she played a China white on arrow in the early seasons as well. And, um, I think the scorpion King, she was in that and a bunch of other stuff. She does a lot of like sci-fi type movies and fantasy type stuff. Like she's in a lot of stuff like that. Um,
01:06:37
Speaker
But yeah, Hugh Jackman is Wolverine. I really liked a lot of what he did in this movie. I loved that interaction when he comes back to the mansion. He has with Professor X, where he comes into Cerebro. And he's like, if you keep smoking that cigar in Cerebro, you'll live the rest of your days. I'm going to believe that you're a six-year-old girl, and I'll have Jean braid your hair. Which I think also does a great job of.
01:07:02
Speaker
sort of introducing the notion that Charles is dangerous, like what we should have known, given his power set, but he's always mostly portrayed as like this very benevolent headmaster. And then he says that, like, oh, right, that's a thing he can do. That's a thing he can really do. The scene in the museum gives a bit of an indication with that as well, right, when he suddenly makes everyone freeze.
01:07:26
Speaker
And that's like, well, he just doesn't even have to move. And suddenly, everyone's just frozen. Still, he can do what he likes. And then he does it. He also does it, too, at the end with the White House, too. Although the only thing that what I hate about that scene, though, is that not I don't hate it, hate them in these movies, but it's that it became a template that keeps being used in all the other movies then. And it just kind of gets old then. Hmm.
01:07:52
Speaker
It's kind of a thing as well where he's so powerful that he's going to get hijacked and then it's going to be the end of everything. So it's kind of like the most dangerous thing that can ever happen is Charles Xavier loses control. Well, and we see that in Logan. I think obviously they were paying a lot of attention to this movie when they were writing Logan because that's what killed the X-Men was Xavier's mind deteriorating and he loses control of his powers.
01:08:25
Speaker
Do you guys think that, do you guys think? Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I was just going to say, do you guys, I always thought that X2 was kind of like the best of the X-Men films and rewatching it, I still feel that same way.
01:08:41
Speaker
I think I need to rewatch Days of Future Pass to decide. That's a clip up there. First pass, Days of Future Pass, Logan, Deadpool, X-Men 2,
01:08:57
Speaker
If we're talking, we're, I'm separate, in my mind I separate the Wolverine and the Deadpool movies because I think they're, they're separate thing. And I think about just like the X-Men movies, just the teen movies. This one is still my favorite. Days of Future Past is a very close second, but the problem I have with Days of Future Past is that it
01:09:17
Speaker
It's not enough of a team movie, right? It's still just Wolverine, Magneto, Xavier, Mystique. It's just focused on those four characters. And also, I didn't like that we spend so much more time in the 1970s, because actually, when I watch Days of Future Past, I'm so much more interested in the future stuff and how the world got to that point. The future stuff, yeah. Oh, but the road cut has some story problems, but I actually like it more because of all the extra future scenes we get.
01:09:48
Speaker
I mean first class I like first class but I don't really like the portrayal of Xavier in it I love Magneto but it's still just and like all the other characters are basically just glorified special effects like they've got no real
01:10:04
Speaker
they don't really have any real characterization to them. Plus it's just kind of like, that was a weird movie where it's like, we were kind of a reboot, but we're kind of a prequel. We don't really know what we are. So there's a lot of continuity issues. And the first half of it I love, but after the, but when they get to the second half, it starts to fall apart for me. Like if I would, I would have loved first-class so much more if it was just Magneto Nazi Hunter.
01:10:30
Speaker
Yeah, I remember reading somewhere, I think it was after that film was done, or maybe it was before. I'm pretty sure it was after. There was talk about doing a Magneto solo film with Fassbender.
01:10:46
Speaker
That was actually because they were after the last stand kind of bombed. They were there. The whole idea that Fox had was we're just going to do a bunch of solo movies. So it was going to start off like like the X-Men Origins Wolverine. X-Men Origins was supposed to be like a brand. And so Wolverine was going to be the first one. Then they were going to have an X-Men Origins Magneto movie. And I think they're also going to do like a Cyclops and a Storm one as well at one point. But what happened was
01:11:15
Speaker
Wolverine bombed, and then they decided, okay, let's do first class instead. And they fold in a lot of the script from X-Men Origins Magneto into the first class script. That makes complete sense. Because that scene of first class where he's, you know, Nazi hunting in Argentina or something. Best scene of the movie. Best scene of the movie. Yeah, I think so.
01:11:39
Speaker
Especially like the train trains. I like the training, the training scenes as well, right? With Banshee's learning how to fly and Havoc's learning his powers. Like I really like that. That's probably that's one of the only like real training. We're training and learning to use our powers scenes. Yeah. I mean, we also get in last stand, we get that Danger Room sequence at the beginning, but it's kind of complicated. But yeah, I like that training montage as well. And it would have been nice to see a little bit more of more of that.
01:12:08
Speaker
Um, yeah, I mean, I like first class, but it's, and also I don't like as much as I like Kevin Shaw, uh, Kevin Shaw, Kevin Bacon's performance as Sebastian Shaw. That's doesn't feel at all like Sebastian Shaw, the character, it just feels like proto magneto. Sebastian Shaw in the film is not great. And, uh, the pay's powers are not really explained that well. And yeah, Kevin Bacon didn't really
01:12:39
Speaker
He was just cashing in the check. But also in this movie, I really like what they did with with Jean. I thought I thought Jean was this is where Famke Jansen really kind of nailed Jean for me. And I think this I think she did it perfectly. What do you guys think of her performance? I agree. I think she can play Jean.
01:13:04
Speaker
But she did a really good job. And if there was an opportunity in a way for her to come back, they should give it to her. Yeah, I think her performance in this one was... It's gonna be hard to top when they inevitably recast the character. I really enjoyed Femke as Jean Grey. Yeah, she's great. The only thing that I would say is that
01:13:30
Speaker
I would like to see a little bit, like I always look at Jean Grey as being, you know, super powerful, but also really maternal. She's a maternal character. She, for all those years, it was just her and the boys. And she's kind of like the mother figure in a way for all of her friends. And we didn't really see and see a lot of that really. Like I see her a little bit with the kids, but
01:14:00
Speaker
Not really. I would like to see a little bit more of that. But I thought, you know, her her big fight scene with Cyclops was really, really great. She put a lot of emotion into that as well. I like the scene at the end when she sacrifices herself. Yeah. Who could say anything bad about Femke Jensen? She's great. Yeah, I think that maternal stuff, I think you're I think they gave more of that to Storm actually in that scene when she's like fighting the kids on the monitor. So yeah, it's a good point.
01:14:27
Speaker
But yeah, the fight scenes in this movie too, like I love that the mansion fight scene is probably the best, that and the Nightcrawler scene are probably the best action scenes in this whole movie. Like- Yes, well you have to see Wolverine actually go berserker. It's funny because I remember in interviews, Hugh Jackman was saying, you know, it was like people were asking him, people were saying like, you know, I want to see Wolverine really cut loose. Like you get to see it in this movie. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're just saying that. And then I watched the movie and I'm like, oh, fuck, he was right. He really does get to cut loose.
01:14:56
Speaker
They said they wanted to push it as far as they could with the rating and they did. I think even like when you watch the other Wolverine films now with the R rating, the only difference with the way Wolverine is in this one was that there's no blood. Even when he's like stabbing them in the feet and in the chest and whatever, there's no blood. But the actual viciousness and his like ruthlessness of going crazy and screaming, that's all R rated.
01:15:25
Speaker
Well, I mean, that first scene when the when he grabs the guy who's who's shooting at Bobby and like and just like, you know, the wound heals and the claws come out and just shoves him up, just jams him right in and scream like, holy fuck. Yeah, and Bobby's like scared.
01:15:38
Speaker
Yeah. And then they see them go crazy, and all three of them are scared, and he's like, come on. And they're just like, OK, we'll go with you. The bloodlessness of it felt so weird in this viewing, too. And I think I just had canon that to say, maybe the claws cauterize the wound, and that's why there's no blood. Because it's so weird.
01:16:04
Speaker
he would stab, he would tear. That whole place should be dripping in blood. Maybe it's the fire claws they briefly gave him in the comics. I guess. No, but the only instance of blood was when he was being skewered by poor lady Deathstrike. I wonder why they picked that particular scene. Maybe it's unavoidable at that point. We really had
01:16:30
Speaker
also been in the mansion when they first go in, he gets that cut on his face, right? And it's just before he gets pissed off. And that's what triggers the berserker. I love Yeah, it gave us a give us a nice shot for all the kids and using their powers. And that that Colossus cameo, it's still like, except for the Deadpool movies, that's the best Colossus has been in the movies was just that one.
01:16:56
Speaker
Although I didn't like, when he goes, he's like, of course this is like, I can help you. And he's like, no, help them. And he thinks about it for just like one second and he turns around and goes with the kids.
01:17:08
Speaker
But I thought, he thought about it for like, not even half a second. It was just like, boom, done. I thought, oh, you could have pondered it, but just, you know. I remember when the theater, when he said that in the theater, I'm just like, yes, go with them. Go with them. We can see more Colossus action. Yeah. That's more special, y'all. Yeah. Yeah. But also he was drawing, which again, is another nice subtle touch of like, the fans will get it. Like it's an amusing scene, but also we get it. So that was very cool.
01:17:38
Speaker
Do you think perhaps the writers of the film were true X-Men fans, whereas in some of the other films they were perhaps not? I think... Because those little Easter eggs, now that we're mentioning them, there's a lot. There's so many. And there's a lot that doesn't cost money, right? It didn't cost money to put the names of the other mutants on the computer files in the government facility or to have Colossus be drawing.
01:18:08
Speaker
Now, Zach Penn wrote one of the drafts. I know that Zach Penn is a huge comic book fan, so that definitely tracks. David Hader, who wrote the first one, he also wrote a draft of this too, and then Michael Doherty and Dan Harris were brought in to rewrite it. I don't think Doherty and Harris are big fans. I think they're probably familiar with some stuff, but I think Zach Penn was probably the biggest comic book fan of the bunch, if I'm remembering correctly.
01:18:35
Speaker
I thought Joss Whedon had something to do with the extra first film. He had some uncredited rewrites on the first film, yeah. And the part that stayed was that unfortunate storm line, I believe. Yes, yeah. Which would have landed well in a different movie, but it was not that movie.
Easter Eggs and Character Influences
01:18:53
Speaker
It did not work, no. I mean, just everything about storm in these movies. Would it have landed, though?
01:18:57
Speaker
I think, I mean, I can see that fitting in like a Buffy episode, like, you know, if the tone was different, but but the Halle Berry's delivery was just, do you know what happens to a toad when it's struck? It's like, it was just the wrong register. It was bad. It was definitely bad. But I don't think that anyone could have delivered it any better. I think they're both as bad as each other there. But I've read that
01:19:24
Speaker
Speaking of Kitty Pride, apparently that Whedon based all of Buffy on Kitty. Yeah, he said that Kitty was a huge inspiration for him for Buffy. Which went full circle when he wrote The X-Men. Yeah, which is why she was such a focus of his astonishing run. I love, too, the scene in this movie is when Wolverine's in Bobby's house and he's sniffing for beer.
01:19:53
Speaker
And they're like, what are you a teacher of? And he's like, art. Art. But I love that too, when Bobby says, this is Professor Logan, even Logan's like, what? What? He could really shift physical education that may have been more appropriate. Karate, I don't know.
01:20:14
Speaker
That police scene as well when they're in the house is another really good action piece as well Not as much to stand out as the the prison breakout and the White House breakout, but still a really really good scene Especially when they they shoot Wolverine and then afterwards the cop who shot him watches Wolverine get up and walk into the jet He's like what the fuck? Yeah, the bullets coming out
01:20:40
Speaker
Oh, also speaking of Cairo too, I want to mention too, that scene when Magneto is talking to him on the X-Jet and he says to him, he's like, what's your name? And he says, John. And Magneto was like, no, what's your real name? And I really liked that. I think this is the first time that was established in either movies or comic books that the code names are not like superhero names, but they're like a mutant name, like a way to honor the mutant heritage as opposed to the name you were given by the humans.
01:21:09
Speaker
Yeah, a mutant cult show. Yeah. And just everything about Ian McKellen in this is Magneto.
Performance and Themes in X2
01:21:21
Speaker
I think he really elevated his performance. He really felt like the Magneto from the comics, more so in this movie than I think in any others. Like he had that whole regal feel to him.
01:21:33
Speaker
Ian McKellen's such a fantastic actor. And in the UK, he's been famous and revered for such a long time, especially in the theatre. And I think he's done a lot of Shakespearean work. And he obviously had that framework in mind when he was playing Magneto. And I think in this film in particular, even more so than the first, that you can really see, you can see that regalness and that
01:22:04
Speaker
that interpretation and it works so well. I mean, that breakout scene is just spectacular, right? That's just, I could picture that playing out exactly in the same way in the comic books. Like he just, you know, he just grabs him, he lifts him up, draws all the iron that Mystique injected into the guy. And then he flows, and he's just standing on that floating disc and just moving slowly through the scene. That works so well.
01:22:30
Speaker
Yeah, and I think what was really cool in this film is they advanced the mythos a little bit in the sense of Magneto and Mesquite are no longer really the villains, they're not the antagonists. Like the title says, they're all together. Right. Fighting against this other villain, which is a cool and logical progression, which unfortunately got dashed in the third film.
01:22:57
Speaker
But I would have liked to see them continue that more, like this notion that like, yeah, not all mutants are the same, there's like these different ideologies at play and different politics, but at the end of the day, really, like, they would have to band together to combat like other different more dangerous threats. Like, I really just enjoy it too. And I think one of the reasons I love the Kokoa era so much is this notion of like,
01:23:24
Speaker
you know, putting not putting aside their differences. I mean, obviously, they're still there, but sort of finding a way to work together to protect themselves is an interesting thing to see. I agree. And but I, but I, I agree, but with a slight different angle, where I think one of the things that makes the X-Men great is that the
01:23:51
Speaker
Protagonist and the antagonist, they both have the same goal, right? And that is to protect and look after the mutant minority. They just have different ideas about what's the best way to achieve that. And the beauty of that is that they do clash against each other with those different ideals, but they're also going to be able to join together naturally against a common foe without it being too much like
01:24:23
Speaker
I know, too forced. It doesn't have to be forced. It's a natural enemy. An enemy of my enemy is both our enemies, or whatever that phrase is. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Yeah. And I think it also speaks to, and it's really cool to see this notion of, look, minority groups are not monolithic. They're not all the same. There's different groups of different people within these groups, and then we have different ideas about
01:24:50
Speaker
What to do about whatever problems they're facing and I think that's really important to depict Yeah. Yeah, I think also too that um the politics in this movie in some ways it they're more realistic than they are even in the comics like I thought the You'd mentioned earlier about the scene with the president saying the last thing we need is to see a mutant kid The body of a mutant kid on the six o'clock news in the comic books. They're like, yeah, fuck throw giant robots at him kill them all But it's like yeah
01:25:17
Speaker
they're a little bit more realistic at the time. It's like, look, we're, yeah, we may want to persecute them, but we can't be obvious that we want to persecute them. So they're trying to find ways around that kind of stuff. So I thought the which is it's like an indictment of the times we're living in where I'm like, how refreshing how there's a thing you're caring about. So cool. I love it. I love this. I love this ethical nastiness you're doing. Yes.
01:25:46
Speaker
That is what we should aim for. Love it. Fabulous. Thank you so much. I mean, yeah, that's true. I was thinking that too when that scene came. I'm like, Yeah, it would make more sense now if you had a you had a president be like, Yeah, just fucking kill them all. Oh, that's sad. Yeah, it is. Yes.
01:26:05
Speaker
All right, well, that's a nice note to end this on. Yeah, I was about to say, wow. But anyway, I think- Go ahead and vote you all. Yeah, in retrospect, I mean, I still think this is my favorite of the teen movies. If we're talking, you know, adding in the Wolverine movies and the Deadpool movies, I think I would put this probably on par with the Deadpool movies, and then Logan would still be like the top one for me.
01:26:31
Speaker
Um, but, but overall, like, I mean, this, even with some of the changes, I think this movie gets a lot more right than it gets wrong. And it's, it still holds up. I mean, like you, like you said, this movie is 20 years old this year. It still holds up very well.
01:26:47
Speaker
I have to agree. I think this has inspired me to do another Days of Future Past rewatch to check in with my feelings to see what my number one is. But it's either number one or two for me. It holds up very well. And it's remarkable to me. Like, I don't know what you guys, but like you see a movie 20 years ago, it provoked certain kinds of feelings, right? It may not hit the same way again.
01:27:08
Speaker
But like, I'm sorry, when she was doing that levitating plane thing with a water, I'm like, Oh, it's the same kind of goosebumps. I'm feeling it again. That's weird, because I'm old and like cynical now. And that doesn't do that doesn't happen to me anymore. I'm like, it's hitting me the same way. So I think that's a testament to how good that film is. Oscar.
01:27:32
Speaker
for me, it reinforced my belief that, you know, some people say that the MCU has to thank Robert Downey Jr. and Iron Man for, you know, being the success that it is. Whereas I think that really it's X-Men 2 that it has to thank because it is better than the first one. And it was the first superhero movie that was like,
01:28:03
Speaker
rave reviewed by the critics and by the fans as well. It became a big huge commercial success. X-Men 1 was good and people enjoyed it, but X-Men 2 was great and people loved it. And rightfully so, it has stood the test of time. It's better than some of the films that are coming out even now. I would say a lot of the MCU films as well.
01:28:25
Speaker
I watch a lot more of the MCU films than the DC films. I haven't seen Shazam or Black Adam or anything like that. Shazam is good. Black Adam, don't waste your time. Shazam 2, also don't waste your time. Oh, okay. I haven't seen that one yet. Although I did just see the new trailer for The Flash drop this morning and that looks... Ezra Mill is a sociopath, but man, Michael Keaton looks so good in that movie.
01:28:50
Speaker
Ezra Miller is causing the studio such a headache Such a headache, but I don't think we're gonna see any Bryan Singer X-Men films again. No, no, I mean, yeah He's a monster. So yeah, we're not gonna see any more of him. His career is pretty much over with now But for his art the films are great. Well, yeah, I mean like it
X-Men in the MCU
01:29:14
Speaker
It's disappointing to say that the, also like one of the best, you know, I mean, it's the same thing with Josh Whedon, right? He directed one of the greatest superheroes of all time with Avengers, but he's also a fucking monster. So, I mean, it's a similar thing with Singer too. But I am really curious to see what will happen now once they bring in mutants into the MCU and seeing how they work all this stuff in. And it'll also be interesting because they don't have to be as restricted as these movies
01:29:43
Speaker
either felt they had to be or maybe because also Singer too wasn't a fan of the comics so he didn't have that kind of mentality going into them as well. So it'll be really interesting to see what we do with someone who and one thing about the MCU is they find people who really do love the source material. So I'm really curious to see what we're gonna get out of that. What are
01:30:06
Speaker
What are your ideas or maybe ideas or wish lists of how should they do it? How do you want them to do it? To bring the mutants in?
01:30:17
Speaker
I've said this a lot of times and I still think this is the best way. I'd start with the idea that mutants have always existed, but they've just been in like so many small numbers that they haven't even. Same, same. And like, you know, maybe Nick Fury was working with Xavier Magneto transporting, you know, mutant refugees to Krakoa or something like that. And because Krakoa can move all around the place, it's never been able to be detected. But after the blip,
01:30:44
Speaker
like you know in an endgame rocket says that you know it's ground zero for all this cosmic energy that's never been seen before. Wanda got her powers jump started by the by the the mind stone so did Pietro so that whole idea that
01:31:00
Speaker
the Infinity Stone's cosmic energy has jump-started mutations. So now, whereas maybe their grandchildren or their great grandchildren would have become mutants, now instead it's happening several generations earlier. And so there's this big explosion of mutant kind, and then you've got this conflict brewing between Xavier and Magneto. That's how I would do it, is to introduce the idea of mutants.
01:31:21
Speaker
And I think, so I know it's been very divisive among the fans and the comics, but I think the whole notion of the resurrection technology is such a boon and a gift to the films because once you do that, again, you're like free of restraints and you can say things like, why indeed? Yes, Magneto was in World War II. Here's why. Now, I don't know how that's going to land with movie fans, but like it's such a gift. Yeah, it's really hard for the origin, right? Yeah.
01:31:51
Speaker
Because the time is a constraint, but I don't know if they're going to use that at all, but it's such a interesting way to sort of maybe resolve that problem. I think you could do it one of three ways. Either you could do it, like you said, you could use the resurrection technology or just say that he's long lived because of his secondation or something like that. Oh, well, no more. No more. They've already established, right? Right, exactly. He's lived so long.
01:32:15
Speaker
Yeah, that too, that too. Another way you could do it is what Miller did in the Ultimate X-Men, where he said that Magneto is the descendant of Holocaust survivors, is I think what was kind of hinted at instead of him actually being in the Holocaust. Or the third option is you could just maybe not the Holocaust, but some other, you know, mid genocidal event, like, you know, the
01:32:39
Speaker
the victim of the Serbian wars or something like that or anything like that. I mean, unfortunately, there's no shortage of human atrocities. I'm just gonna say like, we have options now. Thank you. Yeah, great.
01:32:53
Speaker
I think the other thing I would do also is I would keep, one of the things I would love to happen, I know this won't happen, but I would actually love to see them do like an X-Men series on Disney Plus, be able to play around with more character stuff, and then save like big set piece stuff for like an X-Men movie. So like cap off each season or something like that with the big budget movie. I think would be really cool.
01:33:16
Speaker
They won't do that. I know they're not going to do that, but that would be a really cool way to play around with the character dynamics, really get to build up the cast and everything. And I would have Wolverine off on his own, introduce Wolverine in a separate movie and then bring him into the X-Men movies later. So he doesn't have to be such a big focus. Those would probably be the big things I would do. For me, I think they would be better off hitting it with the multiverse angle.
01:33:41
Speaker
I don't know as a like as a comic book reader of you know 30 years that I have I still can't reconcile in my head why people love the Avengers and hate the X-Men and you know if you gain your power some mystic way then you're fine but if you're born with it then you're a muti and we hate you and just doesn't
01:34:07
Speaker
sit right and I think general audiences won't really get that as well by putting the two of them together. I think I like the idea of them being multiversal and just having their own universe and interacting through Kang or something like that. I don't want them to all be together in one MCU. That's why I think the Infinity Stones actually works for that because they're
01:34:34
Speaker
the thing that brings about mutants is this thing that almost destroyed humanity. So I think that's a good way to kind of instill that fear into the public. I think your way is good, but I think the general
01:34:55
Speaker
general movie-going public is going to have a hard time reconciling the anti-movie hysteria and the love of Avengers. I mean, you never know, because there's one point when people would say that the general movie-going audience couldn't reconcile the idea of the multiverse. And now we've got tons of multiverse stuff. That's true. I look forward to being proven wrong.
01:35:18
Speaker
I hope I'm proven right. We are getting some multiverse stuff at least because we got Jackman coming back up in the Deadpool
Podcast Promotion and Support
01:35:28
Speaker
3. So that's going to happen. We've already seen it in the multiverse of madness. Yeah, with the Professor X. That's right. Yeah. But I was going to say, while they're planning a, I don't know if you guys have heard, but in San Diego, they're having an actual live Hellfire Gala, which
01:35:46
Speaker
may just be a bunch of cosplayers larping around, which is not a terrible thing. But is this a test thing? What are they doing? It just floors me. I'm like, is this reality that I'm living in? Never in a million years would I have thought, OK, this is a thing. This is a thing they're doing. Crazy. OK. All right. Well, that does it for this episode. Guys, thanks so much for coming back. This is a lot of fun to talk about X2 with you. But why don't you tell people where they can find your stuff?
01:36:19
Speaker
Oscar, you can start with you. You can find me on Twitter. I do some ramblings every now and then. It's ODAT220. You can find me on Tumblr at Perfect Fabric JKilling Machines. And if you want more X-Men content, I'm also on another podcast called Krakoan Exports, where we are currently reading through and talking about the comics coming out in the current era of the X-Men.
01:36:48
Speaker
Great. And also, go back and listen to E4 Evolution examining Grant Morrison's X-Men that the three of us did together. It was a fun podcast. We covered the entire Morrison run from 114 up until 154, I think it was the issues. And
01:37:06
Speaker
Yeah, it was I recently re listened to the last of those episodes and it's such a lot of fun talking about those really gave me a new appreciation to go back and re examine those issues with you guys. And so you guys should definitely check that out. I think you'll enjoy it. But also you can check out superhero cinephiles.com is the website. Super cinema pod is our Twitter and Instagram handles and
01:37:29
Speaker
If you sign up for the Patreon page for as little as a dollar a month, you get these episodes a week in advance, plus you get access to the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club, where we talk about comic books and graphic novels about once a month. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time.
01:37:44
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:38:05
Speaker
If you're interested in reading some comments and don't know where you should start, plus you'll get access to all episodes of the main show a week before everyone else. On all of this for as little as just a dollar a month, all you have to do is go to patreon.com slash supercinemahot and you can sign up at any subscription amount to get started. Thanks so much for your support and please don't forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
01:38:48
Speaker
Thank you for listening. And as always, good night. Good evening. God bless.