Transcript
Speaker: Well, how come? And we're back in the room. We're back in the room. Okay. And you've got something about nuts, Mr. Woods. I do. I do. Because on the last podcast, in two recent previous podcasts, you've mentioned how you liked the Marmite
Speaker: cashews. So while I was in the UK, I bought a packet of Marmite cashews. Here we go, look, I'm just holding it up to the camera. Exported, not only did you buy them, you exported them to the States. Right, and I thought it would be a good thing, because I thought they sounded terrible, that I would try them
Speaker: on air as it were. You've not tried them yet? No! Of course not. Always thinking of the pod. You always have to think of the pod. Alright so here we go so this is Marmite which if any Americans are listening
Speaker: I'll start dribbling. You'll know why. Oh, right. Oh, oh, nice. Marmite is a yeast extract. In fact, it's so unique that only really, I, I wouldn't really know how to explain it to an American. Apart from it's like, like a very salty, um, savoury, uh, taste. Apparently it's a by -product from the beer distilleries.
Speaker: Okay, well that makes it sound almost tempting. All right, so I am going to, let's open these up. I like cashew nuts. You know what, I am so so about Marmite. I don't sit in the love it or hate it camp.
Speaker: I remember you cashew nuts because you generally used to, when we used to go for a curry in England, you used to get a curry that quite often had cashew nuts in it. Yeah. I think that was a chicken cashmere. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Here we go. I'm holding it up to the camera for those on the, on the, on the YouTube popping one in.
Speaker: Initially, not a huge Marmite flavor right off the bat, which is good. Yeah. My God, it is a subtle Marmite, isn't it? It is, yeah. I think, you know, like how some things like when you start to eat a lot, the kind of flavor builds up a bit. Yeah.
Speaker: but then you get the amazing thing. There's the Marmite, it's the same with Twiglets, which is the same product essentially. What you get after you've, if you do like I do as an ADHD, you binge eat them, right? And within a nanosecond, you're right at the bottom. And not only do you get to collect the crumbs and the residue at the bottom, you then get to lick your fingers with the yeast extract.
Speaker: Oh, that's, oh yeah. I'm salivating. On that bombshell. Welcome to ADHDville.
Speaker: It's right, family, down the street, through the courtesy of Fred's two feet.
Speaker: Yeah, random. Hello, I'm Paul Thompson. And I was diagnosed with the neurologic new new. Wow, this is hard. I was diagnosed with the neurological naming disaster that is ADHD just three months ago.
Speaker: I'm Martin West and I was diagnosed in 2013. Okay, so we're just two mates. So we're just two mates who, by coincidence or not, after 39 years of friendship, discovered that we're co -AHD -ers. Hurrah.
Speaker: Now, it's really important to say that this is an entertainment podcast about adult ADHD. It does not substitute for individualized advice for qualified health professionals. No, no, no. Don't take any advice from us, especially Martin.
Speaker: We're just here as a kind of all -inclusive ADHD park bench with a room for everyone, including your double gangners, your alter egos, your body doubles, your chaperones, and even your best buddies, okay? Still here? Great! Then grab your jet packs, your pedalos, your space hoppers, or any other transportation methods.
Speaker: And let us take you to ADHDville, an imaginary town that we've created in our minds, where we like to explore different parts of ADHD.
Speaker: OK, and we start off. Oh, was that you done? Oh, yeah, there we go. And we start off as always at the town hall in the mayor's office, where we the joint mayors of ADHD will take care of business. All right. So so looking at the agenda.
Speaker: There's only one item on our agenda. This is a specialist subject episode. Yes. And we're going to be talking about all things ADHD masking.
Speaker: Yes. Yes, we are. We are talking exactly about that. It's quite a lot to unpack. As I say, there is a popular way of sounds like YouTube podcast kind of chat language. Let's unpack unmasking. No, let's unpack masking. Let's unmask masking. Let's unpack the mask.
Speaker: Yeah. So where should we go and do that today? Well, I think we go downtown, aren't we? We are. Because we haven't been downtown for a while. And I kind of thought that downtown, especially in an American sense, kind of has a sense of like,
Speaker: of a shadiness sometimes so it's kind of like you have to be a little bit more on your guard yeah it's not uptown
Speaker: Right. Yeah. It's downtown. All right. Well, let's jump in there. I always get confused between uptown and downtown. Yeah. I get confused. Which one is the like, you know, the posh part, which one's the less posh part? Uptown. Top ranking. Billy Joel. Billy Joel. Uptown girl. Right. She's been living in the downtown world. Yes.
Speaker: That's how you know. Right. She was posh. He wasn't. He was just a mechanic. Right. Okay. So you have to be a little bit more on your guard. Arguably not downtown. So let's jump in the mayor's car and let's head downtown.
Speaker: Nice. I know, right. All right. So we're talking about masking. It sounds a little bit Hammond -y. I love a Hammond organ.
Speaker: Yeah, there's like a organ. Yeah. The Hammond organ. Up there in my top 10 list of favourite instruments. Classic album, classic organs of all time. Hammond. Yeah. It's basically because it's a valve thing, isn't it? Hammond is basically a valve instrument. You know what? I should know.
Speaker: I'm not entirely, you know, I will have to go and go and look. Okay. Not now though, we've got a podcast. Yeah, crack on. Yeah, there's a quite, it's actually quite a lot. I know I've said this a lot. It's quite a lot to a pack about masking. I think we were talking about earlier about a definition
Speaker: of a masking. You've got something, haven't you, on this, Martin? I've got, all right. So we like to kind of kick off with just describing what it is that we're talking about. A masking is when a person with ADHD, also with autism as well.
Speaker: acts in a sociably acceptable way to fit in with those around them. This typically involves camouflaging symptoms, controlling impulses, rehearsing responses and copying the behaviours of the neurotypical people around them. It's almost a survival tool. Yeah.
Speaker: Um, and that's, and that's, okay. Bang on. That's the kind of, sorry. Bang on. I'd say that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Hit the, it resonated.
Speaker: All right. G'do. It gets the poor tick. Talking of ticks. Actually, not talking of ticks at all. Apparently, one in three ADHDs have masking issues, as said by our friend, Dr. Edward M. Halliwell, which is his amazing, biggest, greatest experts on ADHD. One in three? I would have thought it'd be three in three.
Speaker: Well, I would have thought so too. So I'm not quite sure what criteria he would use for what masking is and isn't. So I think there must be degrees, right? A little masking, a lot of masking. So I don't know where he puts his line.
Speaker: Yeah, for what he constitutes as where it draws a line in the sand with this on a beach somewhere in the Caribbean. Yeah.
Speaker: But, I mean, my list, we'll get onto it a bit later, but my list of masking signs, infinite in theory. Well, mine's not infinite, because we haven't got that much time. But there's potentially a hell of a lot of masking signs out there. And we're all pretty much unique, right? I joined Dan, what, 12, 13, easily. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we should run through some, though.
Speaker: Yeah. No, no, totally. Totally. I've got, before we do that though, I've got this, I've got this thing here. Like, let's pretend there's someone neurotypical watching this podcast. They won't, but just say they will. They won't be. Right. Right.
Speaker: You can say, well, everyone masks, right? You and I have had this discussion. It's like, everyone bloody masks. You know, you might mask, everyone, neurotypicals, they might mask because they got gender dysphoria. They might mask because of their sexual preferences. They might have dermatology issues. They might have
Speaker: might must because they have their ethnic diversity thing going on and they're just trying to conform and everything. I personally think there's some neurodiversities that haven't even been discovered yet that are just going to splinter off and at some point we start thinking
Speaker: What does even neurotypical mean? You know, it's like, it was just a case. I think it's a lot of cases about discovery of what neurotypical and divergent actually where the boundaries lie. Um, then probably the biggest one I'd put in this list of what reasons why people, why people who were neurotypical, why they would mask low self -esteem. Boom. You know.
Speaker: And, you know, we could spend an hour just listing all the ways neurotypicals must because of low self -esteem, right? Yeah, I would also argue that low self -esteem
Speaker: can also, also results from masking. So, so it can lead to masking and actually it, it also, it can be a symptom, offshoot, a cause and symptom. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. So, but anyway, we're talking about, I just thought I'd mention that because like people say, well, you know, it's not just neuro diverse people, but so what is the difference? What is the difference? I've put here, the difference is that a neuro diverse person could have any of those things we just mentioned. Okay. But
Speaker: not just of those issues that they could have, they also have to, they grow up, develop as human beings in a cultural system that isn't set up for us, right? Even more reasons to mask, you know, mask the masking, if you will, you know, work practices that aren't built around, are built around us. Psychology practices that aren't always
Speaker: in our favor, you know, some sometimes through pure ignorance, other times for you know, have other reasons or purely because they're just not maybe have got their finger on the pulse of what ADHD is about, you know, it's not a given, shall we say that psychologists are knowledgeable about about neurodiversity. But
Speaker: And, you know, but also put into context the fact that just going back, because we're older aged, we were diagnosed older and later in life, psychology in the 1970s and 80s, you just forget it, you know, you know, imagine we're trying to like, make our way we were like, you know,
Speaker: formative years. And it's like, at some level thinking that we're different and weird or, you know, something, what's going on in there? Then knowing subconsciously, you weren't like everyone else, not getting any help from anyone. And then even bureaucratic and administrative systems, you know, they're not set up for us. There's all these hurdles and obstacles on top of all the other reasons that we might mask.
Speaker: Mm hmm. And probably do mask. OK. So what you're saying? So now I'm just like putting it like context. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Context. Yeah, so what you're saying is is that the the difference in in masking from a neurotypical to a neurodivergent person is that for a neurotypical person, what you're saying is that the world is set up for you.
Speaker: And even though you may mask in it for your boss or whatever, it takes a lot less energy to be in a world that actually works in the way that you work versus a neurodiverse person who has to mask a hell of a lot more to fit in with a world that really doesn't work the way that they work.
Speaker: Yeah, I guess it's like we kind of have layers of more layers of masking.
Speaker: It's just more energy, right? Yes, there's more masking, which requires more emotional and physical energy, which, you know, causes, you know, burnout, exhaustion, exhaustion, you know, and we, and I'm sure we'll, we'll come on to all the other kind of things. All right, so that's why
Speaker: That's why it's different, right? For, you know, typicals versus neurodivergence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I said at the top, you know, that, you know, maybe people that were neurotypical watching or listening to this podcast, but it could also be people that just started their journey too. So, shall we move on to typical, some typical masking signs then go for it.
Speaker: Yeah. Some more, some, I should remind people, this is an entertainment podcast. And, you know, I say that because a lot of this stuff is, can be really personal, right? It can be really personal. I've got one here. I mean, there's an obvious one at the top of the list, alcohol and drug use. Okay.
Speaker: can be used as a masking sign. Paradoxically, though, it can also be used as a symptom of masking, not just a sign of. So it's an unusual one of that. But after that, I've got humour.
Speaker: I used, I think it's probably the, one of the most powerful tools I, musky tools I used as a growing up as a kid was humor. I used humor to avoid getting into fights, basically avoid being bullied. Um, and it generally worked. I've got pretty good at it. You know,
Speaker: Yeah, no, as a humour, as a defence mechanism in schools. Yeah, no, that was huge and especially self -deprecating humour as well because, you know, because if you can make a joke about yourself first, then others can't.
Speaker: Yeah. And of course, English humour is particularly renowned for having self deprecating humour.
Speaker: Right. We must all be riddled. Riddled. He's so fucking up. But yeah, Robin Williams, famous stories, you know, countless other famous comedians, you know, it's yeah, funny, funny, funny until it's not, you know. Right. It's the, it's the sad clown, right? That's the, that's the, that's the trope.
Speaker: Apparently Robert really used to have people go up to him and interrupt him and he's like walking around a shopping mall or something. People go up to him and say, make me laugh, literally. Not, hello, my name is Paul, it's really great to me. Okay, make me laugh. And he said, what? What? So really, I'm not in the mood. And they would like, fuck you.
Speaker: I've got poor friend and life partner choices. Sometimes simply because, you know, you maybe develop a group of friends because they're more extroverted than you. Best of all, it can be a form of, I think, form of masking. Also choosing a partner was particular
Speaker: particularly, um, demonstrative, you know, and slight so you could kind of convenient part of person to sit in the shadow of, you know, very convenient.
Speaker: Yeah, no, I can see, you know, if you're trying to fit in with society, if you choose a partner that clearly knows the rules and fits in with society and, you know, then you can kind of just, you can just sort of glom onto that.
Speaker: person so that you can then fit in society as well. I put sandbags around you. Right, it's like hiding in plain sight.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Or, I mean, on the trickier side of that, you develop relationships with narcissists, you know, she wouldn't be masked. If you want your personality masked, choose a narcissist. There you go. That'll do it. You know, they want you to mask. They actually have, I think, some kind of instinct, like nasty instincts. They want you to mask as much as you can.
Speaker: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They want you to become the person they don't want to be, basically narcissists. That's what they fucking want. And they're good at it. They're really good at it very often, you know? I'm not going to give them a medal, but you know, I've been in that. I've been in situations like that. I've found myself in a narcissistic relationship thinking,
Speaker: There you go, Paul. You know, that's what, is this what you want? Is this what you wanted? Okay. There you go. You got it. You know, boy. Yeah. I've managed to avoid them. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they've got stimming.
Speaker: Yeah, pretty standard one, but everyone stings in very different ways. Well, this is, so masking is the suppression of stimming, right? So it would be, it would be where you would be stimming and you're masking it. So what you do, so it would be like you, you like sit on your hands, for example, so that you stop your hands wandering around. Right.
Speaker: that that's so if you're unmasked you you you stim freely if you mask because it looks weird right oh i thought it's the opposite okay so so it's it's the these it's the physical suppression of that to like stop you know that kind of comes from your parents kind of going stop fidgeting yeah
Speaker: And you, and in the workplace, right? If, if, if you work in an office or something without, with other people, you're, you know, like you're, you're having to, to, to suppress your natural rights.
Speaker: Yeah, so I thought it was the opposite. I'm not saying you're wrong at all. Tell me how are you? I see it. I see it that actually stimming is a way of suppressing therefore masking something that could potentially be a much more violent physical reaction.
Speaker: Oh, all right. So I think stimming is suppressing. So therefore masking in itself. Right. So right. Stimming is the is is a way of self regulating yourself and calming your mind. Right. From the from the anxieties that you're feeling. Right. So it's a way to control that.
Speaker: And that is a coping mechanism, I guess. And then, I guess, yeah, so I get that part. And I guess where I kind of go from there is like, well, the masking part is the, how do we fit into a normal world that would be to suppress the stim, which to your point is like,
Speaker: well, then you're having to put even more effort into trying to control the anxiety. So if you if you suppress the thing that that gives you relief, if you feel like the self -regulating thing, then that anxiety doesn't go away. It just it just builds. You would end up having to like
Speaker: deal with that anxiety and it will come out in a different way and I think that's where you end up with burnout and the exhaustion and depression and anxiety and it was just kind of...
Speaker: Because some, some people will use some, some people in the ADHD community, they really have a very strong, physical, they demonstrate their neuro, neurodiversity in a very physical way, you know, I know someone personally, that is incredibly fidgety.
Speaker: incredibly fidgety in my mind, but I, you know, I, I, it's quite possible. I'm overthinking it, but in my mind, it's like, you know, you have to go to a fireworks bonfire night and you have to like the twizzle thing that goes, Oh yeah. That sparklers. Yeah. That's like sparklers. Right. That's just before it turns into like, like a massive firework, you know, it's like the stimming. It's a little sparkler, but actually what it's doing is it's pressing like a massive firework that goes off and
Speaker: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. I totally get what you're saying. Yeah. Okay. Your sounds more logical. Okay. All righty. Next to the list. Moving on. I've got tattoos. Oh, all right.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. Cool. I haven't, I haven't come across that one. So it's like, it's like clown covers their face in makeup.
Speaker: Um, you know, clown is classic mask. Uh, no, it's like, it's like, we're talking about before about the sadness of a clown. It's like, it's like, uh, yeah. Well, I mean, I've covered your tattoos. Yeah. I don't even have so much as a full stop. Right. I've got about 25 or 26 tattoos by now. Um,
Speaker: I mean, I don't know. Distraction is a bit like wearing, like, you know, I don't know. Maybe it's the opposite of masking. It's like, hey, look at me.
Speaker: Well, I mean, you can argue that it's like, well, if they're visible tattoos, then it's like, right, well, I belong to a certain group of people. Yeah, I you know what? I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker: I come from a place where when I grew up and I had a lot of shame around my physical attributes, okay? I didn't wear short sleeve shirts until I was in my late 20s, because I just hated what I interpreted perceived as being very thin arms, and I never wore short sleeves. So for me to wear, for me, I think for me personally, tattoos,
Speaker: No, it's the opposite. I'm talking my, my, my way round and actually say it's the opposite of masking, you know, where I used to hide my arms. I actually now, you know, say, look at my fucking arms covered in tattoos.
Speaker: Yeah. Okay. So let's take that off the list, maybe. I would say, I would say if, if, if anyone has a point of view about tattoos, um, and how it relates to masking would love to hear that because, um, um, I'm not,
Speaker: I don't know where the... About all of these, too. Alcohol or drug abuse. I sometimes find alcohol really brings my personality out.
Speaker: Sometimes. It depends how, you know. Oh, yeah. Because it frees me up. Dutch courage, as we call it in English, you know, in England, English. Do you have that in the States, Dutch courage? I don't know, actually, to be fair.
Speaker: I was like yeah Dutch we call it in England we call it when you have a beer or two call it Dutch courage because it helps you to actually bring your personality out so it's like weird it's a paradox yeah because there is a complete opposite version of that
Speaker: which I know we've talked about before, which is people who have trouble and use alcohol to mask because if you're a little bit drunk, it's easier to fit in.
Speaker: with everyone around you. Because they're all drunk, they're all being, you know, they're all kind of like doing their thing and they're all drunk yourselves and then you have a drink and then it's easier for you. It's less effort, right? It's easier for you to fit in, to mask,
Speaker: within this group. Even to some people, they actually really scared the idea of not going out either drugged or drunk. It scares them. Oh, I don't want people to see the real me. I'll get drunk and be, you know, life and soul of the party.
Speaker: Right. Where that might be different is if you went out and all your friends were neurodivergent and were much happier, you know, being unmasked, you know, and then if you had a drink, that kind of could give you a bit more courage to kind of unmask yourself. Right.
Speaker: So there's a party I'd go to, definitely. Right. And maybe those are the parties that you go to. Maybe that explains why. Because if you're a diver, just all of a sudden that will go, yeah, let's come out of our fucking shells. Come on. Right. Whereas if you're right. So that's really that isn't really a mask. Yeah, that's that's helping using alcohol to help you just to give you a bit of Dutch courage to unmask in front of
Speaker: uh people who feel safe around whereas if it's your if it's your work party and your bosses are all there it's like oh god no uh yeah yeah yeah yeah i've got i've got some stories i've got some stories but yeah i've got i've done some bad things on that far but anyway all right specifically a party a work party right uh i've got also uh people pleasing oh okay
Speaker: not yes quite so debatable as the others no i'm just eating these nuts yeah damn you very nice took us through it martin have you got like like uh some aftertaste you know having how long have you had how long how many have you had like four or five
Speaker: Yeah, I would say it's a very subtle Marmite taste. It's not strong, is it? It's not too strong. No. I mean, if you didn't like Marmite, you could still eat these, I reckon.
Speaker: Yeah, okay. So yeah, people please I've got avoiding basically, I, from my personal point of view, people pleasing for me is avoiding confrontation, essentially. Like, okay, and avoiding, avoiding communicating, you know, actually how you really feel and think. Mm hmm.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, there's not particularly debatable, I think. Even it comes down to, but people may be, it's not debatable, but there's some nuances around it because people do sometimes in different ways. People just do a lot of nodding, you know, just to like,
Speaker: So, okay, just like, okay, I'm not agreeing with anything you're saying really in my head, but I'm just going to nod. So you'll just keep going. And you'll think I'm agreeing with you. And everyone's going to be okay. You know? Yeah, I do that.
Speaker: I do that. But even the way we dress, people pleasing, I did that for a bit. If I look back at myself about how we used to dress, I think, what were you doing, Paul?
Speaker: I was people pleasing. It's like, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't dressed how would want to dress. You know, if I think, but look back at myself with horror of photographs of me, you know, 30 years ago with total horror, it's like a splatter movie.
Speaker: Right. It's like you watch Exorcist. If you watch the Exorcist, the Exorcist is like watching like Pride and Prejudice compared to, you know, me looking at photographs. What kind of clothes are we talking about here? So what were you, what was your people pleasing to be honest? Like things that I think that my boss would like me to wear?
Speaker: or my dad would like me to wear so it's going to be kind of comfortable more casual labels no worse than that middle class right what what middle class middle middle class
Speaker: Middle class. Yeah, God. Golf jumpers. Oh, God. Golf jumpers. Oh, right. Okay. Yes. I need a picture. On the podcast. Can anyone hear? I'm not going to put my, I'm not going to redirect my microphone.
Speaker: Just like, what's that sound? Oh, it's Paul's buttocks are clenching. Yeah. Oh God, it's the photographs of me. Oh, please. But I don't think it's that unusual. I think most of us, well, I don't know. I was definitely like that until
Speaker: I would say, let me think about, I can remember like, my eldest would have just been born. So yeah, there was a point where I just, I just walk crazy stuff.
Speaker: had this huge multi -color coat, had these crazy hats and I was just like wear whatever I wanted just because I liked it. But we both went to the same art college together you know I had all the excuses in the world like you look around think okay I can just wear the hell I want to wear. You could have come out. You used to wear odd color socks you said oh I don't go by color I go by texture
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't think it's all texture. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, I had a, I bought a jumpsuit, a white jumpsuit that in, I did screen printing in fluorescent colors all over it.
Speaker: Yeah. And I got this like string, teabag, string vest thing that I just wear over that. I remember that now, yeah. Let's just walk around in that. So I mean, our college was a perfect place to kind of break out of those. I still didn't break out.
Speaker: Still didn't work out. My little cage. Obviously my little cage, doing my little things, doing little bits of art. Yeah. I know. You could have broken free. I could have done. I feel a soul coming on. I want to break free. And in the United States, did you know that video?
Speaker: when it came out. It was banned. Yeah, men in drag pushing a hoover around the house. Oh, was it? Yeah, it was banned in the States. I don't remember seeing it. Anyway, little fact about Freddie Mercury there. And Queen. Then I've got
Speaker: I've got deflecting attention. And basically, anyway, you could do that. It's a bit different, bit nuanced, if you like, bit different from people needing deflecting attention, pretending that you're okay, projecting, I don't need anyone's help. And I don't need anyone's help, or as if to say, nothing to see here move along.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I'm fine. Yeah. I'm good. I'm fine. I'm good. Are you all right? Yeah, no, no, no. Yep. Fine. I'm good. But what's the problem with that? As you get over the years past and you think, no one ever bloody asks me if I'm okay. Well, of course they don't.
Speaker: This is like every little tiny little piece of you is being concentrated throughout all your development into saying, I don't need any help, you know, long.
Speaker: So there you are. Oh God, no one cares about me. And then some girl comes along and goes, Oh, Paul, are you okay? You're like, no, no, thank God you've come. Yeah. Yeah. You're like the savior, the second coming. Oh my God. Yeah. Crap. Let's get out here. Yeah.
Speaker: I've also got avoiding fulfilling true potential. Well, I also have the opposite of that, which is both can be true. I'm just saying, neither am I right or wrong. It's just that they're two paths of the same thing. It's not one size fits all.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. As so often with like ADHD and stuff like that is that the complete opposite can also be equally and validly true. All right. So talk about your, um, your underachieving and I'll talk about overachieving. I was like, I was talked about this in another podcast. I was a runner.
Speaker: Um, I was a runner. I don't mean the sense of, you know, doing burglaries and doing a runner. I would say actually, you know, school activities, you know, sport, I ran a lot and, uh, but I always came second. I was scared of coming first.
Speaker: Yeah, I was scared of becoming, I never came first, I always came second. You know, like masking was essentially me saying, okay, okay, I know I'm good, but I don't want to get so good that like I put myself, you know, above the parapet.
Speaker: so you're running along and you're in the lead and you go crap let me just sabotage you sabotaging myself like kicking myself in the shin right so you just wane sabotage you're just running a little bit slower until someone passes you and then you're like oh let me just pick up the speed a bit yeah occasionally pick up a rock for you know just to slow me down pick it up pick it up ballast to load away
Speaker: Right. Yeah, of course. We do that by socks with ballast. Right. Yeah. And I think I can almost picture my, my teachers who would, they always give me like top, I always got top marks in physical education. They always used to look at me like, Oh, he came second again. Yeah. Like, yes, that's exactly what I wanted to do. That's right. For me.
Speaker: It's my first place, not your first place. My first place. Yeah. It's not like you get to decide who wins. You want to use this like old school way of like measuring success. Rules. You disgust me, teacher. Yeah. I came second, but look at my socks. They're full of ballast. Full of pebbles. Full of pebbles. And I'm not going to even talk about my pads.
Speaker: chunking up along with like, yeah, with pebbles flying everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So that's my list.
Speaker: Oh, sorry. Yes. Yes. I'm supposed to be doing that. I mean, as he says, I'm finished. You said you had liked a lot. Right. Right. So the opposite of that for masking is that you compensate through overachieving.
Speaker: and your relentless drive to excel. So that would be right. Here I am in this neurotypical world. They value success and achievement.
Speaker: So I can mask, you know, ADHD people tend to, you know, have a, you know, they might have a little special skill or they'd be kind of quite good in one area. Just use that to kind of, to, to kind of be an, you know, to, to achieve. And, and that way you, you are seen as a, as a successful person in the neurotypical world.
Speaker: So, you know, like, so you'll, so you'll drive for that. A bit like becoming famous as well. Famously, you know, it's quite common. People become famous and they completely lose a sense of who they are. Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole different job. Being famous is a different job to the, to the job that made you famous. Yeah.
Speaker: I watched an interview recently with the guy from Breaking Bad, what's his name? Mike from Breaking Bad, the fixer. Amazing at his interview with him. Have you not? Okay. People come up to him and in Breaking Bad, I think it's, they finished shooting Breaking Bad when, six, seven years ago now, people still go up to him and say, oh, Mike, how you doing? And he's just like, what?
Speaker: And just play along with it. But yeah, but you understand how people, especially if they're younger, you know, it's like, it's like, okay, you lose sense of who you are, but maybe that's what they, that's what they sought to do as you as you're saying, the same way sports might do it. Yeah, right. The interesting thing, right, is because we're both in the, in the creative industry is
Speaker: There are so many neurodiverse people in that industry. And the interesting thing is the trope of the more successful you are, the more weird you are.
Speaker: So if you can imagine going into an ad agency and you see their top creative director and he's just like, his hair is all over the place. He's like, he's this mad scientist kind of guy with, you know, running around with all this nervous energy and stimming left, right and center. And you go, well, he must be good. He must be good because he's just this kind of weird guy.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the back to the future sock. He's so good he doesn't care anymore. Well, yeah, well... He says he doesn't care what people think of him anymore.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I think more importantly that that is so good that society doesn't care anymore, that neurotypical people will allow, will make space for
Speaker: someone who's really unmasked and weird because they are so good and in fact you almost expect it right so if you're a famous film director or an artist
Speaker: or a creative or a variety. It's almost like the more famous you are, society expects you to be weird. You know, the better you are, the weirder they expect you to be. Yeah, because you're in a safe zone, aren't you? You're in a safe zone and you can do that. Right. Yeah, because yes. And you can argue whether
Speaker: If you never masked in the first place and you just let your freak flag fly and you just did your thing and that made you famous and everyone just accepted you as it, as you are, or, or you masked and you were good. And then you, as to your point, like you, you, that allowed you to kind of gradually come out of your little shell. Yeah. Okay.
Speaker: But yeah, I must think that in the creative field, like that almost becomes like a little beacon of hope or something is that the normal world will accept you if you're really good at something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But even I personally even steal.
Speaker: Despite going to art college, being in the environment where you could, you had all the invites you could possibly have, like, come on, Paul, you know, come and join. The water's really nice and warm, come in, you know, stop dipping your toes, jump in with us, you know, still. And then being in the creative industry still didn't do it.
Speaker: Still masking a lot. I mean, a lot, really a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, at the workplace for sure. Like that's where you mask the most, right? Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. If you've got anything else on your, on your list,
Speaker: Uh, oh my, Chris, I think we've kind of covered off some of these, like, uh, like, um, uh, so one would be struggling to share opinions. So if someone says, so what do you think, Paul? And then you're almost like taking stock of the room and who you're speaking to and who your audience is. And then you kind of like, you just, uh, make your answer fit for that.
Speaker: audience. I've also got perfectionism, kind of comes out of, is a masking thing because, you know, if the typical world sees that you're
Speaker: everything's great and put together you're put together the house is put together like a house yeah your home is perfect it's spotlessly clean right yeah so you're um one um a rehearsing conversations so okay before you kind of go into uh
Speaker: into a meeting or you're going to talk to someone about something, you're almost just kind of running that conversation through. Yeah, in your head so that you so that oh yeah, I do it all the time so I can so that you can control that conversation. Have you heard of the Gregorian technique?
Speaker: uh monks so yeah well calendar i i heard about this i once heard of this technique i think it was i heard from steven fry he suggested it for public speaking or meetings whatever so um anyway i was i was um i was actually did something really bizarre i was working at an agency i'd been there for four or five years and i started um rattling the cage a bit
Speaker: Well, no more than that. I started burning bridges. I started to self -destruct and self -sabotage, self -sabotage, blah, blah, blah. And in the end, I had a meeting. I got down to the last two to become a creative director at a major agency. I got down to the last two and I did the damn interview in my lunch hour.
Speaker: I jumped in a taxi. Oh, I've done that. On the way there. You've done that. You've done that. Yeah. Yeah. I've jumped in lunch. Yeah. Right. Mental. This is the other side of, I was in Old Street. Well, if you know London, Old Street is in a financial district.
Speaker: Pretty much and the interviews in Covent Garden, which is at least a 20 -minute cab ride in the meantime Practicing this thing that Stephen Fry suggested you do to stop avoid I mean going home Avoid avoid going um He said practice your
Speaker: practice what you want to say in Gregorian chant in chant so you go this is all in the back of the taxi as he was driving me along i was going
Speaker: Thank you for inviting me to this meeting. I'm going to present some interesting projects, one of which is this one by et cetera, et cetera, all the time getting these weird looks from the taxi driver.
Speaker: Oh wow. But it works. I was going to say because you have to stick to a cadence, right? You can't add, it's hard, it's harder to add ums in there because you've got a very strict, um, yeah, uh, sequence of notes. So that's, so that's masking. Yeah. I guess it is because the way I talk is pretty, well, you probably get the idea. If you listen to any of our podcasts, I'm pretty,
Speaker: I'm not very good at structuring what I say. Often when I talk it comes out of a bit of a pick and mix. It's all over the place. So when I talk like this, it keeps me from
Speaker: I get less, less likely to get distracted in my mind, I suppose as well. Right. Okay. So that's rehearsing conversations. Another one is mirroring the personality of those that you're with. So when you're with someone, you kind of adopt their, their, my favorite ones.
Speaker: Right. You know, if they're animated, you're animated. If they're quiet and chill, you're quiet and chill. You know, um, uh, well, I can actually develop quite scary. I can develop how someone laughs and other matters. I've been, I've had several girlfriends who I over time I've picked up some of their mannerisms that the way, even the way they laugh.
Speaker: man. Oh, no. Has he gone? Oh, shit. Has he gone? Oh, he's gone, isn't he? He had a technical hitch. Oops. He had a technical hitch. Okay. All right. So yeah, we were talking about mirror rig.
Speaker: Yeah, all right. Yeah, I used to take on I used to take on girlfriends mannerisms and the way they laughed and stuff like that. Yeah, that's right. And then I was just gonna say that we were talking about
Speaker: uh, a good few episodes back was, um, you know, like when someone has a Scottish accent and then you start doing a Scottish accent, yeah. Yeah. Whether that was a masking thing or not. It was so, so copying people's accents.
Speaker: oh right okay yeah yeah yeah it's the same here my son tom he said he said dad you've already you've already developed a um an accent from uh from the breccia region i said no really said yeah yeah yeah but i do i pick up accents quite quite easily cadence especially
Speaker: Okay. All right. All right. All right. So I think that's, that's all I had also. I had like, you know, a pretending to be calm. So you've got like this kind of calm exterior, whereas inside it's all like a fucking mess. Like you, you know, and we've said that before it's, it's, it's that, it's that swan thing, right? On the outside, you look like you're just gliding along, but underneath the surface, you're paddling like a nutter. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, how many people I've known, even really good friends have just assumed that I'm a really, really calm person.
Speaker: What? I mean, people that I've known for a lot, a lot of years, oh, you're so calm. What? Yeah. What? No, this is Paul. This is Paul. He mistaking me for someone, some other guy. Right. I might look calm and collected and so for sure. But underneath all that is like,
Speaker: all right so let's go on to that so so we've kind of covered off what masking is and we've kind of got a whole bunch of examples about what
Speaker: mask you know what examples of masking are and then now we're going to lead on to what other what's the cost i guess yeah i've got outcomes all right how it can show show up you know what can happen as a consequence of masking yeah issues problems issues all right do you want to start
Speaker: Right. Well, as we've said before, because you're neurodivergent in a neurotypical world, it takes you a lot more mental and physical energy to work in a system that doesn't really work for you. So you expend a lot of energy doing that. And that just leads to burnout, exhaustion,
Speaker: Yeah. Um, but then shame from like, feel like, Oh God, I'm lazy. So no, you're not mate. No, you're not made. You've, you're, you're exhausted. Give yourself a break. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, and I think we talked about before, there's a feeling of you can get an isolation because, you know, as you said, a while back, you know, you, you, you can feel like an, an alien that you're not, that you're not really in this world, right? It doesn't seem to be something that you're really a part of. So you have to kind of try and fit in. So you have that, you know, you can get a sense of isolation.
Speaker: And that can lead to, the more you mask, you have more trouble finding support because you don't even necessarily even know that you are.
Speaker: masking. So we're talking about asking for support or help. You know, because that's a weakness, right? Because you're letting your guard down if you're going to go, I need help. Yeah. But also, it's like you don't know what, sometimes you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. No. How can you help yourself if you don't know what it is? Or how can you help someone else help you if you don't know what it is?
Speaker: masking leads to a delayed diagnosis, right? So the more you mask, the harder it is for someone else, you know, even a professional to kind of work out what is going on. And that's especially true of females. It brings up an interesting subject, because, you know, we, we often talk about, you know, the fact that we're diagnosed later in life.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure. And also,
Speaker: This might be a twofold thing here is that, you know, in theory, if you're like me, you're diagnosed when you are 56. And you've got loads of old habits, you know, that you've been, you know, picked up over the past, you know, your masking skills, you know, off the scale, whether it becomes more difficult, or
Speaker: when you get to a certain age, you also realise that actually a lot of it is just based on absolute bullshit, you know, which can also lead you to a crisis as well. It's like, oh my God, where are your foundations?
Speaker: But in reality, it's like actually you can lose those habits because actually they were completely unfounded. They weren't based on anything except a lie that you've been telling yourself and other people. Well, I would say that that wasn't necessarily a lie. It's just a coping survival strategy.
Speaker: that you need, that you needed to do in order to, you know, not get picked on or, you know, so it wasn't. Well, so I'll say a contract that you wrote to yourself that just wasn't real. Right. You know, right. It's just, you know, to your point, you can, if your late day knows you've spent so long honing those masking skills, right? That you've, that you actually,
Speaker: If someone said, well, Paul, who are you? You would struggle to answer that question. There's a whole identity thing that suddenly starts to pop up.
Speaker: when you start asking those questions. That's at the top of my list in terms of potential outcome from masking is identity. I've put here really big capital letters. Paul aged 46 years old. I had a breakdown like 10, 11 years ago.
Speaker: And as most basically now looking back, it's like I was bursting at the seams just like I was freaking out and and and it started and then it started to really big simple question and most challenges like Paul, who the fuck are you? Right. The most challenging, the most scary, but the most beautiful question as well. It's it's hard.
Speaker: It is a hard -ass journey. Blimey. Because if you've spent decades masking and becoming, honing this kind of person, right, it means
Speaker: You know, your entire world has, you've built your entire world around that. And if you dismantle yourself, everything else in your world is up for question. Like, should these people, are they my friends? Should they be my friends? Is this the right job? Is this the right, you have to renegotiate everything in your life. The more you uncover.
Speaker: That was, I remember I was, I was in a really scary space when I did that. And I felt like I was set the read, I'd like, press the reset button. You know, that I didn't even know was there. Apparently it's there. I reset the button. And so, oh, yeah, no, I've been there. Tumbleweed going through your brain. Right.
Speaker: Right, I believe a wise man looks forward to those moments, which is
Speaker: Yeah. It's a weird thing to think about. Oh my God. I think I've mentioned it in the past but during that period I walked into a pharmacy to buy something and there was this big four -length mirror and it was to one side and I glanced to my left.
Speaker: And I caught my reflection. And I did not know who the hell that was that I was looking at in a mirror. And it was that was scary. I was like I was like an amoeba empty vessel completely. Right. But it was necessary. It's where I had to get to it turns out. Unfortunately,
Speaker: Yeah. Um, uh, yep. And then I had, um, okay. So other things that, uh, uh, masking leads to is anxiety, depression, low self -esteem we've, and we've talked about all of these things. So, um, it's, um, it's okay. So I w I would say that it's, it's a good thing to, to look for.
Speaker: I think this kind of comes on to kind of what some of the stuff that you can do, right? So identifying
Speaker: what your masking is and is it a cost? Yeah, I think of it as a cost, the benefit thing. Like, so for example, unmasking yourself is generally a good thing, but in the professional work in environment, it may not necessarily be something that you should really attempt to do, right? There is some, you know,
Speaker: there are some masking things which will work for you. So if you have to stim a lot and you're out in certain places, out in society, that can actually cause you more problems than it's worth.
Speaker: It's an element of embracing some of these things. It is part of you, and sometimes not always, sometimes it just depends how you look at it. If you reflect on yourself, think about yourself from a caring and loving point of view.
Speaker: You can start really changing stuff like that. It's like you, if you, maybe if you looked at yourself stimming in the past and then you got diagnosed later in life, and then you, if you, you choose to, you could choose to look at that and think, actually, I kind of like that about me, you know?
Speaker: Right. You know, no, no one dies. It's okay. I used to get accused. It's like people say, cause I stim sometimes in an unusual way. So people would say, Paula, you autistic. It's going back years. Right. And it's like, Oh, you could be offended by it. I was, I think at the time. Now I think, yeah, you know, what of it, you know? Right. So what? Yeah. That's okay. Your point is.
Speaker: Right. Yeah. So I think, you know, one is, you know, as I was saying, I, I identify what your masks are when, and when they are, and just, and just try and keep a tally of them. Because as this is, this is, this is a, this will take, it isn't something that you can do in five minutes or, you know, months, years, right? Of, of those 10 years ago, I've been unmasking
Speaker: Well, I've been unmasking a bit since I've had a breakdown 10 years ago, 11 years ago, but breaking, but also I've got a name for it now, you know, since three months ago, but you've had this, you've been, you've had, you've given a name for 10 years. So yeah, it takes time. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Also be around people.
Speaker: who are like you. So if you are ADHD or autistic ADHD, chances are you have a bunch of friends who are also the same and to actually be with them helps you feel more comfortable. Yeah. Have you ever been in a position where it's been the opposite? You've been amongst people. You could tell that you were scaring them.
Speaker: uh yeah well yeah because there'd be various places right where i'd be in a room full of people i'm not sure what this isn't masking so much it's like as as just saying something really weird or inappropriate if you stop masking you might be unmasked for a nanosecond
Speaker: well yeah people go whoa what the hell is that weirdo saying right yeah right so again it's like pick yeah you have to pick your battles your battles yeah for sure but you know but but but when you are around your friends who are you know it means that you can
Speaker: feel more comfortable with who you are and start to let go a little bit more with people who are much more accepting of you. And you can kind of explore who the real you is more. And if you're poor, you can have a shot or two and that'll help you along by the sounds of things.
Speaker: A shot or two, a what? A shot. Alcohol. Oh, okay. Yeah. But you've got a slight advantage. Where I live in Italy, ADHD, people have virtually no knowledge of it at the moment. So I feel a bit like, a little bit like, ooh, guys, I don't have a tribe here. I don't have an ADHD tribe here at all. Not in the slightest. It's not on their radars where I, it's not on their radar at all here.
Speaker: Hence why we have a podcast. It's really important for me, this podcast. And why we're on TikTok. Talking about what you can do, if you're not on TikTok, there is a large
Speaker: community of ADHD people, autistic people, I mean all kinds of mental issue groups on TikTok and communities that you can just watch them listen to their stories and that's inspiring as well.
Speaker: Yeah, I do really have come to what you're talking earlier, just before Martin about, you know, being amongst ADHD is, you know, there's that tribal element of it. And I've never in my whole life never felt part of any tribe. However much I've tried, I've never really felt part of a tribe.
Speaker: Until now, I really, really generally take a lot of joy and pleasure from the TikTok ADHD community. Just fascinating people out there with like -minded approaches to life, which I find a real joy to read and listen to. It's really cool, really cool.
Speaker: So finding your tribe, as it were, can help you find yourself, right? Yeah, exactly. And then the last two, I know that people who do journal, I struggle with journaling personally, but one technique I come across time and time again is to
Speaker: It's like pick one if there's a pick one or two masks and just and just try and work on them and then journal down every day how you're doing with with that with them.
Speaker: so that you're actually just focusing on one or two at a time and just kind of push at that. And that helps. Yeah, but on that, I think you're absolutely right, Martin. I think also a gentleman of, give yourself a break though.
Speaker: No one's saying, oh, do this or do that and do it within the next four months or make it a goddamn New Year's resolution or anything like that. Do it in your own time. It'll come along when it comes along or when it comes along, give yourself a break. Personally, I've just chosen to just improve my inner dialogue on it.
Speaker: you know, recognize it. Now that I've given it a name, okay, it's got its name, it's improved my inner dialogue about it. It's like, okay, like you were saying, Martin, oh, that's masking. Is it a toxic kind of masking? Is it kind of okay -ish masking? Is it even a cool masking? I'm totally down with it. I'm fine with it. Just having to start in that, improving that inner dialogue about what's good and what's not.
Speaker: Yeah. But without stressing about it, you know. Right. Well, I mean, I come from it from a point of view of like, if you're worried about something about masking and that's why you're listening to this, there is something, there is something that you feel like you should like, you know, because you're getting burnt out a lot or you're, you know, you can see where it's causing you a lot of harm.
Speaker: then sure, you know, like jump in and you can and you can you can start to tackle it. I think one place where it's helpful and this is probably the biggest place that I work at it from. It's. If you know that the masking times are going to are going to drain you,
Speaker: then that means that, say, I've just come back from the UK, there's been a lot of like talking, you know, lots, lots of meeting people chatting, it's been, you know, quite physically and emotionally draining. And therefore,
Speaker: I know that I will need time on the back end of something like that to recover. So if you're aware of masking, you go, right, well, I'm going to go into a heavy masking situation. I'm going to need self -care on the back of it. What I'm not going to do is book another mask, heavy masking thing straight off the back of it.
Speaker: I'm not gonna kind of, you know, do anything else that is gonna further drain me. I recognize that I'm gonna need some self -care time after it. So you can balance it out better, right? So that you're not heading down to that burnout place. I would add to this though, that if you like, what's really nice
Speaker: about unmasking is actually what you discover or uncover when you do unmask. I think it's almost always true that as you stop unmasking, you will uncover stuff that you could really surprise yourself about, you know, hidden talents or talents you think you always had, but suppressed many, many things.
Speaker: there's actually a lot of joy could come out of the you know the the the what can i say it's it's it's a really positive thing to unmask it's hard for me to think of it being anything other than positive oh yeah no yeah i mean i yeah as i was saying earlier it's mostly positive i would there are places and times when masking is not
Speaker: recommended. So I think it's what you're trying to do is like there's some masking stuff that will work for you and you just have to be aware of the toll that it takes, right? And then what we're saying I think is your entire life can't be
Speaker: just masking everything all the time because you would, you would just mentally collapse. Think of all that wasted energy that you could use in other things.
Speaker: Right. So if you can uncover and carve out more of yourself in those other times, you know, with your partner, in your relationship, with your friends, in your free time, whatever it is, when you're out in the normal world, it's just so much more freeing. There's a lot less energy and
Speaker: And then what you can do with that energy is actually look after yourself a bit better. You can do some of the things that you really like to do. Um, you've got more healing time or yeah, no, it's um, get the monkey off your back, you know, or in my case, you know, maybe start running without the ballast in your socks. Absolutely.
Speaker: run without the ballast in your socks. There you go. That's a great takeaway. All right. I've got another last thing based on that, a thing that I've been carrying around me for years. It's a quote by a lady called Mariana Williamson, American lady. She was actually, this was actually when Nelson Mandela came out of prison after 26 years, he quoted Mariana Williamson. It's an amazing thing.
Speaker: She said, and just put it in the context of this podcast, obviously, things about masking, she said, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, or fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?
Speaker: You playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feeling secure around you. We are all meant to shine as children do. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others. Nice.
Speaker: nice warm to cockles of your heart good point is that an expression i've always enjoyed that quote and it's like i don't know yeah yeah absolutely all right okay i've got down Paul's summary oh that's it that was it perfect that was perfect that was my summary
Speaker: What a perfect end to that little segment. All right. Well, that was a deep dive. That was the deepest I think we've done. The deepest of the dives.
Speaker: We've got a little bit of posts. We've got a little post. We've got a quick trip to the post room. Luckily, it's just around the corner. And we've got a little post from, it was actually on the YouTubers. We've got Andy, the ghost hunter, that said, oh, you two could so be brothers, it says here, Martin. Lucky you, lucky, lucky you.
Speaker: Right. I was, Carly Renauk would say, I should be so lucky. Lucky, lucky, lucky. Do you, do you know who Andy the ghost hunter is? No. It's your brother. It's my brother. No. Oh God. Of course it is. Oh, nice. Oh, hello Andy. My younger brother. Hello. Nice. Hello Andy. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well. Yeah.
Speaker: He's an expert then. He is a good man and a true friend. Good man. And a good brother. Okay. Excellent. All right. Well, let's just just remind everyone that
Speaker: that the ADHD bill is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all purveyors of your fine podcasts. Please subscribe to the pod and rate us most way too long.
Speaker: And feel free to correspond at will. You don't have to be related to us to make comments. No, otherwise we'll soon be allowed to run out of post. Send a pigeon if you have to. Send a pigeon. Happily receive your pigeons with little notes. Yeah, they roast at 350 degrees for an hour and a half.
Speaker: Right, based with some real butter probably. Absolutely. But wait, there's more. If you want to see how beautiful, beautiful first is then Sally forth to the to the huge tubes. And if you feel so inspired, pick up a quill and email us at ADHDville at gmail .com.
Speaker: yes so yes that just remains for me to say that uh we're also on tiktok youtube couple of friends facebook instagram but in the meantime just be fucking kind to yourself yeah and know thyself son of the hounds come hither and get flesh there says the mayor that's that
