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X-Men: The Dark Phoenix Saga
163 Plays3 years ago
In another double-feature, X-fan Greg Dunn makes his debut appearance on the show to talk about the best adaptation of the classic X-Men story, The Dark Phoenix Saga. It wasn't one of the movies, but the four-part story that appeared in season three of the 1992 animated series! Perry and Greg reminisce over their memories of the show, how it got them into superheroes, how it holds up today, and what they believe is truly the greatest X-Men story ever.
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Introduction to Audible and Superhero Audiobooks
00:00:00
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Hey, fellow superhero cenophiles. Did you know that almost 30% of adults say they haven't read a book in the past year? Primary reason why is a lack of time. Well, Audible's here to help with the gift of found time. Thanks to Audible, you can listen to audiobooks like Marvel Comics, The Untold Story, or Slugfest inside the epic 50-year battle between Marvel and DC.
00:00:19
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00:00:35
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Meet the Hosts: Perry Constantine and Greg Dunn
00:01:11
Speaker
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00:01:36
Speaker
Do not do it! Oh dear. You wish me to return to the cold nothingness of space? You wish me to give up the body? Never! There is a power beyond good and evil. The power to create.
00:02:02
Speaker
and the power to destroy. Gene, can you hear me? Gene Gray can hear nothing. Speak only to the Phoenix. Gene, fight it. Use the powers of your mind. Remember what we mean to each other.
Origins of Greg Dunn's X-Men Fandom
00:02:20
Speaker
Gene, please don't leave me. Scott, Scott, help me. Enough. You have no use to me.
00:02:34
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine, and I'm here with a new guest host, and that is a guy I met through the House of X Facebook group, and that is Greg Dunn. Greg, how you doing today? Oh, not bad, Perry. I appreciate you inviting me on the podcast.
00:02:51
Speaker
Well, I'm glad to have you on. We had talked about, when I was looking for someone to come on and host the Grant Morrison podcast I'm doing, you were one of the people who was interested, but by the time we had gotten in touch, I'd already gotten the teams assembled, but I thought this would be a little consolation prize or so. Well, I appreciate it. You just seem like such a busy guy and like really popular apparently.
00:03:17
Speaker
I don't know about popular, but busy is definitely an understatement. So anyway, how about tell people a little bit about yourself? Well, I spent maybe 12 or so years in broadcast journalism and just recently stepped into public relations and that kind of thing.
00:03:41
Speaker
I have loved the X-Men since I was in like first grade and absolutely think they're like the coolest thing ever. So I learned to read I feel like or at least expand my reading when I was a kid growing up in South Korea because there wasn't a whole lot of YA stuff at the base bookstore. I'm an army brat and did some growing up in Seoul, Korea
00:04:12
Speaker
And there wasn't any YA stuff. The closest thing to YA stuff was X-Men comics
Focus on the Dark Phoenix Saga
00:04:17
Speaker
on the comics rack. So I just gravitated towards it and the show was coming out, the animated series was coming out about that time. And I'm just like, just zoned in on it. So, well, that's a good way to talk about it because today where you and me are doing a two-part episode, we're talking about the Dark Phoenix saga.
00:04:37
Speaker
First the adaptation they did in the animated series and then the most recent movie. So let's go ahead and start with, start with there with with your background and
00:04:49
Speaker
So was it, so the animated series that was available on the base? I got a friend who's in the military and they have like the, I know they got like a military TV channel or something like that. The, if I remember right, that there's like a service in like the commissary or like they had a catalog back in their early nineties where, you know, people on, my parents could like look through the catalog and it was like a Sears catalog, but it was run by,
00:05:19
Speaker
by the DOD and they found the video cassettes like the single episode cassettes and then by like 1994 we moved back to the States and then I'm able to actually see it like new episodes every week on Fox Kids or whatever it was.
00:05:39
Speaker
Obviously the animation wasn't the greatest thing in the world, but you know, at least quality wise, but it was, it was, I don't know, just mesmerizing seeing like, you know, the, the team and, and having various people and the fact that, you know, diving into the comics, I find out that.
00:05:58
Speaker
Jubilee is Asian and ethnically I'm half Korean. So my mother was Korean and my father is Tennessee Redneck. So it just really appealed to me.
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting that you mentioned that about Jubilee because now the series is on Disney+, so I've been rewatching episodes here and there just kind of like in the background. And they didn't really draw her as looking very Asian in that series. So much so that when they first portrayed her in live action in the Generation X movie, it was a white actress playing her.
00:06:41
Speaker
Yeah. And, and it really, and it goes back to, you know, me, um, you know, finally getting back to the States and like digging through back issues and finding out that kind of stuff and, and being, um, totally thrown off that Psylocke is actually British, you know, cause when I,
00:06:56
Speaker
when I meet her in the comics first, it's like, oh, this is clearly an Asian woman, and wait a minute, but no, if I go further back, and these old issues, wait, she's British, it was just very confusing. That was, yeah, I remember when I first started reading the comic books, I think that was one of the stories that I like dove right in the middle of when I first started picking up the comic books and just having no freaking idea what the hell was going on at all.
00:07:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's the fun of of x-men comics I think the danger of it if you if you just like Dive into it or if you if you came into it in the 90s and had the frame of reference from the TV show Because they were adapting a lot of older storylines but also, you know coming up with like the whole first season is is just kind of a hodgepodge of of a
00:07:53
Speaker
of different things, but, but going like, especially, you know, adapting the dark Phoenix saga and the Phoenix saga and the third season, just like the whole idea that, uh, that they, you know, adapt an old story. And you're like, wait, what's going on? Cause, uh, the main
00:08:11
Speaker
What really captured me later in the mid-90s were reprints and also there was a weird series that I'll consider like, how do I put this? It's like a shot for shot remake of the first 16 issues. They got another writer to update.
00:08:32
Speaker
the the original 16. Was that a Professor X and Xavier in the X-Men? Yeah, I remember that book. I remember that book. And it really and that's what really made me visually appreciate the original team more. But yeah, I remember that. Yeah, the 90 series was sounds like for you. It was also my gateway into into X-Men comic books as well. And
00:08:57
Speaker
And they had done something kind of smart with that because they had used the same, mostly the same cast that was in the comic books like it was it was obviously pared down right they didn't have Psylocke on the team or Archangel or Iceman or Colossus or any of those but like it was basically the blue team plus Gene and Jubilee more or less and Storm.
00:09:19
Speaker
And that made it really, and it was the same costume designs they were using in the early 90s. So it was very, I remember the first comic I bought was, I think it was X-Men 24, where it was Gambit and Rogue on the cover about to kiss. And I remember thinking from the animated series, like, oh, they can't kiss. Oh my God, they're going to kiss in this issue. I had to read it. I had to see what, and of course they didn't, but still.
00:09:42
Speaker
right that was my first uh that was my first glimpse of being um being teased by the cover and then not getting satisfied by the inside oh yeah no you have to get used to that with the x-men i mean uh or really any marvel comic but yeah pretty much any comic in general uh yeah i just it it just blew my mind and and i was um i was just so interested in in the whole idea that
00:10:12
Speaker
that nobody liked them. Like, you know, you had the Avengers of the Fantastic Four who were basically like public celebrities and nobody liked the X-Men, but they were constantly saving
Divergence from X-Men Themes
00:10:24
Speaker
the world. They're doing something better for everybody. And so I gravitated more towards the X-Men and Spider-Man and that kind of thing back then. Yeah, same here. And it certainly didn't hurt that they had, that both of those had really good cartoon series in the time. And then when they got to Avengers and Fantastic Four, not so much.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. But so Dark Phoenix Saga, like this is, you know, obviously considered by many to be the best X-Men story ever told. I personally quibble with that a little bit. I think I personally put it on God loves man kills as the best. But what are your thoughts on that? That's tricky. Honestly, if I don't know that I would pick God loves man kills, I would
00:11:14
Speaker
Honestly, I think I would pick the Days of Future Past, that two-parter. That's a good one, too. And I understand why people really love Dark Phoenix, and I love Dark Phoenix, like, you know, whether it's issue 129 to 137, but it's...
00:11:34
Speaker
It's tricky because, you know, not too long ago, uh, I went back and I started reading from when Chris Claremont, uh, you know, E writer for the X-Men takes over and it like from, from when he takes over right after giant size all the way to really one 37 it's one big arc. Yeah. And, and the dark Phoenix saga is so dependent on little hints and, and, you know, the first Phoenix saga, you know, the early, like,
00:12:04
Speaker
Gene becomes Phoenix way back in issue 101 or something like that. And because there's so much baggage already, it's like,
00:12:13
Speaker
It's like, you know, season three or four of like a four season TV show or something like that. And it's, I appreciate it. It's great. It's awesome. And I think personally 137 has, you know, gone to my head. That's probably my like favorite issue ever, but greatest X-Men story ever. I don't know. I think there's too much alien baggage, too much weird stuff with too much baggage really with the hellfire club and the fact that
00:12:43
Speaker
you know, they're, they're just trying to manipulate things. But honestly, I would say Days of Future Past is probably a better story because it's, it's the whole Holocaust subtext to it. Yeah, that's a really good point. And you touched on something that has always been kind of my, that's always kind of held me back with with Dark Phoenix Saga as well. And that's that it, it doesn't really have anything to do with
00:13:07
Speaker
the root of what the X-Men are all about, which is that civil rights metaphor, that discrimination metaphor. None of that is in Dark Phoenix Saga at all. And it's basically just the X-Men doing Star Wars, more or less. And it's fun. It's a great story. It's very emotional. But it gets away from what the core of the X-Men are to me.
00:13:32
Speaker
And that's why I gravitate more towards God loves man kills, but you make a good point with days of future past as well. Yeah. Um, and I do love, I do love God loves man kills. I just wonder, I wonder too, because of, if it doesn't age as well here in 2021, simply because Kitty, um, you know, um,
00:14:00
Speaker
throws around some some words that she probably shouldn't throw around, you know, but it was, you know, I know I realized she's trying to make a point with it, you know, back in the 80s. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point too. Well, some of Claremont's dialogue in general just doesn't really age very well. I found going back and rereading some of those books. But anyway,
00:14:23
Speaker
But still, you know, but anyway, the Dark Phoenix, it is considered like by many, if not us, by many to be like the seminal X-Men story. And I think it's been the most adapted when you think about it, because it's been adapted like four times. We have the animated series. We had X-Men The Last Stand. We had, you know, Dark Phoenix. And then also the Wolverine and the X-Men kind of adapted it as well in the,
00:14:50
Speaker
in the three-part foresight act episodes at the end of the first season. Oh, that's right, yeah. That was more toward, that was more based on the ultimate version of it, but it was still basically Dark Phoenix. Yeah, it's been a few years since I've seen the Wolverine the X-Men version. I do remember at the time thinking, this is what they, you know, the
00:15:15
Speaker
as far as like overall format with Wolverine the X-Men. I'm like, man, this is what they should have done with Last Stand instead of the mess that Last Stand kind of was.
00:15:27
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, same here. That was such an underrated show too. I've been rewatching it lately and like the 90s series will always hold a special place because that's what got me into the X-Men and then comics in general, but that show has not aged as well as Wolverine and the X-Men has, I think.
00:15:48
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree with you there. Uh, just, just from remembering a few years ago, watching Wolverine, the X-Men and, and I did a full rewatch of the series of the animated series. Oh, maybe like six to eight months ago and like the heart of the pandemic. Um, and it, you know, looking at it and seeing some of the jerky animation, I'm like, well,
00:16:15
Speaker
I guess I just totally missed it or overlooked it, you know, back in 1990, whatever. And that and gosh, there is a lot of gambit is just a hound dog.
00:16:31
Speaker
Well, I mean, when you're a kid, you don't really notice that stuff too as well. But also the animation was not really that sophisticated back in the 90s. I mean, that's one of the reasons why Batman was so groundbreaking was because it was this
00:16:47
Speaker
this very beautifully animated series. And that animation holds up even to this day. But X-Men was still back, still using the kind of like 80s style animation techniques where it was very much kind of, you know, shoestring budget and that kind of thing. So they weren't really putting a lot of time and effort into it. And some of the voice acting grates on me. Wolverine, I think is the guy who did Wolverine. I got the cast list here.
00:17:17
Speaker
So, yeah, Cal Dodd, who did the Voice of Wolverine, he was great. Chris Potter, his gambit was pretty good as well, and Cedric Smith as Professor X. Mostly okay, although it's tough for me now because after Patrick Stewart and
00:17:37
Speaker
Whoever did the voice in X-Men Evolution and then later in Wolverine and the X-Men, I felt they were better. And I'm more associate Professor X with that kind of voice now. So the Cedric Smith one doesn't quite hold up as well, but it's still decent. George Buza's Beast as well was really good.
00:17:56
Speaker
Storm, I hate Storm in this series and how she, and they go, they go full, yes, they go full Claremont with
Review of Animated Series Adaptation
00:18:05
Speaker
her and she announces every, for a while I thought she had to, that was how her powers work when I was a kid, that she has to verbally announce what she's doing. Right. Well, you know, somebody, I was, I was just talking about Storm in the animated series with
00:18:23
Speaker
someone else and then listening somebody makes it made a point that it's almost like poetry, like a spoken word, like, and especially they pointed out it's sort of like how Maya Angelou would like read her work. And she was out, you know, reading her work that with the
00:18:48
Speaker
Deep like wind and rain and feel the power of my lightning and. Well, it worked in 1993 or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And I also don't like for a while, I hated Cyclops just because of this show, because he's really annoying in this series. You know, I think honestly, I think I'm one of the people that that I
00:19:19
Speaker
I related to Cyclops the most because I was the kid who was like, guys, we got to follow the rules. Like everybody else loved Gambit and Wolverine because they were, you know, they were always, I don't know, they were the rebels. Yeah.
00:19:36
Speaker
Yeah, but but I was I was a kind of a cautious kid. And I think I'm still a little cautious now. And like, no, let's we have to follow the rules. And I love Cyclops, because here was this guy who who had to keep himself in check on the top all the time. And he followed the rules. So
00:19:59
Speaker
So, when it comes to Dark Phoenix, which was your first exposure to that story was it in the comics or was it in the animated series. I think it was, it was the comics actually by that time. I had found. Well, you know what.
00:20:17
Speaker
So there was this trade paperback, um, called the greatest battles of the X-Men. I had that one. Yeah. Yeah. So I read, uh, one 37 and the other issues in that book before, um, I read, I think any other X-Men comic and I just, I just latched onto it. And, and didn't, I didn't even know at the time, like the,
00:20:42
Speaker
that this stuff with the Hellfire Club, you know, you know, I just had the conclusion to the saga. It's like I watched Return of the Jedi without seeing Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back.
00:20:57
Speaker
That was my first exposure. And then, you know, by the time I got back to the States, I had access to what I called the Coloring Book editions of X-Men. They were the essential, like, news, the essential Marvel collections with, they were printed on, like, thin newspaper pulp. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember, yeah, I remember those.
00:21:20
Speaker
Yeah, there were black and white collections. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, you got like 16 issues for next to nothing like 20 bucks or something like that. So as a kid, I'm like, okay, I can save up my money and buy one of these and get like a whole bunch of story. And that that's really where yeah, that single issue from greatest battles, the X man, that was the first exposure I had to dark Phoenix.
00:21:46
Speaker
I was trying to remember last night as I was rewatching these episodes, if that was, because I do remember that trade paperback and that was, I'm pretty sure I watched the first season already because I knew, I was kind of surprised, because Days of Future Past was in that too. Yeah, it was right after. Yeah, and I was really surprised because I was really confused and I was reading Days of Future Past in the comic book. I'm like, wait a minute, where's Bishop? What's going on here? Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:22:14
Speaker
But I can't remember if I'd seen if we had gotten to the Dark Phoenix saga by the time I got that trade or not so. And so, or if I had read the Dark Phoenix saga, because I know there was a trade of Dark Phoenix saga that I had gotten from the library, but I can't remember which one came first, it's like a chicken or the egg situation for me.
00:22:34
Speaker
Well, I had, I had assumed that everything in the animated series was, you know, after seeing the first season was happening afterwards, just because, oh, they're adapting the show and this must be happening afterwards. And even Jean has like a throwaway line that somewhere in the first season, I think it's when they, um, it's when they, uh, when Sabretooth is at the mansion, it's like the third or fourth episode.
00:23:00
Speaker
But I swear she has a throwaway line about her darker past. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. She says she she does mention something. Yeah. She mentioned something about like, you know, we all have like a dark past or something. Yeah. So I just assume that, oh, well, maybe they won't adapt it. But, you know, here they go. Well, the continuity in that series was kind of wonky. And I think part of the reason is because they didn't have
00:23:25
Speaker
a dedicated writing staff, right? It was just all freelance basically. They had the two show runners were on, I was listening to the ex-wife podcast and the two show runners from that series were on there talking about it. And apparently like they didn't really have like a dedicated writing staff. So it was just kind of like each episode was written by like different people. And they didn't even know if they would go past the first season. And basically they were just given kind of the characters and
00:23:54
Speaker
They had Bob Harris as a story consultant over at Marvel's they were able to run things by by him, but, but they didn't have like necessarily like a series Bible or something where everything was laid out like you have with most TV shows nowadays it was very just kind of slapped together, and it shows because
00:24:13
Speaker
I remember in the, because you see Archangel appears in the first season, right? And he doesn't know any of the X-Men. Magneto appears in the first season and it seems like it's the first time he's meeting the X-Men. It's not quite clear. Even the episode with the Juggernaut, it kind of seems like he knows everybody, but at the same time they're talking, sometimes they're talking like they don't know him. And then
00:24:38
Speaker
But then you get to later on in the series when you have the Iceman episode, which was one of my favorites. And
Thematic Essence Across Adaptations
00:24:45
Speaker
you see the flashbacks and you see Angel in the flashbacks with the original X-Men fighting Magneto. So they didn't really do very, very good job with some of the continuity there. Well, you know, it's like a typical X-Men retcon, you know, you just throw in and and you
00:25:01
Speaker
You just duct tape it together, I guess, later on. You just do what you need to do for the episode and justify it later. So anyway, going to the talking about the adaptation, then what were your thoughts rewatching these episodes? Well, it wasn't bad. I didn't. I guess I. I.
00:25:31
Speaker
Let me think about this. I've forgotten the part where Dazzler was basically just kind of there to throw off Jean slash Phoenix. And then she was more of a... There wasn't a whole lot to her, but she only gets the one episode. As far as an adaptation, it does...
00:26:00
Speaker
I think it works for the most part. What does bug me, I guess, is the whole idea that because Jean doesn't kill the broccoli people in the cartoon, like she does in the comics, then it creates this whole situation of they're putting her on trial
00:26:20
Speaker
for property damage. Now, granted, it's like an entire star system, but she's being put on trial and potentially put to death for property damage. So I'm like realizing this, you know, just now, like, gosh, that's a harsh part. Death is a harsh punishment for just property damage, basically. Lander doesn't mess around, I guess. Yeah, no. Well, then she also damaged the ship, too. So I guess, you know, a little bit pissed that she's got to buy a new ship now.
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of rough. It really does change the whole dynamic. I feel like if you dive into it because, you know, the broccoli people who, you know, get used later on in the in the dark Phoenix. Yeah, we'll get to that. We'll definitely get to that. But yeah, the debari. Yeah, that was my biggest note. I do. Now I do remember I did see this
00:27:16
Speaker
before I read the story, because I remember reading the story. I'm like, oh, wait a minute. There are people on this planet that she's killing. And I'm like, that wasn't in the show. So that was a big shock for me. And it allows the, it's weird. You're right. It is kind of a weird way for it, because they're basically punishing her for something that she might possibly do in the future.
00:27:43
Speaker
Yeah. They're punishing her for her potential to be destructive. But the thing that stood out to me most was that it allows them to then use it. This way, they get permission to use Clarendon Byrne's original ending for the Dark Phoenix saga, which is Jean survives, but she gets well, they use a variation because she still has her powers at the end. But in the original ending, they had planned was that Jean would survive, but she would be stripped of her powers. And then her and Scott would have retired from the X-Men.
00:28:11
Speaker
kind of gone off into the sunset to start a family. That was the original plan to end and that was kind of something Claremont wanted to do was have these characters rotate in and out of the X-Men and eventually, you know, characters would come in, they'd age out or they'd retire and then they'd move on and they'd be replaced by new characters. And eventually he was going to have Xavier die completely and Magneto fully take over the school but
00:28:34
Speaker
Then, you know, Jim Lee wanted to go back to basics and all that so they had to get rid of all that stuff, which is not necessarily a bad decision I understand why. Because you got it, you want to keep that brand alive for and you want and you know people want to want to read their favorite characters anyway so well I wonder to thinking about that.
00:28:55
Speaker
You know, because it's really like in the mid 80s, I feel like where, where they introduced, whether they call it back then, like the seven year rule, that it would always be seven years since the Fantastic Four went into space. I think it was, I think it was Bern who did that. Yeah. And it was like five or seven year sliding timeline, you said.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah, so Because really before that there's like a Christmas issue every year right in Cyclops is dropping references to how many years ago the plane crash was when he was a kid and firmly Grounding them in the timeline and really it if it makes sense to rotate characters out if you're gonna establish that it is 1980 whatever when
00:29:41
Speaker
when those comics actually come out and then you're going to replace them, especially in a school setting with new characters, new generation and just adhere to it's about the current present and then and then the
00:29:58
Speaker
Uh, the sixties stuff really did happen in the sixties and that kind of stuff. And, and, and the second, uh, the deadly or not the deadly Genesis, the second Genesis, uh, actually is in the seventies and that sort of thing. So yeah, I can, I can kind of see where, where, you know, retiring people make sense. And like he, he didn't necessarily create any of those characters. Lean like you, that I feel like that was Len Wien and, and really like,
00:30:27
Speaker
Um, Marvel bullpen creation. So we, you know, time to rotate, rotate in some new blood. Right. Right. Um, you mentioned the Dazzler thing too. Uh, cause I remember she was part of the dark Phoenix saga as well. There was this, there was this whole thing with the hellfire club and the X-Men both trying to go after new mutants. And so they had one group that was going after Dazzler.
00:30:48
Speaker
And another group who's going after Kitty Pry, that was her introduction, which is interesting now I'm watching this because they really did not want to use Kitty Pry in this show at all. She's like the one character who never appears once in all the episodes.
00:31:03
Speaker
Yeah, I wonder why that is. Well, apparently it had a lot to do with Pride of the X-Men because they were worried when they when they were putting the show together, they thought about using Kitty Pryde. And you can see like Jubilee in this series is basically Kitty Pryde. Right. She's she's got none of the Jubilee personality from the comics, really.
00:31:25
Speaker
And they had wanted to use Kitty Pride in the beginning, but then they realized, oh, wait, we got this Pride of the X-Men pilot. And if we do the same thing, people are going to think we're just redoing the pilot again. So they wanted to avoid those kind of comparisons. And that kind of, so apparently they, and that seemed to have kind of created this situation where they never use Kitty at all. See, I mean, that is the one thing about the animated series adaptation I would,
00:31:53
Speaker
I would kind of harp on is because if you remove Kitty pride, you've also watered down, uh, Emma Frost's involvement is, uh, and, and, and it shows in, in the episodes, um, you know, because you're only getting basically half of the, some, some of the story from those original issues where, you know, it's just Dazzler. Cause yeah, in the comics they, they split up and, uh, was it, um, you know, half the team goes, uh,
00:32:23
Speaker
uh, to check out Dazzler and the other half go, you know, to meet Kitty pride. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It does. It totally waters down, uh, Emma's part in the story. And, which is why we, uh, and also in, um, and then in first class too, and you know, X-Men origins, we both get, we get watered down versions of Emma and both of those. And then, you know, mentioning Wolverine and the X-Men, that was the only time we got an Emma and other medium that was done some amount of justice.
00:32:50
Speaker
Yeah. In fact, in the comment, correct me if I'm wrong.
00:32:56
Speaker
Emma's not in the later Hellfire Club stuff, right? Because she just helps Mastermind establish the connection. No, no, she remains active with the Hellfire. I believe she's active with the Hellfire Club, but she becomes more active in the school side of it with the Hellions. And so she becomes more active in the new music. I just think the Dark Phoenix story itself. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she gets like,
00:33:24
Speaker
I don't know, brain burnt out or something like that. And she's out of commission through the rest of the Dark Phoenix saga. And you're right. You're right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you're right. You're right way after. I thought you were talking about Hellfire Club stuff in general, but you're right in that. Yeah. In that series, she basically comes in and and I believe it's Jean who basically like kind of like, you know, knocks her on her ass and then like takes her out of commission for the rest of that story. Yeah.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, you're right about that. And, and she doesn't really have much of a purpose in in this these episodes either, like she's basically just there to, to kind of help mastermind, you know, along basically. Yeah, and really visually, you, you need her there to kind of fill out the whole fire club. And, you know, you
00:34:14
Speaker
I guess with a kid's TV show, walk the line with using a comics accurate costume with her. Well, I thought that was funny because I noticed her costume is more or less comics accurate. But when it came to Jean's black queen costume, all of a sudden they gave her blue leggings. So apparently they couldn't go full bondage with Jean, but they could with Emma because Emma was a villain. So I guess that was it. Yeah, she's a bad guy. It's okay.
Jean Grey's Storyline Adaptation
00:34:40
Speaker
But also there, and you can see looking back on this show, the standards and practices influencing things like, you know, the fact that they're not allowed to be called the Hellfire Club and said they're just the inner circle and the circle club. Yeah, the sign says circle club. And I think Wolverine and the X-Men had the same problem too. They also didn't call them the Hellfire Club if I'm not mistaken. They were just called the inner circle as well. Yeah. And even, you know,
00:35:08
Speaker
years later, picking up on nobody says kill, you just say this. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that was one of the things like they they could not do certain things in those shows. And like even when they fired guns, like you notice all the guns in the in those episodes in that whole series, they're all energy blasters.
00:35:27
Speaker
None of them fire real bullets. And that was because that was a rule. You could not fire real bullets. In fact, Batman the Animated Series was groundbreaking in that way because the guns fired real bullets. And I remember, especially if you look at some of the behind the scenes stuff about the Spider-Man TV series, like they had some ridiculous rules. Like if Spider-Man lands on a roof,
00:35:53
Speaker
there can't be any pigeons on it or something like that because we can't make it show that he has heard of any pigeons or it was ridiculous. Yeah. Or like they couldn't show him like directly punching someone. It would have to be like, it'd have to be like, you know, reaction shots only or it was because it was because of the backlash over power Rangers, apparently. It was a lot of the stuff with Spider-Man. And so like they got Fox got terrified about offending parents because of that.
00:36:23
Speaker
Well, I know as a kid, I was offended by punches not connecting properly and people not flying backwards. I mean, I wanted big action.
00:36:42
Speaker
Yeah, and also, like you mentioned, the destroy thing instead of kill. And, you know, Jean doesn't kill anybody in this Dark Phoenix. She doesn't kill anyone. She just, you know, they make a point of saying that, you know, the captain's bitching about the fact that they're mapping this uninhabited star system because they can't have Jean killing anybody.
00:37:04
Speaker
So no broccoli people die here. And then, and even at the end, right, they don't, Jean doesn't die at the end. She's brought back to life. But even so, they never say that she is dead, right? They say her life force has been extinguished or something like that. Right. She hasn't been killed. Yeah. Her life. Yeah. You know, watered down language. Well, you know, I, I really, cause you can't, for a kid's TV show, you can't really stick with
00:37:29
Speaker
the original ending from the comics where she decides to commit suicide. So even though it's the most noble, she thinks she's saving the galaxy by killing herself. Yeah, I can totally see someone at standards and practices saying we can't condone any kind of suicide.
00:37:46
Speaker
Right. Well, that's a good point, too. I realize that as well, because it's in the comic book, she sets up this this gun to kill her at the end there. But in the in the show, it's a blast from the the Shi'ar gun from the ship. And they do make a point that I did catch on something on I think this is kind of a way they snuck it in, because they make a point of saying that the weapon they've lost control of the ship or something like that.
00:38:12
Speaker
Yeah. So I think they kind of hint that Jean had taken control of the ship and had tried to kill herself that way, but they couldn't come right out and say that. Well, you know, I remember that now. Yeah, the weapons get wonky and the professor says something about or
00:38:32
Speaker
or, or one of the technicians say, Oh, the weapons are back online. And the professor is convinced that it's gene, like fixing it. But then there's a really clear shot though, of LeLandra slamming on the control. So I'm led to believe it's like LeLandra, you know, make, you know, pulling the trigger. I think it's, I think it's done that way intentionally so that they can, they can, they were kind of giving themselves cover in case anybody picked up on what they were doing.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, but it doesn't it doesn't feel the same as as the original comic where you figure out that she's she set that whole thing up. Right. And, you know, she kills herself with the old alien gun and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. In general, though, I think they did a pretty good job of staying true to the comic book because they both they they they seem to mostly have the team like they've Wolverine storm cyclops. They were all part of the team in the original.
00:39:27
Speaker
beast as well. He came, he was part of the Avengers then, but he came in for, and Angel was there as well. And then who doesn't really have an analog in this version, but Colossus and Nightcrawler, Rogue and Gambit kind of served the Colossus and Nightcrawler roles in this one. And they, they did a pretty good job of working them in, like, especially during the, the Imperial Guard fight, right? You have
00:39:50
Speaker
a rogue standing in for Colossus in the fight with Gladiator. Well, you have both Gambit and Wolverine stand in for Nightcrawler at different points. When Wolverine's sneaking around, that was Nightcrawler in the comic books and when Manta nails him. Another one is during the battle with Earthquake and Hussar. You had Gambit in that one serving in for Nightcrawler. So they did a pretty good job of working them in there and then they
00:40:16
Speaker
they left out Jubilee doesn't appear at all in these ones, which makes sense because you could put her in the Kitty Pride role, but it doesn't really fit because she's already part of the team. No, yeah, you would. Yeah, she doesn't fit it all really. And yeah, I don't know where you would put her. I really just, and I also watched
00:40:43
Speaker
Uh, the original, the first five regular or not the dark part, but the regular Phoenix saga, um, and, and picked up on that too, where they do the same thing. They're just, they're taking the cast they have and just filling them in spots and moving people around. I mean, the, the only really iconic thing I remember from the, the comic that is not in.
00:41:08
Speaker
The the Imperial Guard fight is is a fastball special. That's the only yeah, that's right. Yeah, because you don't have colossus And one of the things I really like too was beast and storms discussion in this right about about you know about justice and all that I mean rewatching it last night. I'm like, this is pretty sophisticated stuff for your kids TV show It is
00:41:37
Speaker
And yeah, and I think that that that goes that goes back to the whole idea that she's on trial for something she might do. Right, exactly. And property damage. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because it
00:41:54
Speaker
it is a lot different when you when you dive into it and you consider the fact that she you know she committed genocide you know unintentionally maybe in the comics you know especially with the story are you familiar with it with like John Byrne like
00:42:14
Speaker
Um, just kind of filled in the bra, the debari, the broccoli people, so to speak at the last second. And that I didn't know that. Yeah. That I, I remember reading that somewhere that they were never supposed, like it was supposed to be to kind of fit with the original Claremont narrative. Um, but.
00:42:33
Speaker
at the last second for whatever creative reason he decides to there was like a miscommunication with what was going to go on those panels and decided to put aliens in them just to give it a little bit more weight but and then
00:42:46
Speaker
went to print I think without Claire Monson. I don't know, I might be misremembering the story, but I'm pretty sure that the Broccoli, the DiBari were a last second edition and they didn't realize the fact that they had turned Jean into a mass murderer. I do know that Jim Shooter wasn't aware of it. That's something I definitely remember. That Jim Shooter only found out about it after the book had already gone to print and
00:43:14
Speaker
And then when he was talking that he had confronted Claremont about this and he said, what's going to happen to her at the end? He's like, well, she's going to be, you know, she's going to be depowered. He's like, no, no, no, no, that's not good enough. Right. She, she committed genocide on a global, on a planetary scale. She can't just get off scott free. She's got to face some punishment for that. And that that was when they redid the ending. Yeah. I mean, how do you walk somebody back from that? Yeah. No. Uh,
00:43:44
Speaker
They're just aliens. But you have to give weight to it. And I'll make a, I guess, a teaser to when we talk about the Fox Dark Phoenix movie. There's a moment in there when I think the movie really,
00:44:06
Speaker
embraces the idea that it's the darkest timeline is, you know, like, how much weight do you give to the bad guys? If, if they're not human? I mean, they're still aliens, they're still living people. So how easily can you just throw life away? And that kind of thing? I think there's a deeper message to it that
00:44:31
Speaker
The all life, whether it's alien or mutant or human needs to have some kind of meeting and that if we take it away, you know, whether it's You know, somebody
00:44:43
Speaker
who's just like a throwaway pawn, their life, you know, like if you look at a movie from the point of view of, you know, even like the stormtroopers in Star Wars, their lives should still have meaning and that kind of thing. And even the foot soldiers to the bad guys, even their lives have meaning. Like with the animated series, one shot that I, you know, rewatching that I,
00:45:12
Speaker
I really love that they kind of stuck the landing with and adapted was when Harry Leland sends Wolverine into the sewer.
00:45:22
Speaker
And he splashes down the sewer. It looks like the same John Byrne panel when he rises up out of the water. But again, a big difference in the comic. He just slices and dices his way through those Hellfire Club guards.
Character Portrayals and Continuity
00:45:39
Speaker
But obviously in the comic, standards and practices walk them back where he doesn't
00:45:44
Speaker
It doesn't seem like he actually probably kills anybody. No, he, they actually make a point, like he retracts his claws and then, you know, punches them out. Um, so yeah, they, that was, um, it was always kind of one of the interesting things about the series. They've got Wolverine with his claws and he can't really use them. Yeah. Except when they're fighting sentinels. Yeah. You know, he can slice up a lock, but yeah, he's not drawing blood anywhere.
00:46:08
Speaker
It was the same thing with, uh, I was an Ninja Turtles fan back in the eighties as well. And like the same thing, right? Like Leo and Raph, they can't really use their weapons. Oh yeah. And, and you know, uh, those original comics with, uh, who, who was that like Eastman and Eastman and Laird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they were, they did not hope, no, they didn't help back in those at all. No.
00:46:33
Speaker
But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the Wolverine thing. I wanted to mention that too. I thought they did a really good job of that. And just these little bits of Wolverine when he's coming up through the Hellfire Club, like when the guy's asking for the bottle of wine, then Wolverine knocks him out and then he looks at the bottle and he's like, oh, that was a lousy year. And he takes the turkey leg. But yeah, just those little moments like that, those are really well done.
00:47:00
Speaker
Overall, I mean, I also like that they found a way to use Jean's original costume in a way that made sense. They don't say that she was, I'd noticed that he didn't say, because in the comic book, he says, you're dressed as Marvel girl. And he doesn't say that at this time, he just says you're wearing your original X-Men uniform. Yeah.
00:47:23
Speaker
another little slip that would, you know, if you're paying attention in the Iceman episode, then no, it's not really her. Yeah, because she's wearing the yellow and blues in that one. And, you know, just as a side note, I hate that they brought back the green dress costume in the House of X stuff. Me too.
00:47:50
Speaker
I don't, especially after X-Men read, you know, I feel like, um, there. I don't know it. I think there's something that bothers me about, uh, a grown woman regressing back to a code name like Marvel girl. Um, and, and they seem adamant about not wanting to call her Phoenix with all the stuff that's going on in, uh, in Jason Aaron's Avengers.
00:48:17
Speaker
So, you know. I mean, I understand because I understand not wanting to use the Phoenix stuff because after resurrection, you know, the whole idea is like she's put all that behind her. And I thought X-Men Red did a really good, even though I wasn't really so sold on the X-Men Red costume. I don't like the like bulky shoulder pad thing, but still like I prefer that to the going back to the green mini dress.
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, I, you know, Russell Dauterman did a version of the 90s costume. I like the color scheme. I think it was in, it was in the silent issue that he did, you know, midway through the Dawn of X. It was like a callback to the Grant Morrison issue where, where. Oh, then I've said issue. Yeah.
00:49:16
Speaker
He updated the costume, you know, it was like a marriage of the 90s costume with with the green dress color scheme. Okay, I also looked that up. And if so, if you read that issue, that's the costume I would prefer her to be in nowadays, but I think
00:49:41
Speaker
Hopefully we'll get there. I don't know. I feel like there's something else going on in the comics right now with her and Beast and all the resurrection stuff and they might come back around to finally revealing what's going on. And I think there's another potential connection
00:50:01
Speaker
especially with the whole family dynamic that's been in there with Scott and both of the kids, Cable and Rachel and everybody living in the same house. I think it's almost like, this is what we always really wanted and that kind of thing. So she's trying to be, you know, nice mom Jean rather than grown up.
00:50:30
Speaker
you know, all grown up in that kind of thing and leader gene and that kind of thing. I think it's more of a maternal thing. That's a good point. Okay. Well, I'm still kind of behind on this. I'm getting these stuff through trades when they, when they come on sale on Comixology. So like I'm only up to, I haven't even gotten to excess kind of swords or excess swords or whatever it's called. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, I don't want to spoil anything for you, but there's, there's a Russell Dauterman does,
00:51:01
Speaker
does a, you know, a callback. It's a whole issue where she and Emma, Gene and Emma basically have to do another psychic rescue.
00:51:12
Speaker
It's absolutely beautiful. And I think you'll appreciate it if you like the enough said issue from Grant Morrison. Yeah, that was one of the best issues of that run. So I'm looking forward to when we get to cover that on the podcast. Anyway, one of the things too I thought was interesting about this is when they have Dazzler in here and
00:51:35
Speaker
It was, they used her 90s look, I noticed, which seems very odd because that's like when she was, you know, this rebellion leader in the Mojo verse and she's doing it and instead she's using it as a lounge singer. So she's got like the pouch belts and all that. And it just seems really out of place.
00:51:56
Speaker
It does. And is, is it the same voice actress is rogue. So I feel like she has a like a slight twang. I'm not sure that's a good question or voice.
00:52:10
Speaker
and her hair was a little more red. Yeah, yeah. I thought that was weird too. It's like they were trying to make her look like Jean. So Jean would seem more jealous when she like walks into the club and she plants one on Cyclops and Phoenix like loses her mind. Yeah, I think that was the intent.
Cameos and Crossovers
00:52:31
Speaker
Because I noticed that too, that she was like more of a redhead as opposed to blonde like she is in the comic books.
00:52:40
Speaker
It is funny seeing her in the 90s look. I mean, I guess the disco look would have looked kind of dated, but the that 90s look doesn't really work either. No. Yeah, I'm.
00:52:52
Speaker
I don't know. Maybe there was something coming out in the comics where they're like, eh, what the heck. We'll just use, we'll just use her current comics look. Cause that seems to be like the default thing that they do with, with some of the characters guest spotting is like, put them in like Colossus, you know, when he guest spots on that show, he's never.
00:53:12
Speaker
He's always in like a tank top. Yeah, Colossus is like the only one who for some reason doesn't wear a costume. Whereas every other mutant who has some cameo always shows up in a costume. Yeah. I remember thinking that was, I remember rewatching the Colossus episode a few weeks ago and thinking like, wait a minute, how come Colossus is the only one who gets to wear street clothes? Nobody else does.
00:53:35
Speaker
Well, it makes even less sense when they give him a second episode where they go back to Russia and it's cold, it's snowing, and he's still, if I remember right, and he's still, he's just in that, you know, white tank top. Right. And then meanwhile, you get the Nightcrawler episode where he's, you know, in full costume later on, or the Archangel episode where when Cable attacks, right, he's wearing his costume underneath his clothes, which
00:54:01
Speaker
I don't even know why he's wearing a costume if he hates the fact that he's trying to hide the fact that he's a mutant. Oh, man. Yeah, some of the choices of that were weird. Although, speaking of cameos, I did notice, and I got a little kick out of the Dr. Strange and Thor cameos we had in here. Oh, yeah. Yeah, those were fun. I feel like there was something like that with the comics, too, because when Phoenix
00:54:30
Speaker
you know, has her big energy burst, you know, we, we touch on and then there was the watcher too, you know, that's right. I knew there was someone else I was forgetting. Um, well, well, the one, the, the problem with the cameos is that if, and I went back and watched the, the other, the original Phoenix saga, uh, episodes right before
00:54:53
Speaker
And there's another Dr. Strange cameo in that as well as, uh, there's a hellfire club cameo. So when, so when she activates, you know, you, like they were setting up, uh, here's, here's what's going to happen next. You know, here it's coming down the line and that kind of thing, but you know, it.
00:55:13
Speaker
The only problem with that is that having the two Dr. Strange cameos in two different episodes, like, man, what, you know, Dr. Strange should be like, you know, running down the street to help out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, they, they did a few of those little cameos. I remember in the, um, in the episode when, uh, Magneto establishes asteroid M that, and he's picking up a bunch of mutants in Africa and there's a Black Panther cameo.
00:55:40
Speaker
Right. He's kind of watching over the whole thing. And they had done a few of those here and there. And of course, they did have, you know, they did a crossover with Spider-Man eventually. Yeah. Yeah. Those were fun episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Although the animation in that was even weirder because it was like even it was even cheaper animation than they use in the X-Men series. Oh, yeah. I remember thinking it was very odd because even some of the coloring was just very off.
00:56:07
Speaker
Yeah, it was almost more washed out. Yeah, like everything was lighter. And I'm just happy that, you know, that they have the same voice actors. So you at least have the continuity there and
00:56:22
Speaker
that that this was, you know, all the same universe and that sort of thing. Well, apparently there was some rights issues with that, like just doing that, you know, was like two or three party. It was apparently there was a lot of red tape they had to cut through. And so much so that when they did when Spider-Man did Secret Wars at the end of its in the last season, they originally wanted to bring all the X-Men in, but they couldn't because of the rights issues. That's why they had that little story thing where there was only enough energy to bring one of the X-Men.
00:56:52
Speaker
Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because they just bring storm. Well, so I think also, I'm not mistaken. They had the Fantastic Four in that. And also, they had Iron Man and War Machine. And I believe those are the same actors from their respective animated series as well. Yeah. Yeah. I remember Iron Man and War Machine sounding the same.
00:57:21
Speaker
Pretty sure the Fantastic Four, I feel like it. Because I rewatched the whole animated series in Spider-Man. And I keep planning on like, oh, I'll get to Iron Man and Fantastic Four here in a little bit. From what I recall, the Fantastic Four one was universally reviled. Iron Man, if I'm remembering correctly, people hated the first season, but the second season they liked a lot more.
00:57:48
Speaker
Yeah, well, they upped the animation quality. It's like, I feel like they must have went to a different animation house. Well, the first season, they were trying to do like kind of like a, it was like kind of almost like a GI Joe mess of the universe type thing because they had like force works going up against the mandarins. And in the second season, they got rid of force works and they got rid of all that stuff. And it was just Tony on his own. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:15
Speaker
I do remember the quality being a lot better in the second season. And plus they like, they redid the opening. Um, yeah. Yeah. The opening of the first season was like a weird CG kind of thing, but then later on they, they, they, they opened with a really cool, like, uh, uh, like raw and you know, grunge rock kind of opening and he's like just slamming the hammer. It's, it's just, it's so much more like,
00:58:43
Speaker
striking, I guess. Yeah, I remember that as well. And most of them mentioned. And then they had the Incredible Hulk cartoon too. I remember that being pretty good as well, especially in the second season when they brought in She-Hulk. I remember that being well received. Everybody loves She-Hulk. Yeah, yeah.
00:59:04
Speaker
All right, so anyway, any final things to add about this four-part, which is basically, you know, it's basically a movie split into
Final Thoughts and Audience Engagement
00:59:15
Speaker
four parts, right? It's like, it's an- Yeah, it's just, it works as an adaptation and they made it fit, you know, with the bigger animated series kind of story.
00:59:34
Speaker
Um, you know, despite the, the watering down, I guess you would argue for a kid show. I still think it works. Uh, and, um, there's, there's always something awesome about, um, a duel with Cyclops in a three corner hat. Um, but yeah, I, I like it. I, I had a good time rewatching it.
01:00:02
Speaker
this time around and kind of remembering how fun it was. And I've forgotten about the golden tree. At least I- Oh, yeah, yeah. When she starts showing off her powers and she turns a tree into like, I think it's, she's supposed to turn in the gold, right? Just to- I think so, yeah. She like transmutes it into solid gold. Yeah, pretty much same thoughts as you.
01:00:31
Speaker
even with the watering down, I mean, this is still the best adaptation we've gotten of the Dark Phoenix story. And the series benefited from waiting until the third season to do it. So we had built up and we had seen Jean's power level grow because if you remember those early episodes, most of the time she didn't even go out into the field. She just kind of hung back at the mansion most of the time. She was just passing out. Yeah, she passed out a lot with like making the orgasm boys every time she did.
01:01:01
Speaker
Yeah, I also never understood why they went with the ponytail in her costume instead of just the full hair like they did in the comics. I don't know you think it was easier to animate. Maybe, maybe that just because she has like a like a because it's.
01:01:16
Speaker
pinned back, it's almost like an off. Yeah. Yeah. That was just kind of a weird choice that I remember rewatching these episodes. Um, but yeah, it, they did a pretty good job. You know, some of the, the voice acting, like I said, doesn't hold up. Some of the animation definitely doesn't hold up, especially when they, they incorporated like some shots of real fire in that edit. Yeah. Like when they, when they had that close up, when she's confronting mastermind and
01:01:43
Speaker
The shadows of her face, they have real fire there instead. It just looks so terrible. So some of that stuff doesn't hold up. But I do like that they do hint at the larger world of the Marvel universe, right? You get the creep and the scroll referenced in here. You get the Doctor Strange and Thor cameos. So I do like that they do give these hints of the larger universe that's going on around them too.
01:02:10
Speaker
And yeah, even though it's watered down, even though it doesn't hold up as well, it's still the best we've got so far, unfortunately. Yeah. Adaptation-wise, it is the best that we've got so far. All right. OK, Greg, anything you want to promote before we close up this episode? Not really.
01:02:36
Speaker
You can find me on, you know, I'd like to, hold on, let me start out.
01:02:44
Speaker
I wander around, uh, the hashtag X Twitter. Uh, you can find me on Twitter at, at never done. Right. That's a never D U N N right. Um, but otherwise I'm just, I'm just a fan that, that loves this stuff. And, and yeah, uh, message me about X-Men stuff and we'll chat about it. And I, you might see me, uh, on certain X-Men Facebook groups, uh, just, you know, throw my opinion out there.
01:03:12
Speaker
OK, great. Well, thanks a lot, Greg. And we're going to take a break here, and then we'll do our episode on Dark Phoenix. So for those of you listening, you're going to have to wait a little bit. But yeah, tune in next time for our discussion of the Dark Phoenix movie, where I'm probably going to give myself an aneurysm.
01:03:32
Speaker
All right. But until then, you know, head on over to SuperheroCinephiles.com. You know, hit us up on Twitter and Instagram at SuperCinemapod on both of those. And please leave us a review on iTunes or anywhere you get your podcasts. Thanks so much for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
01:03:52
Speaker
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01:04:14
Speaker
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01:04:44
Speaker
Good night. Good evening. God bless.