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00:00:01
“Why Are You Always So Defensive?”
8.8k Plays3 months ago
One of the most common questions Scott and Jess get about Robot Unicorn is: “Was your communication always this good? How did you learn to be less defensive and stop fighting in your relationship?”
In this episode, Scott and Jess dive into their journey from high school sweethearts to happily married parents. They share valuable insights on:
- How to move past defensiveness and truly listen to your partner
- The importance of anticipating each other's needs
- Why validating feelings isn't enough - you need to get curious
- How to have difficult conversations without accusations or blame
- Building a foundation of safety and trust in your relationship
Listeners will gain practical tips for improving communication with their partner, even during challenging seasons of life. Scott and Jess's honest, unscripted conversation offers a relatable look at the work required to build a strong relationship. Whether you're newlyweds or long-time partners, this episode has the wisdom to help take your communication to the next level.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
Learn more about The Body Safety Toolkit here!
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Transcript
Introduction and Listener Feedback
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Robot Unicorn. We are so glad that you are here. As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
00:00:17
Speaker
Okay Jess, I want to start this episode a little bit differently from other ones that we've done. We received in a bunch of the previous episodes DMs and comments about how we communicate and the way we disagree on things. And people seem to think we have a relatively healthy way of communicating with each other, which I would say at this point in our lives is probably true. So I'm going to read a DM from someone. Okay. And then I want us to discuss that. So it's not really
Understanding Communication Styles
00:00:44
Speaker
a question today. It's more of a, I'm reading someone's DM. Okay. I love the episode on highly sensitive parents. The one thing that always sticks out to me is your communication. I send it to my husband so he'll learn to be less defensive and actually just talk these things through with me. It's hard because we get into arguments. I guess what I'm asking is, did you guys always have this communication or is it something you learned along the way? That's a good question. Yeah, I think that's a great question. I heard that from quite a few people over Instagram, but even in real life that listened to the podcast. like Like friends verse. Yeah. Friends family who listen and they go, Oh man, like you and Scott just have such a good communication style. You guys are really good at talking through things and I'm not there yet with my partner. And were you guys always there? How do you talk so easily and not get defensive and not yell at each other?
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, this seems to be a common theme for DMs that we're receiving about our episodes. So what do you think? I've been thinking about this a lot because I knew we were going to talk about this today. And yes, I think actually our communication and dare I say our marriage is in the best place it's ever been. Wow, really? She says with the question mark at the end. Oh, like you're asking me if I agree. Yeah, I'm asking if you agree. Yeah, I guess I agree with that. Is it like a wholehearted agree or just like? Yeah, I do. So I do think we're in a really good spot right now and we definitely have not always been in a good spot.
00:02:14
Speaker
No, I mean we got together when we were in high school. So we're high school sweethearts and that doesn't always work out well. But I feel like it kind of worked out for us in that we both are very different people from when we were in high school. I mean hallelujah to that. Like I can't imagine if we were the same people that we were in high school. That would not be good. I think obviously we're more mature, but also in the way we communicate, it's totally different. Like I came from a family that just did not communicate about anything. Or if you communicated, you were just angry about it. So. I would say I had a lot to learn and I learned a lot from your family actually because we got together when we were so young. I got to experience like the way your family interacted from a young age and I feel like that's shaped the way I communicate now and I have a lot of respect for especially how your dad he doesn't let anything linger and you're the same way. You don't like to let anything linger
00:03:10
Speaker
I can't.
Responses to Conflict and Personal Growth
00:03:12
Speaker
Like that's something people will know about me is if I'm your friend and there's something that's gone on in our relationship or something kind feeling something that's bothering me. I can't just stew on it, yeah but I don't come to you angry about it. I'll just be like, Hey, I noticed that this was happening. This is how I felt in my body. Were you always like that though? Yeah. Let's say in high school with the drama between all the girls and like your friend group. Yeah. I always hated it. I hated drama. Well, you hated it, but did you communicate on it? That's a good question. I mean, that's so long ago. I feel like I've tried to repress that. I feel like so. Maybe you remember better. I think when we were in high school, you were like, you're still a mild person, but you were kind of subdued. Like you didn't really put yourself out there too much. And it wasn't until university that you really pushed yourself to get out there and
00:04:06
Speaker
And then after your bachelor's degree and then you started working outside and like you were kind of already at that point leading and doing a lot of things. And I feel like you have definitely grown in terms of your confidence. So I think that has helped with your communication ability. Definitely. So it wasn't always like that. I don't think for you. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I think I was much more mild. I would never be the one to fight with someone yeah like being defensive, being angry. That is not my emotion that I go to. It would more be like. Okay, I'll just take it like more passive I think or like I gotta fix it Maybe more of like what we call a fawn response or it's like no, I just want to make everybody happy with me I want to make everything perfect. So I'll be nice and I'll be funny and I'll do it. Sorry. What did you call that? A fawn response? Like as a deer? Like a deer. Yeah. Okay. Have you heard that before? No, I haven't. So you have your fight response. Yep, which that's That's my response. You can't say, but someone in this room has this response. Okay. So there's the fight response, the flight response, which is like running away, not wanting to deal with it, laying in bed with your covers over your head, which I will say sometimes I get that response. I just don't want to deal with it freeze or just like stuck.
00:05:23
Speaker
which I will say I also get that response a little more often. I feel like people in general probably get all of them. Yeah, where you're just like, I'm stuck. I don't know how to move forward. I don't know how to communicate. And then we have a fond response, which is like, I'm just going to turn on or like activate these like charming elements of myself or being really nice or being funny or being caring in order to get someone to be in a good relationship with me so that they like me. I've never heard of that before. Yeah. Interesting. So I will say when I learned about the phone response, I was like, Oh dang, I feel called out because I think I can get there pretty easy where I'm like, I just want people to like me. So instead of dealing with my conflict, I will just become more likable and make sure everybody likes me in the room, but I'm not actually being true to myself. yeah I'm not actually resolving it. I'm just being nice. And I think we can both say that that is something that is still me. You still still kind of have that sometimes, but I feel like it's better than it was.
00:06:18
Speaker
I think I'm learning that it's actually not respectful to the person who you're in conflict with to have this fond response either because then you're not actually being truthful to them. Like you might be getting them to like you still by acting as a certain persona of yourself. Like even you, right? Like if we're in conflict together and I'm upset with you about something and you're upset with me about something, but instead of dealing with it, I'm just like trying to be super nice and make you dinner and be like friendly. But we're not getting to the root of how we're both feeling. It's just a mask. And eventually those feelings will come out. yeah So yeah, I don't know. That's been something for me. I think I've learned about myself over the years. That's been helpful in my communication style with you and just in general.
00:07:03
Speaker
So what we're trying to say is we were not always like this. The seeds of it were there. Yeah. The roots, the roots were there. I would say when we started dating, it was giving toxic a little bit. We are just becoming more and more ourselves on this podcast. So hopefully you appreciate the sense of humor. We shall see. We'll see. I say that because I was looking through, I have a bunch of notes that we had given each other in that period of our lives. And a lot of them were me to you, literally fawning. Fawn response. I notice that you're mad today. I don't know what I did, but I'm so, so, so sorry. Like, I hope you're not mad at me.
00:07:44
Speaker
And you're being mad at me for some reason, but you're not telling me why or just shutting me out, like giving me the silent treatment. And I'm like, no, no, please don't be mad at me. It's exactly what we're talking about. And like, honestly, if my daughter wrote those notes to a guy, what I wrote to you, I'd be like, end that relationship yeah right now. Not that I would say that, but that's what I'd be feeling. I probably would. Maybe I would even say it. So I would say when we started, we were two people who we were immature. We're immature. I feel like that's the biggest thing. We were very immature. And when you start dating at 16, yeah, you're going to be immature. Your brains are not fully
Communication in Marriage and Family Life
00:08:21
Speaker
developed yet. So it makes sense. So what did it take for us to communicate in the way we communicate now?
00:08:26
Speaker
How do we get from there to what we're we're like now? Which, maybe we should explain what we're like now. So, one of the things that historically kind of annoyed me about you is that you had to sandwich everything. Oh yeah, like where is this going? With like a compliment and then you say what you really mean and then another compliment. yeah that's what i And I think it's a term that people use. I call that the shit sandwich. I don't know. I hate that. I hate it when someone has to compliment you, say something nice to you, and then tell you what they really mean, and then say something nice at the end again. But a lot of people do prefer to get their feedback that way. And maybe this is me. I don't know. I feel like that's so inefficient. Like, just tell me what you feel. So logical all the time.
00:09:09
Speaker
let's not be defensive about it because I think the key thing is we have each other's best interests at heart. Like we're truly trying to do the best for each other. So then if you constantly have to sandwich everything with compliments, I don't think it makes sense to me. I mean, it makes those compliments disingenuous. Like that's not real. I just want to know how can I improve on this situation? Like, Oh, Scott, you had kind of an angry tone when you talked about, I don't know. I can't think of, I'm never angry, obviously.
00:09:44
Speaker
I feel like we joke about Scott being angry all the time. but He actually is rarely actually angry. Yeah. But we always joke on this show about you being angry. So just for the record, he's actually not an angry dude. by In general, I would continue. Where was I? You just get distracted. That pisses me off. There it is. There it is. anyway Yeah, I just feel like we have each other's best interests in mind, always. Or most often, I would say. So then us just having like real conversations makes sense to me. And I feel like for you, that may have been challenging at first, because you're like, I would say, Hey Jess, I think you need to do this better. Or let's talk about, I don't know. I can't think of a, can you think of an example of a situation where we talk like this?
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I Have a lot of things I'm thinking about right now. I Think just as go back because I don't think it's about the shit sandwich I think that's maybe a piece of the communication that you didn't like but I think what the shit sandwich to me symbolizes is me feeling afraid to tell you something right because if I tell you you might be a Defensive get mad at me right telling you and so I don't want you to get mad at me because this is how I Historically would think if Scott's mad at me and my world is now crumbling like I can't handle him being mad at me But I want to tell him this because how I'm feeling So I'm gonna candy coat it as much as I possibly can so that he doesn't get mad at me meanwhile I think I get more defensive if you So that's what he's doing with compliments
00:11:20
Speaker
Exactly. But if I think back to the early days of our relationship or our marriage, you didn't have the coping tools that you have now. So there was two things I think going on. Like if I were to say, Scott, hey, you're home all weekend and I'm away for the weekend with friends and I get home and you haven't done dishes all weekend and I can see the pan from the meals that you've made and everything's messy. This is pre-kids. I don't enjoy coming home when the house looks like that. I'm not going to be excited to walk in the door when it's a disaster, right? That's a fight that we used to have. But I would be worried to say that to you because your response would be like, well, I'll clean it up. I was going to clean it up anyway. And but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like.
00:12:03
Speaker
your your response would be angry at me for even saying that. And then if you responded at that time in our marriage with anger at me, and I'm just telling you something about how I feel now, all of a sudden there's this like disconnect in our relationship and I'm not someone who can tolerate that at that time. Now I feel like our relationship's crumbling. I'm crying. I'm upset. I'm like, Oh, it's okay. I'll just clean it up. Like, don't worry about it. I don't want to upset you. I'll just clean up the whole kitchen. Sounds very toxic. Yeah, I told you it was getting toxic in the early days. But this is, this is a common thing that happens. yeah Why? Because our defenses are up so that we don't get hurt. Right? So when your wife comes home and says the house is a messy disaster, you're not taking that as, Oh, Jess is just asking me to clean up. You're taking that as a personal attack against you, your character, the way I see you. So that's painful. That hurts.
00:12:57
Speaker
So instead of hearing what I'm saying, it's just about the dishes. Like I would like you to clean it up. You're like, I can't tolerate feeling hurt by Jess because I don't want to be hurt because I grew up feeling hurt all the time. And that feeling is unsafe to me. So it's better for me just to have my defenses up, get angry, get upset with her. Then I don't have to be hurt. Right. So I feel like we had that dance for the first little while in our marriage of one of us would say something to the other. We wouldn't want to be hurt by what that person was saying, because being hurt is vulnerable. Being vulnerable means you could be in a bad spot in your relationship and you could be left. You could be abandoned. Attachment issues. You see where I'm going here. Trauma, you know. Okay. I get it.
00:13:40
Speaker
We could be hurt, so it's going to be easier for me to be angry at you than for me to say the words that you said to me hurt me. So it sounds like I've really done a lot of growing and that's what has helped with the communication in our relationship. I would say yes. I would say that's a piece of it. AKA, it's all Scott's fault. No, that's not what I'm trying to go here. Once again, once again, me blaming you. That was not perfect. Just wait for everyone to come to my defense. I know. as ams I absolutely was not perfect.
00:14:11
Speaker
because I had a really hard time giving you feedback. I would internalize a lot of the stuff that was going on. So for example, I would walk in the door, I would see the dishes weren't done to avoid an argument with you about it because I wouldn't want to talk to you about the hard thing. I would just rage clean the whole kitchen and be in a bad mood with you. And that's also not a nice way to like see each other after a weekend away, right? And then you'd be like, what's going on? I can't read your mind. You're like, it's fine. That's fine. That's fine. And I just go internal. So we both just had these patterns of communication that weren't really healthy or serving us. But I think at the root of it all was like us not wanting to be in conflict with each other and us wanting to be in good relationship with each other, but just not knowing how to communicate in a way that was going to preserve our relationship. Yeah.
00:14:56
Speaker
And I think what that comes down to too is like attachment styles, right? Like you and the way that you and I both grew up, like you didn't have skills to communicate that were passed down to you. So you didn't grow up parents who communicated and talked about the dishes being done or who's folding the laundry tonight or any of those things. yeah You didn't have the tools to talk about it. I did see my parents communicate pretty well, but still had my own stuff as being a person who's very sensitive and takes on other people's emotions and just doesn't ever want someone to be upset with them. People pleaser, the people pleasing came out in in our marriage too, and that was really hard as well.
00:15:33
Speaker
So I would say the first couple of years of marriage, there was a lot of great moments. Well, our relationship in general. It was probably, it was quite a while of our relationship. I mean, again, we were very young. We were young. What do we know? We're also babies trying to be in a relationship together, right? like And we were best friends, so we still had a lot of amazing times. But I think when it just came down to some of those pieces, it was hard for us to communicate together. Are there any other times in our relationship that you felt like our communication was worse? I know the answer is yes. Yeah. And I know which what you're going to say, but I wanted to ask the question.
00:16:07
Speaker
I mean, I think the worst season we ever had in our entire marriage was after our third child was born. Yep. It was really, really hard. Wait, sorry. Of our entire marriage you would say? Yeah. Okay. In my opinion, I don't know about your opinion. And I wouldn't say it was a long season. No, it wasn't. It felt long, but it was really just a few months. Yeah. I guess of our relationship that's probably true. I feel like the stakes felt higher. Like, yeah, we had conflict when we first got married and there was nights that were really hard where we'd be upset with each other and go to bed angry and it wasn't the nicest. But I would say we were young, we hung out with our friends a lot. Like, yeah, we still have lots of fun. We still have lots of fun and we didn't have really responsibility. We were just having a lot of fun in our life. We'd work. I was still in school, you know, so it was okay.
00:16:54
Speaker
And then we got to a really nice place in our relationship after that, I think. Even the first few years of having kids, like we were in a pretty good place in our relationship, I would say. Especially once you started doing some healing around your own trauma. I was in school, we were talking a lot about communication, and I feel like we were in a really nice place. yeah And then we had our third child. And I would say leading up to having our third child, we were in a hard place too. And it wasn't all terrible, but you had just quit your job to work with me at Nurture First. Right. yeah right so Oh yeah, we were getting used to working together. We've talked about that before. Working together is not necessarily the easiest thing when when you're married.
00:17:34
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. So for those that don't know, in the November of that year, I think Scott quit his full-time job to help run Nurture First, our momma village with me to do kind of all the operations, tech, back end, like so many things that he was doing nights and weekends, like helping me with the website and all that kind of stuff. I was hoping it would just be the trophy husband, but that didn't really pan out. And like we needed his help and Scott and I are so different. Like Scott, you know, if you listen to this, Scott is organized. He's logical. He's an engineer. He's got a certain methodical way of doing things. I'm.
00:18:12
Speaker
Not that. Not that. I'm creative. I mean, I could never do an art project, but in terms of ideas and writing and writing and I'm passionate about psychotherapy and the work that I'm doing and how to support families. And I always want to learn. And I just want to teach and learn and get my information out there and try and figure out the best way to tell a story. But what I'm not good at is being organized. And Scott quit his job as an engineer and joined me to things that were not organized.
00:18:44
Speaker
and had no systems in place and it was just him and I and my cousin that were working together. And it was really hard on our marriage because now there's no separation between work and home life. And it was a pandemic. So we did it all from home with our kids at home. It was
Balancing Work, Family, and Communication
00:19:02
Speaker
absolute chaos. And I think we we always thought, oh, life will be better once Scott quits and we're working together. It'll be so great. But it was really hard on our marriage because it just made all these differences between the two of us that if you're just married, like you can work through those differences. But then when you also work together yeah and you're like, what the heck are you doing over here? you know yeah
00:19:26
Speaker
That was hard. So I think leading up to having our third baby We were just dealing with those differences and trying to figure out how to work together for the first time That was hard and then we're gonna about to have our third baby, but we didn't have any plan for a maternity leave I was self-employed so there's no maternity leave and We had nothing really prepped ahead of time because we were so hole behind on trying to organize things And then she came what four weeks early three weeks early. Yeah three weeks early Oh yeah. She came out 37 weeks in my head. I'm like, she'll come up 42 weeks. And then when she came up 37 weeks, I was like, what is happening? This is not the plan. I thought I still had at least three more weeks to prep for taking time off. And then she came and we were just. Yep. I mean, you were working the same that same day. So.
00:20:15
Speaker
Yeah, it was so hard. I feel like I haven't talked really publicly about how hard that was. I had no mat leaf. I couldn't take time off. I had a baby and like the same day I had her, I was like still having to do stuff. I had two ah older kids that were adjusting to being big sisters. We didn't have childcare. So I was home with three kids. And then at that same time, Scott and I were like, we should get just a very small office space so that we are not working in our house with all three kids there. So we got an office space, but it was terrible and Scott had to update it. So you were spending so much time updating it. And I mean, in hindsight, I would have changed so many things about the way we did things.
00:20:56
Speaker
to make things better for us. But that's hindsight, right? really So Scott was trying to renovate the office space and work on that and do all the other stuff around the house and help with the older kids. I had a newborn, like obviously having a newborn is a lot of work. Full time, around the clock feedings, but I didn't get a chance to just have a newborn. I had two other kids, a business and just a lot going on. So because of all of those factors, I think if it was just like, I was on mat leave and you were working a full-time job, it would have been a different story. But because of all of those factors, it was- Yeah, there was extra pressures on both of us. Yeah, there was so many pressures on both of us. It was so hard on our marriage. What do you think? Like, what do you think was for you the hardest point in all of that? Like in that period of time? Yeah. While trying to give you a break. Yeah, when you yourself also needed a break.
00:21:49
Speaker
Yeah. Like I was trying to do everything I could to make it so that you didn't have to work that much. The thing was you had so much compassion on me. You're like, I don't want you to have to work like this, but we had no other choice. Like I was the face of the entire business and it was now our livelihood. Like we had to continue working. I think that was probably the biggest. So there was a lot of different things that I had to do in order to try and make that happen. But again, we were. newly working together it was a pretty new business at the time so all in all yeah it was it was just challenging and we were very tired i mean having two older kids and a newborn i mean you're just tired in general we also had said to ourselves you know what in the next couple weeks like before we had our third we'll make sure we get our toddler sleeping well because we were still rocking her to sleep she was still going to bed like really late because she had adults to sleep a we love rocking our kids to sleep that's the cutest thing
00:22:41
Speaker
But we were still, she was two and we were still rocking her to sleep at the time. She was still having a long nap during the day. So she wasn't going to bed till like 10 at night. So that was a huge factor too. We didn't even have our evenings with just the newborn. Like we also had a toddler and we hadn't figured out her sleep stuff yet. and As we've talked about Scott's a very highly sensitive person, very sensitive to not sleeping. And now you were in charge of the two older girls sleep so that I could breastfeed a newborn all night long. And so you had to wake up a ton in the night too. yeah So I think the reason why, a huge reason why that time was so hard on us, we were not working within what you were capable of as a sensitive person. You had zero breaks. You were up all night with the toddler. You were like physical labor, trying to update the office, plus run the business, plus make sure my needs were taken
Overcoming Marriage Challenges
00:23:29
Speaker
care of. yeah And I think there was a bunch of times in there where you hit breaking points, which were fair. But then I think the struggle with our communication was that the breaking points were often at me like, Hey, you need to figure this out or you need to do that. Yeah.
00:23:43
Speaker
And I would be like, I can't. And then for me, seeing you struggling so much was so hard on me. And also it was really hard on me because I was like trying to take care of the kids and run a business and like do all the things. Plus still having a newborn baby who's literally attached to me 24 hours. a day like it, I mean, if we're describing it, it makes so much sense, but it was a hundred percent and the seasons of life where it's more, more difficult to have that communication because the environment in which you're living, I don't know. It's not conducive to us being in the best mental space.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah. And so both of us were in bad mental spaces. We both, I think found ourselves yelling and angry. Like I've never been a yeller as a parent. I was in that couple months and we both found ourselves angry at each other, at the kids. So do you think that's the biggest difference to why we communicate so well now? I think going through such a horrible season. And like, when I say that, I mean, and like there are so many nights I feel like I was just like crying in bed. Like, are we ever going to make it? Like, is this, is this going to be it for us? Like I genuinely, I was also so hormonal and postpartum. Like I was like, is this it? Like, I don't know. Can we recover from how hard the season is? Yep. And then we did. So i like, how did we did we do it? Maybe we got sleep finally.
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah. I think there was a huge turning point that I remember. And then we can kind of talk about why our communication is better now when we went away camping. Oh yeah. Yep. That's true. It had been, us I would say there's three months of just us just not getting along. We just weren't on the same page. We were constantly fighting. I was like crying myself to sleep with the newborn most nights. And then even if you look at my stories at the time, every single story that I did was like, today was a horrible day. Today was one of the worst parenting days of my life. Like there is proof just like looking back on the stories from that time. Anyway, and then we went away on vacation as a family of five. And that was the first time we went away, just us. And I remember on the way there, I was like, Scott, I can't work this week. Like I just, I have to take a break. I thought that was that year. Yeah. That's right.
00:25:47
Speaker
And you were like, yep, that's fine. Let's just not work for an entire week, which is big for us at that time. Yeah. And let's just spend time as a family. And we did. And I feel like that was a huge turning point for us. Yeah. It was like three months. Yeah. three months Three months in and then we came back from that. We had a couple of weeks home and then we went to the Netherlands for a month with our family to visit family in the Netherlands. And again, was Oh yeah, that was the same year. That was the same year. That was like right after we went camping. That's crazy. And then that also, I think that trip was like the reset that we all needed. yeah We were still doing some work on the trip, but we had the girls and we just enjoyed them and we just spent time with them and we didn't put too much pressure on ourselves. And I know that the answer is not always like don't work because that's just not realistic, but maybe sometimes it's like a reset, like just doing something completely different. And that really helped us on that trip. I i remember being like, oh my goodness, wait, do we like each other still?
00:26:45
Speaker
hold on, are we having good conversations? And I don't think we really argued that entire trip. Like we just had a really and thought i can remember nice time. And after that, when we got back, we were like, we need some help. And then we started recruiting the village to really support our family. And the girls went to school, like they were home and then they had school. So things shifted environmentally, which helped our marriage, I'd say substantially as
Building Trust and Effective Communication
00:27:12
Speaker
well. yeah And I think what we did then in the months following that is we built a sense of safety and attachment with each other. Now, if we go back to the original DM, yeah it's very possible that there are environmental factors that this person is experiencing yeah that. make it more difficult to communicate. But let's say what if they have the ability or they have the environment that should allow for a better communication, but they're still not having that communication. Like I think we have both grown as well in terms of the way we communicate and the way we understand the other person wishes to have things communicated to them. Yeah. So how have we grown to the point where we can have that that conversation and environmental factors are one piece of that.
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah, so it's easier to communicate well when your needs are taken care of and you're sleeping, all those things. But you're saying like, how else have we changed our communication styles? I think a couple of things. First off, we've built a different type of attachment with each other, I think. What I mean by that is like, we talked about like when we started dating, you had like an insecure attachment with your parents, right? And I think most researchers and people who specialize in couples therapy, and I will say that's not my specialty, but I just know a couple things from being a therapist. I would say that the attachment style you had with your parents is the attachment style that you bring into all your other relationships. So there was not that sense of security or safety or even trust when we started being together because you didn't have that growing up. So you didn't have like, Oh, I i can trust someone. right I know that they'll have their best interests in mind. So that was built over repeated exposures to us just showing up for each other and trying to build that. foundation of a relationship where we could learn to trust each other. And I think that came over time that came with listening, like learning how to really listen and validate each other's feelings. Right. Yeah. Cause I would say one of the biggest pet peeves I have with
00:29:10
Speaker
Not necessarily therapists, but people who like validate constantly as I feel like they're not truly understanding. So like i've I've said that to you before, it's not enough for you to say, yeah, like that makes sense. Or I understand that when it's clear to me that you actually don't. Yeah. And you're not getting curious as you like to say about the I think learning how to get curious with each other has been. Yeah. It's not just about validation. I think that's important as parents with our kids too. Like kids understand when you're just placating, you're just saying, Oh yeah, that it's really tricky. I get that. And you obviously don't get it. Like we can see that with our middle daughter. She 100% understands when we're just validating validating. Yeah. Without truly trying to understand the situation. I have a really good example of this in parenting. Yep.
00:29:56
Speaker
So there was a situation that happened where we did communicate about it pretty good. So our daughter, this is our third baby, but we were in a pretty good spot at this time. She's like eight months old. She's not sleeping well at night. And I'm like upset about it. Like Scott, I haven't slept in so long. I haven't slept in like at least eight months. I'm so tired. And you immediately jumped to like, instead of validating, Hey, you're really tired. Like that makes sense. What can we do to like support you? You were like, well, just have to fix it. What can you do? Use your knowledge to fix it. the situation. And so you jumped right into fixer mode. And I was like, all I'm actually asking for is you just to get curious with me and have a conversation with me about why sleep feels so hard and then together make a
Expressing Needs and Expectations
00:30:38
Speaker
plan. Whereas you were just like, you know what to do? Just make a change and fix it and stop complaining about it.
00:30:44
Speaker
So that's like a really good example of, okay, now we have a conflict because I'm asking for something and I'm not receiving it. And you're trying to fix something because you think that's going to be the answer. So then I have a choice to either be like, okay, fine, I'll just do whatever you say. See, I would say in that situation though, I would not necessarily understand that you're just requiring validation. Well, that's where I was going to get. Yeah. So now then what I learned in that situation is I need to tell you what I need. Yeah. Be like, Hey Scott, I really want to talk about sleep, but I'm not looking for you to fix it. I just, I kind of want someone just to talk it out with me without you jumping to fixing it. Is that something that you can be okay doing with me? That's what I need right now. And then you can answer that yes or no. Right.
00:31:25
Speaker
But I think sometimes like just asking for what you need versus saying something, knowing you need something and then assuming that they're going to read your mind has been really helpful for us. I think we had that conversation or midway through our relationship. And I said to you, I can't read your mind. So if there's something you're thinking, but you're not telling me and you expect me to know it, we're not going to make any progress if you're not just telling me directly because I can't read your mind. And likewise, you can't read my mind or I can't read your mind. I think that's helped us a lot. And, having clear expectations, let's say the dishes situation, instead of me coming home in my head being like, those dishes better be done. Like if he did not anticipate that I want those dishes done, I'm going to be pissed. I think getting home and the dishes aren't done, I'm mad. Now what I would do in that situation is I would just communicate that with you ahead of time. If, and now you just know to anticipate my need. Oh, I know. Well, that's the other thing that that builds a solid attachment, right? You know that one of my needs is if I'm out with friends, it's not like a need, but like something that really makes me feel seen is if I'm out with friends and you're home with the kids, if I come home and it's like pretty tidy in there, I feel really seen and appreciated and hurt. So that's something that you try to do as an act of like, hey, I'm showing you that I know that this matters to you. And thank you. I've noticed that you've really been doing that a lot lately. Even the other day when I was sick, I came downstairs and the whole kitchen was clean and I felt very seen. So thank you. I did notice that. And I try and do the same thing for you. Like I know for you, you're like, wait, when do you do this for me? Yeah, what do you do?
00:32:59
Speaker
I'll give you an example. perfect Sunday, we could have made plans. We could have gone out, but I knew that you just got this new scanner and you really wanted to scan some items and do some 3D printing and watch Formula One. And like, I know all of those things are really important to you. So instead of making plans, instead of going out, it's like, why don't we just have a home day? Let me hang out with the kids. I would love to do that. And just give you some time to work on your hobbies because I know that that's something that really is important to you and fuels you. So I took the kids for several hours and just let you do your thing uninterrupted. Then you feel seen and you feel safe in relationship with me and you're getting that need met. So I feel like those are the types of things that we've learned to like anticipate what the other person might need. And instead of waiting for you to ask me or get angry or be like, I never have any time to 3D print because you make so many plans with everybody and I never have time for it. We try to see proactively what the other person might need. Right. And then I think that builds our relationship and our mutual trust and our ability to communicate with each other because we're both feeling seen. So do you think that's a common issue in relationships then where each partner is not trying to anticipate the needs of their partner? Yeah, I think so. Can you think that leads to defensiveness though in communication?
00:34:14
Speaker
It leads to feeling unseen, which can lead to defensiveness and hurt. Like for example, if I never showed any interest, which I did for many years in your hobbies, something that's important to you. If I never showed any interest in that and I never gave you any time to do it, but those are things that matter to you and that when you do those things, you feel filled up and then you can be a better dad, a better business partner, like all those things. I don't do too much engineering related work anymore, so it's kind of nice to be able to They're a value of yours, right? Scratch that itch. But if I make sure that our schedule is so busy and we always have stuff to do, and if you're doing it, I'm like, Scott, you can have all three kids while you do it. That's fine. And I never give you time and space for that. You're going to start feeling pretty unseen and frustrated, right? Like, I never have time to do this. like So then you would have a choice to either be upset with me and and mad or clearly communicate with me that you need it. yeah But when I can anticipate that before you even ask, that probably makes you feel the most seen and like Jess really gets me and she knows what I need.
Handling Defensiveness in Communication
00:35:13
Speaker
That's hard work to do. Like that only comes after knowing each other so well that now we know what each other needs. But do you think that's the basis, though, for having strong communication? Like, I just think about this DM that we we have been talking about and say they they want to discuss something about how they're raising their kids, like they want to do something.
00:35:33
Speaker
Oh, I see what you're saying. No, I don't think that's the basis. I think that's just something you can do that helps you build your relationship. I don't think that's the basis of sort of communication. Well, I think that's what they're asking though. This person is asking, how do I have conversations with my spouse if they are defensive? How can we have more healthy communication? I mean, there's just so many layers to that question, right? So it's first off, it's the relationship. And that's why I was talking about the anticipating building, right? Like that's one aspect. One aspect is how are you outside of these moments, building a strong relationship with your partner. That's where the anticipating their needs comes in. That's where listening and getting curious outside of the moment where you're having a complicated discussion or something like that. That's where that happens.
00:36:14
Speaker
And then in the moment, it's how are you guys talking about like being defensive? Like, do you even have those conversations about your defenses being up, right? Because a lot of the times we both have walls up when we're having conversations and we need to like soften those defenses so that we can have a true conversation where we're not getting angry at each other. But again, like sometimes that takes therapy and that takes a lot of time to get to a point where you can have a conversation without defenses being up. But ways that you can, I think, soften someone's defenses is like being mindful of how you're approaching the discussion. Like a lot of people will approach a discussion with like, well, you always yell at the kids. And when you yell at the kids, they do this and I don't want you to yell at the kids. So it's like more accusing them of doing something wrong.
00:37:00
Speaker
Right. And so if I come to you, Scott, you always leave the dishes out every single time. Immediately. I do not. Your defenses are going to be up, right? You're going to be like, what the heck? No, I don't. And now we're not having a real discussion. yeah So if we want to have a conversation with a partner where their defenses aren't immediately up, we also have to be mindful of how we are having that conversation with them. A lot of the times we're having conversations like in the heat of the moment. Like you just yelled at our kid, for example, and I'm like, You always yell when she does this, I don't want you to yell like that. You're still going to be defensive, right? So if you want to have a real discussion without being so defensive, it's like, why don't we take the time to have this discussion? Well, I guess it's kind of similar to how you talk about teaching your kids when they're teachable. It's the same thing. Have conversations when you can actually emotionally have that conversation and give yourself some time. Like, I think a lot of us, we feel this like need to like, Oh, I have to have this conversation right now.
00:37:54
Speaker
You and I have even had that where like, I am one to want to fix something really quick. And there's been times where you just need 15 minutes to just kind of cool off. And then we can have a discussion about something, right? ye So know your partner too, and know that maybe in that exact moment, that's not the time to have the conversation because they're heated. There's something going on for them. They need time to calm their nervous system and maybe you need some time and then you can have the conversation. And honestly, like I said before, I think one of the biggest things is you stopped validating me for the sake of validating me and like truly started getting curious. I've always found that to be the most annoying thing in conversations with anyone. Can we role play it out? Like give me an example of a time I validate to do. Well, you haven't done it in quite a long time just because we've had that conversation.
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah. But just for people listening who maybe try and validate their partner's feelings. Okay. Let's say we're using the example of you coming back from a night out with your friends or something like that. And there's dishes and you're really annoyed with me about doing it. And then you get angry. And then later we have the discussion. I say just like, that's actually very annoying to me that you come in all annoyed. And I don't think that's, that's the right thing to do. And you might be like, well, yeah, I can understand that. That makes a lot of sense. And it almost sounds condescending. Yeah, if if you're like, hey, say it to me one more time, then I'll be me validating you. Jess, it's it's kind of annoying when you come in all like rage cleany or annoyed after a night out and start doing the dishes and you don't actually have that conversation with me about, here's what I want. Here's what I'd like to have happen when I'm gone. I hear you. It's really frustrating for you when I come home and I'm so annoyed and rage cleaning. Yeah, that must be feel really hard and and frustrating for you.
00:39:39
Speaker
Yep, there it is. So that, that's what I used to do, right? I'm trying to validate Scott, but he sees right through it. He's like, you're just trying to validate me, but you're not actually understanding what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And that would just make me more annoyed to be validated because it's not true validation. You're not truly understanding the feeling that I have.
Creating Safe Communication Spaces
00:39:58
Speaker
So let's role play it again. We'll see if we can get to a point that's better. So say it again. I hate this. I think that these are the most valuable things. If you're listening to this and you like when we role play it out, ah let me know. And so I can tell Scott. Yeah, if you can come to my defense and ask that we don't roleplay ever again, that would also be fine with me. Okay. Jess, it's really annoying when you come in from being away and you immediately start rage cleaning because there was a few few dishes left. There weren't even that many.
00:40:31
Speaker
Yeah, I know. I came in, I saw it instantly. I was so frustrated and I just for some reason and felt like I had to clean it up. That's not on you. Like you tried your best to, to clean it up. And if I wanted it all clean next time, I'll just tell you that. And we can talk that through, yeah but that was probably unrealistic on my end to just assume you're going to have it all cleaned up. Yep. That's it. That's all I would need. I don't need. Yeah. It makes sense that you're feeling that way and like, Yeah. So that's just like clear direct communication. And then for me to know too, that when Scott's saying, I was annoyed when this happened, that's not a personal attack against me. That's him just trying to fix the situation and we can move on. Because what I would have done years ago is if you said, I was annoyed by this, I would have been like, you're annoyed by me. You don't like me. I'm an annoying person. You don't like who I am as a human being. And I would have spiraled on that to be like, now I'm not safe in relationship with you and I'm just going to start crying.
00:41:26
Speaker
So what we need to know too is that when our partner comes to us with something, whether that's in parenting or something around the house, it's not always a personal attack on our character and our relationship with them. They might just be trying to acknowledge something that happened. Is that potentially rare though, that people can interact in that way without feeling like everything is personal? I mean, it took us a really long time to get there. I think communication takes a lot of intentional work. Right. Well, I think we know that in like interactions with people around us that some people just, no matter what you do, take every single thing you say as a personal attack on them. Yeah. And no matter how you do it, it's always going to be a personal attack and other people are able to see the difference.
00:42:08
Speaker
It comes down to, it again, attachment, relationship, feelings of safety. So if the person doesn't feel safe in the relationship, then no matter what you say, it's going to be taken as, I'm no longer safe. Now my defenses have to be up. I have to guard myself, protect myself so I don't feel abandoned. So I don't feel like I'm alone in this world, right? So those feelings, so it's defensive. mechanisms that come up. They're all a way to keep the person feeling safe, but often what they do is they just push you further from each other and that makes it really hard to actually have a conversation. So I'm thinking more too about the person who messaged us and like what are some other little things that they can do. So we talked about anticipating the need, trying to build relationships outside of those challenging moments. We talked about not trying to come in guns a blazing to discussions, like wait till everyone's regulated and calm and then have a discussion. yeah We talked about trying to avoid blaming statements. Yeah, I think that's probably a big one is not blaming or accusing each other of doing bad things. Yeah, exactly. He'd be like, Jess, hey, I noticed that you put some things away and in spots in our cupboards that I was trying to organize them and now it looks like there was no reason for me to organize them. What can we do so that they actually stay organized? That's something that you've said to me before. Like coming with curiosity. Disclaimer, nothing has worked.
00:43:27
Speaker
It hasn't worked. It's still disorganized.
Accepting Differences and Modeling Change
00:43:30
Speaker
And so sometimes too, there is that piece of like, what do I need to accept about my partner? Like our job in relationship and I get this DM also a lot is like, how do I change this part of my partner? Like I think when you're coming into a partnership, you shouldn't have the mindset of like my job is to change them or fix them or make them believe the same things that I do. yeah A lot of the things that we've grown together is through modeling. me modeling maybe a certain style of parenting and you being like oh that's actually effective or me modeling a certain kind of communication and you thinking oh that's actually nicer when we communicate in this way or you modeling making some kind of change in the home and me being like oh that's helpful like so a lot of the change that comes in relationship it's just through living it out and modeling the way that you want to see things change if that makes any sense
00:44:19
Speaker
Do you truly think that that's how we have changed our communication style? I don't think there's any one thing. I think there's so many factors. Like if you say Jess and Scott, why do you guys have so good of communication? I think A, we're feeling safest in our marriage than we ever have. yep I think that comes from we are intentionally trying to show up for each other and see each other's needs and help each other feel seen. That comes from me for the first time ever in our relationship being like, I support you and I'm like curious about your hobbies. And I'm curious about the things that you enjoy. Like I actually sat and watched the F1 race with you the other day for the first time ever.
00:44:53
Speaker
And I actually, I will dare say I enjoyed it. Hey, it's the one Lewis won in, so you and our oldest daughter were very happy. We were very happy. And you, I think more than ever are like, Jess, you know what? Why don't you like make a plan to go out with a friend one night for dinner? Something like that, right? So you know that that's valuable to me and we are respecting what's valuable to each other. It's making us closer in our relationship. We're learning the ways that each other likes to receive feedback. I'm not candy coating things with you anymore. You might be candy coating things a little bit more with me, like being just a little more delicate in your responses to me, because I actually appreciate a little bit more of a delicate approach. I don't need the sandwich, but like, I also don't want you to be like, that was annoying when you said this and this and this. right You know? So I think you're being a little more gentle in your approach with me. A little less blunt. A little less blunt. I'm being a little more blunt and we're learning what works for both of us. I think that helps. We're not coming at it with like accusatory statements anymore. Like if you're upset with me, it's not like you always do this and this. And I'm not saying you always leave the dishes out. We're waiting for quiet. Do we ever do that though? I mean, in my head.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah, maybe in your head. but I feel like we've never like we've never been once to say you always do this or you always do that or you never do this. Yeah, it's not been our thing, but I know that is the case for a lot of people. I think our thing was more like trying to have discussions in the heat of the moment and just getting frustrated with each other over little things. I think that's a big one, is having conversations outside of the heat of the moment. Yeah, like so many times we just both need to just take some time to chill and then we're both like, ah it's fine. I think we've also learned to let a lot of things go and maybe that just comes with having three kids and being like, life is too crazy to get caught up on if the fridge is messy today or if there's some dishes still in the sink. It's kind of like, you know what, it is what it is. So I think we've also learned to radically accept maybe some of the flaws in each other or some of the things that are different.
00:46:46
Speaker
about each other so we don't let those little things. we're not I'm not trying to make you me and you're not trying to make me you. We are different people who operate differently in this world and need different things. And I think respecting that about each other has helped as well. I think we see the value in each other's qualities. Yeah. I no longer feel like, Oh, I have to like make Scott like me and communicate like me and be so organized. And you gave up on that one. Yeah. And I give up on being more guys. No, it's not like I gave up on it, but you gave up on trying to fit me into a mold. I'm not trying to force you to be organized. We're trying to make a system that works for you.
00:47:25
Speaker
Yeah, we're trying to make systems in the home that work for each other. So anyway, that's kind of like a messy answer.
Therapy and Continuous Improvement
00:47:30
Speaker
And again, I'm not a couples therapist, but what I do know about attachment and defensiveness, I think will be helpful here. And it could be worth going to see a couples therapist too. Yeah, absolutely. Scott and I have both done individual therapy. We've done therapy together. We've spent, I would say our communication is good, but we've spent a lot of time working on it. And we talk about it constantly. Like outside of the podcast, we do truly have, We don't only have these discussions on a podcast. We do actually communicate outside of it. Yeah, shockingly. Because I feel like it could also be that people think because we're on a podcast, we just turn it on. No, I would say how we talk here is exactly how we talk in private. We have a lot of conversations about things and we're pretty good at letting each other know when we need to work on something or we need some space on an issue. Like I had it recently where you were like pushing me to tell you how I felt about something and I was like, I can't tell you yet. I need some time and I need you to stop pushing me to tell you how I feel about this. And you were like, okay. And then like the next day I was like, okay, here's how I feel. But like honesty only comes. We can only be vulnerable and honest and have those kinds of conversations when we feel safe. And be a little more blunt with each other. When you feel safe. And so maybe it's environmental factors that you need to like have support. Having young kids is not easy. Like you're going to be sleep deprived.
00:48:51
Speaker
You're freaking tired. You're sleep deprived. You are up all night. If you have a baby, you are nursing. Like you just don't feel like yourself. Our communication has improved, but also we have older kids. yeah We're not in the throes of having a baby at home right now. yeah They pretty much all sleep. Everyone sleeps. What I said to someone in our real life who listened to the podcast and was like, I just want to be able to talk to my partner the way that you and Scott talk. I said, yeah, it's um sometimes it it takes time and like, that's okay too. Like it takes time to grow into that relationship with each other and it takes practice and intentionality on both ends. It's a two way straight. Like if I was just trying to communicate, but you didn't care, it would be really, really hard.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:49:30
Speaker
And so just give yourself some grace if you're in a hard season, especially that season right after having a baby or
00:49:37
Speaker
you know around that time, like with our third, like it's just a hard time. There's some great books out there too that I can try and link in the show notes about how to not hate your husband after kids or something like that that I read. So there's there's some great books out there too that can be valuable. Cool. Sounds good. Well, I think that concludes this episode of Robot Unicorn. I think we've covered a lot here and there's a lot for people to think about. Yeah. It's kind of messy, but hopefully people take something valuable from it. I feel like the end of 90% of our episodes, like, well, that was kind of a messy conversation and I hope that you enjoyed it. At least, you know, we're not scripted here. We just have conversations. We base it off of a question or today a DM. So maybe if you have other things that you want us to cover or questions you have for us, you can send us a DM or email or something like that. And we can maybe do a few more episodes like this where we take someone's comment or question. Yeah, I think that'd be great. Talk for a whole hour about it. We've got an hour of our time. All right. All right. We'll talk to you later. Thanks. Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We are glad that you are here. If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review. Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all. A five star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there. Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.