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“As A Skeptic Husband, I Couldn’t See The Value In Gentle Parenting.” A Conversation With Our Friend
9.9k Plays3 months ago
In this episode, Jess and Scott sit down with their good friend Josh to discuss the changes he’s made in his parenting style over the last six years. Josh candidly shares his experience raising his highly sensitive son. He talks about how a more traditional approach to discipline wasn’t working and his original skepticism around gentle parenting. This episode is packed with insights for fathers (and parents in general) who might be struggling to find effective ways to discipline without resorting to punitive methods.
Listeners will hear about:
- Josh’s initial resistance to “gentle parenting” and his transition into authoritative parenting.
- The challenges of raising a highly sensitive child and learning how to support their emotional development.
- How gentle parenting isn’t permissive but focuses on teaching emotional regulation and healthy boundaries.
- The emotional shift Josh experienced when he realized his traditional approaches weren’t working, and how his openness to change improved his relationship with his son.
- Practical tips for parents who feel unsure about how to manage big emotions and meltdowns.
In the episode, Josh mentions a podcast episode that changed his parenting journey. Listen to Jess on the Gent’s Talk podcast here.
Josh also mentions he owns his own landscaping business. You can find his info here.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
We’d love to hear from you! Have questions you want us to answer on Robot Unicorn? Send us an email: [email protected].
Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Appearance
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Robot Unicorn. We are so glad that you are here.
00:00:14
Speaker
So Josh is our friend. He's here on the podcast with us today. Hello. And Josh is our friend. We've been friends for how many years? Three? Probably two or three. Somewhere in there. Three. Our kids went to school together. Josh has three boys. His wife, Shannon, is a dear friend of mine as well in Scots. So all we're all good friends together. Hi, Shannon. I know you're listening. So my name
Josh's Background and Podcast Influence
00:00:35
Speaker
is Josh. My name is Josh Coleman. I have a A small landscape construction and design company based out of the Niagara region in southern Ontario, Canada. I have three boys, a beautiful, wonderful wife, Shannon. We live in the Niagara region as well. Born and raised, we grew up here. I haven't left. Shannon went north of Toronto for school, but then came back. and
00:00:54
Speaker
And we wanted to have you on the podcast for lots of reasons. First, Josh listens to the podcast and every week I look forward to my Monday text. I get from Josh with like a ah rating, a rating yeah of the podcast episodes. So only a couple, two out of 10s, only a couple. Exactly. So it's actually been nice though. Like you're one of the good friends who's like, Hey, like I liked this about the episode or we've actually made changes at least made changes based on your feedback. So I appreciate that. Yeah. So I, and I feel like it's kind of fun because we, Scott and I often talk on the podcast about our friends or the way that they contribute to the podcast, the page. It's kind of fun to actually take a friend on because I feel like in real life, like our good friends who you're friends with some of them as well, like they're very good supporters of the podcast and actually give us feedback and help shape. And we have a lot of friends that are parents and I feel like so much of that inspires the work that we do. So it's fun to actually like have you on and be able to show people like we're not,
00:01:50
Speaker
We're not pretending, you know, we're not pretending to have these
Initial Skepticism Towards Parenting Methods
00:01:53
Speaker
friends. No, but one of the reasons I wanted to have you on is I think your story of kind of like how we got to this point in parenting, which we'll talk about what this point is, is a lot of people's stories. And like, we've kind of talked about this before, but when you first became a parent, it sounds like from what you've said, you were a little bit more skeptical, perhaps correct on this style of parenting.
00:02:18
Speaker
And a lot of people call this gentle parenting. Scott and I like to call it, you know, effective discipline or research-backed parenting, but... Let's call it parenting. Parenting. We don't really need to call it gentle, but that is what a lot of people call it, right? And we come into parenting and be like, okay, well, I'm not going to be like those gentle parents. Like, that's kind of bullshit, if I can say that. Wow. So maybe let's start there. We don't even have kids yet.
00:02:40
Speaker
When you and Shannon were kind of thinking about having family, having kids, what were your thoughts on how am I going to discipline my kids down the road before you even just raise your kids and raise them? Yeah. Before you even had your own kids. Looking back, I'd probably say before we had kids, I didn't lay out like some sort of groundwork of parenting.
00:02:59
Speaker
I definitely know what I liked growing up, right? And Shannon definitely had her background where she was like, oh, I like this growing up, like this what we did, right? And same thing with with me, right? I feel like I had a very blessed childhood. I didn't have any trauma, no bad experiences that like, like look back on like, wow, that sucked. Like I wish I'd never had that as a child. yeah Nothing bad growing up, right? Looking back, like I'm never going to do that to my kids. There was nothing like that, right? So I can't say before we had kids, I was like, oh, we're going to do this differently because I don't want to have to put my kids through what We had right. So, and I know a lot of
Parenting Challenges and Tantrums
00:03:30
Speaker
kids don't have that. So I i know that we had a very blessed childhood in that way. Sharon's the same way. So I guess to answer your question simply, no, we didn't think about it too much. We had brief discussions, I guess, of the basic things of parenting, right? Like who's going to do this for that? Maybe how can we help each other with this? Right. But it wasn't like, Oh, when they're two years old, this is how we're never going to do this. So we're going to do that. Right. Because I don't want to do this.
00:03:52
Speaker
You weren't really having those discussions, really thinking about that. I mean, did we? Well, I did in my own head because I was working in the hair pair yeah i mean in your own head. But did we actually, the two of us have those discussions? Not really until we had like a toddler. I feel like, I mean, I feel like we always had discussions of like, we're not going to spank. Like, I feel like that was a big discussion we had because of how you grew up. Yep. And there was like certain things that you're like different to Josh, right? Like growing up in trauma, you're like, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. But I don't think we had like deeper discussions about like, you know, how are we going to respond to big feelings and how are we going to do that until it started to happen for us? Right. yeah And then when it started happening, when our oldest started having tantrums, that's when I had to kind of sit down with you and be like, look, this is how we're going to respond.
00:04:37
Speaker
And here's why. And you Scott, we're very skeptical. It took some convincing for sure. And they always say that to people cause I was just talking to someone this morning about it. She was like, uh, they don't have any kids yet. My husband's so skeptical of all of this. And I've tried to explain it. It's like, it's not a one-time conversation that you're like, Hey, spanking's maybe not the most effective way to change a tantrum. It's not like a one-time conversation for you, Scott. I know it was like many times and questions and, but how does this make sense? Like we talked about it a lot. I feel like you would have been very similar. But when we first recorded our parenting little kids course, we were recording it at night when our oldest was sleeping. And she would be recording and I'd cut her off halfway through a video and be like, wait, wait, I don't understand this. How does this make sense? And I would be grilling her saying, this doesn't make any sense. Like, how can your child not understand?
00:05:25
Speaker
that there's a negative consequence and you have to punish them so they know that this thing is wrong. Yeah. We would have debates in the middle of recording. We'd be recording the course and then I'd be like, okay, I'll add that to the course. So then I had to go back to the drawing board, rewrite the lesson. Okay.
Non-Physical Discipline and Emotional Growth
00:05:40
Speaker
So does this make more sense to a skeptical parent? And he'd be like, yes, that makes more sense to me. Okay. I I was so annoyed. I'm like, just let me record my course.
00:05:48
Speaker
Yeah. We're very similar, very similar, right? Like when you first have the baby, like babies are a lot of work, right? Newborns are a lot of work, but at the same time newborns are easy compared to toddlers and six-year-olds and feelings of emotion and people talking back to you. Like you almost want to go back to the newborn seat, but yeah, for sure. For us, it was the same thing. By the time Owen was maybe two or three, right? And started having those feelings, having those emotions, right? And like, well, no, I want to do this. Well, no, you can't do this, Owen, because of that. like and then you lose it, right? And that's where it starts. And then we had the same conversations at that point of, well, discipline, and how do we teach him and stuff like that? So when you're at that stage, not to interrupt you, but to interrupt you. you still o So Olin's having his first tantrums. He's starting to like, quote unquote, disobey or like not listen to you. What's going through your mind on like, how am I going to respond to this at that point? Like given that you hadn't really done a lot of reflection or talking about it, like what was your go-to response? For me, it was very much kind of the,
00:06:42
Speaker
I guess old school is the wrong way to to say it, right? But it's very much the very vocal discipline, like stop this, you can't do this. What are you doing? We don't do this, right? And just expecting him to understand that. Like Scott just said, like as a child, like how do you not know when you do something wrong and we discipline you or say you can't do this, why can't you see what you're doing negatively and how we're trying to correct it?
00:07:03
Speaker
Right. I told you to stop. Yeah. Don't do it. Don't do it. That's the end of it, right? Touching the stove, yeah. I don't need to explain more. Trust me, I'm in the adult, right? Like, I know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Then go from there, right? So, and that's where I was coming from more. So, a little bit more of, I don't know, authoritarian is kind of the wrong word to say. And discipline first isn't the right way to say it either, I guess. But I was very much reactive in those days of like when Owen's losing and it's like, or trying to do something wrong and I'm trying to teach him, no, Owen, this is, you can't do this because of this, right?
00:07:33
Speaker
We were very much like you both were totally against spanking and even I was as well. At the time, I had no problem with parents who spanked the kids for discipline because I saw it as a tool to teach. Right. And I'll be honest with that. Like I, so if you did it to your kid to teach them as two, three years old, like I'm not here to judge.
00:07:52
Speaker
You guys are getting through your day as you need to and I can support that and I get that right? Yeah, we decided not to so it was just trying to figure out other ways to discipline, right? So you do the timeout thing or you take stuff away, right that sort of thing, but without getting into Why is he doing it? So then that started that conversation of well, how can we be better teaching him not to do things as opposed to just being? No, no, no, no, right, right So you kind of felt like there was a piece of you that's like, I don't want to spank. Was there like an intentional reason behind that or it just didn't feel like something you wanted to do? No, I think it was just more. Yeah. It just felt like there's better ways, I guess. Full disclosure, like I was spanked as a child growing up and I never took anything negative away from it. It was to me growing up a tool to learn. I just looked at it when I looked at Owen. I'm like, why am I going to spank you for doing something you don't understand?
00:08:41
Speaker
Right. You're not going to process without, and this was me, even without having discussions or learning a little bit more about the background behind it, or even like the emotional science behind any of the, like the negative connotations to it and what can happen, but why am I going to teach you? Well, don't hit your baby brother by hitting you without even really like diving into like how I got to that point and in my head. That's where it was. Right. And I just, well, we're not going to spank you because it doesn't make sense to me that they correlate together. That's kind of where that came from. That told me that there was a piece of reflection on it, right? That you were like, okay, sure. Maybe I was spanked as a kid and like, I'm thinking about it now. It just doesn't make logical sense for me to do this to my son. Like there was like a little piece of reflection there on that.
00:09:23
Speaker
And then there's a piece of like, other people are spanking, that's fine, but that's not what I want to do. But then you were like, you said like maybe more of like a reactive parenting. So it's like, I'm going to put them in timeout or I'm going to take away a toy or something like that, which I think is so normal. Like that's a really normal trajectory for people because it's like, well, what other tools do I have? Like those are the tools. We've talked about that before, right? on Yeah. I think on the podcast where parents want their kids often to know that like you can't do, I don't know, something you're saying, don't hit your brother. So you want them to know that that's not allowed. So it seems logical to put them into a timeout for sure. as They at least know there is something negative that happens in that situation. That's exactly it. Like Shannon and I have had many discussions about this over the last couple of years. That first in the beginning, there were very heated discussions about this because I would be like, well, he's doing something wrong, but now there's no consequences for what he's doing wrong. yeah So yes, I don't agree with spanking, but it was a consequence. You do something wrong, you get spanked.
00:10:21
Speaker
Simple as that, or you do something wrong, you get a time out. Whatever the discipline was, so what happened to the consequence for doing something wrong? And you're not teaching kids that. And that's where a lot of my skepticism came from with everything, right? It was just like, well, I don't want to spank, but I get, you need to do something. And so we even had multiple conversations that I remember very vividly. I don't remember what happened, but I remember the conversation after the fact. I looked at Shane and I said, man, I don't want to spank, but it would probably help.
00:10:48
Speaker
right Like just in the moment, I'm like, man, just because then it would teach that you did something wrong. There's a consequence, yeah right? But spanking is not it. That's not the consequence you want to teach because of everything else. And I agree with that. And I didn't want to spank him, but just in the moment as a parent, it's very easy. And I get it yeah yeah for parents who do because I get
Adapting Parenting Styles
00:11:10
Speaker
it in the moment. It's like, you know what? You did something wrong. This is the consequence. yeah You need to learn. I think that makes sense. I'm so glad that you named that because I think so many parents feel that way, right? Well, this honestly is almost like a deja vu of our conversations that we used to have. Yeah, we used to have these same... You're saying all these things and I'm like, I just remember having these exact same conversations with you. Yeah, and I remember Scott would be so upset. He'd be like, well, what if they did this? And you would think it was the worst thing a kid could do.
00:11:37
Speaker
Then what? And I'd be like, well, then we're going to do this and like teach new skills. And what about the consequence? And like, you'd be like, but they need to learn. And I'd be like, they are learning. And we would have these like heated, heated discussions and it wasn't a one time conversation. Like we had these discussions. Especially during the filming of that. And we're filming a course on parenting. Scott's like, but I think that's what makes, not that this is an ad for parenting little kids course. So what makes the course so good is that as we're filming, Scott's like, yeah, but wait. So then I have to go back and rewrite the lesson. I was pissed off at you. I was so annoyed with you. I had to go on a trip to Germany for work. I remember we had to get it done beforehand so I could edit it while I was on my work trip. And you were so annoyed. Well, we were kind of annoyed with each other. You were so annoyed with each other. Scott's like, it's not logical enough. You got to think about a parent like me, and you weren't even fully on board yet.
00:12:28
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, but this is fact. And you're like, yeah, but it like make it make sense. You know, so that's, so that's where you were. And so where was Shannon in this time? Like, is she on the same page as you or is she like, Josh, like, I don't know. I don't know how I feel about this. No, she was definitely on the opposite end of you do something wrong. You get a consequence, right? Like that didn't really jive with her either. Right. Like no spanking was off the table. Like that wasn't happening. Right. even timeout. We did that a couple of times, right? Cause we weren't spanking. So we needed some sort of consequence, right? So you use something wrong. Okay. You're not listening out. Okay. Let's go take a timeout. Sit here. I think you guys talked about our recent podcast or one of the earlier ones you guys talked about timeouts and stuff, right? And it's just like, well, how are you like, that doesn't help your child either. You just go, you did something wrong. Can you go sit over here by yourself and figure it out on your own and then I'll come back and check on you.
00:13:16
Speaker
Yeah, and reflect on it when you don't have the ability to reflect it. 100%. Yeah. In the moment, as a parent, that's not what you're thinking. No, absolutely not. How do I teach you not to do it, right? So we tried the time out thing and even that didn't really sit with her because I think even without knowing what you're saying of like, well, the child can't process it. So it's not helping them. That's where she was leaning towards. It was something's missing here. Like this isn't working. And then obviously the kids weren't dealing with it properly. They're not processing what happened or their emotions. And it's just very quickly like, okay, I'm done. I'm sorry. And then they go back to what they want.
00:13:44
Speaker
And then you have the same behavior happen and you're like, wait, what the heck? I just sent you to time out for this thing. Yeah. Yeah. She was definitely more on that aspect where she understood that where I was coming from, like you can't just have no consequence. Cause like, how are they going to learn? Right? Like you need something to teach them that what they're doing is wrong and just like, no, don't hit your brother. Okay.
00:14:03
Speaker
and go and hit your brother again, right? Like what's stopping you from doing it other than you just saying it. So she was on board a little bit like at the time out or like taking some, like some sort of consequence or punishment for what you're doing without being physically view a server or anything like that. But without knowing what to do or how to get there, right? Or like something was just missing for her. And then, so that took a couple of years too of trying to figure out and dive into that a little bit more.
00:14:26
Speaker
how do we do this better to dive into the emotions of the child that help them figure out and regulate what they're doing, how they got there, how they can move past it. So I would say a lot of the parents who listen to this podcast are currently in that season where you guys were and what Scott and I were talking about where it's like one parent is like I'm on board. You know, I want to start teaching them about emotional regulation and I want to co-regulate with them and I don't want to send them to timeout and the other parents like you were right. And like,
00:14:58
Speaker
but hey, there needs to be consequences. This is not cool. And not everyone has a degree in developmental psychology. So yeah, exactly. And so in those years that you guys were kind of in that like back and forth, how were you shifting your mindset? If at all, or how were those conflicting conversations going? Like, was there anything that helped make change? Was there anything that didn't help? Just because like the number one question I would say, I get asked on recruit first, like,
00:15:24
Speaker
multiple times every single day is how do I get my partner to shift his parenting style? And it's usually referring to the male partner. And like, I feel like you're an example of someone who, yeah, you still have questions and we'll get to that at the end, but like of someone who went from that and like slowly kind of shifted to seeing things in a different way. So how did that journey kind of start or happen for you?
00:15:43
Speaker
You're going to cry. I'm tearing up just listening to you talk about that. It was just ridiculous. I was not expecting that. For me, I can't say that there was, well, actually very recently there was a moment that hit home, but it was been in a couple of years of changing perspective before that.
00:15:59
Speaker
Because the hit home moment was only in February or March or something right of this year, right? And going five and a half at that point, right? like so But up until then, I've been changing yeah my viewpoint ah on it a little bit, right? And it's just funny listening to you guys talk about when you built your first course and stuff like that, right? like So Shannon, I don't remember what course it was, but there was a couple of years ago where she bought one of your courses to help with something along these lines. I don't know whether it was dealing with a sense of kids or like trying to figure out discipline or something along those lines. If I will be completely transparent, I don't know all the courses you guys offer. I'm not like a big nurtured first like follower. like I know everything you guys are... like i
00:16:36
Speaker
I love you guys. I fully appreciate and support everything you're doing. But that's just, that's not me, right? I'm not diving into the nurtured first and everything that you guys offer, right? But that's all more my personality, right? Like going back to like, I don't have very great long-term memory for that. But anyways, so Shannon got one of your courses and she said, Hey, I want to do this. And she's explaining it to me and I'm like, okay, I guess like I can see where you're coming from. I don't really fully agree with that mentality of it, right? Like yeah it,
00:17:04
Speaker
I think i'm on the page of you guys know i don't like the term gentle parenting yeah but that's kinda where i took it right when she brought for so it's kinda like gentle parenting style course of like how do we. Lean into kids emotions stuff like that i'm like okay sure she's going it's x amount i'm like.
00:17:20
Speaker
Okay, can't just go to the library and get one for free like or look online. like like ah Just full transparency, right? At the time, like yeah as a skeptic husband, right? i'm like And this is before we were friends. 100%, right? Because i I couldn't see the value in it, right? yeah Because from my own personal view of like, Okay. Like gentle parenting, like Shannon will tell you too. I've been known to say
Building Emotional Connections
00:17:40
Speaker
like the hippy dippy emotional way of teaching kids, right? yeah Like it's just, I couldn't process it, right? So anyways, over the years I've become more accustomed to it and more bought into it. And I agree with it more, but I have to say it's a big part of, because of our own kids and who they are.
00:17:57
Speaker
Our oldest is definitely a very hypersensitive child. I also don't like that term because sensitive children, I find, have a very negative connotation when you say, oh, he's a sensitive child. It's a very old school way of thinking like, oh, like he's a mama's boy or he's just some like, he cries, he can't handle, he's not a man. Like anything like that. It's very negative, right? Whereas that's not it. Like hypersensitive kids are sensitive to everything. Emotion sounds like other people's emotions where people look at them, right? Like it's just because they feel differently.
00:18:28
Speaker
so differently, right? And what I was struggling with, with Odin growing up, is I couldn't relate to him. Him and his emotions and how he was processing and how he was dealing with things. Even at three and a half, four years old, I'm like, I can't help you. And that's where I was struggling. And that's why when Shannon took your course, that's really led into it more. She's like, we got to do more research. Like how do we figure out how to do better? Because she was not like wracked with anxiety, but she was feeling it where like,
00:18:53
Speaker
something's missing. and We're not able to help him, right? And he's lashing out or doing this, but we're not teaching him properly. Like the little consequences that we were doing with timeouts or taking things away or like, okay, sit here till you've done your supper, like whatever, have two more bites because you haven't eaten enough, right? Like yeah that sort of thing. They weren't really working and it was just, it we could see that it wasn't helping him. Very bottling up emotions, very bottling up everything that was going on.
00:19:16
Speaker
So then I was slowly starting to realize that I'm not able to help him. Like it's not working, right? Like what's going on? So when Shannon started pushing into more of the gentle parenting aspects and kind of look a little bit more like how do we dive into more of the emotional aspect of his growing and how he can process or like teaching him, well, why are you doing that? Right? Or what's leading to this? Or we need to do this because of that, like explaining more and talking more and stuff like that. It started to work.
00:19:42
Speaker
I was able to see when she would deal with him in a situation worked better than when I would deal with him in a situation. Night and day difference. Whereas when something was wrong, I knew something was wrong. I could see it on his face. It's not even like he did something wrong. Something upset him or I said something wrong or he couldn't do this. You just see it on his face and he would just clamp up. I'm like, Owen, what's wrong? He's like, nothing. I said, Owen, what's going on, buddy? You can talk to me. Nope, nothing. I said, are you sure? Nope, nothing. Three hours later, Shannon's home or whatever, and then he just lets loose.
00:20:11
Speaker
because Shannon was his emotional outlet, right? And I understood that, but then they were able to work through it and figure it out together, whereas he wanted nothing to do with telling me about it because he was worried about how I was going to react or how I was going to deal with it with him or talk to him about it, right? Like, yeah and it hurt, it sucks, right? Like, so then I'm sitting here, like, how can I help him? I can't relate to him. I'm not helping him, right? Like it sucks as a parent to see your kids struggling and like, you know, something's wrong.
00:20:37
Speaker
but he's not talking to me. I'm like, why won't he tell me, right? And I can't say it was like a fear thing. It's not like he was scared to tell me. He was just, I think he was already learning that dad doesn't help me properly. Dad's unable to help me work through it. He doesn't listen to me or he's just like, well, I'm more of a very practical based problem solver. And Shannon gets so frustrated with it too. Cause she's got a problem. She just wants to talk it out and figure it out. All the things I'm like, well, no, do this. This is how you fix it. Do it. Does that sound familiar Jess?
00:21:05
Speaker
And i'll I'll say it more often than not, what I say in the moment at first is what ends up working for her. I completely relate to that. it's And it's fine, right? But it takes you a little bit longer to get there. And she's got to process this and work through that and try something else. And it's fine. But a lot of times, probably 9 out of 10, it comes back to what I said first, right? But that's just because I process things differently. I'm more of a practical thinker, right? like And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just different, right? But Owen's more of that.
00:21:34
Speaker
So he can't process when I'm like, no, Owen, this is how you fix it. This is what you got to do. Cause he can't wrap his head around. Well, how do I get there? Why do I get there? How can that help me? He needs to talk about Philip Moore. And that was Shannon for him at three and a half, four years old. That wasn't me. So he wouldn't tell me these things. And it was just like, man, like I couldn't connect and I felt like I was failing. So then that's where it leaned more into where my shifts started happening. Like I started being more open.
00:21:59
Speaker
to trying it and listening to what Shannon was telling me and listening like, hey, we should try this. Let's try that. It sucked the first couple of times for me like and I could feel it in my body. It goes against everything. This feels so wrong. like Trying to talk to him about this or work like talk to him me in a certain way, like use different words. I'll be honest, sometimes listening to when Jess talks on the podcast about how she talks to your girls, it's just like in my head, I'm like,
00:22:23
Speaker
I can't. Like, it hurts me to hear you talk about how you talk to your kids in that way, right? Like, yeah but that's me, right? Because that's not how I'm wired and that could be how I grew up and stuff too, right? But that's just, I'm like, I can't process talking to my boys that way. And there's nothing wrong with it, but it's just that's not me, even though I can see the benefit of how it would help. yeah And that's where my struggle comes from.
00:22:46
Speaker
But over the next, I don't know, between four and five, we leaned more into that, paid attention more, enchanted some more research. Basically, I became a student of gentle parenting. Like I said, I don't like the term gentle parenting because I still hate that term and how it lets parents off the hook at times. But because of that, like I was leaning more into that like because I could see how it was helping Owen and then to an extent Liam and Shane when he gets there. right but I could see the difference. It was helping, but then still wasn't really clicking with me, right? Because just so against it, right? So skeptical or whatever. But then, and here's going to be a plug for Jess. Everybody, Jess is a smart one and she knows everything she's talking about and everybody should be friends with the therapist. But last February or March, whatever it was, Jess was on a podcast and I think I wrote down, I forget what it's called, the gentleman's. With Samir. Yes. Yep.
00:23:37
Speaker
And again, me and my terrible memory, do I remember what the topic of the conversation was? No. Do I remember all the words that you guys talked about? No. But what I remember is in the moment, bawling my eyes out on the way to the job site at seven o'clock in
Emotional Breakthroughs and Personal Growth
00:23:50
Speaker
the morning, I got a trailer loaded with a mini excavator. I got my 2500 loaded to all my tools and stuff. I got a triaxial gravel waiting for me and I'm bawling my eyes out at 7 a.m. in the morning driving to the job site, listening to Jess talk to Samir because I felt like I was failing.
00:24:05
Speaker
that I had failed Owen because of how he is wired, his sensitivity, how he oh ah how he works, right? It stopped me and I just up until then I felt like I was failing and it hit home. I realized that and it hurt. It sucked.
00:24:24
Speaker
And that's what was the final, like, okay, enough's enough. Like, something needs to change. I need to switch. And ever since then, he's been opening up more to me. We've been able to have good conversations about his feelings and his emotions because I'm listening better to him and what he needs and what he wants. And there was one time, Shannon could always tell after I listened to one of your podcast episodes, because if something came up, she was like, oh, you must listen to Justin Scott? This would be great. Like, it was so funny because there was one time he was just so angry about something. I don't know what it was.
00:24:53
Speaker
but just had to let it out and he just yelled at me. Just like, I'm a foot away from him and he's in my face and he just screams. Two years ago, I probably would have yelled back. I would have been like, enough. You can't do that. Why are you yelling? Whatever. And I just sat there and I looked at him. I said, do you feel better? He said, yep. I said, okay, what's up? I just, I just took it, right? It was just like, and I felt better because he felt better and he just looked at me. He was like, oh, okay. And then we talked about it and had it out. Right? Like, and it's just that shifting, right?
00:25:19
Speaker
I forget what episode it was, but the body positivity or something, right? And I was changing our baby, Shane's bum. I don't know. I was talking to him like, oh, Shane, I'm going to do this now. Just walking through it. And Sharon comes to her room. She's like, what are you doing? I was like, well, Jess says to do this or whatever. And she's like, oh, wow. And not that I'm saying everything that Jess says is a be all and all of parenting, because Jess would also never say that. Yeah, I would not agree with that.
00:25:43
Speaker
It works. There's ways to parenting and teaching your kids and diving into their emotions and stuff that actually works. And I've seen it firsthand. And it's crazy to see the shift in my own thinking. I'm still very skeptical of gentle parenting as a whole, yeah because sometimes I have a hard time seeing, like at the beginning we talked about, I don't see a consequence for actions, right? But I see better now how to get there without giving consequences, right?
00:26:11
Speaker
Well, verbal diarr yeah that was awesome. Roll the applause. Honestly, Josh, I feel like so many people are going to resonate with what you're saying. Yeah. Like so many people. I think especially raising like you're saying like a highly sensitive kid, right? Like you're trying all the things. It doesn't work for a highly sensitive kid because they just have so much going on inside their bodies. Like our middle child is similar to Owen. And it can be so frustrating. And I feel like, I think maybe I said this on the gen stock, but like highly sensitive kids get punished the most because they have the most yeah going on inside of their bodies. They have the most meltdowns. They have the most defiance, the most counter will. And like, I'm sorry, it made you feel guilty. I didn't know that. No, no, no. It was nothing like that. It was just more of a, it could have been anybody, right? It just happened to be you I was listening to, yeah right? Like if I had listened to
00:26:56
Speaker
Joe and Brittany talk about the same conversation, right? Who knows? I may have resonated the same way, or yeah hit me right? So it does make a difference that we're friends and I know you well, and I'm learning through you and what you're teaching yeah better, right? So that's why it probably did hit home a little bit more at the time, right? But I feel like I would have gotten there.
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah. Anyways. And I wonder if like because you're friends, you're like, oh, I'm more willing to listen to this because I know. 100%. So now I'll listen to this podcast. 100%. The only reason why I started listening to your podcast is because we're friends and I wanted to support you. Yeah. Right. And that's 100% where it started. Now, I don't miss it. I would never miss it, right? That's where I am. But like for when I'm working, I listen to the podcast on the job site. It's very much just kind of background.
00:27:34
Speaker
light, fluffy, right, comical and stuff like that, right? So it's not this, but I make sure that so Monday mornings, if I can get to Monday morning, sometimes it's a little later in the week, right? But Monday mornings, I'm still listening to this. but Yeah. And I think like what you're describing, I know people are going to find that so helpful because there's so many dads especially who are in that place who would like it's not working, right? I was just talking to someone this morning. It's like, I've been spanking, I've been doing timeouts, I've been doing all these things and my son, like it's the same thing. Like he's still having huge meltdowns and now he won't talk to me about it, right? And so for you to be able to be like as a dad, four years into parenting, I'm gonna switch my style and just like slowly switch it and see, and it's working. Like it makes sense that you'd be so passionate to listen to our podcast and you'd be so, pat like such a supporter because
00:28:20
Speaker
You see the change that's happening, right? And you see the difference between like taking a more authoritarian style where you're like telling your kid stop doing this and understanding development and all of that kind of stuff. Is there like a, not like a one thing, but like, is there like, you hate it when I ask you for one, I know, but like I'm thinking about the dad listening. Who's like, oh shit, this is me. Like I have a highly sensitive child. yeah I'm a regular dude. And like what you said about my scripts, right? And the one thing I want to say about that is like, I'll give a script for how I talk to the girls. And Scott will even make fun of me on most podcast episodes about how I talk to the girls. How's your heart today? Yeah. Oh, that one thought. Yeah. Yeah. like Literally I roll, right? yeah Because I know people I roll me and i and and that's where it comes from where I kind of briefly touched on it. Like the in my mind, like the hippie dippy parenting. Yeah.
00:29:12
Speaker
okay But you know Jess and you know that's actually what she's asking too. I know, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's just different, right? I had a supervisor once and she was even more hippy-dippy than me if you can believe it. And I don't even think I'm that hippy-dippy, but anyway.
Adapting to Children's Needs
00:29:30
Speaker
I remember her saying to me like she was talking to someone and this was all new to me I was coming out of behaviorism which was at that time very much like ignore a child you know like behaviorism is like where give them a snack if they do something they give them a treat if they're doing what what's right ignore them if they're having a tantrum like that's actually how I was trained did that work in behaviorism for a while until I realized something wasn't sitting right with me either. Like I'm like, yeah, okay. There's research behind ignoring a child's tantrum. And eventually they stop like, this doesn't feel right to me. I'd have kids like attacking me and I would just sit there like just fully ignoring them and it wasn't sitting right. And so I switched my job and then I had a supervisor who felt super hippie dippy to me at the time, right? Because she was going to be called the hippie podcast. She was completely opposite.
00:30:15
Speaker
to everything I learned in behaviorism. And she would say these scripts with the clients that she was supporting, right? And she would always say, Jess, when you say a script, use it within your own personality. This is my personality. This is how I say it. You can say the same thing, but within your personality. She would always be like,
00:30:31
Speaker
It's not about the words that you say. It's about your posture. It's about the way that you're sitting with your child. And it's about your intention behind the words. So that's why I don't think there's like one script that you always have to say to your child when you're struggling, right? Like there's a difference between like, you're okay, you're fine. And oh, you're okay. You're fine. I'm here. Let's talk about it. Right? It's the same words. yeah So I don't know. I just want to say that to parents who listen, like I could never talk like you Jess. Like that's good. Like you're not me. You're not me. You're not me. Right? Like, I do not.
00:31:00
Speaker
Scott does not, Scott does not talk like me to the kids. No. And he uses his personality, which is a little bit different, maybe more funny, like maybe a little bit more ah like blunts and that's okay. So I don't know. I just want to say that. Cause I think, yeah, I think you raised a good point. The verbiage is basically the same. Like when I hear you kind of give your examples of what you're saying to the girls and how you're talking, the verbiage I'm using is the same. I'm just definitely using it in a different tone and manner. And yeah, you're saying trying it differently. Right. So.
00:31:27
Speaker
And as you should, right? Because it's you. And it will feel awkward. And, you know, even if you're trying to be like this, quote unquote, gentle parent for the first time, it's going to feel so awkward because you've never said these things before. And for most like dads, they've never heard anyone say this to them before, right? For sure. Yeah. Like you've probably never had someone be like, it's okay to cry. Like just let it out. It's fine. Like what? Like, no, wait, men aren't supposed to cry. Nope. Nope. So even telling that to Owen, it feels wrong.
00:31:55
Speaker
Yeah. Right, at times. but So of course, it's going to go against how you're feeling. like I'm telling my son it's okay to cry. Wait, hold on. like Boys don't cry. This isn't right. Did you hear me yesterday? No. what As you were leaving for your dinner? No, what? I said to her middle daughter when she was crying. I was like, just let out your tears of futility. Yeah, I did hear that. You're kind of joking at me. I was joking that a little bit. but And she did let out her tears. And that's an important thing. You're helping her while also patronizing Jess at the same time. Yeah, it's perfect. It's a win-win. He's teasing me and helping her, so that was great.
00:32:30
Speaker
Josh. So now you're at this point, this turning point, you listen to me on that podcast and I can link the podcast if anyone wants to listen. Cause it wasn't, it was a really good idea. It was a really good podcast and you're like, shoot, like I feel like I got to lean into words, like helping him with his emotions and stuff like that.
00:32:50
Speaker
As you've been doing it, what have you been finding that's like the most helpful thing? Like, is there one thing that you're like, this has really helped me. This is what I was trying to get at before, before you interrupted me. It's a good question.
00:33:03
Speaker
I have a hard time answering that because for me, it feels like it's just been a very long process, right? Like where I'm trying it one day and then the next day I almost throw it out the window, right? Cause I'm in the moment and forgetting what I'm trying to do differently, right? So you don't have a one thing. No, it's, it's, I wish I did write that. I can be like, Oh, this is what I changed. And this is how I fixed my process and my mindset, but.
00:33:27
Speaker
The thing that was the biggest light bulb moment for me was when Jess explained, actually close to my childhood home, we were driving right next past it, and I was asking her about like, what what consequence can we give our oldest for these? Because she can't have these tantrums constantly. They're disruptive. She's like throwing things. She's doing all these things. And when you explained that it was developmentally normal,
00:33:53
Speaker
It's like a child brain for their brain. This is actually what makes sense. And like once I started to understand, I guess, her better, the child better. Yep. That started the change for everything else for me. Once I understood the fact that like her brain literally has not developed the ability to restrain or manage these emotions like we we can now. Fair. Yeah, I guess that kind of would lean in more to where it started for me as well was realizing that what we're doing to help teach him, they can't process, yeah right? Like for like the time I was, for example, right? Like, why are we putting them over here to punish them for what they did and then just have them sit there? yeah They can't process what they did was wrong. Why what they did was wrong and the consequences of what they did, right? Like why exactly is it wrong? Like,
00:34:41
Speaker
How can it hurt somebody? How can it hurt this? Or why is it, yeah right? Stuff like that. So that's probably where it started for me as well. And then probably my light bulb moment was more just realizing that they're very different from me, right? In terms of emotions. So my children not talking to me about their problems is a problem. Like not being able to help them emotionally. Like I can help them physically and do whatever they like, teach them and all this other stuff. And that's great.
00:35:05
Speaker
That's only half of it. And I can see that, especially with Owen, who is more highly sensitive and feels emotion so much more in other people and the way you look at him or just tone. And the problem being, I have a very sarcastic nature.
00:35:19
Speaker
Very much so. I have a hard time making new friends because I come off as a bit of a jerk at times, just because I can be very sarcastic and that bleeds into our family life too. right like i like you The two of you here on this podcast, I teach Shannon a lot. I don't get it as much as I receive it, but sometimes I have a hard time turning it off a little bit. So when I talk to the boys a little bit. I can be a little bit teasing and sarcastic as well because that's just who I am. right rolls off Liam's back, he doesn't care, but oh, and because he feels emotions and tones, he can pick it up so much more. Right away, he's like, dad, what's wrong? Did I do something wrong? Because he can't process that. I'm actually just teasing, and it's a joke, right? so And I've had to fix that a little bit, right? So seeing that because he's so different, because he's so wired differently, and I can't help him, that's where, to me, it was more of a light bulb. Like, how can I help? He's not able to talk to me in the way that he needs to, or he's not able to come to me for anything. So what am I doing here?
00:36:09
Speaker
Right. Like I'm not parenting. I'm not his dad at that point. I'm just another guy who lives in the house. Right. Like, yeah. Just a roommate at that point. Right. Like, so how can I be the dad and and father he needs if he's not able to come and talk to me? Right. So I think what you're saying is so profound. Like I'm thinking about an adult that I know who had a parent who like so many adults that I know who are highly sensitive
The Role of Emotional Connection
00:36:30
Speaker
and their parents didn't understand them. Like and there's so many that I know.
00:36:34
Speaker
And what it would have meant for them for at some point their dad to be like, this isn't working. I'm going to try a different approach with you. Like, I feel like what you're doing is like, you have to give yourself so much credit because you do what you can with the information that you know, right? And the information you knew is like time outs and take things away. And we got to shape this behavior and I've got to be in charge. I'm the parent. Then as you learn new information, you're like, wait.
00:36:59
Speaker
There's a different approach and I can try it with him and I, in charge but you're still in charge. Of course, like you're still in charge. You're still leading and you're still the one teaching him, but you're just using a different approach that like works for him. And for you, I think as time goes on, like this is all fairly new. Like you're still kind of trying to figure this out with him.
00:37:17
Speaker
You will feel more connected with him and you'll feel like we have like you're deepening that bond like you were saying you're like I felt like I was Disconnected and I didn't understand my son, right? But now you're like leaning towards I want to understand you like let me help you like let's partner together and as you move into like the teen years like that's gonna go so far with him because you're shaping that now right and then he's a teen and he's feeling emotional about something. So be like, oh, I can talk to dad about it. a You know, like you're teaching him that right now. And I just think that's so cool. So anyway, I have a lot of respect for people who are like, it's okay. Like I can change what I was doing. It's not working anymore. Cause I think a lot of people are like, I have to commit to the style that I've been doing and I don't want to change what I'm doing. This is like, I don't want to change, right? And a lot of people are really committed and like hold their beliefs really close.
00:38:09
Speaker
and It's hard to make a change and it's vulnerable to make a change. so Anyway, I really appreciate that. For sure. I really liked, I don't know what it was, but you guys talked about it in the term re-parenting. I love that because that's how I feel. I've only been a parent now for six years and it's not like I have years and decades of experience as a parent that I'm re-changing everything I've done. right but even just like You talked about your experiences growing up and yourself as a kid. and Even though, like I talked about at the beginning, like my childhood was fine. I had a blessed childhood, right? There was no issues, but there was still just some things that I had to change as my own, as being a parent with my own kids, because my kids are so much different too, right? Like, yeah so. Your parenting the children you have in front of you, right?
00:38:49
Speaker
And I think we can talk about that too. Like I've had this conversation with my own parents. Like I had a great childhood too and my parents are incredible. And there's things that I'll do different because I have different information. And our parents didn't have this information, right? Like I remember my parents had a book about discipline, which tells me they wanted to discipline me in a way that was going to be helpful. And if you read the book, the book talks about spanking and it talks about timeouts and it talks about the parents being the boss of the home. And it talks about like children needing to have healthier fear for their parents.
00:39:17
Speaker
So like they were trying to learn and that's the material they had to learn from. So I think there can be so much compassion and we're trying to learn and now we have new material. well And just think when we're older and our, our kids are potentially having kids, like the field of developmental psychology will have progressed since then. And we may learn even more things that will be even more beneficial.
00:39:37
Speaker
I feel like I'm not going to feel offended if our girls are like, yeah, we're not going to do all the things. For sure. 25 years from now, they're going to look at you and be like, you guys were way off your rocker. Oh, I'm sure. Like, I already know. They're going to just change so much, right? And when that happens inevitably, and they're like, we're going to do this different, I'll be like, OK, yeah, that makes sense. I feel like that will potentially you will be more offended than I will.
00:39:57
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like I'm already, I'm pre working on it. Like I know we're all going to need therapy. Our kids are going to need therapy. It's a matter of what they're going to need it about. So, you know, that's going to happen and that's okay too. you know But we're going to try our very, very, very best to protect them as much as we can. So they need as little, you know, therapy as possible.
00:40:18
Speaker
But to go back to our conversation, like I think that is so key and I hope that a parent listening will have that grace for themselves too to be like, okay, I've been doing it one way and I did the best with what I know and now I'm gonna shift and maybe try something different and just see how it works. Like you don't have to change everything about your parenting right away either. And I know with Scott, when I explained child development to you, it was such a light bulb moment. Like I remember that moment because you were like, Jess,
00:40:45
Speaker
She's probably 16, 17 months old, right? She's having her first tantrum. She's hitting, she's throwing and I'm already in there. I know how I'm going to respond because I'm already in this field, right? And you're like, wait, like you're letting her get away with this. Like kids need to learn. Like, can remember you saying that like
Continuous Learning in Parenting
00:41:00
Speaker
kids need to learn, Jess, they need to learn. It's not okay to hit. I'm like,
00:41:03
Speaker
And she will. She will learn it. I promise you. But her brain does not have the ability to regulate her emotions on her own. It's not developed yet. So that's unrealistic. And I remember I like would say that to you. Your expectation of her to stop crying is unrealistic. So she will fail you every single time. And you're going to get more mad every single time because you don't have a realistic expectation of her.
00:41:27
Speaker
and like her ability to control her impulses when she's upset, she can't. It's not developed. So when you say, you can't throw toys when you're mad, and she continues to throw a toy because she's so overtired. She hasn't had lunch yet. like like Nothing is working in her favor and she still throws that toy. It's unrealistic of you to think that she wouldn't. like Her impulses are the only thing that's driving her. She doesn't have the ability to think logically.
00:41:53
Speaker
And like when I said that to you, I remember you being like, oh shit, like my expectations of my daughter everyone wrote this are not appropriate. And I remember you literally called your dad and you're like, dad, did you know some toddlers? yeah Like I remember you were like telling everyone you knew. because you was But I remember you being like, I grew up my whole life hearing like that kid's bad, that kid's bad, this person needs a spanking.
00:42:14
Speaker
And then when you realize, whoa, these kids aren't all bad. These two year olds are not bad. They just have an immature brain that's not developed yet. And it doesn't start to develop till the ages of like four to seven, right? It doesn't get to that point where it's like able to start controlling their impulses, right? Like that starts to develop over time. We start to see it between four to seven. It's developing from.
00:42:37
Speaker
It's always developing. And then when I explained to you, like the way that a child's brain develops and learns how to control their own impulses is through repeated exposures to your calm and you acting in the way that you want them to eventually act. So if you hit them.
00:42:51
Speaker
by spanking when they're upset you are teaching them this is what you do when you're upset like that is how your child learns if you teach if you send them away to be alone every single time that they're upset they learn when i'm upset i have to go be alone and like internalize this feeling and not talk about it and then we might see more behaviors because the emotions are never coming out right so then i i remember seeing that shift in you You're like, I'll sit with you and I'll let you have the tantrum. I'll let you yell and then be like, do you feel better? Yes. Okay, great. Now you've learned how to be calm during a tantrum because you've noticed that I'm calm when you're upset, you know? And now we see it, especially in our two older girls, our youngest is in the stage right now. Oh yeah. But honestly, we find it kind of cute now. Now we get it. Because we understand it. We're like, this is kind of cute. Fair. yeah Yeah. She throws something or is angry. And like this morning she, our youngest was very upset.
00:43:43
Speaker
And then we were like, you know what? She hasn't had breakfast yet. We should probably feed her. And then all of a sudden she was happy and singing at the table. And yeah, you realize like yeah our youngest is like being quote unquote defiant this morning. She's two and a half, right? She wasn't listening to me. She was throwing things. It's gotten her like, what the heck is going on? All of a sudden like she hasn't had breakfast yet. yeah You know, it's eight 30 in the morning. She's probably starving.
00:44:06
Speaker
I made her a jam sandwich, sat her down, she ate the sandwich, perfectly fine. Whole new kid. Yeah. Like, did she know? Started singing. Started singing. Like, does she need a spank for being defiant? No, she needed us to get curious, like, what's going on. yeah You're hungry, you know? I feel like we should talk about the fact that we're talking about spanking so much. It's just because we've been, you've been posting about that on social media. I feel like a lot of countries, like in North America, it seems to be a more common thing in a lot of other parts of the world. People say that it's not something that's even allowed.
00:44:35
Speaker
was illegal in a lot of countries, but, and I think also we are all from small towns yeah and a lot of people in our circles, like that is a method that's used, right? And so, and lately that has been something that just keeps getting brought to my attention. So it's on top of the mind for me right now, yeah which is why I keep bringing up spanking.
00:44:53
Speaker
Yeah. So that's what helped you. And I just think it's good to hear from dads, especially who are like, I changed my opinion on things and this is where I am now. So Josh, as we wrap up, there's still a few things you're skeptical about. Oh, I'm skeptical about everything still. That's good. yeah No, i'm not really, but it's, I guess my biggest skepticism is still the term gentle parenting because in my mind it's so much bigger than what people actually think. yeah Right. And I've done a little bit of my own research too, like really quick. I am not versed in anything. I don't even know if I'm looking at the right places, anything like that, right? But from what I'm seeing, right? Like it's very more, it's broader, right? But people use gentle parenting as a term to justify, I guess, their parenting methods that may not actually be gentle parenting, but it's more like,
00:45:43
Speaker
avoiding parenting, permissive parenting, right? Stuff like that. Like where it's, they want to be more friends and not actually teach them or like the kids are just kind of there or maybe they had kids because it was a social construct at the time. They got married, been around for a couple of years, killed, have kids, right? Doesn't, the kids don't fit in their lives. They still live their life. They were before and the kids are an afterthought, right? Like it's not a priority to them.
00:46:05
Speaker
But then they look at it as, well, it's gentle parenting these days. We can't discipline our kids. We can't do this with our kids. We have to allow them to do this. We have to allow them to do this but without actually diving into what gentle parenting is. You can still discipline your kids. You can still teach your kids respect towards other people and other kids. You can teach them what's right and wrong.
00:46:24
Speaker
And you can have all that without having to spank them, without having to give them timeouts, without having to be their best friend. Like you can
Insights and Reflections on Parenting Journey
00:46:30
Speaker
still be their parent and teach them all these things, right? But people, what I'm seeing and what but that's the sh struggle I have with the term gentle parenting is that people aren't actually gentle parenting or looking into what it is and they just use it as an excuse for a lack of parenting.
00:46:45
Speaker
Yes. And I think it's so important to differentiate. That's why Scott and I are getting away from saying gentle parenting. Well, we use it basically because people understand on social media. exactly otherwise and And that's where people take from it, right? Cause they can understand that, right? Like they understand the difference between gentle parenting and what they may have grown up with. Absolutely. Right. And that's where, fair enough. If we were to use the actual term, like I would say authoritative parenting is what we would The term we would use. but That's like the research back term, right? That's not a very marketable term. 100%. Right. So even just for having a conversation. like yeah And that's where all my initial skepticism always came from in terms of parenting this way and trying to lean into it this way was because of that and what I had seen in other parents around me with kids or seeing other kids and how they're being raised. And I just look at them sideways and I'm like, I don't understand how your kid can be so disrespectful.
00:47:39
Speaker
to other kids, other grownups, their own parents. And it's just okay. No, no, no, no, no. I know, man. Niagara region's huge. There's lots of people around. You're running into people and kids everywhere, right? But you know what I mean? And that's where my skepticism came from, right? So when I had my own kids, I'm looking, I'm like, I don't want to do that because I can see the negative connotations that come with that quote unquote gentle parenting style where in 10 years, this kid at school is going to be a menace to their peers, their teachers. They're not going to listen. They're going to be part of the entitled generation. They're going to be the bullies. They're going to be like, exactly, right?
00:48:16
Speaker
So, for example, we go to the library, Shannon took the boys to the library the other day and this young boy, Liam's on, there's a little tablet computer thing set up with the game in the library and go and do your thing. So he's sitting there with the headphones on. This little boy walks up to him, sits in the chair beside him, takes the headphones off Liam's head and said, it's my turn, takes, and just like takes over. And Shannon's like, sorry, no, Liam's having a turn. When he's done, you're gonna have a turn. And he's like, well, no, I want it.
00:48:40
Speaker
sorry, that's not how this works. You need to wait your turn. And then he got upset and ran away because a parent and a grownup was telling him no. Yeah. Right. But that's not something he clearly has in his life. Right. And it's just, and that's where gentle parenting hands off. Like you can't tell him, no, you can't discipline him. You can't teach like it's, and that's where my skepticism always came from. Cause I looked at that. I'm like, that you can't raise kids that way. Right. Because in 10 years, what is that going to look like? So I know. Yeah. I think it comes down to like you had a conversation with someone recently too, Scott, and they were like, well, don't you think you should say no to kids? And we're like, absolutely. And I think there's such a misconception out there and I think.
00:49:14
Speaker
Like you said, it's called gentle parenting. People will say, oh, I'm doing gentle parenting. But if you're never saying no to your kids, you're never setting boundaries with your child, you're acting as their friend, not the leader. That's not the type of parenting we're actually talking about. Again, we use that term just because social media understands it. Yeah, social media understands it. It's the term that people understand it can correlate with it, right? But if you're not actually looking at what it is or what you're trying to do, then If we want to look at the research and like what I like to say is like we teach a research-backed parenting approach, which is children who do the best, have the best outcomes later in life, the healthiest relationships, like all of that kind of thing. They have high levels of warmth from their parent, right? So that's the validation. That's the getting on their level. That's like allowing the tears, all of that.
00:50:01
Speaker
And high levels of control, which means boundaries, structure, routine, all of those things are really, really important chores. Like our children need us. And my favorite developmentalist psychologist, Gordon Neufeld, he always says children need us to be the leader, right? Like we have to be the leader in the home. They have to be able to rest and know that they are not the leader. And so we'll have kids who will try and become the leader of the home, right? The big meltdowns are telling you what to do.
00:50:32
Speaker
Like they need us to be in that leadership position because it's too much responsibility for their immature brains to be the leader of the home. And I think that's what I want parents to know too because they'll think like this approach is exclusively validating feelings or exclusively allowing emotions.
00:50:47
Speaker
And that is a big part of it. It's really important to do that. And our children need like boundaries around screens. They need to know when they take headphones from a kid who's already there, it's like, no bud, like it's not your turn. you know This person was here first. It's their turn. We're going to have to wait.
00:51:02
Speaker
child has a meltdown. Yeah, I'm sorry. I know it sucks. So you really wanted to play on the computer, but it's not your turn yet. Let's sit here and we'll wait our turn together. Right? Like it's that kind of structure and boundaries that children need in order to grow into adults who can navigate disappointment, who can create boundaries and structure for themselves, who can respect others. So.
00:51:21
Speaker
I hope people can take that away from this episode too and know that just because you're she're shifting from using approaches rooted in time outs or taking things away, it doesn't mean that you're letting go of all structure and boundaries. like yeah That is still there. And it comes with a high level of warmth and respect towards your child. so we have We still have lots of rules in our house.
00:51:41
Speaker
yeah I'm sure the boys tell you would tell you way too many rules, but yeah they're all based on discussions and conversations and explaining this is what's expected and this is why. right Our boys are very loud, as most boys are, but they know and they're reminded there's a certain level you have to keep it in the house because when you're six years old, standing beside your one and a half year old brother, yelling that loud, it's going to hurt his ears. It's going to disrupt him. It's not fair. yeah Right. And so they learned that and they know that, okay, like we're on trouble for being loud. We can be loud and have fun, but we have to be respectful and aware of what's going on around us. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And those are the kind of guidelines that help the kid feel safe. Right. Like if the child, even if they don't like the rule.
00:52:23
Speaker
A child with no boundaries or no rules is a child who doesn't feel safe, right? Because then they're just run by their impulses and they're just impulsive all at the time. like They need someone to come in and be like, let me guide you. Let me show you. This is how it's okay to behave. This is how it's not. We do that through teaching, not through sending them to figure it out alone because they can't. yeah They need us. So I think that's a really good example as well.
00:52:46
Speaker
You know what we should do. You rate us every week. We should get people listening. Do it. Do it. Please send us an email with your rating out of 10 and explain where your rating comes from. Sure. He loves constructive feedback. Oh, I love it. I feed off of it. Thanks, Josh. Thanks for being on. I'm glad. Thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun. I'm glad you got to be your first podcast to interview, and I feel like we'll have you back.
00:53:11
Speaker
It's the beginning of your podcasting career. Totally. All my voice acting and everything like that too. All right. Cool. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Yep. We appreciate it. Thanks for making me cry. Tear it up a little. As a parent, we cry a lot more than we used to. That's true. Are you saying it's okay for men to cry? 100%.
00:53:36
Speaker
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We are glad that you are here. If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review. Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all. A five star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there. Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.