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The #1 Reason Men Are Silently Struggling With Mental Health with Samir Mourani
7.4k Plays1 month ago
In this powerful episode, Scott and Jess are joined by Samir Mourani to have an open and vulnerable conversation about men's mental health. They discuss their personal experiences with anxiety, depression, and emotional breakdowns, sharing how they've worked to overcome societal pressures that discourage men from expressing emotions.
A few important topics covered in the episode include:
- The importance of having close male friendships where you can be vulnerable
- How bottling up emotions often leads to them coming out as anger later
- Ways to model healthy masculinity and emotional expression for children
- The healing power of therapy, medication, and having a supportive partner
- Finding hope even in the darkest moments of mental health struggles
This raw and honest discussion aims to reduce the stigma around men's mental health and encourage listeners to seek help if they're struggling. This conversation is an uplifting reminder that no one is alone in these challenges.
Hear more from Samir on Instagram.
Listen to Samir’s Ted Talk “Redefining My Masculinity” here.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
We’d love to hear from you! Have questions you want us to answer on Robot Unicorn? Send us an email: [email protected].
Learn more about The Body Safety Toolkit here!
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Transcript
Introduction and Purpose
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Robot Unicorn. We are so glad that you are here.
00:00:14
Speaker
I think you guys both have stories of getting to this point where you're broken, right? And you're like, I can't move forward anymore with the way that I'm feeling. And as we talk today, I thought it would be maybe helpful for both of you to share those stories, like as much as you guys feel comfortable to.
Men and Emotional Challenges
00:00:33
Speaker
Because I'm thinking of the dad who might be listening to the episode or a man, like I don't think it's necessarily a dad listening.
00:00:41
Speaker
who maybe has sent this episode. Cause someone's like, you might be struggling with your mental health. Like maybe listen to these guys talk and hearing the story of getting to that breaking point, maybe will help someone to feel like they don't have to get to that breaking point. Right. They can notice maybe some of the signs beforehand. Cause I think with both of you, your stories are, you know, men don't cry. We
Samir's Mental Health Journey
00:01:02
Speaker
don't have feelings. We don't acknowledge our mental health, all of these things. So then it got you to that point. And and my hope would be.
00:01:08
Speaker
My mission here is that eventually down the road, we raise kids who don't need to get to that point, right? We raise boys who don't need to get to a breaking point because they know from an early age it's okay. Like I'm allowed to have feelings. Samir, I thought maybe you could introduce yourself just a little bit to our audience who might not know you and then talk about what your mission is and then maybe we can talk a little bit about your story. Absolutely. Firstly, thank you so much for having me on. I'm on Robot Unicorn, which is so cool. Oh, we're so happy to have you here. I mean, you've helped us a lot with this podcast, too, and grow it to the point of time. The first time Jess and I met, and then after we recorded on Jen's talk, we had a brief conversation, and I was immediately hooked by the idea of what you're trying to do. and
00:01:56
Speaker
I like to try and support people who are doing meaningful things. If you said to me this was a podcast that was just talking about clickbait stuff, viral content. it just I've gotten to a point in my life now where unless there's meaning behind something, I don't really want to associate with it.
Transition and Advocacy
00:02:12
Speaker
yeah But to to answer your question or to introduce myself rather, it's something I've actually been toying with. I'm like, how do I introduce myself these days? Because I wear so many hats and I'm like, how do I do that?
00:02:22
Speaker
And then I was listening to, I think it was Simon Sienig, talk about stop introducing yourself by what you do and rather who you are. So I'm going to try it now for the first time. Okay. My name is Samir and I am a man who has struggled with his mental health for a number of years. And as a result of that, I've decided to make it my life's work to support other men. And I do that by hosting a podcast called Jen's Talk where we have conversations
00:02:53
Speaker
with experts like yourself, Jess, and actors, athletes, you name it, to pull the curtain back on what real masculinity looks like. I've suddenly found myself in the public speaking realm, which is really cool. I never thought I would enjoy that as much as I do. I did the TED Talk back in January of this year, and since then I've started doing more and more of these talks. I'm doing one coming up to talk to a an incredible foundation out west about gender-based violence and the role that the current form of masculinity plays in shaping young boys to grow up to become aggressive men.
Struggles and Coping Mechanisms
00:03:26
Speaker
Aside from that, I used to be a project manager, but I just i didn't find meaning in that. I did it because the pay was great, the benefits were better, and I just thought I had checked off all the right boxes. and I thought, you know what? I got the job, the one that I was always told I was supposed to get.
00:03:44
Speaker
and then I got married and I thought cool I'm checking off all the boxes look at me guys like I'm doing great I'm traveling I'm seeing great things next on the list was to have kids and then everything I remember one day I was sitting there on my couch thinking wow I'm so content And then it's like a week later, I was suddenly was, everything was flipped on its head. I was moved from an office that I felt so comfortable in because the people were great to an environment where nobody talked to each other, old gray walls everywhere. It really sort of just felt completely isolated. And then I realized I had actually been distracting myself with work all this time without really comprehending what I was avoiding.
00:04:31
Speaker
Because one, I didn't know what was wrong and I used to just bury it because that's what we've been told all our lives. Man up, be quiet, don't talk about it. Boys don't cry, they don't show emotions. If something's wrong, you bury it and you move forward. Shove that right down. Absolutely. And this was the true test of our masculinity. This is how we compared ourselves to other men. And the challenge is the goalposts are constantly moving. What it means to be a man today versus tomorrow versus last year is drastically different. And it could be by the time this episode airs, you don't know what comes out and happens in the conversation space.
00:05:05
Speaker
But I realized in that moment that something was really wrong because work was now no longer my source of fulfillment. And when I looked at the rest of my life, again, I'm married, I'm traveling, about to have kids, but something just didn't feel right. And I didn't know how to articulate any of that.
00:05:23
Speaker
And so I fell into this sort of depression, never formally diagnosed, but I just remember it was hard to wake up. It was hard to find any motivation in anything. I would sit at my desk at work, just staring at a blank screen for hours. Sometimes phones ringing, emails coming through, not responding to anything. My work suffered. I went from being superstar material to like, how did this guy have a job here type of thing? Very different from my personality in every way, but I didn't know what I could do. And then I went down the rabbit hole of, you know, let's just go on YouTube and figure out what guys do once they want to get out of whatever state this is. A lot of the the videos were about, you know, start going to the gym, change your diet, it'll help kind of to your point, get those endorphins, get that blood flow. And I wasn't overweight by any stretch, but it was more like I was just carrying some weight because I wasn't working out or doing anything.
00:06:16
Speaker
And I started going to the gym and I started feeling better, but I only realized later that I was feeling better because of the way other people were looking at me, complimenting me. And when you feel this small, the smallest compliment makes you feel this big. And so I took those compliments to heart and was like, I need more of that. So I kept going to the gym and I had dropped like 40 pounds in three months, very unhealthy in the way I did it. But I was like, I want more of this.
00:06:40
Speaker
And then suddenly I started getting all this extra attention from other guys saying, bro, you look good. Like you've been working out. What's the routine? Share it. Random women. And you're like, wow, you look fantastic. I love your outfit, whatever. But all of those little compliments started to really build me back up. But that foundation is not stable. And then what ended up happening was it forced me to really look inward and look at the relationship I was in.
00:07:05
Speaker
And it highlighted to me that there was something still off in my relationship. I was married and I didn't know how to articulate. I don't know what's wrong. Like I don't have the words for it, but there's something wrong. Fear of maybe hurting her fear of.
00:07:21
Speaker
not really knowing how to deal with the emotions right like there is no tool kit guidebook no one ever pulled me aside and said hey son this is how you do it my father never did that not because he's a bad man or a bad father but because he was never taught that you grew up without a father so he did the best he could with the tools he had and here i am trying to do the best i could with the tools i had.
00:07:42
Speaker
Except it was inadequate and there was nowhere to turn to to get that kind of reinforcement There was no men in my life that I could say to hey, you know I'm feeling a little bit weird and I don't even have the words for it You know, have you ever experienced that? I couldn't do that long story short The relationship started to falter. I didn't show up the way I wanted to as a partner, as a husband, as a friend, as a confidant, the way you would expect to with the person that's supposed to be closest to you. And I failed to show up the way I was supposed to. I worked as hard as I did to get to the altar and then packed it up and said, all right, I'm done. I've done the work. I've checked off the box. I don't need to put in the effort.
Pandemic and Emotional Confrontation
00:08:22
Speaker
And then one morning, she packed her bags and said, you know what, I can't do this anymore. There's a ton of stuff that happened in between, but yeah she left and I just sat there in my condo, 700 square foot, not big by any stretch, but it felt massive. And I was alone for the first time. I'd never lived alone. You know, I went from living with my parents to living with my wife to suddenly living alone. And this was March, 2020.
00:08:48
Speaker
And I thought, all right, well, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to do the one thing I know how to do very well. I'm going to distract myself. So I buried myself in work again, forced myself to find work I liked, went to bars and clubs and nightclubs and restaurants and hung out with friends and went to the gym. So I had good outlets and not so good outlets. yeah But I was distracting myself. I watched every sport I could find on TV, movies, you name it. And then, a black swan event happened. The pandemic rolled around, the lockdowns took effect. Suddenly, there's no sports on TV, and I couldn't remember a time in my life where there was no sports on TV. Couldn't go out, couldn't see friends, couldn't go to the gym. Good outlets, bad outlets, all gone.
00:09:31
Speaker
And I held it together for maybe a handful of days before one night I'm sitting on the couch and you know that Instagram filter, the black and white one that you can put on? It just felt like I was looking at a black and white filter. Like I can't even, I can't even explain how it happened, but it just, it's like my peripherals were gone and everything was just dark. And it all just boiled to the surface and I started, I broke down and I'm like, this is, I'm uncontrollably breaking down.
00:09:59
Speaker
It's funny, when I think about it, i it's still like, it was probably the hardest night of my life because I realized in that moment, it wasn't just the relationship that I was hurting
Therapy and Vulnerability
00:10:12
Speaker
over. It was everything up to that point that I had never resolved from, you know, my favorite uncle dying and at his funeral standing there and like tensing up to hold in the tears because I can't cry.
00:10:25
Speaker
Not because my dad said don't cry, but just because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. yeah You know, when I had my very first heartbreak as a teenager, my emotions are high, my hormones are wild, and instead of, again, just allowing myself a moment to go that hurt, bury them, and imagine what holding in all of that for years will do to someone.
00:10:48
Speaker
And they all boiled to the surface and then I went to wash my face and looked in the mirror and I didn't recognize the guy looking back at me. It was this ugly, angry, sad man just looking back at me. And in the TED Talk, I showed the photo. That was the first time I'd ever put the photo anywhere and to do it on a TED Talk is like... I'm talking about vulnerability and authenticity. I'm like, if I'm going to have this conversation, I'm going to have this conversation. And, you know, I don't I rarely shave, but I decided to shave like a handful of days before that. And so the my face is red. The tears are streaming. And I knew in that moment, if I didn't course correct, I don't know where I would end up.
00:11:29
Speaker
I didn't know if I had anyone in my life I could turn to. I had talked to my parents, I talked to my cousins, but I needed to actually work through it. And I knew that the only way out was through. I had to sit there and go, all right, Samir, we're going to open up this Pandora's box and we're going to have to figure out, you know, what's been holding you back all these years, you know, like this relationship, this passing.
00:11:52
Speaker
this job failure, this messy situation, this, this, this, and this. And I had to literally pull them all out, resolve every single one of them. And that's not an overnight process by any stretch. Work through that. It was the first time I'd gone to see a therapist. And I remember sitting in the office with the therapist for the first time ever thinking, oh my God, only crazy people come see me why am I here? You know what I mean?
00:12:16
Speaker
But it was a reflection, again, of this notion of what masculinity was supposed to be. I grew up watching Marlon Brando in The Godfather. And funny enough, I learned later how Marlon Brando was a very open and vulnerable human being, but he portrayed an iconic character that slapped around his godson for crying because he was fearful of something. And I thought, that's what I needed to do.
00:12:40
Speaker
But working through it all, I learned that one, I stopped caring, what other people thought. And kind of to your point, when you have people coming to you because you finally being authentic, there's a freedom in that. You stop caring. you know I don't care if someone looked at me and said, that guy's going through something. Because yeah, I am.
00:13:01
Speaker
yeah And you know what? You're not going to do anything to save me, only I'm going to save me. And so I have to go through the pain. I have to go through it. I have to go through the nights of breaking down again. I have to go through the nights of realizing this is where I screwed up, this is where I'm ah at fault, but also understanding where I'm not at fault, where I was blaming myself for things that I shouldn't have blamed
Social Media and Masculinity
00:13:21
Speaker
myself for. yeah And that, again, is not an overnight process, but in hindsight, the pandemic forcing lockdowns kind of expedited a lot of things. yeah yeah I was there for hours doing this stuff versus, oh, you know what? um I finished early from work today. I can spare you know an hour to to work on myself. yeah It's like, no, no, I'm, you know, I have my laptop up literally on the other laptop, just like reading, listening, watching. And it took a while to understand the difference between real meaningful experts, thought leaders versus performative masculinity. Yes. Right. It's difficult to know differentiate between the two sometimes. percent yeah i mean I get asked all the time, you know like why do a lot of these performative, masculine personalities on social media do so well? and It took me a while to finally come up with the words to explain why. I just like i knew there's a reason and I couldn't put it into words and then I thought to myself, well let's actually go through with what they're doing here.
00:14:19
Speaker
If you're a young man growing up being told, man up, be quiet, your emotions don't matter, you don't matter. And then here comes along a very charismatic, social media savvy influencer says, hey, I see you. I see the crap you're dealing with. And I can feel you because I felt the same thing.
00:14:36
Speaker
but come with me i'll show you how you actually get out of that except when they follow along this journey and they see other men doing it too because social media is public so you see the comment section you see other guys going yeah that's the way you do it and you go okay and then you see some women saying yeah that's what the definition of a man should be and you go okay so if i want to be with her and i want them to be my friends i gotta follow this route And then when they follow this route, it's basically just a different form of negative masculinity. It's still, don't talk about your emotions. You just have to go work out. It's a lot of working out, I feel like, right? So we're going on that same masculine trait, but it's like, let's just work out. Just package different. yeah Yeah, it's just packaged different.
00:15:14
Speaker
I wanted to talk about so as you're sharing your story you talk about like that moment that you're in your apartment your condo and you're breaking down and then we kind of jump to like going to therapy but was there anything in between that that like conversations that you had or Like, what was the first time, like, you actually said, like, look, I'm genuinely
Friendship and Emotional Expression
00:15:35
Speaker
struggling here? Because I know that that's a hard, yeah that's a hard step to make. So I surveyed my surroundings and thought, all right, who can I actually talk to? Went through my list. Can't talk to them. Can't talk to them. I've lost them in the divorce. Can't talk to them.
00:15:52
Speaker
And so I'm like, who am I going to be able to talk to? And funny enough, there was a ah guy who's now one of my best friends in the world. His name is Daniel Dearing. I was actually just at his wedding this past weekend. I called him because of a single conversation we had had, I think maybe two years earlier.
00:16:11
Speaker
where he had expressed a vulnerability to me about a relationship he was in and I'm like, I don't really know you and you're kind of telling me this. So I wasn't in a position to receive it. I was just kind of like, this guy is weird. Why is he telling you this? But I was like, you know what? Let me just send him a message and see if he's open to talking. I sent him a message and he's like, yeah, let's chat in an hour and pick up the phone and I'm ready to to talk about anything but the reason I was calling.
00:16:34
Speaker
And there was something comforting about talking to someone that felt a little more like a stranger than like a friend. And just to give you even more context, Daniel was my ex-wife's sister's best friend. okay Okay. So like even further removed, right? So in my mind, I'm talking to this guy that probably has all sorts of preconceived notions of who I am now because, you know, by proximity and relations, I'm the bad guy, I'm the devil. But he picked up the phone. And before I could really say anything, he goes, you know, Samir, I'm actually struggling today.
00:17:04
Speaker
I'm like, I said, hey, how are you? And he goes, I'm struggling. He's a beach volleyball player. He was actually in Paris competing for Team Canada. And at the time, he had just started his journey to work towards the Olympics. And he goes, I can't do anything. Not only can I not compete, I can't even train. And this is one of those things where I can't train at home. It's if I'm not training on a court, my body is not in a position where I can perform at an elite level when this We don't know how long it's going to be whenever the pandemic ends. Like you can hear the pain in his voice and I just thought in that moment, this is what vulnerability looks like. This is what it sounds like. And while I was already fearful of what I was going to talk about, I suddenly like felt myself just completely relaxed. And I just said to him, you know, I'm i' struggling. Honestly, I'm just struggling.
00:17:51
Speaker
I've never been in this position before. I don't know anybody who's going through a divorce. I don't know the first thing about this. I don't know how to reconcile the fact that I'm no longer so-and-so's husband, so-and-so's son-in-law. I'm now just Samir, and I don't even know who that is. And we talked for what was maybe two, three hours, just, what are you feeling? And immediately I realized him giving me that space. And it's not like he even said very much.
00:18:17
Speaker
It was mostly me talking, but him giving me the space to have that conversation immediately made me go, okay, I need to do more of this. Because maybe all these other people are onto something. Like maybe the talking is the thing. Like it sounds simple and to some degree it could sound ridiculous. It's like, all right, I talked about it, great, now what? yeah But sometimes it's literally just getting it out of your head and out and just be like, just get rid of it. And doing that was immediately, like I needed more of it.
00:18:45
Speaker
but then i you know still when i went to therapy i was battling that like There's like a person that's being paid to sit across from me right now, probably judging me and I'm probably like one of eight other people they're seeing. And they're only really just sitting there nodding and trying to be warm to me so that I can talk more and come back and spend more. And like I had all these like judgments without actually really participating in the therapy, like really giving it a real chance. And it took maybe four sessions But before then I, you know, I was finally like, still when I went to all therapy, I was right, I'm tired. Can we battling just talk? that like Right and now I try to do the same thing for other people and to your earlier point I always position myself as I'm not an expert. I'm not a trained psychiatrist. I don't have a degree in anything I just have lived experience. I went through hell. I saw the demon in the mirror. I went through the pain I I came out the other side. I'm so much better today than I ever could have imagined. And that old version of Samira that existed even before the pain doesn't hold a light to to who I am today because of the work that I've done. And I still have so much to do. Like this is not a once you're finally on the other side and you're healed and you're not grieving a past relationship or a trauma that suddenly you're good. It's like there's constant work you're doing all the time because life is constantly throwing you curveballs, right? Definitely. It's a lifelong journey. Yeah.
00:20:03
Speaker
Yeah. I always say that like to clients and even even to myself, right? It's like, it's always a journey. There's not like some finish line. It's like, okay, I'm healed. yeah That would be nice because that would be nice. oh that be great i gave what she always decline Like I wish I could give that to you, but that's not what it is. And to your point about therapy.
00:20:23
Speaker
I've heard that from so many clients too, right? They're like, well, you're only here because I'm paying you. It's like, well, it's more than that, right? And I think even about talking about how you feel, like it sounds so simple. You have to say how you feel, but it's not that simple because when you talk about what you feel, you're going through layers and layers of like messaging about, well, I can't share this. And will someone think I am ridiculous if I say that? And like, could be the first time you're actually speaking your story out to anyone fully.
00:20:50
Speaker
And the hard part is, is for a lot of men, I think they try and speak it out to another man and they might not know what to do or say, right? And so then they might speak it and the person is uncomfortable. Kind of like what you were describing when this friend initially told you his problems, right? You were uncomfortable. You don't know how to receive it. You don't know how to receive it because men don't talk about these things. So then I think that can give a message to, to yourself like, well then yeah, I shouldn't share, right? I shouldn't say anything because But how powerful is it that the first thing he says when you ask, how are you doing? Kind of struggling today. no Because when you talk with your buddies, how often is that? Maybe now that's more common, but how often was that previously the way people respond?
00:21:34
Speaker
Everyone's always like, yeah, I'm good. I'm fine. Oh, you know, work busy. Yeah. And that was it. And you go, okay, cool. And like, we know, we know if we probed a little bit more, they would probably say something, but we don't want to because we don't want to receive all that and then not know what to do with it. It's uncomfortable. right There's a sitting in discomfort. I think that's really hard. I mean, for women too, when we talk about things, but specifically for men, that it's uncomfortable when you call your buddy and he's like, yeah, I'm having a really shitty day. It's like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know what to say to that. I just wanted to go watch the game with you. And now I have to talk to you about this. I don't know how, because you don't even know how to deal with your own emotions, right? Is there anything more uncomfortable than talking about emotions for men? Like, I've been trying to think while you were talking there, if there's anything that could be more uncomfortable. I don't think so. I mean, I was really uncomfortable, even in that story where he was sharing something with me. I was just like...
00:22:33
Speaker
i I was just like counting. we literally had I remember it perfectly. We had come upstairs back to the condo from a party we were throwing for a family member downstairs. and It was him, myself, and another guy. and He shared that and I had whatever I was bringing back downstairs in my hand thinking, maybe if I just stand here 20 more seconds, I can then be like, all right, we should get going because they're waiting for us. How can I wrap this conversation up? Unfairly to him because he had always been the type to just lead with vulnerability.
00:23:02
Speaker
And again, when you consider that if that was his experience with me, and then I pick up the phone to call him to so to to try and express something, and again, he leads with vulnerability again, that's the hard part is you're going to get rejected at times. And for men, it takes a lot of courage for a lot of men to even start that process. And if it's met with a rejection the first time, you go, oh, see, that's why I don't do it.
00:23:24
Speaker
And in particular, if you're having that conversation like with your partner, so in my case, if I had that conversation with with a girl and she rejected me, and I told my buddies, like oh yeah, you know like i was we were trying to have a conversation, she shut me down. Those guys are gonna go, this is why you can't talk to women about this either, because they'll see you as less than, they'll see you as weak, they'll think you can't provide, you're not alpha or whatever. like I don't know why we start throwing around these Greek terms, but basically, like you're not capable.
00:23:53
Speaker
And you now take that in and go, I have to be uber successful, I can't show emotions, and I have to take all of everyone's challenges on my shoulders because that's what men do.
Teaching Emotional Expression to Youth
00:24:05
Speaker
We're the problem solvers. Just grin and bear it. yep yeah And somehow we're supposed to be okay by the end of it and we wonder why we grow up to be alcoholics, drug abusers, criminal offenders, not all of us obviously. but The stats are shocking and they're only getting worse. So like, where are we going wrong? And I'm very much a proponent and believer that it's easier to teach young men than it is to heal broken men. Absolutely. So how do we teach the next generation of young men that expressing yourself is not going to suddenly mean you're not a capable man in a relationship?
00:24:41
Speaker
And we see some of that on social media, but the ones that go the most viral are the ones that drum up the most amount of arguments because that's how it works. That's how the algorithms work, which is why performative masculinity has basically filled the void. And that is the leading discourse when it comes to conversations about what it means to be a man today.
00:25:00
Speaker
So, when we go all the way back to when I was introducing myself and I talk about the work I'm trying to do, it's trying to fill that void with another voice. Mine, the people who come on the podcast, the people I talk to, just to say, hey, let's change this narrative. Let's really understand what it means to be a man today.
00:25:19
Speaker
You can express your emotions, you can feel your emotions. No one's saying run around, cry to everybody. Time and place. If you're in the workplace, that's not maybe the best time for you to you know go around to your coworkers in the middle of a work day being like, I'm not feeling great. If you really need to do that, then take some time away. right But go work through it. When you're emotionally regulated, you're actually stronger.
00:25:42
Speaker
right then you can actually move forward that's what we're talking about and to talk to most men we almost have to take away the whole you know like it's okay to cry because sometimes it they're ah I don't want to cry. I'm not ready to cry, right? They're not there yet. They're not there yet. And so you have to slowly introduce it to just be like, yeah, man, you know, I'm actually really anxious because I might not get that promotion. If I don't get that promotion, I can't buy the house I want to buy. I can't get married. I can't whatever. And you start with something like that and you go, oh, yeah, I actually, you know, I'm struggling at work too. Yeah, I have this really terrible boss or I'm applying to multiple jobs because I just, I can't be here anymore. And then it's like, you do that. I guarantee the next time you go and you have a conversation with each other,
00:26:22
Speaker
You go a little further, a little further, and then suddenly you're actually having real meaningful conversations. And isn't that the trick to having a meaningful friendship and relationship with another human being is real connection, not surface level?
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, and I think even on that note and on a deeper level, when we can create real friendships, like real authentic friendships, that can actually help us in our healing journey too. Like I'm thinking about you, Scott, and I know you had a moment too many years ago, not to speak your story, you can say it yourself. But when we had our first daughter, I think there was a lot of time in your life that you were kind of like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.
00:26:57
Speaker
You've been through a lot of trauma as a kid and you'd witnessed a lot of different things. Again, I used work to sort of distract myself from that. But like Samir mentioned about the project manager, you also had a great job. You were making a lot of money. You had a great job for being just out of university. It's like all the things that you should have, right? Traveling around the world for my work. Like it was amazing in terms of the actual work that I was doing.
00:27:23
Speaker
And anyone who would talk about Scott would be like, he's doing great. You know, he maybe didn't have the best childhood, but he couldn't be doing better. He's a good job. Like that's what you should have. You make a lot of money. That's what you should do. All those things that provide for your family. And then when we had our first daughter, like that was your first moment.
Scott's Emotional Challenges
00:27:41
Speaker
Not the biggest one, I wouldn't say. but Definitely not the biggest one, but it was the first true moment where I had to sit there and think,
00:27:49
Speaker
Wow. I have not dealt with a lot of things that I probably should have dealt with before having a child. It was definitely one of my lower moments then and there were some... It triggered. Yeah. Can I tell you what I think is different between like your lowest moment and the moment Samir's talking about in that one? I've just been thinking about this the whole discussion. That one, it came out in anger. Yes. Right. It didn't come out in tears.
00:28:15
Speaker
And I think that's the case for a lot of men. That's that's the only emotion we've ever been allowed to express. Yeah, that's what we're... If you're sad, you have to express it through anger. If you're scared, anger. So he was just angry. Angry, quote-unquote. So you were mad. Yeah, not even... well, maybe specifically like specifically at one person, but in general it was just anger and it was outward. In every single event or situation I was in, it was just...
00:28:42
Speaker
I was uncontrollable, no direction to it. yeah yeah Just spray, anger everywhere type of thing. yeah yeah To your point, it's what ends up happening to us because we've been conditioned since childhood to think that you know if you laugh, you're okay. and When you're happy, you can express laughter.
00:28:59
Speaker
But if you're sad, fearful, anxious, depressed, you name it, anger. That's it. You know, you grow up on action flicks where the guy loses the girl, he's angry. That's how the story goes. And so we have to unlearn how to be angry almost.
00:29:16
Speaker
and then relearn how to express our emotions. And that's the part where, you know, when we talk about guys being very you aggressive and when you really have conversations with them, you understand to your point, it's just misdirected anger because they don't know how to express themselves otherwise.
00:29:31
Speaker
They don't even know that they have the permission to express themselves otherwise. I had an interesting conversation on Jen's talk with a doctor from CAMH, Dr. Ishrat Hussain, who actually talked about postpartum depression, but for men, particularly brand new fathers.
00:29:48
Speaker
because they don't know how to express the full range of emotions that they're suddenly feeling and they don't know how to share that and so they actually go through something as well but we don't actually look at it the same way because there isn't a biological change that happens.
00:30:02
Speaker
Right. So it was something that he brought up and he's saying that there's more and more conversations at least at the research level into that. And I just thought that that was fascinating because I mean, I don't have kids, but I have two of my best, closest men in my life. One of them is going to have a kid in like a month. The other one just found out that they're going to have a kid and they're both so excited.
00:30:23
Speaker
And I'm watching them going, I sincerely hope that they're in a position where they're able to work through their emotions. And we have these conversations. I have them with them all the time. Like the men in my life know that if you're gonna have a conversation with me, we're gonna get deep. It's not gonna be surface. Like that just doesn't happen. I know, that's our thing too with our friends. yeah I mean, that's how you have that real connection, right? But I think to your point about postpartum depression as a perinatal therapist, it shows up in men, anger, like how it showed up in you, gaming, gaming all the time, all of a sudden. I had that for a time too. Also showed up in you, right? It shows up in not being able to bond with the baby. It shows up in working, like being over productive. It doesn't typically show up in tears, but it is a depression, right? It just shows up in a different way.
00:31:10
Speaker
And I think that that's the case for many men, probably even that are listening right now, right? It's like, I don't know how to feel this way. These emotions towards my child. I don't know how to feel all of this. So it's going to come across in that like distraction, distracting myself and the emotions are going to come out, but it's likely going to be anger because that's more acceptable. I'm allowed to be angry. And then your case. Well, that's all. Let's say that's all I saw. That's all you ever saw, right? You saw angry men a lot. And so when you felt something, it was okay for you to be angry. That was okay. And then that situation in that time, kind of the situation kind of died down and you never dealt with the feeling underneath it. Yeah, I dealt with it, let's say 25% of the way. And I should have kept pushing forward and dealing with it, but it sort of felt like it went away for a time. And then, yeah, of course there's all these distractions. and
00:32:03
Speaker
Again, I'm so busy with work. I'm gone 50% of the year traveling the world. Then when I'm back, I'm trying to spend all of this time with my daughter and get all the activities in in that short period of time I have with her. And then I'm gone again. And I didn't really... There's no time for you to just... Yeah, there was definitely no time for me. And I was... The thing is, I would read all the self-help books in my travels and I would finish two books a week. But they never got deep. No. Right? It's self-help. Like, how can I make more money? How can I... ah Yeah, a lot of them were related to sales and... Yeah, sell things. Engineering and whatever different types of books, but not... Again, maybe... Like, even some psychological books on self-help, but I found that... But to Samir's point about the masculinity, that's like just enough, right? So maybe like just enough reflection that you feel like you're you're doing something, you're being different, you're moving forward, but never the actual work that makes you open yourself up and be so vulnerable. So like in simpler terms, this is sometimes how I reframe it for conversations
Gaming and Emotional Health
00:33:03
Speaker
I'm having. It's like,
00:33:04
Speaker
Saying you're gonna go to the gym Finally getting to the gym, but just deciding I'm gonna take a very casual stroll on the treadmill and I'm good. That's it. and That's where it ends It's like well, I got to the gym. I check. Yeah, but it's actually like when you're in the gym That's when you have to really do the work yeah same idea. It's like I just enough that, yeah, I'm doing some, I'm working on myself. Because that's the sexy thing to say, yeah, I'm doing work on myself. Yeah, exactly. right And then really only you know, and people closest to you know, it's not going very far. I'm curious about the gaming piece. Yeah. but Because I'm a gamer. Okay. But I use it as a tool to decompress. Yeah. There have been times where I just game excessively. I used to play a lot as a kid, stop because I was told that gaming is bad for you.
00:33:50
Speaker
And yeah, you know what I'm talking about. yeah And then picked it back up during the pandemic because it was the only real social outlet. I was able to to get on the headset, talk to some of my friends and play video games. And even now, it's mostly our social connection because we all live so far away from each other. So we'll go on, we'll play for an hour, an hour and a half, but we're just really talking and we're talking about life, we're talking about things. So I found that there's something therapeutic about doing that versus solo gaming, for example.
00:34:19
Speaker
I wonder if, Scott, you should like maybe share what that looked like for you when it was unhealthy. Yeah, and I think there's that's the difference. right like Gaming in itself is not unhealthy. It's more what I was playing. I would still play with buddies, but I would play, let's say, Warzone.
00:34:35
Speaker
and I would get so enraged by how badly I was playing. And it would just be every night and it wouldn't actually make me feel better. It would make me feel... Way worse. I would be angry coming back upstairs, essentially rage quitting because I was... I was playing so poorly. and In the past, I would play and I would be significantly better, but yeah, as I'm older, I guess my ah my reflexes are not as good. And I just, at a certain point, Jess asked me, are you sure that this is actually helping you? Because he would say it was to decompress. Yeah. Like I have to.
00:35:10
Speaker
And it was to spend time with people that I wasn't able to see and we would go on a couple nights or a few nights a week and I would, the problem is I would be playing. Like I would get obsessive over watching YouTube videos. Like how do how can I play this better? And I would play on the other nights too to practice. And that would be my issue. And then I would be unhappy every time I played.
00:35:30
Speaker
And to the point of like your big breakdown, which I think we'll talk about, but this kind of started when we had our second daughter. So maybe it just started during COVID. The first daughter was the outlet connect with my friends. And I think it started from like a healthy place. And then what I remember from my perspective is it turned into like, I have to play. And like, so if the kids were up late or they weren't like going to sleep when they were supposed to go to sleep and then you met the kids, why are you up? Like I have to play. I have to have my time. I have to have my alone time. I have to have my decompression time, but it wasn't decompressing. So then I would be upstairs with the kids trying to put them to bed and Scott's in the basement playing.
00:36:08
Speaker
and I can just hear him like getting angry and swearing and he comes upstairs and he's all mad. I'm like, how is this decompressing to you? Yeah. so I think that was the question you asked me. and like Yeah, and you couldn't. I couldn't answer it. You couldn't answer it. The one night I really had to sit down and say, Scott, like I'm concerned, not just about the gaming, but in general. like I think your mental health is struggling a lot after this like kind of continued till we had our third baby. yeah and If this is your way to decompress, I don't think it's working.
00:36:37
Speaker
It's almost as if, like, that was the only way you were able to manifest what you were feeling from everything else. Yeah. angry The anger could come out. Yeah, that's the one place that you had the permission to get angry, yell, and swear because everyone else that was playing with you also was probably doing something similar. Yeah, probably. And then, like, that was the whole thing. It was like, okay, this is the one arena that I can now be that loud, angry man. Absolutely. And get it all out of my system, except to your point, by the time you're done, you're now so...
00:37:06
Speaker
that you're like, I don't, yeah I couldn't sleep yeah even afterwards. Like how you're still thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. I remember you'd come up and you'd be all angry. And of course I'm a therapist. I'm like. I know it's not about this. Like, I know it's not about this. Like, the way you're getting angry, telling me about something, something like, who cares about the video game, right? But it's an outlet, and it's a way, and it's acceptable. It's socially acceptable, right? It was all of those things. Distraction, outlet, and whatever. Everything all wrapped into one.
00:37:36
Speaker
You know it's funny because i I associate or I equate gaming in some ways to why men take such like passion in sports. It's again another opportunity to finally express yourself in a loud way amongst other groups of men where it's acceptable because you see them doing it.
00:37:54
Speaker
And then I started thinking, okay, well, why do we like sports so much? Like, why do we gravitate to it outside of the the competitive angle to it? Sports is also one of those arenas that allows men to express emotions that they otherwise would not be able to. When you see, you know, a basketball player tap another basketball player on the bum, you don't take anything of it. You see a hockey player do it. They tap on the head, tap on the bum as they're changing, they score a goal, whatever. yeah They hug. Sometimes they'll kiss each other on the cheek. they so They cry. They show emotion. And we resonate with that. We love it. We want more of it. It's because we crave it. We want that connection. And we don't have an outlet to show it, which is why sometimes we'll gravitate to sports, even if we're not good at it, because we just we want that outlet. We want the ability to show that emotion. And in gaming, it does the same for me, too. There are plenty of nights where I've gone to bed pissed off because My buddy didn't push when he was supposed to and he didn't buy the loadout and we died. and like If you're a gamer, you understand this. It's just so upsetting even thinking about it. Yeah, I know. But it's been ah several years since I've played and I can still feel it. Yeah. yeah But like now I do this thing where I'm like, you know what? If I get mad, just remember Samir. It's a video game. yeah
00:39:07
Speaker
The real reason you're even playing this video game is because you're playing it with your friends. When they're not playing, I don't even pick up the controller. So that's the real reason I'm there. yeah And it's that constant just reminder for me. Still get mad. And Mila, my partner, will literally say to me, like, what happened? Who who upset you? And I would start listing it all off. And as I'm telling her, i'm just I start laughing. This is so stupid. Why am I even upset about this? yeah And I think it's good you have to have that awareness and the ability. I feel like for some people like Scott, like maybe that type of game we kind of recognized might just not be a good fit for you. And maybe now now would be different. But yeah, at that time it was not serving the purpose I was saying externally.
00:39:54
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, it was like, oh, I need this to decompress. But now a lot of the games that I play satisfy a lot of the needs that I have, but in more puzzle based games.
Breakdown and Realization
00:40:04
Speaker
Yeah. and And then I play it with the girls too. So then that... yeah Can't get mad there. No, exactly. Or if I do, they would probably call me out for it, right? Kids are the best for calling you out for all of the things that you do poorly.
00:40:17
Speaker
Yeah, they're good at shining a mirror into like the the things that you might be struggling yeah with, right? I wonder, Scott, if you're able to share about your point of kind of breaking down. Well, I mean, that's a lifelong. Yeah. I think what caused it. but In two to three sentences. In two to three sentences, yeah. I'm totally kidding. There was a public event that a family member that I do not have a connection with anymore that has been out of my life for several years now.
00:40:45
Speaker
they showed up to an event that they were not invited to. And I guess long story short, it resulted in me getting a restraining order, a peace bond, going through the whole court system in order to make that official that they were not allowed to attend anything or any location that we were known to be frequenting. They have to stay a certain distance away from me and the kids and Jess. Can I push you on something for a minute? Of course, always.
00:41:11
Speaker
I feel like I asked you to talk about the situation where you broke down and you're talking about the facts that happened after and not like good point the emotion that you were feeling in that moment. Oh yeah. Well, in that moment when this person showed up, it was probably the most Frantic energy that I've ever experienced in my life to end up having a cardiac arrest just because my heart was going Completely insane and saw red I don't even know what I saw like I all during that moment I felt like everything was just constricting and I saw I had tunnel vision and I spoke to very specific people to discuss the problem But I don't even remember what I was saying to them at that point. It was just
00:41:54
Speaker
So almost out of body experience, but in the worst way. It was kind of so to Samir's moment of like that black and white, right? It was like your entire life you've been able to be angry or be upset or just like have all these other emotions. But then when this person broke this one boundary that you had and showed up somewhere where your children were and I wasn't there and it was your breaking point in terms of feeling unsafe. There was this event with hundreds of other parents and grandparents and different people there. And I was just in the back pacing back and forth the entire hour and a half that we were there and just bawling just in the back. And there were people just standing around like, what is this guy doing? Yeah. And our daughter was like on stage. Yeah, she was on stage and doing this thing. And all those things are just compounding on top of each other on top of the fact that you're already feeling like you're about to just like, And he's like, I have to stay. Cause our daughter's on stage, but it's like all these years of your life, you didn't allow tears. You didn't allow yourself to feel what you were really feeling. And then just say they came out over the next for sure a whole year. But during that first two months of that experience, it was at almost every moment that I was awake, there were tears in my eyes. I was basically in a corner of our house, just bawling. The kids were all kind of wondering like, what's going on with dad?
00:43:20
Speaker
And they would come up and comfort me and all that, but it was just a release of all of those feelings. Not from that one moment specifically, but all of these moments leading up to it. That was the straw. Yeah, it was the straw. It was over 30 years of tears. Yeah, and all of these major life events that were either traumatic or abusive and traumatic, and all of these things are being brought to the surface, and there's no holding it back anymore.
00:43:47
Speaker
Can I ask you, in that moment, did you feel like you were anything less than a man? In that moment? Yeah, 100% I did. Yeah, I would say I shouldn't be... Get it together, Scott. Yeah. You literally would say that about yourself. Why can't I just stop crying? I have to be doing things. We have to be getting back to work. You were embarrassed. Yeah. Oh yeah. Definitely embarrassed. Because of course it happened in the most public. Yeah. I mean, even now, knowing what you know, being as far along as you are, if you were to suddenly start crying in public, that's an embarrassing thing for anyone. Yeah. Well, and I'm sure I looked insane because I was just, I was not running, but it was probably fast enough that it looked like I was just running back and forth in the back pacing.
00:44:31
Speaker
It was a very scary moment. I had a lot of people that I knew there texting me like, Scott's not okay right now. yeah im ju And it was, it was not good, but in the same way, I truly believe that everyone's tears eventually have to come out in some way or another. Maybe it's 35 years later.
00:44:47
Speaker
but like tears will come out. And so that was your moment where it was like, yeah, you were upset about that event, sure. But it was about all, like you were saying, it's about little Scott and the trauma that you went through then and like all of these losses along the way. And one final thing happened and then you hit that breaking point. And then you were forced to have to deal with your emotions. And like you talked about some of your same thing, like,
00:45:16
Speaker
you have a choice, right? And in that choice, a lot of people will choose not that it's like conscious, but like alcohol or drugs or getting deep into video games or porn or like an addiction
Cultural Expectations and Vulnerability
00:45:27
Speaker
because they don't have the tools or the resources available to deal with that feeling that they have. And that feeling is so awful and hellish, like you said, that you want to get out of it in any way possible, right? And I remember us talking about that during that time. Now, thankfully that was never the path for you. I know it's a little bit surprising too, just because of like on both sides of my family, there's substance abuse, there's significant mental health issues. My grandfather committed suicide because he felt like he couldn't share about any of his thoughts and feelings. And like even that event, I felt like I wasn't able to share, like cry because that's not what we do.
00:46:05
Speaker
So when you look back on that event now, you know, and as you're talking about, it thank you for sharing that, by the way. But as you're talking about it, again, I'm not an expert, but I noticed a little bit of shifting and discomfort from a bit more of that relaxed version of you that existed maybe five minutes ago. um What do you think about, like, if you can go back and talk to Scott that was in that moment, what would you say to him? Knowing what you know today, Yeah, good question. So you're talking about the moment that my lowest... Scott, that was pacing. Yeah. Yeah, good question. I mean, I would probably tell myself that it's going to be okay. Your children are safe. Because I think that was the biggest thing in my mind at that specific moment was, my children are unsafe, I need to get them out of this. And maybe even more deeply, it was me. Little me that was unsafe. That was unsafe, yeah.
00:46:56
Speaker
So I think a reminder of that, like, you are okay, you're safe, you're allowed to feel upset about the fact that this person is here, but you're not going to get hurt. and Your kids are not going to get hurt. I think that probably would have been the thing that I would have said in that moment, and that whether or not that would have fully calmed me down, probably not, but it probably would have brought me back a little bit more to reality.
00:47:19
Speaker
your body was existing in a state of your childhood emotions. Yeah. I believe in that moment. You saw someone who has hurt you as a child and you resorted back to being that 12 year old boy being hurt, right? Or whatever age that was. I think that's where your body remembered that and came back to that age and you couldn't access your logical. No. 100%. There was no logic.
00:47:41
Speaker
yeah And the irony of that too is I imagine, I mean, I don't know who the person is, I don't know what their build is, but I imagine you would be capable of defending yourself if you needed to. but You've seen me, I'm 6'3", I'm 210 pounds, like I'm not a small guy. Right. But in that moment, to Jess's point, when you go back to being that little boy who couldn't defend himself, you suddenly, despite your current build, feel weak.
00:48:04
Speaker
yeah And I've heard victims of abuse talk about that, where when they come face to face with their abuser in any way, it's like they resort back to feeling helpless. They can't, even if they can physically take them 10 times over, it's like all the strength in their body just wears away and they're helpless and they're afraid and... that one Yeah, 100% that was that's exactly what I had in that moment. Like I said, there was no logic or reasoning with me at that point.
00:48:32
Speaker
And they feel like the months even after, right? it It takes a lot to get back to your present state. So you feel like even the months after, like all the tears that you had, it was tears of all these things that happened to you as a child and as a young adult and adolescent, like all of those tears came out and you weren't in your adult brain anymore for a while. It took me a bit to get back there. And what would you say in smear? I want to ask you the same question about your healing journey and what's been helpful to you. Cause I now know like if someone's listening, they're probably like, okay, so I'm not alone. Then my mental health, other men are never alone. Yeah. And other men have been in this state and a friend was describing this to us recently. Like a dark cloud is over their whole life. Yeah. And everything is hopeless. They feel as though nothing will fix this and they're going to have to deal with this their entire life. This feeling of this crushing weight of life.
00:49:24
Speaker
And everyone's story is different. Every person who gets to that breaking point might have been through something different. It doesn't always mean you had a traumatic childhood. it It could be for many different reasons. But I'm curious, like to the person listening, there's a healing
Support Systems and Healing
00:49:39
Speaker
journey out there. There's hope on the other side. Scott, yours is more recent, Samira's still is pretty recent. What would you each, like Scott, we can finish your story at first say about your healing journey and what's been helpful to that person who's in that spot right now?
00:49:52
Speaker
I think having someone to talk to. So I would say you, of course, have been the biggest help in that. And then even outside of just you, friends and family that I've been able to talk to. And finally, share truly some of these stories of what I dealt with. Having the ability to have those discussions has been the most healing. So, I mean, yeah, I'm on medication for anxiety. I have been seeing therapists. That's all very helpful and Of course, that is something that is important and you should do, but I think having that person that you can talk to, that one person that I can go back to and just have this conversation and and really, I don't know, speak out what truly happened is the most powerful that I was able to experience. Yeah.
00:50:35
Speaker
similar to to you. For me, it was having Daniel initially to be able to say, you know, it's okay to not be okay. And showing me what life could be like as a man, looking at another man, leading with vulnerability, going, I can work through these things. But also, I was very, very fortunate in that I met my current fiance in the pandemic.
00:50:57
Speaker
And she, women I think also have such an important role to play in modern masculinity because you can either hold space for it or you can, to an earlier point I made, send it down a very different rabbit hole.
00:51:12
Speaker
She gave me space to express myself. She said, you're going through something traumatic. I totally understand as much as I can understand that this is not easy. Let me remind you, I don't think that this in any way you dealing with the anxiety of a divorce, the anxiety of dealing with lawyers and the fact that your savings are being depleted by fees and all these things.
00:51:35
Speaker
None of that for any second makes me think that you're not capable of being a partner, a future husband, a future father, any of that. So get all that nonsense out of your brain and just focus on healing yourself and focus on your journey. And having a partner like that, like I can't put a value on that. But I also say that knowing there's going to be people who don't have that. yeah And I think that's the challenge.
00:52:01
Speaker
is when you really feel like there isn't anyone in your circle. The way I had felt at that very moment where I was like, I gotta go through my phone book to see who I can talk to because no one immediately jumps to mind. And in that scenario, I think the first course of action would be try to seek professional help. yeah Because at least you have an outlet while you develop the relationships with the people around you. And I promise you, there will be people around you in your life that you will be able to have a conversation with. You just have to have to try.
00:52:30
Speaker
Yeah. And that part's uncomfortable. And if you're so uncomfortable with trying, start with a professional because at least that'll help show you how to have the conversation. And then you can start to integrate the people in your life that you're comfortable with to share with them. And if they don't reciprocate because there will be people who are super close to you and will show up at all your main events in your life all your wins and will show up when someone in your life passes away and you feel like they're super close but when you really try to have that conversation with you they're like nope can't do it it's okay too mm-hmm it just means that that connection is a different one
00:53:03
Speaker
yeah And there will I've made connections with men in my life now that I never in my life would have thought would be this close to me. Under no other circumstances would he and I be having these types of deep conversations. But our relationship is stronger than relationships I've had with people that have spanned two decades, three decades. And so don't be afraid, firstly, to start with a professional if you need to. I promise you it's not for crazy people. Just get that nonsense out of your head because that's what I thought.
00:53:31
Speaker
In the same way, you know, like when you hurt your arm, your knee, you go to a doctor, it's the same concept, right? The exact same concept. Yeah. And I think to the point about friends that you both made, there's like an intimacy that can come with friendship when you're willing
Male Friendships and Future Generations
00:53:46
Speaker
to be vulnerable. And we've noticed that too, I think.
00:53:49
Speaker
Since Scott hit that breaking point, he had no choice but to be vulnerable with his friends because truthfully, some of them were there that night. Yeah, some of them were there. And I mean, you could see it on me. There is no way that you could. He couldn't get through a conversation. Yeah. So we had no choice but to be vulnerable. But because of that, there's been so many gifts in the fact that your friendships deepened. Yes, you have me, but you can also have friends that you can call and talk to. Yeah, 100%. Now I have 10 people that I could easily pick up the phone and call. That point there is so important. It took me a long time to learn that my partner can't be everyone to me. Exactly. Yeah. And I put a lot on my partner being my romantic partner, my confidant, my best friend, my advisor, too much for any one person to hold that space for one person. Like it's just too much. Yeah.
00:54:39
Speaker
I would not be able to hold all of that for Mila. It just, I can't. and I can't expect her to do the same, which is why it's so important to have those relationships outside. Because otherwise, you're dumping everything on one person. There's no more room for the relationship to grow. You're just constantly dumping. So when you have those other relationships, and I highly encourage men in particular, go have other male friends. yeah You need that because you need to see how they've gone through their situations. You need to understand how they've resolved their past traumas, how they're working through things. And maybe they haven't, but you're doing it together. And that's real meaningful relationships. Yeah. I think male friendships can be so beautiful. And I know men maybe don't want to hear that, but they truly can be.
00:55:22
Speaker
And I think we think, oh, it's just about watching sports together. It's just, but every man, you know, is going through some thing in their life too. Right. Like and sometimes the sports are just an excuse to get together and it can result in those kinds of conversations or watch sports together. I've literally heard people say that golf was invented so that men can get on a pitch and just talk for it four or five hours. Yeah. That's the only reason why it was invented. Yeah. Because it's the only sport where you can actually just, as you're going to the next hole, talk to each other. Yeah, it's beautiful. Play play golf with a friend. Yeah. I think about one of our friends who loves golf. I'm taking it up. I i tried playing once. i can't I can't swing in golf club in my life depending on it. I always want to hold it either like a hockey stick or a baseball. Yeah. I can't do it.
00:56:07
Speaker
Yeah, I just think that one of our friends who loves golf is going to be like, Scott, come golfing with me now. You probably will. The other thing just before we wrap up that I've just been thinking about is if you are like a dad or a male figure in the child's life, the importance of being able to model that healthy masculinity. I think part of why I was able to handle Scott and actually above and beyond being a therapist when you had your tears is because my dad and my family a lot for the most part are very in tune with their emotions. And I've watched men cry in a healthy way. And I've been able to see men express tears in a way that has never made me doubt their masculinity and never made me think, oh, my dad's less of a man because I've seen him cry or be emotional things.
00:56:53
Speaker
it's been a gift to me, like as a daughter. Well, even to me, we've been together so long that I've definitely looked up to your family and your dad specifically in the way he is able to deal with his emotions. Yeah. But also just consider if you saw your dad express himself that way, when you met Scott and when you were looking for a partner, you're looking for a man who's comfortable in his skin, right? Yeah, some high-found Scott.
00:57:17
Speaker
I mean, we have had that we can have that conversation at length. But like I'm just thinking about it from the lens of you have three daughters, yeah you expressing your emotions and showing yourself and providing that model of what positive masculinity can look like. When they go out into the world and they meet their eventual partners, now they have a model to replicate. they go If you're not emotionally regulated, why would I want to be with someone like that?
00:57:45
Speaker
right And so like both for young boys and for young girls, there's such an importance on modeling what positive masculinity could look like because it affects them both in different ways. Absolutely. And I know that like seeing that from my dad and my family in general, feeling like they're allowed to cry, I've been able to encourage Scott in a different way, right? A completely different upbringing from you where boys don't cry, they don't have emotions, they're allowed to be angry, but that's it.
00:58:11
Speaker
You know, I was able to bottle it up. Yeah. I was able to question that for you and be the one who kind of pushes back. And I know for me, I've been able to mostly, except for my anxiety at times, you know, handle my own emotions because I learned how to cope with them at an early age. And so I speak a lot about that because I think that we have a tendency of talking about like all these negative messages that we've heard as kids.
00:58:37
Speaker
But we also have such a role as fathers or uncles or anyone pouring into a child's life to be that positive role model too. And I think that's where, like to your point earlier, we can break the cycle a lot easier. Absolutely. I wholeheartedly
Conclusion and Hope
00:58:52
Speaker
agree. If we model positive masculinity, it just creates a generation of healthy people, period. yeah right Really quickly, I did a talk at St. Michael's College in Toronto. That's ah an all-boys high school that has had its fair share of negative history, from hazing incidents that have turned criminal
00:59:13
Speaker
to boys taking their own lives. And they were asked, you know, what do you want to talk about for your grade 12 retreat before you go off to university and start this new chapter of your life? And they said, we want to talk about men's mental health because we don't know how to deal with it and we don't know how to support our friends. And I just thought to myself, and all the time, sometimes I get cynical about where we're headed. I think back to that and go, the next generation is aware enough that they're even having this conversation. When I was in high school, I didn't even know the words mental health existed. Yeah, exactly. So that's like my little positive undertone that I'm constantly thinking of every time I'm in the space and working in some way.
00:59:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's good to maybe leave on that note like there is hope and for anyone in it I mean both of you spoke about your events that are quite recent like in the last you know, five ten years and yet there's hope right like you were both in that point where it felt like I don't know if I can move forward my whole life feels black and gray and now you're out here Samira talking about men's mental health like being such an incredible voice and Scott, you're being willing to share your story on such a public podcast as well. And I think that's so powerful. And I know that there's men listening who are going to find that really powerful and the reminder for themselves. And I even say this as a therapist, that like hope is like a therapeutic treatment, right? just There is hope. There is hope and clinging to that hope. Like we were talking to one of your friends and Scott shared a story and it was like, he said, that strand of hope that you've just given me, Scott, that's going to get me through this week. It's beautiful.
01:00:40
Speaker
And so I think let's leave it there. There's hope. There's always hope. well Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you. This was wonderful. It's nice to be on the other side. of There are moments where I want to start asking you questions. Yeah, I can't see it. You're used to interviewing. But honestly, this was fantastic. I think the work that the two of you are doing is so important. And it feels such a... The space is so big.
01:01:02
Speaker
And there's so many voices already in it, but your voices are important in pushing these conversations forward. So thank you for even giving me the space to have this conversation further. And I sincerely hope that if anyone listening, watching this hears this conversation, it encourages them to go out and either seek help or work with someone in their life who's currently struggling to say, hey, maybe you should do X. So thank you. I appreciate both of you for this. Yeah, you're welcome.
01:01:33
Speaker
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We are glad that you are here. If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review. Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all. A five star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there. Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.