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Secret Identities
322 Plays2 years ago
Shortly after his last appearance, Digging For Kryptonite's Anthony Desiato is back. But this time, we're not talking a movie. Instead, in this special topic episode, we're going to talk about the trope of secret identities—do they still work, are they necessary, what purpose do they serve, and what are some good and bad examples?
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Transcript
Welcome Back and Secret Identities Intro
00:00:14
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles podcast. I'm your host, Perry Constantine. And in a quick turnaround, because we just had you on a few episodes ago, Anthony Deziato's back. Anthony, how are you doing today? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me back. I appreciate it. Well, thanks for coming back, because you were kind of the impetus for this episode to begin with, because I've been thinking about doing this episode for a while. And listening to you talk about secret identity stuff over on Digging for Kryptonite,
00:00:43
Speaker
It made me realize, like, oh, yeah, I've been wanting to do an episode about that. And I just hadn't thought about who I should ask to do it. And that kind of hit me, because you had mentioned, like, I think I might want to do an episode on secret identity. So I'm like, OK, that's interesting. I think I'm going to talk to him about it now. Oh, cool. I'm glad it worked out. It's definitely something that, like you said, I've talked about on my show, and I've given thought to and will likely cover even more so down the line, specifically with respect to Superman, because
Are Secret Identities Outdated?
00:01:12
Speaker
Yeah, it just seems like there's been this shift. I know, you know, we'll talk about it, but it just feels like there's been this shift, this move away from from the secret identity trope. And I don't quite know how I feel about it. I mean, I guess I have my gut reaction to it. But part of me wonders, is it a sign of my age or or are there some some do I have some valid criticisms, I guess, to to this trend that we've been seeing? So I'm curious to to compare notes on this.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, I think we're coming at this from a very similar starting point because I think my kind of base start from this is basically it really depends on what character you're talking about. And we'll dig into that a little bit more because I think there are characters where
00:01:55
Speaker
the secret identities don't really work. They're just giving it to them because it's the trope. And there are other cases where it really works very well with the characters. But we'll dig into that more. But before we start with that, we like asking especially returning guests, because you've already introduced yourself to everybody, what kind of stuff are you
Current Interests and Parenting Tales
00:02:15
Speaker
into now? What's kind of getting your goat right now at the moment?
00:02:20
Speaker
Oh, boy. I guess the last time you asked me it was Cobra Kai. I'll be honest. I have been slammed between work and the podcasting that most of what I've been consuming has been for one of my various podcasts. So it's been a lot of Superman and a lot of Power Rangers. I recently saw the Black Adam movie. Yeah, I can't say I've really had much time for for much in the way of binges, per se, although my wife and I are winding down on
00:02:46
Speaker
the current season of Handmaid's Tale and the final season of Walking Dead. So we are making our way through both of those and enjoying them. It's just harder and harder to carve out the time as I know you can identify and you have multiple children. I know I'm preaching to the choir and I have it easy compared to you on that one. So yeah, I wish I had a better answer. But those those two shows in particular we've been we've been watching recently.
00:03:12
Speaker
But those, yeah, both of the two have decided to, because Philip, he's the youngest one. He had been sleeping through the night briefly and kind of stopped now. So like now he's waking up in the night and he either wants to come into bed and cuddle or Helena, she wakes up and she wants to come into bed and cuddle or something like. So like we've actually had nights where my wife is sleeping in my daughter's bed and then my son wakes up and I take him into our bed. Gotcha. Yeah. So it's one thing I've found is
00:03:42
Speaker
You're lucky when you settle into a routine, as hard fought a battle as that would be, but you get into the routine, but then it only lasts so long, and then there's some new wrinkle in it, so you have to be very adaptable.
Comixology and Amazon Critique
00:03:55
Speaker
Although talking about the Power Rangers stuff, because I had used Comixology Unlimited to check out the the Boom Studio stuff and listen to your podcast actually made me remember that. Oh, yeah, I've got these things. I'm paying for this subscription. I should probably actually sit down and read them. So I've gone through and I've read up through the all of the shattered grid stuff. So I went through and read those. And those are those are a fun read. Oh, good.
00:04:20
Speaker
Yeah, it's been it's been a revelation. I'm so late to the game on those Power Rangers comics, but I'm I'm through the first two years now of the Boom Studio series. So my next big batch of reading will be Shattered Grid. So I'm excited to get into that. But yeah, that's terrific. I too have been using Comixology Unlimited for that. And yeah, happy with it so far. Yes. I know. I know there's been a lot of you know, there's been a lot of talk about
00:04:45
Speaker
what Amazon did to Comixology. But for my limited use of it, I mean, I use the DC app far more for digital reading. And of course, that's undergone a big change recently as well. But so I don't I don't do a ton of Comixology. But what I have done, you know, the changes haven't, you know, hindered my experience the way I know it has for others. Yeah, I've had a lot of issues.
00:05:09
Speaker
with it because I use Comixology all the time and the old the main issues I have are with the store itself because the the old Comixology store was just a thing of beauty it works so well it was everything was so easy to find nicely organized and they've made some changes to make it a little bit better but it's just I'm like you guys are still fixing what you broke and you still haven't fixed it completely
00:05:34
Speaker
Um, but anyway, like we were saying, uh, today we are talking about the, the secret identity trope in, uh, in superheroes.
Origins and Evolution of Secret Identities
00:05:42
Speaker
And it's, it's been with superheroes like since the start, the whole like concept actually comes from like the, the proto superhero, the, the Scarlett Pimpernel was the first character in literature that actually used that kind of trope. And then it was carried over into.
00:05:56
Speaker
A lot of the pulp heroes, like the Shadow, had used it. And then, of course, when Superman and Batman came out, they also used it too. And it had been a big thing in superhero comics for basically decades. I can't think of, I don't think, the first character I can think of that really stopped using the, or never really had a secret identity to begin with was probably the Fantastic Four. I'm not sure if you know of any that I'm not thinking of.
00:06:27
Speaker
None that immediately come to mind, and certainly if they weren't the first, they were at a very, very early example. Yeah. And then Marvel had some characters that used it and then didn't use it. Hulk didn't really have much of a secret identity, except those times when Bruce Banner was kind of like hiding out. And then when the 80s rolled around, I remember the big thing was Frank Miller took away Daredevil's secret identity.
00:06:55
Speaker
And that was a huge storyline when he did that in the born again story.
Do Secret Identities Add Character Complexity?
00:07:00
Speaker
But before you dive into any specific examples, what's kind of like your overall take on the on the secret identity concept? So overall, you know, I'm always hesitant to make any any sweeping blanket statements, right? So I think, you know, to touch on something you had said before, I think, you know, it it depends on what character and what medium, but
00:07:24
Speaker
Generally speaking, I do tend to like the secret identity. And you know, like I said earlier, I don't know if this is just because this is what I grew up with and I'm so used to it, but it's been very interesting in recent years. Uh, you know, I guess first with the Marvel movies, you know, really seeing this big move away from it and, and recognizing after a while, like, Oh yeah, like the characters in these movies, they really don't have them. And then more recently.
00:07:50
Speaker
And again, I really was coming at this initially from the Superman lens, but seeing that play out in the comics, too. Yeah, I don't know. It's not necessarily like the hill I'm going to die on, but I do feel like there is a lot of value in the secret identity, even if it's not always always explored. You know, it's not it doesn't need to be the basis of every story or even any story, but I think it it can be mined.
00:08:20
Speaker
And I feel like, sometimes I feel like we lose more than we're gaining when we do that. Certainly that's what I felt when it happened to the pages of the Brian Michael Bendis Superman run. That was definitely my gut feeling on that. So yeah, I don't know. I guess overall I'm not really a fan of the shift that we're seeing. I'm willing to keep an open mind and maybe there's something about it that I'm missing or something else that's going on
00:08:48
Speaker
In our culture, in our media, that makes an argument for this shift away from it. I really don't know. I was really been thinking about this in advance of our recording. And it's just like, I don't know. I don't really know what to make of it other than, yeah, my heart is with the secret identity, ultimately. What about you? You know what? Yeah, I noticed it with the Marvel movies. You're right. That was kind of like the big time we saw it.
00:09:14
Speaker
happening a lot in superhero movies. But I think the shift, maybe I think Buffy actually had a hand in it, because if you think about Buffy, she kind of had a secret identity, but not really, right? Because she didn't have like a costume identity, she didn't wear a mask or anything. And like we find out in the
00:09:36
Speaker
the prom episode of season three, you know, everybody knew that she was up to something and she was always, cause she had saved like half the school, like a dozen times. So, so, and they had given her, you know, the award of class protector. So even if they didn't really know what it was she was doing, they knew she was up to something and it was just kind of like this open secret in the school. And, and then when we had some of these other movies coming out, like, um,
00:10:02
Speaker
I know it's like in the X-Men movies, they almost never refer to each other by code names, right? Because the X-Men 2 characters that kind of had secret identities in the comics, but was never much of a big focus because mostly they only hang out with each other. So it was never really kind of a big thing. And then you see them in the movies and everybody calls Storm by her code name, but everybody else, they just call them by their real names. So that was kind of a big shift I noticed too. And then when we get to the MCU,
00:10:32
Speaker
you get that scene at the end where Tony's going to give the press conference and he's got the whole cover story Shields given him where Iron Man's his bodyguard, which is right out of the comics.
Iron Man vs. Batman: Public vs. Private Personas
00:10:45
Speaker
And then he just says, you know what, he puts the card down and he's like, I am Iron Man. And I remember thinking at the time, what was your impression when you saw that scene for the first time?
00:11:00
Speaker
Actually, let me I would want to piggyback on something else they said because I love that you brought up Buffy and I'll circle back to that Iron Man moment. I love that you brought up Buffy. I wasn't even thinking about that. But that is a that makes total sense because I was thinking about the Arrowverse shows in particular, and they're very Buffy esque in that in in that team or the Scooby gang. Right. Yeah. We'll call it that. And so and within those shows is a similar type of thing where to
00:11:30
Speaker
the public at large, right? In Central City, people don't know that Barry Allen is the Flash, but virtually every cast member on the show knows that Barry Allen is the Flash because they're all part of this team. And the Buffy aspect also made me think of this, too, is that, yeah, it also depends how we're defining secret identity, because, look, as you know from listening to my show, my heart is always with Smallville.
00:11:54
Speaker
And in that 10 year journey, except in those very final seasons when he was known as the blur, right? Or the red, blue blur first and then the blur. But for the vast majority of that series, it wasn't that Clark had a secret identity per se, but he had his alien origin and his powers that he hid from everyone. And so, you know, I guess I do still equate that to a secret identity in a sense. And I think that's probably part of the reason why
00:12:21
Speaker
I do hold on to that, especially when we talk about a Superman and we talk about a Superman revealing his identity because that Smallville series was so, so formative for me as a Superman fan. And it's 10 years of him hiding this part of himself because he wasn't sure how he was going to make his way through the world. He wants to protect the people around. And so it's just such an ingrained part of that character, at least.
00:12:50
Speaker
you know, when we move forward and it's it's truly the Clark Kent disguise or however you want to define that. But like that totally tracks for me. And so when we move away from that, that's really where I bump up against it in that respect. And you know. And then as far as Iron Man, I mean, I like I was totally on board with that moment and I remain on board at that moment. Now, in fairness, I am not nor have I ever been a huge Marvel guy. I love Spider-Man. I love Daredevil.
00:13:19
Speaker
I enjoy a lot of the other characters, but my heart's ultimately with DC. And on the Marvel side, again, not a huge Iron Man fan. I mean, it's really the movies that make a lot of the masses. The movies are what made me a fan. So I didn't go into that with any preconceived notions, any expectations. It wasn't the sort of thing where I was like, oh, they have to line up to the comics. I really, not to be flip, but I didn't really care. I just wanted to enjoy the movie. And I did. And I felt like that was such a fun ending because that
00:13:48
Speaker
You know, that upends your expectation. It's, you know, you think they're going to go along with the comic book explanation of the secret identity and they don't. And it's this version of the character that Robert Downey Jr. and John Favreau crafted. It just felt like it felt totally in character based on what we had seen. So I love that. But do I necessarily think that that needs to be, you know, the template for all of them? No, not necessarily. But in that context and that film for that character, I did like that.
00:14:15
Speaker
I think you're hitting on something that I keep coming back to as well because Iron Man's secret identity, it was always one of those things. Captain America is the same way too. Whenever they had stories with their secret identities in the comics, it always felt very forced. Whenever they were trying to do the secret identities, it always felt like, okay, we know this is the superhero trope and we're trying to make this work.
00:14:38
Speaker
it never really felt like it fit with those characters. And I think the comics eventually realized this because even before the MCU, they had outed Tony and Steve in the comics. Actually, I think the Ultimate Comics were kind of the template for this because Tony Stark in the Ultimate Comics had a public identity. And then in the regular universe comics, he had revealed his identity and then he had
00:15:06
Speaker
They'd use some like sci-fi, satellite, mind control thing to make people forget type of thing. And then briefly he was back in the closet. And then after the movie came out, then they came out with it again. I think it was around the time Civil War came out. That's when he outed himself
Spider-Man's Secret Identity and Story Depth
00:15:20
Speaker
again. And he's been out ever since. And Captain America, it was actually during, after 9-11, there was a really good run by John A. Reber. And he had this, you know, this war on terror inspired story where
00:15:37
Speaker
Captain America, you know, kills this terrorist. And then he says, America didn't kill this man. He takes off his mask and he says, I did. He reveals that he's Steve Rogers. Because he didn't want him, his America to be associated with what he had done. And I'm not, I'm shortchanging the story a lot. It's very, it's a really, it's a surprisingly nuanced portrayal of the war on terror in a post 9-11 world when a lot of people weren't looking for nuance.
00:16:03
Speaker
I actually read that. So despite not being a huge Marvel guy, I did read that. This was a period of time I had just started working at my local comic shop and I was just I was sort of expanding my horizons as a as a comics reader. And I guess I maybe I read an interview or watched or read a preview or I guess I knew I got it from the from the start. And I do remember that arc. It's been crazy to think decades now since I read it.
00:16:29
Speaker
long overdue for a reread and you've kind of inspired me so maybe I'll pull that up and give it a read because I do remember I definitely remember reading it and enjoying it at the time so I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah it holds up really good. I had reread it I think maybe last year or a year before and it still holds up pretty well and I remember at the time being like really kind of
00:16:50
Speaker
surprise at how nuanced it was because it was a it was a nice contrast because he had they had these like kind
Superman's Identity in Modern Narratives
00:16:56
Speaker
of propaganda style covers if you remember at the time and then you had this this the inside it was very much nuanced and complex and so it was a nice nice way to kind of like it was this nice kind of bait and switch I really kind of respected what they had done with that but it and so when they did this in the movies like you said I agree like Tony Stark is a
00:17:16
Speaker
First off, he's a celebrity in his own right. So Tony Stark is not trying to, he doesn't get out of the Iron Man suit and then go off and try to be anonymous in his day-to-day life. And he's such an egomaniac that I can't imagine him not wanting everybody to know about what he's doing as Iron Man. Yes. Yeah, that's the thing. That makes sense. And we're getting at this idea, again,
00:17:47
Speaker
preliminary question of how are we defining secret identity? But also, yeah, what purpose does the secret identity serve? Because it will, in some cases, it might not serve one at all. Like maybe in the Tony Stark example, that's why we don't need one. So yeah, I mean, I think that's, you know, how much time are we spending with the character in their civilian identity? You know, what, would it make a difference if they were known versus not known? I mean, in the case of like a Tony Stark and the lifestyle he leads where he's a celebrity already,
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah, probably not that much of a difference. So yeah, I mean, I think there are a few things at play for sure.
Metaphorical Value of Secret Identities
00:18:25
Speaker
Now, I want to actually compare that to Bruce Wayne because we had very similar character types, billionaire playboy types. So he's already a celebrity in his own right in his civilian life. But with Batman, I think it's a case where the secret identity definitely adds something to the character.
00:18:44
Speaker
Yes. And because and look, again, I'm basing my assessment of Iron Man really on what I've seen on screen. So, you know, again, I haven't read the comics to the extent that I would really be able to speak knowledgeably. But from the sense that I have of Tony Stark, it's not his Tony Stark persona is not an act like Bruce Wayne. It is. And he needs that act so that he would not be suspected of being Batman. Well, and that's another thing, too, right?
00:19:12
Speaker
a character like Iron Man who is sanctioned and allowed to operate the way he does versus the vigilante Batman. Of course, that's the extent to which Batman is truly an outlaw who's hunted, that varies. I remember the Adam West movie when they said like, oh, no, Batman and Robin are fully deputized because we can't let kids know that vigilantism is OK.
00:19:35
Speaker
Exactly. And, you know, when you get to the point where, you know, he's on the Justice League, it's kind of hard to go with that. But but, you know, at the most basic fundamental level, right, he is operating outside the law and he wants to be able to do that freely. And Bruce Wayne is really not who he is. That public persona, at least, is not who he is. You know, Bruce in the cave with the cowl down that I think that's his truest, his truest self. But
00:20:00
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, I think you can. It is interesting to really start to unpack this because I think, yeah, you really can draw some clear distinctions where a secret identity adds something to the character, as you can tell, versus an instance where maybe it doesn't like it's just sort of there and doesn't really serve as much of a purpose. And you get more of a pop out of that I am Iron Man moment like you get at the end of the movie.
00:20:25
Speaker
What you know of Iron Man from the movies, very much basically to summarize it, he is pretty much the same as he is in the comics and the movies. The only difference is he's more snarky in the movies. That's basically the main difference. But like the arrogance, the hyper intelligence, he's the smartest guy in the room and he knows it and he's gonna make sure you know it. All of that comes from the comics as well. They just kind of have a different focus because you got Robert Downey Jr. playing him and you're gonna let
00:20:53
Speaker
downy do his downy thing. But yeah, I think that with Batman, and this gets into something else I want to talk about too, is just the fact that how much the secret identity reflects that character. And you said it perfectly, like when Bruce is in the cave with the cow down at the back computer, that is who he is. That's him and his element.
00:21:16
Speaker
when he goes out and he does his Bruce Wayne thing, that is the real mask. And that's, that's a mask. That's an act he's putting on for everybody. And part of that is to preserve the secret identity. But part of it is also just to, for his own benefit, because he's kind of masking his own childhood trauma in that way too. Yeah. No, that's, I mean, that's a great point. Um, you watch the Harley Quinn,
00:21:40
Speaker
cartoon. Oh, God. Yes. Yes, I love it. I know what you're talking about. The walkthrough Bruce Wayne's mind. Such an amazing episode recently completed third season. It's such a great episode. And yeah, you really see just how fractured, how broken he is. It's such a great episode. But yeah, so, you know, I think that's another great example. I mean, I don't want to jump ahead. I'm sure we'll spend time on Spider-Man. But just another example where so much of of what's baked into the DNA of that character and the types of stories that are
00:22:11
Speaker
typically told and told well with the character are you know reflect how hard it is to be spider-man and in particular to be Parker and to and to try to balance those two so You know again I think like spider-man is another good example of an instance where you get a lot of value out of the secret identity and it serves a very specific purpose and you know in all of these cases I can definitely appreciate the
00:22:38
Speaker
the desire on the part of creators and fans to experience, well, what would happen if everybody found out? Because then it opens up storytelling avenues. You can have conversations between characters speaking honestly in a way they never have. So I get that.
00:22:54
Speaker
And we've also seen plenty of instances where secret identities have been revealed and then and then undone. Yeah. So you can go back and forth. You know, you can also find other ways, you know, a temporary reveal that's that's, you know, planned to be undone, you know, even within the confines of that specific story. You know, there's so many different ways to play it. I guess big picture what I've been wrestling with a little bit and maybe you two and why we're doing this episode is just
00:23:21
Speaker
It just feels like there's been more of a shift recently, really away from it, not just because, again, we've had instances where an identity is revealed. It's later undone. But it just it feels like it's more of a more of a move now. Well, I'm glad you mentioned Spider-Man because you're actually reading my mind. He was the next guy I want to I want to go to, because I think Spider-Man's secret identity serves so many purposes on so many different levels for that character. I mean, he's got the I mean, obviously, there's the whole
00:23:51
Speaker
There's the whole idea of balancing his superhero life with his real life. And that whole aspect of like, oh, is he going to be able to get to his date on time? Is he going to be able to get to class on time? And that whole aspect is fun. One of my favorite moments in the Spider-Man movies was the opening of Amazing Spider-Man 2, because we see him trying to swing out and get to the graduation. And then he ends up getting involved in this
00:24:18
Speaker
in this battle with Russian mobsters and all that while he's trying to juggle being on the phone at the same time. And that's just like perfect Spider-Man. That's like a perfect, a quintessential Spider-Man scene. And that's one thing I really like about that is it shows us those difficulties about, because, you know, in a far less literal way, we are balancing different aspects of our identities in our daily lives. And that gives us a way to represent it in stories.
00:24:48
Speaker
Yeah, you know, you're you're right. There is that aspect. I mean, definitely with Spider-Man, I agree wholeheartedly and about that sequence in particular. I'm a defender of those of those two movies. Oh, yes. They're not at the top of my list, but they are far better than they get credit for. And I talk about director's cuts. I really would love to one day get to see.
00:25:10
Speaker
the full versions of those two movies or at least proper deleted scenes. Anyway, yeah, it's separate. We did we did two episodes on them, so you should go back and listen to those, because we had a lot of good things to say about them. Good. No, I will. And I'm glad to hear that. And I. Well, that's all right. I'm going to keep us on this. But I'm just saying there's no way it was cool to see a lot of people voice support for those movies and Andrew Garfield.
00:25:34
Speaker
At least there's some love out there. But but no, you hit on something even more human and fundamental. That's that's a great argument for secret identities, at least, you know, again, maybe not necessarily for every character, but generally speaking, because it's true. You know, we all wear different hats and we, you know, like I like to think for myself, I don't I genuinely don't think I behave much differently regardless of who I'm interacting with in the family life.
00:26:00
Speaker
this, you know, doing these podcasts at work. But, you know, I'm sure there's some shift. We, you know, we all we all do something and right. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that does tap into something that is very fundamental and relatable because we don't lead these perfectly unified lives where we just are.
Team Dynamics and Secret Identities in TV Shows
00:26:18
Speaker
We are in every aspect of our life. Hopefully, to some extent or another, you know, is not compartmentalized. Right. Hopefully, you're not completely changing in a different person.
00:26:29
Speaker
Exactly. But I think just as that metaphor for that daily that daily struggle or that daily balance that everyone has to maintain, I think that there's something to that. Well, I mean, also, too, when it when it comes to things like and I think this is I think I've noticed there's there are a lot of LGBTQ comic book fans. And I think the secret I and I'm not you know, maybe I'm speaking on turn here by and I'm just making assumptions. But I think the whole double identity thing
00:26:56
Speaker
really speaks to a lot of people who had to live a life in the closet. So the whole idea of like, oh, do I tell Aunt May that I'm Spider-Man? What will she think of me? Do I tell this person I like that I'm Spider-Man? What will they think of me? I think there's probably, at least from what I know from experiences that people in that community have told me about, very similar type of things they struggle with. So I'm glad you brought that up as well.
00:27:25
Speaker
I'm not part of that community either. So it's like I certainly don't want to speak for anyone. But, you know, you mentioned the discussion that I had on my podcast about this. And so this is a perfect segue because I guess what I was voicing on that show is, especially, again, through the Superman lens, I think it was in the context of Superman revealing his identity in the pages of the Bendis run, as well as spoiler alert for the series finale of Supergirl.
00:27:55
Speaker
but Cara Danvers revealing that she is Supergirl on national television in the final moment of the show. And I feel like in both instances, whether explicitly or implicitly, the idea behind it, or at least my takeaway, was that they were now their full selves because they were speaking their truth. And it seemed like that was being used as sort of a metaphor for coming out. And I guess what I struggle with is
00:28:24
Speaker
And I said this on my show and I'll say it again now, I'm a thousand percent for everyone being their authentic selves and being who they are and speaking their truth. Absolutely. I guess I just I don't know if that's the right metaphor in the in the pages of the comics or on screen. I just I think the you know, the way you presented it makes more sense. And I did have one of my one of my audience members who who is a part of that community.
00:28:50
Speaker
uh, you know, tweeted at me after that episode and said that they don't, they don't like it was done, you know, in those instances. So, uh, yeah, I just, I don't know. I think that's one of the things that I sort of, I sort of bristle up against. And that's where I feel like it's really become this movement because now if the idea is having a secret identity is the equivalent of being
00:29:16
Speaker
closeted for example and then feeling your secret identity is the way that you are you know achieving your your true self sort of thing again i just i don't know that that's the right metaphor i don't know if if that's what the community is even looking for i think it's limiting i just like that's where i'm i'm really uh i just i don't know it just doesn't something's not clicking for me okay yeah i think you made some really good points there and yeah that's the thing with
00:29:46
Speaker
Because I think that metaphor does work with some things, but I think what people are forgetting about metaphors is that they're supposed to work in specific incidences. They're not supposed to be catch-alls for everything. Like the whole idea of, you know, I'm an X-Men guy going back way back. So like the metaphor of the X-Men has always been about
00:30:13
Speaker
you know, well, they represent marginalized communities, whether it's the Civil Rights Movement, whether it's the LGBTQ community, and that whole idea. But see, that idea only goes so far, because then you also have the problem of, and, you know, my former co-host, Derek, before he passed away, he pointed this out, when we talked about the first X-Men movie,
00:30:33
Speaker
because he was a black man, and he said, look, I'm a black man. When you see me, you see a black man. When you look at Cyclops, you see a guy with red sunglasses. You don't necessarily see a mutant right there. And the metaphor has limits, right? It can't be a catch-all all the time in all instances. There's also the issue of
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, do you want your child being taught by a mutant? Do you want your child being taught by someone who's gay or lesbian or bi or trans? But an LGBTQ teacher doesn't shoot beat lasers out of their eyes. So that metaphor has limits. And I think that listener you mentioned is making a good point that
00:31:22
Speaker
I can understand where this is coming from and it's coming from a good place, but it doesn't have, there are other reasons to have the secret identity than just, you know, hiding your true self. Yeah, for sure. Now I'll, this is the attorney in me, I'll argue against myself for a moment. I am always curious to try to understand the other side, not, not even necessarily with respect to that, that, that metaphor, but just with the secret identity generally and
00:31:49
Speaker
You know, I'm in my mid 30. I'm just celebrating my 30th anniversary as a Superman fan with the death of Superman. And, you know, I don't know. I wonder if, you know, I don't, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the youth. You know, as my son gets older, you know, he's three now, as he gets older, I'll be curious to see how he receives some of this and what he thinks about it. Cause I, you know, I don't know. I mean, I grew up with it. It makes sense to me. I don't know if.
00:32:17
Speaker
I mean, I wonder if younger audiences think that the secret identity makes sense if they think necessary. I really don't know. It's hard to say. I mean, I also wonder, too, is
00:32:32
Speaker
I don't know. I guess there are a few different angles to this. One is we've had the secret identity so long, so maybe this feels new and fresh to sort of move away with something a little different. You know, is there a feeling on the part of content creators and our audiences that the secret identities just don't make as much sense today anymore, especially with, I mean, the technology that we have more than anything, right? The idea that someone could
00:32:58
Speaker
You know, I mean, look, the glasses always require a suspension of disbelief that we've seen formances and things like that that show, you know, what else could sort of go into to crafting that ruse. But but, you know, but even putting that aside, like with all of the everyone's walking around with a camera with all the surveillance that's out there. I don't know. Is it is it's kind of this quaint thing that just doesn't really make as much sense now? I mean, I don't know. I wonder if that's part of what's fueling it and if that's valid or not. I don't know.
00:33:27
Speaker
No, I think that's a good question. I think that's that's a really good point, because when I think about and, you know, Ben is kind of like the impetus for this conversation from what you talked about with his Superman run, because he's done this now three times, right? He did it in an Ultimate Spider-Man, and it wasn't so much a public outing, although once he had killed off Peter Parker, that had become completely public.
00:33:49
Speaker
But a lot of people along the way had found out that Peter Parker was Spider-Man. And you had this whole thing where, you know, Nick Fury's the head of S.H.I.E.L.D. And he's like, you know, I'm the fucking director of S.H.I.E.L.D. Of course I know who you are, 16-year-old superhero. And that made sense. And then when it came to Daredevil, again, that was an amazing story. The whole Out storyline and everything that went along with it. And that really suited that character very well because
00:34:15
Speaker
This is a character who has been pretty sloppy with his secret identity. So it made sense to reveal it and to then deal with what happens once that identity is out there. And I admit the first time I heard about that story, I was kind of skeptical. I was like, wait, didn't Frank Miller already do this? Why are we doing it again? But Bendis took it to new levels that I didn't even think about at the time.
00:34:40
Speaker
But then we went to Superman. And I felt like when he did it with Superman, it just didn't feel right. I can understand it with Ultimate Spider-Man because, yeah, he's a 16-year-old kid dressing up as a superhero. And this is set in the early 2000s. This is not set in the 1960s. So obviously, there's more surveillance. Obviously, the suspension of disbelief is a little bit harder to grasp when you've got a 16-year-old kid.
00:35:09
Speaker
being able to outwit everybody. So there's an element of that. So yeah, it makes sense that people would find out who he really is. Same thing with Daredevil. That totally makes sense for that character and the world that he inhabits. But with Superman, I know I'm preaching the choir here, but I don't know if maybe you could see what are the benefits of Superman revealing his secret identity? Because for me, the way I've always looked at the
00:35:38
Speaker
And you're right, the secret identity, it can be kind of quaint, and especially when you look at some of the older versions, like the, again, the Adam West Batman show, there's no differentiation between the way Adam West plays Bruce Wayne and the way he plays Batman. They're the exact same guy. Same thing with Burt Ward and Robin. No differentiation whatsoever. But you watch something like Christopher Reeve, and you see how much of a transformation he undergoes, or Brandon Routh,
00:36:07
Speaker
In the brief moments we see him in Clark Kent and Superman Returns or even to a lesser extent Tyler Hoechlin on Superman and Lois like he's He's playing there's not much of a differentiation, but he's playing you know a much more exuberant Kind of guy. He seems like he's a more comfortable as opposed to being an upright Superman Dean came to he had that same thing where he was much more relaxed and much more comfortable where Superman he was always very stiff and so I always looked at Clark Kent as a
00:36:35
Speaker
I mean a few different things. One, it protects your loved ones and your family, which totally makes sense for this character. But two, it's also the fact that this is kind of like his personal fortress of solitude that he carries with him. It's his way to not be always, you know, everybody coming up to him on the street and a way for him to just kind of relax and live a normal life.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, you are preaching the choir. I'm right there with you on all of this. And, you know, as you know, I recently covered the period in Superman comics and the triangle era following the wedding or following the death of Superman leading up to and including the wedding. And within that was the death of Clark Kent storyline where his childhood friend Kenny Braverman became conduit and just found out a secret identity dismantled his life. And in one of the epilogue issues to that storyline,
00:37:27
Speaker
Clark finally reunites with Lois, who he thought had died. And they have this whole conversation where he's not really sure if he wants to go back to being Clark Kent or if he needs to go back to being Clark Kent. And then Lois creates this little test for him.
00:37:40
Speaker
where she has him go to get a cup of coffee as Clark and as Superman. And it's like as Superman, he just can't do it. Like all he wants to do is sit down and order a cup of coffee. And everyone is, they don't know what to make of him being there. They're a little bit scared. They're a little bit excited. And, you know, it was just like this perfect encapsulation of what Clark
00:38:00
Speaker
allows him to do and i feel like virtually every medium in some way shape or form has made the argument for that uh you know allville certainly and i remember in the final episodes of small we were lois and clark were engaged to be married and she felt like she couldn't go through with it because she would be holding him back he has this larger responsibility and there was all this talk about how you know he's not a god like he can't be 24 seven he needs i i think personal fortress of solitude is a beautiful way to put it
00:38:27
Speaker
Like, that's one of the things that Clark Kent allows him to allows him to live in the world and engage with the world and and be a reporter, which, again, you know, some some versions, that's a bigger part of who he is than others. But I don't version where he actually cares about being a journalist. So, yeah, there are there are so many arguments not to mention. I thought it just practically speaking, I thought it was ridiculous in the Bendis run where he reveals his identity and then continues on as a reporter.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah. And they talk about all the ways they fortified the daily planet. And it was just, I mean, I appreciate that he at least addressed it, right? That there were all these new security measures, but it was just, I thought, absolutely ridiculous. And the last thing I'll say on this rant, especially about symptoms.
00:39:13
Speaker
Another another way to sort of draw some lines here is in the context of the story, whose choice is the reveal? Because I'm again, I know, despite, again, not being a huge Marvel guy, I am a big Daredevil fan. And oh, my God, that I love that run of comics you're talking about with and this run and then into the Brubaker run as well.
00:39:36
Speaker
It's such a tremendous run. That's another one. I'm so overdue to reread and I want to because I just remember that so fondly. Did you read just a quick site? Did you read the wait stuff that came after that, too? It's on my shelf. Oh, you get because they did some fun things with the secret identity in there, too. It's nice.
00:39:54
Speaker
But, you know, they're like with the with the Bendis run on Daredevil in particular, you know, he was outed and he had to deal with the fallout of that. And he did for a really long time. And it drove like that's the thing. That was an instance where that secret identity reveal created such an engine that sustained that book for a long time. And there was so much to explore in the case of Superman. And I'm not saying it's because he made the choice himself, but he did. Right. He revealed himself to the world and
00:40:25
Speaker
What what I was what was kind of weird to me was both in the pages of the Bendis comics, like a lot of Bendis's final issues dealt with the Superman was kind of out dealing with otherworldly threats, if I'm remembering correctly. It's been a while now since I since I read up on that run. I mean, definitely in the immediate aftermath, like I said, you see him working at the planet and stuff like that. But then a lot of it kind of had him elsewhere. And then after Bendis leaves the books, we have Philip Kennedy Johnson come on board.
00:40:54
Speaker
Superman's off world is a war. Yeah. I'm so. I don't know. It's not necessarily against an argument against the secret identity reveal, but it's kind of interesting that it happens. And then we have all these stories where it's kind of irrelevant. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I found myself because I've just because I've reached up by the trades and I wait for them to come on sale and comics algae in D.C. is so slow to get stuff out and even slower to get stuff
00:41:21
Speaker
on sale unless it's Batman they put Batman stuff on sale constantly but when it comes to like Superman stuff like it takes forever for the stuff to come down like I've been waiting to read the the Warworld saga but it's still like even when it's on sale it's still like 10 bucks so and yeah that was something I was looking at it when I'm looking all the the what is this called the I don't even know what what era this is the new era is called that they're doing
00:41:50
Speaker
the post-Benda stuff, whatever it's called. But that whole era, when they're doing all these changes and stuff, I remember thinking, I'm like, okay, future state, I think it is, right? Yes. Okay. They've got all these changes coming out. I'm thinking like, I'm like, wait, so did they undo that? Do people still know he's Clark Kent? And I found myself really kind of confused by that. Even when I read
00:42:17
Speaker
Uh, Superman, the authority, that's like the only thing really that I've read from this new era so far. They didn't really touch on that very much at all that I can remember. And it just, but it seems like, and especially that whole idea of, okay, well, Clark, everybody knows Clark and his Superman. So now we have to fortify the daily planet to make sure the people here work here are safe while they're working here.
00:42:40
Speaker
And then Superman's going to go off world. I mean, it strikes me as being really irresponsible on Superman's part because part of the reason for that disguise is to protect the people around him. Exactly. And and again, you know, I don't know. You know, when Philip Kennedy Johnson took over action comics, maybe this was just like he just wanted to tell the story where Superman's an actress. I mean, part of me can't help but wonder. And I guess we'll have a better sense now. I mean, as we're recording this, I know Superman is is
00:43:10
Speaker
Earthbound again. I haven't read the stories yet. So I don't know what direction it's going to go in. But the cynical part of me is like, well, is this? I wonder if, as a creator, did he agree with the choice of the creator who preceded him? And if not, is that part of the reason why Superman is off world for so long? You specifically have a story where you don't have to necessarily deal with that. I mean, I just can't help but wonder.
00:43:35
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. When we talk about the importance of Clark Kent, and I probably won't, I don't want to turn this into this. You know, I think, you know, Clark Kent serves all the functions that we already talked about. Um, but also Clark, right? Is the answer to that question. Like, why would somebody with that level of power, truly God-like ability,
00:43:56
Speaker
just choose to use them the way he does to help. And it's like, well, our Ken is the answer when you know, Clark to borrow a line from for all seasons. It's like when you know, Clark, you know why this Superman could even exist the way he does. Now, in fairness, revealing the identity doesn't necessarily mean he's not Clark anymore. And again,
00:44:14
Speaker
You know, in Bendis' defense, it's like the idea was that he would be Clark and Superman, right? He's one person and he goes to the Daily Planet without his glasses. And then, you know, he puts on the cape and he saves people. So in fairness, I do appreciate that it wasn't just like, oh, we're a racing Clark. He's trying to live as both. But I don't know. It just I just felt so ridiculous to me. I could not get on board with that. Well, I think
00:44:41
Speaker
And I think Smallville did a really good job of this, where they show you why that normal life is so important to him. And I do have a lot of criticisms of Smallville over the years, especially in the later seasons. But I think one of the things that they established really well in those early seasons was the idea that he just wants to be a normal guy. He can do these things, but he doesn't want to be a god. He wants to just be like,
00:45:07
Speaker
He just wants to go out with Lana and play football and hang out with his friends. That's all he really wants to do. And I think that's one of the reasons why Smallville spoke to so many people of our generation was because we were in that exact same position at the time. Yes. And the last main point I guess I have about Smallville is
00:45:31
Speaker
It was interesting on that show because over the years, a lot of people on the show, you know, the cast, other characters in the main cast learned, you know, Clark secret. Yeah. And it was interesting because I felt like every time that happened, the dynamic became more interesting. There was more to explore there. It opened up all of these, you know, these new pockets.
00:45:56
Speaker
And I know I had mentioned the Arrowverse shows earlier. It was fascinating to me with the Arrowverse shows. And I don't know. Did you have you watched some or all of them? I've watched up to the current season of Flash. I saw Olive Arrow. I started the last season of Supergirl, but I haven't gotten very far in it. Gotcha. OK, we're kind of we're pretty similar. Fortunately, I gave up on except Superman and Lois, but I gave up on all the rest of them, but I made it through Crisis. Anyway, you know, it was fascinating to me on those shows how quickly
00:46:26
Speaker
the other characters learned the secret identity. And I don't know. I feel like I don't I mean, I'm curious to know what you felt, how you felt about this, especially having watched 10 years of small because on the one hand, I think initially I probably felt it was a little refreshing. You know, 10 years where this drove so much of the tension, you know, to see things move a lot faster. But I feel like with Arrow, with Flash, with Supergirl, I think those three in particular, we so quickly
00:46:57
Speaker
not to the point of everyone in the core cast knowing and being part of this team. And I feel like all the shows kind of suffered in some way or another from that. I think it was too much too fast. And it just it you do need that that tension to some extent. You're making you're making a really good point. And that's something I was I've been wanting to talk about on this, too, because I think with Smallville, they did it really. They were really smart early on.
00:47:24
Speaker
where they kept it secret, only Jonathan and Martha know. And then eventually, I think it was, was it season two or season three when they tell Pete? I think it was season two. It was two, yeah. And Pete finds out in season two. And you're right, because Pete felt so short-changed in that show. It felt like a lot of the stuff that could have been done for Pete was given over to Chloe. And I felt like she kind of sucked away a lot of potential for Pete as a best friend character.
00:47:54
Speaker
But once Pete knew, and Chloe didn't, that added a whole new dynamic, and that made the interactions that Pete had with Clark a lot more interesting. Now, I think as they got on, and I think this is where it comes in, that whole idea of balance. Because I think as they went on, and then just about everybody knew that Clark had superpowers and all this, that's when I think it started to suffer. Because then I'm starting to get to, especially because we're doing a proto Superman show, so it gets to the point where, okay,
00:48:22
Speaker
Clark Kent moves to Metropolis, and then all of a sudden there's this guy with superpowers flying around. And then doesn't everybody in Smallville remember all those things Clark Kent did? So that was just that kind of aspect. I felt like if you're going to have him become Superman and preserve the secret identity, it's going to be hard to make the whole world not know that Clark Kent is Superman.
00:48:46
Speaker
And then I think on the Arrow shows, again, Arrow did it good at first, right? Because Ollie was keeping it quiet. At first, there's just John. And then later on, I think Felicity was in season one. Later on, they bring in Felicity. But then when they get into the later seasons, then you have the whole team aspect of it. And everybody knows. And then it just becomes this kind of question of, what is this secret identity actually for? And it was the same problem with The Flash, because
00:49:15
Speaker
You know, basically that whole first season, the only person who doesn't know is Iris. Everybody else in his life knows about his double identity. So and there's not really a character reason for Barry to have the secret identity, not in the way like with Bruce, with Clark, with Spider-Man.
00:49:35
Speaker
there is a character-based reason why. Batman uses the Bruce Wayne mask to cover up his childhood trauma. Superman uses the Clark Kent disguise as a way to just kind of relax and be a normal guy. Peter Parker uses the Spider-Man identity as a way to mask his insecurities and also to kind of let his inner self come out because he's able to embrace like his sense of humor and all the stuff he'd be too afraid to say as Peter Parker, he can say as Spider-Man.
00:50:04
Speaker
all of those sort of very interesting character person. But Barry Allen's secret identity, Barry Allen and the Flash, and I'm not a huge Flash comics guy, so I don't know what it was like in the comics, but at least on the TV show, there's like no differentiation between Barry and the Flash. They're the same guy. Same thing with Ollie and the Green Arrow in that show. And even in the comics, basically Ollie went public fairly early on, I believe, too. So what's the purpose of that secret identity
00:50:33
Speaker
Everybody knows about it. So you're not using it to protect your loved ones and you're not using it to bring any drama with your loved ones All your loved ones are superheroes too, which another issue I had with the flash when everybody developed superpowers So yeah, then it becomes a question of why do we have the secret identity? Well as beautifully said and I you encapsulate it a lot and I think especially with Barry on the flash and
00:50:59
Speaker
You know, his civilian job is is this, you know, CSI. So it's like he's solving the same crimes in both of his eyes. And again, it's been a while since I watched, but I watched five and a half seasons of the show. And, you know, I don't think they ever really. I don't know that they ever really did much with Barry in that, you know, in that role. No, not really. You know, that it was really justified. So, no, I think that's a great point.
00:51:27
Speaker
I mean, maybe this is really just more of an Arrowverse problem and doesn't necessarily speak to the whole secret identity thing. But I think why I have such an issue with the teams on these shows is I was talking about this with my wife and I realized what it was that bothered me about it. And it's that. I guess going back to the small level of it all or something else that I've ever visited recently, Lois and Clark. You know, the the superhero side of all of these shows and the shows in particular.
00:51:57
Speaker
There's always going to be some variety in terms of how compelling or how high the quality is, right? You know, in terms of the plots, the villains, you know, our mileage will vary. Some things I'm not going to work other times, not so great. But the things, especially when I look at something like Smallville, what kept me there for 10 years, it wasn't the freak of the week that he happened to be fighting. It was those relationships and the human aspects of this story that were being told. And I feel like
00:52:24
Speaker
I was able to forgive a lot of those, you know, some of the Freak of the Week stories on Smallville, maybe even a lot of them were kind of on the lame side. But you always had these amazing moments between Clark and his parents and Clark and Lex. And it wasn't about the plot of the week. It was about these relationships. And I feel like on these Arrowverse shows in particular, they become so plot driven and so more about the villain of the week and the and the big bad of the season.
00:52:51
Speaker
Yes, there are, and I don't mean to shortchange them. I know there are still emotional arcs that the characters go through, but it just feels like it's all confined to Star Labs or the bunker or the DEO. And it just, I feel like it loses that human touch, that human aspect. And so, I mean, it does tie in with the secret identity because it's like when you don't have the secret identity,
00:53:17
Speaker
I don't know, maybe it's easier to fall into that trap of the team. That's just always working on the plot of the week. And I just you lose something. I think you're right. And I think, you know, when I think you made a good point when you going back to what you said, when you said that Buffy, you know, with the Scooby gang and all that, that really kind of influenced the Arrowverse, I think to a small to a lesser extent as well, because you especially in the later seasons where you did have kind of like that team thing going on there and.
00:53:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I think Buffy was such a huge influence on so many of these sci-fi fantasy shows now that they took probably a lot of the wrong lessons. And when you get to some of the later seasons of Buffy, you know, when her mom finds out, when basically everybody knows that she's the Slayer, you do lose a lot more of those interesting character dynamics that you had in the earlier seasons. And yeah, with
00:54:15
Speaker
I mean, the first season of Flash, I will defend to my grave because that was like one of my all-time favorite seasons of television. But they had, even with most of the main cast knowing, they still had a lot of really interesting character drama going on. And as they went on, a lot of that seemed to get lost or a lot of the characters who were the most interesting ended up leaving and being replaced with characters who were
00:54:41
Speaker
far, less interesting. And so now the cast has just gotten so, that's another thing. When these shows go on for so long, eventually the cast gets so big that when I'm watching like the last season of Flash, I was like, they're doing this romantic subplot between Chester and Allegro. And I'm just like, I really could not give less of a shit about either of these characters. I want to see more of Barry and Joe, because their relationship was like my favorite thing of that first season.
00:55:11
Speaker
or Barry and Thawne, because again, their relationship, their interaction. And God, Tom Cavanaugh, his performance in that first season was just so on point, where he so seamlessly transitions from being like this nice, caring mentor figure to this really sinister sociopath.
00:55:35
Speaker
And just seeing the way he was able to do that was, and I think Superman and Lois has done a really good job of kind of keeping that balance, because they're, you know, you've got the, you've got, you know, Lois and the boys know, and you've got Sam Lane, who knows, and now Lana knows, but they still managed to have a lot of interesting drama that happens in the town with these other characters.
Balancing Act in 'Superman & Lois'
00:55:57
Speaker
And not everybody in that group is a superhero, like you got with Flash and Supergirl later on.
00:56:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, Superman and Lois as it heads into its third and probably final season, I guess, the way things are going on the CW. Unfortunately, I think you're right. Yeah. But yeah, interesting with that, because now we are down to really just I think there's only one. I think it's only Kyle now who doesn't know the secret. So, yeah, be curious to see how that that goes. But I think you're right. The fact that they're not all superheroes.
00:56:33
Speaker
Um, helps a lot. You know, that's a really good point. And I'll be curious to track that, especially in comparison to the other Arrowverse shows, right? Because now we are getting to a point on Superman and Lois, where almost everyone in the cast knows, but not all superheroes. It's not a team. So, uh, you know, can we still preserve that, that human aspect and that interpersonal drama in a meaningful way and not fall into the traps that I think the other shows did. I do have faith in Superman and Lois. I think it's built.
00:57:03
Speaker
I did have a moment, you know, I don't want to. For anyone who's not current, I don't want to spoil the end of season two. But there was a point in in that season two finale where I was like, oh, are we like, are we going to a public reveal? It really kind of like that was on the table. And I turned to my wife, I said, oh, I really hope they don't do. I was like, they did this in the comics. I was like, I hated it. Like really? And thankfully we avoided that. You know,
00:57:31
Speaker
Again, for all the reasons that we've been talking about. But again, there has been this shift. And so it was actually, I mean, it didn't keep me up at night, but it wasn't because I was watching that. I was like, oh, I feel like this might be where we're headed. I'm glad. I'm glad that they didn't. Yeah. And I'm curious to see now where they go in the new season.
00:57:49
Speaker
So next thing I want to talk about is just some of the, what do you think are some good examples, some examples of like really good secret identities or like media that have handled the secret identity really well. And some maybe something that we haven't talked about and some that maybe don't handle it so well or some where the secret identity isn't really necessary.
00:58:10
Speaker
All right, so, again, I don't mean to just keep harping on Superman, but I read and watch and think and talk about a lot of Superman on top of mine. But so, I've been doing this George Reeves Adventures of Superman rewatch podcast called Another Exciting episode on the Adventures of Superman. That show's fascinating to me, because look, there's another example, not a ton of differentiation in the performance. But, and this kind of cuts both ways, because I've made this argument before,
00:58:38
Speaker
Both Clark and Superman interact with the same four people every episode. Perry, Lois, Jimmy, and Henderson. It's like, as Clark and as Superman, it's the same four people. I say to myself,
00:58:55
Speaker
Why even bother having the secret item? Same people. But now on the other hand, we get to a point in the series where Lois, you know, Lois suspects that Clark is Superman. And she tries to do all these things to try to figure it out. And I, I don't know. I thought that that kind of, that kind of played well. Cause if, again, we're not seeing a ton of differentiation in the performance, if no one can figure it out, it really gets kind of, but
00:59:21
Speaker
The fact that she suspects and it's just, it almost becomes like a gag, like a running gag between them. I don't know. That was an instance where I thought it was, uh, it was kind of cool. And look, you mentioned Christopher Reeve. I mean, that classic famous iconic moment from, uh, from the first movie where you see him, see him morph, uh, between the two characters. And it's a beautiful thing. It's probably, even though I don't care for like the overly bumpy. I'm with you. Yeah. But.
00:59:49
Speaker
It's probably the best argument for how could someone not realize that they're the same person. My late co-host called it the greatest special effect in that movie. That's a perfect way to put it. That's a perfect way to put it.
01:00:04
Speaker
I mean, I don't know, I guess moving out of the Superman realm, boy, I wish I had better things that like really jumped out. What stuff do you have on your list? Well, I am going to kind of Superman DC stuff, but I thought that the, and this is more of an example of where I thought it wasn't handled as well. Like in Man of Steel, I really liked that Lois figures out. I thought that was a really interesting twist on the relationship because it speaks to her being such a good journalist.
01:00:32
Speaker
Um, but I didn't like that his identity wasn't really a focus. Like Lex Luthor easily knows, um, you know, he easily knows that Bruce Wayne is Batman. The secret identities are, don't really serve any purpose in those movies. And I was really kind of disappointed in, in that aspect of it. But, um, I think as well, like, like we were saying, the Barry Allen stuff on the, on the flash, it's just hasn't been handled very well because there's no real purpose.
01:01:03
Speaker
I thought what they did in No Way Home with Spider-Man's identity was really good because they show you why the secret identity is so important to him. And I think, and they did that in the comics too, right? He reveals himself during Civil War and then like almost immediately after. The one thing he's been terrified of this entire time, all these years, and the one thing Tony Stark says, oh no, you don't have to worry, everything's gonna be fine.
01:01:31
Speaker
boom, right away, his aunt gets shocked. It was like the perfect way to show like, oh, yeah, the secret identity actually is important for a guy like Spider-Man. So I thought those those are some examples of and the movie No Way Home did such a good job where they show him like
01:01:45
Speaker
And again, in a very real world situation, what are you gonna do when all of a sudden you find out a superhero is attending your school? Well, the teachers make up a Spider-Man display and they tell him, you know, you can feel free to walk on the walls to class and everything. Everybody has their phones out taking videos and taking pictures of him. And it really showed you just, and the MCU, by virtue of what characters they've had access to for so long, it was these big name public superheroes who didn't really have
01:02:13
Speaker
secret identities are very marginal secret identities in the comics. So yeah, it made sense why Tony Stark or Steve Rogers would not have a secret identity. But when you get to Spider-Man, then you're like, oh, now I see why he has it. Daredevil 2, when they did the Netflix show and then also on She-Hulk, to a lesser extent too, it shows you what life is like when these people don't have secret identities and why it's so important for these more grounded street level heroes.
01:02:40
Speaker
No, those are all great examples. This the no way home bit is interesting. I feel like one of the criticisms and I can get past this, but it's it is a valid point, I guess. You know, that movie make is is in the MCU and, you know, make such a big deal about the secret identity. He's the virtually the only one. Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, I got now Daredevil or as of no way home, Daredevil, since I brought him in. But yeah, I don't know. Like it.
01:03:10
Speaker
that I felt like a little bit of a disconnect there that you know we're in this MCU populated by all these and again like we've been talking about they typically don't have these secret identities she's like one of the only ones
01:03:25
Speaker
Um, but at the same time, it's like, I don't, yeah, I don't know what the answer is. I think even, I guess that's actually interesting. Like I'll argue against myself here. It's like in, even in the context of this universe, right? Our rules apply, right? It's a pen. So even in a cinematic universe where 99% of the superheroes don't have a secret identity in the case of Peter Parker, it actually does make a lot of sense in part to his age. You know, I mean, that's probably one thing that we can sort of look at to differentiate from a lot of the other characters.
01:03:54
Speaker
his age, he's in school, you know, all of that. So yeah, no, I think that was definitely a good example of it being handled. Well, I won't, you know, you know, I could talk forever on the Snyder, but I don't disagree with you. You know, I don't disagree with you. I guess I wish that the secret identity had been a little bit.
01:04:12
Speaker
more of a thing there, right? But the way Lois was handled in Man of Steel, that's one of my favorite things. That's, you know, when we talk about the secret identity, and especially in the context of Superman, that's one of the hardest things for me to sort of get behind, the idea that he would pretend to be two separate people with, in particular, with someone he genuinely cares about. And yes, he's trying to turn all of that.
01:04:39
Speaker
You know, again, this is an instance where I can get behind the fact that he doesn't tell Lana that he's an alien with powers. There's a difference between that and literally making someone think that you are two separate people. So I love the way Man of Steel handled that and Smallville too, where Lois is just in on it from the beginning. I like that a lot better and I think certainly
01:05:04
Speaker
for a modern audience, I think that that, you know, I don't know, it just tracks better and it makes a lot more sense. You know, look, again, as far as an example where I don't think it works great, you know, Lois and Clark, the New Adventures of Super because and we can easily differentiate that from the George Reeves show because there, even though Clark and Superman were interacting with Lois and yeah, there was a little flirtatious energy. He wasn't having a romance with her either identity.
01:05:32
Speaker
Whereas in Lewis and Clark, you know, she's up close and personal with both of them. And really suspension of disbelief is one thing, but it's really pushing it, especially when from an acting standpoint, there's not a lot that's different. So, you know, that that one was a little tough as much as I have fondness for the show. That was a tough one. I thought Superman and Lois had a nice twist on that where, you know, Lois just doesn't give a damn about Superman.
01:06:01
Speaker
Like she's kind of suspicious of him, but she's really interested in this new guy, Clark. And I thought that was a nice way to handle that. I think my preferred one would probably be the Man of Steel one, which might be surprising for some people to hear me say that. But I do think that it does such a good job of showing Lois's intelligence and her skills as a reporter if she's able to figure it out right from the start. And I thought the
01:06:28
Speaker
The Dark Knight movie, the Nolan trilogy, I thought they also did a pretty good job handling the differentiation between, except Dark Knight Rises had some issues, but Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, they did it really well. Like, you know, Christian Bale gives very different performances when he's Bruce Wayne in the cave, or Bruce Wayne with Lucius, or Bruce Wayne with Alfred, versus when he's Bruce Wayne in front of everybody else, versus when he's Batman, you know, criticism to the voice aside.
01:06:57
Speaker
No, I'm totally with you. And I, you know, I very recently rewatched the four eighties and nineties Batman movies since I was a kid. And it was fascinating. But yeah, I mean, I agree with you wholeheartedly. What Bale was able to do, it was was really you didn't see that in the same way and any of the three who played the character in those movies. So, no, I agree with you. I think that's a great example. I mean, it's you know, it's funny, like, as I'm thinking about it, because in some instances,
01:07:29
Speaker
We just don't have the example, you know, we handled well or poorly because especially when we're talking about the adaptations. Again, I know there are many instances where they are, but, you know, a lot of a lot of the big ones and certainly a lot of the recent ones, it's just not really a thing necessarily. I think that's probably one of the biggest criticisms I've had. I'll have of basically all the Superman movies is there's very little Clark in them. Like, you know, look at the I guess Superman four had a little they tried in Superman four to some extent when they had the the
01:07:58
Speaker
brief dalliance with the daughter of the new owner of the Daily Planet, which was a nice way to kind of change it up, other stuff in that movie aside. But for the most part, like, you know, Superman Returns, Clark Kent, you blink and you miss him. He's gone. And Man of Steel and Batman V Superman, they also had a, you know, Clark was there, but he wasn't as much of a focus, at least not in like a Clark Kent secret identity fashion. You got a lot of Clark in the beginning of Man of Steel.
01:08:28
Speaker
But once he becomes Superman, that's basically it. You don't see any more of Clark until the end. And we never really get to see... And Henry Cavill's such a good actor. I'm glad he's getting a chance to come back now. But up until now, we haven't really gotten to see what he would do with a true Clark Kent performance. It's true. And look, even though I am a defender of those movies, one of the things I've said, and I will continue to say that I didn't like, is that...
01:08:54
Speaker
Journalism really was just presented in that movie as something that he did and keep his ear to the ground, right? Which is fine. Look, there are plenty of incarnations of the character where that's why he takes a job as a reporter. But I feel like we've moved past that. And I think a comic book story like Earthright really did a great job of showing, you know, what he can do as a reporter and why it's important to actually cares about being a journalist.
01:09:19
Speaker
which is something that, you know, in my headcanon, like when I build my ideal version, it's like, that's there. So, yeah, I mean, it's one of these things where, you know, we're talking about all of these functions that Clark Kent allows, you know, the functions that Clark Kent serves and what he allows the character to do or to be. I think in a lot of these instances, and especially in the movies,
01:09:47
Speaker
Clark really is just the facade, you know, I mean, especially in the, in the, in the Reeve movies. And again, that's my preferred version of the character. Right. But I guess if we're in that mode where Clark is really just what allows Superman to hear what's going on, you know, with the daily planet, then yeah, you're probably not going to get a lot with him. But I agree. I mean, I wish we could see more. I mean, I'm sure.
01:10:18
Speaker
especially from the studio perspective and the filmmaker perspective, we're talking, you know, big screen, big budget movies and we want the spectacle of Superman. But, you know, you also do want the heart and the humanity of Clark. It's interesting when you get to the television side and it's the opposite of that, right? Because they're more limited in what they can do or as the super heroics. So you end up spending a lot more time with Clark on the television shows. That's the complete opposite of the movies. I think that's one of the good things about these
01:10:46
Speaker
television shows that we grew up with because of those budget constraints. You get to spend so much more time with Clark as a character versus generations that came up before us. When they were watching Superman on the big screen or the little screen, it was much more Superman focused because of that. But even something like the animated series, they did a really good job of handling the Clark and Superman differentiation. I've got a lot of criticisms of
01:11:14
Speaker
Burns Clark Kent. I feel like he's, I feel like things are too good for him. And he doesn't have enough differentiation. He doesn't have, and all that kind of stuff. And, but I thought the animated series, they pulled back on that a little bit, where, yeah, Clark Kent's still confident. He's still competent. He's still professional. He's still a great reporter. He's still banter's with Lois. But he, there's just like, there's something different about him. He's just seems more at ease.
01:11:44
Speaker
You know, we had done an episode that I recorded just like last week. We were talking about the first three episodes of that series. And in that we were talking about the Clark Kent Superman dynamic. And we talked about one of our, one of my favorite episodes was the late Mr. Kent when he has that whole thing where he's like, I want to do this. I want to solve this case as Clark Kent, not as Superman. And that whole idea, I think that was
01:12:11
Speaker
really a good way of showing that the journalism side is important to him and that the secret identity. And like he says to Jonathan and Martha in that episode, he's like, when they say you just can't, you're still alive, you just can't be Clark anymore. He's like, no, I am Clark, right? If, you know, if I don't know, I'd go insane if I was Superman 24 hours a day.
01:12:30
Speaker
That's one of my favorite episodes. And I love that scene. And it's, you know, it's ironic, I guess, coming from his parents, like you would think one would be like, no, you're Clark. But, you know, they were you're right. It's like, you know, you're still alive. But no, he makes that point. Now, that's one of my favorite episodes. I love that. So.
01:12:46
Speaker
Again, there's so many different permutations of this, I guess, when we talk about the secret identity. I guess one question I have for you is, regardless of which character we're talking about, and we talk about Superman a lot, so I don't know, Spider-Man maybe?
01:13:04
Speaker
I mean, I guess how do you feel about going back to Ultimate Spider-Man, an instance where a lot of the people in his life came to know, but to the public at large, he was still, his identity was still a mystery. Like, do you put that in the same category? I mean, obviously there is the distinction there, but do you sort of put it in the same category generally speaking about feeling the identity, or do you feel like, no,
01:13:33
Speaker
As long as the public doesn't know, regardless of how many people in their orbit know, we're still holding on to something. Or at a certain point, what difference does it end up making, really? I think Ultimate Spider-Man is a good example. And also, you can bring this back to later seasons of Smallville and The Flash and all that. Because I think it's the similar argument for all of them.
01:13:56
Speaker
When you've got a mix of people who know and don't know in the character's personal life, I think that's really the key to it. So Ultimate Spider-Man, I read the entire run of that thing. I loved it from beginning to
Effectiveness of Secret Identities in Various Media
01:14:08
Speaker
end. But I did feel like in the later issues, after Bagley had left and when there were more and more people who knew that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, eventually did get to a point of, well, what purpose is this secret identity serving anymore?
01:14:21
Speaker
And that's the similar thing I felt with the later seasons of Smallville in the Flash. It was just kind of like, okay, he's got this other identity, but he's not really, it's not really telling us anything about his character. It's not really doing anything for the story. So there's no drama involved with it. It just kind of feels like, I think the big thing with a secret identity is there needs to be a reason for it. If you don't have a reason for the secret identity, then don't do the secret identity.
01:14:47
Speaker
you know, we mentioned Power Rangers earlier. That's a good example of it because, you know, the supervillains know, you know, they're watching the Power Rangers any time of day and they can attack them any time of day in the middle of the park. I mean, how many times do the people of Angel Grove have to see these five to six, you know, teenagers who all conveniently only dress in one color each
01:15:10
Speaker
fighting off these, you know, the supervillains in the park in broad daylight before somebody says, I wonder if they've got some similarity to those, you know, those five to six primary colored, you know, superheroes we got running around who are always fighting monsters. And it's crazy, especially the season when Balkan skull, we're trying to figure it out and we're not thinkers, but it's just like, really, it's right at you. No, it's true. You know, again, I could go on a whole rant about this. It is.
01:15:40
Speaker
It was such an odd choice to me that Rita and all the villains knew their secret identities and were able to watch them at any point. It just, like, I don't know. It's just such a curious choice to me. It feels like it... Why? It makes it...
01:15:59
Speaker
Well, too easy, seemingly, for the villain. I mean, clearly not, right? Because then the villain never wins. It just feels like what an advantage to have. And then, yes, to your point, what then is the purpose of the secret identity?
01:16:11
Speaker
if, you know, I mean, other than to allow the Rangers some privacy, because the bulk and skulls of the world, I mean, them all the time, but they helmet anyway. Yeah, there are these Mars stars and they're always hanging out at the bar anyway. I don't know. But yeah, that's I know another another sort of funny example, the secret identities. Yeah, I think I think that's really where I come down on this. If you can find a reason for the secret identity, either a reason for the story to work, a reason for
01:16:39
Speaker
to tell us something about the character, then absolutely the secret identity is important. I think, like I said, Superman and Batman, Spider-Man, those are like the holy trinity of secret identities, I think. Like, those are characters where if you take away the secret identity, you really lose something when you get rid of that. Other characters, you know, Iron Man, Captain America, Wonder Woman even. I don't really think a secret identity is really, or Thor, right? You don't need a secret identity for any of those guys.
01:17:05
Speaker
They've done stories where they've had secret identities, but those stories always felt a little bit on the foreside to me. And then you've got this range of characters in the middle. Daredevil's one of those characters who works in either a secret identity context or without a secret identity context, or where it's kind of like an open secret type of thing, like Wade was doing during his run.
01:17:29
Speaker
And then you've got characters like the X-Men who, and I think the X-Men's so similar to what happens on a lot of the CW shows because they're completely insular. They only talk to each other. They're never talking to anyone else. It's the same thing on the later seasons of The Flash. Like, they don't ever interact with anybody who doesn't know that they're superheroes. So I can understand why you don't need a secret identity in that instance. Yes. Yeah, no. That all tracks. And, you know, with Daredevil,
01:18:00
Speaker
I agree. That can sort of work either way. I like the open secret bit because I think that if I haven't weighed stuff, but I mean, I do remember even later on in the, in the, in the Bendis run, it was, you know, you know, he had been outed by the tabloid, but he was, he was denying it and he was fighting it. Some people who believed he was Daredevil and others who didn't. And so there was enough, you know, there was enough ambiguity there where I think that really, you can really get a lot of mileage out of that. Yeah. And that's another example too. Like when you say, what's the reason? Well,
01:18:29
Speaker
The fact that he's an attorney is a big part of the character. So we need a secret identity for that. So so again, like what the character does, if anything, you know, when they're not being a superhero, you know, could be an argument potentially for a secret identity in their case. So I mean, also in another example, you know, from last time you were here, we talked about the Punisher Punisher is a character who does not need us, who's never had a secret identity, doesn't need one, doesn't care about one. Right.
01:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, totally. So yeah, I think I think I think the main thing about the secret identity is if you're going to do it, you got to have a reason. And you have to figure out a way to make it work so that the characters are so you're not insulting anyone's intelligence. Like you said, like the like the Power Rangers thing, when even Vulcan Skulls seem like they should be able to figure this out. That's a problem with that secret identity. And that was some of the issues with some of the like you said, the Lois and Clark of it when, you know,
01:19:27
Speaker
She's seeing both of them like every single day. She's in this kind of romantic flirtatious relationship with both, but she can't see the connection until they touch her face or something. And then all of a sudden, then she picks up on it. So yeah, I think you need to have a way to keep it if there's a reason for it and to also have it in a way that it's convincing. Absolutely.
01:19:52
Speaker
You know, Hal Jordan, probably another example where you don't need it. I mean, especially in this modern era where the vast, vast majority of his stories have been in outer space, sort of like it's kind of irrelevant. And I'm glad you brought up Wonder Woman, because, yeah, I mean, that's sort of the flip of a lot of this, right? Where, you know, I think made what I hope is a good argument for, you know, secret identities conceptually, right? You know, it's always working each case, but when it does, it can have a lot of value.
01:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I feel like Wonder Woman because you're right. We have seen instances where they've crafted one for her, but. Yeah, I don't know that that totally works, right? So that's an example, I think, of where, you know, it's it might not necessarily fit. Yeah, it's a curious to see, I guess, where future in both comics and film and television, where future stories go and whether we'll I mean,
01:20:48
Speaker
You know, we've been around long enough that we've seen these things, you know, it's kind of going cycles. And so maybe we'll see a little bit of return to more of the secret identities.
Future of Secret Identities in Media
01:20:58
Speaker
I'll be curious, but certainly in the realm of Superman, I hope that it comes back in the comics. I hope that it stays where it's being utilized on screen. I really think it adds a lot.
01:21:09
Speaker
Well, yeah, it'll be interesting to see what happens now that we know we're going to be getting more Superman movies. We're obviously going to be getting more Batman movies with Pattinson, so it'll be interesting to see how they continue it. We're getting more Spider-Man movies, too, and now his identity's been hidden again. We're going to get Daredevil and all that. I think it's going to be interesting to see what Marvel in particular does, because
01:21:32
Speaker
Now they seem to be moving into more characters that they didn't have as much access to before and where the secret identity is a little bit more of a part of it. So, you know, like Spider-Man, like Daredevil. So it'll be interesting to see how they how they juggle that. Well, I guess the I mean, I don't know if you want to. There's more you want to talk about the last thing I would say. And just to kind of piggyback off of that, it depends to. I guess the Arrowverse shows kind of
01:22:04
Speaker
You know, in a movie, for example, a two hour, two and a half hour movie, you know, you only have so much real estate. And, you know, that's why I start to want to talk about the Superman movies. You know, I think Clark is designed to, you know, serve a specific function there and kind of does. And that's it. And then we want to get into the super Superman action or I guess the intention. Whereas when you are in this episodic format and that's why, too, with on the Marvel side, you're right. I mean, it is interesting now. Not only do they have more characters to play with, but
01:22:23
Speaker
poke a hole in this argument.
01:22:34
Speaker
Now they have this whole platform that they're using. It's not just like, hey, any character we're going to do something with, they get a two hour movie. It's like, no, some of them are getting a nine episode television series or however many episodes they're doing. So there, I think you need a little bit more, more fuel, right, to keep that going. And the secret identity can then afford a lot. So yeah, it'd be curious to see where it goes. Yeah. Yeah.
01:22:59
Speaker
I think that's basically anything I had to say. Actually, no. There is one other point that I think kind of factors into this, maybe in a small way. And it's the idea of the actors showing their faces. I think that seems to be one aspect that comes up a lot. When you were on, we talked about Spider-Man 3. We talked about how always at some point during the main battle, Peter Parker's mask conveniently gets torn so we can see Tobey Maguire's face.
01:23:27
Speaker
My favorite one was in The Avengers when the alien grabs Cap's head and conveniently pulls his mask off so we can see Chris Evans. And so I wonder how much of that is a factor in some of these things leaning away from secret identities.
01:23:45
Speaker
That's a fair point. And yes, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. But I feel like you can kind of have your cake and eat it, too, because it's one thing if in the heat of of the battle in the third act, right, it comes off. But I still feel like that's still a limited. You know, a limited setting where where that would be. And then I think there's a lot of value there, you know, and even going back to our Spider-Man three discussion emotions were running high in that final battle, you know, with Harry and Sandman and Venom. So.
01:24:15
Speaker
You know, I guess I'm more forgiving of that. And I I can appreciate the fact that, yes, you have these actors and you want to show their faces, but I don't think that necessarily I think I don't think that their masks getting torn or removed in the heat of, you know, climactic battle necessarily precludes them doing some more secret identity work early on. So I think there's a way to make
Reflecting on the Discussion and Outro
01:24:38
Speaker
it work. But yeah, in those instances, I think you're totally spot on. OK.
01:24:43
Speaker
Any other final words you wanted to say about secret identities? No, I really enjoyed this. It was a fun, fun little thought exercise, I guess prior to preparing for this. I mean, I hadn't, I hadn't thought about it a ton other than just in the Superman context, but it was interesting to sort of, you know, uh, survey the landscape a little bit more and see where we are. So I appreciate the opportunity to be on and it was a lot of fun. Thank you. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, well, you know, as always, always welcome back to any time you want to come on back. Um, but why don't you tell people where they can find you until then?
01:25:13
Speaker
Sure. So if you're looking for just one place to go flat, squirrel productions.com, all of my film and podcast projects are there, but specifically on the podcast front and what we've been talking about here. So I do two Superman shows. One is digging for kryptonite. The other is another exciting episode in the adventures of Superman. They also have summoning the Zords. That's the power ranger show, but they're all available on all major podcast platforms. So I hope people will check them out and hope you enjoy. Yep. Really good listens all around. Um,
01:25:40
Speaker
Anthony, thanks again for coming on, and we'll have to have you back on again at some point. Thanks so much. Thank you. All right, that does it for this episode of Superhero Cinephile. Superherocinephiles.com is the website, SuperCinemapod on Twitter and Instagram. And remember, if you sign up for the Patreon page, a little as a dollar a month, you get these episodes a week in advance. And we've also got the companion podcast where we talk about comic books and graphic novels. Thanks so much for listening, and we will talk to you next time.
01:26:08
Speaker
If you enjoy the Superhero Cinephiles, then you'll also love my companion podcast, the Superhero Cinephiles Book Club. All my Patreon subscribers get access to this exclusive podcast where I review superhero comics and graphic novels. Not sure what comics you want to read next or what you should dive into? I've got you covered on that. I'll be doing reviews, recommendations, and also talking to you about useful entry points.
01:26:29
Speaker
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01:27:12
Speaker
Thank you for listening and as always good night. Good evening. God bless.