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Interview with Renee Collins - Ep 282
673 Plays9 months ago
Today we are interviewing Andrew’s former student Renee Collins on her history in archaeology and her past and present experiences in CRM. Renee is currently a Project Archaeologist at Alpine Archaeological Consultants, concluding her academic journey in 2018 to transition into the private sector. With her humble beginnings at Moorpark College, she has now established herself as a professional archaeologist.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/282
Links
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
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Transcript
Introduction to Archaeology Podcast Network
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
Episode 282 Overview: Featuring Renee Collins
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 282 for February 6th, 2024. I'm your host, Chris Webster. On today's show, we talk to a former student of Andrew's, Renee Collins. She tells us about her journey to CRM and beyond. So let us know if you want to tell your own story and the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:50
Speaker
Welcome
Guest Introductions: Bill and Andrew
00:00:51
Speaker
to the show, everyone. Joining me today is Bill in Northern California. Good morning. And Andrew in Southern California.
00:00:59
Speaker
How's it going, guys? All right. Well, it's Andrew's topic this week and he decided to bring on a guest. So I'll let him introduce the topic and our guest. Go ahead, Andrew.
Spotlight on Renee Collins: From Student to CRM Archaeologist
00:01:08
Speaker
OK, so yeah, since it was my topic, like, do I want to do the work? No. So I'm going to have a guest do my work, man. And sounds like a teacher. It is. It is. So I do. I just, you know, delegate. So.
00:01:21
Speaker
My guest today is one of my students. This is Renee Collins. I'm going to embarrass Renee right out of the gate. Renee is one of my big success stories. Renee started at Moorpark with me years ago and she went on to get her master's degree. She's the first master's candidate I ever had. So I learned a whole bunch.
00:01:42
Speaker
from Renee, which she doesn't realize because when you're a professor and you're going through these hoops for the first time, you learn a lot because you've never been through those hoops before, you know, in that in that way. So I thought because myself and Bill and Chris are at this point just
00:02:00
Speaker
armchair CRM archaeologist, let's be honest. What do we do? We're not out there. Let's get a view from somebody who is out there. So Renee has been doing CRM for a while now, and I would just like to spend this time talking with Renee, you know, getting her feeling of CRM, her experiences, and we can just go from there. So Renee, just give a little about yourself and how you got into all this in the first
Career Shift: From Music to Archaeology
00:02:29
Speaker
place.
00:02:31
Speaker
Well, I chose poorly in my profession. Yes. Clearly. That goes off. Archaeology wasn't my first like endeavor. I worked in the music industry for a little bit and then I decided to come back because I just didn't like it. And I'm like, Oh, let's just go to archaeology. What I want to do since I was a kid, same narrative as everybody.
00:02:57
Speaker
I went back to Moore Park in 2010. I was a non-traditional student as I was a young 24 year old. And I took Andrew's class. I'm like, okay, this dude seems kind of cool. And I will get back into the things. And I sat in the back of the class. I was never like that. I'm going to be that a student and sit in the front. I was like really quiet, super quiet. I had twin sister. She took the class with me.
00:03:23
Speaker
as well. And unfortunately, she sucked. I won. That's just what it is. I'm the B twin. She's a twin. But you know, it is what it is. The B twin prevails.
Belize Experience: Extensive CRM Work
00:03:37
Speaker
And I just I fell in love what I wanted to do. And I'm like, Oh, man, this guy brings so much enthusiasm. And I just continue to take classes with Andrew. I mean,
00:03:46
Speaker
you have so many options at a community college with the same professor, you know? So I just kept going, kept going. And then 2012 rolled around and I said, Hey, I need to like do a field school, you know, and I'm gonna steal your line. There I was in Belize 2012. Yes. And I was there for seven years in Belize. I went all the way through, through my undergrad and my graduate and it really guided me through
00:04:15
Speaker
what I needed to do because I was just like a chick of my head cut off. I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And then I just did all that, worked in the Southwest for a little bit. I went to Northern Arizona for my master's degree. And I worked with Dr. Jaime Awe as my professor, my advisor, and
00:04:36
Speaker
Lo and behold, I asked Andrew if you can be on my on my committee as my fourth. And he said, yes, hesitantly, like very hesitant. Yeah, I was like, oh, no, no, no. Well, maybe just for me. Yeah. And again, that was the first time I've ever, you know, I was ever on a committee like that where I had the responsibilities of like, OK, you have to read this thesis and get back to the candidate. And there's a certain meetings you have to make. And this is in the pre-Zoom times just barely, you know. So it's like you have to go for the defense and stuff. But it was really fun.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, you had a great time. I did. I was excited. I still thank you for that. Lots of guidance. But, you know, and give yourself credit at the same time, you know, like it like you did the whole beliefs thing for years and years. And that was not my project. You know, that was Jaime's project. So like you you signed up for those experiences and were successful there. And I know that they wanted you back and you sort of
00:05:33
Speaker
On those projects, those international projects, you know, be it Belize or whatever, they're sort of a going up through the ranks kind of thing over the years. And Renee, I know for you that you went up through those ranks and made smart choices as you as you went. So in terms of Belize, do you have future plans there or what do you think? Definitely. I mean, Belize is in my heart always as a Mesoamerican archaeologist.
00:06:02
Speaker
I'm in CRM cause I had to make some money, you know, like there's no, there's no jobs in Belize, but I mean, I always constantly think about going back. Always. It's just when the opportunity arises, I will take it in a heartbeat. It's just, you know, life and you know, I'm constantly researching. It's just because I'm not there. It doesn't mean I'm not like,
00:06:25
Speaker
Oh, well, you know, I used to do that. No, I'm always in it. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think a lot of us do that. I feel like that, you know, there's there's years that I don't go to police, but I still feel like I always have my toe in. You know, I think there's an aspect of that that we we always do. In terms of your CRM side, what was your first CRM gig?
Rekindling Passion: First CRM Job in Durango
00:06:45
Speaker
Oh, actually, right out of my master's, I was like. I thought I was going to go back to police and I
00:06:54
Speaker
at the academic world, I'm like, you know what, I am burned out. I don't want to do this anymore. And then I saw an ad on well, this disbanded archaeo field works post alpine archaeology had an excavation in Durango.
00:07:09
Speaker
doing an excavation. And I'm like, Oh, that'd be awesome. And I applied and they put me on their crew. And it kind of revitalized my love for archaeology again, because I was just, I had no responsibility, I mean, responsibility to write up stuff. But I mean, like, just excavating and it like, it brought me back to my roots of like, Oh, this is what I want to do. And I fell in love. And I'm like, Oh,
00:07:33
Speaker
This is it. And I just kept doing all these different CRM gigs, like excavation. I went to a big pipeline monitoring project, surveys. I mean, I dealt outside of Alpine and then I went to different CRM companies and then I found myself back with them. And I'm a full time project archeologist with them. I worked with Alpine on one project when I was shovel bombing across the United States.
00:08:01
Speaker
It was up near, uh, Oh, what's that town just west of steamboat Springs? Craig Craig. That's where it was. Yeah. Craig America. Yeah. That was interesting. Yeah. It was probably like Rex pipeline project. Maybe.
00:08:19
Speaker
You know, it was definitely pipeline and it was a, it was a phase three. What was a block excavation, but it was 2008, seven, something like that. I can't remember. So it was in the way, but I don't know if it was associated. Yeah. Well, I mean, I was just up in Craig for a year on a transmission line. I would say a year, six months, whatever it felt like year you're in Craig. Yeah. Uh, yeah. I mean, talk about a whole different, like, cause you're dealing with paleontologists, contractors.
00:08:48
Speaker
construction workers, all that fun stuff. I thrive in that environment because I know how to talk to these individuals and I find it fun. I'm protecting the archaeology and do it at the same time. It's great. It's a different type of monitoring, not just windshield archaeology. No books read on that project. And it's the first time I ever got COVID. I will say thank you Craig America.
00:09:18
Speaker
I even worked during that whole pandemic and here we are. I got it because I decided to go out. Yeah. Oh, man. You know, as as we go through this, I like to ask some other basic questions. I mean, like, like, do you have like a best part as CRM?
Teaching and Inspiring New Archaeologists
00:09:36
Speaker
You know, like we all have sort of like that day or that thing. Like, like what's something you just like really like about it? I like we get a lot of like green students coming out of school and
00:09:49
Speaker
We get to teach them and I love teaching. I really like giving my knowledge to the new generation of archaeologists and just seeing their bright eyed bushy tail and they think they they know what they're getting into. But I teach them the realities of it and just like help them along and string them along with it. And I like giving my knowledge to students or students, young adults coming out and
00:10:15
Speaker
And they get so inspired and they ask me all these questions about grad school and what should I do this or do that? And just about archeology in general, it makes me excited and they get excited. And that brings me back actually every time I went down to Belize, I would get Andrew's students from the community college. They'd always set me up with his students, which I don't know if that's a curse or not. But I feel like there's some expectations when I get his students. So I'm like, oh crap, like what?
00:10:42
Speaker
How should I do this? Like, what did they expect out of me? Because I was an ex-student, you know, and actually they come out a lot better. And I feel so good because it's, I'm not one of those people like, Oh yeah, it's just archaeology. Where I bring a lot of enthusiasm and they learn so much. And that's my goal is for them to learn and have passion because a lot of people that come into archaeology, they get like,
00:11:07
Speaker
beat down by like old timers and they make them feel like crap. And I don't want them to feel that way. I want them to like, you know, go ahead in their lives and be like, this is what I want to do. Yeah, I'm really glad you said that. I think it's so important that sort of make sure the old timers don't get you down because it's almost seems like their job. There's always the old guy who you can never do anything right for, you know, and it's I'm so glad that you're there to sort of give them a shield for that.
Navigating Academia and CRM Challenges
00:11:38
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I've gone through, like, I've had the academic beat down and I've had the private sector beat down where it's like, I don't want to do this anymore. But it's like, I have the perseverance. Like, no, they win if I don't, like, if I leave and it's not like that. If you love something, you're going to keep doing it. Yeah. Well, I have a question along those lines, but we'll do that on the other side of the break. Back in a minute.
00:12:04
Speaker
Welcome back to the CRM Archaeology Podcast, Episode 282. We're talking to Renee Collins. You started off by saying Belize is kind of your thing. You want to go back there. You're always thinking about Belize. You're always doing stuff like that. I talked to a number of CRM archaeologists, and we all have probably, where
00:12:25
Speaker
This wasn't your first choice, right? Now, sometimes right out of an undergrad, it is your first choice, right? You don't even know what else to do. But if you're coming out of a master's degree and you work and you research something else because that's what you do in a master's degree, a lot of times you did that because that was your passion. You found it or it became your passion, one of the two. So I'm curious, do you, I mean, you're, you're in CRM now, you're at a, you know, you're at a pretty decent company in a place of the country where there's, there's a lot of work and you're managing projects.
00:12:53
Speaker
I mean, this sounds like a career, you know what I mean? And I'm just wondering, do you have a plan where you're looking at these steps to maybe get you in a certain direction or are you kind of going with the flow for a little while, which is totally fine. People do one of the other things.
Balancing Health and Career: MS Diagnosis
00:13:08
Speaker
You don't have to have a step by step. This is what I'm going to do. But I'm just curious as to if your end goal is to eventually make it back to maybe Belize, maybe teaching or something like that and what your path is to get there.
00:13:22
Speaker
not to put you on the spot where you see yourself in five years. What a cheap question. Um, I don't really have a plan per se. I'm just like go with the flow type of individual. I'm happy where I'm at right now. I'm always looking for the future, but as of right now, so
00:13:47
Speaker
Let's, uh, let's make it a little dark right now. I, in 2021, I got diagnosed with MS. So it was like a crappy situation. And I'm like, Oh gosh, how am I going to do field stuff? Like what am I going to do type of thing? But in reality, I'm, I don't let it bother me. I got diagnosed. I got treated, you know, I'm just going with the flow and.
00:14:11
Speaker
To be honest with you, I don't know how my body's going to be. Like if I get asked to go to Belize or just go back to Belize, like the environment's totally different than like an arid environment. So I don't know my reaction time, like what my body's going to do. But then I think back to Andrew's advisor, Wendy Ashmore, and she had MS. And I met her and that leads, she's kick ass. Like she,
00:14:35
Speaker
you know, she went down to Belize and I met her at the essays in 2012. And she didn't let that disease bother her. Like she was just walking around the cave like nothing's wrong. Like, I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna be like her. Hell yeah. So I mean, I always look at like
00:14:50
Speaker
Should I go the federal route? Or, you know, should I go back to school? I mean, Andrew and I had this conversation not too long ago about like, did I make the right choice? Do I need to go like get a PhD? Like, because that was my end goal is to get a PhD. Like when I was 16, I wrote down like, my goal is to have a PhD in archaeology. Like, what 16 year old does that? Like, even know what a PhD is?
00:15:12
Speaker
as you know, the time the time in, you know, the US, right, or just the world about like going to school and actually getting a job in academia is too far between. And teaching is just like what I want to do. But it's really hard to get into that, you know, sector, I just, I don't know, I'm like in a crossroads, like I'm always in a crossroads. I'm like, did I even make the right choice? But here we are, like, until I decide to, you know,
00:15:41
Speaker
go back to least permanently and like, you know, permanently and just like marry a doctor and like have disposable income. I'm just kidding. I am not a folder. Um, but you know, I'm, I'm happy where I'm at right now with Alpine. They, as a CRM firm, I'm gonna pitch them. I have, they're so supportive. I've never worked with a company that's been so supportive in my life in general, like whether it be, you know, like,
00:16:10
Speaker
retail or, you know, one of those jobs, they care. And that's, that's a big thing for me. I want to know, you made me think of something Renee, because, and Bill actually put this in our little side chat on the podcast here. I've actually kind of wanted to teach for a long time. I find myself that I like being in that sort of environment, you know, just, I don't know. I just like that, but I have a master's degree.
00:16:32
Speaker
I don't have a PhD and I want to know from Bill and Andrew, first off, I know there's places in the country where you can do some form of teaching with a master's degree, right? Generally it's accepted knowledge that you need a PhD to be a college professor. If that's the level you want to teach at, is there talk in that world about, you know, with, with a lot more people talking about not going to college at all, is there college is talking about maybe walking that back a little bit for, for a level of college professor for master's degrees?
00:17:00
Speaker
No, they're not. So, you know, PhDs are rare in the actual world, but they're abundant, ubiquitous and not uncommon in academia. And so, I don't see a world in the United States where there's going to be a time where we don't have enough PhDs to teach.
Is a PhD Necessary for Teaching?
00:17:22
Speaker
so you know if they can get a phd why not right it's just like crm if they can get some of the masters why not you know i just think that i don't really see there being a pathway for a lot of people who don't have a really unique skill right like so some folks are excellent artists and so they can.
00:17:39
Speaker
be hired on as instructors and they have like no degree, right? And some people are, you know, amazing business people or folks who have made influential gains elsewhere and they teach and they don't have a PhD. But for everyday folks who want to teach, I mean, I think that like PhD is just kind of the way that it goes in the United States. And it's very, very hard to have a job with benefits. It's something that's going to beat Alpine. It's hard to get something that's going to beat Alpine if you don't have a PhD.
00:18:10
Speaker
I was thinking that. You can work yourself into a six-figure salary in some CRM firms, depending on where it's at and how big it is. You know what I mean? You can work yourself to death in academia, teaching 19 different adjunct classes and all this other stuff for less than minimum wage.
00:18:26
Speaker
you know, really working 10-hour, 12-hour days at multiple universities just trying to scrap together some kind of a, you know, teaching career. And academia doesn't seem to mind whatsoever how many adjuncts there are or how horrible their conditions are because there's always someone who will do that job just so that they can say they're a professor.
00:18:46
Speaker
Right. Although on the flip side, like I my short answer is I totally agree with Bill. Like that's that's that world. Except what I would say, like for somebody like you, Renee, you know, you have a master's in hand, you have a ton of experience. Yeah. You could teach part time and at a community college, you could teach like master's is meets minimum quals at a community college. So we have like part timers who have only a master's, you know, so for
00:19:13
Speaker
for you or for Chris, you know, too, you can do that kind of stuff. And ultimately, we have to think about the big picture, which is quality of life. So while what everything Bill said is like, correct, if you're all into being in an R1 university and, you know, researching and living the college professor dream, whatever that is, yeah, no way.
00:19:31
Speaker
Like, that's like PhD only that whole world. Right. But you stay and Bill wrote this in the in the comments in here. You stay at Alpine. But then you're like, oh, yeah. And then on Wednesday nights, I teach intrad archaeology at the local community college. Like, I think the future really for all of us is side hustles like that. And then ultimately that might bring you the joy you want, because like for like you were for actually both for Renee and for Chris, I can see both you guys doing that.
00:20:01
Speaker
You know, like Wednesday nights I go over and I teach intro to archaeology because both of you would be like fantastic in front of the class, you know, all that stuff like you could those gigs are out there. So I think the future is about thinking of it like that. Don't quit your day job kind of thing, but expand those little side hustle things. And that might bring you the joy you crave, you know.
00:20:20
Speaker
Well, in all fairness, too, with the situation that's going on, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but there's several articles that have been coming out about how there's going to be a shortage of archaeologists. I mean, folks who are working in CRM know that there's not enough folks who are coming out that are ready to work in CRM. And so there are increasing conversations at the SAA and other organizations about
00:20:41
Speaker
how can we increase the quality of the folks who are graduating but also get more individuals to finish college. I think that it really has to be a collaboration between CRM government agencies because government agencies are the ones who set the bar on what kind of education needs to happen, what kind of ways folks have to report at the SHPO and other things. When I worked in Arizona,
00:21:06
Speaker
you have to have a phd to have an excavation permit in the state of arizona and so those organizations if there's no one who meets those criteria then you can see how everything just kind of grinds to a halt and then of course universities they need to figure out some kind of pathway and i think that you know i think that there's there can be it depends on the institution it can be a dangerous precedent right where if you just have
00:21:29
Speaker
folks from the community teaching for even less than an adjunct just one class at a time, you don't have to provide benefits or anything and you can just really dog folks who really want to help others and pretty much build your entire program around, you know, folks who are teaching one class at a time and then you don't need any professors, right? So I can see how some institutions that glimmer in their eyes shining extra bright when you hear what you just said, Andrew, like, yes,
00:21:54
Speaker
Finally, we've gotten it. Now we don't need anyone. We can have people who are just off the streets and now we can just have them teach and shift everything to night school and then no longer even need buildings. We don't need anything. There's that, but there's also the fact that we've got a wealth of folks who have experience.
00:22:12
Speaker
Can teach in ways that professors can't and so adding some folks into universities to teach these certification classes to teach classes that are not intro to archaeology but actually you know my my an excavation techniques something that's an actual like focused class that
00:22:29
Speaker
When you take it, your assignments actually show that you have skills and ability, you know, identifying these certain kinds of ceramics, doing GIS, these kind of things that really will give people true workplace skills that can be taught by people who are absolute experts that universities, a lot of times they don't have those folks.
00:22:47
Speaker
So I do see a pathway where not teaching archaeology 100, let the professors teach that huge one, teach the skills and values based ones, you know, archaeology communications, right? Chris is a perfect person to talk about that, to talk about presentations, podcasting, blogging, writing, publishing, and networking, all of this stuff. There's not going to be a professor who has the skills that Chris does, right? So those are
00:23:14
Speaker
like the perfect avenues for you to have your own niche thing that then you make sure that agencies and CRM companies know you're teaching this, that it's super valuable and any person who finishes this class, they've got this skill. They learn from the best.
00:23:28
Speaker
Bill, I agree with you completely of what you're saying. I mean, there's a massive shortage of like CRM archaeologists. We are having a hard time finding people. But in reality, though, like in the academic room, I'm not shooting at you, Andrew. I'm just saying it's hard to be on this podcast. But like at the academic level, professors that are in like, you know, these R1 schools, they kind of do a disservice to the students where they're just teaching mindlessly, like classes that don't do anything for them.
00:23:58
Speaker
to it and that boggles my mind because you have these students that come out and they have no nothing. They don't think about SHPO or Section 106 or what CRM really is because these professors don't do it. They just teach academic and that there needs to be like a class or a couple courses where it explains what Section 106 is, what
00:24:19
Speaker
what tribal liaisons are, coordinators, what tribes we work with, and all those communication factors, what to expect, like my goal is to have a class that's called the realities of archaeology, and it really goes into the private sector, not just academic, what to expect in the real world.
Critique of Academic Preparation for CRM Work
00:24:35
Speaker
That's I think that's great. You didn't backstab me at all. I actually agree with you 100 percent. And I've been pushing some of that in my in my own classes. So no, good for you. And I can't agree more. Nice. Yeah. I will say, Andrew, like if it wasn't for you and you're like more more per college is really like the premier college to like.
00:24:54
Speaker
take all these classes, it's like, Oh, your excavation class. This is what archaeology is. Welcome to what we do. And like, I've seen so many students come through with these classes, like, Oh, they're not going to make it. Like, this is they don't want to do it. Like, it's sad when you go to a field school in like the Sableys, and I've seen it where
00:25:12
Speaker
They're supposed to be there for a month and they can't hack it for two weeks and they leave. And they're like, oh, I just got my BA. I don't know what to do now. And that sucks. And that's the disservice that academia does to these students. It does. Or they can be grad students and that happens. Like, how could you not know this by now?
00:25:28
Speaker
Okay. Well, let's take a break. And while Bill works on my honorary PhD from Berkeley. Hey, I want one of those too. That's going to throw me on the list. All right. I'll add you to the list. Yeah. All right. Well, Bill works on that. We'll take a break and come back for second three, back in a minute. Welcome back to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 282. And we're wrapping up this conversation with professional CRM archaeologist Renee Collins. How's that?
00:26:00
Speaker
I mean, you are, whether you like it or not. So along those lines, along those lines, you know, we're, we're, we're coming out of winter in some places. We're still deep in winter and others and entering winter and others. But as we start looking at the next field season,
00:26:13
Speaker
I think you mentioned in one of the segments that there's not enough people to work in this field. You're constantly looking for people. What can or should somebody do if they want to consider a job in that area? What should they be studying? Things like that.
Advice for Aspiring CRM Archaeologists
00:26:26
Speaker
Not necessarily with Alpine, but maybe with Alpine. But what would you think you'd be looking for in somebody that you guys would hire?
00:26:33
Speaker
Well, since this is a really interesting field season, we're actually starting, it's the middle of winter, it's writing time. We have a lot of projects coming up like, coming up as in like, soon. And this is not normal. There's just so many different jobs happening right now. And we have a shortage of filling our our slots with field techs and
00:26:52
Speaker
without pine, we really pride ourselves of like you don't need like we have interns and you can have no field experience and apply like we how you gonna learn if you don't apply like that's how you get experience right and we we teach we train our hands on and it's okay if you're super green and don't know that's okay. That's our job. We are here to teach you. And if
00:27:17
Speaker
You thought you worked with somebody and they don't teach you and they think they know everything. Yeah. Excuse my language. You're full of shit. Yeah. But yeah, like we're really easy to like apply for. You just go on our Alpine archeology.com and like there's a hiring button and you just upload your CV and it is totally okay if you don't have, you know,
00:27:37
Speaker
a ton of CRM experience reading like that. Like if you have one thing on your CV, that's okay. And I'll go back to Andrew, because during one of his classes, as a survey class, we created a CV. And he's like, it's okay, if there's nothing on there, like, we're building that. And you could put this class as your, you know, experience, because it is experienced. And don't be afraid to apply the worst answer you can get is no.
00:28:00
Speaker
But you will not say no. We need people. We train. And if you keep going, you level up every time you go onto a job and you can ask all the questions. I encourage all the questions. Someone who asks questions shows their ambition and wants to learn. Someone who doesn't ask any questions. Yeah, that's another story. But please, this firm is more than happy for anyone to apply.
00:28:29
Speaker
Okay. Nice. Even East coasters. Yes, sir. Arizona was always like, Ooh, they're from Illinois. Like watch them because you know, it gets warm here. And that makes sense. Midwesterners and Easterners and Arizona would just like,
00:28:51
Speaker
It was like the cartoons, right? Where bugs, bunnies crawling across the desert, like gasping and seeing like no mirages and stuff like that. Like, dude, until the other end of 10, what's wrong? I will say though, Alpa, we're really big on safety. And if you're, we encourage everyone to speak up. And as me as a crew chief is my responsibility to make sure everyone's okay. And it's not like,
00:29:14
Speaker
Oh, well, we're gonna push and push and it's the job. No, people are the, you know, are the main priority. If you're not feeling good, please tell me. There's no, oh my God, she's doing, I'm gonna get in trouble if she asks me, like, if she tells me or whatever, like, if you're not feeling good, you're not gonna get reprimanded because you're not feeling good. Please tell me.
00:29:33
Speaker
I think that's a big thing with newbies coming in. They're afraid to say, hey, I don't feel good because they think they're going to get in trouble or something like that. No, you are a human being. If you're not feeling good and your crew chief doesn't pay attention to you, they're the problem, not you. That's a huge new development from what I was doing, CRM.
00:29:56
Speaker
Yeah, but that also follows in line with the question that I had too about new hire folks. What's some things that you find yourself more than once having to tell new people? Like what are some of the things that they have to learn from you when they first get hired? Common sense. That's a big thing. Well,
00:30:23
Speaker
I feel I don't know, make some older generation, newer generation come in, it's a lot of like hand holding, which is it's kind of like, Oh, my phone says is my phone says that it's sometimes it's like, well, my phone has a compass. So I get to use my phone, absolutely not use a real compass. Thank you very much. Or I don't have service. It's like, I don't know. It's hard.
00:30:51
Speaker
I haven't really had too many new people to be honest with you. Usually they go on easier projects before they come to me because they're trained a little bit. But I don't know. I think it is a lot of common sense questions. And that has to do with life because I blame COVID for a lot of things where students don't really know because they're in a bubble.
00:31:13
Speaker
It's not their fault. I will say, I will say real quick as a tech guy on side by side tests, the phone compasses are actually highly accurate, but they die whereas regular compasses don't. So that's the big disadvantage. It's a vital skill to have a real compass. Also the phone compass doesn't have a siding mirror and it doesn't have a ruler on the side for you to actually use on the map. And when you lay it down, it like moves all around and stuff like that.
00:31:42
Speaker
Totally. Right. Compared to the compass. If you're totally lost out there, because the other thing too that I recognized is that your own compass automatically accounts for declination. Like it just knows where you're at and it just adds the declination on there. You have to manually do that with a compass.
00:32:02
Speaker
I will say all my compass skills come from Andrew. Yeah, good. You know, it's so funny. We're talking about declination. I literally my Saturday class yesterday, we set our declination on our campuses. So and I agree with everything what Bill said. I'm sure Renee agrees to. You know, it's like, dude, you need to use a real compass. There are other things on here. The mirror, the measuring, like you need to get out of cyber world.
00:32:26
Speaker
But I mean, to be true, I found myself using the phone more than ever before these last, you know,
00:32:33
Speaker
Mm hmm. It's got a lot of stuff on it. It's good. I mean, it helps, but you still got to know your old foundational skills. Yeah. And then I have the students like check with their phone or try them both or see if they're the same or different, you know. So and we sometimes download new apps and stuff just to try them, any sort of mapping apps or stuff, you know, just try and see if they work or not.
00:32:55
Speaker
One of the good ones that I saw that was a free plant app too. It's called PlantNet and it's actually pretty decent compared to, you know, a lot of the other, I remember having to carry all these like books on different kinds of plants that go to different states and stuff. I need to learn all these cacti and stuff. Well, the plant app, it's not bad. It's not as bad, you know. So, another useful app.
00:33:20
Speaker
I guess I have another question too. You know, as Andrew and I teach students, so what should we be teaching students? I don't know if common sense is one that we can really try. I try. It's like, you know, you got to figure that out on your own, I guess. But what are some things you wish that we'd teach folks that are going out into cultural resources?
Essential Field Skills for CRM Archaeologists
00:33:41
Speaker
What are transects and what are what to expect in the field? Like, I mean, we have students that students
00:33:49
Speaker
young adults coming in and they don't have the proper gear. And I know going like going as you in your career, you're going to like, this is what I need. This is what I need. But just like, bring your lunch, bring all that stuff and then teach them maps, like how to navigate. What is CRM basically? Like a lot of students come in, they have no, I keep seeing students, I'm sorry, they're not students, young adults. They come in, they don't know how to read a map. I think that's a skill that's being lost.
00:34:19
Speaker
Definitely. And just how to navigate, triangulate. What is Section 106? I think, Andrew, you now have a CRM class for Saturday. Is it a CRM class? Yeah, it's CRM professionalism, so I go deep dive into Section 106. Yeah, and I was thinking about this the other day. I'm like, maybe for one of your finals, you should have a mock-up site write-up.
00:34:42
Speaker
and have like a nomination for NRHP or like really go into that. So they're kind of prepared and like, I mean, they don't have to hit all that, but like, just like, Oh, this is what crew chiefs do. So they, they have an understanding. It's like, Oh, I get to do this one day and they have a better understanding around the field. And what like for CRM, maybe teaching wise, like what is a site like in terms of CRM because every state's different, right? Yeah.
00:35:08
Speaker
These are great. Yeah. I'm writing this stuff down as you're talking. I'm just like, okay, oh, that's a good one. You know, so this is really helping me out. Yeah, me too. I mean, I built a class that has some of those skills, but now I'm realizing I should cut out some other stuff and expand those sections. Yeah. And then like what we deal with a lot in CRM is lithics. Like that is a big thing. Maybe like introducing some lithic analysis, like have a little like workshop or
00:35:35
Speaker
something like that, like to identify what's a bifaceted flake, or what's a core reduction flake, like stuff like that, like, that will really hone in skills for us and help us out in the long term, because it depends on where you work in the country. But I mean, when you're in the southwest, you're going to see a more ceramics maybe have like a ceramic workshop, if you want to work there, or like, what's a thermal feature? Like, what's the characteristics of that?
00:36:00
Speaker
stuff like that. Yeah, this is great help. You know, sort of a follow up question on the same thing. Is there anything like when you finished even your master's, is there anything you wish you knew personally, like you came out and you're like, damn, I wish I had more experience in this or more skill set in this? Was there like one or two things? Well, the beauty about NAU in Northern Arizona, they had a CRM like class in the upper upper division in law, the professors that were in
00:36:29
Speaker
that we're teaching, we're in the federal government or we're in CRM. So we got a really big skill set. And then we're allowed to go out like with them. And I got a lot of like training with that. And not all universities had that at all. But I would think more of like the things I didn't know when I was in grad school, I wish I knew is like the federal government has a program called Pathways. And I wish I knew that. And Pathways is like an internship program, I think. And
00:36:56
Speaker
basically teaches you what the federal government wants and you could be like a GS5 and then ultimately get like a permanent job. And I didn't know that going in as a student and I wish I did. That's great. You know, right then as you were talking, there's no way in my notes I was writing down federal government pathways. No, no, I was just listening.
00:37:19
Speaker
meaning that this is this is great stuff, right? I have a long list of like, oh, man, I got to get on this. Even the little things you said, like talking about what is a transect, I'm like, oh, man, I got to double down on the transect thing. I mean, I touch on it, but you're right. Like when I think back to my own times in CRM, I'm like, yeah, just how to walk a transect, how to stay in a straight line, you know, how to stay in a straight line with others and not like run into each other, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. And different types of like surveys like block survey versus linear surveys.
00:37:48
Speaker
Right. Like I have a hard time block surveys. I don't know why. That's just me. And I'm, I'm okay to admit that I'm not perfect. All right. Well, Hey, we're nearing the end of this show. Renee, is there anything else you want to tell our listeners about your career choices or anything else? Well, if you want more, you can always reach out to me. Not a problem. I'm always available. Okay. Find me on the Alpine website. Yep. You email me there.
00:38:17
Speaker
But yeah, just keep on keeping on as your Joe dirt would say, life's a garden dig it. And literally, and just last few short to do things you don't love doing. I just stole that, but here we are. You love our theology. Keep doing it. Awesome. Well, that's good advice. And
00:38:39
Speaker
With that, Andrew, thanks for bringing on Renee. This has been really great. Yeah, it's great having her. If anybody else really wants to come on and just kind of tell your story, I mean, it really helps. I think it really helps other people because we all not only kind of came into this from different pathways, but we're all on different journeys, even though it kind of seems the same because there's only a handful of positions really in this field, but it's all different, right? Depending on where you work and what company you work for and everybody's experience is different. So it benefits to let other people know that
00:39:08
Speaker
Things they're experiencing and feeling and going through are similar and other people have done it and yet different enough that you can kind of write your own path if you want to. So with that, we will say goodbye this week and we'll see you guys next time.
00:39:25
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions.
00:39:55
Speaker
We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye, guys. See you guys next time.
00:40:14
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.