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Why Does CRM Pay So Little? - Ep 291
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This week’s episode comes from a listener question. Richard wants to know why archaeologists get paid so little? We give our reasons. Submit your questions at the APN website!
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/291
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
ArchPodNet
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 291 for June 26th, 2024.
Why Are CRM Archaeologists Paid Less?
00:00:28
Speaker
I'm your host, Chris Webster. On today's show, we tell you why CRM archaeologists get paid less than everyone else. So get ready to cancel that Netflix subscription because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome to the show, everyone. Joining me today is Heather in California. Hi, everyone. And Doug in Scotland. Hi, everyone. Well, it's been a minute since I've been on the show. We've been moving every weekend in our ah RV. So it's it's been sometimes we've been in an area on Sunday when we do this recording where we have internet and we're just stopped at a rest area on the ah side of the road. And sometimes we're not. so i kind of have to make the call just like on the day, whether or not I can really join the
Impact of Chris's RV Travels on Podcasting
00:01:18
Speaker
recording or not. and And today I was able to, so I'm i'm glad to to finally be back on it. Once we get over to New England, where we're going to be, we're going to have some slower travel. We're just trying to get there. you know It takes us about a month and a half to cross the country just because we're not trying to do it in a
00:01:33
Speaker
We don't have to do it in a short period of time. So we're taking our time, but we only travel on the weekends because we both work during the week. So that's so that's just a necessary evil for, for how we have to travel. So anyway, I yeah feel like it's been so long that you should probably like for our new listeners, introduce yourself. they'll be Like who who is this person who's talking? yeah He's telling us about his ah RV life. like I know. I know. So if you're just joining us, my name is Chris. I've been with the podcast for a while. No, I'm just kidding. like So yeah, no, you're totally right. It has been a long time. So, but anyway, if you want to know all about me, listen to the previous 290 episodes. Well, at least some of them, if not most of them, not all of them, obviously, but yeah, definitely, definitely some of them.
Listener Concerns About Pay Disparity
00:02:19
Speaker
Okay. Since we are sitting at a rest area on the site of Interstate 75 in Michigan, that we're going to, you know, this probably won't be an hour, but we do have a topic that we're going to talk about today. And it's piggybacking off of, I feel like a couple of subjects that we've had in the last couple of months here. And this was sent in by a listener. So I'm going to read the listener's email and then we're going to have a conversation about it. I'm going to read the whole email and then we'll have a conversation about it. And this is from listener Richard V. I'm not going to i We don't usually say last names just because, you know, we want people to feel like they can comment in, but I want you to know that we read your comments. So feel free to leave us a comment. This was left on our website at arcpodnet.com forward slash Sierra Mark podcast, or you can just use the contact form right on the front page of the website as well. And just to say what podcasts it's for. Some people don't fill that box in. Then it gets frustrating. But please say what podcast it's for and then leave a comment. Or you can leave a comment directly on the episode as well, which is kind of cool. So anyway, Richard writes, hello, long time listener to the arc pod net, but never felt compelled to write until now. He just wanted to say that you're doing a great job on the Sierra Mark podcast. This year you've covered exactly the kind of topics that I want to hear as a perspective archeologist. The latest episode on unions answered some questions I've long had about jobs in CRM, particularly on the lower end of the pay scale.
00:03:42
Speaker
Like Chris, I'm a Navy vet and have supplemental income from disability. I'm not overly concerned about the wages I'll be making right after I graduate. I'll be fine. However, I also spent 15 years in engineering before switching careers. The difference in pay between the fields may as well be different planets from entry level, which is about 100 K for engineers across the country on up to PI. I'm looking at making half the salary I was before, and it's not like it requires less education. The recent episode on pay and CRM didn't answer the question of whether archaeologists are grossly underpaid. The answer is degree for degree, yes. I'm interested in hearing the host discuss a follow-up question. Why? The lack of unions speaks to part of it, but not all. Is the field just totally saturated with starving PhDs? How do we get to the point where it takes a graduate degree to make the same amount I was making as a technician?
00:04:32
Speaker
So, there's a lot there. i mean Basically, he's saying, yes, he's agreeing that the entire field of archaeology is is dramatically underpaid compared to other fields where a degree is required.
Education vs. Pay Debate
00:04:43
Speaker
It's not the same degree, but compared to other fields where a degree is required, where experience is required. i mean It is odd that when you see on job requirements for this field that it says, hey, degree experience, you know four or five years of experience in the field and a degree, sometimes an advanced degree, and and all these other requirements. you know Field school, basically a technical school and an extra school, basically, and yet still you're getting paid $20 an hour or $15 an hour even, or or you know something like that as entry level.
00:05:12
Speaker
and I mean, that is a little bit absurd, but that's what we're going to talk about, Doug. Oh man, this is this is a pet peeve of mine. I'm sure I'm just going to piss everyone off, but yeah, I really have to push back against this idea of like, because it's a tough one. You hear this a lot in archaeology, like anywhere, UK, US, Canada, it's like, oh, you know, for our education, we're we're paid less than, and then of course they choose your like surgeon or you know aerospace engineer or something like that. But I ah really wish we'd get away from this mentality because your degree has almost very little
00:05:53
Speaker
influence on your pay. and That's across all fields. like it's It's a sort of idea in archaeology that like oh you know we we have a degree, so we should be automatically be paid more. and That's not how the world works, and that's not the mechanisms. A degree can affect your pay But it affects your pay in a way of you know a degree can be a barrier to entry. There's enough barrier to entry. You have fewer people working there. you know It's simple economics, supply and demand, and so that can do it.
Factors Influencing Salary Differences
00:06:30
Speaker
But it's not a given. And like you know you can also think of like things that people kind of forget about as teachers. like In a lot of states, in a lot of countries, you need a degree to be a teacher. And yet, their pay is can be worse than archaeologists. yeah And again, another low paying in medical, like you nurses, you have to have a degree, you have to go through all this all this extra stuff. And yet, the pay doesn't... there's There's very low correlation or almost no correlation between a degree, a number of years in school, and your pay. And this is across a bunch of different fields. of course
00:07:09
Speaker
yeah we're We're archaeologists. We only think about archaeology. We only talk about archaeology. But I really wish we would get off of this this way of describing it. Because usually it's it's this complaint like, oh, we don't make enough for our degree. We could go you know work at a supermarket and make more, yadda yada, yada. And it's like, well, then go work at a supermarket if it's about the money. And I know it's going to anger a lot of people, and it's a bit harsh. but I think it holds us back if we're talking about degrees as like a it should automatically give us or the number of years we spend should automatically give us more money. And that is focusing on the wrong thing that's going to change how much we're paid. So I i would say it's sort of a red herring in all these discussions. It's always brought up and no one pushes back. And I think we actually need to push back and say, yes,
00:07:56
Speaker
For investment, it kind of sucks to you know do 10 years of university to not be making a lot of money, especially if you've taken out student loans or in debt by 100 or 200 grand. it's ah It's a poor financial trade-off. But that's not just saying I have a degree, I should be paid more is not how the world works. And that's not how it works in archeology. That's not how it works in any other field. And I think it holds us back. Amen. Amen. Totally agree with you, Doug. And I think
00:08:30
Speaker
i I think that exactly what you're saying, we're doing a disservice when you're going down the wrong argument path because people just will discount you. so that and And on top of that, if you identify the wrong path and the wrong reasoning, you can't solve the problem. So again, we're not saying that people shouldn't be paid more, especially in certain areas of the US, we'll just say specifically. But to say that an archaeologist should make the same amount as an engineer is ah really, if you look at it from a critical standpoint, it does not make sense. First of all, engineers across the board to get into an engineering program, the best engineering programs are very difficult to get into.
00:09:16
Speaker
They require a very high GPA in high school. They require a very competitive package when you're trying to get into that school. So you're getting the better students. it's not the same in archaeology. Archaeology is not that hard to get into. On top of that, it's not. It's just not. I mean, that's, true that's the truth. And it also does not require a very high technical understanding. I mean, um this is somebody who's, I'm an archaeologist, I've been doing this for a long time. And it does not, it certainly
00:09:55
Speaker
You walk out of most programs in this country and you are not prepared to be an archaeologist at all. You walk out of an engineering program and you are prepared for the most part to be. And I've worked for engineering firms and so I have a little bit more understanding of that. It doesn't mean that you know everything, of course not. But there's another component to this and that is The engineers, anytime you have a very specific role, a role that could be, that could put the company in in a high level of liability because you're not technically capable, as capable as others, they're taking a risk. They're willing to pay for high level work, yeah if if that makes sense. And so yeah that I think is and another component of it. They're paid more because for various different reasons, but
00:10:50
Speaker
Anytime you have a company where the work that comes from the employee can be a liability if it's not done right, you're going to get paid more.
Perception of Archaeologists' Value
00:11:00
Speaker
Simple. You know, I've got a comment on that, that I'll say after the break, but also to piggyback off of what both of you guys are saying about degrees, not necessarily equaling more money. I mean, I have a master's degree in, I mean, specifically in archeological resource management, right? But that master's degree doesn't really do anything anywhere else. And I kind of felt that everybody who's a long time listener to the show knows that
00:11:24
Speaker
I kind of fell backwards into a completely different field where I'm doing software implementation. And I have no background in that. I mean, literally no background, no educational background, very little technical background, except for self-taught type of stuff that you know I was working with Wild Note, as everybody knows, and and kind of doing a little bit of software stuff there. But again, mostly just working with them, self-taught, doing different things, and literally no background. But I'm making easily twice as much money as I ever have as an archaeologist at any level as an archaeologist doing this software implementation thing. Now, I'm doing it as a consultant through my own business as a contractor, which is helping. so because you i mean If you do it right, you can make a hell of a lot more money as a contractor than as an employee. But that being said,
00:12:10
Speaker
Like I said, i there's there's a lot of jobs out there that pay a lot more than jobs that require degrees, right? If you just want to if you just want to go find something. So the degree does not not necessarily equal high pay. So I'm just echoing all that. So let's take a break. We're going to have slightly shorter segments today. We'll take a break. And I've got a comment to open with on how smart engineers are back in a minute. Welcome back to the Sierra Mark podcast episode 291. We're talking about Richard's comment, a listener, regarding why archaeologists are paid solo. I just got a comment on something you were saying, Heather, about engineers. and One of the reasons why you're saying that they get paid more is because of their schooling is harder, their schooling is harder to get into, things like that. and While I totally agree with you, I think that the
00:13:01
Speaker
toughness with which it is to get into your schooling is one factor in what your end result is going to be in what you get paid more. I think you were also kind of alluding to the nature of your job right and and what what your risk level is in your job right and what you're going to get paid there too. right and and you know So that's part of it for us, where is the nature of our jobs as archaeological field technicians and crew chiefs and things like that, there isn't a lot of risk at that level. right there's There's a lot more risk at the PI level, of course, because they're the ones putting their names on on big things. And they're the ones that are ultimately assuming the legal responsibility and liability and things like that. So there's a lot more risk there, which is you know they do get paid more. I mean, it's it's a little bit more, but it's not like some high paid engineer. It might be at some companies. But I think the one of the other points is that
00:13:51
Speaker
you can only get paid as much as, and then this is where I think this is really going to come down the line, you can only get paid as much as the project is able to pay you. right and And ultimately, when we're bidding on projects and things like that, nobody wants to pay for what we do. right Nobody wants to pay for this. Everyone wants to pay an architect or an engineer the right amount of money to make sure their bridge doesn't fall over or their building doesn't collapse, right? But nobody wants to pay an archaeologist to dig a bunch of holes and put a bunch of Native American or historical artifacts in a museum. Like literally no one wants to pay for that. ah So we're the lowest, we're literally getting the lowest bid in contracts and it's hard to pay people good salaries when everybody is is fighting for scraps.
00:14:32
Speaker
Yeah, it's an it's a necessary evil and anytime you have a ah you know, a role that's a necessary evil, it's not going to be the same. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing is, is that it's very hard to quantify our role. as archaeologists, you could do you could really mess up an investigation and people are not going to know for a very long time. and right it's true you know It's true and if you really think about the times that an investigation hasn't been done correctly,
00:15:05
Speaker
ah you've hear about it very You hear about it seldom, right, where it's usually people are not they're not doing the mitigation correctly or or or whatnot. I mean, it how a data recovery, if data recovery is done correctly or not, or if an evaluation is done correctly or not, I mean, really, You're the only one that knows what's coming out of the ground. and There's people that could be unethical about stuff. no Nobody's going to see but whether you did it correctly or not. Honestly, I mean, you could fake the data. Can't fake the data with engineering. Right. You can't. Yeah, that's tough.
00:15:41
Speaker
and i mean Heather is taking it right out of my mouth. Exactly. I mean, it comes back to like the, actually our work is incredibly, highly technical. I would actually argue, If you compare it to what we do for engineering, I would say archaeology is actually a much more difficult undertaking and it's it's it's much more skilled undertaking than most other professions that's required. But as Heather's saying, you you're digging and if you don't find something, no one else is going to know. there's there's no That's a huge thing. it's like and that's That's what I'm saying is highly technical as in like, you know, on certain sites.
00:16:22
Speaker
you know, your ability to recognize changes in soil changes and textures, all sorts of things, highly, highly skilled that not everyone can do, especially everyone coming out of university, unless you have several years of experience. But honestly, if you miss an entire, I don't know, pit house, doesn't matter. Cause you're the only one that sees it. And if you didn't see it, it didn't exist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, i would I would push back, Chris, slightly on the whole like, no one wants us. No one wants anything. Like, ah if you've ever talked to like, so we hear it because we're archaeologists.
00:17:03
Speaker
And youll you'll hear the the contractor, the the higher ups and they'll be like, Oh, blah, blah, blah. But then like, you don't hear them also complaining about like, Oh, health and safety, yada, yada. Why do we have to pay so people don't die? And it'll be like, you know, why, why do we have to pay so buildings don't fall over? And so honestly, like everyone gets pushed back. No one, no one wants to pay for anything. yeah you You rarely run into some people who are like, I would actually like to pay for quality across the board. They do exist. You do find them. You also find them paying for archeology because they prefer quality. It's just far and few between. yeah but like that yeah yeah We don't hear it because we're not in engineering things, but think about how many buildings and bridges have collapsed over the years. or I mean, big case in in the UK, I don't know if it made it over to the US, tower block burned down. 70 some people died because they
00:17:58
Speaker
corners and on the panels, they used a more combustible panel because they say she's one pound per square meter. Basically, I think they saved something like least six or 7,000 pounds and killed 70 people because basically they went with just tiniest, cheaper material. so yeah Even in like engineering and fire safety and stuff like that, you do run into people who just do not want to pay for it regardless of they want to make a lot of money and things like health and safety or buildings not falling down or not instantly catching on fire. you know there are There are bad and bad engineers.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. We don't know what kind of engineer Richard was. I don't think, in fact, I know. I know because I live in an area where there's a lot of engineers that work in various companies. I know that not all of them started 100,000, he was saying. So it depends on what kind of engineer he is. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd i don't you know i'd i'd argue that. And maybe maybe what he did, obviously, did make that. but If he was in the Navy, it could have been aerospace or so or something like that. Nuclear you know could have been could have been pretty high paying coming out of the Navy. And and not on top of that, if he was in the Navy, he was working ahead of time. but he was work He did have a career before that, and then he went into the civilian world. We don't know a whole lot about Richard, but it sounds like you know entry level, he wouldve gone he could have gone, or he did entry level, but then he was also working in the Navy for a while.
00:19:30
Speaker
before he did that. So to me, I don't think that's entry level. but Well, he could be speaking to just what he knows of the field as well, not his situation. Who knows? Like you said, we don't know a whole lot. Yeah, but there's a lot of engineers that don't make that much, that don't make a hundred thousand. That's true. That's true. But, you know, not even talking about engineers. I mean, if we're talking about the field that, that I'm currently working in, I mean, entry levels about 60 to 80, I would say, probably give or take without a degree, as long as you know how to do something with software.
00:20:01
Speaker
So anytime when you have something, a job where the client comes to you and they're like, I really want to do this. yeah but I'm thinking about engineers specifically, because I live in California, there's a lot of areas that really should not be built on that people insisting insist on wanting to build there, right? So you need an engineer, a civil engineer who really knows their stuff and and knows how to make that happen for a client. Whenever you have a job where the client wants something,
00:20:32
Speaker
to happen that's not easy to happen, you're going to make more money. we don't In archaeology, if we had a client that came to us bra and said, I want you to not find anything, and I want you to pay more to make that happen, and obviously, that's not ethical. right So we're not in that position. And so the better engineers are the ones that are able to, or the engineers that are willing to take that risk. So there are there are many civil engineer companies, the specifically larger ones, that are not going to take those jobs in, let's say, an area like Pacific Palisades. if You don't know California, but it's right. There's a bunch of bluffs. It's a steep incline in much of the area. Beautiful views. A lot of celebrities live there, and they literally have 30-foot lots and then a steep it ah decline, and they want a house there.
00:21:28
Speaker
And you know, you need somebody who's not only able to make that happen, but also who's willing to take the risk. Yeah. And when you're taking the risk, you're going to get paid more. so Yeah. Yeah. I'd also say, again, people, there's that thing. And yeah, the worst is when people look at like Bureau of Labor management statistics and then they'll look at averages and they'll be like, Oh, the average here and and that, but it's not, It's not true. Like, yeah, lawyers can make a lot, but also, you know, you end up with lawyers who basically do essentially, you know, public defense and they're, you know, quarter, half a million in student loan debt.
Historical Context of Archaeology Wages
00:22:14
Speaker
And they're making about the same wages that I i made entry level in archeology. And yeah, like there's, to it's more complex than just simple that I think actually like,
00:22:28
Speaker
It's an entire topic. There is not going to be one single answer saying, why does archaeologists make less than other things? I think it's very complicated. One thing I'm just going to throw out from the UK. So UK wages and archaeology, actually. So imagine we're two decades behind the US. It wasn't until 1990 that you actually got proper legislation and essentially polluter pays laws. And before that, it was a bit mix of like you know somewhat government funding. Sometimes developers would do it out of the kindness of their hearts. you know It was a hit or miss. But actually, yeah in the last 30 years, wages have gone up at least. and And this is above inflation. So accounting for inflation, 50%. So you know i mean it was actually, they're still not the greatest where you know entry level puts you at the basically the
00:23:23
Speaker
the median wage in the UK, 50% make more, 50% less, but that's not the worst of wages. It went up, but like actually, if you look at the early wages in the 1990s, again, the UK behind on some things, they didn't have a minimum wage. I think don't think it came into the late 90s, early aughts, but you know adjusted for inflation, you couldn't actually pay archaeologists the low wages you paid in the 1990s. because it would be below the legal limit. Pay was really bad. and Part of that problem, ah literally this was a conversation I maybe had a week or two ago, was with one of the companies. and They're talking about you the early days. They were there you know in the 1990s when they were first doing the first bids. and they They were bidding for a project. They won it. and They're like, yeah, yeah you know we we went back for feedback. and we're like yo We bid $5,000. The next highest bid was, and they named another company who I'm not going to name.
00:24:18
Speaker
And I said, yeah yeah, they were at like six and a half grand. We did it for five. And then the, the firm came back to him and said, yeah, we had budgeted 150 for this work and you came in at five. So we now know how much we will charge for archeology in the future. And and we've done this and and you can look at your back. A lot of it is in negotiation, it's called an an anchor. so you always see you know like You always see those lawsuits where they're like, oh, they're suing them for 100 million or something like that. They don't expect to get 100 million, but if you throw in a really high number or a really low number, it puts the onus on the other side to sort of fight back and drag that you know the negotiations back. so If you know you say 100 million, well, they're not going to counter with 500 bucks. They're going to be like, oh, wella well, we'll counter with 5 million because that's that's less.
00:25:15
Speaker
You were looking for 5 million anyway, so you're happy with that. Archaeology, a lot of the issues we have is, you know, 60s and 70s in the US, 1990s in the UK, and you know pick wherever decade it is or year it happens in any other country. Almost every time and everywhere I've seen, I'm sure there's exceptions to this, basically, archaeologists threw out wages and rates that were so ridiculously low. that we've basically thrown an anchor around our our our entire profession that we've been trying to drag ourselves back from for decades. Because they they basically put out an a amount that's criminally low. And then everyone's like, well, that's where it's charged. That's the rates. And then if they get anything higher, they're like, well, I know I can find another archaeologist who did it lower. And then you know obviously, it's competitive bidding, so all archaeologists are not there. So one of the problems we have is you know
00:26:08
Speaker
When archeologists first started out, they were not business people. They were doing it for the love of it. And there's still not a large majority still aren't. Yeah. I'm trying to be nice to Heather. yeah i've tried do nice yeah but Yes. And yeah, people, will people thought still, people don't know how to calculate a day rate. They don't know how to calculate any, all we probably need to end this segment, but it's for another thing. But yeah, like archeologists have criminally turned it to themselves and we've been trying to dig out of a hole. Oh man. I feel like a horrible pun there, but you know, for decades from basically that when we started doing our first tendering and basically people were tending like, Oh yeah. I mean, I was just in the seventies a bit. Yeah. You know, 500 acres. Yeah. We'll do that for 500 bucks. And we're like, Oh man. And that's the, that's what we're dealing with. Yeah. All right. Well, let's find out why you deserve to be in that hole because you're an artist on the other side of the break.
Passion vs. Pay in Professions
00:27:07
Speaker
Welcome back to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 291. And we're talking about why archaeologists get paid so little. And one of the things that hasn't been said, although Bill, who couldn't join us today, was commenting on our on our Slack channel. about passion. And everybody always talks about, oh, you know a lot of a lot of the reasons why you might not get paid as much in this field is because it's you know it's treated like a passion and you should be just lucky to have a job and and you you love being an archaeologist. and And because of that, you should be happy to be here and not care about how much you get paid and because that's you know that's where you want to be. It's ah it's your passion in life. Well, I'll tell you what.
00:27:46
Speaker
I bet a lot of people in engineers, since we're picking on engineers today, really freaking love what they do, right? They just like huge math nerds. They love what they do. Architects love what they do. There's there's a lot of people out there that really, really love what they do. And they also get paid a crap ton of money. i mean there's not a There's not a correlation between, I have a passion for what I'm doing and I'm paid like garbage. right That's not a correlation. It's just like we were saying at the beginning of the show, just because you have a degree, you get paid a lot of money. One does not equal the other. Correlation does not equal causation. That's a logical fallacy.
00:28:20
Speaker
passion does not equal low pay in your job. right i mean i I happen to really like the thing that I'm doing right now. It's problem solving, it's you know it's working with people, it's doing a lot of cool things that I really like. I have to be getting paid pretty decent money for it as well. If I wasn't, would I keep doing it? I don't know. right If I won the lottery tomorrow, would I keep doing it? Probably not, but you know that there it is. so but That's where it is. So what do you guys think about passion before we really go into licensing and things like that?
Job Availability and Financial Success in Archaeology
00:28:51
Speaker
Yeah, I yeah i agree with you on that. Yeah. the I mean, I work with engineers. They're very passionate about what they do. They love what they do. Nurses, doctors, even attorneys, they love what they do. There's oh yeah a lot of people that, you know, get paid well and very much enjoy what they do. So yeah, I don't i don't think that that is a, yeah, I don't think that's a really good argument.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah. i think I think it, well, one, I agree with you guys, but I do think it does make a slight difference, but it makes a difference in the minds of archaeologists. You're willing to put up with a lot more. Well, no, it's a whole societal thing. It's like how we view ourselves. And a lot of people view archaeologists as the starving artists. um And you've been, of course, everyone's been told that. you've You've been told like in university, oh, you know, I can make a lot of money, even though, you know, there's millionaire archaeologists. There's not that many. Well, you're proportionate, like honestly. like so but there's not How many millionaire engineers do you have? Really? Well, also, like yeah archaeology is kind of small. you know In the US, there might be 10,000 to 12,000, UK 6,000. These are absolutely tiny amounts compared to you know engineers. it's It's proportionate and it's like any other field
00:30:09
Speaker
It's a giant pyramid. At the top, you have the really rich. At the bottom, you have a lot of people basically starving, but that's that's across all fields. and I think a problem is is, again, I totally agree, correlation, causation, you know there's lots of people have passion and can make a lot of money. but there's a I find this all with a lot of archaeologists who they use it as an excuse to to detrimental things to both themselves and the sector. In a sense, they'll be like, oh, well, I'm passionate. So I'll take this job that's you know paying 20% under what I was making earlier because I really want to do it. And that drives wages down. And you know I actually do think, God, I can't believe I would say this. But you know there is something to those people who are like,
00:31:04
Speaker
manifesting rich richness and stuff like that. It does have effect where if you constantly think there's no money in archaeology, you will accept less because you're like, oh, this is it. i've i've seen yeah I've seen lots of presentations where people talk about their careers and and every single one of them, everyone's like, oh, I was so lucky. I was so lucky. no Everyone talks about you know how they got a good paying consultant job and how they're making good money and stuff. and There's like this sense of guilt that a lot of archaeologists have, if they make money, that they feel guilty about it and it holds us back as a profession within such horror, self-viewing, or I don't know how to describe this, but you know how how we view ourselves and how we think about you know what we should do and what we what we deserve. you know People will accept a lot less in archaeology because they believe they're a starving artist, whereas you know in other fields,
00:32:01
Speaker
I think they probably still have similar issues, but it's not as bad as it is in archaeology. Yeah. It's ingrained, though, in people. you know i I went to a school where a lot of people came out of that school and had work. They they got jobs. And I bet if right now we could see all you know the hands of the people that are listening, I said, how many of you were told when you were in school that you were not going to be able to find a job? That it's almost going to be impossible for you to find a job. Or you can find a job. but you're never gonna find a good job. So I was told that, especially, I think it's maybe a little different now, but I was told that when I was in school and I was like, okay, well, that doesn't make any sense to me. And so I didn't believe it. I was like, that's not true. I can't find a job and I'm gonna pursue that. I'm gonna find a job. I'm gonna find a good job. I'm gonna find a full-time job. I was told I was gonna find a full-time job. Then I'm told,
00:32:58
Speaker
that I wasn't gonna make a decent wage, which is not true. In fact, right out of the bat, one of my first full-time jobs, I was making a decent amount of money. Now, there's some luck to that and being in the the right place, but I do agree with you. i think I don't think it's this existential, you know, you're manifesting success. I do think that if you have that attitude that you are going to find something That attracts success. It does attract. Yeah, it attracts success. And then I think the the other thing, one of the other arguments is.
00:33:33
Speaker
that we put our bodies through so much. And that's one of the other arguments. We should be paid for abusing our bodies. Well, really, you should be doing manual labor as an archaeologist. You are going to be doing that as an archaeologist. But as you climb up the ranks, you're going to be doing less and less of that. So if you're working and you've been working as an ah yeaha archaeologist for 30 years and you're still doing very hard labor on and you know beating your body up, But it's either a choice where you really just, that's what you want to do. You want to be in the field and there's some people like that and that's great, but that doesn't have to be that way. yeah So i that, I don't agree with that argument at all. I would also say like just to to loop back to the archaeology small.
00:34:21
Speaker
Part of the issue is also supply and demand in that, like yeah, we're a small field, but we also overproduce, as Richard it said, you know way too many PhDs, way too many masters, ah way too many, I would say undergraduate degrees. I don't think you start out, I don't think you actually need a degree to start archeology. The skills you need are not skills that you can really, well are well taught at university or most universities. but like I mean, there's that, I think, Auschwitz-Klein paper out there. It's like, you know, a big boost of things. We're going to be short on archaeologists. We're not. The calculations are off about
00:35:01
Speaker
50% of anthropology master's students are actually archeology degrees. We have a lot of studies we overproduce. and This is the same in the UK with less less jobs. They produce twice as many PhDs in archeology. It's about 200 a year. The US is maybe about 100, 125. There's only like 6,000 archeologists in the UK where there's 12,000 and the US. It's even worse in other countries, but it's massive overproduction of supply. and even i mean We've talked about you know engineers need to be smarter. I think we've also gone back and forth a bit about you know that's not always the case. There's plenty of engineers who underachieve as well. But degree per job opening, the ratio is much better. and A lot of those things where people are like high you know high paid positions,
00:35:55
Speaker
the ratio is there or there is barriers to entry. I think we talked about this, was it the last podcast or the podcast before? Stephen's a shovel, a truck, and a person. That's all you need to start an archeology firm in most places. Western states, there's some permitting and licensing. What do you know? It's about 25% difference in wages from east of Mississippi versus west where there's more BLM, more federal land, more requirements to have you know a permit, which is basically a barrier to entry. And when I'm saying you know more, I'm not counting California or Alaska where cost of living shoots that through the roof. I'm talking you know Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah. you know You're making you know five or six, sometimes like eight buck bucks more an hour as a field tech than you would if you're in like Virginia or Rhode Island or someplace like that. So there there are other things that
00:36:54
Speaker
ah affect wages. And one of those is barriers to entry. And there's a whole range you know from degrees to actually being able to do the work, to being able to bid on more on the work, to being able to get staff.
Licensing and Barriers to Entry
00:37:06
Speaker
you know I don't think we have enough time to cover every possible way to do it. But you know that's a lot of those things that get paid to high high wages. There's barriers to entry. Lawyers get paid high wages, not because, well, I think there is a value in that you you're willing to pay more because you will actually want a really good lawyer. But there's a bar. Every state sets a – they basically can decide who's a lawyer. Medical, there's a medical boards. Again, they they've they've done barriers to entry. Hair salons, depending on your state, you can get make really good wages because you have to have a license to do that. It constrains supply. and it's I don't know, we're going back to like the basics of economics. and It's like Economics 101, supply and demand. and
00:37:51
Speaker
We always have a huge supply of people wanting to do archaeology and not a very high demand. And the wages tend to reflect that. And and just because engineering was this this the comparison that we've been using from the beginning, because of Richard, you know, engineers have different licenses. And as you progress in your career, you have you get new licenses. So you're increasing, you have continuing education. you're increasing your capabilities and your level of capability. So, you know, we don't have that in archaeology, and that would be kind of a difficult thing to do in archaeology, although I do think it's possible. But, you know, RPA, I do think
00:38:37
Speaker
I think you know we're not going to go into the rpa question, but our page is not a license period. It's not so again. I mean, before we end this, I definitely want. To say this isn't us saying we don't think that archaeologists should make more. We do. I think we all do. But when we are going down the wrong argument, ah you're shooting yourself in the foot. Number one, you're not going to have you know people are not going to respect your argument because it doesn't make any sense. And number two, you're distracting yourself from what you should be doing to improve certain aspects of your capabilities and the energy that you put forth to get that better job.
00:39:20
Speaker
when you are hanging your hat on a fallacy, you're not doing yourself any favors. And so, yeah, I think it's important, you know especially with the this movement towards unionizing. I think Doug did an incredible job explaining to us the nuances of the union and understanding that it's not everything that people think it is. And just across the board, if you want to better yourself, if you want better conditions, you have to be honest and you really have to be walking down the right path in order to make that happen.
00:39:55
Speaker
and yeah All right. Well, Richard, I don't know if we answered all your questions or not, but hopefully you've got, uh, enough passion to stick it out in this field and enough VA disability to, uh, be able to afford it. So that's, that's, that's where we're at. I mean, you can make money in this business though. You can make that's ah another fallacy. It's a fallacy. You can make good money in this business. Is it going to happen when you enter an entry level? No, it's not. Although you can see. There are certain areas you can get paid more than others, obviously. And but and if you hold yourself a certain way or you you are professional and you work for the right company, all those things align, you can make a good amount of money, but a decent amount of money even starting out. But you can certainly make, yeah, that's a fallacy. You can make good money in archaeology. And and this this works for other professions as well. I mean, we all, we have blinders on where we think it's just archaeology.
Career Mobility and Pay Improvement
00:40:54
Speaker
But also like people move around different professions, you move to different jobs. And that is something that like, you know, lots of papers prove it is like, if you're able to move, I say able because not everyone able is, but even able to move inside, you know, your town to a different job. And if that's not archeology, that's how people make money is actually being able to jump around. And I've seen people who literally leave archeology, go into like management somewhere else, come back into archeology at a much higher level. making decent enough money because they've gone in and got management experience, yeah um, and done that. And there's, there's, yeah, there's a lot, we probably should do that like an episode two on this, but yeah, like that's something is like being able to move around and not, oh, I said move around is like both your physical location, but also within your career, within your position. And that makes a huge difference. And that makes, yeah you know, we've said it is like, you know,
00:41:52
Speaker
That makes a big difference elsewhere. it's like You can also jump across to a different profession and make decent money, whereas people at the bottom of that profession might be making really, really poor money. and that's that's i mean That's how the world is. is We're almost a pyramid. you know, bottom, less pay, top, very good pay, and you're trying to work your way up, and sometimes you could do that in archaeology, and sometimes you have to jump around to different fields and take different paths to work your way up. Indeed. All right. Well, with that, send in your comments, send in your questions. Again, you can go to artpodnet.com and just use the contact form on the website, or you can comment on a specific episode by just clicking on the link in the show notes and going to the episode. So with that, we'll see you guys next time.
Episode Conclusion and Listener Appreciation
00:42:42
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM archaeology podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet.com slash crmarcpodcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question in on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website, or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at archpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions. We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. Thanks everyone for listening, and thanks Richard for sending in your comments. I don't know what Doug's going to do. He keeps it chill when I'm gone, but now that I'm here,
00:43:31
Speaker
I know. I'm debating the the outro I was going to do. know I think I'm just going to rip off Heathers and be like, thanks again, Richard, for sending in this comment. It's actually really appreciated because, yeah, we don't actually get a lot of comments. Indeed. This is something to think about. Nice to know somebody's going to say, too. It's good. Long time listener. That's nice to hear. It's a good challenge for us as well. So if anyone else has anything else they want to challenge us on.
00:44:09
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.