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What's your end game, final job and retirement? - Ep 299
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What’s your plan? Do you have a plan for retirement? We don’t just mean financially. What do you want to do when you “grow up” in archaeology or cultural resources management? Do you want to teach? Do you want to run a company? Where do you see yourself in 25 years? We ask, and answer, the tough questions on this week’s episode.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/299
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
ArchPodNet
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:06
Speaker
This is the CRM Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 299 for October 16th, 2024. I'm your host, Chris Webster. On today's show, we talk about your retirement end game. What does the end of your career look like? So check out your 401k because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:47
Speaker
Welcome to the show, everyone. Joining me today is Heather in Southern California. Hi, everyone. Bill in Northern California. Hello. and Doug in Scotland. Hey, everyone. All right. Well, this is kind of my penultimate episode, if you will. Next episode will be my last, episode number 300. I am exiting the show. And I don't know if this is just luck of the draw or what, but I feel like I'm retiring from the episode. And that is sort of the you know theme of today's episode. But I think that's just i think that's just a coincidence. But Doug, why don't you go ahead and introduce the topic for today?
00:01:25
Speaker
Yeah, real quick first. Berkeley, isn't that like central California, or is that really considered northern California? You know, I'm new to California, so I never know where the line is. They're just like, there's LA, and then everything north of that is northern California. You're like, whoa, okay, really? Because it's still 300 miles of state above, you know, yeah above. Where's the line?
00:01:48
Speaker
but Southern California, Central Coast, I think starts near northern Santa Barbara. And then and then you have Central Coast, which and then you have northern and I think Central Coast probably it's not that big, though. It kind of goes up to maybe.
00:02:06
Speaker
You know. ands like And Bay Area is kind of its own thing, isn't it? yeah bay area Just kind of like the Bay Area. It's not really northern central. It's just the Bay Area. Yeah. And while while while Heather was explaining it, I was also like Googling a map of California to see where Santa Barbara is. Because when you live in the Bay Area, you don't know anything like you don't know where anything's at. I think outside of here somewhere is San Diego and Disneyland. That's it.
00:02:32
Speaker
And Yosemite is close to New York. It's like over there. Right. And wine. Somewhere outside is wine. People are like, I live somewhere. I'm like using my phone. Where's that? Is that in California? Yeah, it is. Nice. Nice. All right, Doug, what are we talking about?
00:02:47
Speaker
Well, obviously it's not a geography lesson this time, but yeah, so we're talking about the end game for people. So, you know, there's there's two versions of that. We'll probably hit in the first segment. The first one is, what's your guys' as sort of career end games? What are you looking at?
00:03:05
Speaker
to sort of, you know, your end of your career or, you know, were you topping out at or how, how are you planning on ending your career as it were? And so that'll be our first topic. And then next one will be after that is, you know, retirement after your career is over. How are you going about preparing for retirement? And no one's allowed to do the cop out of, Oh, I'll never, we'll never retire. Yeah. Everyone's going to have to try at some point or die. you know, one or the other, but it's it's that conversation and how you do that in archaeology. So I'll throw it out to you guys first. Well, Chris, since you're not going to be with us very much longer and you've slightly sort of moved a bit out of archaeology. yeah and It'd be interesting to hear, yeah, what's what's your plans for the next 20-ish years of of your career left? Are you planning to retire sooner soon than that? Is that why you're leaving archaeology?
00:04:05
Speaker
Well, here's the thing. you know i was always well let me Let me back up. When I was in the Navy, I had some wise words from a division chief who he told me something that I've thought about like literally everywhere I've gone, everything I've done ah for the rest of my life. like every ever since Ever since I was 18 years old when he first told me this, he said,
00:04:29
Speaker
look at the people who are doing the thing that you would be doing in whatever job you're doing right now, look at where they're at, where you would be in 20 years, and ask yourself if that's where you want to be. And it is amazing advice when you sit and think about it. if you' If you're just sitting there in an archeology job right now, and you're looking at the people that have been doing the thing that you're doing right now, and they've been there for 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, they're at the end of their career, ask yourself if that's who you want to be.
00:04:57
Speaker
Ashley, if that's where you want to be. And I'll tell you what, um most of the time the answer is no, that's not where I want to be. and that's And that's, you know, I've always wanted, I've always looked at the archaeology lifestyle and profession and just like all the opportunities that you could do as an archaeologist, right? Not just CRM, not just all the stuff in CRM.
00:05:20
Speaker
But like what are all the opportunities that could be presented to you? And the things that I was attracted to were always like teaching. you know But I don't have the credentials to be ah to be a professor. I'd have to go back and get a doctorate probably, something like that, which I'm not necessarily opposed to. but you know And I'm going to be 50 next year in April.
00:05:38
Speaker
But a lot of my professors in college were just fresh out of their doctorate and they were in their 50s, right? So that's not out of the realm of possibility. But you know I don't see myself in CRM in a retirement capacity. It's just not a career that interests me in ah in a retirement age setting. You know what I mean? CRM is for I feel like the younger, the the first part of your career, whether that's whether you're young actually, or the young in from a career sense, if you came to CRM late in your career, like I did, I started in my thirties, late twenties, early thirties. I feel like that was a young part of my career, right? Young from not from an age standpoint, but from a career standpoint. So I did it. I did it for 15 years, right? Got a master's degree, did the whole thing. You know, ran projects, ran half a million million dollar projects.
00:06:24
Speaker
I'm fine. I ran row reports, I've led projects, I had crews, had employees, still have some employees do stuff. And then I started looking around and saying, this isn't really what I want to do. So what else can I do? And that's when the the podcasting stuff was really you know ah interesting me, the educational aspect that I could do.
00:06:43
Speaker
And that's when I really kind of jumped into the archaeology podcast network. Now, that's not really making any money, right? I mean, it does make some money, but it doesn't make any enough money to even support its own self, right? It's spending more money than it's making, which is fine because I can support it with my other work. so But someday it might make money, right, if we can continue this thing to to keep it going. And we have a number of really good volunteers. And some of them are getting paid. Some of them are paid like stipend type positions. So that's really cool that we're able to to do that kind of thing. but That's really what I enjoy doing. And if I can keep the archeology podcast network going, and if I can keep that educational side of things going, we have a lot more things that we want to do. We've just launched four more new shows in the last month and a half. We want to launch more shows every six months or so. If we can, hopefully my editor's not listening to this because I'm going to have to buy a new editor. She's going to reach over and slap me in the face if she heard this. but if i and
00:07:35
Speaker
If we can keep that going and then some of the other educational things we want to do and really keep the Teaching and education not just educating archaeologists, but educating other people now teaching the world about archaeology through this medium That's really what I like. That's what I want to do and I think that's what retirement means for me is just keeping something like this going and Whether or not that actually makes money. I might have to keep doing something else, but I don't know retirement doesn't always mean you're living off money you made before it just means Are you happy and can you eat and sleep and not have to do it on the street? that's that's kind of how see retirement So that's what it means for me. I don't know. I was going to say, you're already a nomad anyway, right? So i already love we we know you're not going to be on the street. Yeah. You live in your car. So we already know that's not going to happen. Yeah. I'm glad this came up. I i'm kind of, I wish I had done the calculations in advance because pretty much I spend almost every single day waiting to retire.
00:08:34
Speaker
ah With every faculty meeting, with every engagement with my colleagues, with every single thing, every protest and every single strike, I pretty much am ready to retire, you know. And you know, there's a couple of things I have a family and everything. so just walking away without something prepared in advance. That's not a possibility. I owe student loans that could be forgiven, you know, if everything works out well and I work for the government. So, you know, that's definitely a piece of it. And I actually work in a job that has a pension plan which is beyond
00:09:07
Speaker
ah unique So, you know, for me, I'm just kind of like looking at the hourglass and just like Chris was saying, it is, I do not want to be anything like the people who have been here for decades. I mean, I've, I'm talking about across the entire university, I do not want to be like the people who have been here, ah you know, in their 60s. I do not want to be anywhere near a university as far as being a professor. When I'm that old, there's no way.
00:09:33
Speaker
And like, I'm just trying to find some kind of pathway out. I also have come back around to the whole blogging thing for just mental health, but also some kind of way to express myself and to connect with other people outside of here. Because when you're there, like, I mean, you said something about being a professor. I would, there's a certain kind of person who really should be a professor that I would, I don't think, you know, you really cut out for it, Chris. I don't know what to say. Like, I don't think you'd put up with the stuff. I don't think you'd put up with it, you know, and I don't want it. I don't want to characterize anyone who, you know, wants to become a professor or whatever, but when you get in here, you're going to, you'll see, you'll see that there is a certain kind of person that is cut out to be a professor. And I always feel like I'm the, you know, oddball. I'm out in the corner, right? Like every one of my ideas, even though at a company, it would be entertained and probably turn things around and make profit is seen as like, you know, an idiotic statement. Why would you say that? And I'm like, cause I'm thinking about this from a business perspective and you're thinking about it from some kind of weird
00:10:33
Speaker
you know, belly full of laced Kool-Aid perspective that you don't see the actual world in the financial game that's going on here on campus. And so, uh, you know, I'm, I'm always out in the cold. It's good for you to say that Bill, because everybody has this romantic view of college, college professorship that's given to them by movies, right? It's not all walking around the, the, the Ivy halls, right? And, and the students in and around it's, it's politics. Right. like There's there's literally a granite tower. There is actually, in fact, a granite ivory colored tower here at the place where I work. That's the tallest thing on campus. You can see it from miles away. Yeah. Yeah. I think I would have fun standing in front of a classroom full of students teaching a class. It's all the bullshit outside of that 50 minutes. That would suck. Right. Well, and it's also the core, the dirty rotten core of academia in general. Yeah. People people are coming to improve their lives.
00:11:26
Speaker
and the university system is eating them, right? Like charging these exorbitant fees, constantly figuring out room for growth. Like why would a university be aimed towards growth? Like why was growth a thing for a university? Like why are there investment bonds in unit public universities, right? It's so that they can be run like businesses. And so people show up and they want to learn, but then also there's nothing to actually compel any instructor to really teach you job skills.
00:11:53
Speaker
And so there will be some some who will teach you some things that you can use in, you know, in a career or they'll be thinking about the fact that you're not going to be an archaeologist, that you're going to be doing something else, right? So, like, there are some who will think that way, but the majority are just so caught up in their own ideas and plans and other things, you know, that that they just can't even talk to you as a human. Like, they're not able. They never worked in their lives before in industries anyway, so there's no way they can really teach you. And then finally, like,
00:12:23
Speaker
there's also a certain level of like unpaid service that's absolutely accepted at the university level. Like they just accept that when they pay you salary, you won't sleep. You'll do all this extra work. Meanwhile, the people at the very top get paid, you know, half a million dollars, 1.7 million. You're getting paid enough to barely scrape by and you're supposed to work all day and all night, right? So I would just say like academia, it is what it is. It's a job just like everything else.
00:12:48
Speaker
give them nine to five and the rest of it can just, you know, goes you go in the waste bin and count your pennies till retirement. So for any new listeners, Bill recently got tenure and thus is not able to have conversations like this. All the episodes before this, I kept my mouth shut. But now, now that it's official, I can actually tell you a little bit about the reality of working in academia. Oh my God.
00:13:17
Speaker
All right. Well, on that cheery note, let's take a break, you know, go get a drink. It's nine 30 in the morning for these guys. I think they need a drink by now. Except for Doug, who can, you know, it's the evening, but, uh, anyway, let's take a break. We'll be back and see what Heather and Doug think about this on the other side back in a minute.
00:13:33
Speaker
Welcome back to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 299. And we're talking about your retirement end game. So Heather, I know you had some comments at the end of the last segment, so let's see what you think about all this. Chris, we just talked about throwing the bill real quick to see his end and then Heather.
00:13:49
Speaker
oh yeah sorry we really like less than a minute ago had this conversation i don't even know i'd like i just a short timer now at this point so yeah teas he's gone yeah So, as Bill desperately pulls an Indiana Jones, is running out of Berkeley with a ah rolling boulder behind him.
00:14:12
Speaker
everywhere Yeah, yeah. where' Where's that plane that's going to pick you up and take you away, Bill? What's yeah what's your sort of end game? Yeah. So, I mean, i I plan on like, you know, well, I guess the plan is first of all, pay off debt because I owe a lot for my student loan still. So, you know, when those are forgiven, then that's, you know, a huge weight off my back. My kids, my daughters in sixth grade right now. So I still have several years of her going through school and everything. My son is just starting high school. So those guys are moving through their thing and I definitely just kind of want to keep it flowing, you know, do my best and keep doing what I've been doing. Do a good job until those guys are out of school and and my student loans are forgiven or paid off.
00:14:56
Speaker
And then i I think, you know, I'll still have a few more years before I'm eligible for early retirement. And so the idea is just to really kind of pay off debt and to, you know, get something else going, you know, in the summers on the side that can grow into a career where part of my bills are covered and my health care is covered by my pension. And then I get another job and the other job, you know, could be more cultural resources. I've also thought about, you know, once my kids are adults, then it's not the same thing that I have to be here all the time. and My wife works fully remote right now. so you know We've thought about doing things like doing history tours and tours around the world, going and living in other countries. I can still teach. I'll teach online still for several universities. They pay by the class. and so That can always supplement some income. and so Basically, just you know around 55 or so, start thinking about just you know turning it down.
00:15:47
Speaker
keep keep doing archeology, but just on my terms then, you know not necessarily worrying so much about like if I'm a PI and I get laid off, then whatever. if i Because I'll have several different jobs, right? Right. Cool.
00:16:03
Speaker
Heather, I imagine since you don't have tenure, you have a slightly different conversation, but what's what's your end game? Wow. You know, it's it's funny because I actually, ah I believe in the same tenant that Chris mentioned with, you know, look at where you're at right now. Look at the people that are at least touted as being, you know, 15 years, 20 years ahead of you, even 10 years ahead of you. And is that where you want to be? I do believe that, tenant, but I think that you need to be a little, yeah, take some license with it. And I've done that throughout my career. So I haven't just looked at, like if I had looked at somebody and i saw I saw them, they have been doing it for 15 years, I would look at that and say, is that something I want? But I would also then say,
00:16:53
Speaker
how could I change that for myself? like do i Is that really my future? right and so then i would look at which Which I think Chris has done with his own career. right And it isn't that I would look at it and say, okay, no, i I don't want CRM because this is what he thinks ahead of me. I would say, okay if I still want to stay in CRM, what do I have to do in order to for that 15 year you know look ahead to be something I really want to strive for? And so it's a little different when you're at a larger company or an environmental firm, you're not just in CRM. And so if you are working currently for listeners in just the CRM firm, for some people that
00:17:37
Speaker
you know that look ahead it' somebody who's been there a lot longer than you looks good that's what you want but if it doesn't don't let it dissuade you from staying in crm because there's different versions of crm you can have crm within a larger environmental. Company and i think sometimes it gets a bad rap when it really.
00:17:56
Speaker
isn't always the truth. So, you know, for me personally, I looked at it and said, okay, yes, I want to be an archaeologist. I do want to stay on CRM, but what are some aspects that I want to now start focusing on? What do I enjoy? And for me, that is what has helped me progress in my career and look and that's how I look at what my next steps are ahead and my end game is. And for me, my end game is more from the business perspective and taking CRM to new innovative spots, right? met Maybe not even areas that are
00:18:35
Speaker
you know, the people are seeing regularly in CRM at all. And so my end game is that i I would like to finish my career knowing that I made a significant impact on CRM in general. And as far as monetarily goes, just continue to make sure that I pay off the debt that I have, stay debt free. And then every bit, every time, the one thing that I think is helpful just from a financial perspective,
00:19:06
Speaker
If you get promoted and you get a significant bump, the first thing you need to do is pay off your debt with that significant bump. Assume you still are being paid what you were paid before. And I know this is basic, but I think people need to be be reminded of it. Otherwise, you it will be very difficult for you to retire when you want to. And while you're young and still able to go and have fun with your free time. So, you know, every time you get promoted, do an assessment. What I was getting paid before, what can I do with this extra chunk of money?
00:19:35
Speaker
And number one, it should go to debt. Number two, it should go to savings and investment and three into investments. And so that's what I've done. Every time I'm being bumped up, I get paid more money. I'm focusing on those three things, setting myself up so that when it does get to that time where I'm ready to retire that I can do that.
00:19:57
Speaker
Anybody who really knows me well knows I will probably never fully retire. I'm not somebody who's just not in me. I have to engage and be engaged in some some kind of you know new endeavor. And so what that will look like, I have an idea now of what it might look like, but it will change.
00:20:18
Speaker
my career, yeah like what, how I started in my career is totally different. That's another thing that I would say to people is just, just be willing to adjust your goals and your, and, and your desires, because as you, you know, progress in your career, you'll be introduced to some other things that you would never even dreamed of.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's probably sort of the name of the game with this field to begin with is keeping your opportunities open. You know what I mean? You never know what's going to come down the line. You might even think, Hey, as I'm getting out of college or something like that, I have an exact idea of what this means to be an archeologist and what my career looks like. But that is a hundred percent going to change probably every year you're in archeology for the first like five years, maybe even 10 years. And.
00:21:07
Speaker
Who knows? Maybe you're not even going to be in archaeology in 10 years. And don't let that scare you, because that might actually be a good thing. You know what I mean? Because you have to keep your opportunities and your your idea for what an opportunity even means open. And that opportunity might even be getting out of archaeology, like the current thing I'm doing right now.
00:21:26
Speaker
that's paying all my bills and and paying me probably 10 times whatever got paid in archaeology. And it's not about money. It's definitely not about money. But I really, really, really enjoy what I'm doing right now, right? The thing that is paying all my bills, affording me the lifestyle that I'm doing right now, and and and allowing my wife and I to do what we're doing, and incidentally funding our ability to do the Archaeology Podcast Network right now, is is is also incredibly challenging work. I really enjoy the problem solving aspect of it. the it's It's a really challenging thing and that's why I like it. it's not just It's not just something I'm doing to make money, you know what I mean? And it's like some soul sucking sort of deal. If it was, I wouldn't be doing it.
00:22:07
Speaker
honestly, but I like doing it. Well, ultimately it's software implementation, which doesn't sound very doesn't sound very exciting, but it's this safety software implementation thing. And I'm dealing with clients from around the world and it's long-term implementations where they basically I work with them on a weekly basis to take their requirements and develop this and develop this software with them and teach them how to use it and teach them how to how to implement it and solve problems. you know They say, hey, we want to do this. I'm like, great, let's see if we can do it and let's build something together.
00:22:39
Speaker
and teach them how to do it, and it's pretty it's pretty great. and actually I actually take a lot of what I learned in archaeology, usually working on mine sites and and different things like that, and going through safety orientation classes and all these different things is incredibly helpful to help speak the same language, because it's it's very safety-oriented software, although we build lots of different things. but I kind of fell backwards into it because of being in archaeology too, because of my experience with digital archaeology and working with WildNote and Codify and and different things. I had those software implementation and development skills that sort of had me fall backwards into this thing where I met a guy working in my co-working space in in Reno and
00:23:20
Speaker
then I just kind of started doing more and more of this. It turns out it pays ridiculously well, and I enjoy it, just and I can do it from anywhere. so It's paying for basically everything that we do, and and it's and it's really fun. and I've turned a side business out of this thing. I've got i've got a side business working with clients who've gone, we say, go live after their implementation is over.
00:23:43
Speaker
I've got what I call a post-go live service with these clients because the the company just simply kind of turns them loose after they're live and doesn't have any support for them afterwards. so I created a support company for them and now I'm doing that too. so I really enjoy it. I enjoy it.
00:23:58
Speaker
so But like I said, who knew that opportunity existed five years ago? I'm glad you mentioned that about you know not knowing where your trail is going to lead because yeah you know i didn't I didn't think I'd have the job that I have either. And folks who are listening, you know while I did say stuff about higher education, it's never going to get better unless people from CRM get PhDs and get hired in tenure track positions, right? Because I'm i'm starting to realize that ah CRM will continue saying that they want people to be trained and they want all this other stuff, but they're perfectly happy in my experience to just keep training people on the job because no one's willing to actually put the money and the time and the effort into getting ah university programs to train people to do cultural resources, right? So overall, thousands of people end up graduating with without even knowing what CRM is every single year. And they've been talking about that since 1966. So it's not like CRM is going to come in and actually do the teaching. So if people who have done cultural resources don't show up
00:24:58
Speaker
and go into academia and teach students how to do archaeology, then it's not going to happen, right? Because there's no incentive for universities to change. We've talked about this many times either. And I think now CRM companies are kind of interested, but I still haven't seen a check come out. I haven't seen a single person actually start, you know,
00:25:18
Speaker
on in mass coordinating with, you know, the SHA, the SAA or something like that to train people and so it's just more sound and not a lot of people moving after it. I've been working on this for a very long time, right? So, I encourage people who are listening, yeah, go ahead get a PhD because the time you're doing your PhD is the most freedom as far as research that you'll ever do. It's the purest archaeology that you're ever gonna do because no one's telling you no,
00:25:41
Speaker
And if you can prove it and you can figure out a way to pay for it, you can go ahead and do it. And then once you finish, you know, if you go back to CRM, you already have ah experience in CRM anyway. So, you know, you're going to be just able to reach the higher levels of management. And if you, you know, if all the stars align, you get to work in academia, then it's your job to train the next generation. You're going to be the one who's teaching people how to do archaeology.
00:26:03
Speaker
You know, i just to follow up on that, you know, as part of the the issue with that, I mean, I understand that I understand where you're going with that bill, but part part of the issue with CRM, just from my perspective, is that, you know, in order to be companies to be giving money and say, okay, let's let's get together because we talked about this before. i I think it's a great idea. I think the professional side of our archaeology and the academic side of archaeology needs to get together and we there needs to be a good path forward for appropriate education to enter into CRM. But the thing is, is that as you as stated before in the previous segment,
00:26:41
Speaker
the The universities have a very specific way of doing things and whether or not they're going to be open. So let's say I'm CRM company AAA and I'm willing to give a million dollars to a university to set up a program. I mean, obviously money talks, right? So maybe I'm only willing to give a hundred thousand dollars to set up a program. Is it going to be set up in the way that it really needs to be set up? for CRM because we've seen CRM programs open up and they still don't provide the information because you have people that are teaching it don't know anything about CRM. Yes, well it can't be it can't be what it it cannot go to a university, right? Like we can only do so much and it can't just be CRM getting untrained people, right? There's got to be a different way. I have a better idea but we're talking about retirement and it's... And so I just want to follow, very follow up.
00:27:30
Speaker
you know, comment on that. And I do think that this is worthy of another episode, which we can cover that. But in the meantime, yeah I think we'll take it to break. See you guys on the other side. All right, guys, welcome back to episode 299 of the CRM podcast, Chris's Pen Ultimate episode. Though we come in with sort of two topics. As it stands, we're going to have to split this off into another episode. So I don't know. I'm pretty sure Chris will be here for like, what we talk about this joke is like, oh, guys, it's the 400th episode. This is going to be Chris's last.
00:28:05
Speaker
So I think with this one, we're going to have to split out the topic. We got, as usual, too ambitious. I'm going to talk about, you know, like wealth management and how to like actually be able to retire on a CRM, you know, wages and all that sort of stuff is probably going to We'll probably have to do another episode for that, so we'll just continue with the topic we have on hand and do that as a different episode. Heather, I actually had a question about something you said, sir, with your career and have goals. You mentioned you wanted to make a difference in CRM. Do you have an idea of what that's going to be or what you'd want it to be? Well, I think it's going to change over time. I would like as a ideal to eventually get away from the predominant model of ASNATED.
00:28:58
Speaker
staff. And I think that the way to do that in just a cursory overview is to to be much more intentional about the roles of the staff that you have on board, identifying what roles really do need to be done by agreed archaeologists and what don't.
00:29:19
Speaker
and And I think part of the problem with the as needed model, I mean, there's many problems with the as needed model. There's some benefits to it too, but unfortunately it's kind of gotten out of control where a majority of the of the staff is as needed. And that's just not sustainable for anybody for a long period of time. It's extremely stressful for people that are working as an as needed because they don't know It's just they're they're at the mercy rate of of various different companies. And so that is one model is to do that, to revolutionize how CRM has looked at from a business perspective and to not just have it be, and I think we're already making headway with this. There are some other companies that are doing pretty well with it, although some of them are, unfortunately, the business side is that they're not paying their people as well as they should. And I won't name those companies. I think people know who they are.
00:30:16
Speaker
But I think that people that are in a position to do so need to really look at CRM completely differently and to start really creating roles for people from not just an archaeology side, of but a business side.
00:30:34
Speaker
and I think it's difficult to do just if you're only a CRM company, but I think it is possible. And then also this this idea, this concept that cultural resources is just something that has to be, you know that that's forced upon a project. In some ways that is that is true, but CRM has the capability of bringing in a lot more work for a larger engineering or environmental firm. they're not you know if If you have a CRM,
00:31:03
Speaker
group or practice within an environmental company that is just relying on the larger company to bring them work, they're doing it wrong. CRM has just as much of a capacity or a capability to bring in work to the other disciplines as as it is the other way around, as they can bring to CRM. And so i I just think that that's, for me, it's more from the business perspective and building CRM as a practice that isn't just servicing the internal client, but is actively pursuing the external clients and is is a revenue generator for a larger company.
00:31:42
Speaker
So, before you head off to retirement, you want to burn it all down and rebuild it today? Yeah, rebuild it! rebuild it i I mean, Heathermann, that is cool. It's a pretty cool ambition. Yeah, use the blocks to build a new building.
00:31:59
Speaker
yeah yeah The other sort of question I have for everyone is, because we've talked about this and you guys have all been saying, like you know you know your career goals change. I think Chris or Bill said it changes yearly. um I think for some people, it it may change like daily or hourly. and For others, you know it could take you know a couple of years. but I was just wondering, what's your career goals and how have they change? And can you remember back to like some of the other ones you had in the past and you know what you want to do and and maybe 10 years ago and how that's changed? I'm not sure if Bill has a different comment or is going to be the first one to jump in on that. So I'll throw into Bill. I will jump in. I will jump in. I'm glad that you mentioned, you know, what, 10 years ago, right? Because 10 years ago, I was still on the show, but I think I was going into college, right? So I was just going back for a PhD and I had two kids and a mortgage and all this other stuff. And I didn't know if it was going to work out. And I was like, well, I'll just go back to school and I'll weather out the last week of the recession. And then when I'm done, I'll have PhD and I'll be doing CRM and I will have done it for 10 years. But like,
00:33:08
Speaker
you know I think stuff has changed quite a bit for me and I you know was just talking about retiring, but but also, you know one of the things that I've realized is that by doing community archaeology so much, there's there's a lot of communities out there that they didn't know the heritage that was in that town and they they didn't know that there was different groups that lived there, right? So there's that. And then there's a lot of people who have been overlooked for a long time and no one ever like connected with their heritage or ever you know made any kind of historic memorial to the past of the people who used to live there. So I think in that process of of feeling like you're forgotten or or being asked to forget things or or being denied a chance to remember, that a lot of people have a complicated
00:33:55
Speaker
history with the past. And I think in a lot of ways, this gets distorted in the media and it gets used by all different kinds of groups, you know, politicians, businesses, they create this heritage, you know, thing that they then feed to us and then, you know, we eat it and because we're not actually wise enough about our own history and our own past or the way archaeology works, you know, that just it's very easy for us to believe not true things or for myths to be perpetuated. And I think, you know, like going forward, I'd really like to you know use the flexibility that I get from being a professor to provide a pathway for people to connect with these pasts and to try to work through some of the you know harm and you know just the the the pain that comes from being forgotten or being asked to forget things.
00:34:41
Speaker
in ah in a kind of positive way, right? like Folks don't know. Also, I've been you know meditating for a long time. I've been you know connected with a lot of different traditional folks that have other traditional practices and stuff. And I think that there's a lot there that can really help folks work through ah problems that they're having in their life that they may not be understanding that it's like you know you are the way you are because your grandparents and your parents and other people were you know, pushing you to do these certain things and now you're in a place where you kind of don't really realize like where those ideas came from or why you feel that way or, you know, why you would do that to other people and I feel like, you know, kind of going back, reading the story in reverse of your life and of your family's history, that's a pathway for people to kind of realize like, oh, well, I don't need to do that anymore because they went through it so that I don't have to go through it and in the process, like,
00:35:31
Speaker
you know, go to these different sites and and go to these different places and, you know, kind of try to connect in a different way to great, great grandparents and other folks that have gone on, you know, because you're at the place and you can see the neighborhood and you can see the the farm and the landscape where they were once at. And maybe that'll help people make more sense of their life today in the present. And so that's definitely something I'm going to keep trying to do. I've been doing for a while now and in retirement, I just plan on doing less meetings and gibberish and more communities and being mindful and being out in places.
00:36:04
Speaker
Nice. And Heather, we sort of touched on this in your sort of origin story episode, which i I'm sorry, Chris, I'm not being a good podcast host where I could point people to that one and be like, yeah, guys, go listen to episode, whatever. ah Just go back to our archives. But you know Heather, at one point, you know you you've had multiple careers. You were you were looking at sort of the upper echelons of hockey refereeing and stuff, and then you've changed. So I know you've sort of changed your career goals.
00:36:33
Speaker
Do you mind touching on a few of those as well over the years? Sure. I think, you know, it's funny because they've just transitioned organically for me. And then also there's been demarcations in my life, like having children and focusing on that, that kind of also were this natural you know transition to the next career. And so without you know going into great detail, I think the one thing is that what I did with hockey officiating, that really ended because but you know getting pregnant with my my first child, my son, and then having to make a decision on did that
00:37:13
Speaker
did, and this is what happens in archaeology too, is this conducive to me being the mother I want to be. And so I had to make that decision and I'm still involved with hockey. It's just, I'm not involved in that, in in that manner. So, but I've taken all these things that I've learned in hockey because anybody who's been out in the field will definitely attest to the fact that you have to have a strong constitution You have to be able to you know stand up for what is right and you have to be able to do it in a diplomatic way because you you have all these you know stakeholders, all these people that are involved. You can't alienate for that project or for future projects.
00:37:50
Speaker
and so Learning what I did in hockey as a as an official at a high level really helped me be a better archaeologist. And it's actually helped me shift into into more of the business side. And so then my other careers, it's the same thing. So I've taken bits and pieces from experiences in life, and I've then moved that to benefit me in this career.
00:38:17
Speaker
And the same thing, you can do that from inside of a career. So there's different roles that I've had in CRM. I've taken those different roles, and the things that I've learned and the the the skills that I've acquired, and I've shifted those over. And then also constantly trying to look at things from a different perspective. So I don't know if that helps.
00:38:39
Speaker
That answers your question. Yeah, I guess I'll throw it to Chris for the last bit. Maybe your sergeant or commander ruined this for you when you were 18. with when When you went to the military, were you thinking about career military? And then like when you were at the beginning of your CRM career, were you thinking like career CRM and, you know, has your, have you changed a lot over the years? I mean, yeah. Cause I don't, I don't really go into anything without thinking about it sort of being a career, honestly, which kind of tells you how much things change, right? Because I did go to the military thinking I was going to retire. In fact, I went in and I had plans of,
00:39:20
Speaker
I had really crappy, let's be honest, parents and guidance counselors. I didn't know anything about college, ah about going into college. I didn't think I could go to college ever. I didn't think we had the money, the grades, the whatever, right? So I went into the military and then when I got into the military, I tried to go to, I tried to get into the Naval Academy and kind of throw a backdoor and my lieutenant in my squadron kind of screwed that up for me. So, so that didn't work because I wanted to go down the officer route and and make that work and and do a career out of that. And it just, it just never happened. And I also wanted to fly and I actually ended up getting out of the military really only because I got a, uh, and I've talked about this, I think on the podcast a long time ago, but I got a sort of a random phone call from a school in Oklahoma called Spartan school of aeronautics that basically was a flight school, like a tech school for pilots, commercial pilots. And I ended up going there and getting out of the Navy a year and a half early from my six-year tour. I was on a four-year tour with a two-year extension. And I got out a year and a half early, which they were offering early outs at the time. It was during the Clinton era. And I got out and went there and ended up transferring to the University of North Dakota, where they had a much better flying program.
00:40:32
Speaker
and did a whole bunch of commercial flying certificates and things like that. But then kind of drop in aviation and going into archaeology. So that's how I got into that. And because i ah archaeology archaeology was always my first passion. so But all along the way, I was like, well, I'm going to be career military. And then I was like, well, I'm going to be a commercial airline pilot. And I would just want to go up through the ranks there. And then when I got into archaeology and learned about CRM, I was like, great. Well, I want to, you know,
00:40:58
Speaker
own a company. And you know that would that was like my career goal there. But to do that, you have to you have to get a master's degree and do that. So I went and got a master's degree at some point, and did that, and owned a company, and ran projects, and figured, well, now I've done that. Now what? right it kind of It's kind of like once I owned a company and had a master's degree, I'm like, what are we going to do this for the next 30 years? like what Where am I going to go from here? right what I really did kind of think that. And it was like, what, are we just going to own bigger company?
00:41:28
Speaker
like like What does that look like? I actually kind of knew a few people in California that were at the end of their careers that had owned companies for a really long time. Some of those people that started back in the late 70s, early 80s and owned a company and that company went to 40, 50 people and then down to 15, 5 people and then back up to 30 people and down to 5 people. and like I really don't want to play that game right where the where you just ebb and flow with the work and the cycles and the economy. and like What is that? right and and You're the one person, the the concept that just stays there, like one of those time travel movies where you sit there and everything changes around you for four decades.
00:42:04
Speaker
and I just like didn't really want that to be me. so I was just constantly looking, like I said earlier in the segments, for those opportunities around me and and not saying no to them. and Constantly starting new things like the RKLD Podcast Network and my podcasting business saying and now this new thing with the software implementation and and then the new side business off of that. so Like Heather said,
00:42:26
Speaker
never really staying still and just kind of always looking for opportunities. so I don't really know where this thing is going. I don't see the software implementation being forever either by any means. I think my retirement game is to just kind of be a serial business owner and to have multiple streams of income.
00:42:42
Speaker
i think That's what it is. so So we'll see how that goes. Probably going to kill me is what it's going to do. Heather, you get the honor of of the last comment for the for the episode. I always say that. And then, you know, you're going to say something and then we're all going to jump in and no, no, no. This is it. Chris is going to like be yelling in the background. Wrap it up, guys. Wrap it up. I promise we need to wrap it up after this last comment. And that was like 10 minutes ago.
00:43:13
Speaker
Okay, so mine mine was just there is so much opportunity. Don't give up on CRM. i It makes me really sad. I say this all the time. I see it on social media a lot.
00:43:26
Speaker
don't
00:43:29
Speaker
Don't settle for what people are telling you CRM is. Don't even settle for what you perceive it to be now. You can make an impact. You can definitely make this a good job and a well-paying career and a ah career where you can actually make a difference in the world and just don't buy what what so many are saying is that this, you know, that you have to put up with the, you know, what everybody perceives is this poverty mindset, right? So just, it can be better and you can be part of the solution and go for it. Wow. It's rare that we end on like a positive note for the podcast.
00:44:09
Speaker
So, well done, Heather there. And thank you to the listeners in the field. Oh, I've now forgotten, like Chris has said this like 300 times, but like, this is why I always throw out to Chris because he has it. It's like, thank you for listening to the field, something, something, and we're going to see you. It's not even the right time to do it. You're just going to do it the right way. I was just jumping in there, Chris, but I'll do what I do best and just go goodbye.
00:44:39
Speaker
We're out of order. We're out of order, so I'll leave it to Chris to give us the outro. We're ensuring that you want to leave prison. That's not a problem. Not a problem. All right. Validating your decision. All right. Well, with that, I think we'll see everybody next time. All right. And next time is going to be our 300th episode, so don't miss that one. All right. See everybody next week.
00:45:07
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com forward slash crmarcpodcast. If you like the show and want to comment, please do. You can leave comments about this or any other episode on the website or on the iTunes page for the episode. You can also email me at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com or use the contact form on the podcast webpage. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website. Please share the link to the show wherever you saw it. Don't forget to go over to iTunes and leave a review of the show. It helps us get noticed so more people can find our podcast and benefit from the content. Also, send us show suggestions and interview suggestions. We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Also, please consider donating to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:45:55
Speaker
Thanks, everyone, for joining me this week. Thanks also to the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. Goodbye. There it is. That was it. That was the outro. That's what I was looking for. I messed it up. I'm sorry, Chris.
00:46:14
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archapodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.