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Why Work a 10-4 Rotation and Other Cycles? - Ep 296
483 Plays3 months ago
We received a listener question (submit yours to [email protected]) about how hard it is for someone with a family to work a 10-4 rotation. On today’s episode we talk about why companies work 10-4, 9-5, 8-6, and 5-2 cycles and how they should decide which ones to work. What considerations should they make regarding their staff and field crews when deciding? Please submit your questions to the show!
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/296
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
ArchPodNet
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
Episode Overview: Work Session Lengths
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 296 for September 4th, 2024. I'm your host, Chris Webster. On today's show, we talk about how companies decide how long a working session should be and how they should decide. So get your camping gear ready and your hotel points card, because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
Listener's Email: 10-day Work Rotations
00:00:51
Speaker
Hello, and oh, that's not right. Yes. Oh, are we recording this? This is such an intro right there. That's it. For anyone not listening, Chris, monologue speech about how he has just blew it guys. Oh, that's yeah like Please Chris. us said Rachel, take that out.
00:01:23
Speaker
okay we yeah good Welcome to the show, everyone. Joining me today is Andrew in Southern California. Hey, how's it going, everyone? And Doug in Scotland. Hey, everyone. All right. So on today's show, we are going to talk about another listener email that we got. And, you know, I kind of lost the email a little bit. I'm not sure where it went. So I don't have the person's name that sent it in, but basically the gist of the whole thing is here is he works in the Southeast. He's been a field tech there for a while and now he's kind of moved up in the world a little bit and he's got a desk, but you know, still goes out into the field.
00:01:59
Speaker
And he's sitting there at his desk in an office, you know kind of getting prepared for a few different projects. And he's listening to a field director and a PI talk about a schedule for an upcoming project.
Impact of 10-day Rotations
00:02:12
Speaker
And he's got a wife, he's got kids, or at least a kid. I don't know how many kids. I wasn't really clear on that or I forgot either way.
00:02:20
Speaker
And they're talking about the schedule for this project and they're talking about doing a 10 day rotation. Now, for anybody that doesn't know what that means, cause we do have an international audience and we have people all over the country doing different schedules, but the 10 day rotation is basically, it's typically Tuesday through the following, following weeks, Thursday, right? So you get Friday through Monday off Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and then you start working on a Tuesday you're in hotels or, you know, sometimes in the West you're camping or whatever you're doing, but it's Tuesday through Thursday.
00:02:49
Speaker
the following Thursday. So a full 10 days. That's typically eight hours a day because that's 40 hours a week and five eight hour days, you know, just 10 of them in a row. And you know, typically the reason that companies do that is because it saves them on drive time. So if you have a long drive into the field, you're not spending two or three hours a day of your workday doing that drive time. That's why they do rotations like that. And you know,
00:03:16
Speaker
if I'm being honest, typically companies are bidding on projects that are too far from their office if they have to do that. And it's just diluting the field. But that's a completely different conversation that we're going to have. The really thing he was talking about here was how hard that is on people, how hard that is on families, and how hard that is on people who are staying and trying to stay in this field past the single field tech life stage and getting into the career stage. right So i mean you might think that you're starting this as a career when you get out of college, but you're not always starting this as a career when you get out of college. You think you are. You're like, oh, I just spent X number of thousands of dollars on a college degree. And and now I'm an archeologist. Great. I'm going to do this until I die. But statistically, you're not. right You're going to get burned out. You're going to end up doing something else.
00:04:01
Speaker
or the field is going to spit you out broken and destroyed shell of a person and you're going to do something else. right the the real The reality is you're probably going to have to get an advanced degree to stay in this. There are some places in the country where you can stay a field tech with an undergraduate degree. and you know I don't know about retire if that's the right word in the traditional sense of the word, but you can definitely work for 20, 25 years doing this. but i mean The reality, like I said, is you're probably going to you know end up wanting to do all the normal things that people want to do. get ah you know have ah Have a spouse and a family and and do those sorts of things. And then you've got to do these 10 day rotations and that makes it really, really difficult.
00:04:41
Speaker
so I think we're going to talk about just the
Alternatives and Improvements in Work Rotations
00:04:44
Speaker
alternatives to that. you know what are What are the other types of, I guess, rotations that people can do? And and you know I don't know, how can companies do better? So first off, what are you guys's thoughts on this? All right. So like first, just on the 10-day rotation itself, you know like like is that a good or bad thing?
00:05:01
Speaker
Yeah, we can we can talk because I did it, you know, a few times. But like you said, Chris, it was in the early days when I was, you know, a single young bachelor out in the West, you know, and it was even then I don't even know today what to say about it because I'm torn.
00:05:18
Speaker
because part of it was good. Part of it, I do agree with the company in terms of like you're driving way out there. Like you said, it's because it's super far away from their offices or whatever. Let's say it's like a six hour drive, then you drive out there. So that part is good. It is nice to not have to then drive back for some half a weekend. You know, you get there on Saturday night and have to leave Sunday morning or something awful. um So there was that. But then at the same time, for those of us who've done that,
00:05:44
Speaker
When you think on those 10 day rotations, when you're working on like day eight, you know, you're like, Oh my God, I need to take a break. You know, it's those are those day eights and nines are tough. So I'm torn. I kind of think.
00:06:04
Speaker
I vote more towards trying to have a normal schedule at all costs. Like when in doubt, not doing the 10 day thing. I don't know. I think that's where I stand. Doug. Yeah. A couple of comments. One is my 10 days where I did them were like, actually on Monday through Wednesday, we didn't do a ah Tuesday, Thursday, which is slightly different.
Remote Work and Travel Challenges
00:06:26
Speaker
Gives you, I feel like it gives you a little bit more of a weekend or a long weekend. and that you know after After those 10 days, you have a day or two to rest, and then you actually have a weekend before you head out back to the field. I'll also slightly push back on like if you're bidding a little too far from your your organization, if you're having to do stuff stuff like that. I think that does happen. I'll agree with Chris. That really happens. I'll agree with Chris. That definitely does happen. But sometimes is you know it depends on your state.
00:07:00
Speaker
be in really remote stuff. and i mean I've actually done camping because it's just so remote, especially if you end up in the West and you're doing a BLM or forestry project where like because they have basically a requirement to inventory all that the government owns. um you know Some of that is really, really remote areas. Yeah, for sure. it's It's not actually that far from the office. like if you're If you're driving out there,
00:07:26
Speaker
you know like it may be only like a hundred or 50 miles from the office as the ah stuff crow flies, but actually getting out there, you know, can take forever. Cause you're out on these tiny little dirt roads that basically take forever. Yeah. So I think there's, there it's a bit more mixed than that. I think I'm basically with Andrew in the sense of like, you know, it wasn't too bad when you're single. Yeah. Oh yeah. yeah And I also think it's probably not too bad depending on
00:07:57
Speaker
people later in life as well on you know how you how you like to live. yeah but Kids isn't for everyone, but even you know some families with kids, it might be their thing. I think it's there, but I do think that it's a real problem in archaeology. There's actually not a lot of archaeology jobs, and especially if you're like in certain states, there's not a lot of jobs. There's not I'd say there's not the opportunity a lot, a lot of times to be able to choose a different working pattern. Like you can't go for jobs that are just like the Monday through Friday. And that's, I think that's probably a bigger problem. A bit more hurtful is not so much.
00:08:39
Speaker
I think it's not a bad thing that you know we have different sort of working patterns where it's you know Monday through Friday or you know a 10-day.
Experiments with Work Weeks
00:08:47
Speaker
That's not bad. and you know um actually so In the UK, there's a ah company who's experimenting with the four-day work week. That's a big thing right now. but and There's different ways of of implementing that. There's some companies who are basically doing like, you know it's ah it goes down to 32 hours of work, just get more work done in those 32 hours. And some are doing like 10 hour days basically. So you're just front loading 40 hours into four days as opposed to you know eight hour days. And there's different ways of doing that. And I don't know, your guys' opinions on those?
00:09:23
Speaker
I would just say the 10 day, one more thing about the 10 day, sometimes it's not so bad if it's, you know, the total job might be two rotations of 10 days or something or three rotations of 10 days. So there can be an end point. You know, you're not doing it forever. You might just be like, well, this month I'm burning this. And the other thing I noticed on those jobs that I was on is it was full of young people like myself and Older people like you were talking about Doug like who are either like retired. It's like a second career You know like prime age individuals as we say in archaeology were underrepresented You know you didn't see like the 35 year old dad. You know you they just weren't there because they couldn't be
00:10:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. When I was single for a little while before I met Rachel, because I was, I mean, we met each other pretty early on in both our careers. So, but when I was single for a little while, I mean, I, the longer I could work the better, right? Because I was getting per diem when I was working. I was in hotels. I was in, I mean, probably, probably nicer hotels, because when I wasn't in hotels, I didn't have a place to live. Like I didn't have an apartment I was going back to.
00:10:24
Speaker
I was literally living on the road, right living out of my car. I wasn't sleeping in my car on the weekends. I was getting a different hotel or I was camping depending on where I was or I was doing something. so and I was generally by myself too. right so When I was on rotation, I was with other people. I was being social. I was doing things. you know I was getting paid. When I was not,
00:10:44
Speaker
It was, to be honest, depressing. you know but It was just was bad. And then when Rachel and I got together and we started working, when we first got together, she had an apartment actually and she had a lab job and she would go out occasionally. And then I started going out more. And then when we basically quit that job,
00:11:00
Speaker
And we started working our way across the country. We were basically living out of our forerunner for about in her car until we got the forerunner for about three years as we moved our way west and then worked in the west before we kind of settled down in Reno and got an apartment. And we we really liked longer sessions, honestly, because Again, when we were off session, you had to figure it out yourself. You had to figure out where you were going to go, what you were going to do. You had to go, you know, we liked camping out in the West. We really love camping and we go see national parks and that was fun. But when you're like forced to do it and you have to figure it out and yeah and it's like, it becomes less fun. And we're kind of doing the same thing now as RVers, but it' just you know,
00:11:39
Speaker
Anyway, but there's other sessions and that was one of the things we learned out West. and There's other, there's other lengths of sessions you can do with that, that can work. And there's, there's advantages and disadvantages to it and things like that. And let's talk about that on the other side of the break back in a minute.
00:11:55
Speaker
Welcome back to episode two 96 of the CRM archeology podcast. And we are talking about links of working rotations. 10 days is what we started with. However, when my wife and I did go to the West, we experienced our first eight and six rotation, which was interesting. And, oh, no. Yeah. Was it eight and six or nine and five was an interesting one.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah, that was good because we did, if I'm not mistaken, the first five days was at eight hours a day.
Optimal Work Schedules for Various Situations
00:12:28
Speaker
And then it was four days at 10 hours a day. It could have been the other way around. I can't remember. But either way, it was nine and five. And that that's what I think it was in New Mexico, nine and five for that company. And in down there on that project, we actually kind of enjoyed that because the project area wasn't that far.
00:12:45
Speaker
Well, it was a little bit a little bit ways away. So it wasn't actually a super long day. In fact, I think that's why they were doing a little bit longer days on part of it was because we did have a little bit of a drive. So we wanted to get some work in and there was a little bit of a hike to the site too. And there was just like, you know, like a lot of factors at play there. Plus the drive.
00:13:04
Speaker
out there, there was a number of people from the company. The the company was based out of Santa Fe. you know It's always self-serving when you look at that. They wanted more time at home. right They really enjoyed their home. They enjoyed being there and they wanted more time at home. so They planned a rotation around that aspect of it. and and Again, for us,
00:13:23
Speaker
We did have the house. they They had these ranch houses for us to stay in that we could stay in off the rotations as well, of course, which was really nice. But we actually took that time to spend most of it. We would just go out and camp at national parks. So kind of weird. You're you're like forced to figure out where you have to stay most of the time. But when you're not forced, it's like, Oh, okay. I have the flexibility. Well, I'm not going to stay here.
00:13:44
Speaker
I'm like, go somewhere else and leave all my stuff here. And so that's when we went camping. Hey, Chris. So for the nine and five, just I don't know if I understand it exactly. So those are both like you have like like nine regular days, five extra long days. But then how long do you get off? Like, is it nine and five?
00:14:00
Speaker
No, it's nine and working days, five days off. Okay. Nine working days, five days off. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Yeah. And of the nine days, gotcha. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Of the, of those nine days, five days were eight hours long and four days for 10 hours long. Yeah. And then also when we got to Nevada, we worked for our first company that did eight and six. where every day was 10 hours a
Company Decisions and Field Techs' Needs
00:14:26
Speaker
day. And then you had six days off. And again, 100% self serving for the company. They did not care about us. They were like, we want more time at home. Field text hated it because you know, we're like, the hell are we supposed to do for six days off? We got two days less per diem than every other company that was doing 10 and four. So they saved money on per diem and they save money on hotels. They save money on per diem. And we're like, the hell are we supposed to actually do for the six days off? you know, this is garbage. And it was just, it was, it was terrible. We, we literally hated it. And that was the same company that, you know, they, they were not used to hiring quote, shovel bumps. We were some of their first, and I guess they were getting some bigger projects and they were used to hiring local field techs that would just jump in the car with them. And I'm like, and these guys, I never understood it too. This is kind of an aside. Some of these local field techs, they would just take like,
00:15:18
Speaker
a small carry-on suitcase with them and their field bag, and they would throw that in the back of the forerunner. And Rachel and I roll up with ah with our own complete forerunner, four-door, with everything in it completely packed to the gills because we live in hotels, we have our camping gear, we have our field gear, we have all our hotel gear, we have everything with us that we own, every all of our possessions we own with us in that vehicle. And they're like, well, you can leave in the parking lot, just jump in the field truck.
00:15:43
Speaker
for the rotation, we're like, um, no, we're going to drive this out to the hotel. And they're like, Oh, well, that's weird. Well, you're not going to get paid unless you're in the company car. So, so then Rachel would just drive in the company car, ride in the company car. So one of us got paid yeah and then I would drive the car out. I'm like, are you actually kidding me right now? They're like, Oh, it's our insurance. Shut up. that like how How do other companies figure it out? Yeah. It's like, come on. That is so interesting, too, because on the surface, I would find eight and six very attractive because like with the extra 10 hour days instead of eight, because once you're out there, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, I would prefer to burn that time. So it's so funny selling eight and six to me. I'm like, oh, yeah, I would do that. But in your situation, it totally makes sense that you didn't like it.
00:16:32
Speaker
It's all perspective though. right yeah like In early career, eight and six probably sucks because you have nowhere if you don't have anywhere to live, yeah that's what it's all about. you know But if you have a place to live, you have a family and it's all family oriented, then then yeah eight and six is optimal. right and so That's why I think companies you know need to take in all those factors when they're trying to decide what type of rotation to do. They need to say, what does our crew actually look like? And they never pull the field crew. I was never pulled to say, what is your situation when we decide what this rotation is going to look like? No, they make this decision internally. And you're told what it's going to look like, right? And yeah to be honest, to be absolutely fair, when I was trying to determine what
00:17:11
Speaker
rotations were going to look like when I was doing this for my own company. Never once thought about my crew. I was trying to think what is best for the situation that we're going to be in. You were trying to think what is best for Chris, as you just always do. What is best for the contract is what I was actually trying to think. Wait a second. You're a professional.
00:17:32
Speaker
I was like, what? and And I wasn't concerned with me, actually. I have no kids, you know? or Rachel would come down and visit sometimes. I didn't care if I was gone for 10 days. I wasn't trying to shorten it. I actually like being out in the field. I like staying in hotels. And and and I like doing old scans. I mean, we live in an RV now. We love to travel. I've always loved to travel. So I wasn't concerned with a longer rotation, right? And in enlighten fact, a lot of times, I never even went home on the four days, right? If we were gone, if we were ah far enough away, I would just stay out there. i'm I'm really thinking about some of these longer projects like this big China Lake project we had where we actually had apartments rented for eight months. We had these fully furnished apartments rented where we you could just stay there. and Sometimes like Rachel would come down or sometimes we meet halfway in Yosemite for the weekend or something like that, which was really cool. but yeah Anyway, I was trying to think that way, but I don't think companies think enough about
00:18:21
Speaker
the full picture, you know what I mean? I think this right here is actually fascinating and really important, you know, this that something as simple as how you structure your work weeks and your perspective, Chris, is just really awesome because you've been on both sides, you know what I mean? And just that nobody ever thinks of this and how much smoother a project would ultimately run if this was actually considered and had some time focused on it.
00:18:48
Speaker
it's not been It's not even just like the project, but it's I think it also sort of affects the wider profession and sort of the people we attract as well. like most people I could say this with really high confidence. like If you're an employer, 99% of the time, your you never stop to think about any of your actions.
00:19:12
Speaker
and what sort of workplace that that's building. I mean, you'll you'll see a lot of employers talk about these things, about these initiatives. And some of them mean really well by it. They definitely do. And some it's just, you know, that normal corporate bullshit of let's look like we care, but we don't actually care sort of stuff. But for the most part, no one actually sits down and thinks like, yeah, you know, if we have our offices open from nine to five,
00:19:37
Speaker
What sort of people do we attract? If we have if this job is full-time versus part-time, what sort of people do we attract? And these various things. And yeah, I do wish people would spend more time. I say this as someone who probably should as well, actually thinking about it. And I guess you see these sort of complaints from people being like, oh, you know, so-and-so, you know, field texts aren't what they used to be back in my day, yada, yada, yada.
00:20:04
Speaker
But you know some of that is like you who do you want to attract? do you Do you want to have a crew of just 20 year old single people or people who are so know second career retired? Or do you want to have a ah crew that maybe has 10, 20 years of experience for each person, but you've built it differently because you they can get home to pick up their kids from school.
Local vs Remote Work Setups
00:20:28
Speaker
or they can you know drop off their kids or stuff like that. I mean, there are some, so the UK is a little bit different and that you know yeah definitely have a radius because you you really, unless you're like some of the central belt organizations going up into the highlands, it's all local.
00:20:44
Speaker
like he there's There's a quick radius. like you You don't usually pay for hotel and stuff like that in the UK because you know this the density is so much higher. You just don't have that effect and you really just can't afford to win a bid if someone's you know two miles from the site and you're 100 miles away and having to ship out your crew and stuff like that. just It rarely happens. But there's in that sort of, you it it tends to be much more traditional 9 to 5. There are some companies who basically start at like 6 AM. That is mainly because so people could split it up. so you know You start at 6, you're done early enough to go pick up your kids from school. um and there There are some companies that do try to do that. you know It's a bit harder in the States with the vastness of the size. but
00:21:32
Speaker
You know, that, that was a company that did that because they very specifically wanted to target people with families. And, you know, it'd be great if, if there's a little bit more thought thinking about, you know, those different things that went into when people were scheduling, but yeah there's also other considerations that go in as well. Costs and whatnot. That, that kind of project planning as I think what I want to wrap this up with on the third segment. So let's do that on the other side of the break, back in a minute.
00:22:01
Speaker
Welcome back to episode two 96 of the CRM archeology podcast. And we're wrapping up this discussion on the length of your working rotations, your 10 days, your nine, six, your nine, five, your eight, six, your 10, four, three, two, one. I don't know. You're 25 or six to four. I don't know what it is. You're throwing out random numbers. I know. I'm pretty sure I just threw in a Chicago song, but anyway.
00:22:26
Speaker
and you're eight six five three zero nine s um so anyway ah So, I really think that it would be it would behoove a company, right? And I'd really like somebody to write in or leave a comment or something if if you know of a company that's actually doing this. and And possibly they are. I have a feeling the motivation is different when you see posts that say job postings that say locals only, because you do see that. I have a feeling they underbid the project and they don't have the per diem to pay.
00:22:59
Speaker
But when they say, when they say locals only, that's my assumption. But maybe they are looking for a crew that is willing to do something like an eight, six, or maybe they're nine to five, or, you know, they're not going to get hotels or something. And they just want, you know, they just want more of a, more of that kind of a feel, right? They just want people who, who don't have to have accommodation paid for, right? So they're, so they're not going to do that. And it more likely is the project is just simply not going to pay for it anyway, because it is a local project.
00:23:24
Speaker
But maybe, maybe the reason for that is because, and I'll give you a good example, there's a lot of field techs that live in and around the Reno area, right? There's a lot of projects, a lot of companies that will depart from that area to go pretty much anywhere in Nevada, sometimes Northern California, you know sometimes Oregon, but but a lot of places in Nevada. And you might have to drive two, three, four hours to get to the project area, sometimes even just the near the city that you're going to, or sometimes the the random spot of BLM land where you're going to pitch a tent for the next 10 days and you're going to work right there, right? Now in those situations, if all of your field techs actually live in the Reno area, then an eight and six would probably be optimal. right? Because while you are going to get paid less per diem, that kind of sucks, right? You're going to get two days less per diem. Everybody knows that, but that seems okay, right? Because you get to go home because you do have a home, right? If you're local, you live the there, you have an apartment, you have a house, even if you don't have family, you have a social infrastructure that you go back to that you enjoy that you, that you can, you know, then have six days off in a row and then, and then just go hiking up like Tahoe and do whatever you want to do. And, you know, go, you know, go have some hipster food down in midtown, do whatever you're going to do. Right. Like, like, you know, go, go to, go to one of the 18, one syllable restaurants that are in midtown. And then you'd be hipster if it's one syllable. That's right. well so you know But you can do that, right? Now, if the project attracts a bunch of people, let's say it's a bigger project and they can't they can't staff it with the people, or maybe it's mid-summer and they were kind of surprised with this project and everybody in local Reno has been hired, right? So now they have to attract people from California, people from Arizona, people from around.
00:25:10
Speaker
And now these people are driving in for this project and they still want to do an eight and six. That is a phenomenally bad idea, right? Because when you get back to Reno, those people now have six days like Rachel and I did. I'm specifically thinking about you unnamed company, which I really am struggling not to say the name of. I just like really want to call you out. But you know, this was 15 plus years ago and I'm just not going to call your 15 year old, 15 year old selves out because you, you may or may not be the same today and I don't know. But the point is, you know that was really tough on us. It was really, really, really tough because you weren't used to hiring shovel bumps. And I understand we were the minority on the crew, so maybe you're not going to change your whole ethos for two people. I get that. But there was at least one other person on the crew, I think, that did come on come in from out of town, if I'm not mistaken. I can't quite remember, but I think they did. but
00:26:01
Speaker
Either way, if you pull your whole crew and before you even start the project and you say, Hey, where'd you guys come from? you know What's going on? What's your deal? And you find out that, Hey, most of your crew is from out of town. Maybe you should do a 10 day because that just gives them a little bit more money in their pocket. And it allows for a few extra days for them to not have to find lodging. And you know what? Ultimately,
00:26:23
Speaker
Ultimately, it probably makes them a little bit happier. Not sure you're working an extra two days, which does kind of suck, but it's a I think you're going to get more productivity personally. I think that's going to happen.
Living Conditions During Rotations: Camping vs Hotels
00:26:35
Speaker
so anyway i just People don't think about that. so Yeah, so I'm going to slightly flip that over on you, Chris. Of course you are. Yeah, yeah, of course. I am shocked. Yeah, yeah. I'm not going to completely disagree like normal, but yeah. well so I think some of those sort of advantages you're thinking of depends really on the project and can disappear. we've We've talked about this before, like you know per diem is great, but sometimes actually per diem
00:27:05
Speaker
is nothing. you know The company books the hotels so you don't actually get any of that per diem. Maybe they book like ah the breakfast so you don't get breakfast. Well, we're talking about the West, Doug. It's all cash all the time. No, not all the time, man. wow time i've worked I've worked where like basically you get almost nothing in per diem. It's all booked through. You get packed lunches, these things. The hotel's booked. you you don't You're not able to get like any bonus points or anything like that on your board points. um yeah i mean like there's There's different ways of doing it. and so like they like me that Or like you can also be camping as well. 10 days of camping, because because I've done that, it can be really rough. We did a project where it was you know
00:27:57
Speaker
It was the middle of nowhere. It was still a two-hour drive. It was a great project for money because we got overtime because every day was a 10-hour day or 12-hour day because it was two, two and a half, three hours just to get from the nearest small town that had a hotel.
00:28:15
Speaker
out to the middle of nowhere. And they tried to do, you know, got RVs, camping, tents, all these things. But eventually we just went back to, they bit the bullet and just put us at the hotel and ate the drive time.
00:28:29
Speaker
Cause it just, you know, camping's great. And if you're built for that, you could do it for a very long time, but you know, working like 10 hours, going back to sleep on like hard cold ground. Well, you didn't buy the right camping gear. If you're sleeping on a hard cold ground.
Side Hustles and Work Rotations
00:28:47
Speaker
Yeah, but I feel like, you know, the whole camping thing, I kind of agree with Doug. I i hate the whole camping thing. And you're like, oh, Mr. Belize, jungle camper, you hate camping? Yes, I do. You know, and I feel like if I've done a really hard, long day, which so much of CRM is camping is work, you know, to me. And I'm like, when I'm done working, I don't want to work more. I just want to go somewhere and sit down. You know, so I always find the camping situation tough.
00:29:13
Speaker
I want to, yeah I want to shovel bomb on a camping project real for next summer. Just, just on a lark, just as a field tech and bring my ah RV. I just want to roll up 35 foot class. a You have to do it to the site you have to do this. Please do this. chris Well, we we did the RV thing as well. Yeah. Chris, so you you're going to lose your damage deposit. I'll just tell you that right off the bat, you're you're losing your damage deposit. It's going to like, you're going to get
00:29:45
Speaker
you're going to have those nice little stripes along from all the tree branches just ripping out the paint. It's going to be wonderful. But yeah, I don't know. There's that. But like also, you know some people level up jobs or have other things. So like six days off, if you're if you're doing sort of maybe some freelance stuff on the side for other things, it can be actually quite helpful. yeah But again, I think this goes back to our whole thing. it' like you know the schedule can actually sort of attract different crowds of people who will be attracted to different types of jobs. and Probably the bigger issue is for most people who are listening to this and are going to be complaining, is that you actually don't get that diversity. so I think, yeah, Chris, you didn't want an eight and six, but some other people might find it actually works quite well.
00:30:31
Speaker
But you know again, and if you're in a small state or even a big state, there's not going to be a lot of archeology jobs. There's not going to be a lot of choice. and that can be I think that could probably be the roughest part is actually not so much whatever your schedule is, but your schedule changing.
00:30:47
Speaker
Like, yeah, you can you could do those 10 days. you You can possibly even have a family on 10 day rotation if you can keep that same schedule and you can plan it out. And you know, for the next couple of years, you're going to be able to watch the kids these four days, a hundred percent, and your partner's going to take them, you know, the other ones on the other weekend. and yeah Or you got grandparents who who can you do every other weekend. You know, there's ways of doing that. But the rough is like, you go 10 days and then you do a six and eight or you know, a five day work week and it can really destroy your ability to actually plan for any, you know, semblance of a life.
Transparency in Job Ads
00:31:24
Speaker
But yeah, Doug, you bring up the sort of art and science of the side hustle. And I think that's a super important point I could see in the future, something like an eight and six being more and more popular because you have that open time for that other job, you know, because I mean, that's how everything has gone and is going. Hmm.
00:31:45
Speaker
Or even people, I mean, yeah you know, you're talking ah America here. You guys don't take a much holiday or vacation time, but you know, like you could actually six days is a solid time off. good you know its yeah If you actually have some money or, you know, you are just doing that RVing or the sleeping, you know, we've talked about how you can convert a truck to, you know,
00:32:10
Speaker
semi camper van ish set up and you there's a lot of different setups you could do. Six days off is is massive. You can fly to Hawaii, and go to Hawaii. Hawaiian vacation.
00:32:22
Speaker
Don't get me wrong, the say they get six days off and actually take it don't get me wrong if you if you do it i mean if you've got the right situation, it's a freaking dream, right? It's an actual dream to have that kind of time. it's just that the my The whole point of this whole thing is that companies aren't companies aren't being cognizant of the needs and and desires and situations of their crew and actually asking them like, what is your situation? Right. And, and I think to wrap this whole thing up, there's, you're never going to make everybody happy. So it's a, it's a mixture of people taking jobs based on, based on a faithful representation of the job description and saying, listen, here's the deal. We're doing this.
00:33:06
Speaker
it's We're doing you know eight and six. We're doing nine and five. We're doing 10 and four. you know Here's your per diem. Here's what you're going to get. Don't take that job if that doesn't fit what you need. I mean, obviously if you just need the money and you don't have a choice, take it, but don't complain about it because you know you took the job. So it is what it is. I would say just a slight complaint on my side is it'd be great if job adverts actually included that information. Oh yeah, but for sure. i've looked For sure. And like it's one of those where you applied, they're like, yeah, you got the job. And you're like, yes. And then you're like, so what are the details? And they're like, well, I need you on site in two hours and we're doing a 10 and four and something like that. as yeah Actual garbage. Yeah. It's terrible.
00:33:51
Speaker
and There's a lot of things that like are sort of not put in job adverts because yeah they want to get people in, but I think it's a waste of everyone's time, including employers. yeah like yeah you know you you're You're calling up and then like you've hired someone and then they're like, actually, no, dude, I can't do a 10 and I have kids. I can't i can't do a 10 and 4. You've just spent all that time hiring, maybe interviewing them, all that stuff. It's all blown. so I think i know more upfront in your job adverts would go a long way. ive i've I've never understood why R. Joe Brandon didn't have a form for people to fill out to submit jobs that had required fields. I actually drafted i have drafted pages for starting a competing service to ShovelBumps on, I don't know, the old Team Black website, maybe the APN website or something. It never really brought it to fruition.
00:34:41
Speaker
just because I didn't have the the time and resources to really do it. But I really thought about it for a long time and and I drafted these pages and they have required fields. And it's just like, you can't submit this job unless you have this information. And if if it doesn't if it doesn't actually fit that job, you have to say it doesn't fit this job, right? Like we're not doing this. But every job has some kind of a rotation, if it's five and two, every job has that, right? At least.
Modern vs Historical Work Schedules
00:35:07
Speaker
So, you know, what is this thing that fits? What is this five and two you talk of? That sounds amazing. I know you're, you're on a, you're on a community college. It's like two and seven or something. I don't even know what it is. Completely odd. I can't, we can't even bring that up. My, my actual schedule is fricking weird. It's like one and three and two and not, it just depends on the week. It's, it's completely all over the place.
00:35:29
Speaker
Exactly. But I think, I think, I think Doug, I think you said it earlier is that, you know, somebody, some people say they don't, they don't make field texts like they used to. And as an extreme example of that, I'm reading, I'm almost done with it right now. Cause I feel like I read this a long time ago, but I just picked it up again because of where we were in Connecticut and, and, uh, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, the whole area. But sorry I started reading, I'm reading it, listening to the audio book while I drive in the heart of the sea by Nathaniel Philbrook, which is about the tragedy of the whaling ship Essex, which got hit by a sperm whale, which was the impetus for Moby Dick.
00:36:00
Speaker
But they're just talking about a lot about whaling in the early 1800s. These whaling field techs, if you will, would go out for three to four years at a time and then come back for like three months and then go back again. Like that was their career. Like they would only be home for three, four months and then head right back out on another whaling ship and be gone for another three to four years. And they had families. You're saying they were doing like a seven, 21, 20. Exactly.
00:36:29
Speaker
Exactly. yeah It was terrible. Yeah. Like we're complaining about this. now The 302,000 or something like that. Exactly. Exactly. The 97 20. Oh my God. The 90 1400.
00:36:50
Speaker
Oh, that's
Final Thoughts on Employer Scheduling Considerations
00:36:51
Speaker
terrible. all right well Anyway, I think we've kind of beat this dead horse. But ah listen, if you're if you're a company owner or a PI or ah or a or a field director or somebody who's in charge of of writing up these schedules, I would say obviously the budget is king. right so And if you didn't budget well, if you weren't in charge of it, do better next time. But think about your Think about the potential field crew you might have. like if you're if you're if you you You know what you get, right? like If you've got ah a resource of field technicians from your local area that you always use, well, then you know what kind of a schedule you can do. You know what they like, so do something that keeps them happy because, quite honestly, they're the ones that keep money coming in the door, right? and
00:37:30
Speaker
If you're the kind of company that is always getting people from who knows where, random places that that are always driving in, then again, think accordingly, but at least maybe ask them and see see what people like and you just might get a better product. And if you're a field tech listening to this, well,
00:37:46
Speaker
You know, there's a lot of jobs out there these days and if you are willing to drive, then you can probably get something that's more favorable to what you want if you just look out there and and try to get those things. And if you want to stay local, if you want to have a family, if you want to have a house, then maybe try to, if you're flexible and you can move and you you're not committed to one area for whatever reason, which isn't usually the case for a lot of people, and I totally understand that. But try to find some place that maybe has a lot of companies, like Reno, or you know Southern California has a lot of CRM companies. The Bay Area has a lot of CRM companies. There's places in the South, if you like that environment. I don't know who does and why, but if you want to live over there, there's places that have a lot of CRM companies. But live somewhere with a high density of CRM companies, so you have a high density of work available, and then you might not have to move as much. so
00:38:34
Speaker
All right. Any other final comments from you guys? ah dama go um good I totally agree with you, Chris. and a Good way to end it. All right. All right. Well, with that, thanks a lot, guys. And we will see you next time.
00:38:51
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet dot.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions.
00:39:21
Speaker
We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere, and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also for the listeners for tuning in, and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. See you guys next time. Doug's out on a 10 day. I don't think he's going to do it. Yeah. I think he's on a whaling ship. He might be. I think so. My intro is a 45 and five. We just get 45 seconds, and then I give a five seconds. Yeah. Goodbye, everyone.
00:40:00
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.