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Hiring, in the room where it happens - Ep 288
623 Plays5 months ago
What happens when your CV/Resume gets reviewed? In a different, from our normal, podcast the team takes a stab at the hiring process.
Transcripts
- For rough transcripts and to view the fake resumes, go to https://www.archpodnet.com/crmarchpodcast/288
Blogs and Resources:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Chris Webster: DIGTECH LLC
- Andrew Kinkella
Kinkella Teaches Archaeology (Youtube)
Blog: Kinkella Teaches Archaeology
ArchPodNet
- APN Website: https://www.archpodnet.com
- APN on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/archpodnet
- APN on Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/archpodnet
- APN on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/archpodnet
- Tee Public Store: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/archaeology-podcast-network?ref_id=5724
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology and Episode Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:22
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 288 for May 15th, 2024. I'm your host, Chris Webster. On today's show, we talk about who we would hire using some pretty good fake resumes that Doug put together. So it's time to get your own resume or CV updated because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:49
Speaker
Hey everybody, just before we start segment one, take a look at the show notes for this podcast over at www.artpodnet.com forward slash CRM art podcast, or just take a look down at your show notes because there are some fake resumes that Doug put together and the PDFs for those are linked here in the show notes. So take a look at those, please. If you want to follow along with what Doug put together, they're pretty good. All right. Onto the show. All right. Welcome to
Meet the Hosts and Podcast Format
00:01:14
Speaker
the podcast. Everyone joining me today is Heather in Southern California. Hi everybody.
00:01:19
Speaker
Andrew in Southern California. Hey everyone, how's it going? And Doug in Scotland. Hey everyone.
00:01:28
Speaker
And I'm calling in from rainy Florence, Oregon, where the rain never stops here in the springtime. So it's beautiful.
Handling Resume Reviews for California Project
00:01:35
Speaker
It's cozy. And I kind of love it because we're always in hot and dry areas, but that being said, we're going to quickly throw this over to Doug because we've got an interesting show format today and it's going to take a little bit of coordination and we want to make sure we get it right. So Doug, I'm going to throw it over to you. And in the meantime,
00:01:53
Speaker
Andrew and I are going to go ahead and mute so we can't hear what's going on. Here you go. All right, guys, we're doing this podcast a little bit different. We're taking you through the process of what happens when you sort of send your resume in. So at the beginning, we're going to have different podcast hosts are going to sort of take their, these resumes. I guess I have to sort of somewhat eat my words from a couple of months ago where I said,
00:02:17
Speaker
All those AI chat things are completely useless. I mean, they're completely useless for normal work, but I have used them to do up some fake resumes, which was really great to be able to put in a bunch of random stuff quite quickly. And we're basically going to go through this process. This first segment is going to be those first impressions.
00:02:38
Speaker
What's happened is projects come in. You've had 100 resumes. The project's going to be in California just because everyone else is based in California or California adjacent or have worked there. It's a year-long project. 100 resumes have come in. You need to do that first sort of sort, that look where you're just flipping through the resumes because you can't read through
00:03:03
Speaker
you know, 100 resumes in great detail. And we're going to go through that process of the flip and give you guys sort of an insight of how it happens and how different people
Evaluating Resumes: Education and Experience
00:03:13
Speaker
handle it. So first up I have is Heather, and she's going to take us through the first three resumes and just give us those first impressions and describe what she's seeing. And hopefully this will be a value to people who are listening, sort of see how this process works.
00:03:30
Speaker
basically maybe give you some ideas and we'll talk in later segments about some advice as well. So I think that is Andrew and Chris are out. And Heather, you're still here, right? Hey, I'm here. And we got about 45 seconds to a minute for each one, right?
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I mean, you have a hundred, you have a hundred and you can't really spend more than an hour and a half going through them. So got it on your marks. Get set. Give me resume a go resume a nor. Oh, I didn't really like the name Nora, but okay. All right. So PhD MA looks like interesting. There were some laps in between. So maybe let's see. Okay. Did she work in between?
00:04:16
Speaker
Okay, she is regional. She's done California and Germany. She has some field laboratory experience. Her PhD San Diego in anthropology. So. See.
00:04:32
Speaker
Yeah, she's pretty well-rounded. I like the fact that she's three pages. She's limited it to three pages is professional. Okay. I'll give her a chance, right? She's going into the yes pile. Okay. So that's, that's resume a done. All right, Heather, let's go with B. Okay. Here we go. Samuel. Okay. Samuel has, hmm. It's always nice when they have education first to me, but that's, that's okay.
00:05:03
Speaker
looking for.
00:05:05
Speaker
An objective statement, which I don't really, and that's it. Wow. Okay. So they, all they have, they have very minimal experience or they're only listing minimal experience, probably because they feel that they are supposed to keep this at a minute, or I mean, sorry, at one page, I'm supposed to keep it at a minute. Her, his skills, research, time management, excavation, critical thinking, field work, critical thinking. I don't,
00:05:34
Speaker
Personally, I wouldn't include critical thinking just because everybody's idea of critical thinking is not the others. All right, Heather, are you going to call it? Would you put him in the yes or no file? He's a maybe. He's a maybe. He's got some experience. He's a maybe. Who's a maybe? Of course, a yes. Okay. So I'm pulling up the next.
Resume Presentation: Style vs. Substance
00:05:53
Speaker
All right. Okay. Never hard for Reed.
00:05:57
Speaker
He has a master's in science, archeology specific. His thesis is GIS tracking, archeological field work in North Florida. Okay, so let's see. Does he have experience in California? He's got some experience in Arizona, in Texas, Louisiana, New Mexico, none in California, but he's got three publications. One interesting is,
00:06:24
Speaker
Okay, so it's interesting. His master's is in archeology at University of Florida, but it looks like his thesis is on shell minutes, or he has a paper on shell minutes along the California coastline. But there's nothing else that represents a California experience. This one makes me a little like, I would call him, but I would have some questions, because I'm wondering if this is,
00:06:52
Speaker
Really legit. All right. Well, we're, we're going to call it for there. So that's, that's your three interesting enough. And that quite his top work experience actually mentions California site recording Arizona. I know, but that is, I mean, that's, that's the thing when you're doing those, those quick 45 seconds impressions, which I don't do, but we'll talk about that later. That's why I don't like those.
00:07:20
Speaker
Okay. Cool. Cool. All right. Thanks so much, Heather. Yep. And we'll bring in Andrew. All right. I'm back. Excellent. We had a man. It blew through as a Heather made it through the first three. So yeah, you're starting out on a resume D there. Okay. Andrew. Again, it's, you know, you've got a hundred resumes come in. It's a project. It's about a year long project in California. You're looking at some survey excavation.
00:07:48
Speaker
Right. And yeah, if you want to unbox resume D, describe it as you go and your impressions. Okay. I'll tell you when time's up. Okay. So resume D, I just opened it. I'm looking at it for the first time. So this resume is one that's really, really
00:08:07
Speaker
colorful and over the top. I don't like these because it feels unprofessional to me. It feels like, look at me. I'm the younger generation. I'm fresh and energetic. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. I need you to be like professional, straightforward. What I see here is like there's a photo of the person on the left hand side, which I would never do that. I would not put a photo of yourself. And also the the font is kind of
00:08:35
Speaker
all over the place. It's different fonts. It's sort of, it's the showy resume. And I've seen things like this before. And this always is just like an immediate red flag in the first moment. I'm like, oh, honestly, when I see this, I'm like, ah, damn it. I want to give them a call before they turn it in and be like, dude, don't do this. So
00:08:58
Speaker
Well, Andrew, you're at a minute, so... Is it a yes or a no for you? Would you put this in the yes pile or no pile? This is initially at least in the middle pile or going towards the no. It also looks like overall the person doesn't have too much experience. Yeah, they have experience that's not local. You know, it feels like a young person just trying. It's a no for a serious job.
00:09:25
Speaker
OK, all right. Resume either man. All right. Give us give us your thoughts. Let's check this out. OK, so this is another one again with a photo where I'm like, don't don't do that. And there's a there's sort of a cloud motif on the on the top of it. Again, it's too showy. I want stuff like, hey, man, just give me a Times New Roman and list what you do. Let's see. This is someone, though, who has
00:09:55
Speaker
fieldwork like eight years or something of experience. This is good. Just just cruising through it. Yeah. OK. OK. Yeah. So as a yes or no, this is initially in the yes pile and a yes pile with a little bit of a question mark in my mind of why doesn't this person know how to make a more professional resume?
00:10:17
Speaker
Brilliant. Well, I'll take you out then, Andrew, and we'll bring Chris in for the sort of quick reviews of the last two. Cool.
Selection of Trainees: Experience vs. Potential
00:10:28
Speaker
I'm here. Thanks so much. Brilliant. All right, Chris, you have the last two. So it's starting with resume F.
00:10:36
Speaker
and resume G again, project in California, you've got a hundred resumes. You only got about a minute to look through it. It's a excavation survey sort of project. Pick your location in California if you want and yeah, unbox the first resume there. Give me your impressions and whenever you're ready.
00:10:57
Speaker
All right. Well, I've got the first one open here. And first off, the name just says Johnson, no first name or anything else. So that's almost an instant fail for me. Let's see. Just looking at the Bachelor of Arts. OK, that's no big deal. You got the apology. That's pretty common. It does say University of California, but it doesn't say where because I don't think there is a University of California. It's University of California at somewhere. Right. Is there a University of California? I don't even know.
00:11:27
Speaker
It's a University of California system. I guess so, but that's not very specific, is it? Because they're very different. Let's see. 2019 to present worked for the same company.
00:11:39
Speaker
Field crew member, dig deep archeology, the year before that, internship, internship, first aid OSHA 30, certified archeological field technician. Oh, fancy. Advanced GIS trading certificate. I mean... If you had a minute, would you put this person in the yes pile, the maybe pile, the no pile? I'd put him in the maybe pile, for sure.
00:12:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Sophia Martinez is the second one experience here, field school research department assistant. So this is a brand new person. No real field experience that seems paid right off the bat here, which is not a big deal projects, independent research project.
00:12:21
Speaker
professional memberships. Yep. She belongs to, oh, she went to RPA as a student affiliate. That's nice. Single page resume. I wouldn't expect too much more off of a person with really no experience, although you can flush these things out a little bit. I would put old Sophia here probably in the maybe pile. It would depend on
00:12:41
Speaker
It would depend on the size of my project and the number of people I really needed. Because if I have a lot of people, then there's room for somebody who can, who can use the training. If there's fewer people, then there's less room for people who need training. So, but I put Sophia in the maybe pile as well. Okay. Brilliant. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, Chris. I think we'll end the segment now and we'll come back for segment two, when all the hosts have a look at all the resumes and choose who they want to choose.
00:13:13
Speaker
Welcome back to the CRMARC podcast episode 288. And on this segment of our experimental hiring show, it's going to be my turn to go first. And Doug, what am I doing? Yeah. So this project you're on is part of a big federal funding for infrastructure and they're requiring contractors to at least have
00:13:35
Speaker
a certain number of trainees or hires, apprenticeships, whatever you want to call it. It's been passed down. You have to choose two people to be your field techs and then one person as sort of a trainee, you're bringing on board and going to be training. You have all those resumes. You've had a couple of minutes to look through them.
00:13:56
Speaker
Who are you choosing out of these resumes to be on your profits? The first two that were kind of easy for me were, first off, Johnson. I immediately thought failed just because I didn't know just from looking at it what their first name was, but down in the email here.
00:14:12
Speaker
I still don't know what their first name is, male, female. It doesn't really matter, I guess, in the end, but I like the experience. I like the field crew member experience. I like the key skills. You know, education is basically just a bachelor of arts in anthropology from somewhere in California, but I still like the experience and the job aspects behind it. So despite the fact that
00:14:33
Speaker
I don't know who this person is. Like I said, that really shouldn't matter. We really ought to just take names off of resumes, to be honest with you, because what is the difference, who the person is? It probably adds bias to it, to be honest with you. So I like that person just from their skills. And as far as a trainee goes, I like Isabella Garcia, only because she did an archeological field school in Tanzania. And I feel like we'd have a lot to talk about because I also did an archeological field school in Tanzania.
00:14:58
Speaker
And it was fun and entertaining. And I think we'd have, like I said, a lot to talk about. So if I've got to hire somebody who's a trainee, it doesn't really matter so much what their experience is. I mean, it does a little bit, but field schools are field schools and you never know really what they're going to get in a field school. So if you're just bringing them on to train them, as long as they have a good attitude and they want to come in and do stuff and anybody who's gone to Africa.
00:15:21
Speaker
and lived through it has got to have half an easy attitude. So I only didn't pick Sophia Martinez because she's also inexperienced and I already picked somebody. So because that was one of the ones I read in my segment and I just didn't pick her because I'd already picked a trainee. Nora Carroll, she's got a PhD. I'm sorry. I didn't pick her for a small project where I need field techs because she's got a PhD. I feel like I'm sorry to say this and be one of those cliches, but she's overqualified. She needs to be applying for a different job.
00:15:50
Speaker
Just cause she's not going to be happy with that, with that job. Let's see, Samuel Thomas. I just don't like Samuel Thomas's resume. I can't even get through it. It's poorly formatted and I don't even understand it. So Sam job, Eberhard Farid. Again, he's got a master's in archeology, master of science in archeology, which I like better than master of arts. Cause I also have a master of science. Although university in North Carolina, that's an instant, instant fail. Oh, my wife's got her headphones and she can't hear me.
00:16:18
Speaker
No, that's not bad. Actually, I think Eberhard Fareed would probably be my next hire only because Jane or James Smith has spelling errors and they just can't abide by spelling errors in your own name on your resume. That's a, that's an instant fail for me. If you didn't see that, or you didn't have somebody check that, then who knows what else you didn't have checked or seen. So I'm going to go with Eberhard. Let's see if I can organize these and Isabella and Mr. or Mrs. Johnson, them Johnson.
00:16:47
Speaker
Wow, Chris, man. You give him so much to discuss. So much to discuss, man. All the people under the bus for a PhD, hiring people because they went to a field school in Tanzania. Hey, you didn't give me a lot to go on.
00:17:05
Speaker
Well, this is what you get though, man. I hear you. You only have a piece of paper and that's the only information that's given to you. I hear you. Yeah. This is gold. Sorry, Chris, you played to all my stereotypes of what happens in hiring, which is... A hundred percent. Yeah, randomness there.
00:17:29
Speaker
Cool. Chris, I'm gonna, I'm going to take you out now and let's call in Andrew and see what, who he has. We'll see if he has a similar, similar hate of PhDs as that you do or a love of Tanzania like you do. We'll see. Hopefully he comes in and we'll, we'll see this hiring process and what happens.
00:17:54
Speaker
All right. All right, Andrew, you're here. I'm ready to roll. We've had an exciting first segment with Chris, and we'll go to you, Andrew. Cool. All right, Andrew, I think I explained it. I think you were still on when you heard you need to choose at least one trainee.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, big infrastructure projects coming down, government requirements for contractors to win it. They have to have trainees. Archaeology has been assigned one. You've got to choose three people, so two normal field techs and a trainee. Two normal and a trainee.
00:18:27
Speaker
Yeah, who have you gone with? Okay, so for me, the trainee was the easier one. So the trainee, I picked G, and this was obviously a student, but what I liked about it is they were honest. The resume was honest. Hey, I'm a student. This is my experience. It's not a lot, but it's honest, it's straightforward, and it's professional. So I'm going with G for the student. Now, in terms of the top two, that's a bit tougher.
00:18:54
Speaker
I think that that resume C was probably the star of the show for me. And what's so funny is, like, as we talk, I get a little worried because I'm like, oh, my God, I didn't have enough time to go through these. What if I'm screwing up? But what I looked for in these, of course, because we're doing this big project, is somebody with like a deep skill set, somebody who has kind of years under their belt. So C is definitely in now for the coveted last. That's ever hard for Eid, right? And then I believe, yes.
00:19:22
Speaker
Yeah, another one you chose was Sophia Martinez for the training. That is correct. And then so the last one is tough. It really was actually between three, which was A, B and E. A was Nora Carroll. Nora Carroll has a deep experience, like been around for a really long time. There's no real statement of purpose, but I liked Nora's, except if there was like a cover letter or cover sheet, because I need to know like,
00:19:50
Speaker
what they're doing. I just see their experience, but no focus of like, here's why I want this job. I thought B was good too, that's Samuel Thomas, although oddly short, his resume was oddly short. It weirdly cuts off. And then also E, who is James Smith. And I think
00:20:13
Speaker
Oof, this is tough. It's actually this final spot to me. I think it's either between A and E. In reality, I would look further under each of them just on the surface. I think I give it to E. I give it to James Smith because she's got a deep set of skills and has already been a senior archaeologist. So I thought that was pretty important. So that's where I'm going.
00:20:39
Speaker
You went with someone who had a picture in there with clouds as well. Yes. To pin me down what's funny in reality, it's like, maybe if it was a real job, maybe I've already done this wrong because that is such a red flag at the same moment. Again, I love this thought experiment because this is a person with really good skill sets and stuff, but did a messed up resume.
00:21:08
Speaker
You know so that that's what held me between sort of being a again in reality if a had told me a little bit more about themselves i'd go with a. You know so that's that's kinda where i'm at i'm see what then sort of a be depending and then g for the student to me was an easy choice.
00:21:28
Speaker
I think this is an interesting sort of how this has come about for you, because essentially, you almost been that person on that first shift. Yes. But you came back, and once you actually had a deeper look, you were basically like, oh, actually, they probably are one of the most experienced people there. Right. One you liked. Yeah. I think that really shows, though, what can happen when you're
00:21:56
Speaker
when you're putting in for a resume. It totally does. And in my experience, too, what's going to happen is what I would do is I'd bring these people in, you know, I'd bring I'd bring what was I think it was actually A&E. I think I said it wrong at one point. A&E were the two I was going to fight between. I'd bring them both in, have a interview with them and I'd know in like five seconds. You know what I mean? It'd be like one of them would be better than the other. Is this back to your whole you can bro out with the person?
00:22:25
Speaker
Yeah, I wouldn't know it's a professionalism aspect. You know, it's when they come in, do they know what's going on? Do I ask them questions and they come back at me with reasonable answers? You know, that's that's really what it is. The bro out thing was about college professors in, you know, oh, my God, they're going to have a office next to you for the next 30 years.
00:22:47
Speaker
Fair enough. Fair enough. All right, Andrew. I'll tell you this. Excellent, Heather. It's been interesting. Chris and Andrew have picked one and the same, but two of the other ones are different. So we're going to have an interesting third segment. But Andrew, if you want to jump out. So how many are we, how many are we picking? We've got two field techs and one trainee because, you know, federal contract, they're forcing all the contractors to do some training stuff.
00:23:15
Speaker
build up the sector, different sectors, construction, archeology has been assigned one. You have to choose at least one trainee and two field techs. And so Heather. One lead two.
00:23:28
Speaker
We need a crew lead, correct? You have a crew lead, so you don't need... Oh, I don't need a crew lead? No, you just need two techs. I take it you were looking at someone and you were like, this person is going to be my lead. Yeah, I had a lead, but okay, that's okay. That's all right. No, no. Does it change it though? Would you not pick that lead person to be a tech? It depends on the resume because that person needs to take direction to understand that
00:23:59
Speaker
The other person is going to be the lead and they're going to have to stand down. They can contribute, but they have to take leadership from somebody else. Who is this person? Which resume did you choose for this person or for this, this role? Eberhard. Eberhard. Okay. I had him for as, as a crew lead. Okay. So I'm going to go backwards. Okay.
00:24:21
Speaker
If we are going to have a trainee and the purpose of the trainee is to bring somebody in and train them in the ways.
00:24:32
Speaker
regionally and in archaeology in general, Isabella and Sophia, they are, you know, neck and neck, really. The only difference between the two is one has had experience in California, their field school or field experience was in California, and Isabella's is in Tanzania. So for that sake, I'm going to actually pick Isabella because the purpose here for having an intern is not to benefit the company, it's to benefit the intern. I'm going to give
00:24:59
Speaker
Isabella an opportunity to have experience in California to build her resume. And then I am for a crew lead. I'm going to have Samuel and Johnson. Okay. Why those two?
00:25:16
Speaker
So Samuel has some management. He has minimal experience, but he's a technician. He has some experience and I like to graduate crews. So I'd like to see people managing or not managing, but helping others, putting people in positions where even though they're not the leader, as long as they can take direction, that they can help other people that may have less. So it's almost like a staggered experience.
00:25:46
Speaker
If I have that opportunity, I like to do that. So I'm always looking for a stratified crew in order for everyone to be learning. Johnson has a decent amount of experience. He has six years experience.
00:26:00
Speaker
He has a BA for those who don't have access to the resume. Samuel is MA. He has a little bit of management, a little bit of experience. And I think let's give him an opportunity. I'm not picking Nora. She makes me nervous. I think honestly, it's just a pet peeve and I might be totally off base. I cannot stand it when people put
00:26:20
Speaker
travel awards on their professional resume. It doesn't make a difference to me. And to me, it gives me this idea that they think they're more important than they are. So don't do that. I mean, for me personally, I don't like those. She has 15 years of experience. She's never had a full time job, 15 years experience in CRM.
00:26:41
Speaker
She has a PhD. I don't know. She's going to be able to take direction very well. So especially now that I know she can't be a lead, I'm enough that I would automatically put her as a lead, but she's, she's out. She was out right away for me. Jamie, I'm, her MA is in, is Maya, no offense to Maya, an archeologist, archeologists, her, her experience. She has eight years in CRM, but I haven't seen like an increase.
00:27:09
Speaker
in what she's done with her career, I always wonder. And some people make that choice. So maybe that would be a conversation I would have with her for the interview before I make a selection. But I'd like to know why she's been working for eight years. I would ask the same thing for Nora. Is this a conscious decision? I don't want a full-time job, or I've really been trying to get a full-time job. There's a lot of movement back and forth on her resume that makes me a little
00:27:33
Speaker
That's it. Excellent. All right. Let's, uh, let's end this segment and we'll jump into the third segment where all the different hosts, you guys, well, I won't spoil it for you, but we'll bring it back in. And yeah, we'll see you in the third segment.
00:27:53
Speaker
Welcome back to the Sierra Mark Podcast, episode 288. And in this segment, Doug, how did we do? What's the results? Yeah, pretty much what I kind of expected and what I'm pretty sure everyone should sort of take away from this exercise is, yeah, there was one candidate you guys all chose, but beyond that, it was all over the place. You guys' reasoning is completely different. And now we're going to bring it over with, you know, what happens when it's a group decision.
00:28:22
Speaker
when you have to go through it and you have to make a group decision and that process, because this happens sometimes as well. It's not always just a single person doing the hiring. And yeah, you guys are about to see how that sort of negotiates and how that works out and how some people might get hired over others. So just to let everyone know, you guys all chose Eberhard as at least one of the techs, though Heather had him as sort of like a crew chief.
00:28:50
Speaker
level. And Heather, would you actually still keep them on as a field tech?
00:28:56
Speaker
I had, you know, I may, I may have, if I had, you know, followed the instructions properly, but I had him down where I thought he would be a good career lead. So maybe I would, I don't know. I, I, I still think he has, yeah. I mean, I think it would be between him and Samuel. Yeah. All right. See the other two did not choose Samuel at all, but we won't get into that quite yet. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's do it. Cause you guys all, well,
00:29:25
Speaker
not quite all chose different because there's only two choices, but there was Sophia and Isabelle for the sort of trainee level one. And you guys have chosen different ones. If we just, if I throw it through and you guys just do quickly explanation of why you chose them.
00:29:40
Speaker
And then let's debate and see who we'd actually pick. Andrew, who'd you choose for the training and why? I chose Sophia because her resume I felt was more honest and it did not have a photo. I hate it when people include a photo. It's so unprofessional, right? So, and her first line is like energetic and motivated student with a keen interest in archaeology. That's what I want to hear. It's straightforward. You know, there's just no BS in this. It feels like
00:30:07
Speaker
Here's my experience. It's not much but I'm eager to do more. I like it First off if you didn't have an interest in archaeology, why would you be doing this? So that seems obvious and just like fluff and a waste of time to put on paper, but I chose
00:30:26
Speaker
Since the exercise was to pick somebody who was a trainee, I didn't really care about what was on their resume. I thought they were both formatted well. I don't care about pictures because in the era of social media, I'm probably going to know what you look like anyway, right? So I don't really care about that. And if I'm going to look you up on social media, I'm going to want to be able to find the right person and
00:30:44
Speaker
chances are lining you up by picture is going to be helpful because likely there's lots of Isabella Garcia's and lots of Sofia Martinez's, but I chose Isabella because ultimately, again, they're both trainees and we're going to train both of them. But Isabella went to field school in Tanzania, as did I, and I would want to talk to her about that. I think it'd be interesting. I think it'd be entertaining. If you can't, listen, if you can't chill out and talk to somebody during great time about something cool, then what the hell's the point?
00:31:13
Speaker
All right. Heather, I think you chose Isabella as well, right? I did. I did. I chose Isabella. Now I get it. If, if she, if either one had experience, you know, a few years behind them, I also would not like the pictures and all the fluffiness and all that kind of stuff. So I agree with Andrew and Chris cause he mentioned that too, but I do with brand new people, I, I figured they don't know, they haven't been told.
00:31:37
Speaker
They need to be told, and I would tell them. And when I meet them, I will say, listen, don't do that on your resume, but I'm not going to hold it against them. I pick Isabella because she did, because if I'm going to, the purpose of having an intern is for the benefit of them, not the company. So I'm not looking at that aspect. What I'm looking at is who's going to be able to help the most. And there's any major red flags that would discount somebody. So there's no major red flags to me.
00:32:05
Speaker
I picked Isabella because she went to Tanzania. She needs to build her resume and have some California or US experience. And so to benefit her, since Sophia already has the California experience, I gave it to Isabella. Right.
00:32:20
Speaker
Andrew, are you convinced to make the change or are you going to double down? I'm doubling down. Although I hear the argument, it's totally fine. I think this is great. If we chose Isabella, I wouldn't be like, I'm leaving this company today. Completely understandable. But I would just double down because I just chose
00:32:45
Speaker
the flip side of the same coin, meaning I saw that Sophia had local experience. So I was like, oh, she's already interested in this. She already has a bit of a leg up. This will be awesome. So I'm like the opposite of Chris. I'm like, oh, since you have this local stuff like you're you're you've already shown you have interest in it and you can complete it. So you won't like drop out after four days. Hmm. That's fair. And one convinced to change their mind. No, no, no. But the vote wins and the other person gets it.
00:33:14
Speaker
I'm only not convinced, not convinced because I know we already won. So it really doesn't. Yeah, I mean, true, true. You guys and Andrew, you weren't slightly put off by Sophia's like she's only looking to do stuff to further her academic studies, not to do a career. I didn't notice that, you know, I would. And again, in reality, kind of like Heather said at the beginning, I would have gone through this more, you know, closely. I was flying through it to try and yeah, these are you miss things.
00:33:41
Speaker
Yeah, very quick. Yeah. So I get that. And in reality, again, I love doing this because this is exactly what happens. I've had a thousand meetings like this hiring people where we talk back and forth and we argue back and forth. You know, so this is great.
00:33:55
Speaker
Well, I mean, it's great for Isabelle, not so much Sophia. Sorry, Sophia. She gets voted out. And Andrew is now going to quit the company because they can't pick out talent. Exactly. Can we nix people and then get it down to, or are we just going to say who we picked? And we can get out that way.
00:34:22
Speaker
Now here's the hard part is because you guys, so yeah, there was obviously pretty easy cause there was just two trainees. You all chose Eberhart. Um, which is funny. We're going to have a conversation at the end about that. But yeah, you guys all kind of went with different people. We'll just, we'll go in reverse. Heather, who would be your, your choice for that, that third last and last position? Johnson, Johnson. Yeah.
00:35:02
Speaker
I just didn't like his resume.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, his resume. I had Johnson. I actually had Johnson and Jamie were. I don't think I'm going to select it ever hard. I really don't just because. Yeah, I don't know. I'm stuck
Consensus on Tech Role Selection
00:35:20
Speaker
now. Maybe because I didn't follow the directions. But I for me, Johnson's a definite. He's in Samuel. It would be between Samuel and and probably ever hard, I guess for my other two. Jamie and Nora are out. All right.
00:35:36
Speaker
I'm i actually misread my notes so i never had jamie with samuel samuel and johnson and then i guess maybe i would switch ever hard out for samuel but i'm keeping johnson okay yeah i think we'll just wait on timeline will ever hard cuz everyone else voted that's fine chris who did you have.
00:35:57
Speaker
I had Johnson and Johnson, I don't know is Heather, you keep saying he, which I, you know, but we don't know what Johnson is because Johnson doesn't have a first name. Right. So, and I was, I was kind of making the point in my segment was, you know, maybe we should take names off of CVs and resumes because it does kind of put in a little bit of bias there to begin with. But then how do you do your email address? I don't know. It was a whole confusing thing. But anyway, we really care if somebody's male or female, honestly, but
00:36:21
Speaker
Well, no, but some people do and they're biased by that. You know what I mean? And it's not even male or female. It's often just like ethnicity as well. Right. I mean, some people have these biases that they don't even understand her in their brains and they may not hire somebody because of whatever crazy reason. Right. But I didn't pick Sam or Jane, not Jamie, because she spelled her fricking name wrong. Right. If you look at her email address, it's Jane Smith, not Jame Smith or Jamie. That's what I thought at first. So that was out immediately for me. If you can't spell your name right or have that double checked.
00:36:51
Speaker
Yeah. And then Sam, I didn't even get through his resume because I don't understand it. Like I was looking at it and it's poorly formatted and I was just like, this is too confusing for my eyes to just like land on something. So I'm not even going to read it. So even though he may have a lot of good experience, I just, it's, it's weird. This whole bucket thing, like his experience looks like a shovel test profile and I just can't understand it.
00:37:13
Speaker
Yeah. I had Jamie out too because she had, I didn't notice the name misspelling, but I did notice Berkeley or California spelled wrong California Berkeley. And there's multiple misspellings throughout. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that was out.
00:37:30
Speaker
Nora, I didn't pick because, well, she's got a PhD, and I have a small crew, and she's not looking for a high enough position, to be honest with you. This is not a position that would suit her skill levels if she's there, and I can't afford to pay her what she's looking for. Now, if she pleaded her case and said, listen, I don't care, I just need a job, then, you know, whatever. Also, she works for Elon Musk, so there's that, because her email is x at x.com. So. These wins.
00:38:01
Speaker
But no, I picked Johnson because I just liked, I liked the experience. I think that the resume looks decent and you know, there you go.
00:38:07
Speaker
I don't, I, in fact, I would, I'd be hard, hard pressed to hire Nora for anything. She'd have to really wow me on the interview. I don't like me at all. I think it's high handed. I think it's stuffy. I think she thinks a lot, a lot of herself because she has a PhD yet. She's never had a full-time position. She hops all over the place. She's 15 years in the business and she still doesn't have a job yet. To me, the major red flags. Yeah.
00:38:37
Speaker
Interesting.
00:38:39
Speaker
Andrew. All right. So this is the one where I will blow with the wind a little bit. I had a tough time picking a clear second. I think it's cool that we all picked Eberhard. To me, that was easy. Like Eberhard was the shoe in one. And I was just thinking I'm as two positions with archaeologists with some experience. And I ultimately landed on I was, you know, shaky, but I landed on misspelled Jamie's Jane Smith.
00:39:08
Speaker
I didn't notice that that many of the misspellings until kind of like right as I was talking. But because she had local experience and kind of deep local experience, I was looking for somebody who had some stuff going back, you know, not just two years. Like and and it seemed like she had been in it the whole time and moving up position wise in the last, like, you know, whatever it is, like six years or.
00:39:32
Speaker
eight years. So I was like, that looks really good. So, but as I, as I said before, in reality, it's like, I'd, I'd have like two or three people come in and I'd interview them and see what's up, you know, cause then you can tell in two seconds, but I would definitely put her in. I did not. I had Johnson straight out because it's one name. I'm like, are we doing the share thing now? Johnson. Yeah. You know, I'm like, no, you know, you need to put your name on there.
00:40:02
Speaker
Yeah, I thought it was weird. In just a few seconds, it didn't even occur to me just because I was trying to breeze through these. Maybe that probably would have made me question, but I really wasn't crazy. Jane and Nora were out for sure.
00:40:24
Speaker
You know, I like Eberhard just because I think he's he looks like he's serious. Like he's moving. He's he's getting a lot of experience. And the stuff that he has is experience that you can tell he's taken initiative. You can see it in his resume. Like he's not just showing up to work. He's taking initiative and asking to do things. Yeah. And you can see that in his he's moved around. He's also he's a Johnny on the spot. He's willing to move. He's willing to go to different places.
00:40:52
Speaker
Yeah, so yeah, I think, you know, he also has. You know, it's interesting, some of his publications are in different areas, so I mean, he really does move around. I think to me, again, we're assuming and you'd learn more in the interview, but it seems like he's trying to build a career, right? He's trying to really. Yeah, he's he's taking this very seriously, so.
00:41:18
Speaker
I would have been cool with Nora, which is resume A, Samuel Thomas, which is resume B, or the Jamie Smith one, which is resume E. I would have been cool with any of those three. To wrap it up, Andrew, are you willing to go with Johnson? Have you been convinced to go there, or is this another? I am not going with Johnson, but I'll go with any of those other guys.
00:41:42
Speaker
I'm like one name and not that much experience. I can't get Austin Powers out of my head right now. Johnson. You guys all went with Everheart and no one was put off by like the fact that every single line is a bullet point. Nothing. Oh, I don't do stuff.
00:42:01
Speaker
That's okay. I honestly, I feel like this is, I feel like this is almost my resume. Like it looks like the formatting is very similar. I mean, not everything is a, not every single line is a bullet point. I mean, there's bullets underneath like certain things, but you have to really, you have to consider who's been telling him, like what his, I really am, unless the person comes off like Nora does as
00:42:30
Speaker
Yeah, but I already explained it. That's so funny. North doesn't come off like that to me at all. It's just a list of stuff. It comes off very neutral to me. Yeah. Hold on, guys. Hold on, because this is super funny. I know. I can't keep it any longer.
00:42:44
Speaker
One, Everheart is Chris. That is Chris's resume. I took the formatting. Oh, that's hilarious. I thought I looked hilarious. I changed, like, locations and degrees. But basically, other than, like, names, I changed the names. And then I also, like, it's from Chris's CV. I think I cut off after a couple of jobs. I didn't include the military stuff because I figured that was too much of a giveaway.
00:43:09
Speaker
Literally, that is almost anything other than names. It's basically Chris's resume. We love you, Chris. Even when we don't know it's you, we love you. I know. That's why I said I was attracted to it. I was like, this is great.
00:43:26
Speaker
That's hilarious. Oh, it gets funnier, guys. It gets funnier. Norah is Andrews. You think I'm a stuck-up asshole, I guess. I guess you don't even hire me. Whatever. I storm out again. I storm out two times from this meeting.
00:43:45
Speaker
That's hilarious. I recognized it in a second, though. I was like, oh, yeah, here it is. So nice. Hilarious. Right. In my. OK, so but you if you were doing a CRM, you would not write any resume like no, I would. This is my sort of just basic one that floats around the Internet of like just sort of like, hey, here's just all the stuff I did, because it really is just a list of stuff.
00:44:08
Speaker
You know, it's like, yeah, because now this is on your, on your actual and Andrew honors and awards is at the top, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. No, just, it's just a picture of me podcasting like that. Actually, I can see the, I can see the better cause Heather's like, uh, Heather was to say her hard no came when you like listed your travel award. Yeah. But that's typical academic stuff.
00:44:33
Speaker
You know, like that's the way you put that. Not for CRM. And I just like, you have to know your, you have to know your audience. Very fair. Heather, I couldn't find a CV of yours online or resume. So I couldn't like put yours. That guy I hired to scrub my social media or whatever. It worked. Nice. Where's yours, Doug?
00:45:00
Speaker
Well, I ran out of time. I was going to put mine in and actually, so like Johnson, it was so interesting.
Revealing the Hosts' Biases
00:45:09
Speaker
We had this conversation. Literally I did a fake name and I can't remember what it, like a fake name generator. One of the worst things was actually converting like stuff from like the chat to chat.
00:45:23
Speaker
You did a lot of work, dude. Yes, thank you. Microsoft templates suck so bad. They use tables and the formatting goes crazy as soon as you hit second pages.
00:45:40
Speaker
eight hours of work to do this struggling with formatting. And I actually, I was doing it at the very last minute. And so like that Johnson, I didn't even catch it. It was part of the formatting, trying to paste it in. It didn't paste in their, uh, their first name. Right.
00:45:55
Speaker
And actually, again, another mistake on the Jane Smith, it was a different name, but it was too weird of a name. And I just looked at the like fake email. I quickly typed and I hit M instead of N. So those were not like purposeful. Like California is so wrong. There's others. Well, it's also coming from your chat, GV. I'm sure if you guys had read through everything, there'd be some sentences you're like,
00:46:21
Speaker
That doesn't quite make that much sense. Yes. True. Yeah. But yeah, so I mean, it was, it was there. It was enough to get us through the thing, but yeah, I think you guys haven't sort of been there for the first two segments. If I could sum it up for like all the listeners is like, yeah, people were, you guys were choosing a whole bunch of different reasons.
Conclusion and Reflections on Hiring Exercise
00:46:41
Speaker
Like Chris was, uh, Xing Nora because of a PhD Heather was Xing Nora because she was just, you know, Nora stuck up and just a total jerk.
00:46:51
Speaker
I just felt like I knew her somehow and I just like rubbed wrong. I just had a really bad feeling. Chris was just like instantly for like resume B is just like, I hate the formatting. It's done. This person dead to me.
00:47:08
Speaker
Chris also was like, uh, Tanzania, man. I'm like, he, he chose the person, the most random thing of, of Tanzania. But like, and then he came down to like, literally you guys split on this person has foreign experience and it'd probably be more helpful going back to Heather's. It'd be more helpful for them if they got local experience. And then like, but actually Andrew was like, Sophia has local experience. More dedication. So we should give them the job. I mean,
00:47:36
Speaker
three different people and yeah, other than everyone choosing Chris for some reason. I have visceral hate like Chris had with Thomas for the formatting of too many bullet points, Chris. Too many bullet points. It works, man. It works. I do think that this one lesson here to be learned, one of them is
00:47:59
Speaker
If you are an academic and you want to go into CRM, you really do have to rethink your resume. Yeah, I do see this a lot. And you need to read the room. You need to know who you're trying to sell yourself to. And you can't swap out a academic resume for it. It just doesn't. Unless it's a very specific like research archaeologist role. But still, you need to pepper it with some more CRM experience if you haven't.
00:48:29
Speaker
I think also one thing is when you guys were doing those basic sifting, like Andrew basically got rid of Jane because he really hated the clouds and the picture. But when he took a further look, I mean, she actually has, I think the most experienced. She has deep experience, yeah.
00:48:45
Speaker
Yeah, like more experience and maybe even Chris. I have to go back and look at the times and stuff. But again, I'm nervous when I see somebody who has a lot of experience with an MA and still never had a... I guess I'm assuming they haven't had a full-time job. Yeah, now it looks pretty heavy. Yeah, to me that always...
00:49:02
Speaker
makes me wonder. Like, I mean, if you're going for a job in, you know, this kind of a survey, obviously you don't have a full-time job. So there's either a decision and that's something that needs to be sussed out during an interview. You got to find out why, why, why have they not had a full-time job? I guess, uh, so to sum it up, so, cause I can tell Chris is like getting nervous about like the time on this last segment. Yeah. It's, it's, if I, if I can leave like any of our listeners with one thing is like, don't get discouraged if you get
00:49:33
Speaker
if you get a lot of rejections. You might be being rejected for a lot of different reasons and different choices. As you saw, if someone different had looked at your resume, you might have gotten the job easily. You guys all chose almost different people except for Chris. Of course, if I had been able to vote, I would have
00:49:54
Speaker
I would have, I would have won. I could have convinced you all of you guys to drop Eberhart just for the format. But then even then you guys, there wasn't even consensus and you run into that, especially when there's panels, they put three people on a panel so that two can vote the other one away basically. And that's, that's how it goes. And you could have actually
00:50:18
Speaker
been in the running, you could have had one person really, really going for you. But unfortunately, the other person that happened to have gone to Tanzania, and that's how they got the job, like complete random stuff. Yeah, that's, that's, that's why I sort of want to like
00:50:34
Speaker
send away from people. I think there are things you can do. You guys all didn't quite like some of the formatting on different CVs. Spelling mistakes obviously are going to hurt you. There's these little things that might eliminate you before you get there. But once you get there, it's a bit random. I think that's the summary. Unless anyone else wants to add anything. Nope. No, I think
00:50:57
Speaker
I think honestly after this experience we probably could do another show soon-ish given the hiring season that we're in right now for the summer field season that you know we could we could probably have a deeper discussion of the do's and don'ts of resumes and things which we've done in the past but it's good to have this in this season so maybe we'll consider this in the future soon so with that thanks Doug this was a great topic and we will see everybody next time.
00:51:23
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there.
00:51:51
Speaker
Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions. We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere and we want to know what you want to know about. Thanks to everyone for joining me this week. Thanks also for the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the field. Goodbye. Bye everyone. See you guys next time.
00:52:06
Speaker
It really seems like you're just going through the motion and I could buy, like it's really lacking the passion. If I was reading your, this is a CD statement, I would kind of be like, well, this person doesn't have passion. You're not getting the sift. Way too many bullet points. Sorry, Eberhard. Duck, you're fired. My new code name is Nora.
00:52:33
Speaker
I'm shy.
00:52:42
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Rachel Rodin. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com.