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Episode 32 - Part 3: The added level of detail required in Level 3 reports
64 Plays1 year ago
In this final part of episode 31 with Tim Kenny, we discuss what type of added detail is required in a Level 3 report to comply with the Home Survey Standard.
Key Points:
- Understanding Further Investigations: When and how to recommend further investigations in Level 3 survey reports and avoiding caveat-based recommendations.
- Complying with Standards: Importance of adhering to home survey standards and distinguishing between different scenarios that necessitate further investigations.
- Dealing with Defects: Identifying and addressing defects properly, especially in traditional buildings, while ensuring compliance and protection against liability.
- Knowledge Gaps and Training: Recognizing knowledge gaps in assessing defects and further investigations, and the value of continuous learning to fill these gaps.
- Energy Efficiency and Climate Change: Differentiating the levels of reporting with respect to energy efficiency and climate change risk, and providing comprehensive energy-related recommendations at Level 3.
Recommended
Transcript
When to Recommend Further Investigations - Challenges
00:00:00
Speaker
In our final part of this episode with Tim Genny, we're discussing added detail in level three reports versus sort of level two. So um I think the first bit that would be interesting to to discuss is, um so I suppose, when and how to recommend further investigations in a level three. And i and i with that, potentially, when does recommending further an investigations become too caveat-based? and Yeah. and annoying. Yeah, first first thing I'll say on it is that, yeah i've again, I've seen and heard opinions from surveyors who say, if you have to recommend further investigation on level three, you're not competent to do it. That's garbage. I'll just flat out say I'm not even gonna, you know, try and make sugarcoat my answer on that one.
Compliance with Home Survey Standards
00:00:44
Speaker
um in In fact, I would go say go further to say there are situations where if you are not recommending further investigations within any level of report, your reports are not compliant with the home survey standards. If you're not recommending them in certain situations, you are not complying with the home survey standards. Very clearly, again, there is more work to be done to express the requirements around further investigations clearer in standards. But one of the things they say is that, okay, one, You can't use a further investigation just because you can't see something. right so I can't see a flat roof. and I'm sat here with a dorm window in front of me. I couldn't see that flat roof from from ground level.
00:01:23
Speaker
um I can't say further investigations just because I can't see it.
Guidance on Investigation Standards Needed?
00:01:27
Speaker
That's that's not an acceptable choice. I have to say, no, I can't see it. But however, if I was seeing a defect elsewhere that could be affecting that roof, that that section that I can't see, then I have to recommend further investigation. In fact, the standards say you must recommend further investigation. So we know In an RICS guidance document that uses the word must, that is obligatory, it's not an optional, should allow some wriggle room, must is definite. So if you see a defect, and that defect may but may be affecting an additional element of the building, you have to recommend further investigation.
RICS Guidance on Building Defects
00:02:02
Speaker
So key one there for me is damp to a ground floor wall. So if the the ground floor wall is damp, chances are the other floor that abuts that wall
00:02:11
Speaker
it's going to be damp. it's either you know There's either a damp problem underneath it or there's something else happening. But you know if there were two are in connection, one is unlikely to be dry and the other is unlikely to be wet. If it's been going on long enough, they will be similar. So if you've got a damp wall, you're going to have to investigate the floor. The the the HCS says you have to hss says you must investigate that floor. Of course, we have to really well define what we mean by investigate that floor. Perhaps we we'll touch on that when we talk about DAMP specifically. um But it says you have to do it. Now, of course, the challenge slightly when it comes to level three surveys is that
00:02:51
Speaker
under the description of the service ah in their home survey standards, it says that recommendations for the investigation should be an exception, not the rule at level three. Which personally I feel is a slightly unhelpful thing because in one section we're saying you you have to do it in these circumstances. In the next section we're saying, you know, don't do it too much. Which is it? You know, it's either a requirement or it's not. Now, I think what what they're trying to say there, and I think what it needs to be a clarity on is that, obviously, further investigations are not only required because you you know you've got an element that might be affected by another other element that needs some investigation.
Confusion in Standards and Clarity Issues
00:03:33
Speaker
um Sometimes you need a further investigation to determine the extent of a defect. right Just because physically you can't get it get at what's happening within this within one element, so it's not just a different element. It's an element that you can see, quite often, we for example again we use the example of,
00:03:48
Speaker
damn you know we got down it all We can't quantify it, we can't establish certain certain parameters, so we need to investigate that further. um
00:04:00
Speaker
But it doesn't explicitly say that in the home survey standards. It doesn't doesn't doesn't say that's an example of when you can use it. It doesn't kind of clarify that. um So what we're left with this is this clear idea of, yep, you have to do it in here, but you probably shouldn't do it too much. It doesn't work. you know waiting but But I think because prison's used because they've used that phrase in there, that's led some people to believe, OK, well, ah you know I have to avoid further investigations, or I can't say that. um But you know it it does perhaps touch back a little bit to to what we said what we were saying under about whether you're competent to do a level three.
Defining Further Investigations - A Knowledge Gap?
00:04:36
Speaker
um If you find yourself constantly referring back for further investigations, there may be something missing in in your knowledge, that there's something you're perhaps not understanding. And for me, the way I help clarify that to people is to say, okay, well, if you're if you don't know what those further investigations should look like, if you cannot accurately define them, and one of the requirements under a Level 3 is that you should be explaining what those further investigations will look like,
00:05:08
Speaker
um If you can't say, you know, they should do X, Y, and Z, and it should be this person that does it, and he might find this thing or this thing, then probably you're just doing it as a caveat. You're doing it because maybe you lack knowledge. you know and And that's, you know, great a great question thing to ask any student as soon as they say further investigation required is, okay, what further investigations? And then if they don't know that, you know that they just kind of, there's a lack of knowledge and there's is a gap they need to be filled, which is, and again, I would say to people, don't be scared of identifying a gap in your knowledge. I love it when I find a gap, because I can then go out and I can fill that gap. yeah you yeah i can but I can plug that hole, um and we all have gaps in our knowledge that we didn't know we had until we we bump up against them, and we plug in with them and go along.
Fear of Liability and Investigation Recommendations
00:05:53
Speaker
Has it also been driven by um the fear of claims at some point? If we don't cover ourselves, we're putting ah you know some sort of further investigation recommendation than that I'm likely to get a claim, perhaps. Is that is that driving? There's there's ah there's a ah big, big, big element of of that, i which is which I think is difficult. um And it's difficult because personally, I don't see where that's come from, because I've not seen any specific evidence that condition-based surveying is a high risk of claims. Realistically, whether that's in my own personal experience or conversations with other people, I mean, yeah, we we all get claims. andve I've had a claim, that's fine, it happens. We we all we all make errors or or things happen or what have you. um it's It's not a problem. But they don't happen that often. And when they do, within the within the surveying residential conditions of any context, they're relatively low value.
00:06:49
Speaker
You know, the average claim, I mean, obviously we have the big outlier of heart and large and and and fine, but most of it is in the couple of grand, two, 3000, it's not big figures. You know, I get that we've had indemnity insurance prices went up a while ago, they're coming back down again from what I can see, but that wasn't because of claims. Again, I'm not seeing any information, I'm not being presented with any information, I've not been told by anybody, including brokers, or insurers that that was due to claims, that was due to other factors within the market. So, yeah, and I mean, you know like I can also make a point that just because you recommend a further investigation, I don't think you automatically protect yourself either.
00:07:32
Speaker
And I think this is perhaps a good point to talk about AMP specifically, because I would actually say that if you recommend the wrong further investigation, or you're unclear on the investigations that should take place. And if a client then acts upon that recommendation and gets the wrong subsequent advice, does the wrong thing, then you as the surveyor are more likely to be found liable than the contractor that did the work. So I give the example of injecting a chemical downproof course in a solid walled listed building. So if you were to inject a downproof course,
00:08:07
Speaker
It's not going to be a good idea, but just may i exclude the kind of the the pointlessness of it and and the potential damage to the building. From a a listing point of view, if you you should require you should get listed building consent for injection chemical DPC. Most people probably don't really think about that. um But if I, as ah as a home owner, as a surveyor, have just put in my report, I found down go away and get further investigations from a ah PCA DAMP specialist. DAMP specialist comes in, says, yeah, inject a DAMP, of course, because too many of them do. And they go ahead and do it. Conservation officer comes along and says, all right, why do you do that? You know that's that you need to get ink get get consent. Homeowner is at risk.
00:08:54
Speaker
when they they had a survey, so they didn't tell them it was a bad idea, you know, who were they going to look at the surveyor? So I can, there was a, you know, you could clearly follow that trail to the surveyor still being liable, even though they think they've covered themselves with a further investigations.
Effective Damp Treatment in Reports
00:09:08
Speaker
How would you handle that scenario out of interest in terms of how how would you word that type of um a recommendation or on advice? I mean, I would very clearly say this issue is unlikely to be resolved by the injection of a chemical damp recruit course. you know Fundamentally, we'll we'll include that advice. We we know it it's true. we We need to be really clear and strong in that that advice. you know we We need to take that step to say, you know do it it's gonna if you do it, it's a bad idea. If you do it, it's going to be reached to the listing, you know even if it's but even if it's not listed. We know
00:09:40
Speaker
a DPC, particularly ajet a DPC in ah and in the outside wall of a cavity wall is fundamentally pointless. With an existing DPC, inject a new one, that's not really doing anything. yeah so you know the way The way I tend particularly you know i tend to approach further investigations on on damp is the first thing we have to be be clear about is the use of an electronic moisture meter is he's very limited. It doesn't directly tell us that it's damp. To comply with the the joint position statement, we should be saying these are some of the other ways that you can investigate the moisture content of the walls. List ones that might be most most relevant, but also note that they are tend to be invasive, taking samples or what have you. um Go on to say, okay, yeah you need further investigation. Specify who should carry that out, whether us it's an independent specialist or PCA or whatever your platform is for doing that.
00:10:39
Speaker
but also say what those investigations are going to be. So again, this is where we come back to our joint position statement, talking about different types of moisture investigation. Obviously we talk about some of the possible causes and we talk about some of the possible remedies. And in that we can talk about the remedies that aren't relevant, you know, ejecting the damper, of course. But we also need to say, then we jump over to flaws, further investigations required, And that investigation should involve lifting the floor coverings and lifting the carpet. And and and for me, that's a very strict thing in that because you cannot investigate. Typically, we were talking about a first floor wall or a roof leak or whatever, find that's separate. But we're talking about dampening the ground floor wall.
00:11:23
Speaker
you cannot investigate that wall without investigating the floor. You have to get that floor program, you have to look underneath that floor. and And for me, just that simple little line in that, and I would put that line in level i put that line in level two as well, um that for me protects your client against the well-meaning but perhaps uninformed dance specialist who comes along with these dance meters and taps it against the wall and gets one reading and goes, that group of course.
Understanding Damp and Building Materials
00:11:49
Speaker
because hopefully then they'll come along. In fact, that what I actually say is you should not consider the investigations complete unless floorboards and floor coverings have been lifted and the subfloor void has been physically inspected. So if they then get the report back that says, well, I talkeded my dad touched touched my down meter and got some high readings, didn't look under the floor, they know that that investigation is not complete and they shouldn't rely on it. If they choose to rely on it, that's a choice they're making contrary to your advice as the surveyor. So you're you're kind of more effectively covered.
00:12:18
Speaker
I think it's a nice example of how you can um add details to the advice to make it clearer and and provide more. I'm imagining having done quite a lot of training, you're listing quite a few examples of how people suggest they might investigate. Are there examples you see where either people are too eager in certain parts of the property to ah recommend an investigation or or conversely, um they don't where they should. and Yeah, yeah. It's a really good example of the over eager to recommend further investigation. I use an example of a modern building 2017 trust rafter roof installation laid all the way across. So you know, good 300 mil as it should be. Running through it, you've got
00:13:04
Speaker
a duct for mechanical ventilation. Underneath it, you've got some staining around the vent in an ensuite shower room. ah The question I always put to students is, okay, well, this this is what we've got. We've got this stain here. We can see the duct running through the roof space, picture taken from the hatch because you know getting all the way across there is not advisable because you can't do it safely. um What do you do next? and And the common response is always going to be to have investigations required. and And I've had similar things from from qualified surveyors as well, because, of course, they can't see the base of where they can't see where that duct fits into the into the unit. They can't see the problem. Which is a logic to that, is it further investigate it further? but To me, the logic fails insofar as there is only a limited number of defects that that this situation can be causing. We as a surveyor can
00:13:58
Speaker
be fairly safely assume what that range of defects is. We can narrow it down, can't we? we know that it's kind you know You know that it's not sat at the edge of the building, there's no roof leak, so it's not water pouring in. We know that it's some kind of issue with condensation on the duct and it's draining down, and fundamentally that's what it is. Exactly, because the duct is tucked underneath the insulation in the roof space and there's all sorts of other problems going on. But it's not My response is, okay, well, what's the investigation? Investigation could be to to go over there and look at it, but what's the repair? what's the What are the likely repairs? Well, they involve going over there and looking at it and fixing it. you know If it is something that could be fixed by the competent contractor on on the stuff they have in their van, it's not an investigation. An investigation is to go out and find out what the problem is,
00:14:45
Speaker
So then go and get the equipment or to go and tell somebody else or get somebody else in to deal with it. If it's just going to be if you can investigate and address at the same time, and if you can and again, this takes the the knowledge and experience to be able to narrow down the range of defects. So again, if you can't narrow that range of defects down, you probably need to increase your level of knowledge before you, before you kind of inspect that building. You know, again, these are good ways of telling yourself, okay, well, I'm maybe I'm not not competent, because I can't narrow down the range reasonably. You know, you can't foresee what the issues that ah that that have been created. Yeah, if the if the same guy's gonna investigate it and fix it in the same job, that's not an investigation. yeah that it And these are the examples where we're're we're not doing it enough, as far as I'm concerned.
00:15:30
Speaker
or we're doing it too much, we yeah but but're we're covering ourselves and we could just be be giving some useful information. Yeah, they're nice examples I think on both both ways, how you how you provide better um understanding of what to do next in terms of an investigation or where you can just eliminate it from the report. Yeah, i and i don't I don't see many examples of where people don't recommend further investigations where they should, which I think comes back to the point we touched about about concerns about liability and everything else, if not, that's not something that happens, which is for good or bad. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So I think that that's um yeah been quite interesting. and I know with Dan specifically, you you raised there was sort of ah times where you might add more detail. There
00:16:14
Speaker
different things you might add just in terms of general advice rather than investigations? Or is it tend to does the detail yeah to come from sort of recommending an investigation? Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's always going to be good down to the down to the individual property, isn't it? And court and everything else. I think we need to certainly as as one of the kind of maybe the the The level of knowledge that's lacking in in some sort of area, particularly when looking at traditional buildings, is is that better understanding of vapor permeability or or breed of breathability is referred to the different paint times. you know Some people are good with with maybe with the lime plaster and the lime mortar, but also thinking about
00:16:49
Speaker
paint finishes and how whether they have the vapor permeability and whether they can affect it. So we need to be you know oh we need to be including that advice as part of the maintenance information we give within our level three surveys as well. But we certainly need to be thinking about it in terms of how we we we consider damp issues. you know move we we need I do feel that as a profession, there is still this slight gap in knowledge. We have people kind of going out and doing level three surveys. you know and saying dam for the investigation or damper or damper of course, in there that that happens more often than it than it ever should. It shouldn't happen at all on a traditional building, but it's still out there and that's I think we do need to build more knowledge within the profession.
00:17:31
Speaker
Interesting. Okay. And that that ties in nicely, I think, with a couple
EPC Ratings and Report Discrepancies
00:17:36
Speaker
of other points. And we've discussed these on another podcast episode with with Kate Darrington around sort of um energy matters, but probably more so climate change risk. But how does that side of the report in a level three differ to a level two in terms of what you're meant to put in or comment on? nope So level one, like one we we merely referenced the rating. The ratings, the rating plural, and this is this is ah a key mistake a lot of surveyors do make, and that's but what we do at level one, we do at level two and level three. So this applies at all levels, but you need to remember there are two ratings within the EPC. We have the the energy efficiency rating, that's the headline rating, that's the, you know, on the front page, it's the one that minimum energy efficiency standards, and all your grants are based on it, it's the one we all know, it has a little graph, and it's great. and
00:18:27
Speaker
Most people most videoss have got quite good at doing that one. We also have the environmental impact rating. So that's the one that but is a measure of carbon. So my headline rating based on cost, energy rating based on carbon dioxide output or requirements for that property. For residential, for commercial, they're they're reversed. So the the main rating is based on carbon. ah Secondary rating is based on cost. um So for residential property, we have those two ratings. They're both still there. I've had surveyor swear blind to me that one of them has been removed, but it's definitely there. It doesn't have a graph anymore, but it does there. And we do have to put both of them in there. And this is where I have a slight peave, maybe with the the the standard RICS template. It's got a box for one, but not a box for two. So the the ah the the standard we have doesn't encourage compliance with the standard. Anyway,
00:19:18
Speaker
I don't want to rant very much, but yeah we do have we we're told we have to include both ratings. It is a requirement of the home service. If you don't include one of them, I'm not sure what he's going to care but's because no one really know understands the energy one. But the the the environmental one, but they do know the energy one. But it's there. required Anyway, that's all we have to do on level one. Level two, we've got to check EPC for for discrepancies. And that's a kind of a big topic in itself, what constitutes a discrepancy, what's actually a factor of the way EPCs are produced and how they're perceived. But we do have to know where where they're wrong. ah Level three, we do have to to step up a little bit, and we have to to actually consider the validity of some of the recommendations within the EPC. So is it valid to put a solid wall insulation on or underfloor insulation or what have you?
00:20:12
Speaker
um Overriding all of that is a requirement to report on any defects or deficiencies caused by energy energy measures. So if, for example, ah soluble insulation has been applied and it's causing ah causing a problem. Now, what I always say is interesting, because you have that overriding one to spot the defects and deficiencies, you need exactly the same knowledge to as you do for the the requirements to give to check the recommendations. So you have to be able to look at recommendations, okay, is that appropriate? That's exactly the same thing as saying all the recommendations in in ah in place now, is it appropriate? So what we have to do under level one, we have to have the same competency as we have what we have to do with level three. So it's it should be relatively easy for surveyors to to do all of those. um They maybe don't. who has that one But it is it certain certainly something we should all be doing. um You can of course go further and give
00:21:06
Speaker
ah give better recommendations for energy efficiency and and and break it down and and and be and and again I tend to encourage people to do that. Again, we have the retrofit standards. We're not talking about full retrofit relevance, but we can give some some better information about energy efficiency. you know even so Even simple stuff like making sure a smart meter is fitted, that reduces your, can help to reduce your energy costs. so So why don't we tell people to do that? Why don't we encourage people to do that within our survey reports? Interesting. I think there's um a lot of nice points to touch on. Is there anything else you'd like to add around um sort of detail and reports? if If you've had Kate talking about it, I'm not going i'm not going to bore everybody else with the same. her she She knows what she's talking about and she she will give you, she's probably given you all the information that that that you could never possibly know on the subject.
Future Discussions Post-Standards Implementation
00:21:50
Speaker
but yeah Definitely but i' worth checking that one out as well then. um well Thank you for coming on today, Tim. It's been really, ah really interesting going through all the different topics today. If anyone wants to get in touch with you to learn more around Level 3s, etc., but yeah how will they get in touch? I think TV is always good. i um on the more I should be so you can just cut up me through there or or drop me an email to tim.attksobaing.co.uk. um I'm not too not too difficult to find and I'll certainly happily share my opinions where I can. Well, thanks for coming on again and and hopefully once the sort of yeah the new standard is out and we've it's embedded for a bit, we can sort of but have another discussion around changes. look look at Looking forward to seeing it.