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Episode 24 - Part 3 - Getting Clued Up about Off-Mains Drainage with James Warren, UKDP
45 Plays2 years ago
In PART THREE of this week's episode, we are speaking with James Warren from UK Drainage Professionals about learning how to identify and diagnose issues with off-mains drainage.
Across the three parts of this episode, we are discussing everything off-mains drainage, the basics, the legislation, and the key things to look out for.
James is incredibly passionate about off-mains drainage, its impact on the environment, and helping people to really understand a quite complicated and less common topic. James has an enthusiasm that you can't help get but energised by.
James's experience has been gained in both the insurance and drainage industries. He started his career working in claims management for the UK’s largest insurer, before moving into the drainage industry in which he had the opportunity to combine both skills. James is our expert on anything from repair scopes to assessing insurance cover.
In Part 3 of this episode, we discuss:
🤞 Identifying off mains drainage systems
😲 Diagnosing issues
👓 The challenges of surveying septic systems
😱 How homeowners might not realise they have an issue with their off-mains drainage
💭 Can you determine the state of the off-mains drainage from a visual inspection
⚠️ Are certain systems more prone to issues?
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Off-Mains Drainage Regulations
00:00:00
Speaker
Perfect. So in this next part, we're going to cover getting clued up about off-mains drainage. So I think as a starting point, just tying back into the last part around compliance and governance. If people want to go away and research more on the regulations and what are the different regulations that surround off-mains drainage that they can do some research on?
00:00:19
Speaker
Yep, if they want to do the research. So there's a few papers. So the one that we just spoke about is the Small Sewage Discharge General Binding Rules. There's a whole government section on the website about it. And it really is black and white. It's a fantastic piece to read, if you like that sort of thing. I do, not everyone does. Overarching documents. You've got the Building Regulations 2010 Part H, Section 2, super specific.
00:00:47
Speaker
then there's a 46 page document all about drainage fields, how to do the test for them. It's a small font or big font? It's whatever you want it if you zoom in.
Guidelines and Identification of Old Systems
00:01:00
Speaker
It's the BS 6297 2007 A1. It's an awesome document. I have read it cover to cover so many times because
00:01:11
Speaker
This is where I go super boring drainage fields. The testing is straightforward. The installation is straightforward. If you follow this document, it's, it tells you how to dig the holes, what dimensions to dig, how to fill it with water to what depth. It shows you a, a table of contents, what to look out for influencing parameters and characteristics. It literally tells you everything.
00:01:35
Speaker
And yet the amount of time we go to site and the drainage field's been installed incorrectly. They haven't done the percolation test correctly. It makes me cry sometimes, but that document is awesome. And then to size these documents, there's a document called Flows and Loads created by British Water. So, and between those documents, you know what size of plant you need, you know how to get it in the ground safely and correctly, you know what the drainage field needs to be, you know what you're allowed to discharge into,
00:02:06
Speaker
It literally covers everything. So if you've got the building regs, the BS 1697, flows and loads, and the general binding rules, you have got everything covered, all online, all free of charge. You shouldn't be able to get it wrong.
00:02:20
Speaker
Sounds good. That's good to have the stuff to refer to, particularly if you've just seen something out on site and you want to back it all up again. Absolutely. If you're going out on site, I suppose starting with an older system, are there easy wins or key things to know about, to look for in terms of either identifying differences in the type of solution in place or what might be an issue or anything like that?
00:02:44
Speaker
Certainly from an identification perspective, it's really hard because there's not a set number of manhole covers that tell you instantly what the system is underground. And even if there was, because these systems are so old, typically you'll find that if it's a series of two manholes,
00:03:04
Speaker
one of those chambers might have been there'll be soil and grass over one. So from the naked eye, you think, oh, there's only one manhole where if you lifted it, you'll see that it goes into a huge tank underground and the other chamber has just been built over. So it's really hard. The point is still account for is a sequence of manholes pointing in the same direction. That should tell you straight away that you've got multiple chambers or a series of chambers underground. So it tells you straight away that it's going to be an off-manage drainage system.
Challenges in Assessing Old Drainage Systems
00:03:34
Speaker
The vast majority of the older systems will have these small little vent pipes, not far off the ground, maybe only a foot above ground, and that will tell you straight away that that is venting one chamber of the septic tank. So again, just a quick visual to say this is an off mains drainage system.
00:03:52
Speaker
If you've got four or five manhole covers in a row, that's actually a good sign, because if you start lifting them, you should be able to have a manhole for access at the start of the system, then the septic tank system, and then a chamber which should be on the distribution chamber, which is the start of the soak away. You can then tell immediately it's not a mainstream system, you can tell straight away it's a septic tank, and you can see whether there's been any issues, because without being too gross on this podcast, if you lift those chambers and it's all backed up in the manholes,
00:04:20
Speaker
then you know something isn't working and that tells you straight away, get it empty, get it checked and work out what on earth is going on and how we're going to put it right. But from a surveyor's perspective, I feel really sorry for them because you go to site, there might not be, what if you're on a shared system and you've got no manholes on your property and you've just told you I'm on a septic tank, it might be 100 yards down the road because you're shared with four properties.
00:04:44
Speaker
So it's a fair job, it's an absolute nightmare. But it would be down to companies like mine and others to trace it, have a look with the camera, and then ascertain what the system is, what condition it's in, and in a shared situation, how many are connected to it.
Common Issues and Symptoms
00:05:00
Speaker
I'm going off on tangents again, I can't help myself.
00:05:03
Speaker
I was just thinking that was a very good sound bite actually. Are there easy things to look at that might signify issues or can it just be really impossible to tell? Because I know we mentioned about leakage and stuff like that earlier. Well I suppose without being picky it's defining what a problem means.
00:05:24
Speaker
If you look at the general binding rules, the biggest problem will be a septic tank to charge into a water course. But from a homeowner perspective, that isn't a problem because it will never back up. It's always got a weight. It's always got that permanent release into the water course. It's never going to back up, surcharge, and cause any issues with the facilities in the property. So in my mind, that's the biggest problem. But from a homeowner's perspective,
00:05:48
Speaker
that is not a problem but if you go to site the the red flag straight away if you lift covers and there's surcharging detritus on the walls of the man i'm sorry about this it's horrible detritus on the manhole walls you know it's been backed up so you focus your mind why is it backed up if you look at if it's a septic tank and the level the liquid levels too low you're thinking
00:06:12
Speaker
There might be a fracture in the asset itself because the water is leaching out before it goes to the correct level, not the outlet pipe. If you look at a garden and there's boggy areas,
00:06:23
Speaker
and you think oh that's strange you know that maybe that's an indicator the soakway has fouled and the water has found its way to ground level. There's all sorts of things to look out for and also it might be there's the obvious a horrendous smell. Don't get me wrong if you empty a septic tank it takes a couple of weeks to fill up to the normal level. When it's got that much space inside the tank the odors can be quite nasty
00:06:47
Speaker
but once it reaches its operating level, there shouldn't really be many odours after that. So if it hasn't been empty for a year and it's viciously smelly, that is also an indicator there might be a problem. Speaking to the owner as well, yes, I've gone from annual emptying, then it was six months and now it's every three months straight away. It means the problems with the soak away, it's failing or it's failed, hence the requirement for more frequent emptying.
00:07:13
Speaker
So you're focusing your efforts on why has it failed? Can we fit a replacement system in? But you're literally on the lookout, or you're not just looking, but you're listening to the customer as well. If the toilet is flushing and the level in the pan goes up before it goes down slowly, it might be a matchbox car in the U-bend under the toilet, or it might be a holistically fundamental problem and the whole system's died. But yeah, you're always looking out and listening out for any potential problems. I think my penultimate question is,
00:07:43
Speaker
more likely to be issues with one type of system versus another? Or is it just down to when it comes to the end of its life?
Understanding Problems and Professional Assessment
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, there's no one system sort of jumps out as being problematic. Yes, a system, a soaker way can come to the end of its natural life. So it's been in the ground 30, 40 years, just needs replacing, of course. It may be that there's a problem, say with the septic tank, that
00:08:07
Speaker
having a negative impact on the soakway, such as some of these systems have baffles, some have what's called T-pipes or dip pipes and they protect what leaves the septic tank. It doesn't allow any fat oil and grease to exit the tank. If the baffle or the dip pipe, the T-piece is not there, maybe it's knocked off, maybe it's fallen off,
00:08:26
Speaker
If there's no protection for the soakway, the fat, oil and grease will get in there. It will choke up the small holes in the substrata where the water normally dissipates and it will stop the water going anywhere apart from back to the tank or breaking through ground. So yes, soakway may have come to the end of its natural life.
00:08:44
Speaker
Maybe there's a bit of a fundamental problem with the Septet tank, maybe it started collapsing. Maybe there's just some sort of blockage that just needs a quick blast through and we're back to normal. But there is no one specific make or manufacturer or type of tank. They can all run for an age and they can all have problems. Yeah, now that makes sense. I suppose the question that came up for me there,
00:09:11
Speaker
was from there are different reports you've potentially seen from surveyors when you're going out on site. Are there ones that you've seen are better in terms of explaining what a potential buyer might need to consider when they're sort of buying a property with that type of thing? Or is it something you would say just try not to buy too much information on? Is there a better way to handle it? Some surveyors go into fantastic
00:09:36
Speaker
detail about off-mainstreaming systems holistically, which I think is great because it covers all aspects if they're not sure what the system is at the property they've surveyed, to the other end of the scale where it's a limited line, the draining system is not connected to the main storage system, it needs to be independently checked and that's it. And to my mind, although the first one is super helpful, it's
00:10:05
Speaker
It's general. It's holistic. It doesn't actually help the potential purchaser in any way just by listing what all the different options are. You and I could find that online in a heartbeat. I think what's important is it's identified as not being on main sewerage and then jump immediately to getting it checked by a professional. It covers the surveyor.
00:10:27
Speaker
It helps the purchaser because within a heartbeat, you're going to have a report saying what the system is, its condition, if it needs to be upgraded.
Resources and Preventive Measures
00:10:36
Speaker
And a surveyor, doesn't matter if they've been in the game 40 years, they're not going to have that knowledge from a walk-around. Why should they? They're not going to have the kit with them. They haven't got the experience in this specific underground world. So yes, referring their customer to an expert, in my opinion, is what they should be doing in a heartbeat.
00:10:55
Speaker
I think a good point to consider though, if you're worried about not providing advice, remembering actually the justification is even you as a professional going out on site with the amount of kit you've got, and you still might not be able to find every answer straight away, then actually it's
00:11:11
Speaker
perfectly reasonable not to know the answer and to refer it on. So yeah, I suppose my final question then on this particular topic is how can people learn more about off-main drainage other than obviously going online, looking at the standards and reading all of that. Are there sort of good courses you'd recommend or other good resources that are worth looking at? I'm bound to say this and this podcast is not a sales pitch, but
00:11:40
Speaker
We have loads of blogs and free guides on our website. For that exact reason, we had years and years of interaction with customers where they're saying, I just need something in plain English. I'm not daft. I'm not silly. I can read.
00:11:56
Speaker
But some of these guides and regulations, they have to be black and white and super formal for a reason. They're not designed for the everyday domestic consumer to go, oh, yeah, you've interpreted that beautifully into the real world in real world language. So that's what we've done. And I'm sure many other companies similar to ours have done the same thing. But we've created easy to read
00:12:17
Speaker
sort of abbreviated versions of the regs in bite-sized pieces so Joe Blogs, Mrs Smith can just take it, spend five minutes reading up and have sufficient knowledge, sufficient information to then move their situation forwards. Typically people only come on to investigate this once they have a problem. We haven't come across a customer who's literally searching for information because they're bored.
00:12:42
Speaker
You only come into this world, if you're selling a property, buying a property, or if you've got a problem, if you've got a neighbor dispute where their soak away is seeping into your land, there will be a reason for the approach in the first place. So hopefully, our website is super helpful for getting a sufficient background to hopefully put you in a position where you can make an informed decision.
00:13:08
Speaker
I suppose it's one of those difficult ones where it's underground, out of sight, out of mind. It's not like a hole in your roof. It's easy to ignore until it really gets to be a problem. Turn that round. If you buy a new property and you spend £15,000 on a new kitchen, you are going to show that kitchen off. You buy a new house and you spend £15,000 on a new sewage treatment plant, you're not going to have a party to show off your sewage treatment plant because you're going to the garden and you're going to see a flush manhole cover and that's it.
00:13:36
Speaker
So, yes, I totally understand that it's important, but it's not a priority when you buy a house, even though it should be. No, it's not going to get the same level of interest, I think, on your Instagram shorts as the new kitchen.