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Episode 2: Vampire Clams
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To celebrate the 20th anniversary of Twilight, resident redacted vampire Biccy takes the reins to discuss the decline of YA literature, whether the boys are Team Edward or Team Jacob, and to dive into the mind of angsty goth boy Rod Ferrell and the 1996 Vampire Clan murders.
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Setup
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome back to season two, episode two of Twink Death um with me, Bicky and q How you doing, Q? Good. I know I look extremely ridiculous, but whatever.
00:00:51
Speaker
<unk>ue is currently bed. currently sat at my kitchen table with a glass of vodka and ginger beer, which is a new combo for me, but I'm enjoying it.
00:01:03
Speaker
Bicky said I couldn't take a nap um this afternoon. So I'm sort of half napping, half recording. um I agreed to take the lead on this episode so Q can have a little bit of a lazy moment.
Twilight Anniversary and Personal Reflections
00:01:17
Speaker
um And it's the 20th anniversary of Twilight. this year, we would talk a little bit about Twilight and then I've got like a true crime that is kind of thematically linked.
00:01:29
Speaker
Um, so yeah. Um, I don't know, like, I kind of want to know, like do you have any like history with the Twilight novels? like Did you read them when they came out? like I missed the Twilight novels a little bit.
00:01:43
Speaker
um My little sister was really into them. But actually, now that you remind me that this is what we're doing, i did rewatch Twilight this year with her and my friend.
00:01:55
Speaker
that's cute. Yeah. So I have seen them, I think the last time she was here was for the Beyonce concert. um So I saw them in like the spring.
00:02:07
Speaker
yeah I feel like when the books like came out and especially when the movies came out, like, I mean, we're both pretty much the same age. Like, I feel like we were kind of like a little bit too old for it, but it was, and I'd already moved on to a lot of like, ah sort of like heavier, like horror stuff. But it was always kind of like a like a guilty pleasure for me a little bit. I read all of the books and my mom read them all as well.
00:02:31
Speaker
Um, so we kind of bonded over like reading them, even though that terrible. Um, I loved hearing them about them. I'm even though I've never read the books, like I loved hearing about them secondhand from my sister.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, they they're not they're not well written, but they're very readable. like i I haven't gone back as a fully fledged adult and like reread them.
Impact of Twilight on Actors' Careers
00:02:54
Speaker
and But I definitely had a soft spot for them. And I definitely have a soft spot for the first movie. I think the first movie is like ah pretty good as a sort of guilty pleasure. um And it's like a big, like I mean, it's it's our Pats's...
00:03:10
Speaker
like I know he was in Harry Potter briefly, but I would say this is that's his big debut. Yeah, and and I would say the same for Kristen Stewart. I mean, she was in like what, like Panic Room and some other stuff, but like yeah, it it definitely serves as her.
00:03:26
Speaker
a launch pad for like two of the biggest sort of contemporary stars. um I love Robert Pattinson. I think he's like he's one of the most slight interesting like working actors, I think, for me at the minute. He's so cute. He is very cute. He's still very handsome. He looks very good.
00:03:43
Speaker
He's got a weird profile. I think he always looks quite flat from the side, but not in a way that i dislike. I hope he never does gay. i will say that about him. Oh, he already has, I think. I'm sure I've seen him in something where he's a bit gay.
00:03:57
Speaker
But yeah, they it did introduce us to two of the most beautiful ah millennial actors to ever exist, which is Kristen Stewart in Arpatz. And she broke his heart by cheating on him.
00:04:08
Speaker
I know. Which is ironic because... she's she gay yeah she is i find her i also find her very attractive like she's there's like there are certain women that have a quality about them that i find like not so attractive that i'd want to date them because i'm obviously gay but like they just have a sort of quality about them where i do find them sort of physically attractive like i used to really fancy um Samantha Ronson, that chick that used to go out with Lindsay Lohan, I used to think she was really hot.
00:04:43
Speaker
Um, and like Kristen Stewart's kind of got a similar vibe. Yeah. There's certain lesbians that like, I don't think that I want to, um, sleep with them. Um, but I, um,
00:04:58
Speaker
I like kind of want to be them in the way that like, cause they kind of look like twinks, you know what I mean? Yeah. I know what you mean. Yeah, for sure. Forgot what going to say now.
00:05:09
Speaker
I'm last anyway. Um, but yeah, so, so yeah, I do like the Twilight
Evolution of Young Adult Fiction Post-Twilight
00:05:15
Speaker
movies. I, I did want to talk a little bit about like sort of, um, where we've kind of gone from there in terms of like,
00:05:23
Speaker
ah young adult fiction because I feel like when I hear I mean I don't read like young adult fiction now but I feel like I feel like we've gone from like the Twilight books which are fairly sort of tame I mean they were written by like a Mormon woman but like Now it feels like all of the young adult fiction books are about like girls like fucking monsters and stuff. And I don't know. I feel like there must be some kind of like pipeline how we got that from like Twilight to like monster sex. I don't know.
00:05:53
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, i think it's like a few different things. You know, Twilight led to Fifty Shades of Grey, which was sort of like, I mean, Fifty Shades of Grey was literally Twilight fan fiction.
00:06:08
Speaker
um And then it's like, yeah, it's morphed from like, I think that like a lot of the
Analysis of Twilight's Themes and Characters
00:06:15
Speaker
romance that exists now, because like I'm reading this book called Alchemized, which is like,
00:06:24
Speaker
Hermione and Draco um fan fiction. um But it's like, they've changed the the names of course, but it started as Hermione and Draco fan fiction. um And it's like really popular. It's like a hugely popular book. um And I, there's just a lot, I think like the people who read Twilight as teens and young adults um grew up and they wanted even like hornier,
00:06:52
Speaker
um content and that's, that's now being delivered to them because like the fans of twilight are in their thirties now, so they're writing, they're writing sort of like that's that type of stuff. um I also think that like, it's such a, like my sister and I were laughing about this, but it's like, it's such a pro it's such a, like,
00:07:18
Speaker
teen girl fantasy to have this man who could snap you in half like a twig, this vampire, but he's so obsessed with you and committed to you that like he... restrains himself. restrains himself. which screams yeah He's constantly restraining himself from killing you or fucking you or whatever. that's like a very, I think like...
00:07:46
Speaker
like teen girl fantasy. And it's also funny because like when I rewatched the first movie, it's like, everyone's obsessed with Bella. That's like the premise of the movie. It's like all her classmates are obsessed with Bella.
00:07:58
Speaker
The Collins are obsessed with Bella, like the, whatever they're called, the, the Volturi, when I get Bella, it's like, yeah, Yeah, she's definitely like the the focus of like everybody's affections in the book.
00:08:12
Speaker
um do I feel like Stephanie Meyer, like she's she's obviously like a sort of self-insert for her. Well, definitely. and it's It's kind of like femme cell literature in a weird way. Like she's supposed to be sort of like plain. I mean, choosing Kristen Stewart to play her is funny because Kristen Stewart is like kind of has like perfect bone structure, but the way they like the way they fashion her before she becomes a vampire is very plain looking. Yeah.
00:08:42
Speaker
you know yeah Yeah, and she's the the characterization of the character. She's like sort of clumsy and awkward and like falls over a lot. and like I don't know, she's just this kind of... like they They make more of a big deal of that in like the books, um but they do kind of like follow that through in the movies as well. um like She's kind of like...
00:09:04
Speaker
She's extremely self-deprecating and has no idea how attractive she is. And she's constantly talking about how like that she that she's nothing special. But she's so beautiful that like both the werewolf boy and the vampire boy really want her.
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah. If you had to choose, would you be Team Edward or Team Jacob? I mean, of course I'd be Team Edward, but to be perfectly honest, if I was like imagining who it would be like hotter to fuck, I'm basing it on these characters, not...
00:09:35
Speaker
the actors themselves. Cause of course, our pats would be my top choice, but the characters, I bet the werewolf is more fun in bed. Probably. I haven't really thought about it in such explicit. um No, I, I do think our pats is more attractive, but like he is kind of like Edward's kind of a bit of a wet blanket, I guess, but I do like, I do like, I do like him more.
00:10:00
Speaker
The only thing I don't like about it them is the sparkly thing. Like they sparkle in the sunshine. That's a little gay. but That's the funniest part. It is funny. It's ridiculous. I don't know.
00:10:12
Speaker
i also find that the like, um, the scenes in the movie where he's like carrying her are like on his back and like climbing all of these like trees and stuff. It's so like, I don't know. it reminds me of a little monkey. It's just, it's weird. I say that in the movie, like he calls it like a spider monkey. A little spider monkey. Yeah.
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, the whole thing is so absurd. i remember like rewatching the movies when they get to the part where he has to like eat the baby out of her womb and stuff. ah oh god oh my god yeah they have like i think it's like the maybe the third or fourth movie they have the worst like cgi child i've ever seen in my entire life like we we definitely weren't at the point i mean i don't think we're at the point now where we can do convincing cgi humans like i feel like whenever they try we're getting close we are we are getting close but i've seen so many like poor examples, but the, the, the child of like Edward and Bella and like the fourth movie is just like nightmare fuel. It's terrifying.
00:11:12
Speaker
Um, but yeah. All right. You take the lead. what do you want to talk about
Cultural Fascination with Vampires
00:11:15
Speaker
with toilet? Oh, well, I kind of, um, I mostly kind of wanted to talk about sort of like our sort of fascination with vampires as a culture and how that kind of like,
00:11:24
Speaker
sort of shifts in and out. Um, cause I do, I do feel like Twilight kind of started off a bit of a sort of vampire Renaissance and like afterwards you kind of got the, like the vampire diaries and stuff and then kind of died down.
00:11:37
Speaker
And I know that like when, when we were like younger, we had sort of like Buffy the vampire slayer was like a big thing. And it just, it feels like, it feels like the vampire is like a archetype is this thing that sort of like dips in and out of style, like over time.
00:11:52
Speaker
i agree. I don't know. I feel like we're, Maybe on the cusp of another one, like there are definitely like a few vampire movies coming out. We had like Nosferatu at the back end of last year. um And that's kind of what links it with the crime that wanted to talk about, which is you might even be familiar with this. I wasn't sure.
00:12:11
Speaker
um Have you heard of the vampire clam murders? No. ah Okay. Are you saying clam or clown? Clan. Oh, okay. With an N, like a clan.
00:12:24
Speaker
Okay. All right.
True Crime Story: The Vampire Clan
00:12:26
Speaker
Yeah. So I, this was kind of, this is like anything about this. so I'm excited. Okay. So basically, what this is like the ninety s So this is probably around like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, sort of like 90s goth um period.
00:12:41
Speaker
Basically, there was a boy, his name was Roderick Justin Farrell. um interesting It's interesting that his last name was Farrell based on the way that he behaves like Leia, but I'll get to that.
00:12:52
Speaker
um But yeah, so he was born in March 28th, 1980, and he was an Aries who were known to be sort of impulsive and fiery. And his mother, Sandra, was just 16 when she had him. So he was like a teenage pregnancy baby.
00:13:09
Speaker
And she kind of had like a fascination with the occult. So she was very into like astrology and like she claimed to be a psychic and she was into sort of like ritualistic practices and stuff.
00:13:20
Speaker
And as he was sort of like growing up into a teenager, reports say that like she kind of encouraged his like gothic fantasies. So he was very into like the idea of like vampirism and like immortality. And those are kind of, he he was a bit of a sort of like,
00:13:38
Speaker
teenage goth boy and his mom was kind of like, what's the word? She kind of like fed into this aspect of his personality because it was kind of in line with her sort of like a cultish leanings.
00:13:50
Speaker
know No, no, no, no. If like Google him, because i if you look at him, like there's really nothing special about the way he looks. He's kind of radish looking. His name's like Rod Farrell.
00:14:02
Speaker
I'm looking at pictures of him. It is funny that his mom groomed him in this specific way and he didn't. Yeah. Yeah. um But like there's, when to look at him, there's nothing particularly special about him.
00:14:13
Speaker
But as you'll kind of see when I get into the story, he kind of becomes this like, like not godlike figure, but he sort of becomes the leader of this sort of like cult of his own, despite the fact he looks like sort of a,
00:14:25
Speaker
generic nerd um but yeah so he he kind of becomes completely enmeshed with his mom psychologically she indulges his like vampiric delusions and at times sexualizes them which later got her into some legal trouble herself for soliciting sexual acts from a minor in some letters that she wrote but i'll get to that at some point um But yeah, she she kind of painted him as like this special otherworldly child who was like beyond the human world.
00:14:58
Speaker
So from the start, he wasn't just like a lonely goth teen. He had an adult that was like enabling his fantasies and feeding this mythology that he was like this ancient powerful vampire. um And that's kind of crucial for understanding the later escalation.
00:15:15
Speaker
I don't know. Like, I know that when I was like a teenager, like I was definitely very interested in sort of like vampires and like the occult and all of that stuff. And I would like play sort of like, i wasn't a very, i wasn't a very sociable child. I was like an indoor child and I didn't have a lot of friends. And I would sort of like,
00:15:32
Speaker
play out these kind of like fantasies and stuff like in my own time, like on my own. And I sort of, I do wonder like what the impact of like having a parent around who sort of enables that kind of stuff and like amplifies that, like, like what effect that would have on somebody. I don't know. It's interesting. Is the person that she sexually solicited her own,
00:15:57
Speaker
Like, son? No, there's no, like, incest vibe. It was one of his friends. But she's definitely like she's definitely, like, a bit of a perv. But as he's as he's, like, getting older, like, sort of around, sort of, like, 15, 16, he meets a bunch of other teens who would eventually become his, like...
00:16:16
Speaker
vampire clan um through like local social circles. So they're mostly like other goth, like outsider kids. um A lot of them are interested in this role-playing game called Vampire the Masquerade, which is like a...
00:16:32
Speaker
It's like a tabletop role-playing game, sort of like Dungeons and Dragons, but it's all about like vampires and you kind of, in within sort of the universe of the role-playing game, there are these like different clans. And I never really understood like tabletop role-playing stuff. Like um i was into sort of like video game role-playing when I was younger, but like the idea of like,
00:16:54
Speaker
all sitting around a table and like pretending to like be like a vampire or like a dragon or whatever. like It's so like foreign to me. It feels like a very American thing though. I don't feel like British kids really ever did that kind of stuff. i never I never played anything like that. um So I don't relate to that, but I obviously know a lot of people who do it even up to this day.
00:17:19
Speaker
Really? It's actually weirdly, I mean, believe it or not, it's like kind of more of a straight guy coded thing, like magic, the god gathering and, um, dungeons and dragons. I was actually talking about this the other day with someone. and Um, it's not really like a gay, I'm sure there are gay guys into this stuff. I'm not saying they're not, but like I was so like,
00:17:43
Speaker
I was tangentially connected to the Dungeons and Dragons group at like my high school. Like I was really good friends with this girl who was dating one of like the Dungeons and Dragons guy who would like go sit.
00:17:56
Speaker
This is such like a teen girl activity, but she would go sit and like watch them all play Dungeons and Dragons at this like comic book store. It's funny how much of a teen girl's time is taken up by just like watching boys play video games and stuff. But, but like, um, I wasn't like in that group specifically, but I was sort of like, you know, I wasn't cool at all. It was like such a nerd weirdo. Yeah.
00:18:20
Speaker
That kind of, that does kind of feed into like this group of teens, um, and the way that they were kind of interacting. Cause he, um, he he he meets like a few sort of like similarly minded like outsider kids who are interested in in this like role-playing game. And then he gradually sort of pulls in more teens and quite a lot of them were girls.
00:18:40
Speaker
um So like the names of some of the the girls, there was like um Charity Kesey, Dana Cooper, and then Scott Anderson, who was his sort of best friend. And then later a girl called Heather Wendorf, who I'll go into a little bit more detail because she's quite pivotal to the story and But each of them were kind of like searching for like belonging and a bit of a thrill. And he's apparently he was very charismatic, even though he doesn't look like much.
00:19:08
Speaker
And he had this kind of like aura about him where people were sort of like drawn to him. um So Scott Anderson, he was like his closest friend and sort of like right hand man. um And he completely bought into Rod's like vampire persona.
00:19:25
Speaker
Charity Keith, she was like a more impressionable girl. She was fascinated by Rod and she was willing to participate in like blood rituals and stuff, which is something that they started to get into.
00:19:36
Speaker
So they would kind of go to, they would hang out in these like abandoned places. So they would find maybe like um like an old house or like an old like parking lot or somewhere that was like completely abandoned and they would do these kind of like weird like vampire blood rituals where they would like drink like very small amounts of each other's blood and stuff, which obviously is pretty gross and probably not that sanitary.
00:20:04
Speaker
But yeah, they I don't know whether they all like believed that he really was a vampire, but he's he's like... selling them this sort of lifestyle and he's i don't know he's he's he's reeled all these people in and that that's where were they getting the blood from each other okay so they would like cut each other and then like i i doubt they were like drinking gallons of each other's blood i think they were like probably just like cutting each other and licking each other's cuts and stuff like that but okay okay were they having sex
00:20:35
Speaker
yeah i I don't actually know. i imagine so. um i don't actually know whether there was like a sex element specifically, but they're all kind of around the age where you're experimenting with that kind of stuff. So I imagine they were probably hooking up um because there's quite a like mix of like girls and boys.
00:20:52
Speaker
Um, The other one, so Dana Cooper, she was a bit quieter and more reserved and she was often like the voice of hesitation in the group. um But her devotion to Rod made her sort quite complicit in the sort of crimes that will ensue later.
00:21:08
Speaker
And then Heather Wendorf, she's kind of central to like Rod's delusion. So she is a girl who, she's originally from Florida. this this um This grouper in sort of Kentucky, but she's got like relatives that live in Kentucky that she comes up to visit quite a lot.
00:21:26
Speaker
So she kind of meets Rod through going to visit like her relatives in Kentucky and she kind of gets involved in the group. And he kind of sees her as like this girl ah sort of I don't know, like ah like a princess character that he needs to sort of rescue from her like miserable life in like Florida.
00:21:43
Speaker
And that's kind of what spurs on the the crimes that they get involved in later on. um So yeah, as I mentioned, the group did like rituals. So they would like cut themselves and share each other's blood and they do sort of like graveyard ceremonies with candles and stuff.
00:22:00
Speaker
um It was all like highly stylized of gothic, but like adolescent sort juvenile stuff. um But yeah, so there's a quote from Feral because he gave quite a lot of interviews like later on and he sort of describes them as a family. He said they were like bound beyond the human.
00:22:17
Speaker
um He said, I don't think they all understood what it meant until it was too late. So getting on to Heather Wendorf, Heather was visiting her relatives in Kentucky and she'd been complaining a lot about her life back home and her strict parents.
The Vampire Clan's Criminal Actions
00:22:34
Speaker
And she'd become very fascinated with his like vampire identity. And he had sort of interpreted her complaints as her sort of wanting to be rescued from them and like brought into the clan's world, like more permanently.
00:22:49
Speaker
He presented the clan as this like, life altering sort of liberation from the mundane. So he decides that they're going to go to Florida and rescue her. She's gone back home. She's like back at home with her parents.
00:23:05
Speaker
And he convinces the group that they're going to all go to Florida together and they're going to rescue her from her parents and like bring her into the sort of clan full time. Um, so they steal a car and They drive from Kentucky to Florida on this sort of like gothic road trip.
00:23:22
Speaker
and they're like and They're teens. They're all teens. Yeah. so I think he's 16 at the time, maybe 15, but they're all around the same age as each other.
00:23:32
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. So on the night of November 25th, 1996, Rod, ah Scott, and the rest of the clan arrive in Eustis, Florida um at the home of um Heather Wendorf.
00:23:49
Speaker
She sort of like sneaks out and a couple of the friends like drive her away from the scene. And then Rod sort of, spontaneously decides to break into the house and like murder her parents.
00:24:05
Speaker
So he goes inside, he finds Heather's father is asleep on the couch and he attacks him with a crowbar, like striking repeatedly. He's hitting him in the head. He basically shatters this guy's skull while he's sleeping.
00:24:21
Speaker
um He then moves on to Naomi Wendorf, who's the mother, um He strikes her on the head. She has sort of like defensive wounds, which indicates some kind of struggle.
00:24:32
Speaker
There are some reports that she like threw a cup of coffee at him. um But this, we don't actually know whether this is true. This is just something that was mentioned a few times. There were also some mentions that he carved like a V shape into the dad's chest.
00:24:48
Speaker
But the police said that that didn't happen. That was just something that he was telling his friends to sort of like um what's the word, like exaggerate the story. Forensic evidence shows basically multiple blows to the mother, repeated strikes, there's blood everywhere, it's a chaotic scene.
00:25:04
Speaker
um And for him, like the fantasy completely overtook reality. So anyway, after he's murdered them, he obviously goes back off and meets his friends and they sort of get onto the road.
00:25:14
Speaker
um He doesn't He doesn't confess to all of them what he did, but he tells some of them. ah Scott Anderson, his like sort of right-hand man, is kind of exhilarated by the whole thing and caught up in the moment.
00:25:26
Speaker
um Charity, when she learns about the murder, she's kind of terrified by it. And then Donna Cooper is sort of conflicted. um But she's sort of, a lot of them,
00:25:38
Speaker
I think once they learn what he's done, that kind of they're kind of terrified to leave him. They feel like they're sort of they're too far in to sort of the clan to kind of go back. um Heather apparently doesn't find out. She's not directly involved at all, and he doesn't actually tell her that he's like killed her parents, and she doesn't find out the truth until the authorities investigate later. um But after the murders, they steal Wendorf's Ford Explorer, and they begin an escape towards New Orleans. so New Orleans, I think obviously there are a lot of um like links between sort of like New Orleans and the supernatural and like vampires and stuff. So I think they kind of, they kind of view New Orleans as like this paradise that they can kind of retreat to and as a clan and sort of, I don't know, go up into the sunset and like live their Gothic dream life. So that's, that's sort of their plan. They've like stolen this car. They've murdered her parents.
00:26:33
Speaker
They're all together and they're going to go to New Orleans. Um, Talking about the murders, like Rod says, he remembers watching the blood pour out and it was almost like it was in slow motion, he said.
00:26:44
Speaker
um I knew then was beyond humanity. The way he like frames it, it's like, it feels like almost ritualistic or like ecstatic. Um... I don't know. I don't know whether he really like saw it as like supernatural or it was just like psychopathy, like hiding behind this like fantasy that he's built. But um I don't know. it it's It's weird. In terms of like how they were caught.
00:27:08
Speaker
So they were apprehended in Baton Rouge. So they do get to Louisiana ah few days after the murder. And um one of the girls, like Charity Kesey, she calls her grandmother because they've run out of money.
00:27:19
Speaker
And her grandmother alerts the authorities and they sort of come up with a ah plan to kind of trap the teenagers by like telling them to meet up in a particular place and then the police are there um and intercept them.
00:27:34
Speaker
When they're confronted, the members are largely compliant with the police. And because of their age, it meant that the law enforcement could move quickly. Rod immediately claimed responsibility for the murders and continues even after he's been arrested to present himself as a vampire.
00:27:49
Speaker
So when he's being interviewed by the police, he's like, he's still going along with this like fantasy that he's like this vampire guy. Is your impression that he literally believed that? um It's hard to tell. Like, cause if you've, I don't know if you've, if you've had it like sort of drummed into you by your mother, like for most of your like life that, that you're this kind of like special, like otherworldly thing. I don't think it's like inconceivable that he might've thought that.
00:28:17
Speaker
um But yeah, I don't know. It's hard to tell. Interesting. Interesting. um Anyway, where am I up to? Yeah. So once they've been arrested, Heather is finally informed by the police about the murders.
00:28:31
Speaker
um She'd been unaware of the killings during the events um and insulated by Rod and the others. So they kind of kept it from her. They like, as far as she was aware, like they'd just like taken her and like ran away from home.
00:28:44
Speaker
She didn't really know that anything had happened with her family. I don't know. it's It's interesting that he was able to sort of manipulate all of the members in the group to sort of like keep this from her. i remember watching, I first sort of came across this story because I watched a documentary about and this was quite a few years ago.
00:29:00
Speaker
And they kind of like hinted in the documentary series that maybe like she knew a little bit more than she let onto the police. Like maybe she wasn't aware of the murder. um But like as far as sort of official records go, like she didn't, she didn't really know anything about it.
00:29:16
Speaker
But like, i don't know, just the idea of like smashing somebody's head in with a crowbar, like it's just insane to me. um It sounds very gross. It does sound very gross. So as he's like 16, he was the youngest death row inmate
Trial and Psychological Analysis of Rod Farrell
00:29:31
Speaker
at the time. So he gets at the trial, he gets sentenced to death row and he's the youngest person ever to get like sentenced to death row. He's like 16 years old, but it was later, he was late. It was later changed to um life without parole.
00:29:45
Speaker
um So he doesn't actually get like killed. They like give him death row and then they like change their mind and like decide. It's very rare in the U S now that they actually killed them. Yeah. I mean, this was like, i think this was like 96 or 98. So it wasn't like, quite and even back then, like,
00:30:02
Speaker
it took like 15 years to like get to the point where they would kill them. Cause like they had all these, like they had all these like rights and like appeal ability to appeal over and over and over again, you know?
00:30:14
Speaker
So it's like, you had to really exhaust all of that except for like a few, I think they managed to kill like Ted Bundy. Like I think, they killed him within like seven years or six years or something.
00:30:26
Speaker
Like if there was like, you know, absolute, ah no doubt, you know? What do you think about like like death row as like a thing? Like, I don't know. Do you, do you agree with like capital punishment on like, we've never really talked about this before. No, I mean, Catholics aren't supposed to believe in capital punishment. No, that's true. It's like one of our central tenants. Yeah.
00:30:48
Speaker
And we're already, you and I are already messing up so many, like... I know, we can't mess up another another one. feel like we gotta, like, we gotta, like, respect the, like, life thing. But yeah, no, I mean, I don't think capital punishment is, like... I mean, i guess my opinion is, like, it's just... The way it's used now, it, like, clearly doesn't, like, deter anything, you know?
00:31:10
Speaker
sound Yeah, we haven't had it here for like, well, we haven't had it my entire lifetime, I don't think. I don't know. Most European centuries don't have it. Yeah, that's one of the like one of the few areas where I tend to like butt heads with like people that I'm otherwise sort of aligned with on a lot of like political stuff. I feel like, not that this is a political podcast, but like,
00:31:32
Speaker
I feel like very like anti-death penalty. Like I just, and not even from like a Catholic perspective, but just from like a moral perspective, I feel like it feels like an easy way out to me for like somebody, if they've committed a horrendous crime, like, I feel like, I don't know. I mean, some people ah like completely irredeemable and they're never going to sort of like accept responsibility for what they've done. But I think for the people that do horrible things and,
00:31:57
Speaker
are able to accept a degree of responsibility. Like it's much more of a punishment to make them live with the guilt of what they've done than to sort of like take their life away from them. I don't know.
00:32:09
Speaker
Yeah. I don't, I mean, it's complicated. I mean, I'm definitely like pro, like, I do think that some people do things that are so horrible that they should get like, completely locked away.
00:32:22
Speaker
yeah Like, I don't think, I think there is like a certain type of person who's like irredeemable. I kind of do believe that. Like, I wouldn't want, like, I mean, i think it's good for instance, thinking of the last episode that we put Ed Gein in like a mental institution for the rest of his life.
00:32:38
Speaker
Like, I don't think someone like that has the ability to like be fixed, you know? Yeah. That's true. So I'm not, even though I'm like anti-death penalty, I'm also not like, oh, we can like theoretically fix everyone. Like, no, there's clearly ah point. I mean,
00:32:55
Speaker
If you catch your spouse cheating and in a moment of rage kill them, maybe that person potentially could be rehabilitated or whatever. But someone who's done years-long serial sex and violent crimes, I'm kind of like, they got to be away from them.
00:33:19
Speaker
And people who do stuff with kids. I'm like, no. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Getting back to like Rod a little bit, like he he did like undergo like a lot of sort of psychiatric analysis and stuff after he was like in prison. He gave quite a few interviews and things and stuff. And like a lot of psychologists, they described him as like narcissistic.
00:33:39
Speaker
manipulative, detached from reality. um in a lot of the interviews, he refers to himself as like an angel of death. um And he claims to be sort of like beyond human. I think um since then he's kind of, because he's still in prison, obviously.
00:33:55
Speaker
um i think he's kind of gotten away from this like vampire fantasy now that he's like an adult. And I think he's like found religion and like converted to Christianity and stuff. And he seems to be um At least, um what's the word?
00:34:10
Speaker
What's the word when you're like sorry for something? i don't know. Repentant. Yeah, repentant. Like he seems to be a little bit repentant now. um But talking about at the time, he was like, I thought I was beyond human pain. Turns out I was just a boy who wanted to be seen.
00:34:24
Speaker
Yeah, I guess I was interested in like sort of how much of this do you think is like pathology? How much of it is like the environment they grew up in? And like how much of it is like just like a teenage fantasy that's been like taken too far because i think i think all of us are guilty of having like like fantasies and things that we become obsessed with at that age um i don't know do you think like i mean i think actually if i had to guess um from everything you've said and like obviously i'm being exposed to this
00:34:55
Speaker
for the first time via you. So you know ah take that with a grain of salt, I guess. But like i like in the sense that I haven't like deeply looked into this, but I think the most powerful thing for people that age is the group dynamics.
00:35:08
Speaker
So to me, your friends are like the most important thing to you. And like probably the era where I was most likely to do something like bury a body. I don't think I would have been capable of murder, but like the the era in my life when I would have been most capable of like, if a friend called me and was like, oh, I did this crazy thing. Like, i need you to help me like cover it up. Like, I think the era I would have been like most likely to do that is like,
00:35:37
Speaker
my teenage years and young adulthood, because you are like, kind of like, so in love with your friends, you know? yeah And you're like, it is almost, it's not a romantic relationship, but it's like a very, it's like an, as it can be as intense as one at that age.
Teen Friendships and Crime Influence
00:35:55
Speaker
um So I would, I would guess that they just had this like intense, like loyalty to each other, you know? And that was the biggest, you know, influence.
00:36:06
Speaker
Um, and I think that like teens can get really caught up in that. And that's why teens do a lot of like really stupid shit. Um, because they're, you know, kind of obsessed with these group dynamics.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah. they It kind of, when I was like researching for this, it like it reminded me of, um, like another kind of a similar crime that happened in the UK, like not that long ago, I think maybe like 2016 or something.
00:36:35
Speaker
um No, maybe earlier. But like, there was like, this kind of links back a little bit to like Twilight as well. Cause there was like, um there were these like killers in the UK called like the Twilight killers.
00:36:47
Speaker
I think they were like the youngest people in the UK, like ever, like, um, like put in prison for murder. I think they were like 14 or something. And it was this, like this girl, like teenage girl who, um, I can't remember her name, but she lived with her like mother and her younger sister. Um, and she,
00:37:09
Speaker
had never really had like a sort of good relationship with her mother. It had always been kind of like turbulent. And her mom had this like really, really close relationship with her younger sister. um And she kind of gets involved with this boy that goes to her school who's kind of like a bad lad and they sort of like fall in love and have this kind of like, I don't know, like doomed Gothic romance with each other where they become like completely obsessed with each other. And the mom, um, obviously realizes that this kid is like bad news and tries to sort of keep her away from him.
00:37:42
Speaker
And they end up like, murdering like the mom and the sister. So like he sort of jokingly said to her one day, like, Oh, I think we should kill your mom. And she just like out of the blue says, yeah. Okay.
00:37:56
Speaker
And the reason it was like, it was such a ah big case in the UK and it was called like the twilight murders is that like, basically he, he came to like her house in the middle of the night and like knocked on her bathroom window and they had planned for her to like be there and like let him in, um, to commit the murders.
00:38:17
Speaker
And the first like two nights that he does it, like she's asleep and she doesn't come to the window and you don't really know whether it's cause she's sort of like had second thoughts or like, um She's just genuinely fallen asleep. But like on the third night that he comes, um she lets him in and he she's too squeamish to like go through with the murders herself. So like he like goes into the mom's bedroom and like stabs the mom to death like about nine times or something while she's sleeping.
00:38:47
Speaker
um She like wakes up during it. And then he like goes into the sister's bedroom and stabs her to death. And they they were like... this girl was like sharing a bedroom with her sister.
00:38:59
Speaker
So like while her sister is still, is like dead on the floor in her bedroom, they like go in there and like drag her mattress, like downstairs to the living room. And they like sat there in the living room with these like dead bodies upstairs and watch the entire twilight series of movies together in this like weird sort of world that they'd built for themselves in the living room.
00:39:20
Speaker
And there's, and it's just like, I don't know, like, It's that same kind of thing of like when you're a teenager, like these these relationships that you build with each other can be like super, super intense. And I think if you're the wrong kind of person, it can go the wrong kind of way.
00:39:34
Speaker
Yeah. I just think it's i think it's like a teen... Like, I just think teens are like that. Like, I mean, one thing I'm kind of surprised, like, uh, what's his name has never done. Ryan Murphy is like, do the Leopold and what is that murder? The famous murder of the two boys, uh, Leopold and Loeb who were to like teen boys who like read Nietzsche and like, maybe we're having sex with each other. And I don't know anything about this. I've never heard about this.
00:40:04
Speaker
Oh, well maybe don't read about it because maybe I can do that for you next time. That's a good one for us to go over. Anyway, long story short, they were like teen boys, potentially lovers who like murdered.
00:40:15
Speaker
they They like were, they sort of did the murder for like, um, anyway, whatever they they did the murder to see if they could get away with it. That's the line. So yeah. can't really remember where I'm up to now. I kind of got sidetracked talking about that with a crime.
00:40:30
Speaker
but Oh yeah. So back to Rod. So like Rod is still in prison. um and the story like persists, there are documentaries and like stuff that you can go and watch about this. Um, the other members like lives were all like irreparably changed. Like a lot of them are like haunted by guilt.
00:40:46
Speaker
Um, and some of them even today are like still invested in the mythology of like Rod. Heather survived. Um, but obviously the shadow of her sort of family's deaths of, um,
00:40:57
Speaker
still hangs over her. um I don't know. i don't know how I would like, how do you move on with your life when something like that happens to you? We kind of talked about this, like on one of the other episodes, I can't remember what the killer was, but like, I don't, I, I just, I can't even like fathom, like going about my life after something like this happened to me. I mean, i guess I can fatho it. I'm trying to stop my phone from coming through on my computer. I hate how everything's well connected these days.
00:41:25
Speaker
um But I like, I like can fathom it. And the only reason why is because I'm just like, you'd have no choice but to, um but yeah, I mean like you'd have no choice but to, um to go on And so you just like would, you know, i mean, you'd probably would do like a lot of drugs and shit. That'd be my guess. Yeah.
00:41:47
Speaker
You'd go from like the occasional coding nighttime ritual to like coding in the morning, coding in the evening. Obviously, like neither of us is like serial killers or anything, but like, I don't know whether like, was there anything that you were like super obsessed with when you were a teenager or like fantasized about a lot?
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely like had so, I mean, I think this is such a common fantasy, but I had like so many fantasies about like running away from home and like um running away with friends and like going to like a place. like I mean, now that I'm like old, i know how retarded that would be. but like going to like you know um New York City and blah, blah, blah. But I mean, I know gay guys who who did stuff like that. you know and but Like run away and went to New York.
00:42:37
Speaker
Yeah, they basically became prostitutes is like kind of the only way it goes. And I would have been like a very bad prostitute. um i don't think i don't think I would have really been able to pull it off very well.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah. But yeah, I mean, those are like my big fantasies, definitely. Like escapism, running away. I feel like all of mine were like very, i mean, I was a very like introverted child. I didn't really have a lot of like close friends and stuff, but like even the fantasies that I had, they were all about like, they never really involved like a ton of other people. They were always like, like I always, I was always like really obsessed with like, like movies with like big, like old Victorian mansions and stuff. Like, Oh, I mean, if you're talking about like more like happier fantasies, I mean, yeah, of course I like wanted to live somewhere. Like, I mean, I lived in a pretty like mundane, like average, like American suburb. So yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to like be like adopted by like a wealthy family that lived in like a mysterious mansion and stuff like that. Oh, for sure. I mean, Harry Potter was also like a big influence. Like I find out that like, I have some sort of like magical abilities and I'm like, like taken away and like, I get to go to the, I mean, boarding school was a big fantasy. I know that's kind of funny to think about, but like in the U S like the the, the British boarding school, feel like so many books I read were like set in that type of environment, like the British, like sort of boarding school system.
00:44:06
Speaker
Um, basically anything that was like escaping my, what I considered to be very like mundane and kind of boring circumstances.
Teenage Fantasies and Escapism
00:44:15
Speaker
But I mean, looking back, like, you know, it's funny to look back as an adult because I'm like, I would be so lucky now to like own a house, like the one I grew up in and like, yeah,
00:44:28
Speaker
But yeah, like when you're a kid, you want your life to be... were you ever interested in like, like ah so of like a cult stuff? Or like, did you like dabble in like witchcraft?
00:44:39
Speaker
Yeah, like, and i won i was when I was young, the big thing that was, like, kind of coming through, i feel like, well, I mean, I think this this has come in waves. But, like, there were definitely kids who were, like, into Wicca. And, like, I remember I had, like, a Wicca book. Yes, same.
00:44:54
Speaker
yeah Actually, like, got in trouble for having. and like, I, like, read it. And, like, I tried to do, like... a ritual ones. I mean, now that I'm like a Christian looking back on that, I'm like, Oh my God, like I can't believe I was messing with that stuff.
00:45:09
Speaker
But yeah, like I definitely was into that. I remember trying do, I remember like the the book that I had, um it had this like, spell in it where you could like change your eye color. And like, i remember like trying to do this, like a spell that would change my eyes from like blue to brown and it didn't work. But like, I was like, I remember being like believing in it enough that I was convinced that it was going to work. And like, I don't know, like,
00:45:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's weird like looking back at like being in that headspace where you're impressionable and enough that you can imagine that that stuff is real. But then a part me still thinks a lot of that stuff is real.
00:45:47
Speaker
I mean, when I was significantly younger, like pre like before my probably like later teenage years, like I'm talking like 9, 10, 11, 12, I spent a lot of time in my room.
00:45:59
Speaker
My parents were pretty strict. um So like socialization was like... I don't know. Like I was allowed to do like one thing with a friend a week, but I wasn't allowed to just like of like some of my friends were like constantly allowed to be like out of the house, you know?
00:46:14
Speaker
um So I spent a lot of time in my room, obviously with no TV, obviously with no phone and obviously with no phone. computer, which is very funny to think about now because I'm like, what would I even do? Like, you know, if I was like in a room alone with nothing but books, I mean, probably now it'd be pretty enjoyable, but anyway, i would try to like move things with my mind.
00:46:35
Speaker
yeah I would like, I would like look at something on like the bookshelf and be like, maybe if I concentrate on it and Yeah. I remember like, I like briefly when I was in high school, I did really was, I was very unpopular in high school.
00:46:50
Speaker
Um, but like, there was like a brief period where I had this like one girlfriend and I like, I haven't had like a lot of like female friends in my life generally. And whenever I have, we've had like really bad relationships. So I tend to like, ah I just tend to get along better with men, but like,
00:47:08
Speaker
ah she was like very into sort of like occult stuff. And like, I remember she bought me like this, um, like pendulum and we would, we would sort of like, um, try and like move the pendulum. And like, we were probably just moving it with our hands, but we like thought we were like moving it with our minds and stuff. And it's like, it's, it's so weird looking back and thinking about that kind of stuff. But I mean, I think that like the reason teens,
00:47:32
Speaker
are so susceptible to that is because like you are in kind of like a secret world in the sense of like there's like a subterranean world that's like hidden from the adults. was always super into vampires. i think I mean, I'm still super into vampires, but I think that was like, I was always like obsessed with vampires.
00:47:54
Speaker
I think I was more into witches. Like I was obsessed with the craft, yeah you know, and I remember there was this really bad, we should actually review this for the pod because it'd be funny, but there was this really bad movie called the covenant. Maybe I'll watch that tonight. That's not like the boy version of the craft. I haven't seen it. It's like a really bad, like boy version of the craft, but like the guys were like so hot.
00:48:17
Speaker
Um, and definitely at this point i that I saw it, I was already having like sexual,
00:48:26
Speaker
feelings for boys. So I was very excited to like watch this movie. Yeah. I was like, and it's basically like hot jocks, but they do magic. That, that, that does sound, it sounds bad, but good.
00:48:38
Speaker
ah Definitely. No, it's so bad. You're good. And they live in like, part of like the whole thing is they're like ancient, like, like they're wasps, like, so they're like, not, I guess, ancient in the context of America is funny, but like their families like dated back to like the pilgrim era. And they were like, they were like descendant from like the first witches of America.
00:49:03
Speaker
ah So they lived they lived in like, ah you know, these like fancy, like New England sort of like haunted mansion looking. Yeah. I remember like, I mean, I think like, I remember sort of reading like the Anne Rice books, like the vampire books when I was like, I don't know, maybe a little bit too young because they were kind of like homoerotic. Like I think about sort like 16, 17, I was sort of reading those and that I was very obsessed with like the idea of being a vampire. And I think that was when I,
00:49:32
Speaker
um I started sort of like changing my style to sort of like be a bit more like pampy and stuff. And I remember, I remember once being in like the, um, the corner shop and I must've been like maybe like 17 or something. I remember this like little girl coming over to me. I used to like, I used to like, um,
00:49:51
Speaker
wear like white like face stuff to make my face like whiter. I remember this girl looking at me and she was like, are you real? And I was like, and that was like the coolest thing that anyone had ever said to me. i was like, gosh, you think so? A real vampire.
00:50:03
Speaker
Um, but yeah, i was such a loser. Oh my God. I'm laughing so much. The covenant has a 4% rating on rotten tomatoes. That's abysmally low. i always feel like, I mean, I don't trust rotten tomatoes. I feel like it's always wrong, but like,
00:50:18
Speaker
4% is 4%. I don't care. It's a great movie. It's, it's, it's a classic. Yeah. We can definitely watch it for an episode. I think that'd be fun. Um, I don't really have anything else to talk about. I've kind of gone through all of my show notes, but.
00:50:30
Speaker
All right. Well, let's wrap it up. I think we did two. Uh, we had a solid episode. if Not two, only And I'm excited to for this season. Yeah.
00:50:42
Speaker
Love y'all. Bye. Love you.