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Episode 7: Stop Wasian Haunt
40 Plays14 days ago
The boys are back to discuss Stephen Soderbergh's haunted house genre-bender and tiger mom comeback vehicle Presence and the chilling true story of Daniel LaPlante, the real life boy in the walls.
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Transcript
Reconnecting and Refreshments
00:00:36
Speaker
okay we're back what are we recording yeah we're recording hi twink death the fans fans it's been a minute uh bicky's been on some international travels and i've been a little sleepy which i'm always a little always a little sleepy yeah i'm always a little sleepy too i'm drinking um Zabrowka and apple juice.
00:01:05
Speaker
Because of our time difference, it's really funny that typically, like I have a Zen pouch in and I'm drinking coffee. and you're drinking drink. But like if we were flipped, like I would have just taken my Benzo for night, and you would be drinking coffee.
00:01:22
Speaker
So they get ah get my most energetic me, which is nicotine and coffee, and they get your most low. yeah i think my low energy is still pretty high. It's fine.
00:01:36
Speaker
It's cozy. Yeah. I like when I'm, I like my, when I've recorded podcasts after taking my night Benzo, because I say much more, um,
00:01:46
Speaker
On my other podcast, I had this whole long spiel about how mountains are actually trees once. And it's one of my favorite things I've ever talked about on a podcast.
00:01:57
Speaker
ah You heard this theory that ah mountains are actually the the petrified trunks of ancient trees that were huge. I've never heard this, but I'm intrigued. It's kind of a beautiful theory if you really think about it.
00:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, it's cute. um So today we're here to talk about two things.
Movie Overview: 'Presence'
00:02:17
Speaker
We're going to talk about Daniel LaPlante and the movie Presence. But we're going to start with Presence, which is the part of pod I'm going to lead.
00:02:31
Speaker
or i mean, neither of us is really leading, but you know what i mean. So Presence is new Steven Soderbergh movie. um it stars Lucy Liu, is like kind of the main character, I would argue, sort of um And her name's Rebecca. And then it has Chris Sullivan as the dad, Kalina Lang as the daughter, and Eddie Madej as the brother.
00:02:57
Speaker
um This movie takes place, it's actually filmed in New Jersey, my home state. And it takes place almost exclusively inside of a very typical suburban American um house. So...
Unique Perspective: The Ghost's Viewpoint
00:03:13
Speaker
ah so um I think what was, well, first off, I loved the movie personally. i agree that it i agree with you, Vicky, when we talked about it earlier, that it doesn't really transcend to like high art necessarily, but i appreciated it because it's kind of something that doesn't get made much anymore, which is like,
00:03:37
Speaker
a low-ish budget, pretty low budget movie that's contained to essentially five characters um all operating like within a house.
00:03:49
Speaker
um And the sort of trick that it pulls or like the new thing it tries to bring to the horror genre is that it's told from the perspective of a ghost in a haunted house.
00:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that was interesting because, I mean, we've definitely had movies where that kind of told from the perspective of the villain, like those that, um, that slasher movie that we talked about briefly in a violent nature that kind of follows like the killer.
00:04:18
Speaker
Um, you've got maniac obviously is the most famous one, but like with this one, it's not really a villain for a start.
Family Dynamics in 'Presence'
00:04:26
Speaker
Cause I wouldn't say it's really a horror movie per se. And the,
00:04:29
Speaker
and the the sort of the thing that the camera kind of embodies is, is more like transient than that. It's not like a, a solid sort of character. Well, it kind of is, but it kind of isn't.
00:04:42
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's called presence and like the, is told from the perspective of the presence, which is, you know, I don't think it's never been done before, but it's a cool perspective to, um,
00:04:57
Speaker
you know, like to to place the audience into the, um and into into like the kind of supernatural element of the film instead of placing the audience into the human perspective of the film.
00:05:11
Speaker
And this is actually a fantasy that I have a lot as I'm falling asleep, that I have some sort of like invisibility powers and I can like walk through walls and like go to like a celebrity's house or go to like the White House and like, yeah.
00:05:26
Speaker
And like walk around like unnoticed and like observe what's happening. um So it's a very voyeuristic film. But the basic premise um is that the parents, lucy ah the parents, Rebecca and Chris, I'll probably start calling her Lucy Liu. That's fine. I probably will
Lucy Liu's Return to Acting
00:05:44
Speaker
too. But yeah, Lucy Liu and the husband are have two kids. um Their kids are teenagers and their daughter um has you know recently lost a best friend to, at the beginning of the film, you learn you've you believe it's a drug overdose of some kind. Yeah.
00:06:05
Speaker
And, you know, um they, it's a family that I, it's a, you know, kind of an upper middle class American family, but you realize pretty quickly that they're in crisis. um It's Lucy Liu's character is revealed to be sort of doing some, some sort of illegal, maybe insider trading or embezzling from her company. And the father is,
00:06:31
Speaker
um runs like a if He's a more like working class sort of father, but he it seems like he runs sort of like a contracting or like construction business, basically. um So you get the impression that Lucy Liu is like maybe the primary breadwinner in the family. um But the parents' marriage is is on the rocks.
00:06:51
Speaker
um And as often happens when a couple is on the rocks, the kids have sort of each sided with one of the parents. So Lucy Liu has very much sided with the son, and the father has very much sided with the daughter.
00:07:07
Speaker
So you have a split family narrative. um And you can kind of see, it's really interesting because Lucy Liu's character is like this ambitious um kind of girl boss character, I would argue. And the son is like a good looking ah champion athlete swimmer type character.
00:07:29
Speaker
um And the daughter who is beautiful, um you know, beautiful teenage Wajian,
00:07:39
Speaker
Asian daughter. um but she's much more kind of depressive and reserved and obviously mourning the loss of her friend. Um, and the dad is kind of a more empathetic, like emotionally, uh, intelligent character. So it makes sense that he's, that's how the kids have sort of split.
00:07:58
Speaker
Um, because I would say Lucy Liu's character and the son's character are kind of like narcissists basically. Yeah. It was kind of nice seeing, um, Seeing Lucy Liu in like a different kind of role, I feel like she's kind of aging into like the the kind of mother role, which is cool, because she she was always kind of ah so a sex symbol in her earlier years. But she definitely played the Asian bitch mom pretty well.
00:08:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's kind of interesting because she, you know, I feel like she hasn't been in anything. I mean, I'm looking at her Wikipedia now. I mean, she's kind of semi-consistently worked. But, um it you know, from like maybe roughly 2012 now, she's been on like sort of a like intense ish break.
00:08:46
Speaker
um Not a, not a full break, but like not doing a whole lot, you know? um And then in the last year she's made like four movies. So she's definitely like kind of hopping back on the horse of Hollywood. So it was, it it is cool to see her come back. She's actually 56, which is crazy.
00:09:06
Speaker
um Yeah, she looks good. I mean, she's Asian, so of course. Yeah, she looks incredible. um She definitely has like the mom haircut bob going on. I think it's worth mentioning that the very opening scene, ah Julia Fox has a really funny ah cameo as so as the realtor that sells the house.
00:09:28
Speaker
um And Lucy Liu's mom, Lucy Liu as the mom is like, you know, clearly like girl box. And I love that they said the price of the house. She says 850, which is probably about what that house would cost 850 grand. I was like, I was slightly disappointed that Julia Fox didn't return later in the movie. Cause I felt like she was going to, and they,
00:09:50
Speaker
Isn't it like her friend who's like the psychic or her neighbor something? I thought she was going to come with them and I was like, oh no, that would have been cute. It's her sister-in-law. Yeah.
Themes of Betrayal and Tension
00:09:59
Speaker
um that's supposed to be her brother, husband.
00:10:02
Speaker
So yeah. So as the movie, okay. So basically the plot is pretty simple, which I also really appreciate because I'm like really into like this. idea I guess it makes me feel like I could make a movie.
00:10:13
Speaker
um It's like the reason I liked skin in my rank too, because like, It's just, you know, these that are like contained to within one single ah like house or so yeah I feel like those are like easy movies to make. And it makes me feel like my someday, maybe I could like film a movie like this. Yeah.
00:10:35
Speaker
But, ah and probably the most budget was spent on moving this camera around because the way they move the camera, because you're supposed to be like in the, you know, inside of the ghost is definitely the,
00:10:48
Speaker
you know, like that's difficult to do. But yeah, so you're, you know, um you're watching the events unfold from within the house. And at first only the sister is like kind of aware of the presence. um A few things start happening.
00:11:04
Speaker
So the good looking brother has like kind of a blonde Chad friend. And that friend starts coming over to hang out with the brother, but pretty quickly gets interested in the sister.
00:11:18
Speaker
um And the sister and him start having sex behind the brother's back. um And you and like you get the impression that uh, there's something off about him, but it takes a little while to figure out what, but one of the first scenes where, you know, you notice the presence or she notices the presence is they're about to have sex and the presence pulls down like the rung in her closet. Yeah.
00:11:53
Speaker
Everything just sort of collapses. Yeah. Yeah. So the sister realizes like, oh shit. Um, and then another scene where they do have sex and she gets out of the shower and he's gotten them some orange juice and he pours,
00:12:08
Speaker
um something into her glass of orange juice and that like a white powder and the presence knocks over the white powder um or knocks over the glass so that she can't drink the orange juice. i you know, was a little confused. Like it it does do a good job of making you wonder like what exactly this character's motives are because they had just had sex. so I'm like, is he going to like rape her? Like, even though,
00:12:35
Speaker
She's clearly like, you know, already giving him what he wants. Like, you know, I was definitely confused about like what the goal, what his goals were. So it does a good job of like waiting for the big reveal till the end.
00:12:47
Speaker
But The movie picks up steam when the brother plays a prank at school with this Chad friend where they send this girl's nudes around basically the school.
00:13:07
Speaker
And there's a conversation happening in the living room, a really uncomfortable conversation where Lucy Liu seems to be sort of amused by this prank, I would say. she thinks that yeah she thinks it's funny and the son is telling the story and he's not telling the story like he did anything super bad. He's just telling it like a funny story. And the the father and the sister are are horrified and think like what he did was like really cruel.
00:13:34
Speaker
um and ah And while this is happening, the presence goes upstairs and like begins destroying the brother's room. and the family runs upstairs because they hear the noise and they see, obviously, the you know supernatural element completely tearing apart the room. and then So the family their presence.
00:13:53
Speaker
you know realizes they' um they're being haunted. So then you see them all out. You see them all standing on the porch, talking. Lucy Liu, uh, is smoking a cigarette, which she has some funny line, like, mom, I didn't know you smoked. And she's like, I haven't for 13 years.
00:14:13
Speaker
i like that Lucy Liu's character has like a secret cigarette pack, which is something I always have too. Yeah. Me too. I thought i one of the things that liked about the movie as well was that it kind of, um,
00:14:26
Speaker
it kind of sets up this idea that the spirit is maybe the spirit of the friend who's deceased. Correct. Yeah. Um, the more kind of things that occur, the more you kind of think, Oh, maybe it is that cause like the way she sort of, the the presence is sort of protective of the daughter and the way it gets angry at the brother for his like treatment of another girl. You kind of think like, Oh, maybe that maybe there's something to that.
00:14:51
Speaker
And then that's obviously kind of, turned on its head a little bit later in the movie. But um but no, i thought I liked that, the way they sort of have you kind of
Appreciating 'Presence' for its Conciseness
00:15:00
Speaker
guessing throughout. like Yeah, and it's not scary. It's more interesting. I would call it more of like a psychological thriller than a horror film, to be honest.
00:15:08
Speaker
um But it's still very like intriguing. And one thing I loved about it is that it's 85 minutes. um And I think it's really rare that we get like a tight hour and 20-minute movie anymore.
00:15:21
Speaker
Um, so I want more movies like that. Like I'm like, instead of giving us like a three and a half hour brutalist, like give us like three 80 minute movies. Yeah, for sure. That would be my preference. Cause it's so nice to go to the theater and go in and like have your snack and like, feel like you're leaving.
00:15:40
Speaker
pretty quickly after where it's like, you know, it's like a nice, like little interlude into your day, but it doesn't feel like it's taking your entire day. Yeah. There's nothing worse than like going into the cinema and then you come out and it's suddenly dark and you're like, shit, it's like 10 PM. got go home and go to bed. But, um, but no, I thought, I thought the length of the movie was good. It was nice and tight. Um,
00:15:59
Speaker
It's a very like social movie. It's like the type of movies I feel like when my friends and I would go to the movies as teenagers, like, you know, it's something you can do with people and then like still have something afterwards and like go hang out more.
00:16:12
Speaker
um And I think that that's not something you cannot do if a movie is like two and a half or three years. three hours you just that's kind of the end of the hangout um anyway so as the movie progresses there's this plan the chad guy comes up with because the parents are going out of town and um they're very stressed about this like out of town thing they have to do because the dad suggests that while they're at this comp this like work conference that they um that basically they ah talk to a lawyer to figure out if Lucy Liu's going to go to jail.
00:16:51
Speaker
um And so they leave. They leave their teenage kids at home alone. Very normal
Shocking Revelation and Conclusion
00:16:57
Speaker
thing to do. And of course, the kids, you know, the dad says, don't have anyone over. And she goes, the girl goes, dad, we won't. And he goes, I don't believe you. But they kind of laugh about it, which every parent knows.
00:17:09
Speaker
If you leave your kids alone, they're going to. Maybe they won't have a party, but they're going to have someone over. um So the brother invites this Chad friend over and they're drinking this like vodka together and they're kind of like rowing out. But a sister and the Chad guy had set up this previous plan where he said he was going to give the brother and Ambien and, um,
00:17:37
Speaker
the brother was going to like fall asleep. And, uh, then, you know, the sister and the Chad guy couldn't have sex all night, I guess. And interestingly, the sister kind of like goes along with this plan pretty, uh, fast.
00:17:53
Speaker
Like, I guess. Yeah. I mean, i mean, he doesn't sort of, he doesn't lay out that explicitly to her when they have that initial conversation about it. He just sort of, I think he just sort of says that he'll like take care of the brother. Yeah.
00:18:06
Speaker
and it's more sort of insinuated. so um But yeah, I don't know. as a It is a little weird that the system would kind of go along with it. but I mean, she kind of hates her brother. So, I mean, I guess there's this element of like, I mean, she's already like fucking her brother's quote unquote, like current friend behind his back, you know? Yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
And the is the brother is very mean to the sister. And so is Lucy Liu. Like the brother and the mom are like very mean to the sister. So she's like kind of alienated from like half her family. Anyway, so he does give the brother this Ambien and has the brother pass out. And then when he gets upstairs, the sister doesn't want to have sex, ah but he offers her a drink where he has put the white powder in the drink again. And as she drinks it, you realize that he's given her
00:19:02
Speaker
um fentanyl and she starts to sort of pass out. And then it's revealed that actually the chad guy is this like serial killer who's been like giving all these girls fentanyl and he takes out this like it's really creepy he takes out this plastic and starts putting it over her face to like restrict her breathing and then like bringing sort of like making her pass out and come back to you know kind of come back over and over again and during it i mean i guess they had to put this in but he because does kind of a silly monologue of like
00:19:37
Speaker
like that he's, he's like, I'm the one who's been killing all the girls. Yeah. Cause, cause it's kind of, obviously it's revealed that he is obviously responsible for the death of the friend who sort of is the catalyst for the entire movie. And i felt like, I kind of felt like, cause on the, I think the first time that they have sex they're having, and she thinks that the ghost is her, is her friend.
00:20:02
Speaker
They do talk about her a little bit. And he says, Oh, I think I met her once. Right. And I kind of, I kind of felt like that was enough of like a subtle nod to the fact that he could have done this. I didn't feel like they really necessarily needed to like lay it out there.
00:20:17
Speaker
but um But they do, and it doesn't detract too much from the movie. It's fine. but No, and it's interesting because, like, one thing that, you know, it's kind of, like, an interesting, a nice guy trope, because one thing that's very interesting is whenever they do have sex, he keeps saying things to her, like, you're in control, like, you say when, like, ah you know, i'm I'm never going to do anything that you don't want. So he's, like, yeah he's like playing this, like,
00:20:44
Speaker
mr Mr. Consent Freak. Yeah, but it feels very, like, even when he's doing it, it, like, doesn't feel good. Like, it feel even, like, watching it, I'm like, there's something about, like, his over-obsession with, like, this consent language that feels creepy.
00:21:01
Speaker
um and that Well, I think, I mean, I think those are the guys that you always need to watch out for anyway in real life, but...
00:21:11
Speaker
Yeah. So, um and then the presence goes downstairs and shakes the brother awake and the brother runs upstairs, bursts into the room and um knocks the guy off of the sister, but they both fly out the window and die And we forgot one other crucial part of the movie that Julia Fox's brother brings his crazy wife over who can see spirits in the middle of all this. And she says something very interesting that the spirit is, hold on. She uses a specific word that I had to look up, but I liked the word when I, oh, it's an anachronistic spirit and that it's, um,
00:21:56
Speaker
it's not necessarily like, like it's a spirit that can move back and forth in time. ah and and like the parents sort of ignore her and think she's crazy.
00:22:06
Speaker
But the reveal at the end is that the spirit was actually the brother um who had died, but come back in time.
00:22:17
Speaker
Right. Yeah. To like fix everything.
Deeper Themes and Critiques
00:22:21
Speaker
And this is revealed when, uh, Lucy Lou's character looks into, um, this old mirror and sees her son. Um, yeah. So they have this like old mirror hanging in the living room. That's kind of, i think it's made like colloidal silver is what they said, which is like, yeah, they, they mentioned it when they first in the, I think in the pretty much the very first scene, they like mentioned the mirror and,
00:22:52
Speaker
um throughout the movie, like different people comment on it. I think somebody says something like, Oh, I love like these old parents. Cause they see, they've seen so much as I'm thinking. Um, yeah, it's, it's kind of poignant that, that that's where the mother like finally sees the the spirit and it's obviously it turns out to be a son and that's us they're like packing up to leave the house because they don't they don't want to be there anymore afterwards right and lucy lu breaks down and you realize the spirit of the brother came back clearly to you know save his sister um from some other like plane or
00:23:29
Speaker
whatever um and then the spirit at the end is like released from the house and like rises above the house yeah and we get to see the house from the sky and there's no one there as cute as i thought it would be from the outside i thought it was pretty ugly that's like literally what like all the houses in jersey look like um but yeah so uh yeah that's like kind of the film i think that Yeah, i I think that I've said all the stuff that I really enjoyed about it. um i
00:24:01
Speaker
yeah, I don't know. i mean, I liked the comments, the commentary on sort of like the nice guy maybe being like the not nice guy um Because I do think guys who act like that are... are sort of, you know, um weird. And I liked the kind of idea that this like spirit can like shift back and forth in time.
00:24:22
Speaker
And I liked the localized family drama. um And that was one of the movies I felt like did really well with this like thing that does happen in families that are divided.
00:24:33
Speaker
Um, certainly it happened in my family before my parents got divorced where there was sort of like, and it's, it is always the same. It's like the boys with the mom and the girl is with the dad. That's like a class. Yeah.
00:24:44
Speaker
but The only, like the only real gripe that I had with the movie and it wasn't a major one was that I felt like I thought the parent characters were, even though you don't spend that much time with any of them, really, i felt like the parent characters were pretty well-rounded and flushed out. And I didn't really feel the same about the teenagers.
00:25:02
Speaker
Um, the, brother the brother kind of, but the sister just kind of felt kind of wishy-washy. I didn't feel like we really like knew that much about her.
00:25:13
Speaker
Um, but then there's an 85 minute movie and I sort think how much like backstory can you really get in there? Um, but yeah, that was, that was my, my only gripe. I felt like, I don't know. I wanted to know the characters a little bit better cause I didn't really feel emotionally attached to any of them.
00:25:30
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, they could have done so much more and they could have cut out some scenes easily to do this, but they could have done more with like the girl, um you know, cause I think you can tell a lot about a kid spending time alone in their room. i mean, that's such a clean teenage thing. Like I can think of all the things I was doing in my room alone. Happen for bed. Not perverted things. just But like, yeah, I mean like, you know, when you're like bored and you're alone in your childhood room, you know, maybe you're writing in a journal or you're reading books or, you know, yeah there's like things they could have shown that
00:26:09
Speaker
Or especially since this is like modern times and they have phones, they could have like shown us what she's like, you know, doing on her phone. There's a lot of ways or music she listened to. Like we just don't really get any sense of her like interiority.
00:26:22
Speaker
Yeah. I think, I mean, i think probably a lot of that comes down to the, the fact that you're, you're always seeing the movie from the perspective of the present sort of moving about the house. So I get,
00:26:35
Speaker
it can't follow them around all day and see what they're doing. But yeah, they definitely could have included a little bit more of that kind of stuff. They just didn't give the kids enough people because like the only other person they interact with is this boy.
00:26:52
Speaker
So they don't really give, like they don't even interact with each other. No. I also like, i don't know whether you felt like this. I thought at the beginning of the movie for probably like the first like 20 minutes or so that like,
00:27:04
Speaker
the daughter was a lesbian and it was her like lover that had died. I kind of, that was the impression that i got, but. Oh, I don't know. I guess I didn't get that because like the second that um the boy, the brother first introduces the boy to her, I knew exactly what was going to happen. Like I, okay there was something in the way they did that where I was like,
00:27:30
Speaker
And I, and I could also, I, she seemed like the type of girl and I knew girls like this, like really quiet girls who could like carry on like a sexual relationship and not talk about it with anybody.
00:27:43
Speaker
That was something I felt about that character. And like that yeah and she, and I knew people like that, people who were just like not into like the high school gossip thing and actually could like keep things to themselves, like sort of yeah of an early sense of maturity.
00:27:59
Speaker
um So it was believable to me that she would keep it completely separate and like the brother wouldn't find out and things like that. Yeah. I definitely was not having sex in high school, but if I was, I'd like to think I'd be a little bit more like that too. You probably would have been like that.
00:28:15
Speaker
um I wasn't having sex in high school either. there So. Oh, wow. We're perfect. Precious angels. Late bloomers. Late bloomers.
Real-life Parallels: Daniel LaPlante
00:28:25
Speaker
um anyway all right let's talk about you you're gonna lead daniel la plant so let's talk about him yeah so the reason i chose this guy was kind because he kind of the theme of the story kind of echoes like a couple of things from the movie um he kind of fits the the same he kind of has the same vibe as like the creepy guy in the presence movie and also there is a kind of sort of
00:28:50
Speaker
It doesn't turn out to be a supernatural element, but there's a presumed supernatural element to the story that we're going to go into. So, yeah. so So Daniel Plant, he was born in 1970. He was described as having like an unsettling appearance. He had unkempt, greasy hair, pale skin, a gaunt face, which added to his eerie demeanor and his it was I will say though, did googling him. He wasn't like a bad looking kid. no he wasn't bad looking, but he definitely has that like weird guy look. Um, like the very black, like dark hair. Um, it's interesting. So from he, well, we always kind of go into the childhood and that's always lot of the same kind of stuff when we talk about these guys, but, um, he was raised in an abusive household. There were reports of like sexual abuse by his father and stepfather.
00:29:40
Speaker
um He struggled at school. He was, um, withdrawn, kind of erratic, um, diagnosed with learning disabilities, um, but never really treated for them. And he exhibited a lot of early signs of deviant behavior. So like breaking into homes and burgling and this kind of stuff.
00:29:58
Speaker
But the, probably the most notorious case that he's known for relates to a family called Andrews family. So it started out, um, LaPlante began harassing the 15 year old daughter, um Tina, after obtaining her number through school records.
00:30:18
Speaker
And just to give you a bit of backstory on the family, they're a family of three. So it's a dad and two daughters, mom. um I think she had cancer and she passed away like a couple of years prior. Cancer and like ah died fairly quickly. Like it wasn't like a long protracted.
00:30:33
Speaker
ah So sort of a shocking recent death of the family. Recent ish. Yeah. So Daniel, he gets hold of um one of the girl's numbers and he just starts sort of calling the house and like talking to her. i thought that Different reports say different things. Cause some, some things I saw say that they did like maybe briefly,
00:30:53
Speaker
have an amicable, like, like maybe for a little bit, they were dating the way teens. yeah, well, I'll get to this. Like kind of, this is kind of what leads into that. So it starts off, he gets her number and he's like calling the house um and speaking with her and he's quite charming on the phone. He's well-mannered and um he calls a few times and eventually she does agree to meet up with him and go on a date.
00:31:17
Speaker
He, he has kind of catfished her and like lied about what he looks like. Um, so when they meet, she's, she's kind of disappointed. Um, she was sort of shocked by his appearance in comparison to the guy that she expected she would be to be meeting, but she goes along with it anyway. And they, they, they go on a date and stuff. Um, but she's not interested in sort pursuing it further from what have gleaned.
00:31:44
Speaker
So the Tina and her sister who are, grieving their recently deceased mother, Tina and the sister, they they start hearing these like unusual noises around the house.
00:31:56
Speaker
Um, and they kind of get the impression that it might be their recently deceased mother attempting to get back in touch with them. They kind of feel like maybe there's a sort of presence in the house.
00:32:07
Speaker
So they decide that they're going to do a seance and during the seance. Um, these like noises are like amplified, they hear like banging and stuff. And shortly after, um unexplained events begin occurring. So there are a lot of knocking sounds, objects moving on their own, cryptic messages start appearing on the walls.
00:32:27
Speaker
And the girls initially believe that they've successfully contacted a spirit. They don't necessarily know whether it's their mother, they think it is. um But they soon realize something a lot more sinister is happening.
00:32:41
Speaker
Yes. I also want to say at this point in the podcast that one time my friends brought a Ouija board to a birthday party of mine and my boyfriend said that we should never mess with stuff like that because it's demonic. Um, and I've come to believe that he's correct. So I think it's a bad idea. Yeah. I think it's a bad idea too.
00:33:02
Speaker
I think it was, it wasn't it like originally invented as like a toy? Yeah. And this is also, I think it's worth mentioning before we say like the more sinister stuff that happens that we're right in the middle of the eighties, which in America and probably in Britain too, there was a, um you know, a huge amount of like satanic panic sort of stuff going on and toys like Ouija boards were really popular and kids were sort of like for the first time ever getting into sort of like goth, you know,
00:33:31
Speaker
um stuff. like Anyway, it was that era where there was a lot of, you know, and this stuff going on. Yeah. um So anyway, so there are objects like being moved around cryptic messages being left on the walls.
00:33:47
Speaker
And there are a few occasions where Tina and her sister are so scared that they like run out of the house and run to the neighbors. um They do tell their father about this.
00:33:58
Speaker
But he doesn't believe them. He thinks that it's like an overactive imagination or it's like stress over their mother passing. But he, he thinks that they're responsible for the things that are going on. Um, he doesn't believe that naturally you, you wouldn't, I mean, you wouldn't believe that there was a spirit in the house. Yeah. He becomes like really concerned about his daughter is like, perhaps this is like a mental health, like cry for help sort of thing.
00:34:23
Speaker
Yeah. The turning point comes when the the girls see something in the house and they run over to the neighbors and they're terrified and the dad goes... This is the first time they see the writing on the wall. can't remember what the writing said. I didn't know that down. I don't remember what the writing said, but there's, but okay. So the girls, ah whatever it is, the girls see writing on the wall, run their home alone, which is frequent for them because their dad works multiple jobs to support the family and they run over to the neighbor's house.
00:34:53
Speaker
And this is when the first time it happens, the dad is angry. at Is that the one you were going to talk about? Yeah. So the the dad obviously becomes angry at the girls. He he doesn't believe them. And i think he sort of decides that he's going to send them to see a psychiatrist.
00:35:10
Speaker
Yes. um The second time this happens, the dad himself actually encounters LaPlante in their home.
00:35:21
Speaker
And he's found wearing the clothes of their deceased mother and wielding a hatchet. So he manages to get the girls out to safety and he calls the police for help. Well, a few things, I think a few things happen in between that are sort of interesting. on. oh Sorry.
00:35:37
Speaker
Sorry, Vicky. This is what happens when I do my homework like seconds before I watch, we record. Cause now it's like all very fresh in my head, but yeah. So, he so the dad just sees this man burst out of the house in a dress, wielding a hatchet. he,
00:35:52
Speaker
they call the police and the police are like, you shouldn't stay in the house um right now because, you know, ah obviously this, you know, we haven't apprehended this person. they actually go, whole family goes and stays with like a family member nearby.
00:36:08
Speaker
but after a couple of weeks that gets really exhausting um for obvious reasons, it's hard to like sleep on couches and stuff. So they decide to go back and they decide it's safe because the dad, you know, is basically like,
00:36:23
Speaker
The police are doing drive-bys the neighborhood, like blah, blah, blah, whatever. And when they go back, the dad sees that there's a light on in the house. And Daniel LaPlante is actually still in the house. And that's when he's apprehended, I thought.
00:36:36
Speaker
Yeah, the police have been watching the house the whole time that they're away. And they haven't seen anyone, like, come or go at all. Right, he's maybe been in there the whole time. But they managed to arrest him that night, I thought.
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So he... he gets arrested and the authorities discover that he's been living in a crawl space inside their walls for weeks. um he After he was arrested, despite his disturbing behavior, because he was deemed a juvenile, he was placed in a juvenile detention center and due to procedural delays and a lack of adequate psychiatric evaluation, he was released on bail in October of 1987.
00:37:21
Speaker
So he doesn't stay in jail, basically. Apparently in the Massachusetts legal system at the time had very lenient policies regarding juvenile offenders, and that was what allowed him to be free despite his previous offenses.
00:37:34
Speaker
So before this, he's been responsible for like burglaries and so a petty crime like that. So he does have a record, um but they so they still decide to let him out.
00:37:45
Speaker
um Authorities obviously underestimated the severity of his psychological state. And this ends up leading to a tragic miscalculation.
00:37:57
Speaker
um Before I move on to the sort of escalation of his crimes, is there anything else that you want to talk about with him? um I guess I just want to mention that, you know, when they opened the crawl space, they realized that he has basically like, I think he like was able to move some stuff, but basically he was able to move very freely throughout the walls of this like old house.
Living Within Walls: Structural Insights
00:38:22
Speaker
um This is, this is something that to me, I like, I know that houses are built very differently in America. You usually build them from like timber frame and everything in the UK is usually brick.
00:38:34
Speaker
But like, is this like, I know it's kind of a trope for a guy to be like living in your walls, but it's just like, is that normal to have enough space for somebody to do that in a house? like Well, I, this isn't, I mean, I'm just guessing um because of where it is, but we're in New England, we're in Massachusetts.
00:38:51
Speaker
These are old houses. um So houses in America are now, not really built like this anymore. but um, I mean, they're built significantly like cheaper and shittier, but, but like, um, but like the old house, I, you know, I think, and I could be, I just, I, I have one relative who like renovated a very old house in new England.
00:39:15
Speaker
You know, I think that they like, you know, it was, it was back when they had to like insulate walls super well, because there weren't like heating systems and like the only, ah you know, when they built these houses and the only heating pad is from fireplaces and things like that. So it's like, I think there is sometimes space in the walls where there would have at one point been probably asbestos filled insulation and things like that.
00:39:43
Speaker
to keep the house, um, to keep warm, um, which at this point in the eighties would have been like removed because clearly like central heating and things like that would have been installed. Um, and from thepress and In New England, in that part of the country in particular, there are often, um and in the Midwest, um anywhere there's these old houses. ah Because in the western half of the U.S., s you can't really build basements because it's there's a lot of like hard rock. That's what the ground's made of. but and
00:40:17
Speaker
But in the Northeast and the Midwest, you can build these really big basements. So a lot of houses in the Northeast have these like, really, really big unfinished basement areas where there would be parts of it that are sort of like walled off. And like, I mean, that is, that is true. I don't know why yeah it's like that, but like I've been in many houses where like, if you go downstairs, it's like, there's a whole sort of like labyrinth of like an unfinished basement, which obviously if you have enough money, people,
00:40:53
Speaker
you know, nowadays do finish them and make them nice and make them like part of the house. But in the old, you know, in the old times, it was just where you stored, like, I remember when we went to my 105 year old great grandma's house after she died, like, you know, her basement was just filled with like jars of like peaches and stuff, you know, like old stuff that you would just like store down there.
00:41:17
Speaker
So yeah, I guess I could see how he would, i mean, they don't really, nothing that I found online went into like, how much he was able to move throughout the walls. But like, apparently it was like pretty, like kind of a lot, it seemed. Yeah. I do wonder to like whether he was legitimately like living in the walls or just kind of like coming and going for like stretches. um Well, could imagine, like, when he maybe, like, if he was there, like, I could imagine, like, while they were asleep, maybe he just, like, slept in the basement.
00:41:49
Speaker
And then when they were out of the house, he can obviously move around the house freely. But there was probably some coming and going. Because, like, they it seems like from everything I read, these were, like... people kind of living in the same neighborhood or like relatively small town.
00:42:04
Speaker
so yeah, clearly he was also a juvenile. So I'm sure he had to make, even though his house was abusive and neglectful, like I'm sure he had to make like some appearances at his home or they would have noticed that he was gone. yeah um So able to? what about Now to get into the crimes that he's like jailed
Crime Escalation and Consequences
00:42:25
Speaker
for.
00:42:25
Speaker
Yeah. So he was released in October after the is incident with the Andrews family. And only two months later on December the 1st, 1987, LaPlante breaks into the home of Priscilla Gustafson, a pregnant woman who lives with her two children, Abigail and William.
00:42:50
Speaker
She is married, um, but her husband is at work at the time. um he, bound and shot Priscilla multiple times in her bed and then drowned both children in separate bathtubs in the house.
00:43:07
Speaker
Um, the father obviously comes home and discovers what's happened. i can't even imagine like, coming home and like finding that. there It's horrible. It's like, it's impossible to even imagine, but yeah. So he, obviously his crimes escalate and he is, um, tried and as an adult and he's actually still alive.
00:43:29
Speaker
Yeah. So he, he, there was a bit of a manhunt cause he, he does escape. Um, he doesn't escape from jail, but he like, he doesn't stick around after he's murdered this family. He kind of goes on the run and there's a manhunt for him, but,
00:43:44
Speaker
um Due to his like previous incident with like the Andrews family, the police have a fairly good idea that he's the guy responsible. And they eventually track him down days later, hiding in a dumpster.
00:43:56
Speaker
He's convicted in 1988, so the following year, and he's sentenced to three consecutive life sentences without parole. Yeah, and I just read this because I went back to make sure I was getting this right, but like ah that was after a forensic psychiatrist, which is maybe my dream job, although I'd probably be like really even more fucked up than I am now if I had that job.
00:44:17
Speaker
But anyway, a forensic search psychiatrist said that he had no remorse for his crimes. um And yeah, it seems like from what... his at least the Wikipedia said he's at this super max, like, federal prison in Colorado. Yeah.
00:44:33
Speaker
I don't... Do you think that if he wasn't apprehended, do you think he would have done this already to the Andrews family? do you think he was, like, or always destined to, like, do this unless he was locked up or like, i don't know. Well, it's hard. I mean, obviously I'm sort of a conspiracy head. So I've read a lot about like the birth of serial killers in the seventies and eighties. And like, there's always sort of like the same pattern of, um, childhood sexual abuse, neglect, um, early petty crimes, uh, you know, boundary crossing stuff that creeps people out.
00:45:13
Speaker
cross-dressing as he was doing. Yeah. Common. um And then... ah Yeah, eventually this sort of, you know, breakout of, you know, either so this would be more of a spree killing than a serial
Psychological Analysis of Criminal Behavior
00:45:27
Speaker
killing. I don't know if he was headed toward that with the with the Andrews family, but I definitely think that, you know, when the dad discovered him, he immediately was wielding a hatchet.
00:45:38
Speaker
So to me, if he had been caught in a different circumstances, like by one of the girls or something, he probably would have definitely um killed them, is my guess. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:45:50
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I do think he was like, kind of doomed, like to do this. I don't know what. i mean, yeah, I mean, I can't, I know plenty of people who have experienced like, extreme forms of childhood abuse, including sexual abuse, who go on to lead like normal productive lives, but um something like, yeah, I don't know. There's something in certain people that it just like flips a switch and they just can't.
00:46:19
Speaker
But then you have cases like Dahmer, which we've never, we haven't talked about on here yet but we will at some point, like, you know, by all accounts, Dahmer had maybe a sort of neglectful childhood, but not like one that included any sort of like abuse or anything.
00:46:36
Speaker
No, he's like, his parents seemed like reasonable enough. Yeah, I mean, I think he was left to his own devices a lot. like Like I said, neglectful. Like they weren't really keeping an eye on him the way they should have.
00:46:50
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, but it is interesting because it's like when you look at these cases, like Bundy and Dahmer, you know, don't have any of this stuff in their past. And they still ended up committing these like horrific crimes. Yeah.
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah. Have you ever met anyone in real life, like, where you've kind of just got that vibe from them? like Like, in school or, like, as an adult, where you just, like, meet someone and you're just like, this person's evil.
00:47:20
Speaker
Like, legitimately evil. Because I feel like... I've definitely met people with, like, sociopathic tendencies. Yeah, me too. i It's, like, always, like, a matter of degree, of course.
00:47:33
Speaker
Yeah, I've definitely had, like... people in my life before who are sociopathic and it's, I don't know, it's, it's, it's, it's unnerving, like you're trying to sort of like, especially if there's someone that's close to you, trying to sort of like gently like ease them out of your life without like causing too much trouble. Cause think you always have that kind of fear of them. but Yeah. I mean, the people I've met who are like that tend to just sort of are very manipulative.
00:48:02
Speaker
And, um but you know, I don't always think these people end up like killing people. Obviously not. No, but they will ruin your life. Yeah. Sometimes I think that they're like actually very successful people. um You know, there's been studies done that like CEOs of like major companies have like, like score higher on like sociopathic like ah tests than like the average population, which makes sense.
00:48:30
Speaker
Like to be able to sort of um rise in that way, you have to kind of cut off your emotions a little bit. Yeah. But yeah, I've definitely met people who who have like less, I mean, there's some people like flying into my brain right away who just have like, let like just seem to like not understand like emotions or have like less emotions and can be very, I've seen them, I've seen them mostly manipulate like social situations. But what's weird is like, you know, this guy, Daniel LaPlante, like,
00:49:05
Speaker
It's like the ones who end up killing are the ones who like can't find a way. Cause like one thing I've found with some of these sociopath kind of personalities is they're very charismatic.
00:49:20
Speaker
And if they're good looking, they can sort of kind of maneuver social situations to like suit their needs. Um, And I think if they find a way to like, kind of have that kind of success, um you know, their like need for like manipulation and control is sort of like satiated. But I think if they're sort of like outcasted, um like some of the, like many of these people are, it's like, they can't, you know, they like, uh,
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah, they this is like what they turn to. I mean, to some extent, I think everyone has like maybe a little bit of this in them. Like, I do think people...
00:50:04
Speaker
whether they are willing to admit it to themselves or not, have like some desire to like control others. And like, it's just depends, it's just like depends on like the mechanism you use. Cause I've also met people who are like hyper emotional people who are also very,
Home Invasion Fears
00:50:19
Speaker
and and like, even I have like recognized in myself sometimes, like I use my hyper emotionality to, uh,
00:50:28
Speaker
you know, like defend myself or what, you know what I mean? like yeah Like, so it's like, there's all sorts of ways that people can have that tendency. Yeah. It's the thing that's, I think is interesting to me about him is like, I mean, obviously the murder of the mom and her two kids is awful and terrible, but there are like, there are plenty of other killers out there who've done like similarly, like egregious things, but like the,
00:50:59
Speaker
The notion of like toying with a grieving family, like for like an extended period like that and sort of, I don't know, like, like convincing them that they're sort of in commune with their like dead mother. Like, but I don't know that, that kind of level of like fucking about with people is just, it's so bizarre to me. I don't know.
00:51:25
Speaker
Well, if I had to guess just from everything we've read about him, would I would think that his motives were probably primarily sexual, like spying on the sister and things like that. But then as time progressed, it like, he discovered this like other thing he could do, but i would, I would initially his motives were like deviant sexual behavior, like just wanting to sort of spy on them and things like that, you know? Yeah, I guess so.
00:51:52
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. Dear, it's like, Oh, I just hate the idea of like, I find like sort of like home invasion type stuff way more scary than like, I don't know, like ghost movies or like whenever that, whenever it's a movie with like real people, like just like breaking into your home, like a lot of like French movies, I feel like are always about shit like this, but um yeah, I don't know. That kind of just gets the crap out me. know. Whenever I watch home invasion movies with my weird girls movie club, I always make a joke that like,
00:52:25
Speaker
I feel like I would just ask the killer. I would be like, please don't rape me and please kill me outside of the house. Cause for some reason, the idea of being killed like in your house is like so horrible.
00:52:36
Speaker
I would rather be killed on like the front lawn or something, but like just. It also just, ruins your house for like everybody else forever for all time as well. I feel like nobody's, nobody ever like, cause it definitely leaves a mark on a place when somebody dies there.
00:52:51
Speaker
I mean, imagine what therapy these girls probably had to go through. Like, what a horrifying, like, thing to... I mean, they're definitely still alive. I mean, I'm sure they have no interest in doing, like, interviews or anything about this, but it's just fascinating. Andrew's girls come on the pod. It's just fascinating that, like... Yeah, i can't even imagine the amount of, like, psychiatric help I would need if this if this had happened. But also, it could be one of those things that, like...
00:53:19
Speaker
something so horrible like this happens to you and then you're just kind of like, well, I survived that. Maybe it gave them like a ah sense of like, you know, invincibility. I don't know. if Let's hope so.
00:53:32
Speaker
Yeah. I do wonder how I would cope with like a super traumatic. Could you imagine them like going, like when they're house hunting for their first houses, like I would be like knocking. out mouth and Checking how thin all the walls
Cultural Comparisons: Housing Structures
00:53:47
Speaker
are. Yeah. Or just being like, I absolutely want to live in a brick house. Like I need like full brick, like nothing. Yeah. Oh, I don't know.
00:53:59
Speaker
Yeah. We never have like, we, you do have basements very occasionally in the UK and like, very rich houses or very, very, very old houses. But like, well, isn't it like pretty uncommon to have a freestanding house like that? Like even in the suburbs, it's usually like terraced housing. Um, it kind of varies. I've never lived in a terraced house. I've always lived in a freestanding house, but, um, but my parents were like sort of lower middle class.
00:54:29
Speaker
So, um, but yeah, there are a lot of like houses there. I mean, literally my only reference is having been to London twice and gone to suburbs one of those times.
00:54:40
Speaker
Also Harry Potter, because Harry Potter, and when they show his suburb, it's like the... Yeah, his like I think his are semi-detached, so it's like two houses together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:54:52
Speaker
but Yeah, it's... it's like Those, like, terrace houses in London are, like, two million pounds at least. No, no, no. not even what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about... I know. Like, yeah, like... Because I... haveve Yeah, one... way i did go to... last time I was in London, I went to... ah no Where's that town? Oh, Stratford upon Avon where Shakespeare.
00:55:11
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway. And then I did like a huge, like three hour walk where we went like away from all the touristy stuff and like walked around a bunch of just like look houses and they were all sort of like that, these like semi-detached sort of situations, which I was like, nice. It's like kind of like a nice, because one thing about American suburbs is they can feel like super isolating and, you know,
00:55:33
Speaker
like Yeah. Especially if you don't know your neighbors, but then I don't know. I mean, I live in an apartment now and I don't really know my neighbors. I find there are like hundreds of people around and they can still feel quite isolated. I'm like endlessly annoyed by hearing my neighbors do like anything.
Shared Living Experiences
00:55:49
Speaker
My neighbors are like, so I live in an, um I live in, i guess I live in like what's called a duplex, but it's like, instead of side by side, it's like just two units, one's at the bottom and one's at the top and we're at the top.
00:56:00
Speaker
um And it's like, I'm my boyfriend's always making fun of me because it's like, I get annoyed. Like they're very quiet and chill. And I get annoyed. They make like this, like if they turn on their like bathroom fan, I'm like, Oh yeah. Like I can hear the fan.
00:56:18
Speaker
um ah But it's like, it's like such a mind. It's like not even that big of a deal, you know, like they never throw parties or do anything like that. It's just, don't know. Yeah. Yeah. The only times I can hear my neighbors is whenever they use the washing machine or whenever they have sex. And I hate it when I can hear them having sex. It's like the most awkward thing in the world.
00:56:39
Speaker
Just hear this like, They've obviously got quite a creaky bed and you just hear the like repetitive creak. like it And it's just like, oh no, I need to put my headphones in and die Although when she was pregnant, my neighbor, the guy was having night terrors and I heard him scream a few times in the night to the point where finally i i didn't go to them and bring it up. But like the next time I ran into them like on the stairs, I was like,
00:57:04
Speaker
is everything okay? could tell people were sort of embarrassed. They were like, oh, but he's having these night terrors. He gets them. He's he's stressed about you know becoming a dad.
00:57:17
Speaker
Yeah, i've I've had night terrors like on and off for like most of my life. And like some of the worst ones I've had, I've like woke up like screaming or like punched boyfriends in the face and stuff. And um yeah. i've never I've never screamed. My boyfriend has reported a few times he's woken me up and I said, what was I doing? And he said that you were making like scared sounds. Like I was like, yeah.
00:57:45
Speaker
I never remember what the dream is when I'm woken up, but ah guess I'm just having scary, scary dreams. um All right, guys. Well, we hope you have sweet dreams and we'll talk to you soon.
00:57:58
Speaker
Bye, Twinkies.