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Episode 11: Trevor's a F*g
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This week, the boys take on Cruel Intentions (1999)—the teen movie that taught us it’s okay to be evil as long as you’re hot and rich. We talk cocaine-filled lockets, non-verbal Asian housemaids, and the death of the horny, mean-spirited teen movie.
You can put it anywhere… just not in the culture anymore.
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Transcript
Revisiting 'Cruel Intentions': Influence on Teen Dramas
00:00:36
Speaker
All right. Welcome back, Twinkies. Oh, shit. I've dropped my mic already.
00:00:42
Speaker
Okay. Professional production. that um We're coming to you with a quick one because I ah you know i felt like it had been a little bit of time and I wanted to do something that we could ah do fast and easy. So we did cruel and we watched Cruel Intentions. Both of us just finished it again just now.
00:01:03
Speaker
We did. I've watched Cruel Intentions before, and I've probably even talked about it on podcasts before.
First Impressions as Teenagers
00:01:09
Speaker
um i kind of love this movie. I think like everything like from Gossip Girls, all that stuff, OC, Laguna Beat, I feel like it's all downstream of Cruel Intentions. Yeah, for sure.
00:01:23
Speaker
k naughty rich teens acting ah bad. But I i think what's the reason I wanted to do it with you, Vicky, was because i feel like it's a movie. It's one of those movies that could never be made again now Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:40
Speaker
um my God. um Yeah. Do you remember like, you remember the first time that you saw it Definitely. I was in, I was definitely a kid, like high school or something.
00:01:51
Speaker
Yeah, me too. Cause I, i I remember quite vividly the first time that I saw it Well, I didn't see the whole movie. I saw bits of it. So I was, um shock horror, I was a Buffy geek when I was a kid.
00:02:06
Speaker
I used to watch, um they used to add Buffy at like 6.45 on the BBC Two on like a Thursday. And it was always like censored. So it didn't have any of the like sort of blood or like gore or anything in it and any kind of like vaguely sexual stuff was taken out. But i used to watch it with my dad when I was like, probably like 10.
00:02:28
Speaker
um And I remember we went on like a family
Sexual Awakenings and Media Evolution
00:02:32
Speaker
holiday to Center Parks, which for American listeners is kind of like a sort of ah glorified like middle class camping trip place.
00:02:44
Speaker
um But you stay in these like little cabin things. And it was on TV like quite late at night. And I watched a little bit of it with my brother. And I was completely, it sounds really, I'm not beating the prude allegations, but like, i think when I was a kid, like if there was somebody sort of famous that I really, really liked, I kind of expected them to be like pure at all times.
00:03:08
Speaker
And seeing like Sarah Michelle Gellar talk like candidly about sex, just like horrified me. And I was probably like 10 or 11, maybe 12.
00:03:19
Speaker
How old would I be when this came out? Yeah, probably like 10-ish. um And I didn't really know that much about sex anyway. I was kind of a a late bloomer. But like hearing her like saying stuff that was so like naughty was like horrifying to me.
00:03:36
Speaker
And then I kind of rewatched it when I was a teenager and I
Reese and Ryan's On-Screen Chemistry
00:03:39
Speaker
really loved it. Yeah, I mean, my memory of it is i feel like one of the first big jack-off fantasies is you see like Ryan Felipe's ass for like,
00:03:50
Speaker
maybe two seconds. we do Yeah. And it's so funny to look back on like the innocence of the fact that i was able to like fully orgasm to that for like weeks on, like without like no porn, no nothing, just like,
00:04:11
Speaker
this still a shot of like not even having the still shot in front of me, just the memory of the still shot. Yeah. You wouldn't like pause the, pause the VHS. new got Luckily, luckily my parents, like I didn't have any TV in my room or any, you know what i mean? So like the only access I had was like in a public area, but it's just funny to look at how much your brain gets eroded as you like actually begin to have sex and then actually have access to porn because like,
00:04:38
Speaker
now like seeing that it's like nothing you know what i mean but yeah at the time seeing his perfect round twink ass i was like oh my god like yeah he's like he say it's funny like um he's like probably the only actor that i can think of that's like managed to actually skirt twink forever like he's like 50 now and he still looks like i don't know 30 he's like insane um He's not my type at all, but, like, he he is... I was just watching the movie,
Adaptation of 'Dangerous Liaisons'
00:05:11
Speaker
like, before we started recording, and, yeah, he is, like, insanely beautiful-looking.
00:05:16
Speaker
it is It is crazy because i think him and Reese Witherspoon, like, essentially met on that set. Yeah, she was, like, pregnant by the time the movie came out, I think. Yeah, and I was about to say, like, it's pretty likely that she...
00:05:33
Speaker
was pregnant during even part of the filming of this movie. Yeah. um And she's super young. like She is. She's very cute though. Yeah. Like people don't realize that um she got married basically like at like 20 or something like that. So.
00:05:52
Speaker
Yeah. I think maybe, I think she was. Yeah. She got married. there Oh, actually i okay. This is even crazier. She got married on her 21st birthday. in 1997. So they were actually already married in this film.
00:06:06
Speaker
Oh no, she met Ryan Felipe at her 21st birthday. They got engaged during the filming of this film. And then, yeah, she had, she had the baby like less than a year after the film was. Yeah. So she was probably pregnant when they were filming. I imagine, I don't know.
00:06:22
Speaker
um But regardless, yeah, it's crazy. Go on. I said, I just said there's a lot of funny lore around the film. Yeah. I was like, it was funny while I was watching it, I i was thinking like, um like Ryan Phillippe, is it Phillippe or Phillippe? I don't know how you fucking say it.
00:06:41
Speaker
um His like performance in this movie is like the best gay performance ever on screen that isn't a gay person. Like he's so queer in this movie, like his his mannerisms and like the way he speaks is just like, yeah, he's like a raving queen, um but it's good.
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah. And there are some like, we'll get into it, but there are some explicitly i gay, you know, um like there are some explicitly gay moments in this.
00:07:11
Speaker
It's funny, like there's there's like lines when he gets like really sassy and you do kind of hear like a little bit of a like New York, almost like New Jersey type twang to his accent. as i So he's like a real housewife. Yeah.
00:07:23
Speaker
So let's talk about the film. um Like let's, we can go through it like base by base. um It is a, very, very, very loose um adaptation of Dangerous Liaisons, which is a French epistolary novel that was published in 1782. It's the story of, that that is the story of two amoral lovers turned rivals who amused themselves by ruining others.
00:07:53
Speaker
um It was supposed to show the corruption and depravity of the French ah nobility and it was released right before the revolution so it has a very um it has a very like ah interesting historical context and there is another pretty famous film called Dangerous Liaisons very old it's starring jen ah glen Glenn Close Uma Thurman Keanu Reeves and that came out in the 80s so have you seen that?
New York's Fantasy and Gilded Aesthetics
00:08:26
Speaker
I haven't seen it, but oh my god you need to watch it. It's very good. Yeah. But this is an incredibly loose adaptation of that. It it takes place in what I would call like a fictional New York city, because there's so many moments in it that like, uh, you can tell it's not supposed to take place in a realistic New York city. Like the two characters live in this like giant Gothic palace and on the upper East side. And like,
00:08:55
Speaker
that sort of home hasn't existed since like the early 1900s. I mean, there's there's big houses in the Upper East Side, but not like this. It's like, you know, it takes up like a city block.
00:09:07
Speaker
um And one thing that I laugh about a lot is that like, there's this constant, like he has a, Ryan Felipe's character, Sebastian has a car and he's kind of constantly flitting back and forth between like what you're supposed to sort of assume is the Hamptons in New York City, but it takes him like,
00:09:24
Speaker
you know, seemingly like a half an hour when really that would be like a four hour track. um So yeah, I think it takes place in sort of like a fictionalized, like fantastical New York City where it's like imagining if the Gilded Age had sort of continued, you know, like into the 90s.
00:09:46
Speaker
Cause there's, all they actually used a lot of Gilded Age sets um while they were filming like old mansions. ah that, you know, are not actually ah residences anymore, but are like basically museums.
00:10:03
Speaker
The satinage would be gorgeous. Like, I don't know, like, especially like the blue bedroom, like Catherine's bedroom. oh my God, that's like my dream bedroom. i would die to live somewhere like that.
00:10:15
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And the last thing I'll set up context wise before we like go into the plot is that it's kind of a movie that takes place like sans any real adults.
00:10:26
Speaker
Like um you never see ah Sebastian or um you never see Sebastian or Catherine's parents and the adults that are there are very like superfluous to the film.
Manipulation and Revenge in the Plot
00:10:43
Speaker
So it's one of those movies that again is sort of like Gossip Girl in the sense that like part of the fantasy a little bit is that like, these kids are getting to live like adults with unlimited financial resources, but they don't have the adult supervision that would typically come with that.
00:11:00
Speaker
The one notable exception being Christine Bransky, which we'll get to, plays a very hilarious mother of Selma Blair. um Anyway, so the movie opens with ah Sebastian is in therapy,
00:11:16
Speaker
with kind of a MILF therapist. um And he is, you can tell sort of being condescending to her. um And ah as he leaves the therapist's office, he makes this comment like great legs.
00:11:34
Speaker
And then the therapist's daughter played by pre-drug abuse Tara Reid, yeah calls and is crying and tells her mother that a boy told her she had great legs and took nude photographs of her that he posted online.
00:11:52
Speaker
ah So right away, we're in like a pre revenge porn laws era, obviously. Yeah. um And, you know, ah that's supposed to set up this character as Sebastian is basically like a sexual manipulator, a sexual predator.
00:12:13
Speaker
um He goes home to his ridiculous Gothic non-existent mansion and his sister Catherine is there and she's meeting with Christine Bransky and Christine Bransky's daughter who's played by Selma where selma Blair and their name her name is Cecile.
00:12:33
Speaker
Now, one thing that I find incredible about this ah casting choice is that Selma Blair is 28.
00:12:42
Speaker
um when she's acting in this movie, but she's playing a character that's supposed to be actually not even a freshman yet, an incoming freshman at this high school. So she's playing what is essentially supposed to be an eighth grader.
00:12:57
Speaker
so is that like 15 or something? No, it's like 13. no it's not. Yes, it is. She's supposed to be playing basically like an, well, maybe 14. She's supposed to be playing like an incoming to high school freshman. Yeah.
00:13:12
Speaker
I kind of got the impression she was supposed to be like 15 or 16 or something. No, no. She's supposed to be 14. So this is actually like an incredible thing to watch. Like why they didn't pick and ah younger actress, I don't know. And the funniest part is, is that Selma Blair's acting choices in this movie are basically like, she's playing like basically what I would say is like a retarded 14 year old girl. Yeah.
00:13:40
Speaker
she's probably like the weakest actor in the movie as well in terms of her, like her performance. Like she's, she's quite funny and charming in some scenes, but like the, the scene, like particularly like the famous scene in the park, which we will get to like her, like line delivery in that scene is so bad.
00:14:00
Speaker
um But, but yeah, I don't know. I think, I think regardless of her age, I think she's kind of well suited to the part. I think it's funny and it kind of adds to the charm of the movie.
00:14:12
Speaker
I mean, calling her the weakest actress is so funny because like she had like an impossible job, right? Like a 28 year old to play such a young character. Like, I mean, I feel like they just put her in there because it was like, okay, we need to have like all these really, really famous, like nineties, like young actors and actresses. So they were like, why shouldn't Selma Blair be there? But it just was like, what the fuck? It doesn't make like any sense. Yeah.
00:14:38
Speaker
Um, I did keep calling her Neve Campbell too, but she's different than Neve Campbell. They're kind of. Yes. Fire of scream and wild things. So basically Catherine, once Cecile and her mom leave, Catherine basically says that her boyfriend, and there's some really, I took some notes. There's some really funny, there's a funny line that um Ryan Felipe goes, the Nazi who dumped you on 4th of July.
00:15:06
Speaker
stay here it flashes back to an image of um ah Catherine trying to give him a blowjob, but he's like passed out drunk.
00:15:17
Speaker
ah Yeah, in the back of a car or something. um Anyway, yeah. so he broke up with Catherine because he's infatuated with Cecile. so and then So what Catherine wants is for Ryan Felipe's character, Sebastian, to seduce Cecile and ruin her reputation as a um good girl.
00:15:41
Speaker
um So that court, her Nazi boyfriend, um like rejects her and comes back to Catherine or whatever. But Sebastian's plan is to try to fuck Reese Witherspoon, who is an avowed um virgin who is moving to New York City to be to because her father took the job as headmaster the fancy private school.
00:16:09
Speaker
um they, ah you know, they go to. um There's a few funny lines because they're reading Reese Witherspoon's interview. Why Reese Witherspoon as the daughter of a headmaster would be like interviewed in Teen Vogue, who knows?
00:16:24
Speaker
But she's being interviewed and she's being interviewed in Teen Vogue and she's talking about how she has a boyfriend, but she wants to save herself for marriage. The boyfriend's name is Trevor. um Sarah Jessica Parker says Trevor's a fag.
00:16:38
Speaker
which makes me laugh. They say faggot a lot in this movie. They do say faggot a lot. That's so funny. There's a lot of them gentle homophobic slurring. I like that. She also calls her brother a queer.
00:16:51
Speaker
um But anyway, they end up coming to like sort of a deal and basically if he can fuck Reese Witherspoon before the school year starts,
00:17:04
Speaker
um she'll let him fuck her in the ass sort of the implication. Well, yeah, she kind of like, she says basically, um, that like, cause she doesn't think he'll be able to fuck this virgin chick.
00:17:19
Speaker
Um, so she sort of says like, oh, if, if I win and you can't fuck her, then I'll have your car. Um, but if you win, like, um, I'll fuck your brains out. And then he's like, no deal. And then she's like, well, you can put it anywhere.
00:17:33
Speaker
Obviously. suggesting that the ass is on the menu. Yeah. So stepsister anal promise, um, which is, yeah, very funny. Um, so then they both go off to do their own little, uh, yeah, like their own little, um, devious plans.
00:17:54
Speaker
I find the stepsister anal promise to be very hilarious as like the selling point for this guy. Yeah. Yeah. who presumably has like, you know, had had a lot of boutique sexual experiences.
00:18:09
Speaker
um Obviously this whole movie, I guess should be stated is like so far, given our last episode, is like so far between Me Too, like from Me Too that like the like ethics of what these people are doing is like, but I mean, you're supposed to think of them as bad, but also like sexy and cool. yeah There's no real like exploration of...
00:18:30
Speaker
you know, I don't know, whatever. Anyway. so um, and Ryan Felipe end ends up being sort of the hero of this film, even though he does like a lot of super questionable things throughout it.
00:18:44
Speaker
Um, so Ryan Felipe jets off in his little car out to long Island where the, uh, Reese Witherspoon is staying with his aunt, very convenient, who has this like crazy mansion in Long Island. Again, non-existent house. I looked it up. It's a, it's a house that was like a Gilded Age, like mansion. Yeah. It looks like a British countryside estate. Like it's, it's crazy.
Catherine's Dark Persona
00:19:11
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, those houses, like, I mean, they exist, but like similar to British country house estates, like, ah i'm sure some british country house estates are still privately owned probably more than in america but in america those um you know those houses are like now like essentially like museums or like wellness centers or like you know they've been like converted from their like original um meaning yeah it's kind of the same here even the ones that are privately owned like the
00:19:44
Speaker
Families will rarely like live in the entire house and they'll usually be rented out as like a wedding venue or something like this to kind of like keep the lights on because they're so expensive to run.
00:19:55
Speaker
um But yeah, it's ah yeah it's a ah gorgeous house. Yeah, so hes goes out there and then Catherine, Sarah Michelle Gellar's character, goes to try to ruin Cecile.
00:20:09
Speaker
um There's a few really funny... but things Like Catherine's character has this like Vietnamese slave servant woman who follows her around who like is nonverbal, I guess.
00:20:29
Speaker
And ah there's a really funny scene when she shows up at Cecile's apartment and Cecile is sort of, flirting with her, um, black viola teacher. Um, and she knocks something over and she goes, Mei Ling, be careful.
00:20:45
Speaker
We've had this discussion. So, um, there's a lot of like covert racism in the film. Um, again, like what couldn't be made today, um, without some big, like, you know, freak out. And it is funny because i watched the film,
00:21:03
Speaker
attempt they had at remaking Cruel Intentions that came out last year that totally flopped. And this was like a big problem for the series they tried to do because it's like, it just doesn't work if these people are like anxious about like, you know seeming good.
00:21:22
Speaker
You know what I mean? Like they make a ton of them black or no. Yeah. I mean, they, they, dive the main, the Cecile character is black and, Okay. um She's the daughter of the vice president of the United States is what they call it.
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. um Very weird choice. And everyone is like firmly mentioned many times. It's like, set it takes place in college and everyone is like firmly mentioned many times, like over 18.
00:21:53
Speaker
Okay. They like do a lot of stuff to make it like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. um Whereas these characters are all supposed like so supposedly under 18, even though none of the actors were. Yeah. so obviously Catherine, you know, realizes she has like kind of a Trump card because Cecile's into this like black viola teacher, she'll be able to like, you know, potentially blackmail her or like use that in some way.
00:22:26
Speaker
She sets up a camera so she can like watch what they're doing in their apartment.
Sebastian and Annette's Complex Dynamics
00:22:30
Speaker
Um, And then, right, I'm just going to go with, like, even though these are happening simultaneously, we'll go back to Sebastian. But then there's the famous scene in Central Park where Catherine and Cecile are having this, like, um...
00:22:47
Speaker
picnic in the park, which cracks me up because like the picnic they're having would have required so much to be carried out to the park. Mei Ling nowhere in sight. So I was sort of like, did Mei Ling have to carry all this out? And then like go sit by a tree or something. I don't know. But anyway, they're like drinking out of like champagne flutes and stuff in the park, um having this elaborate picnic. And they, um you know, basically she says to Cecile, like you got to practice kissing and they make out and a really, really kind of disgusting closeup where you see like lots of spit and like stuff. Yeah. It's like that famous like string of like saliva when they finally sort pull away from each other. It's kind of, it's a lot.
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah. So it's a really famous like lesbian kiss scene. it's supposed to be the beginning of Cecile's like sexual destruction or whatever. um And yeah, so that's going on and one end. Oh, i also think I should mention something that I find very interesting.
00:23:57
Speaker
kind of difficult about this film is like, uh, one thing about Catherine, Sarah Michelle Gellar's character, she wears a huge cross pendant around her neck that has cocaine in it.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah. Um, but the way she uses the cocaine is like very baffling to me as someone who has used cocaine in the past. Like she takes these like minor little bumps, like, yeah, um, And like doesn't seem to do more of it and just sort of like takes a bump in the middle of the day and then like goes about her day. But if you've ever used cocaine, that's like kind of a horrific way to use it because you're going to do like your little bump at noon and then you're just going to feel like shit by like 1245. And like you're going to. You know what I mean?
00:24:43
Speaker
Maybe she just does a bump every like 45 minutes off screen and we don't see it. They just don't, they don't make it seem like that's what she's doing, but it's just really funny that like, she's doing these like very small amounts of cocaine and then just like, I i don't know. It doesn't really make sense to me because i feel like cocaine is the type of drug that like, once you start doing it, you're going to keep doing it until you, you know, pass out basically.
00:25:09
Speaker
Gabi with like the Titanic necklace for like one of the most famous like movie necklaces of all time, though. Yeah, and it's funny because how much cocaine could she even like feasibly fit in this necklace? Probably not very much, you know? No.
00:25:24
Speaker
um But it's a cool idea. It's a cool idea. i get it. We're supposed to like, she's sacrilegious, you know? Um, so that's going on on one end. And then Sebastian is now out at the country house, staying with his aunt and he's beginning to try to seduce, uh, Reese Witherspoon.
00:25:42
Speaker
um,
00:25:44
Speaker
he, I guess the first thing he does is he plays really loud music throughout the mansion's speaker system, which brings Reese Witherspoon to the pool, which is where we get the famous ass shot of Ryan Felipe and they swim together. And that's like his first move he makes on her.
00:26:05
Speaker
Yeah. um We should say like, kind of just to sort preface this, um the first kind of interaction that they have, like, he's sort of playing like nice as pie and stuff. And then she kind of reveals that, um, that she's kind of already aware of his like reputation from a friend.
00:26:25
Speaker
Um, but she won't sort of name who it is. And he's kind of like, um, curious to sort of find out who this friend is. That's been like bad mouthing him to her. Um, cause it might sort of potentially like screw up his plans.
00:26:39
Speaker
And that kind of sort comes into effect a little bit later in the movie with, Joshua Jackson and the the gay football player guy. Well, yeah, we can get into that because that's kind of the next thing that happens. So seba sebatsh semash and Sebastian wants to figure out like who the fuck could have told her about him. And um he thinks it's this guy, this like football player who's like a closeted gay guy um who told her. So his plan is, and and the only reason he thinks that is because that's one of the few people Reese Witherspoon knows at the school.
00:27:13
Speaker
So he hatches this plan with his drug dealer gay friend. um ah A ton of hilarious homophobic lines come out in this. um But the gay friend is like, Grant likes to tackle tight ends on and off the field.
00:27:31
Speaker
Um, anyway, whatever they, they set up a, the plan is for him to the gay friend to lure the football player, the football trade over to his apartment and start having sex with him. And then Ryan Felipe is going to walk in and take pictures.
00:27:46
Speaker
This goes off without a hitch. Um, it happens. Uh, Ryan Felipe manages to get the photos and, uh, brought up an old gay slur that I had forgotten about, but it made me laugh. He was like, how's your dad going to feel when he finds out you're a little fudge packer?
00:28:03
Speaker
Yeah. Fudge packers, like, it's never really been a ah common one in the UK. But I have heard it in like movies and stuff before. And when I think about it on a visual level, it's fucking disgusting. Because the implication is obviously like,
00:28:19
Speaker
poop like of course yeah it's very funny um i think it's a funny one it was a very turn of i guess we'll say turn of the century um it was a very like 2000s uh you know ah like early 2000s late 90s like it was all it also was something else that went away it was also there with flamer yeah it's also kind of it's also kind of cute seeing like um like joshua jackson who like most people at the time would know as like Pacey from Dawson's Creek, like playing like a ah raving queen.
00:28:54
Speaker
Like nowadays they would just get a gay guy, but like this is back when you could have like straight actors like playing gays and really like hamming it up. And he's very funny in the role. Yeah. And it's like a very unsympathetic gay character. Like, yeah.
00:29:09
Speaker
Yeah. He's awful. Yeah. He doesn't like have any like morals or anything. um Um, the only thing, not that anything about this movie is realistic, but I was thinking about how, like, if you were a gay guy especially in the nineties and you had access to like hot trade, would you like so easily give it up for this black, for the blackmail purposes? and Um, but I guess we're supposed to assume this guy just gets laid all the time and it like doesn't, you know,
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, that was that was my kind of impression. He doesn't seem like he's doing too badly. So anyway, closeted gay football player then begins like basically working for Sebastian and ah talking up, saying Sebastian's really nice and really sweet and blah, blah, blah.
00:29:58
Speaker
And then what's eventually revealed, which brings the two storylines together, is that Cecile's mom, Christine Bransky, is the one who warned Reese Witherspoon about Sebastian. So now Sebastian has interest in fucking up cecial ah Christine Bransky's daughter, Cecile's life. So now he's on board with Sarah Jessica Parker's whole plan to sex her. Michelle Gilliam.
00:30:27
Speaker
Sarah Michelle Gellar. I keep getting the names wrong. Now he's on board with fucking up her, uh, fucking up Cecile's life. So, um, that brings the two like stories together.
00:30:39
Speaker
Christine Bransky is hilarious in this role too. We'll, we'll talk about some of her really good, um scenes. Um, and So basically the first thing they do now that they're teamed up is they reveal to Christine Bransky that the daughter is writing love letters with um her black music teacher. Yeah. So Christine Varansky then ah fires him in this really, really, really amazing scene where she's like, I took you off the streets and this is how you repay me. And he's like, I live at 59th and Park, which is like a really nice area. Yeah.
00:31:23
Speaker
Um, and then she, he's like, I thought you would be more open in this day and age. And she goes, don't give me but any of that racist crap. My husband and I gave to Colin Powell. Um, anyway, very funny scene. So, and then right afterwards, um, Catherine and Sebastian meet him, the black music teacher. And they're like, we can help facilitate communication between you and Cecile. yeah.
00:31:48
Speaker
So that's what they do. They, they are, you know, going to facilitate the communication between ah the two of them. And now they're like completely in the middle of Cecile's life. So the next thing that happens is Cecile, um they get Cecile to...
00:32:09
Speaker
claim or they get the seal to sneak out and go over to Sebastian's, I don't know, wherever he is, is his house. Apartment. House. Thing. Mansion.
00:32:20
Speaker
Gothic. Hello. He gets her drunk and manipulates her into letting him go down on her basically. um And the next day she tells Sarah Michelle Gellar about it. And this is their big opportunity to ruin her.
00:32:35
Speaker
um Sarah Michelle Gellar is like, this is a great thing. You should use Sebastian for, you know, practice. ah That scene, that particular like scene where he like goes down on her, like,
00:32:50
Speaker
It's very funny, but like that they would never do that now ever. Like it reeks of like me too. Um, cause yeah, he starts off like, he's just like taking photographs of her and she's like wearing like this, like really unflattering, like red hoodie. And then he's like, oh try and be sexy. And she sort of tries to do sort of sexy poses as though she's like a 12 year old trying to imitate a sexy person.
00:33:16
Speaker
Um, And then he kind of like he says that he wants to give her a kiss, and then she she sort of puckers her lips up, and he's like, no, I want to give you a kiss down there. And then he just sort does it without asking. um And she kind of just goes along with it.
00:33:30
Speaker
um That's definitely the kind of um behavior that would be reframed as rape in 2025. I mean, not to mention that he got a what we're supposed to believe is a 14 year old drunk, uh, without telling her he was getting her drunk in order to achieve all this. I just can't, I can't like think of this character as a 14 year old. yeah Like she's like 17 or 16 in my head. I feel like that scene depicts a sexual assault. I mean, but you like it kind of does, but I also feel like, I don't know if you go off the idea that like this character is 14 or 15, even,
00:34:08
Speaker
or fifteen even like it kind of, it completely changes the dynamic of the relationship with the music teacher, which is kind of like played as like seemingly like fairly wholesome. Like it seems like they genuinely do like really like each other.
00:34:25
Speaker
um And I don't know, i like now i now you've said that and sort like, oh, I actually like, If I was Christine Baranski, I would have kicked her out of my house. because I mean, I think we're supposed to believe, as ah as implausible as it is, that all that this music teacher and all of these characters are teenagers.
00:34:44
Speaker
Okay. Even the music teacher, I thought he was supposed to be like 25 or something. No, I think they're all supposed to be teenagers. so like So like any of that is kind of like out the window, but like, whatever. I mean, the scene is definitely played for laughs. It's not played as like a sort of like...
00:35:03
Speaker
assault scene. um and i don't think they could ever film a scene like that and play it for laughs, uh, nowadays, you know, uh, it would, I wish they would.
00:35:16
Speaker
Yeah. So anyway, so Cecile begins fucking him with fucking Sebastian and, uh, I guess full consent this time.
00:35:27
Speaker
And that's, you know, the beginning of her, whatever, ruination of her, um, her sexual life. Um, and then we're supposed to believe that, uh, anyway, whatever. So now Sebastian is spending more time with Reese Witherspoon. Um, um,
00:35:52
Speaker
he kind of, I don't know. You're supposed to believe that he's developing like real feelings for her. I think that's the way it's like played in the movie. Although he does still ultimately like push for sex with her. Like, even though he's developing real feelings for her, he doesn't like really completely lose sight of his like sinister goals.
Tension and Betrayal Lead to Climax
00:36:16
Speaker
Yeah. I do. I do think that the, like, I really like this movie. Don't get me wrong, but I feel like the, the romance between those two is probably kind of the weakest, like, Oh, the least, maybe not the weakest, but the least kind of developed part of the story. Like it, it doesn't really, it just kind of sort of springs up out of nowhere that they have feelings for each other. And there isn't really too much that kind of like, um, sells that to the audience. Um, I mean, they, put they, they insert that one scene where they have to go to the nursing home and, and he's like,
00:36:51
Speaker
he's he's like telling the grandma like that they've been playing backgammon stuff. Yeah. That, that seems quite funny and cute, but, um but yeah, I guess in a 90 minute movie, like what are you really going to,
00:37:02
Speaker
It is funny though that it's so undeveloped because as we know in like IRL at this point, like Reese Witherspoon and Ryan Felipe are presumably having a ton of sex and yeah ah and married and and getting and getting pregnant. So, um but I mean the whole thing you have to like remember, which is like something that's just so funny about this movie is like all of these characters are supposed to be, they're they're all trying to seem way younger than they are.
00:37:28
Speaker
Yeah. Um, so not even though they're all adults in real life, they're trying to seem like they're trying to seem like adult. They're trying to seem like teenagers who want to act like adults.
00:37:40
Speaker
Yeah. That's what I would say. Like the, the acting choices are, but that ends up just being really, um, Really funny. um So basically then he tells her that he won.
00:37:55
Speaker
um and but at this point, Sebastian is so like in love with Reese Witherspoon and that um he like rejects Sarah Michelle Gellar's like offer for sex. And basically the implication is, is that like he is now like a changed man.
00:38:17
Speaker
Um, then he decides that I guess the best way to like set Reese Witherspoon free, which is like kind of really stupid is that he's going to lie to her and he tells her that he only wanted her for sex and feels nothing for her.
00:38:34
Speaker
um and she like throws him out of the, Yeah. She throws him out and basically Catherine reveal Sarah Michelle Gellar reveals like the whole time she was fucking with him. I don't know if we're supposed to believe that, but that's like what, that's like sort of the implication. And then Sarah Michelle Gellar as a weird little side note is fucking the now fucking the music teacher.
00:39:02
Speaker
Yeah. There's a weird scene where like and Ryan Phillippe's character, like, and comes in and he can hear them like having sex and then he goes into a bedroom and she's just sitting on the bed normally. Um, but he knows there's like a guy in there and he pulls these like drawers from like under the bed and he's just, the black guy is just there with like this little like fluffy thing on his hand and he sort of does this little wave at him. It's very cute.
00:39:25
Speaker
Yeah. So then, um Sarah Michelle Gellar's um,
00:39:30
Speaker
uh, act is she does a very kind of, it makes me laugh, like female thing where she like calls the black music teacher. I think we should use his name. Um, his name is Ronald. She calls Ronald and says that basically Sebastian hurt her and that he slept with Cecile. So Ronald comes to confront Sebastian and they get into a fight in central park.
00:39:57
Speaker
Um, and, And then Reese Witherspoon is randomly there. Yeah. She's kind of come, um, cause, oh yeah, we missed out a little bit. So she, he sort of tries to win her back by like giving her his journal that he's kind of been keeping all of the secrets of his like conquest and his, um, relationship with Catherine. And he like gives her a copy of his journal. And I think she's kind of read it and decided that she's going to give him another chance. So she sort of comes out to try and find him at the same time that,
00:40:29
Speaker
Ronald, the black guy, is also looking for him to beat him up. um So she happens to be there to like witness them to like scrapping in the street like two gents. Yeah, so as she tries to go break it up, she gets thrown into oncoming traffic. And then Sebastian pushes her out of the way and gets by a car um and dies. It's so funny. It doesn't look like the kind of accident that would kill you like when you watch it on screen.
00:40:59
Speaker
Like, he looks like he'd be hurt, but not, like, dead. No, no, definitely not. And then, yeah, as he's dying, he says, like, I love you. And she says, I love you, too And they have a sweet little moment before he cries. Yeah. He had to be hurt enough to, like, die, but, like, not hurt enough that they, like, couldn't have that that moment. Yeah, he's got to look nice.
00:41:23
Speaker
Yeah. So... Now we like flash forward a little bit to the funeral and Sarah Michelle Gellar is giving her speech. um Presumably she like has gotten away with it all. You know, that's supposed to be the implication. then they,
00:41:41
Speaker
but then they
Legacy of 'Cruel Intentions' and Its Soundtrack
00:41:45
Speaker
Uh, unbeknownst to her, both Cecile and, Reese. Annette.
00:41:52
Speaker
Annette. Reese Witherspoon. I think that's the first time we've said her name, Annette. Yeah. Both Annette and Cecile have like sabotaged Catherine by making copies of the journal that they've like passed out to everyone. And, um, you know, Catherine is revealed as ah the devious.
00:42:09
Speaker
Yeah. There's like, there's this really good scene, um, everyone sort of like starts like rushing out of the church and you don't really know what's going on. And she gets progressively more angry because no one's listening to her speech. and then when she finally sort of comes out, they're all just holding these copies of the notebook and like shaking their heads her, like all of these students.
00:42:30
Speaker
I found that there's one like ginger guy who's just like shaking his head from side to side. It's so funny to me. I mean, the whole thing that's so funny about it to me is like, I guess we're supposed to believe that this girl, Catherine, was doing all this shit, but still maintained this like good girl reputation, which seems like very, very, very unbelievable to me. Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:53
Speaker
ah So then um the famous scene, and this is what made me want to rewatch it. Cause I heard bittersweet symphony the other day is Reese Witherspoon is driving away in his car and you hear bittersweet. Yeah. And she's got the journal and like the passenger seat is yeah. It's right.
00:43:10
Speaker
The sound of this movie is genuinely like really good as well. I love like the, The opening of the movie, they have that like placebo song and it's like flying over this like huge graveyard like in front of New York City. and it's It's so good.
00:43:24
Speaker
Yeah. Where Reese Witherspoon is going? like why she needs to drive anywhere funny because presumably she still has to do her last year of high school or whatever but yeah so and then another reason this movie would never be made is because know Sarah Michelle Gellar is like completely like you know made out to be the villain and Sebastian is completely rehabilitated by the end yeah Um, even though like arguably, I guess they, what they both did was bad, but like Sebastian probably did worse things than her. I don't know. It's just kind of funny that.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know. It's funny. It's one of those things as well. I like that. Like it's such a good movie and it's so watchable, but like they've tried like so many times since it came out to just sort of recapture like the magic of it and they just
Nostalgia for Late 90s Teen Movies
00:44:21
Speaker
can't do it. I remember I had, um,
00:44:24
Speaker
I had Cruel Intentions 2 on DVD when I was like probably 12 or 13. got it in the bargain bin of a DVD store in the UK.
00:44:38
Speaker
And like it's it's supposed to be like a prequel to the movie. And apparently, it was originally like a TV pilot that just never got picked up. So they like shot some extra scenes and then sort of tried to shove all together into a movie.
00:44:52
Speaker
um And it's got like some big names and I think Amy Adams plays like the Sarah Michelle Gellar character, but it's awful. It's so bad. Um, that's the, the only thing sort of like I really remember about it is there's a lot more like nudity in it. You see like boobs and stuff, but it's awful.
00:45:10
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking a lot about this because I do feel like there was a time like there was sort of this like weird, and I actually have fun little fact. Reese Witherspoon was hosting Saturday night live on September 11th, which I find very ironic.
00:45:27
Speaker
um But there was sort of like a I don't know if it ended quite and in 2001, but like, I feel like movies were the most fun they ever got like between 1995 and like 2005, because I've been thinking about like, bring it on.
00:45:44
Speaker
um i've been thinking about like all these, like, you know, I think me, I think mean girls was right at the tail end of that, like 2005, there was just something like teen movies, I think had their heyday. Um,
00:45:57
Speaker
like in that era. um And I guess the reason I feel like those were the best is a few reasons is like the movies still look modern. They don't look dated or old, yeah um but they, they have, um it was also before,
00:46:16
Speaker
you know, like social media, basically like has to become a big part of any teen show now. And once social media is a part of it, it's like, I think it kind of ruins the feel of like what those, you know, i don't know. It's like, it doesn't, it doesn't work as well if you have to. listen And I think as well, like there's a, there's a real fear now, I think, especially in like teen movies of,
00:46:44
Speaker
characters being like mean and likable. And like, you could be so, you could be so mean in those old movies and still be, still be like a really likable character. Like I, all of the characters in this movie are horrible people apart from maybe Annette.
00:46:59
Speaker
But they come out with like the the funniest, like one-liners that you just love them. And you could obviously get away with saying a lot more. So there's, there's a lot of like slurs and stuff and the humor's kind of crass. um But you just, I feel like everything is so,
00:47:14
Speaker
watered down now. Like even when you have like a sort of mean girl type character, they're never really that bad. Yeah. And part of the problem is, is like, you know, the all seeing eye of Sauron, you know, of social media means that like teens post, you know, 2005 or so are like never, you know, there's a kind of like constant endless voyeur where like all their peers are sort of constantly watching and
00:47:47
Speaker
ah filming and picking pictures of them. So there's a self-consciousness that you like, just can't, you know, it just, you can't escape from. And I find that really sad because it's like, now think about like what you have to do for like a teen movie. Okay. So it's like routine show, even like,
00:48:06
Speaker
you have euphoria for instance but euphoria is definitely supposed to be like you know a dark show like yeah
Modern Teen Media vs. Past Films
00:48:14
Speaker
not a comedy right it's like supposed to be like a dark twisted um fucked up like show so you can do that of course and like make all this commentary about how like our society has degraded to the point that you know teens are doing all these hard drugs and shit it's funny i talked um i this is like I think maybe last year or the year before I went on like Mac and Monty's podcast to talk about skins.
00:48:41
Speaker
Um, I don't know if you ever watched skins like the UK TV show. Um, but like we were talking a little bit there about like, so euphoria is kind of like a copy of a copy of a copy of like skins.
00:48:53
Speaker
Um, cause that was like, that was an Israeli show called euphoria that was based on skins. And then the American series is like copied from the Israeli series. And it's, It just gets gradually less like fun. Cause like the, one of the things that was great about skins was like, it dealt with a lot of the same kind of dark themes as euphoria, but there was still a lot of like humor in it.
00:49:15
Speaker
And euphoria is just so like bleak and gray and miserable. I don't know. I, i yeah, it doesn't do it for me.
00:49:26
Speaker
Yeah. And then I think about movies like, um, you know, what was that movie with, uh, Rachel Sennett? Um, I don't know who that is She's like the big tittied,
00:49:40
Speaker
um actress, they're always like memeing. Okay. Anyway, she was in this movie called, um, Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, which came out in 2022. Oh, I did watch that, I think. Yeah. Which is like a fun movie, but it's like the, the thing that makes it hard to watch and like maybe even less fun to watch some movies like this is like all of the characters are so dipped and immersed in like this like kind of the endless thoughts of like thousands and thousands of people from social media that like everything they say is like steeped in so many layers of irony. You know what they mean? That it's like...
00:50:16
Speaker
It's just like you can't, you know, you really can't escape it. It's just like, um it's it's just, that's like what every teen movie has to be now. So it either has to be like super dark or it has to be like steeped in so many layers of irony that it's like, it doesn't have this kind of lighthearted feel.
00:50:35
Speaker
Not to mention like, every teen movie now has to have, you know, some sort of like, even euphoria has to have some sort of like body diversity message. So yeah you can't just have like, you know, unambiguously like hot people. you have to like comment on that. And the characters have to be like hyper aware of like racism and, you know, like classism. and Yeah. You saw that when they tried to, they tried to bring Gossip Girl back. They did like a Gossip Girl like reboot and they'd,
00:51:06
Speaker
all of the characters were like very diverse and it just, it just didn't work. Like they
Decline of Stylish Cinema in Modern Culture
00:51:11
Speaker
need to be. They've tried to do it several times because they tried to do it with Heathers too, which was like a disaster. That was kind of like, that was like the first like right wing um teen TV show though.
00:51:23
Speaker
In a way, in a way that was like very prescient because it was like, ah LGBT people have become the bullies, sort of. I love i kind of liked it. um I didn't, I mean, I love Heather's, the original movie a lot. And the TV show was like, no, not even on a level with it. But I kind of, I kind of appreciated its boldness.
00:51:43
Speaker
I'm also going to make a pretty big claim right now, which i don't really care. You know, the, the 20 to 30 people who listen to us, like, you know, they they'll, they'll appreciate my claim, but I think something has changed because like our elites have gotten so like,
00:52:00
Speaker
ah like boring and they have no style or aesthetics. Like yeah in the sense that like the tech has basically like the tech people have basically like taken over the American elites and like, they're just like so depressing and like deprived of like any interesting aesthetics. And they're just like these soulless, like, you know, kind of like ghoul humans. and yeah One of the things I really noticed when I was rewatching like Cruel Intentions is like,
00:52:29
Speaker
Cause I don't know, people always talk about like how style in the nineties was so bad, but like everyone in this movie looks amazing. The costumes are amazing. Like you could wear most of this stuff now.
00:52:40
Speaker
um None of it is kind of like bad. um Just in general, the movie has just like a really, really good look the whole way through from like the sets to like the costumes, like all of it is just like ah chef's kiss. It's very attractive.
00:52:56
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know. It makes me sad. It makes me feel like our culture has been like so eroded. i know that's such a, like a lame thing to say, but it's like, it's true. I like really do feel that way. Like I was trying to think of the last time something like you're going to get mad at me for saying this, but I went and saw the, um I went and saw the premiere of the wicked trailer. Cause they had like these special screenings in New York.
00:53:23
Speaker
Wow. And I was like, I was like, wait, wait, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. wait So you're, you're telling me that you went out of your way to go somewhere to watch a trailer for a movie.
00:53:38
Speaker
Well, I rewatched the whole Wicked movie, then the trailer. Okay.
00:53:44
Speaker
With a bunch of other fans. That's like those losers who go to the cinema to watch Doctor Who. like I mean, like, I don't care if it's loser behavior. Like, something about Wicked, like, I think because it's, like, I don't know, like, set in this, like, fantasy realm. Like, it, like, doesn't feel, like, as depressing as everything else feels. No, I can i can i can i can appreciate Like, there's something, like, there's something, like, sort of, like, sparkly and, like, effervescent about it that, like, I just think you don't...
00:54:14
Speaker
um I just think you can't really get in like other movies anymore. When does the next one come out so I can kill myself?
00:54:25
Speaker
November. November this year. And then we're done. There's only two, right? Yeah. Have you never, did you ever even go see the first one? No, i tried to watch it for you at home on my computer and I made it, I think maybe five minutes. And I was like, no, i can't, I can't do this.
00:54:44
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not a theater kid, but I have like five to 10% of like theater kid DNA in me. So it does, it does. it does I mean, i do live in New York and I have, I do go to see one or two Broadway plays a year. So I, you know, you know, I have a little bit of that, like in my.
00:55:01
Speaker
yeah I have actually seen Wicked on the West end. Um, I, we went on like a, ah think it was a school trip or a college trip. Um, And I hated it then as well. we went like, ah we, it was like a a trip to London and we watched like the Lion King, Wicked and like Les Miserables across like three days. And I just went, cause I wanted to go and get drunk in London with my friends.
00:55:26
Speaker
And yeah, Wicked was definitely the worst of the three. Lion King being second. I hate the Lion King. I hate the Lion King movie. I can't stand it. Yeah. Unpopular opinion. Everyone loves that movie, but.
00:55:39
Speaker
Anyway, I'm sorry to be such a doomer in this episode. It's just, I'm reading um Edith Wharton right now I'm reading The Custom of the Country and I'm just like, oh God, we used to be like a proper country. Like we used to have like real. Well, you know what you need to do You need to write the next great teen movie.
00:55:58
Speaker
Pull your finger out of your ass and do it. I know I'd have to set it like in the past though, I feel like, like in the in the two thousand You know, i will give one, it's not quite a teen movie, but one movie. And I think because they put it back, that felt refreshing in a way a little bit like maybe cruel intentions felt with salt burn.
00:56:24
Speaker
um And I think the only reason it like passed the test is because they put it just a little bit, you know? Yeah. I what you mean. I think, I think people are really like young people are really craving like sexy movies. And as much as I,
00:56:39
Speaker
didn't really like salt burn. Like i had a lot of issues with the plot. I thought it was ridiculous. Um, and obviously that weird goblin boy should never be allowed to play like a teenager.
00:56:52
Speaker
Um, but it was sexy. Like I had that kind of like sexy, like youthful energy that I think like people are like desperately craving. Yeah, and it was unconcerned with like sort of like the modern sexual like consent mores. You know what i mean? like It showed like you know dark, sexy scenes, for that and it had no interest in... like The movie had zero interest in being like, is this good? Is this bad? What are we looking at? I had none of that like kind that none of that like consent anxiety. It was just sort of like... Yeah.
00:57:24
Speaker
I was sat in a group of people. i won't dox myself, but like a group of people that I didn't really know very well like recently. They were talking about salt burn and they were all sort of like, don't know, like late twenties, early thirties. And they were all like horrified by it. Like I've never heard anyone so scandalized by like a movie. And I was like, God, you should see some of this shit I watch. Like they were like offended by it.
00:57:48
Speaker
Yeah. Like really offended, especially like the bathtub scene. Okay. It's not that bad. Jesus Christ. don't I think of apply myself as a prude, but like compared some people.
00:58:01
Speaker
Yeah, it's gotten worse. um is that a new Is that a new tattoo or have I just never seen you in and short sleeves? um No, I've had this for like probably like 10 years. I only have one tattoo.
00:58:14
Speaker
I'm not doxing myself. I won't tell anyone what it is It's only that one. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. Let's call it Twinkies. We'll see you soon. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Love you.