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Uphill Athlete Book Club: Luis Benitez- Higher Ground
4.7k Plays2 months ago
On this episode of the Uphill Athlete podcast, book club edition, Steve dives into the minds of today's most inspiring authors and helps listeners to learn from the mountain world's most important thought leaders. In this book club episode, Steve welcomes Luis Benitez to the podcast to discuss his new book, Higher Ground. Luis is a mountain guide, government worker, executive leadership development expert, and professor among many other positions. Steve and Luis break down the impetus for Higher Ground and the main thesis of the book, the human potential within the mountain community at large. You can find out more about the book at www.highergroundbook.com.
If you would like to learn more about Uphill Athlete, please visit us at uphillathlete.com
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the uphill athlete podcast, where from time to time, we dive deep into the minds of today's most inspiring authors and learn from the mountain world's most important thought leaders. I'm your host today, Steve Haus, and today we have a very special guest joining us. Someone I've had the pleasure of working with and learning from in the past. Please welcome Luis Benitez.
00:00:32
Speaker
The author of a brand new book, Higher Ground. Louise, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Steve. And as we were saying before we got um on the air, I can't believe that we're both sitting here getting a chance to do this. This is really special. Yeah, yeah, it's really cool. It's been amazing to watch all the work you've been doing the last few years. so Oh, the last time.
Reminiscing Past Encounters
00:00:56
Speaker
The last time we met, we were in Aspen, and if I remember right, Odin Schindler, the ah VP of Sustainability at Aspen Ski Corp had had us there, and we each did a talk to a group of ah folks there, and we got to get out and go ice climbing. and That's right. That was some years ago. That was probably at this point closing in on eight or nine years ago, yeah.
00:01:22
Speaker
yeah It's amazing how people in that space want to hear from people that they define as adventurers and and want to glean some sense of different modalities of leadership. That was really fun. All I remember about that ice climbing day was it was really cold, super cold. Yeah, it was super cold. Yeah, I remember that too. and I also remember being glad that it was hot cold because the ice was right you know kind of brittle. Yeah, that's right. kind of oh and yeah So, you know, one other ah one of the things that I remember about that was, you know, in that evening you talked about your climb Everest, I forgot which year it was, and
00:02:07
Speaker
you know I've heard a lot of people talk about Everest, so you know I don't have super high expectations, nothing nothing against you
Everest Adventures and Leadership
00:02:15
Speaker
personally. but it wass like okay like you know I haven't heard your story before, but yeah and it was really good. like and you know I was really, really impressed with how you connected ah the the the things you'd learned along the way with leadership and you know also what you'd learned through Outward Bound and what this meant in terms of sustainability and helping to to essentially help Aspen lead in an area that was they felt very important for them to lead in. And I think that was a really well done talk. so Thank you. Boy, coming from you, that's that's high praise. yeah Well, I felt overshadowed that evening. let me
00:02:59
Speaker
That's got to be hard to do, so i I'll take that compliment. you know For me, and and we've talked about this before, my journey on Everest for you know working on that mountain for just about a decade.
00:03:11
Speaker
You know, my first time there was with Eric Leinmayer, the blind climber. So, you know, I went to Everest into the Himalayas with a much different intention and purpose um and mindset in terms of really helping Eric understand what what he thought was possible and to quiet the naysayers and and prove that you know despite the adversity that he faced, that climbing Everest was possible. um I was 28 going on, 29 years old on that expedition, and it changed the trajectory of my life. um Went to work for adventure consultants, ended up globetrotting and guiding the seven summits for a decade, along with all my own personal climbing. And that's really when I first, when you and I first met in the big mountains on Choe U. Do you remember that?
00:03:59
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that was 2001. Yeah, that was after September. Were you on an adventure consultants trip? No. Was that an AC trip or was it? 2001, I think I was still working for Alpine Ascent International. Okay, yeah, that's right. I was still with AEI and you were trying a speed ascent and I just remember watching you burn through Camp 1 and thinking, boy, I'm getting to watch what what's next, what's next for our community and what's next for
Mountain Culture and Personal Background
00:04:29
Speaker
our culture. And for me, that's really what it's always been about, is less about working with clients expedition after expedition and more about really understanding what does this ecosystem and culture and community need to some of these greater, larger global questions that I think we face. o Yeah, I love that.
00:04:51
Speaker
you know You you you and bring up global questions, and one thing that I think is important for our audience to know about you, because I think it's it's unique and it gives you a special perspective, not only the globe-trotting, but you know you're what I would call a bicultural kid, as are my kids, having grown up between the US and Austria, and you grew up between Ecuador and the US.
00:05:15
Speaker
Has that shaped your worldview, having having come from you know growing up in these two different cultures, two different languages? Oh, 100%. And I know that you you know it's such a point of joy for me to watch you know through social media and just talking to you how you know youre you immerse your kids in the culture that they come from. And for me, um it it was the same thing. I was fortunate enough to have a parent like you are, that made it very clear that, you know, to to understand where you're going, you need to understand where you come from. And while I grew up between the United States and and Ecuador, it was incredibly important that to my father, who was the only one out of his family to leave Latin America for for school, that I spend a significant portion of every year back back in Ecuador. And I come from a
00:06:09
Speaker
a ranching and farming family in Ecuador. So agriculture was a big part of of growing up and understanding how how farm life and ranch life worked. But a lot of my father's brothers, my uncles were also mountaineers um by hobby. So a high altitude mountaineering um was sort of a natural extension of family time down there. And so for me, not only understanding the mountaineering component, but the culture and the community You know, growing up, there weren't a lot of Latin American climbers and alpinists that were in yeah you know in the limelight, in the in the media. you know And so when you hear a lot about this question of equity now in our space, um you know do you see yourself reflected within the community? Back then, um the community in Latin America was full of these incredible alpinist people that were really pushing the edge.
00:07:04
Speaker
um I think Yvonne Vallejo was really the first Ecuadorian to step onto the national scene, climbing all 14, 8,000 meter peaks without oxygen. um And I think that really changed the game for Ecuadorian stepping into that space. But you know your your question about culture and community, um it it has definitely shaped who I am both as a climber and as a person. Yeah, I can imagine. you know I think that it's it's it's so interesting to to see how, you know
00:07:38
Speaker
you've developed in these ways.
Guiding Principles and Professional Insights
00:07:40
Speaker
I mean, I want to connect back to one other important thread that I think came up through your life and and maybe I'm reading something into it, but you were an outward bound and specifically a Colorado outward bound instructor for a number of years. And that was a big part of you your life and your the way you came in to guiding and bridge that mountaineering to to guiding ah life. Is that? Is that still the case? is that Am I yeah reading into something? No, you're spot on. And you know I think a lot of people have ah a limited understanding of what organizations like Outward Bound and NOLS, National Opera Leadership School, are. I think in in my generation,
00:08:20
Speaker
There were a lot of American alpinists and mountaineers that came through those programs. yeah I was lucky enough to be on the tail end of what I call the the great generation of American climbers, folks like, you know, Chris Warner, Danny Jenkins, Kitty Calhoun Grissom, Pete Athens, Wally Berg, a lot of them worked for the Colorado school. And Matt, 100%.
00:08:48
Speaker
but goes on his brother Yeah, lot of really good climbers came out of that that era for sure. And you know for me, looking at you know the art of guiding and sort of the culture of guiding, for me, it really started as um a mountaineering instructor and as a wilderness instructor. And I think that that's an important distinction because when you look at programs like Outward Bound and Knowles, it's not just about tying in and focusing on the technical aspects and safety. It really is those soft skills regarding that the development of the whole human, personal development, leadership development, conflict resolution, how do you how do you move through mountainous terrain with compassion for yourself and those around you? So there's the technical skills, but there's also the soft skills. And without a doubt, um that really was the cornerstone of of my growth and development into the guiding arena in the United States. you know And I think that that goes far beyond just guiding
00:09:43
Speaker
you know, that that cornerstone, like with with recruiting coaches to work for uphill athlete. I really enjoy interviewing and recruiting mountain guides because they're very often have really good soft skills as we sometimes call them. this And that's very important for coaching. A coach has to be able to connect with their athlete and be empathetic with them and communicate with them clearly and and set the goal and set the pace. A lot of the things that a a mountain guide does. So it's it's I think that those skills have a lot of carry over into different parts of
00:10:18
Speaker
100%, and now that you're in Europe, you know you've you've moved to the place where our profession, I think, is understood at a higher level, and it's seen with a greater amount of respect and understanding. I think the United States is still coming of age of really understanding what this is and what it means. And when you try to explain to people,
00:10:37
Speaker
you know, to get, you know, IFMGA accreditation or the Latin American equivalent ASEIGUM accreditation. um It's years and tens of thousands of dollars and an immense amount of discipline. I think in the United States people still see that as well. So do you run a summer camp? What exactly is it do you do? It's just not understood that there's a very, there's an art to the things that we're talking about.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and science and there's a lot that goes into it. Yeah, I mean, it took me roughly eight years to complete my IMJ certification. oh it's it's ah It's a thing. It's a big thing.
The Political Voice of the Outdoor Industry
00:11:17
Speaker
um You know, I want to get to your book because that's why I wanted to have you on today.
00:11:23
Speaker
um you're It's just out. I've had the great pleasure to read it. you want For those those of ah those people listening who will not have read it most likely yet, tell us a little bit about it. like What is your thesis? absolutely You know, so this is really a culmination of of the thought process around the art and the science of what you and I are discussing and how it impacts our greater world. you know i've I've been lucky enough to live a couple of lifetimes within the outdoor industry and and really focus on different aspects of of our community and our culture and our economy. And I think that's important to talk about.
00:12:01
Speaker
you know In the United States alone, the outdoor recreation industry is $1.1 trillion dollars in consumer spending with a T um and it responsible for over 5 million American jobs. so That's a significant economic engine for the United States. and so Really what the book talks about is my personal journey towards understanding um how this this newly formed political voice for this industry and this economy is evolving. And so when you think about the outdoor recreation industry writ large, you think about amazing people doing amazing things um with really fun gear and really fun places. But then when you really start to boil down you know to the economics,
00:12:45
Speaker
um as a job engine, as an infrastructure engine for different parts of the world, you realize that I think we're we're quickly being impelled towards this place of asking the question of what what does the political voice for this economy look like?
00:13:00
Speaker
And I think that's you know mostly what the book is about, using personal stories to kind of drive the narrative, sort of highlighting my evolution personally towards being able to ask some of these questions in really interesting ways with really amazing people. Yeah. So you're you're trying to but you know distill the political voice or the importance of the political voice of the outdoor industry.
00:13:27
Speaker
Is that a good paraphrase? So take me through one of your formative experiences in this in this area. Like you said, you've lived several lifetimes. We've already talked about a couple of them, actually. We've talked about you know the mountaineer. We've talked about the hourbound instructor. We've talked about the globetrotting mountain guide. And then you've had a few you know speaker at sustainability events in Aspen.
00:13:56
Speaker
We all get invited into those things, don't we? Yeah, you know for me, and you know you and I have talked at at length about this, Steve, you know it was, the the shift for me happened on Cho'oyu, where ironically enough is where we first met yeah um in 2006. And six and you know already to that point, I was starting to feel like um with respect to Everest and other parts of the Himalayas, you know this is a natural resource that belonged to the Sherpa people. And and from a cultural perspective,
00:14:26
Speaker
What are we doing to help them grow their economy and and their leadership, leveraging their own natural resource? And ah while Anshuoyu was witness to a pretty big international incident, there was a ah shooting involving fleeing Tibetan refugees.
00:14:46
Speaker
that I had the opportunity to to speak out on when very few other people would and naively at the time I thought well this is we're witnessing an international incident all of base camp saw these these escaping Tibetan refugees get gunned down on a high mountain pass I thought naively that the industry would speak up about it collectively with one voice, that that would highlight the best of who we are, the best of what we represent, and um this is just how we do business. Sadly, that did not prove to be the case. There was a lot of political wrangling to protect permits and access, um a lot of
00:15:27
Speaker
calls for keeping things quiet to ensure that um business as usual could go on and that was just unacceptable to me and so for the first time I recognized that um the outdoor industry had this capacity to speak with a louder voice but if we choose not to as who we are and what we do or we kind of missing the point. So for me that journey from being quote unquote, just a mountain guide to getting more into the policy and political arena started with that incident. um I was invited into global conversations on human rights, was invited to testify in front of the Spanish Supreme Court for crimes against humanity.
Activism and Influential Meetings
00:16:10
Speaker
um leveled against China and I was the sole witness because of um my involvement in this incident. And the entire time, Steve, I was sitting back thinking to myself, well, I'm going to do all this because I believe in it morally and ethically, but then I'm going to go back to guiding because that's who I am. It's what I do. It's what I've always wanted to do. And I'm not a human rights expert. I'm not a policy expert.
00:16:31
Speaker
um You're just a mountain guide and used air quotes. I want to emphasize yeah, just a mountain guide, right? um But that was my internal my internal dialogue and I'll tell you the special moment out of this entire thing I ended up working for the international campaign for Tibet out of Washington DC a little bit and through that work was invited to an audience with the Dalai Lama I'm thinking it's going to be a handshake, a meet and greet, a picture, and that was going to be the extent of it. But instead, it turned into a 45-minute conversation about culture and community. And I had the audacity to tell this man,
00:17:08
Speaker
um You know, speaking up for your people has cost me work. It's cost me friends. um it's It's really disrupted my life. And he laughed. and He said, you know, Luis, I'd still like to be my people's spiritual leader living in the Batala Palace in Lhasa. But instead, I'm a refugee with a government in exile in a different country. So in essence, he said, sorry, kid, you don't always get what you want.
00:17:33
Speaker
But what he said next really shifted my trajectory said you know sometimes you don't choose your path. Sometimes your path chooses you. And now it's going to be up to you to decide how you want to show up and and it was in that moment that I i knew.
00:17:48
Speaker
that I was no longer just just a mountain guide, that I needed to lean into the space and understand how to help a community and an industry that I love evolve. And that's really what the book is about, is the evolution of our community and our industry into the space of of larger responsibility. Yeah. I think that you know you're articulating and very, very well and much better than I have a thesis that I've kind of been nurturing with epilepsy, which is essentially that there is this massive human potential within the mountain community at large. I mean, that's even the basis of our conversation to say to our community members, look, here's someone, quote unquote, just a mountain guide who's doing some very important work. But then when you think about it, like if you think about, I don't know,
00:18:38
Speaker
and an an astronaut that went up on to become a senator. ah Nobody says he was just an astronaut or she was just an astronaut. and anything you know And so the reason I called that out is because I think it's really important. you know I want to i want to grant try to grant this to you, but also to our community, to owner.
00:19:00
Speaker
it agency and our power and our voice and not think of ourselves as less because we are mountain professionals in many cases or we are coaches or we are, you know, you know, if frankly, most of us are just small business owners, which is arguably the backbone of America. So, you know, and and much of the world economy. So we're not just something we are.
00:19:27
Speaker
something important. A hundred percent. Well, and, you know, I talk about this in the book and it's sort of us stepping into that power. And I think, you know, there's a, there's a reluctance there because, you know, we, most mountain guides, wilderness instructors, you know, you lead a life of service in, in service to others to help others achieve the things that are important to them.
00:19:52
Speaker
and through that, you know get a special satisfaction for being a facilitator of that journey. And for me, the translation was, well, if we're in service to clients that in the United States, that can translate into public service all by itself.
Political Journey and Outdoor Recreation Initiatives
00:20:08
Speaker
And public service and government and and leaning in on on serving the community was really the experiment that we brought into the governor's office way back when in Colorado to create an office for outdoor recreation industry.
00:20:22
Speaker
And at the time, it was an experiment. Utah had an office. Colorado had an office. But I was lucky enough to have a boss and then governor, now Senator John Hickenlooper, to say, go out there and talk to other governors, convince them to create this office.
00:20:38
Speaker
And if their state's economy, if more than 10% of a state's economy is based in outdoor recreation, then they should have this office too. And just a couple of weeks ago, the 21st state just announced the creation of the office. So it went from two states in the US having this office to now 21 states in the US s having this office and all the all the directors get together and the directors are a kaleidoscope of former mountain guides, river guides, wilderness instructors, tourism experts. um These are people that have come up through our ranks and are helping to define and shape that that political and and policy narrative in the US.
00:21:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's an incredible. And so you know give me just just for our audience that doesn't know your story, I think it's worth stepping back and in time and just explaining how this came to be with The Office. and and Yeah.
00:21:35
Speaker
It's a good story. It's a great question. And, you know, I like to tell people this is where, um you know, the strange stuff comes in through social media. So I had stepped away from full-time guiding. I was actually working in the ski industry um for a large ski company in the United States and Colorado on leadership development and talent development, helping them, you know,
00:21:58
Speaker
sort of bring their mid-level and senior level executives up through the ranks with some of those soft skills that we've talked about. So I had found a way to translate some of those skill sets into a different segment of the industry. But at the same time, the community I was living in in Colorado, an eagle, a little 7,500 person bedroom community for for ski mountains in Colorado.
00:22:19
Speaker
I just started to grow dissatisfied with what I was seeing in terms of of town management. um Our mountain biking trails were falling apart. Our river corridor wasn't being utilized. um Businesses on Main Street were hurting. We were just kind of seen as a bedroom community for the big fancy ski mountains up the road. And there was a seat that opened up on town council um and I was encouraged by friends to run. And so first time running for public office,
00:22:46
Speaker
um I ran on a campaign of how to leverage the outdoor industry to make our town better. um and lucky or unluckily enough, got got elected and and really went to work um highlighting the different pieces of things that I think we could invest in, things that we could build upon that would have a greater return for our community's economy. um A lot of those things got visible attention and fell on the desk of the governor as they were starting to think about creating this outdoor industry office. And as these things often do,
00:23:23
Speaker
um because some of the work that I had been doing got the governor's attention, he sort of reached out to his cabinet and said, does anybody know this guy down in Eagle that's that's doing all this work on the outdoor industry? i' I've heard about him. I'd like to talk to him. And the woman that was running the Office of Economic Development and International Trade for him used to be the general counsel of the ski company that that I was working for.
00:23:48
Speaker
So she said, I know him. Let me drop him a note. So I literally got an instant message on Facebook. um Hey, Luis, how you doing? Great. How are you? Hey, listen, the governor's got this crazy idea that he'd like to talk to you about. Would you be interested in coming down to the Capitol and having a conversation?
00:24:09
Speaker
um you know So it was very innocuous, kind of low key. I didn't really think much of it. um I thought it was a great opportunity to catch up with a friend, meet the governor. Wouldn't it be fun? yeah yeah um And boy, if you know anything about John Hickenlooper, um when he has his sights set on a person and a process, he is relentless. um I walked out of the meeting in his office.
00:24:34
Speaker
um not knowing what hit me because he said, I want to do the outdoor recreation industry office. The only way I'm going to do it is if you're the first director, would you be interested in coming down and helping now? And he did this site and like, so let's say site unseen. He'd never met you before. Never met. that's As a leader, that's unusual, right? Like, yeah you know, usually leaders are want to get to know a person a little bit more.
00:24:58
Speaker
had he been like had Did he have a tail on you for the last few months or something? That's exactly that's exactly right. What he did and what he does very well is is ask his larger coalition and his trusted advisors the question, do you know this person? Have you heard about this person? yeah give me Give me all the details he possibly can on on who he is and and what he does. so By the time I walked into that office, he had a very clear sense of what he wanted out of me and and how he thought it would work.
00:25:27
Speaker
um I obviously did not have that benefit. um And as I drove back up to Eagle, you know you know, you and I have been lucky enough to shape our lives, to to live in places and and be parts of communities that we where we want to be. And at the time, um I was married, newly married. My wife was pregnant with our first, our our daughter.
00:25:52
Speaker
I remember going home and and saying, you know, we've worked really hard to shape this incredible life in a mountain community that we love. We get to do all the things we want to do and and earn enough money. And now I'm being asked to to quit all those jobs, to take a pay cut, to move closer to a city, which I swore I would never do.
00:26:12
Speaker
to to work in government, which didn't, you know that that landscape was, um other than the work I had been doing on policy for the international campaign for Tibet was ah a new ah new thing for me. And my wife said, and and by the way, I'm pregnant, I'm gonna have to quit my job as well. Do you think all of that sacrifice is worth it for this?
00:26:36
Speaker
um And there was just something about it that really spoke to the possibility of everything I had been thinking and feeling up to that point. and So we jumped. Amazing. What a story. And so, yeah, I mean, it doesn't, you know, with the with ah with the baby, with the with the pregnancy, it doesn't really get a whole lot more dramatic than that. So, you know, fast forward us, you're what, a couple months later, you're You're at the Colorado State Capitol. Yeah. Sure. And tie and i'm trying to be the second director of a state.
00:27:13
Speaker
but Outdoor Recreation Office. Yep. Yep. Well, so the first one for Colorado and you know, obviously the but the director in Utah and I would talk frequently How do you do this? What do you do? um Where do you even start because this was the job description? Well, how there wasn't one there was nothing on but the first job was write your job description what's it Basically what the governor said was have fun. Don't make anything worse and keep me posted and You know for me being a lifelong you know, recreationist in Colorado, you know, I knew all the pockets and all the communities that I wanted to talk to, what's going well, what isn't going well, what would you do to make it better? um And so the the first idea that I had to really formulate and shape my thinking was to just go on a road trip, literally pack all the toys, go on a road trip around the state and start talking to all the communities that are driven by by these different modalities of recreation.
00:28:10
Speaker
um and rely on them for for the ah economics and the economy of of their communities. And that was a three-month stint pretty much on the road, um going home to you know visit, move houses, sell houses.
00:28:25
Speaker
get a my wife settled in, you know obviously try to spend as much time as possible with my you know growing pregnant wife. um yeah But you know she really understood the importance and the value that this could possibly have if we got this right. And you know what came out of that road trip was really what crafted um the idea of what the office can and should be focusing on. And so we came up with four distinct lanes of work. So economic development, which is obvious, conservation and stewardship, because you know the outdoor industry trades on national natural resources. And so without the correct protection, promotion and utilization of those natural resources, that infrastructure starts to collapse.
00:29:10
Speaker
The third one was education and workforce training. um I was a big believer in just knowing how hard it is for American guides and people in the outdoor industry to kind of hack their education that there needed to be more workforce development opportunities for people in our space. And then the last lane was public health.
00:29:29
Speaker
um We all knew anecdotally that time outside was good for you, but I wanted to codify it. I wanted the Department of Health to say, um not only do we believe in this, but we're going to ensure we invest in green spaces across the state to ensure that citizens have access to time outside. yeah and so yeah You had all that figured out after 90 days.
00:29:51
Speaker
Well, I had a rough idea in a journal that that slowly started to fill out. okay and And I think the other thing that I got from that road trip was starting to build a ah team of advisors and truly a team of riders. Well, if you're outdoors for all, right um I mountain bike, um but I also know that dirt biking,
00:30:13
Speaker
um Moto biking is really big in Colorado. And so having somebody representative on that advisory group from every modality of recreation To really talk about the good the bad and the ugly and the intersectionality with the other segments of the industry Was incredibly important to really flushing out the rough the rough sketch that I just described Yeah, you've got like foot-borne you've got equestrian you've got mountain bikes. You've got and dirt bikes, you've got quads, snow wheels, all of it, hunting, fishing. Yeah, yeah. um You know, every modality, you know, I had skiing on, you know, a couple of athlete friends. And then the snowboarders showed up and said, Well, now wait a minute, we're, we're different. And we've got our own gear and our own culture in our own lane. So, you know, through that process, really understanding what we
00:31:04
Speaker
I didn't understand at the time, but I do now is that we were building a roadmap to help other states who created this office understand sort of what's step one, two, three, and four. And as other states called with interest, started talking to other governors, um whether it was a Republican state or a Democratic state, lead state, we offered that up freely. And so what was that tenure like? So you were there for how long?
00:31:31
Speaker
So I was there in the second term for, for governor Hickenlooper, which was four years. And then I transitioned to the new governor, governor Polis. Um, so I was in the chair for about five years until VF corporation came calling and asking me to jump the fence back over to the private sector. But through but before we get to, to VF Corp, um,
00:31:58
Speaker
You know, what do you feel, looking back, what what do you feel that you accomplished? What are you most proud of accomplishing in those five years? You know, that I can point to one thing. um You know, those four lanes of work that I described to you, um I recognize that if states were sort of left up to their own devices as they created this office, it it could be this just really awful patchwork of goals and priorities driven by the whims of a governor.
00:32:27
Speaker
And while a little presumptuous, I knew that I didn't want that to happen to these offices. So what we did was actually codified those four lanes of work, economic development, conservation and stewardship, education and workforce development and public health into the industry's kind of very own constitution, kind of rules of the road, basically saying to other governors and other directors,
00:32:54
Speaker
Well, it's fantastic that you created the office, and that's wonderful that you hired a director, um but now we're asking you to become a signatory to what we call the the confluence accords.
00:33:06
Speaker
um which basically says that if you have this office, you agree to work in those four lanes. And I'm incredibly proud of the fact that usually when you see a state create the office, the very next thing that happens is that office becoming a signatory to the accords. And and that was drafted and created out of our office in Colorado. That's amazing. So, you know, you got all the ships pointed in the same direction. yeah that mean that's ah That's a big thing, right? Like, I mean,
00:33:37
Speaker
when you're moving big organizations, getting them started in the right direction with that kind of diversity of interests and just humans is, is yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I am not intimately familiar with this space by any means, like but it seems very right on to be trying to set the right direction, at least the same direction, and and to say these this is how we're going to work, these is these are our KPIs, this is what we're going to measure, and this is what this is what we're going to work towards. And it's a coalition of the willing, right? So anybody can look up the accords. If you go to confluenceofstates dot.com, you'll you'll find the accords, the states that are signatories, um and and so we really wanted to make this public
00:34:26
Speaker
um but also as political gravity started to build and momentum started to build, to leave room to be able to ask larger questions of should we now be thinking about creating a federal office of outdoor recreation industry in Washington DC, which is one of the things I'm still working on to this day.
Corporate Transition and Global Policy
00:34:46
Speaker
Okay, so before we get to that and I want to hear about VF Corp and how that how that went down and I remember seeing that news and yeah yeah Well, you know, I think it's it's a byproduct of the job that I just described So obviously one of the goals for that job for the state was economic development and at the time first of all, what year was it? I think that's an important Boy, what year was that? So it was five years ago, so 2019. Yeah, so pre-COVID. 2018, really. Yeah. Yeah, 2018. Yeah, um before COVID. and And so really the conversation was um with VF, whose headquarters was in North Carolina. They own 13 outdoor industry brands like the North Face. and
00:35:37
Speaker
Smart Will, Icebreaker, Timberland, Vans, Dickies. I mean, the list goes on and on. But the the headquarters for all those brands were scattered across the country. um The headquarters was in North Carolina. And through my work for the governor's office, had gotten to know um the CEO of VF a little bit, who ironically enough came from the North Face at a time When um you know you remember this, when we we have to beg, borrow, and steal free gear for expeditions. um And our then CEO, Steve Rendell, was the person that would hire the people that would give the athletes their equipment quota. um And so we were able to have a really fun conversation about, you know look at you now doing this work.
00:36:23
Speaker
and really talking to him about consolidating all the brands and moving the headquarters and all the brands to Denver. So the conversation with v VF really started in the lane of you know looking through how to make the economic side of the industry better in Colorado, um but to also grow, can again, continue to grow that political voice. um So that move ended up happening. Steve ended up moving VF and the majority of the brands under one roof in Denver, and I was still working
00:36:58
Speaker
in the outdoor industry office at the time, and then you know I so just said very innocently, so Steve, when the move's done, who do I talk to about you know policy work, government affairs, stuff that I think you all should lean in on with respect to what the industry is doing?
00:37:15
Speaker
Yeah, you're in my backyard now. Yeah, you're in my backyard now. Who's my contact? Who's my contact? Super innocent question. He said, you know, Luis, we really don't have a sophisticated government affairs function right now.
00:37:29
Speaker
And I said, Steve, if you're a Fortune 500 company, how how is that possible? And you know there's the usual, we rely on um consulting groups and agencies to help us drive that work. I said, okay, well, how about your philanthropic efforts and and where do you how do you define impact?
00:37:47
Speaker
um you know What does philanthropy look like for the brands and for VF because as one of the largest holding companies in the space in the United States, you know and one could argue globally, there's there's a bit of a responsibility there to to give back, not just through free gear, but um making the world and our industry and our ecosystem better.
00:38:10
Speaker
He said, yeah, you know, our our philanthropic pieces could also use a little bit of help. And I should have seen the writing on the wall because literally within the next month and a half, um the formal question came across my desk, would you like to come over and help us um build a ah government affairs function globally for VF and retool the foundation um and get it up and running? And so that that was too good of an opportunity to pass up.
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. And then, you know, in this case, they had a job description for you. I mean, you'd maybe help plant the seed. it Yeah. You got to get, you know, Steve, it's funny, right? I think this happens to a lot of people here. This is now the, this would have been the third job that I got that was just a back of a napkin idea that we didn't have a shape um that that had sort of a concept.
00:39:08
Speaker
um that that part of my job was to help figure it out, to to get in and figure it out. I mean, it's like the the the best metaphor for route finding you would ever wanna leverage. I have a rough idea of direction of travel, have a yeah clear sense that I think I've got the skillset to figure out we where to go and how to get there, um but I have no idea what I'm gonna run into along the way. And that's pretty much how it went down.
00:39:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, again, transferability of skills. Yeah, 100%. Take a napkin with some arcane symbols sketched on it and find my way up a big granite face with that. I mean, how many times have we done that, right? And so you know at this point in my life, and I'm sure it is for you as well, you start to get reflective of of how not only these skill sets transfer, but how am I imparting these skills to my my daughter?
00:40:03
Speaker
to the to the world around me and and what does that mean in the context of ensuring that these things are are these skill sets are transferred yeah to whoop to who comes next. Yeah and it isn't isn't an interesting that you know we continue to go through this cycle of learning, practicing, and teaching, just like you did as an outward bound instructor. But as soon as you acquire a new skill and you've mastered it, then you're immediately thinking about passing it on and teaching it to someone. And and I see that with my kids, too. like you know And things I learn as an entrepreneur running the small business,
00:40:42
Speaker
help whether it's through reading a book or coaching or listening to a podcast or something. And then I'm immediately like, okay, yeah, this is a really cool skill or it's a really great way to you know relate to people or like, how can i how can I help my boys adapt this? And and I also am much more aware and you know I live in a mountain valley in Austria. So you know there's a lot of great things about living here, but there's also, you know how do I say this without getting myself in trouble?
00:41:10
Speaker
there can be people can sometimes have a hard time seeing other perspectives and you know and my kids are growing up in this right so I'm like I'm like acutely aware that I don't want my children to not be able to see other people's perspectives like that's a big deal to me I want to make sure that they can do that and I can see that most people and you know you immediately pick up on those things where if I was 24 years old living here I wouldn't have noticed that so much As you get older, why do you see these things? Well, 100%. As this dialogue, I think globally about equitable access to the outdoors starts to happen, i mean you're seeing it on Everest with the growth of Nepali and Sherpa run guiding agencies where Western and European companies are are taking a back seat quicker and quicker. They've only got a few more years left.
00:42:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. The question of equity is really everywhere within our space. And I think in the yeah at the end of the day, these conversations about different perspectives being really holistic about but what we're thinking and what we're doing in this space and in this industry.
00:42:22
Speaker
It's something else that I talk about in the book. It's really us coming of age. It's us coming of age and and growing our self-awareness around. There is a responsibility to these things, um not just for the actual craft of the trade, but also of the larger voice of what we're responsible for. um and And carrying that responsibility requires a certain amount of of gravity and and voice.
00:42:48
Speaker
And without it, I think the days of just saying, hey, you know what? I'm getting back to the air quotes that you talked about. I'm just a guide. This doesn't affect me. um Or i'm you know I'm just a small business owner. this you know I watch what happens, but this is up this is for somebody else to take care of. um That's not the case anymore. Accountability. Yeah. Yeah. yet Accountability and responsibility are intimately linked, and I think that's something that, you know, I think I have struggled with myself and, you know, I, as a, you know, I had sort of a Peter Pan life for a long time, right? Like I was a professional climber, you know, first I was a mountain guide, then I was a professional climber. I mean, you know, life was pretty easy and know in a lot of ways. I mean, not climbing, not withstanding, but, uh, that,
00:43:44
Speaker
That does almost lead to this, like, Oh yeah, other people are taking care of those other things. All I have to do is eat, sleep and train. And that, that's fun for a while. And then you reach an age where you're like, well, actually like.
00:43:55
Speaker
other people are taking care of these things that actually I rely on. And I rely on this state park to climb in, or I rely on this this economy to support me, this you know outdoor industry economy to support to support me. So that's I think that that start to ah stuff starts to dawn on you. So then you're at at VF and youre you get to help build this out off the back of the napkin. And how long does that Where does that take you?
Mentorship and Industry Responsibility
00:44:27
Speaker
I mean, that you know i tell I jokingly tell people all the time, working on that globally during the pandemic.
00:44:36
Speaker
Um, really led me to the point that it was time to write this book and that it was time to, to really talk about, um, you know, I say this somewhat flippantly, but, but also seriously, you know, when you're working on, um, fair labor laws in Bangladesh for the workers that build the sexy puffy jacket that most people in mountain cultures and communities enjoy wearing and buying. And you understand the entire ecosystem that that that product comes through. ah i no The The lifecycle, the communities that it impacts, the people that that it affects. um I really understood that some of the questions that have been rattling and around in my head for decades were global. They weren't just local.
00:45:27
Speaker
and that this responsibility that we're talking about that is often... to your point earlier, taking care of through trade associations or maybe there's a lobbying group or if I pay my dues to this NGO, then we get to go fight for this piece of legislation or this activation. um It's still a very fractured ecosystem and that to truly be the most effective that that we can possibly be, both in the United States and beyond, um we have to start speaking with one voice and figuring out how to speak with one voice. so
00:45:59
Speaker
You know, I'm incredibly proud of the work that we did together at VF, you know, their foundation is doing a lot of really good work around the world. And their government affairs shop is focusing on policies from circularity to to workers rights in far flung corners of the globe.
00:46:18
Speaker
Um, and so it was an incredible learning experience for me running global teams focused in the, in these spaces, i um, but also validated the fact that someone needs to talk about these things in a holistic way to help people understand that we are capable of so much more than we're doing right now, um, to speaking up about all these things. You know, having written a few books myself, the process for me has always been.
00:46:46
Speaker
more of what I think of as pregnancy. It's like i just had this you just have this thing in you that you have to get out. and Is that your experience as well? Yes. Well, it's so funny you say that because I just had conversations with some friends.
00:47:03
Speaker
the other day um that my wife was involved in. And I didn't hear about her comments until I walked away. I was telling friends exactly what I told you. Yeah, in the middle of working for VF, I thought about this. This was kind of you know it validated. I need to go to work on this. I found a writing partner um and a publisher that was you know willing to buy the crazy idea.
00:47:23
Speaker
and um went to work and it took about three years. And I walked away and apparently my wife said, he's been thinking about this for 15 years. This is not a three-year process. This is something that's been percolating in journals and and notes and emails and letters and all these different pieces that you sort of cobble together. And I know for you, you know when I first read uphill athlete and started focusing on using that as as a piece of my own um training cycles,
00:47:52
Speaker
you know, I saw all your personal narratives and stories, how how you shaped the science around some of that. And I knew that it needed, you know, when in the middle of my own project, I knew it needed to be the same for me that and to make sure this wasn't a nerdy policy wonky book, just talking about who we were and what we could do. I needed to also share my own personal evolution through these spaces to help people understand that you know, someone that did not have a focus in this space that never thought in a million years they would end up here, um you know, you can too if if you understand the importance of the urgency around it.
00:48:30
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's a really important message for the younger people in our industry, because when I was in my, I was talking about this recently with, uh, another guest whom we both know Conrad anchor. Yeah. And I, we were reflecting upon how, you know, he and Alex and Greg child, and at that time, Kitty Calhoun and Lynn Hill were like the first generation of Americans that were answered in any way as climbers and the you know, sort of mid and mid and late 90s. And, you know, for me at that time, you know, I'm just...
00:49:08
Speaker
I think I'm like 11 years younger than Conrad, so not a huge difference. and But there there is no blueprint. like Conrad's the first one to really move through that whole life cycle. and I mean, I wouldn't call him retired by any means, but to to sort of have like gone through the whole life cycle of an outdoor athlete and as a professional and reach the end of you know the the last stage of his career. And you know if you had told me that there was a pathway like that when I was 25, I would have just I would not have believed you. one percent and And two, I would have you know been like, how do I do that? Because that's what I want to do. I mean, worked out. I managed to like, you know, I think we managed to find these ways to do these things that we were really passionate about. But I think that that's, it's really interesting how you went through ah this this cycle. So you had all these, you you this this book,
00:50:04
Speaker
ah was in gestation through your letters and notes and then you have just now given birth to it. is it has it how When did it actually come off the presses? boy what We're talking on June 12th, 2024. May 28th, so this is still a very, very new thing. Okay. yeah and Just a few weeks. Probably like you felt as well, and I'm dying to hear your perspective on this. It's a little vulnerable, right? Because it's... Well, a lot of the stuff in there is is based on work and science and and a lot of the pieces that
00:50:38
Speaker
you know, the functionality of how do you grow the political voice for the outdoor industry is do we need a seat at the table in Washington DC? Do we need to be present in other parts around the world? What drives that narrative is personal stories. And that's that's the vulnerable part because you end up talking about things I've already heard from friends um and folks that got an advanced copy that, you know, I knew pieces of this, Luis, but I had no idea that... So that's been the nerve-racking part. I don't want to give things away, and that's why I want people to read the book for themselves. Because that is not only the vulnerable part, but it's the strong part. You know, the the science or the examples, the things you've lived and observed, those are easy. Those happen. That's more of a journalistic exercise.
00:51:28
Speaker
But the glue that holds it together is the humanity of it. And what you went through to piece all of those facts together to come to a certain thesis and conclusion. And you know I think that if I can offer you anything, and I don't know if I can, but it would just be that to lean into the vulnerability as much as you can and more than you want to, because that's what people connect to.
00:51:56
Speaker
yeah And that's going to be your true strength, actually. And I know you're i know you're strong enough to do that. I've seen you do this a million times. It's actually one of one of your, I would argue, best qualities and and greatest strengths as ah as a human. And that that's just, it's it's the glue, it's the headline, it's what people remember. People don't remember facts. People remember how they felt.
00:52:25
Speaker
you know They're not going to remember the words you say when they hear you talk about your book, but they're going to remember how they felt when they left the room after they heard you speak. you know It's funny because you mentioned the episode with Conrad because i i definitely you know that that spoke to me. and i I just saw him and I yeah i told him about there's there's this book called The Making of a Modern Elder.
00:52:49
Speaker
um and which is a bizarre word word in our arena, right? Because when you and I think of elders, you know you know, Conrad is somewhat in that space. But to your point, you know, being an elder sort of connotates, you you come with knowledge in a roadmap. And when there isn't one, and we're still of the generation or close to the generation of, you know, we're figuring this out. You know, Steve, I had this conversation with someone who had,
00:53:19
Speaker
has college age kids who want to be a part of the industry, but it's very important to to their mom and dad that they sort of understand how to find that formal education through this process. And through our work within academia, at least here in Colorado, and now I would argue all over the US, you now have um and MBAs, you now have business schools focused on the outdoor recreation industry. You have masters focus on the economy of the outdoor industry. And so for the first time,
00:53:49
Speaker
that college age kid, that university age person who wants a career in this industry can now continue their education as opposed to needing to cobble it together like you and I have had to do and like definitely Conrad has had to do and have more opportunities with informal education and otherwise to be able to put it together.
Career Development in Outdoor Industry
00:54:09
Speaker
So the awkward conversation I had with my parents that I was actually going to go to Colorado, be coming out with that instructor start focusing on my guiding courses and and doing that as opposed to the options. now Now young folks have more options and I think it's because of the work like Conrad, like yourself, like others leading the way. I mean, I literally just had a conversation with a woman
00:54:34
Speaker
a young woman at University of Colorado, Boulder, who wants to become a sports kinesiologist, referenced your book. I mentioned I was coming on the podcast and and she just about fell over, right? So there's, there are all these different levels of inspiration out there that that's the best that we can do.
00:54:52
Speaker
right I think you know you and I would both agree it's a miracle that we're even here and alive um based on the things we've been through and we've done and I think the greatest gift that we can offer is is just that. Our voice, our hope, um our intention and to truly understand that there is no finish line in this dialogue.
00:55:12
Speaker
yeah yeah Because it's our evolution, it's going to continue to evolve and our voices are just, or you know in this case, your voice is as leading this this discussion for for a time and then then it will be someone else's time.
Advice for Aspiring Authors
00:55:29
Speaker
So now that you've written a book, what would be one word of advice you'd give to someone thinking of writing a book, another aspiring author?
00:55:39
Speaker
I mean, you know for me, I don't know if you feel this way about you know the people that you've partnered with, writing partners. you know find ah Find a friend that believes what you believe and is a better writer than you are. For me, that was Frederick Reimers, 20 year friend. We worked together at Outward Bound in our 20s. He became this amazing journalist as I sort of walked the earth and went on about doing what I was doing.
00:56:02
Speaker
um But because he knew me and had such an intimate knowledge of who I was and how I had grown up, um really understood how to shape my voice. And to your point about vulnerability, I credit him with pulling a lot of that out of me. um If it wouldn't thank him for that. Oh, yeah, if it would have been just me, I never would have gone as deep, um never would have been as vulnerable without his help. And so my one piece of advice would be, you know, find the people that wholeheartedly believe what you believe and what you're trying to bring into the world, because there will be moments when you just want to ball the whole thing up and set it on fire and go do something else. um And so you you need to have those partners around you and with you um on that journey. Yeah, 100%. Couldn't agree more.
00:56:49
Speaker
And you will ball it up and set it on fire and go do something else and then come back like somewhere between 12 hours and 12 months or 12 years later. like you know and That's part of the process too.
00:57:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah. I'm sure you had existential moments where you asked yourself, I have no idea where this is going and I just got to walk away for a little while. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if I look back at, you know, I kept a box of all the outlines and drafts of my first book beyond the mountain, it's a, it's a huge box. And if I look at the, sometimes I look at the first outline of that, not because I want, I'm nostalgic because just to remind myself,
00:57:29
Speaker
of like what the starting point looked like and and how bad, frankly, it was. And then it turned into something i was I'm proud of. you know but yeah you know And so we have to get over this fear of you know not being good when we start because we're going to be bad when we start and we're going to be good when we finish. And that's just the way this works.
00:57:52
Speaker
100%. And I think it's also the magic of our community. you know Matt Sammet, who was another climber, also an editor, was my editor for the book. like it It took a village. Matt's an amazing editor. He's an amazing editor, and I was he's lucky to have. He's edited some of my work, too. we yeah He's edited some more for Uphill Asleep for the podcast, and or and sorry, for the for the website, for blog posts. and He's just ah super, super talented. Yeah. So i was I benefited from our community and our culture, um sort of hearing my concept and saying, you know what, this is a story that we need this, not just for us, but for other people to understand why this is so important. And when we were considering the subtitle for the book,
00:58:34
Speaker
um There was a lot of very practical very sort of middle-of-the-road ideas But everybody said it it should be how the outdoor recreation industry can save the world That's a really bold big Thing to say out loud and to put on a book um But to a person everybody felt that you know, if if you don't set that larger intention and goal um Then you're you're missing the opportunity Yeah, and if not us who exactly So where can people find Higher Ground and how can they connect with
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:59:08
Speaker
you? And perhaps, are you speaking at one of your book events or listening to you speaking more about these subjects? Yeah. Thank you. So highergroundbook.com. Super easy. It's got all the information, links to buy the book in whatever form that you you get it in. And we're trying to put up ah speaking opportunities and events on that website as well. so
00:59:33
Speaker
While all these pieces are are very new, the the work is not. So hopefully, you know, my my biggest ask is if you find a way to to continue this conversation in your own community, um lean in because this truly is what comes next for us. Yeah, that's a great message. Thank you, Luis. And thanks to our listeners for tuning tuning in.
00:59:56
Speaker
Don't forget to subscribe to the uphill athlete podcast for more inspiring conversations like this. Until next time, stay curious and keep reaching for higher ground.