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Madeleine Sims-Fewer & Dusty Mancinelli on Honey Bunch | What’s Kraken Interview
12 Plays14 days ago
In this episode of What’s Kraken, Jo sits down with filmmakers Madeleine Sims-Fewer and Dusty Mancinelli about their chilling new Shudder premiere, Honey Bunch—a psychological thriller exploring lost memories, experimental trauma treatments, and the dark underbelly of a marriage tested to its limits. They open up about their collaborative writing-directing process, the challenges of indie horror, and how personal dynamics shape their storytelling. No spoilers, just raw insight into crafting tense, hallucinatory cinema. Catch Honey Bunch now on Shudder!
Check out more at https://linktr.ee/Emptyhell.
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Opening riff – Jo kicks off with wild energy, setting the stage for a candid chat with the Honey Bunch creators
Insights– Madeleine and Dusty reveal how their real-life partnership influences the film's twisted relationship dynamics
Personal story – The duo shares how their writing process evolves when directing together—collaboration, clashes, and creative breakthroughs
Why it matters – From shorts to features--these two have resurrected the art of writing plots that twist as much as they matter.
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Transcript
Introduction of Guests and Movie
00:00:07
Speaker
Hey everyone, Joe here, another What's Crackin' and today's special, special guest. Two of my God, I must have been good. We've got none other than Madeline and Dusty from Honey Bunch, the brand new, new, new movie coming out on Shudder on February 13th. So I want to say, first of all, thank you very much for coming.
00:00:27
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks for having
Joe's Viewing Experience vs Super Bowl
00:00:28
Speaker
us. So I'm not going to lie, I watched this instead of the Super Bowl. I lost a ton of money. wow Yeah, I know. That's like high praise. Like, oh, I don't want to watch the Super Bowl. What want to do? Like, oh watch Honey Punch. It is brilliant. And I see you both do writing and directing in it, right?
00:00:49
Speaker
So I've got a lot of questions on this. Because you see a coherent piece from, you know, Act One all the way through and the pacing is brilliant and the acting is great and all the stuff.
Challenges in Filmmaking
00:01:00
Speaker
How is it to write a coherent piece and then also direct it?
00:01:05
Speaker
That's a good question i mean it's a good question. I think when you're writing something, especially when you know you're going to direct it, you you try to have a clear vision of the visual aesthetic and the tone. But ultimately, when you cast something and you shoot something, it's just there's going to be a wide variety unconscionable.
00:01:24
Speaker
predictable elements that will emerge. And we've learned early on in the directing process that although we can be incredibly prepared and and have all these ideas of what we want, ultimately we need to be really kind of aware and present of what's kind of changing in the moment.
00:01:39
Speaker
and to learn when that's working for the film and learn when it's not working for the film and to try to like you're kind of steering a ship in in a storm, you know, and you you know, kind of where you want to go and you have a map, but there's so much navigating that has to happen. um And that's sort of the magic of filmmaking. That's like the fun part, because all those moments um that like, for example, the opening of the film, which is stunning, you know, it's a storm. We weren't planning to do something like that. That just happened on the day and actually derailed our schedule a little bit. But we realized like, oh, this is amazing. This this insane storm with these waves with the with the rain. And we thought, OK, this is a great way to kind of open the the film. And so you're kind of leaning into those
Collaborative Process and Creative Disagreements
00:02:25
Speaker
moments.
00:02:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think um as well, it's important to be sort of two different people when you're the writer and the director to when you're writing, you're throwing yourself into what you've this vision that you have. And then when you're directing, you're interpreting that person's vision instead of otherwise you get too kind of locked into this is verbatim and this is the way it has to be. And I i think that one thing that we've both learned is that the more flexibility you can have, the better the outcome. Yeah.
00:02:56
Speaker
No, absolutely. i mean, like you said, the storm itself was a happy little accident that kind of wrecked your plans, but it turned out brilliant for the film. I know more than a few people are just like, oh, that's it.
00:03:06
Speaker
You know, walked away that day. But you guys didn't push on. Now, what I'm saying, you're doing co, co, co, co. Did you ever fight amongst each other saying, no, this is what I meant. Page five. It's got to be like this. I don't care. That's right.
00:03:21
Speaker
you're I think we do get all our fighting out in the writing stage. Big time. Well, because we're we're just heavy outliners. So we spent a lot of time like breaking out the beats before we even get to screenplay format. And that is a long process of conversation and back and forth. um So we've usually like really aligned ourselves so that we really see the movie in the same way. So sometimes it's really, it can be very frustrating when you have this idea in your head of,
00:03:48
Speaker
this is brilliant and this is
Decision-Making in Creative Teams
00:03:50
Speaker
the way it has to be. And you just don't see my brilliance. And then you're trying to explain it to the other person and they're not getting your brilliance. They're like, no, that's terrible. And what's really good about that from my perspective and why i love being in a collaboration is that sometimes the things I initially hold onto is these brilliant ideas.
00:04:07
Speaker
Dusty then gives me a perspective where I have to look at myself really critically and think, is that as brilliant as I thought it was? It's like when you wake up from a dream and you think, oh, I need to write that dream down. It's going to be the best movie ever. And then two days later, you look at it and it's the garblings of a mad woman. Yeah.
00:04:23
Speaker
So it's it's it's nice to get all of that, hash that out in the writing. And then when we're directing... It's really I think I mean, there's times when we'll feel really passionate about something sometimes um Dusty will see something like a a shot we haven't planned for a new a new idea or new line for the script and you just have to go with it and trust the other person that if they're seeing this there's value in it. Yeah, I think we've learned this is our second feature. We've made three shorts together not to be so precious about that process and just, again, trust each other's instincts. That's really the most important thing. And we we create a rule of whoever's the most passionate wins. So if someone is really, really passionate, we just we do what that person wants. And if we're both really, really passionate, we do both. We do both. We just do both. And it's like it's a great way to mitigate conflict on set. But ultimately, when our key crew come to us and ask us a question, they get the same answer most of the time.
00:05:16
Speaker
I mean, instincts or can either be the best thing that you will ever shoot, or they can just be, no, that didn't work. yeah And why would you not attempt it to get the best thing you could ever shoot? yeah So you're saying that it's okay to attempt things. It might not work, but you have to try.
00:05:36
Speaker
if it works, it's the way it's something you might come from it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think instinct is important, but you're right. Like instinct doesn't always work out, but it's, I think a great path that often leads to exciting outcomes.
00:05:51
Speaker
Very cool. When you're talking about outlining, I'm guessing you're using a small cards. This is like this beat has to go to this beat before act one, something like that. You outline the entire thing first and then read it back as a movie to each other and then make
Outlining and Scene Mapping
00:06:03
Speaker
cuts from there. or It's so detailed. Different yeah project as well. we're always trying to kind of refine and say sort of what does this particular script need with Honey Bunch? It was very intricately plotted. So it was quite detailed. I would say we we definitely do cards because cards are a great macro way of looking at your total story. So you try to like distill a whole scene, like what's the heart of the scene in like a sentence. you know So you'd write that sentence out. And then you break that out. But that's not enough. like That's helpful to see how the general story is moving for the flow of structure. And then we would take each card and we would break out like what is every character's objective in the scene? What are they trying to accomplish? And what are the key kind of emotional beats in their the character's journey from getting from point A to point B? And then what are the story beats where you might have a setup and a reveal and a payoff and and like little things like that? And sometimes you have an idea like, oh, this is a really cool image or textural element and you're trying to figure out what what scene might that belong to. So we're we're kind of like trying to
00:07:04
Speaker
ah create a kind of like structured organized way of collecting all of our thoughts and ideas prior to the writing process. But then when you go to write, you don't even really look at that i be honest. It's like tools to fall back on if you get Yeah, it's sort of like the confidence to just write the thing. So you're like, oh, I know what i know what it is. Here's my guide. If I get lost, I look at this thing here. but That's very cool. And then i was wondering if you ever do that for the shorts, because shorts are little bit more compact. You still have to tell the story.
00:07:30
Speaker
Is that how you learn to do your features then? Yeah, we did actually outline all of our shorts as well. I think both of us come from sort of a writing first yeahp um approach to background, yeah yeah, to making films. And yeah, we always, I think with our shorts, we were just slowly working out what is our process as writers for features. And it's still evolving. You know, I think with every film that we make, we're changing how we write, changing how we direct in a way to hopefully improve and find something that's truthful and honest and better for us, you know, like trying to grow.
00:08:04
Speaker
and that's exactly, you want the truth and the honesty of it, the honesty of it all. And for a Honey Bunch, it is a Gosh, I'm not, no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers. I believe you guys use gaslighting in your IMDb saying that the movie is about gaslighting little bit.
00:08:21
Speaker
But it also talks about what it truly means to be a person. yeah Like there's deep psychology about this movie that others might not see. How much preparation do you do for this for the psych backgrounds and just to getting into the actual human emotions of it?
Influence of Personal Experiences
00:08:37
Speaker
A lot of it is born out of our own like personal experiences with some of the subject matter. So for example, I have a lot of dementia and Alzheimer's in my family. So I'm like just instantly fascinated with those conditions. i've done a lot of research on that. And there's a lot of fear and anxiety you know built around, like will that one day happen to me? And how will that impact our relationship? And then when you start to think you know, from an existential philosophical perspective of what does it mean to even be a person, like your your own sense of identity? um Who are you but your memories? if if If all you remember are the bad things in your life, then does your identity, is it transformed and shaped by by those, you know, negative emotions? What does it mean to, you know, deal with trauma and and how do you like overcome it? And so I think those are like ideas that are running throughout the entire film. We definitely had a conversation about what are,
00:09:29
Speaker
Are trees conscious? I remember that having that conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. So you're saying it was because of personal interest. It looks like it was well done, well developed and stuff like that, obviously. But it comes across that you had some kind of personal investment just beyond the art.
00:09:47
Speaker
Because the question nor you had yourself. Yeah. Sure. i think I think everything we make starts off by finding something that is really interesting to us that we feel like we have a perspective on um that we care about. And often that means you know excavating your own self, like you're asking each other like you know personal questions. you know For this, it was really trying to understand like what our unique viewpoints were on love. you know We're often exposed to this sort of myth of of like the perfect person, you know true love and soulmates. And we just realized we both didn't subscribe to that idea. We had a different idea of what love was. And um a lot of the story and the ideas in the film were just born out of these kinds of conversations that we had with each other, which are meaningful to us. And hopefully then become meaningful to other people that watch the film.
Beginning of Creative Partnership
00:10:44
Speaker
So when you're working and you always seem to work together for the last couple of films, did you ever want to like do something individual like Rolling Stones, Keith and Mick just do one album each this way and come back together?
00:10:57
Speaker
I feel like we already started that way. Yeah. You know, like we, so I started and you started writing and directing your own stuff. I was doing my own stuff for like years, doing our own shorts and then we found each other. So I don't have that design. No, I don't either. It's really just, I mean, I think both of us, um neither of us push our agenda on the other person or our ideas on the other person. It's always about finding what interests both of us. And there's so many ideas that excite me that I know and that excite you that I know there'll be a crossover somewhere.
00:11:30
Speaker
And then it's about finding that crossover and kind of getting each other inspired, more inspired about. well Yeah, that's a great way of point putting it. It's like, it's it's more important to find the cross section than it is to like convince the other person why the idea is good.
00:11:45
Speaker
Right. And so you're just, you're just trying to find the commonality there where it's like, oh, that's super interesting to me because you want it to be interesting to the other person. you know I think a lot of the reason that we wanted to collaborate in the first place is because neither of us are the type of person that is sort of married to to an auteur vision as a filmmaker. I don't feel like I need to have mark the germ of the idea come from me or belong to me, or I don't feel like I need the film to belong in any way to some idea of my vision. I think one ah one thing that we really tried to do is forget whose idea is whose. So um it just becomes collectively both of us.
00:12:29
Speaker
that That's wonderful. I mean, that's really interesting to to see because I've seen people who grew up writing in the split, but you guys actually came together from different backgrounds. Where do you guys meet professionally? i'm just curious now. Yeah, it's funny. We actually met at the tronte film festival Toronto Film Festival in 2015. They had a filmmakers lab there and it was there that we instantly kind of connected. And then we went to York to do our masters in film production. And we took this class and it was an exercise to work with actors. And we decided, hey, let's make a short film together. where We'll co-direct and produce together. And it was like just the first time we really enjoyed the whole process of making a film. And we instantly joined forces, started a company, and then we kept working with each other ever since.
00:13:12
Speaker
Well, that's brilliant. I mean, that's that' one way of doing it properly. Like it's you're coming together for the art. You have something that clicks together. The universe brings you together. And here you are. Now for Honey Bunch on February 13th, Shutter, yay.
00:13:27
Speaker
I not so much want to know. Again, not no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers, no spoilers.
Casting and Character Development
00:13:35
Speaker
But did you have a vision on how to cast this? Because I believe the cast is very important on just the visual look wise and the ability to pull us off to be believable. Did you have the vision before you even started casting and and you know, I know exactly I want this person right here.
00:13:50
Speaker
We did for certain characters and then and then for others it was more open. Yeah, like we wrote Homer and Diana for Grace and Ben, two like Toronto actors and they're also ah writer directors, really talented characters.
00:14:04
Speaker
real life couple. And we pitched them the whole project over dinner. Asked them to do it. Before we had even written it. And it was amazing because once they said yes, it allowed us to really kind of sculpt the characters in a way that was interesting to them and and us. But we joke that like, I'm actually more Diana. And Madeline is more Homer. um And Jason Isaacs was really, we were just so lucky for him to connect with the script. He has a daughter himself and he really loved the character and the journey that that character goes on. When we were looking at who we were going to send out the script to for the other parts, it was really, a lot of it was about
00:14:42
Speaker
um these because we set up these ideas of kind of these gothic trope characters um and it was really looking for actors who were going to both fit into that trope and also push against it yeah so like Julian Richings like we we we wrote it for him you know and and it was fun for us to think about you know, taking, he's always playing these characters that are really quite creepy. And how can we like, actually, it appears that he's this creepy guy, but then later you realize he's a sweetheart. And there's something kind of ah lovely about that journey that he goes on. And and India Brown, who plays Josefina, she, we wrote it for her. She, we saw her in this Apple TV show Invasion and she was just really blew us away.
00:15:24
Speaker
And she was a dream to work with. Yeah. It's incredible. Kate Dickey, we've just been a fan of since forever um I saw Red Road when I was at theatre school and was just obsessed with her performance in that so that was just kind of a dream to end up working with her we didn't write it for her because it just wasn't even in our minds that she would work on it but but yeah so so lucky she came to it Well, that's amazing. And I can actually see some of this. It's like they're just born to play these roles. I'm like, my God, it's like the first perfect casting for this. Like, who does this? This is wonderful, man. So as we kind of land the plane, I ask one question, same question to each of you.
Advice to Younger Selves
00:16:04
Speaker
What advice would you give to younger you? When I say younger, I mean like teen or below. Ooh, great question. um
00:16:16
Speaker
What advice would you give younger you? Oh my God. Just so much advice. I don't know if I can, if I can distill it down to one thing. I'm, I need to, I need a moment to think about it.
00:16:31
Speaker
Here's the book of the vice. We gave it here. Yeah. There's too much advice. yeah Chapter five. You need it in your twenties. What would I think, what would I say? Maybe it's a, it's, it's advice I would give myself now that I'm still trying to figure out. Okay. I think, I think I know what I would say today. Maybe my advice change tomorrow, but I think I would say that it's okay to be you because it's taken me a long time to get to the point as, um, as a, a,
00:17:00
Speaker
writer, director, actor, to be all right with just saying things that I want to say and not trying to be Wes Anderson or be Noah Baumbach or b Jane Campion. It's just, it's like, just be you. And some people, you'll find the people who are also like you that way, instead of trying to impress the people who you're never going to impress anyway.
00:17:27
Speaker
That's true. I would say embrace the unexpected. Don't resist it. The unexpected is your friend. And I think once you realize that, ever it's just you're you're never swimming it up current, you know?
00:17:41
Speaker
That is very cool. could be And you combine both of those devices and you have Honey Bunch. Honestly, you've raised it and you're being yourself. And Honey Bunch on February 13th from Shudder. Well, I want to say thank you both for your time. behalf of myself, Joe, and Mylon and Dusty, we bid you good day.
00:17:58
Speaker
bye everyone. Thank you. Thanks, guys.