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SCP Classic – Crisis on Infinite Earths (2019)
250 Plays1 year ago
For the next two months, I’m taking a break from the show to catch up on recordings and get some work done on my comic book project. So I’m giving you a glimpse into the past with SCP Classic, featuring replays of past episodes influenced by recent releases.
The Flash movie explored the concept of the multiverse and DC announced a Crisis on Infinite Earths animated film. So for the next episode of SCP Classic, enjoy listening to us discuss the live-action Crisis on Infinite Earths adaptation that unintentionally marked the beginning of the end of the Arrowverse.
PARAGONS OF EARTH is a comic book project I’m developing with Thomas Deja and Eric Johns. Sign up for the free PARAGONS OF EARTH Substack to learn when the crowdfund campaign is live!
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Transcript
Personal Reflection and Tribute
00:00:24
Speaker
I lost the love of my life. My two daughters. Nothing will ever be okay again. I know. That flash, the flash from Earth-90. He looked just like my dad. Henry Allen. He was a resilient man.
00:00:50
Speaker
He spent years in prison for the murder of my mom, a crime one of my enemies committed and framed for. Through all that, he never lost his life. Times like this.
00:01:19
Speaker
Spent his life giving a voice to the voiceless. He was murdered when I was 12. I still carry the lessons. He taught me until this day and passed them along.
00:01:59
Speaker
any quitters, so we should honor their memory and rage against the dying of the light. Tell him, Thomas. Well, all right. Then flash.
Podcast Introduction and Captain America Discussion
00:02:17
Speaker
It's Barry. Barry Allen. Chef for some tears.
00:02:31
Speaker
Welcome to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. I am half of your co-host, Perry Constantine. And I am the other half, Derek Ferguson, coming to you from the center of the universe, Brooklyn, New York. We had our Brooklyn episode last time. You're still trying to horn in on it, huh?
00:02:49
Speaker
Absolutely. Of course. I'm always going to be a Brooklyn prop. But speaking of that, you know, because we talked about Captain America last week or, you know, two weeks ago in the last episode. And now you just posted something in the in the group about something related to that in Brooklyn. Yeah, the Captain America statue. OK, so I saw this friend of our Sean Ali posted on Facebook. So what is this? It's out of Bed Bath and Beyond.
00:03:18
Speaker
Yeah, this statue was made. Actually, this statue has been around for a while because it was right down the street from me at the Barclays Center Stadium in the summer of 2016.
00:03:36
Speaker
And before that, it was in Prospect Park. It's been moving around Brooklyn to various locations ever since, I mean, for a while. And I had no idea that it was in this, it's like this whole complex called Industry City. That's not too far from me. It's about like, about like a 20 minute drive. Not even for about like 10 minutes.
00:04:04
Speaker
But I did not know that the statue was there, you know, the Captain America statue. I had seen it before, back in 2016, when it was at Barclays. And like you said, Sean E. Ali, he posted on there and said, oh, well, it's at Bath and Beyond. And the weird thing is that Sean lives in California.
00:04:26
Speaker
And he knew about it, and I didn't know about it in Brooklyn. So of course, I had to go see the Captain America statue again. And I took a whole bunch of pictures. And for all of you that are listening to this, if you go to our Facebook group, Superhero Center Files, you will see the pictures that I have up there of the Captain America statue. Yeah, and the inscription on the statue, I'm reading it now, the quote from First Avenger, which we used as the title of our last episode. I'm just a kid from Brooklyn.
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah. And hometown pride established 1941. And they also got a, you know, a nod to Jack Kirby and Joe Simon. They're saying that he created by by them. Yeah, there's a plaque that's on the side, which again, I took a measure. I took a picture of that, folks. And if you go to our Facebook group, you will see that picture on there that Captain America created by Stanley and Jack Kirby. And yeah, on the front, it's got that it's got that iconic quote.
00:05:24
Speaker
The funny thing is is that originally when Captain America was created, he came from Manhattan. He didn't come from Brooklyn. That's like a, you know, like a reboot slash revisionist type of thing, which, hey, I have no problem from. I have no problem with Captain America. Trust me, I have no problem with any superhero coming. Do you know if it was the movie that did that or if it was done in the comics before that? You mean the thing when he was coming from Brooklyn? Yeah.
00:05:53
Speaker
As far as I know, that was the movie. OK. Yeah. Yeah. So the Captain America that I as far as I know and every other thing he even matter, he came from Hell's Kitchen. Oh, OK. He grew up. He did the comic books. Yeah. He came from Hell's Kitchen just like Daredevil. Oh, OK. You know, they grew up in the same neighborhood as far as I know. Yeah. That's interesting. I wonder why they decided to change it.
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, so that was something that, as far as I know, like I said, and I always invite you guys to listen to this. Please, if I'm wrong, correct me. But as far as I know, that's something that they did. Yeah, just for the movie. OK. OK, good. So how are you doing otherwise today?
00:06:34
Speaker
Otherwise, I'm doing fun. I was in Manhattan earlier, which was always a nightmare for me. And I'm getting ready because I'm going to let you and the good folks listening to this in on something I don't usually tout.
00:06:55
Speaker
But next week is going to be my birthday next weekend. Yeah, Saturday is my birthday. And I'm going to go see the Birds of Prey movie. Oh, OK.
00:07:08
Speaker
Yeah, it opens here in New York on Friday the 7th. My birthday is the 8th. OK. So I'm thinking about calling Tom DJ. If he's listening to this, he's probably because I've been calling the last couple of days and I haven't been able to get touch with me. And we've been playing like kind of phone tag.
00:07:27
Speaker
Yeah, where he calls me, but you know, and I hear the message on my answer machine. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I'm I'm planning on going and seeing that Friday. OK, are you looking forward to it? You know what? In a way I am, because I'm one of the few people that like Suicide Squad. OK, I mean, I like I liked her and Suicide Squad, Margot Roby.
00:07:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, well, I like her in anything. Yeah, she's great. Yeah. Even in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, which she had like nothing really to do, but she was still good in what she did. Yeah, yeah, I mean, okay. There was a whole big thing made about her playing Sharon Tate in that movie. And like you said, even though I love the movie, she really didn't have that much to do. No.
00:08:18
Speaker
And she was also in, what was it, Legend of Tarzan, which she was really good in that. And what was that movie she made with Leonardo? The Wolf of Wall Street. Oh, okay, I haven't seen that yet, actually. The runtime kept me away from it. That was the movie that kind of put her on the map. Okay. Yeah, The Wolf of Wall Street, yeah. Yeah, see, it doesn't come out here until March 20th.
00:08:49
Speaker
So, and I don't know, it looks entertaining and it's gotten good reviews, but I just, I'm still puzzled as to why they're forcing Harley Quinn and Birds of Prey together. Yeah, yeah, that kind of puzzles me too. Because I said, well, why not just,
00:09:13
Speaker
do a Harley Quinn movie yeah if you you know if you really want to do Harley Quinn yeah why not just do Harley Quinn and just get it over with you know uh at one point like when this was first being talked about they were actually going to call it Gotham City sirens which i think would have been much better yeah would have been a much better because this is not because even though they call it birds of prey from the um
00:09:37
Speaker
Just from the few pictures that I've seen and from the trailers I've seen, this incarnation of Huntress and Black Canary or whatever is apparently like nothing we've never seen before. Yeah, same thing with Cassandra Cain, one time bad girl. Yeah, Cassandra. So yeah, I don't know. But it's getting a bunch of good reviews. Well, I'm going to go see it.
00:10:08
Speaker
next Friday and I will be sure to let you guys know how it was. I will probably write a review of it and I will probably talk about it here. So we will see. Okay, cool. There was something I wanted to mention too, something I had seen recently, but for the life and I was actually thinking about it like all week. I'm like, Oh, I got to remember to talk about that on the show. And I just completely forgot now. But anyway, today we're talking about, um, so
DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Multiverse Discussion
00:10:37
Speaker
Last year, Marvel had their big crossover event movie in Endgame, Avengers Endgame. And then at the end of the year, DC said, well, we're going to do something similar. And they did Crisis on Infinite Earths with their TV properties. And that's going to be what we're talking about today. Yep. Well, first, what was your, I mean, did you read Crisis when it was coming out?
00:11:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I read crisis.
00:11:12
Speaker
on a month to month basis, because I read the individual comics as they came out. And it was a revelation because, of course, I had grown up with this, you know, thing with, I mean, you know, that, you know, I had no problem with the whole thing with the DC and their multiverse. And it was something that I grew up with. Right. You know, basically. So the concept of the multiverse
00:11:39
Speaker
was something, even though actually, to be honest, I did not, um, become acquainted with the concept of a multiverse through DC Comics. I became acquainted with it through Michael Moorcock. Okay. And his, um, because, you know, Michael Moorcock had this concept of the eternal champion that it was
00:12:05
Speaker
one character that was doomed and faded all throughout the multiverse to become different heroes and to fight to preserve the balance between order and chaos. And everybody is a queen, of course, with Elric of Melvimo.
00:12:21
Speaker
but then there were other characters like Dorian Hawkmoon and Ulrich and John Dakar and it was a whole, basically all the Michael Moorcox heroes are the same guy. Okay. It's the eternal champion and on different earths, they fight to preserve the balance between order and chaos. So I was familiar with the concept of a multiple, which actually,
00:12:46
Speaker
When I started writing my own characters and everything like that, it only made sense for me to put them all in the same universe. Right. Because I was familiar with the concept of, well, why have, you know, different universes for, you know, just making them all on the same earth.
00:13:08
Speaker
The whole concept of DC with all these different Earths, with all these different characters and different iterations of Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman or whatever, it wasn't foreign to me. And to wrap up this whole big ball wax, when they finally said, you know what, we're going to blow up the whole thing and just demolish the multiverse and just make it one Earth and call it crisis on infinite Earth.
00:13:37
Speaker
it was a revelation, like most things are when they first happened. Of course, now DC has diluted the concept because every time you turn around, it's another crisis. But back then, I mean, there were lines around the block
00:13:55
Speaker
at my local comic book store to get the latest issue every month of crisis on it. And I'm talking about the original one, folks, the original crisis on Infinite Earths with Marv Wolfman and George Perez, where he drew a line around the block to get to do it. And matter of fact, people who hadn't read comic books in years, they went back and they read a crisis on Infinite Earths.
00:14:18
Speaker
And, you know, that that book, I mean, you know, the writing is one thing. It's you know, it's a great story, but you want to see how skilled of an artist, what a workman like George Perez is. He drew every single character DC had ever published in that thing. And I mean, there was there and there were some pages like there were it's hard to find a page in that in that book where you don't have a panel with like at least a dozen characters in it.
00:14:49
Speaker
And here's the genius about George Perez. He will draw two characters standing side by side. And I've noticed this. Let's say he draws Captain America and Hawkeye standing side by side, right? Hawkeye's a little bit taller. And if you notice, George Perez will always draw him with his torso and arms actually more muscular than Captain America's. Because he's got to pull that ball.
00:15:18
Speaker
Captain America is built more like an athlete. He has a he's muscular, but he's like more athletic. Right. Looking than Hawkeye, whose whose arms is like. And you say, OK. And that's what George. He would draw a dozen different characters standing side by side. And they all had different body types according to this superpower. Yeah. Not just not just differentiating them by costume, but by facial appearance, by body type. Right. The guy's a master.
00:15:45
Speaker
Oh, I mean, I mean, just seeing the panorama of characters that he drew in Christ is on Infinite Earth. You know, folks, I can't imagine anybody who's listening to this who hasn't read it. But if you have it, then what you need to do is invest some money and go on Amazon and go ahead and get it. And don't get it for the electronic. You know, get the full size book.
00:16:14
Speaker
Just so you can save with the artwork. Yeah, I mean, I do have the electronic version, but but I did. So well, before I got it in my my crisis story, what was it like for you, you know, growing up with the multiverse and then having it taken away? Like, what were your feelings about that? OK, I thought it was a revelation, but I understood why they did it because it just got too big and too complex and too out of hand.
00:16:43
Speaker
much like on the TV series that we're going to talk about, you know, but it just got too complicated and they felt, OK, well, you know what? We just have to streamline it and just cut away all the stuff that doesn't work. It just make it a lot more simpler for people, which they did.
00:17:08
Speaker
You know, until, like I said, then they went back because now nobody understands DC continuity. They don't. Well, I mean, it was confusing for me even before that because even before infinite crisis and all that stuff, they were they were still playing around with it because there was.
00:17:27
Speaker
because okay so john burn wanted to reboot superman and wonder woman and he wanted to do new origin stories for them and all that um but then you also had uh you know batman writers green lantern flash you know teen titans all those guys they wanted to keep with the continuity so there was lots it's it was a total mess because
00:17:52
Speaker
Batman's continuity is all still in place. Green Lantern, the Flash, the Teen Titans, all their continuity is still in place. And then here comes Superman, and he's starting off from Ground Zero, and somehow this all has to kind of fit together. And it's caused so many ripples and so much confusion that it's hard to determine what is and is not in continuity anymore. Yeah, because you know why?
00:18:21
Speaker
Nobody wants to work together to build a continent. Everybody wants to do their own thing. See, back in the old days when it was the 60s, say, yeah, I know people would say, oh, hey, from the dark, what is back in the good old days thing. But there is something to say for people that all work together and say, OK, well, we're working in one continuity.
00:18:46
Speaker
But nobody wants to nobody wants to do that anymore. Everybody wants to excuse me. Everybody wants to. OK, well, I want to do my version of Superman or I want to do. That's why you get everybody rebooting everything. And every and every comic book series starts with a number one every couple of years because nobody wants to build on
00:19:12
Speaker
what went before they want to do their their own version. Another reason to just the the number ones to that's usually that usually just comes down to the marketing department because number one issue sell more than anything else. So that's why they roll out a new number one every sometimes even in the same year they've done it.
00:19:35
Speaker
But yeah, it became a real, it became really confusing and because I didn't really start reading comics until the like start reading them regularly and start collecting until the late 90s. And that was around the time when DC was starting to
00:19:50
Speaker
Incorporate a lot more stuff from the pre-crisis universe like Superman became stronger He started having a lot lot his power level was more like pre-crisis starting to creep more into the levels it was in pre-crisis and then you had a lot of writers who
00:20:07
Speaker
were coming into DC who grew up with the multiverse like you and and they missed it and they wanted to bring it back so you had guys like Mark Waid, Jeff Johns, Grant Morrison so they eventually get together and they decide we're gonna bring back the multiverse but then a few years later they decided nope we're gonna reboot everything again with the new 52 and then it
00:20:33
Speaker
But still, you had that same confusion, because you had guys like Grant Morrison was rebooting Superman, and Jeff Johns was rebooting Aquaman. But at the same time, you get Scott Snyder, and he's basically like, oh no, all the Batman history is still there. He's like, I'm writing Batman as if all that history is in place. I'm not rebooting him from nothing.
00:20:56
Speaker
So it's even still, they got rid of the multiverse, they brought it back, they got rid of it, they brought it back. And DC continuity has just been a mess ever since the Silver Age, I think, because that's when they decided to introduce the multiverse concept. And I believe, I could be wrong, but what I think happened is, you know,
00:21:23
Speaker
Because back in the day, nobody really cared about continuity. Yeah, you'd have characters cross over in that, but continuity was not really a big sticking point. And then Stan Lee came along, and Jack Kirby, and they put all their characters in the same world, and they had, you know, Spider-Man trying to audition and be part of the Fantastic Four. You had Captain America being brought out of Vice by the Avengers.
00:21:49
Speaker
Namewar being found as a homeless amnesiac by the human torch and so on and so forth. The vision being built from the human torch's remains and all this stuff. And then DC said, well, you know what, we should probably do some, have some of this continuity stuff too.
00:22:08
Speaker
But they had problems because Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, they were part of the Justice Society in World War II and the Golden Age Flash and Green Lantern. But now you had the new Flash and Green Lantern around and they were on the Justice League with them. So the question was, how can they make this work? So then they said, well, they each live on different Earths. And then that's basically how the multiverse was born. Because DC wasn't really intended to be
00:22:35
Speaker
shared continuity in those days, and they just kind of tried to fit it all together somehow. And that legacy has pretty much remained, and that's why DC continuity has always been a lot harder to try and figure out than Marvel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, because as you so accurately pointed out, it was something that I think that DC just fell into backwards.
00:23:04
Speaker
They said, OK, then when they had to think, well, of course, we had the classic story where everybody agrees that it all started with the flash of two earths. Right. You know, whereas it is something that they that that I think that starts out the way that a lot of things do. They say, hey, wouldn't this be a cool idea if we just say there was a different earth? Right.
00:23:28
Speaker
And then it just kept spiraling on from there. Well, it's because it's like everybody back in those days, you know, it was just like the old pulp books. Nobody expected these things to withstand the test of time. They were disposable entertainment. You buy a comic book for like a nickel, you read it and then you give it to your friend or you toss it out. Well, yeah, yeah. And and.
00:23:52
Speaker
That's what I always throw out to people when they, you know, when they talk about, oh, how cheesy something is, oh, man, that, oh, yeah, so cheesy and so corny. I said, yeah, well, they didn't expect that you would still be reading it 50 years from now. Yeah, yeah. You know, they thought you'd read it and, okay, people for a month or two would read it and then they would throw it out. Nobody expected people to still be reading a Spider-Man comic from 1966 now and trying to fit,
00:24:23
Speaker
that comic into the continuity of today. Yeah, and it wasn't until like the not even even Stan Lee wasn't
00:24:31
Speaker
like in terms of series continuity. Like he had continuity, yeah, but it was more like sitcom continuity, where each episode is the same characters and there are some elements that carry over, but for the most part, you jump in in any episode of Seinfeld or The Simpsons. You can watch it, no problem. You don't need to know the past several years of episodes.
00:24:54
Speaker
Right. Well, you know what? Stanley took a lot of what he did, especially with Spider-Man. He took that from soap operas. Right. Yeah. But then when you had a new guard of writers come in, like in the 70s, like, you know, Claremont and all them, then they started doing the long subplot spanning issues and continuity started to become much more important at that point. Right. Yeah, because that's what they knew. That's what they grew up with. When Stanley was writing Spider-Man,
00:25:26
Speaker
One of the major things at that time was soap operas, which I, you know, which I tell people, I said, Spider-Man is just a soap opera, especially when he was writing it like during the sixties and he was going through the thing with his girlfriends and with Aunt May and his job and everything like that. I said, all that is soap opera stuff. Yeah. The X-Men is basically passions, you know, that supernatural soap opera.
00:25:55
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, but, and it's funny when you look at it, when you say, um, like, you know, uh, with these, cause even Chris Claremont, he did a lot of soap opera stuff because when he started writing, yeah, when he started writing the X-Men soap operas are still kind of popular at that soap operas really haven't didn't fall out of favor until like around the turn of the century.
00:26:22
Speaker
And in fact, you know, all due respect to Stan Lee, but I would probably credit Claremont more with that shift in the industry to doing more of the soap opera, the long-spanning storylines. Because Stan's stuffs tended to be, even with the soap opera elements, most of his stories tended to be self-contained. Yeah.
00:26:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's true, because I mean, Claremont kept stuff going on for years and years. Well, he had a trick, right? I remember seeing him in an interview. There was a movie, a documentary about him called Chris Claremont's X-Men. And in this interview, he's talking about, he's with his former editors, Anne Nocenti and
00:27:12
Speaker
Louis Simonson and they're talking about how Claremont's whole stick was He would always introduce these little subplots, right? He'd introduce something and then he'd keep a note of it and then he'd go on to the rest of the story and the reason he'd do that is because When he hit writer's block all he had to do was had to go pull out one of those subplots He introduced like 50 issues ago Well, yeah, yeah
Continuity Challenges in Storytelling
00:27:38
Speaker
Yeah, and you know what? That's a good trick that works. And all of you writers that are listening to this, if you got a series that you're playing in, you know, that's a good trick that you could take and that you can use, you know, Hey, it worked. However, but then it,
00:27:53
Speaker
See, okay, but that's okay. Okay. That can also backfire on you because I remember reading an X-Men and I would read in the letters page back when they still had letters page. Oh, they still there. People would remind Claremont of that shit. They would say, well, 20 years ago, you know, you had this in there. How come you haven't resolved it yet? Oh my God. There's still stuff that hasn't been resolved.
00:28:20
Speaker
which is why a lot of X-Men writers, they picked up on it after he left. And they said, okay. And then what would happen is that Claremont would come back and then he would rewrite and retcon all that stuff. Well, that's not really what happened. This is what really, you know, and again, like I said,
00:28:39
Speaker
You get writers that come in and we know the egos are writers. Yeah, they come in and then they're not happy with what somebody else does. And then they said, oh, no, no, no, I want to do my version of it, which is like I said, this is why we get all these different versions and itinerations.
00:28:57
Speaker
of Batman and Superman, because everybody insists when they come on, well, I want to do my version. I don't want to have to be bothered with what came on before. Even when we were writing fanfic, remember that there was some fanfiction sites that you couldn't write for them unless you agreed that you was going to pick up on the plot lines that the previous writer had done? Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:21
Speaker
And there were some people who would refuse to. They just would not do it. They'd erase everything that came before. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. In some cases, they wouldn't even read what came before. They'd just say, no, I'm just doing my own thing.
00:29:38
Speaker
There was some. Yeah, there was some that they even refused to read. And no, I don't care. I just want to do my own thing, which is why you had that thing that you had. What? I remember vividly at one time there was like a dozen different X-Men fiction sites. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely.
00:29:57
Speaker
Because everybody wanted to do their version of the X-Men, and they didn't want to be bothered with what the other guy had did. The thing that never understood, I never understood about that was, because we were operating in a small niche, right? The whole tenet of it was its shared continuity. We're all playing in the same sandbox.
00:30:15
Speaker
So I never understood why if you just wanted to write your own x-men story you didn't want to worry about what other writers are doing You know, why are you even bothering with this tiny little site? Anyway, go over to fanfiction.net go to Wattpad post it there well for me a lot of times the challenge that I Enjoyed was actually coming on after somebody else. I
00:30:38
Speaker
and seeing how I could make what they did work with what I wanted to do. Oh, you know, one of the reasons that my knowledge of Marvel and why I ended up being so well read in Marvel over the years was because I would see these empty titles and I'd want to go pick them up and look into what the past is. So I'd go back and I'd track down those issues, read them and familiarize with myself with them and then try my hand at writing the series.
00:31:09
Speaker
Yeah, but see, you were an exception. I mean, there was there was some people that were doozy. And I and I will never forget that there was some people that were writing fan fiction. And I would ask them and I would say, well, how come you didn't write? And they would say, well, I don't read what anybody else does. Yeah. Which to me was a supremely arrogant attitude. You know, as far as I'm concerned, because
00:31:41
Speaker
Well, I don't know. I don't know. I guess it's because I just enjoy reading. And I enjoyed reading what other people were doing. Yeah. And I didn't see anybody else as being a threat to me or a challenge to me. I honestly enjoyed reading a lot of other people's fanfiction stuff like you and Barry Rees and Russ Anderson and a bunch of other people. I just read y'all guys just because I enjoyed reading it. Yeah.
00:32:11
Speaker
But I knew that there were some other people. I'm not going to mention the names on the air. But there were some people that I talked to and they said, no, they didn't read anybody else. Well, why? Well, I don't know. And they would say to me, well, why should I? Really? Yeah.
00:32:27
Speaker
Oh, okay. Well, I know to leave you alone then. Because, yeah, because me and you are not on the same, me and you are not on the same level. Exactly. Yeah. You know, seriously, we are not on the same level. If you had that type of attitude, so.
00:32:43
Speaker
So now talking about this series, like the the DC CW or, you know, DC TV or I don't even I don't like calling it the Arrowverse because it's grown grown so big beyond Arrow now, even though it started with Arrow and
Arrowverse and Superhero Media Integration
00:33:02
Speaker
I remember when the first season of The Flash, right, that the end of the season finale when they had that reference to Jake Eric and they had the Golden Ages Flash's helmet show up.
00:33:17
Speaker
And I remember all of us were like, no way, they're actually gonna do it. And it was, we all thought it was insane. We thought that was something that they would never do. We thought people wouldn't buy into the concept of the multiverse, the TV viewers. Well, you know, okay. You know why I think we should call it the Arrowverse? Okay. Because...
00:33:44
Speaker
If anybody had ever told you previous to, you know, the whole CW thing going on, if anybody ever told you previous to that, that Oliver Queen, the green arrow would be the linchpin of the CW superhero universe in much in the same way that Tony Stark Iron Man was the linchpin of the MCU.
00:34:13
Speaker
You know, would you have believed it? No, absolutely not. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, yeah. So that's why I don't mind calling it the arrow verse because yes. And, and I had a little problem with it in the beginning because to me is like,
00:34:30
Speaker
Okay, when Arrow first started, they strip-mined a lot of Batman stuff. Oh, yeah. Because to me, it was like, okay, well, I see what they're doing. They're trying to do another Batman show without it being Batman. Right. And, you know, Green Lantern, I mean, Green Arrow had some popularity. He was known to TV viewers after being on Smallville for, like, you know, five years or whatever it was. Which, again,
00:34:57
Speaker
He was, he was just a standing for Batman. Right. Exactly. He was standing for Batman, but over time they did turn the green arrow into his own character. And he wasn't just a Batman clone. Right. I mean, he's still, he's still not the, the Ali I love from the comics, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, okay. Well,
00:35:23
Speaker
He's still a lot of Batman DNA in the Arrowverse version of Oliver Queen. But I do appreciate the fact that they did do a lot with the character.
00:35:40
Speaker
that I would never have expected. And I really respect the fact that they made him the linchpin. Like I said, if anybody told me that Tony Stark Iron Man would be the linchpin of the MCU, I said, really? I would have expected somebody like Captain America. Right. You know, that's the guy, you know, you wouldn't have expected Tony Stark, you know, but yeah, but thanks to not only the way he was written, but the acting talent of Robert Downey, Jr. of all people. Yeah.
00:36:10
Speaker
You know, I mean, I honestly don't think it's going to be at least 20 years before we can have anybody else play Tony Stark Iron Man. Oh, yeah. Because we have we have to have this generation die off. Yeah.
00:36:26
Speaker
before they will accept it, before they will accept anybody else as Tony Stark Iron Man. Seriously, this generation is going to die off. It's also so weird when you think about how Arrow started off and how it got to this point. Because in the first season, Arrow was almost ashamed of being a superhero show.
00:36:50
Speaker
It wouldn't give him a name. He wouldn't wear a mask. He was just the vigilante. He was the hood. He was the hood for like the first, what, three, four years? Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't until the second season, which I think not coincidentally was after Avengers came out, that then they decided, well, let's put in some more superhero stuff.
00:37:15
Speaker
And so then they brought in Black Canary. They brought in some more of the costume villains and that kind of thing. And they brought in Arsenal. And then the third season, when the Flash premiere, then it was just like, all bets are off. And they just kept on adding more and making it more and more embracing the idea of being a superhero show.
00:37:37
Speaker
But here's the thing also that I liked about the CW shows in that going back to what we were talking about, the soap opera elements, they incorporated soap opera elements.
00:37:49
Speaker
and the teen drama elements into their superhero shows and it works. It does. It does. Yeah. It worked. And you know, people actually say, Oh, okay. I mean, you know, because you know, I'm always amazed when I see fans online talk bitching about that stuff. And I'm just like, well, the comics had that stuff too, back in the day. Oh, listen,
00:38:14
Speaker
I grew up watching soap operas like All My Children and Ingenite and General Hospital and stuff like that. If you had put 50% of those characters in costumes, comic book fans would have ate it up. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah, and giving them superpowers because basically that's what the CW is soap opera with superpowers. Yeah.
00:38:40
Speaker
And really, that's all it is. And you'll have, oh, no, it's not. It's more than that. No, it's not, really. It's soap operas with superpowers. Exactly. It's people navigating their personal relationships with their families and loved ones while trying to save the world from the latest supervillain of the week. That's all you throw into the mix. Exactly. Yeah. That's it.
00:39:07
Speaker
Now, you gotta give them a hat tip for just how much they were able to accomplish with this crossover. Because they've, you know, it's been an annual thing. Every year they do a crossover episode. And it started out small, right? You had the Flash and Green Arrow crossover. And then they brought in the Legends in the year after that. And then when Supergirl came into the mix, they had the Alien invasion. And then last year they made it even a larger thing with the Elseworlds. And then,
00:39:35
Speaker
I remember last year when they had a teaser, you know, next year, Crisis on Infinite Earths. And they've been teasing it ever since the first season of The Flash because there was that newspaper article, you know, The Flash Missing Vanishes in Crisis. The very first episode of The Flash, they had them find that newspaper. So they've been leading up to the crisis ever since then. And I just want to say this and get this out of the way before I forget.
00:40:03
Speaker
because I've been reading a lot of stuff and Facebook and elsewhere. I don't even know why I bother with these idiots because they say, well, the crisis is not as good as Avengers Endgame because they didn't spend as much money on it and the special effects one is good. If that is
00:40:25
Speaker
If that is what you think, and I'm not talking to you Perry, I'm talking to those other people out there. If that's what you think, that the Christ on Infinite Earth isn't as good as Avengers Endgame because they didn't spend as much money on it. You're an idiot. Yeah. Plain and simple. Yeah. This is Derek Ferguson calling you an idiot because
00:40:45
Speaker
because yes we started the year with Avengers Endgame and to me it's kind of fitting that we ended the year with Crysis on Infinite Earth because it's just as good it is well I mean I I'm gonna say that I think Endgame is better but not
00:41:01
Speaker
because of the money, but just because of the story and just like how much has gone into it, how emotional it was. Now that's, that's not saying crisis is bad. Crisis is, is really good. It's awesome. But I mean, no end game was more emotional. Yeah, you're right. End game was more emotional, but crisis spent what, like eight years that we've been watching all these various things. Yeah. So they took the same time over eight years to build up to this, that, uh, Disney Marvel,
00:41:31
Speaker
took 10 years and 22 movies. So they did the same thing and I think that they should be respected. I think so too, definitely. And talking about the budget and the special effects and all that,
00:41:47
Speaker
You know, the CW, they didn't spend as much as a movie studio. I mean, they can't. Let's be honest here. They can't spend as much. So, I mean, you work with what you have, but that doesn't mean it looks cheap or anything like that. I mean, they're... Look, if you told me...
00:42:06
Speaker
20 years ago that we'd have a superhero universe on live-action TV, I would have said it can't be done. Because, you know, we had superhero TV shows in the 90s, we had them in the 70s and the 80s, and they all, there was all, even if the stories were good, there was always this kind of like, cheap factor to them. Like, Lois and Clark, right?
00:42:28
Speaker
There was a cheapness to it. There was a cheesiness to it. Like he didn't even wear a real belt. The belt was made of cloth, right? So there was always this kind of like cheesy elements to it that just, and, but they do a pretty damn good job with what they have. They stretch their budgets really well. Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and you know what? They, like you said, they spent what, like eight years building this up and
00:42:57
Speaker
They didn't have the budget of say, Justice League, but this thing blows Justice League out of the water. And something else that they did that people don't appreciate, but I do. They didn't do what, you know, like, okay, other people do when they make like a new version of a superhero show or a new character or whatever.
00:43:22
Speaker
that we're supposed to pretend like, okay, well, the version that came before that's invalid or doesn't exist. Crisis validated every single superhero show and movie that they've done. Everything. Everything. They had Burt Ward, for God's sake, to establish that, yeah, okay, the Batman TV show, 1966, that existed. The version played TV show that week.
00:43:49
Speaker
Yeah, the the team Birds of Prey TV show which lasted like nine episodes before it got canceled because it was so terrible Yeah, that existed And you know what if Dean Kane hadn't gone nuts. I know they probably would have had a Lois and Clark scene in there, too Yeah, but Dean K. Well, we never told about him It's sad what happened to that Superman. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen him on Fox It's sad what happened to him
00:44:18
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, they had brought in Kevin Conroy, playing Batman in live action for the first time. Kevin Conroy, for God's sake. Playing, you know, playing the Dark Knight from Kingdom Come. Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, it's so interesting, because they weave so many things together in this. Oh, and you know, speaking of Justice League, there was that surprise cameo nobody was expecting, right? They brought in Ezra Miller as the Flash. Oh my God, yeah.
00:44:47
Speaker
So in other words, they validated the Justice League movie. They said, OK, to me, that was remarkable what they did because they said to all of the fans, no matter what you love, it exists. We'll let you know it exists. There's only two things that, well, they didn't have the Linda Carter Wonder Woman. Yeah, that was an obvious omission.
00:45:17
Speaker
which makes me think, and I, and I have no way of knowing folks. I have no insight information, but I'm just wondering if there's some bad blood between Linda Carter and you know, Warner Brothers, because every time she has opportunity to appear as Wonder Woman, she, she was supposed to be in the first movie, but she didn't do it because of quote unquote scheduling. Okay.
00:45:44
Speaker
And every time that they give her opportunity to appear as Wonder Woman, you know, she always said she can't do it because of scheduling. Well, you know, because she appeared in Supergirl, I think it was season two. She was the president. So I wonder if maybe it's not something with Warner Brothers or if it's just something about playing Wonder Woman again.
00:46:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. This is because you know what, because they even use archival footage from old, you know, uh, shows that they had, like they use our footage from the, uh, from the original flash TV series. Yeah. I'm saying, well, I'm saying, well, how come they couldn't use archival footage from, you know, the wonder woman, you know what? The nice thing about that, that use of the flash footage is it kind of closes this circle when, um, yeah, back
00:46:39
Speaker
and way back in the well also not only with the 90s TV show but also with the the new TV show because if you remember in in season one right when because the I can't remember who who she I don't know who she I don't I it's been I've only seen like two episodes of the 90s show and it was and I was like in elementary school when I did so I don't really remember but
00:47:04
Speaker
the actress, who was his love interest in the TV show. She appeared in the first season of The Flash as a scientist, like Dr. McGee, I think was her name or something like that. Yeah, I don't know her name, but I know who you're talking about. Yeah. And then at the end of the season, when Henry gets out of prison, you know, played by
00:47:25
Speaker
John Wesley ship. John Wesley ship, yeah. There's this scene where him and Dr. McGee are sitting there talking and they're kind of flirting with each other. And Barry and Joe are kind of commenting how, like, whoa, it looks like your dad's having met a new friend, right? And then nothing ever comes of that. But then in this, it kind of circles back because you've got that scene from the archival footage with those two actors again. Yeah.
00:47:55
Speaker
Yeah, and okay, you had the coolness factor, of course, of John Wesley's ship. He's playing and they have that scene where he's on the treadmill and he's obviously playing The Flash from that earlier TV series. Yeah. And then we have to talk about, we have to do it because I want to get all my gushing out. All right, Brandon Ralf playing Superman again.
Superman and Lois TV Show Excitement
00:48:26
Speaker
Oh, my God. Like, ever since we saw that first image, I mean, right now, you can't see it, but I'm standing up. I don't know where to begin. I mean, it was just everything about that sequence was so perfect. You know, being a comic book fan and I've said this before, I'm going to say it again.
00:48:54
Speaker
which is why I don't go with a lot of people bitching and moaning and whining and complaining about superhero movies and TV shows now, because for me, this is what I've wanted to see ever since I was 12 years old, to see Brandon and Ralph get to put the suit back on again. And like you said, he did not hit a wrong note anywhere.
00:49:20
Speaker
I didn't know what to expect going in because, you know, they had said he's playing Kingdom Come Superman. And they showed him in the costume, right? He's got the gray in his hair. But he's not really just Kingdom Come Superman. No, he's not. I mean, they referenced so many different things in there, right? He talks about how...
00:49:42
Speaker
Tyler Hoechlin's Superman, they've got him and his Lois, they've got a kid, you know, John, Jonathan. And when Brandon Ralph looks at him for the first time, Brandon Ralph's Superman, he says, oh, he looks, he reminds me a lot of my son, Jason, who was the name of his son from Superman Returns. Yeah.
00:50:02
Speaker
And then they also like when after the fight between him and Tyler Hoechlin at the Daily Planet, you know, he says, you know, believe it or not, it's not the first time I've gone crazy and fought myself. Right. That that was Superman three, which is funny because Superman Returns was supposed to wreck on Superman three. Well, ever going well, we talked about this.
00:50:24
Speaker
in another episode where we had the thing where when Supergirl, when she meets Ray Palmer for the first time, she says, you look a lot like my cousin. Well, yeah, it was Ray Palmer who said that about her. He's like, wow, she reminds me a lot of my cousin. Yeah, right. You know, so yeah. So when we finally see him as Supergirl,
00:50:44
Speaker
You're absolutely right. There's a lot of things that he references, you know, all different ages of Superman and what that, but I mean, I mean, remember the, um, how, how everybody, all his friends died, right? Perry White, Jimmy Olsen, Lois Lane, right? He says, you know, the, the said it was the guy from Gotham, meaning the Joker, and they have that the newspaper article framed. That was from the injustice video game from the injustice video game, right? Yeah.
00:51:13
Speaker
Yeah. So it's a lot of different, uh, incarnations of Superman that he's embodying in this. And I can't help but think that they said, you know what, we're going to give this guy his due, which he should have had and let him like in a way be all Superman. Yeah. And you know what?
00:51:34
Speaker
I am so excited about the Superman and Lois TV show with Tyler Hoechlin. I think he does a great job. I can't remember the name of the actress who plays Lois.
00:51:47
Speaker
Do you know what her name is? No, I don't. Because actually, since I haven't been keeping up with the CW show, that's the first time I actually saw her. Oh, OK. So you didn't watch the Elseworld's crossover last year, then? No, no. I haven't seen the other one. OK, but that's something else that I wanted to reference, too. That even though, because I know people have been asking me, they said, well, you know, I haven't been watching Flash. I haven't been watching Arrow. I said, it doesn't matter. You can watch this. Don't worry about it. Yeah.
00:52:15
Speaker
I mean, I haven't, I haven't seen, um, I watched the Flash leading up to it, but that, and I've watched most of Arrow leading up to it. Elizabeth Tullock, that's her name.
00:52:28
Speaker
So the thing about crisis is that it's very accessible. Even if you have been keeping up with like arrow or flash or, or even black lightning. Right. Cause they finally bring him in, they finally bring him in. They bring him in. Even if you haven't been keeping up there, you know what? This is very accessible. Yeah. They let you know, okay, this is who this is. This is who this is what earth they're on. And this is what they do. Cause they have a very,
00:52:54
Speaker
nice scene between Black Lightning and the Flash, where they introduce each other and they tell each other their real names. There are two great scenes, like there's the one where they first meet, right? And you know, Barry's trying to talk him down and everything, but then yeah, when they're on the wave rider together, I mean that was such a great scene, like both of those guys, Crest Williams and
00:53:18
Speaker
Grant Guston man, they're bringing their all in that scene. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and it's a and you kind of get the sense that the same kind of bonding that the flash had With green arrow. He's gonna have a black lightning. Yeah, that's kind of the feeling that I kind of got I
00:53:38
Speaker
because I kind of got that same vibe in that scene. Speaking of, I'm not sure if you saw this, but I saw this on Facebook yesterday. They had, there was a picture of Grant Gustin, you know, posing at Oliver Queen's grave with like a thumbs up. And the caption read, you know, when your best friend dies, but you still remember when he shot you in the back with two arrows.
00:54:06
Speaker
But see, you know what? That's another thing that I like about this whole Arrowverse, because you get the feeling that these people really did like each other in real life. And you couldn't help but translate into their performances. Oh, absolutely. Because, you know, because, I mean, the performances and all this is good. I mean, and getting back to Brandon Ralph. I mean, I couldn't love him more. I mean, I was at home watching it. And when they gave him the flyby,
00:54:32
Speaker
Yes. I stood up and cheated. Oh my god. And they gave the cat the Christopher Reeve fly by. They said, you can do it, bro. Yeah. And he was in the kingdom come suit, but it didn't change. So now the black was gold instead. It was witches.
00:54:49
Speaker
Which is why I can't help but think because they did establish that there are some other Earths out there now, you know, it's not a whole big multiverse, but there's some other Earth and he's on his own Earth. And like you said, they had changed. It wasn't black. It was, you know, gold, which didn't know. I can't help but think that they got plans for him. I know because they've got they've got this Superman TV show coming out. So
00:55:13
Speaker
I think they're gonna have something, you know, with him interacting on occasion with Tyler Hoechlin's Superman and Elizabeth Tullock's Lois Lane, which, you know, by the way, I gotta say, I loved how they interacted, right? Because there wasn't any sort of like jealousy or anything like that, right? None of that bullshit that you get in the lesser show, right? They're both, you know, they acknowledge, you know, yeah, we're the same guy.
00:55:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you know, we're Superman, you know. And, you know, I mean, there's nothing like Brandon Routh's Superman being jealous because Tyler Hoechlin's Superman still has his Lois Lane or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, he recognizes that, hey, you know, you're you and I'm me. This is what happened. And it's just, I don't know. I'm just, see, because I'm one of those people that I always felt that Brandon Routh never got a fear break. Agreed.
00:56:12
Speaker
in Superman return. He never got a fair break because you could see flashes of what he could have been in that movie if he had been allowed to play Superman the way he wanted. And they did give him the opportunity in this crossover. And I can't help but think that they just say, you know what?
00:56:32
Speaker
Do you? Yeah. You know, just do so. You know what? You want to do Superman? You do Superman the way you want to do Superman. One of the things I always wanted to see more of, based on the brief flashes we got of it in Superman Returns, was how he would play Clark Kent. Because the way he does it in Superman Returns, right, he doesn't play it at all the same way Reeve did, which, you know, we talked about this when we talked about Superman the movie. There's a lot of good in Reeve's performance, but sometimes his Clark got a little bit too over the top.
00:57:02
Speaker
Yeah. But Ralph- A little bit too, a little bit too bumbly. Right. Ralph goes the opposite direction, right? He plays him as the ultimate wallflower, where it's like you don't even notice he's there, which I think is perfect for Clark Kent because you're not gonna remember that guy's, you might remember the guy's face if he's tripping over everything and dropping things every five seconds, but you're not gonna remember his face if he's just like that guy who works at the planet that you kind of bump into every now and then.
00:57:32
Speaker
Right, because Clark Kenton is supposed to be the type of guy when he goes and he disappears and he's got to fly away like if he's in the Daily Planet and he's in the newsroom and they hear about there's a tsunami on the other side of the world and everybody's looking and they're watching the TV screen and everything like that. And then all of a sudden they see Superman, he's rescuing people from the tsunami. You've always seen those ladies around say, well, where's Clark? You know, because they don't even know he's gone. Exactly. Yeah.
00:58:01
Speaker
They don't even know he's gonna, you know, he, because as you say, he's a wallflower. He's got us in the back room. You know, you don't notice he's going, or he said, well, I gotta go to store room to get some pencils. Yeah. And you know, yeah, yeah, Clark. Okay, fine. Whatever. Goodbye. And you know, they don't even notice and they're looking on TV and Superman and saving people. And they said, well, where's Clark? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe not even who's Clark. Just where's that guy with the glasses?
00:58:28
Speaker
Yeah. And I also loved how they work in the fact that it's Brad and Ralph playing this Superman and also playing the Adam. When they meet him, they're just like, he looks just like Ray Palmer. And they did not shy away from it. No, no. They just said it right up front. They said, well, wow, you know what? You look like Ray Palmer. Yeah. And he comes back and they look at him like, wow, Ray, you're looking jacked. And it's like, that's not Ray Palmer. Yeah. Yeah.
00:58:59
Speaker
Uh, which I know some, which I think is the way to go with something like this. And I appreciate the fact that they did not, and I don't know, you know what I am. I understand that sometimes you will have like certain characters.
00:59:18
Speaker
that are dark and don't lend themselves to humor. And I know that a lot of people, they say, well, they don't think superheroes should be funny or dark and everything like that. But I do appreciate the fact that in between all of this thing with all of the universes dying, that there was still some room for humor.
00:59:37
Speaker
And the writers of this, you know, and all of the actors and everybody that was involved in this thing appreciate the fact that, yeah, even though, which is a lot of what shows like, what am I thinking of? MASH.
00:59:56
Speaker
MASH is based around the whole thing that people are doing comedy and having fun while people are dying around them, but they're doing it as a way of coping with the fact that there are people dying around them. Even beyond that, obviously, it's human nature. You talk to people who deal with death, they've got the darkest gallows humor you'll ever find.
01:00:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, but it's their way of dealing with it. Which is why I appreciate it in crisis that, yeah, they made time for humor in between. Yes, there are universes that's dying. There's billions of people that are being wiped out of existence. But yeah, there is still time for you. They have a scene where all of the girls, they stop and they have a drink. Yeah.
01:00:42
Speaker
simply, you know, simply because they got to take a break from this, you know, and just take a moment. But not beyond the human part. That's also the audience needs that too. Because you can't true. I mean, if you keep adding the tension, you keep turn turn cranking the tension, tension, tension, eventually it's going to break, right? You got to have something to break that tension. You cannot be relentlessly dark all the time, which is why
01:01:07
Speaker
It kind of worries me that people that need their entertainment to be so dark and miserable. What is it about you that you need for your entertainment to be so dark and miserable? Like people will actually say, well,
01:01:23
Speaker
Oh, so and so I love, you know, whatever show it is, but it's not dark enough. What do you mean it's not dark enough? Everybody dies in almost every episode. You know, they just keep needing it to be darker and more miserable. And no, I mean,
Humor and Humanity in Dark Narratives
01:01:41
Speaker
You need the light to balance out the darkness. Right. You know, in other words. And that's what they had in Crisis. Yes, it was. They had very dark moments. I mean, you talk about something like, you know, The Dark Knight, which, you know, it's been called a really dark movie, but there are moments of levity in that. There are moments when Alfred and Bruce are making jokes. Yeah. Logan, right? Logan was a really dark movie, but they had moments of levity in it.
01:02:11
Speaker
Well, of course, because you need that because that's also human because we tend to make jokes even when we're in the blackest situation. You know what? I've been the funerals. I've been the funerals that were hilarious. Yeah. You know what? People were cracking jokes and they were doing that simply as a way to deal with
01:02:31
Speaker
The darkness of the situation that we're here to celebrate somebody, you know, you know, but people like two years ago, I had my father's funeral. I gave the eulogy there. I had everybody laughing. I had the whole, the whole crowd of people laughing their asses off. Yeah. My grandfather, my, uh, mother's father, his funeral is one of the funniest things I've ever been. It was like a Richard Pryor concert where he was getting up and telling stories about him. Yeah.
01:03:01
Speaker
You know, that's just human nature. No, everything does not have to be so unrelenting grim and dark all the time. And if that's what you need in your entertainment, hey, well, fine, that's you. Me, I prefer to have a nice little balance. And that's what I got in crisis. Yes, we did have our dark moments, but we had like at the end scene with
01:03:22
Speaker
We get the Hall of Justice. Yes. Finally. Finally. And we get the Justice League. Yeah, because they've been teasing that Hall of Justice ever since Invasion. Yeah. And they finally did. But then the last thing we get is what we get is the Cage with Gleek. Yes. And we get the Super Friends theme playing.
01:03:50
Speaker
Yeah, which to me I said, you know what, they couldn't have ended it on a more, you know, that was the perfect note to end it on. Yeah, and they did what Crysis did too, right? You know, because at the end of Crysis, they merged together the world and they created a new Earth. And that's what they did here. So finally, all these Earths are now together. We don't have to worry about jumping back and forth. All of it's now together. Superman has always existed in the history of the Flash TV show.
01:04:20
Speaker
Oh, speaking of, like one of my favorite moments was when Black Lightning arrives on the Wave Rider and he meets everyone else. And he finds out that Superman is not only real, but there are two of them. Yeah. He's like, do you know Superman is real? Now, okay. There's one thing I wanted to ask you, you always asking me, I'm glad I maybe last you up because two of your favorite characters showed up in
01:04:48
Speaker
Crisis that I wouldn't ask you what you thought about that John Constantine in Lucifer. Yes. Oh my god That was one of my favorite moments. I mean They there was a rumor floating around on Twitter and everywhere that Tom Ellis was on the set of crisis So everybody was kind of wondering is are they really gonna have Lucifer in there? Are they or is it just gonna be like kind of like a wink and a nod cameo? But they went full out brought him to earth 666. Yeah, yeah And then
01:05:16
Speaker
most appropriate. And it's just a short scene, right? They just, they show up to Lucifer and they need to have a way to get into purgatory. But like in that short scene, Matt Smith and Tom Ellis, like the way they play off each other was so great.
01:05:31
Speaker
And, well, what did you think of that? Because I know you've never seen Lucifer, right? I've never seen Lucifer. But I did appreciate the fact that they had John Constantine on here, because this guy's been bouncing around from one network to another, playing John Constantine. And you know what? In animated movies, too. In animated movies, too. He never set some foot wrong. Yeah. You know, this is the same guy. No matter what network he's on or what show he's on, it's the same guy. Yeah.
01:06:00
Speaker
You know, and I think that he, I think the strength of him playing John Constantine is that he plays him like that. You know, no matter what kind of like to about that scene is how it's not stated directly, but it's kind of implied like there's one John Constantine in the multiverse. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:18
Speaker
Yeah, there's only one John Constantine, which which is a notion that I like. Yeah, it should be like certain characters. I think this should be only one version of them. And yeah, the thought that there's one John and you get the feeling that, of course, he knows about the multiverse. Oh, yeah. He has history with Lucifer, right? He says, you know, yeah, you know, you owe me for that thing with Mays was a loose one of Lucifer's friends.
01:06:46
Speaker
So this is all like not really freaking him out because he knows about it already.
01:06:53
Speaker
But yeah, that scene was great. It was so awesome seeing the two of them together and just watching them riff off each other. Also, I love the little reference at the end before they leave. Lucifer says, he calls him John Constantine instead of John Constantine because the British pronunciation of it is Constantine. That's how the name is supposed to be pronounced. But whenever it's been adapted, they've gone with the American pronunciation of Constantine.
01:07:22
Speaker
Oh, you know what? I was wondering why that was a thing that they threw in there. And I said, well, I'm sure somebody will explain to me. Okay, cool. Yeah. But see, that's one of the things I love about this. If you get it, fine. But if you don't, it doesn't spoil your overall enjoyment of what's going on. Yeah. Now, you know, there is a downside
01:07:45
Speaker
or a bit of a downer point about the Lucifer Constantine scene. And that's that it was so good, right? Because and afterwards, you know, it started going around like Warner Brothers was pitched on like a TV movie or something where Lucifer and John Constantine team up, right? Just like a TV special, a TV, something like that, right? Just a done in one thing. Tom Ellis wants to do it. Matt Smith wants to do it.
01:08:15
Speaker
The fans wanna see that. The fans will probably pay for that if you put it on streaming service. And Warner Brothers is just like, no, we don't want money. Really? Why? Why wouldn't you do that? It's a no brainer. Yeah. I mean, Warner Brothers has this way of just like, oh, here's a nice gun. I think I'll see what it's like to shoot myself in the foot with it.
01:08:44
Speaker
That's a good thing, I'm like... Wow, that's... Damn. Yeah, I mean, you know, like you said, that's like a no... If the actors want to do it and the fans want to see it, you know, why would you leave money on the table like that? Yeah, I mean, why haven't they given... brought back Constantine on DC Universe and out?
01:09:06
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you know what? Because I'm not as big a Constantine fan as you and some of my other friends. But you know what I've seen on this guy on TV? I like him. Yeah. This guy. Yeah. And his show was great. It was, you know, cut short. It was only ended up lasting like nine episodes. Um,
01:09:28
Speaker
But yeah, there's no reason they shouldn't have brought it in. Yeah, which I don't understand why the CW just doesn't have a Constantine show to explore, like the magical side of the DC universe.
01:09:47
Speaker
I don't know. We could spend like 100 years trying to figure out why WB does the stupid shit they do and we would never come close to finding an answer. And we should also mention that they do establish that the shows that they have on the streaming service
01:10:08
Speaker
DC Universe like Titans. Yes. I was going to mention that. And Doom Patrol and Swamp Thing, they also exist in this. They acknowledge, yeah, this is all part of it too. Oh, so speaking of going back to Constantine, just real quick, because you didn't see the show. So Jim Corrigan.
01:10:27
Speaker
That actor who played Jim Corrigan, the Spectre, he appeared in Constantine first and he died at the end of the episode. And there was a hint that he would become the Spectre later on. So they pick up on that from the Constantine TV show. Wow. Okay, cool. See, you know what? That's what I really liked about this whole crisis thing. They brought back everybody. They said, listen, you want to be a part of this? We're not leaving anybody out. If you were at all any part of
01:10:57
Speaker
this whole, uh, you know, DC universe, we're going to give you a small part and we're going to acknowledge you and we're going to let you have your moment to shine, which everybody did. Robert Wolf from Batman playing Alexander Knox, right? He's in the opening and he's looking up in the sky and there's the bat signal.
01:11:15
Speaker
And they had the music. Yeah. And he looks up at us, oh my God, Alexander Knox, who we haven't seen in 40 years. And I don't know where it appeared in the show, but before Crisis aired, there was an image of a newspaper article with Michael Keaton. Michael Keaton's photo had said Bruce Wayne to marry Selena Kyle.
01:11:41
Speaker
Well, I think that's supposed to be the newspaper that Alexander Knox is holding. Oh, OK. OK. I think I don't know. But I think that, yeah, I know what you're talking about. But I think that's the newspaper. Because when we see him, he said, don't answer why Alexander Knox is sitting on a bench in the middle of the night reading a newspaper. You know? Well, I mean, it's the Tim Burton verse. It's always night.
01:12:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:12:16
Speaker
To me, that's the one thing that I love that they acknowledge. They said, OK, no matter what DC show you've seen or even the cartoons, since we got Gleek and, you know, and the super front, no matter what you say, it exists somewhere out there. We're not saying that it don't exist and it's not valid. And you know what? It's funny because this was
01:12:38
Speaker
You know, back in the mid-90s, I think it was, this was the idea that Grant Morrison and Mark Wade had for DC Comics, to explain the multiverse, to explain the timelines. Their idea of hypertime was basically, it's all real. Everything from all the different adaptations, all of it exists in the same universe. And it's kind of nice to see their idea finally be acknowledged, because DC said, no, we're not going to do that back in the day.
01:13:08
Speaker
Can I put forth my vote hoping that from now on, we will see every time they have a crossover, that we will see Marv Wolfman appear? Oh, that was such a great moment. Oh, that was so much fun. When he just runs in and he says, oh, could you sign my book? And they look at him and say, oh, you know, he said, yeah, y'all been together forever.
01:13:31
Speaker
Oh, I'd laugh so hard when you say, oh, yeah, y'all guys been together forever. You know, one thing I was surprised, though, and like I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there was at some point in one of the shows a reference to the psycho pirate. But he doesn't appear at all in this at all. He didn't appear at all in Crisis. That was a little bit. No, no, he did. Which is one thing that I always loved about the original, you know, the comic book in that
01:13:59
Speaker
The Psycho Pirate, out of all people in the... He was the only one that remembered the multiverse. And John Constantine. And John Constantine. Yeah, but John Constantine is not going to tell. And he's not going to be driven crazy by it. Yeah, and that's the thing. The Psycho Pirate was driven crazy by what he knew. Yeah, exactly. And he was the only one that knew that, whereas in this version,
01:14:26
Speaker
We've got the Martian Manhunter. He goes around to everybody and he imbues the memory of what went on so that, you know, all of the legends, all of the legends and the members of the Justice League, they remember the multiverse. Yeah.
01:14:42
Speaker
Thought was a neat little twist because I wasn't sure if they were gonna go the the route of the crisis where You know people have some vague recollection that something happened But they don't remember the multiverse before which is how it is for everybody else but so I was I was kind of surprised that they decided to give that knowledge to the to the main characters Yeah, yeah, I mean if it was me I
01:15:05
Speaker
I would have went with like nobody remembers except like you said like John like maybe people like John Constantine and John Jones you know the Martian man maybe they remember it but I would have just had everybody just assume it but yeah but he gives his memory to everybody so now we have all of the major superheroes they know about the multiverse
01:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, and Lex Luthor has apparently ingratiated himself, right? He's apparently gotten redeemed, which I think is definitely gonna be a big point in the Superman and Lois show.
01:15:40
Speaker
Which is another thing I wanted to ask you about, because I don't know. Everybody seems to love John Cryer as Lex Luthor. To me, it seems to me that he's just doing Gene Hackman. Maybe it's just him. Well, when I saw him on Supergirl, I had the exact same reaction. I didn't really care much for him when he was on Supergirl. I kind of warmed to him a little bit more in this. I think he stepped up his performance a bit. But yeah.
01:16:10
Speaker
He's still not, I don't know, I'm hoping it gets better because he's already improved in my eyes at least a little bit from Supergirl to Crisis. So hopefully that continues, but we'll have to see. And I think he's doing Gene Hackman because he actually did work with Gene Hackman because he played Lex Luthor's nephew in one of the Superman movies. Oh, okay. And he was also, he's also apparently a big comic fan too.
01:16:38
Speaker
Yeah, and I believe it was in Superman IV, The Quest for Peace. Oh, right, right, right, okay. He played Lenny Luther. Yeah, yeah. And he took the place of Otis when he was the bumbling henchman. So when I saw him playing Lex Luthor and I was watching, I said, okay, but he's doing the hack man.
01:16:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. You know, although, although I do think that you're right, that in crisis, he's kind of like stepped up his game and he's kind of like establishing his own Lex Luthor kind of. Yeah. And, you know, um,
01:17:17
Speaker
Another thing I wanted to ask you, oh, I love this episode, because I'm going to ask you stuff for change. Only because I know you're such a big fan of this show. I didn't follow it as much as you did. But how did you like the resolution of the Smallville version of Car Can Superman? Well, see, I didn't really, I wasn't a Smallville fan. So like I loved it at first. Like the first four seasons were great. But after that, it really started to go downhill. And then I just kind of like hate watched it.
01:17:49
Speaker
you know, they would jump the shark several times in the season. And sometimes they would do it multiple times in one episode. So I kept watching just for that. Oh, okay. And I mean, you know, that and Michael Rosenbaum. Michael Rosenbaum was actually the reason I stayed around for as long as I did. Well, that's what a lot of people tell me. They said that they, you know, they stuck around, you know, for him, Michael Rosenbaum. Yeah. I mean, his Lex Luthor hands down my favorite take on the character.
01:18:10
Speaker
It became this thing because...
01:18:19
Speaker
Mean I I so when they were talking about bringing Lex Luthor into this universe I so hoped they would try to get Rosenbaum back but and he was asked if he wanted to appear in in crisis, but it was apparently just a small cameo and Then he turned it down because he said like, you know what they were offering what they wanted He's like I didn't feel it really did enough justice to the character Okay Which is it's too bad would have been nice to see him back. But so all that said like I didn't I
01:18:48
Speaker
because Tom Welling has an allergy to wearing that suit. Even in the last scene when he finally opens his shirt and there's the suit underneath, apparently that was CG because he wouldn't wear the damn thing.
01:19:03
Speaker
But I think it was nice that they had this little resolution and it's like, you know, he gave up his power so he could be a dad. I mean, it was, and the moments with him and Lex were also pretty cool. And also seeing Erica Durance back as Lois Lane. So it was a nice scene. I really liked it, but it wasn't anything, it was maybe a bit longer than I think it needed to be. But one thing I will say that I did like a lot is,
01:19:32
Speaker
When Elizabeth Tullock's Lois Lane, you know, she sees Brandon Routh's Superman, all super buff. She sees Tom Welling's Clark Kent, all super buff. And then you've got Tyler Oakland, who's much more lean, right? He's always like, giving like these second glances at them. Did you pick up on that? Yeah, you know, hey, you could have been, you know.
01:20:00
Speaker
And each time, like, Clark gives her this look, like, really? Come on. I wasn't, you know, see, I'm like you. Okay, I never was a big fan of Smallville. I think I watched it, like, regularly for, like, the first two seasons, and then after that, I just watched it on and off. But I think that as a resolution to that whole universe,
Closure in Superhero Storytelling
01:20:25
Speaker
That worked because since that was, since Tom Welling was playing a Superman, didn't want to be Superman anyway. The fact that he gave up his power just to be a regular guy. Yeah. And you know, I said, you know what? That works for me. Yeah. Same here.
01:20:41
Speaker
And I also appreciate the fact, like they did, that they gave a closure to that particular series. They said, OK, well, you know what? We're just going to close this out. And it's a closure that fits a lot better than the actual Smallville finale did. That's what some other people have told me. They said they actually liked that better than the way that it actually ended. Yeah. Yeah, which again, this is a crossover since they're fixing a lot of things
01:21:10
Speaker
in the various series and universes that they fix that. They say, okay, well, you know what? We're going to fix this and give a satisfying ending. I mean, I had no problem. I mean, I really had no problem with, you know, crisis, much like, and I always compare it and people say,
01:21:31
Speaker
And we had talked about this early on the end episode. So I don't know. Well, it was nothing like in game. I said, yes, it was. I said, this was a whole lot like Avengers Endgame. And then it provided closure to a lot of things that have been building up in the Arrowverse for eight years. Yeah. And then, of course, after that, we got the last Arrow episode, which is kind of like, you know, the epilogue to this. You know, I watched that. I said, yeah, this is kind of like the epilogue.
01:21:58
Speaker
OK, so I haven't seen I haven't seen that Arrow episode yet. So how do you think it works as an epilogue? I think it works fine. OK, I do. You know, you know what? Because see me, I do not like. Oh.
01:22:15
Speaker
OK, you have a lot of shows that have what they call a series finale. And to me, it's not really like a finale. It's like they just put the characters in a holding pattern in case they decide they wouldn't bring the show back in a couple of years or have a movie or whatever. But Arrow, yeah, they did provide a closure. And can I say that I think that, you know what, what's the name of the guy that plays Oliver Queen? Stephen Amell.
01:22:44
Speaker
such a ham. This guy got two hero death scenes. He didn't just get one. He got two hero death scenes. And then an arrow, he gets another, well he doesn't get a death scene, but he gets like a scene. I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it, but if you haven't seen it, well you need to go watch it. But he gets a scene in the afterlife.
01:23:08
Speaker
Let me put it that way. Okay. And I think that year it says, okay, this is the end to Oliver Queen's story, which is what I appreciate. If you're going to have a series finale, then have a finale ended. I didn't think that was, that was kind of funny the way they did that, how they said, you know, cause they'd been building up to the fact that Oliver Queen's going to die in this, right?
01:23:31
Speaker
Just just like Tony star is gonna die in endgame. We know it. All right, and then DC I think what happened is like Greg Berlanti watch endgame and he's like, you know what? Fuck you. You killed your main hero one time. We're gonna kill him twice Most actors pray for one great death scene in their career. This cat got two. Yeah so yeah, but
01:23:58
Speaker
In Arrow, in the last episode, yeah, they do firmly establish, listen, Oliver Queen is dead, which I don't think I'm spoiling anything about telling anybody because they told you, yeah, Oliver Queen is dead, you know, he's not. Which is another thing that I appreciate about
01:24:19
Speaker
superheroes being in movies and in television now because they give us something that comic books are simply not able to give us. They give us a complete end to a story. They show us a superhero when he, okay, like an arrow. We saw Oliver Queen when he becomes arrow.
01:24:38
Speaker
and, you know, he starts off, as you said earlier, they didn't even call him the Green Arrow. I think it was, I think it wasn't until like the fifth or sixth season. Well, it was like, I think it like season two or season three is when they started calling him Arrow. And then, yeah, it wasn't until like season five when finally he became Green Arrow. Right, Green Arrow. But we saw in that whole run of Arrow, we saw the whole career of a superhero from beginning to end. Yeah.
01:25:07
Speaker
And it is okay now we go into somebody else because he passes on the green arrow mantle to his daughter. Right and that's that's that's gonna be a backdoor spin-off because that was it was a backdoor spin-off for I don't know if it's actually been ordered to series or not but they're trying to get a spin-off with her it was like and called green arrow in the canaries.
01:25:28
Speaker
See, see me, if I see, okay. Like most comic book fans, I always fantasize about what I would do if I had my own comic book company. If I had my own comic book company, one of my mandates would be that every 10 years, the character has to pass on the identity to somebody else. He quits or he dies and he goes to somebody else. Because that's just, you know, you don't go on for 50 years.
01:25:54
Speaker
You know, but because but and I understand because of licensing and copyrights and trademark stuff like that. That's why Bruce Wayne is always going to be Batman. Right. Even though he may give it up for one. But he's all because they have to do that because they had to preserve the trademark. I understand that. I got no problem with that. Right. But I do appreciate the fact that movies are different.
01:26:15
Speaker
And TVs are different. They said, well, you know something? We can do the story of Oliver Queen in eight seasons and end it. And have somebody else be Green Arrow. Well, because they kind of have to, because that's just the expectations of the audience, right? You get a complete series.
01:26:31
Speaker
And so plus, you know, the actors got to move on eventually, too. So so it's good that they that we've got this venue where we can have that that bookend and they can close it off and, you know, leave it there. And then, you know, maybe in 10 years we'll get another Green Arrow, but it won't be a continuation of the Stephen Amell version.
01:26:50
Speaker
Right. Exactly. And if you want, and if you want to go see that version, you can always go back and watch the show over again. Right. And it's there for other generations to go back and say, okay, well, okay. Well, this is the third version of green arrow. We have one, you know, Netflix or whatever like that. They can go back and they can see, you know, the Steven ML version. But the thing to me is that, you know what? It's a finite story. It doesn't just keep going on and on and on. Like,
01:27:20
Speaker
I mean, really? How many stories now? Okay. We've had Bruce Wayne as Batman for what, like 60 years now? There's literally nothing you can do now with Batman's Bruce Wayne. We have not seen before. Yeah. Seriously. You can't. He's got nothing. He's lost his fortune. He's gotten married. He's gotten divorced. He's gotten, he's died like five times at least.
01:27:45
Speaker
Now, there is one thing that you can do with Batman and Bruce Wayne hasn't been done before, but I'm not going to say it in public because I'm saving it for my own original character. I don't want to do. But there is one thing nobody's ever done with him before. There is. OK, but I got to get I got to get that story once we once you wrap up the episode then. Yeah. But yeah. But speaking of Batman, right? Let's talk about Kevin Conroy. Oh.
01:28:12
Speaker
Now, I don't know about you, but, cause I've seen, I saw this twice, you know, first in the individual episodes, then I watched it all in one chunk when it was completed. But watching Kevin Conroy as playing Bruce Wayne Batman, it felt so surreal to me because I do not picture that face with that voice. You've heard that voice and you have a picture you associate with that voice. Yes. And seeing him,
01:28:42
Speaker
Yeah, you don't associate the picture in your mind. You said, wait a minute. And it's kind of like this thing that you got to get. You said, wait a minute, because you've heard this voice for 30 years. What 30 years now, since the 1980s, 1990s. Kevin Conroy has played Batman longer than anybody. Yeah. Period. And when you hear Batman. OK, like if I was to pick up a Batman comic right now after we finish,
01:29:10
Speaker
and read it. You know what I'm hearing? I'm hearing Kevin Conroy. Every time. Every time. Not even consciously trying to. Every time. I hear Kevin Conroy. So when you finally see him playing Batman, you say, huh? Wait. Yeah. So I understand what you're saying. It's like
01:29:32
Speaker
Your brain is struggling. Yeah. The second watch through, I actually had to look down every time he was on screen and just listen. Yeah. You're struggling. Okay. Well, the voice is right.
01:29:49
Speaker
But the actual physical, yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean. And you know what's interesting is, cause just like they did with Brandon and Ralph's Superman and they mixed together like Superman in the movie and Superman returns with injustice. They also did the same thing with Conroy's Batman, right? I mean, like he's wearing the exoskeleton from kingdom come, but there's also a bit of Dark Knight returns in there. There's a bit of Batman versus Superman in there. Like some of his dialogue is taken directly from BVS. Yeah.
01:30:19
Speaker
Like when he talks about how he talks about what his parent, what Superman's parents did, he's like, my parents taught me his different lesson. That's straight out of Batman v Superman. Well, he had the glasses in there, you know, the broken pair of glasses called glasses. Yeah, you know, because a bad woman, she sees them and she said, holy shit, you know, he kept them as apparently he killed Superman and he kept them as a trophy, you know. So this is like a really dark version of, you know,
01:30:50
Speaker
Batman. And while I do appreciate that, yeah, they gave Kevin Conroy a chance to play him in live action, you know, like you said, the dichotomy, I think we said, well, wow. You know, and who was the guy was supposed to be? Was that supposed to be? What's his name? You know, the black guy that was hanging out with him. Yeah, that's Luke Fox.
01:31:21
Speaker
Oh, okay. Lucius' son, who in the comics, he becomes Batwing. Oh, okay. I wasn't sure. I was thinking maybe that was supposed to be like a black version of the kid who's in Batman Beyond. Oh, Terry McGinnis. Terry McGinnis. Yeah. I thought maybe that was supposed to be Terry McGinnis. Yeah. No, no. Because Luke Fox is a supporting character in Batwoman.
01:31:43
Speaker
Right. Oh, okay. So that's why they put him in there because, you know, that's why they had that little conversation when she says, oh, he's kind of supergirl goes, he's kind of cute. And Batgirl says, and Batwoman says, no, that's weird. Yeah. Okay. All right.
01:31:58
Speaker
So yeah, that was just a reference to the Batwoman TV show. Now- Which also that's something else that I kind of like. I kind of like how they've transferred like the whole world's finest type of thing from Superman and Batman to Supergirl and Batwoman. Yeah. Yeah, I do too. You know, they're kind of like the world's finest team now. Yeah. And because, you know, I was suspecting that they were going to merge the earths together when last year when they did Elseworlds,
01:32:28
Speaker
And they had this... they established this rapport between Supergirl and Batwoman, but... it seemed weird. Because it's... you knew where they were going down that world's finest route, but it seemed weird that they were doing it at the same time, because they still had Supergirl on her own Earth, but Batwoman was from the same Earth as Arrow and The Flash.
01:32:49
Speaker
So that was when I first suspected that when they do crisis, they're going to bring them all into one earth. So then they actually can have the Supergirl Batwoman crossover stuff and it will make much more sense. And you know what? I kind of like the whole thing was Supergirl was like kind of overjoyed that now they're on the same earth. Yeah. I mean, you know, she had that little bit, she had that little bit like she was like, yeah.
01:33:13
Speaker
I mean, Melissa Benoist, she's, she's so infectiously cheerful. Oh man, she's good. She is adorable. Oh, I just remember what I wanted to, what I wanted to mention before is that I saw Jay and Silent Bob reboot.
01:33:29
Speaker
And she has a cameo in that. In the rebooted Batman V Superman-esque Bluntman V chronic, Melissa Benoist plays Jason's character. Really? Yeah, she plays the new chronic. So they turn chronic into a woman. And they brought Val Kilmer to play Bluntman. Oh Lord, that cat.
01:33:57
Speaker
But it was a fun movie. It's basically Jay and Silent Bob strike back all over again, and it's just like tons of in-jokes from his podcast and everything. So if you're not a fan, you'll probably hate it. But if you are a fan, it was just like two hours of nothing but pure fan service. Oh, well, that's okay. I mean, listen, I love Kevin Smith. I do. I love Kevin Smith.
01:34:24
Speaker
I know a lot of people they, you know, they have the issues with them and, you know, maybe valid or whatever like that. But, you know, to me, the guy is just chill. Yeah. He's just, you know, he's a fan boy. Oh, totally. Yeah. And he's like the biggest fan. Like he's legit like he like he almost never bitches about stuff. No, no. Yeah. And you know what? I like that. I don't like.
01:34:48
Speaker
people that bitch and complain and moan and whine. Like I, like I even watched the thing cause uh, they had the thing, um, he hosted like the little after show, you know, when they had the crisis. Yeah. You know, and you know, his love and joy of all of this stuff is so infectious. And I know people, they complain and whine about him and everything. And, and to me, my whole thing is okay, fine. Yeah. But what have you done? Yeah. Yeah.
01:35:14
Speaker
And he's not only that, but he's not full of himself at all. The only thing he ever talks bad about is his own work. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If he criticizes anything, then he criticizes what he's done. Yeah. And he always does one way. He's always making fun of himself. But I mean, Dogma? Yeah. Dogma is one of the best movies. Oh, Dogma's amazing. I just re-watched that again recently. Oh, and they do have Matt Damon comes back for a scene as Loki from Dogma.
01:35:44
Speaker
Oh, really? Yeah. And they connect Dogma to the Bourne series. See, now I gotta see this movie. I have to see this now. And he also says, he makes a reference because they're like, he's like, I'm Loki. You might remember, he's like, I know your kids right now are probably saying, that's not Tom Hiddleston. He's like, no, I'm the real Loki without the fake British accent. I'm the real.
01:36:14
Speaker
Oh, man. They also do have a reference to the Marvel movies because they're talking about because they bring back Jason Lee as Brody from Mallrats. Really? Yeah, yeah. And so there's this scene when they're in the shop with Brody and
01:36:29
Speaker
Brody's explaining them about remakes and he's like, what they do is they take something you loved as a kid and now they give it just a little bit of a twist so that they make you buy the same shit all over again. They're just gonna keep on doing it. And then Jay makes comments like, yeah, like how many more Marvel movies do we need? And Jason Lee's like, hey man, shut the fuck up. Those Marvel movies are like my religion.
01:36:55
Speaker
Oh my god. It's great. It's such a fun movie. Oh, yeah. I'll tell you, I love character. The movie that he made where he talks about where he goes through the whole thing, where he talks about how he was involved in the writing of a screenplay for a Superman movie, and he has the meeting
01:37:18
Speaker
with, you know, John Peters, that is Richard Pryor level humor. That is genius. I saw him do that live, actually, because he tells he told. Yeah, like you had him because he had retold that story so many different times. Like I wasn't the one I was not the one where they filmed it. But at but I saw him at Wizard World in Chicago, like God, like 15 years ago or something like that. And he told the story there. And like that was the first time I had heard it was seeing him do it live. It was amazing.
01:37:48
Speaker
Yeah, because you know what, that shit is so, you can't make that shit like that up. It's so bizarre. Yeah, it's a level of such surrealistic bizarreness that you know he's not making it up. You know, it's funny, when they did the documentary, The Making of Superman Lives, and John Peters responds to that, and he's like, that never happened, that never happened. And everyone, you're watching that, and you're looking at John Peters, and you're like, that guy's full of shit.
01:38:16
Speaker
Yeah, right. Yeah, man. Yeah, you're full of shit. Yeah, that shit happened. Yeah. Because everybody that has talked to John Peters, they said the same thing. They said the cat always wants, for some reason, he wants a giant spider in the movie. Yeah. I love that book as in the Wild Wild West. Because in the Wild Wild West, he finally got it. Yeah. The doors open. There's the giant. He's like, motherfucker finally got his giant spider.
01:38:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's like and everybody says it. They said, but somebody is he's obsessed with having a giant spider. Yeah, I love that party. And Kevin Smith's story when he's like, you know, yeah, John, he's like, yeah, so John loved you. He likes the script. We want to bring you on. Did he mention the spider? Yeah, did he mention the spider? Yeah, he told you guys that, too. It was like every day with the fucking spider.
01:39:16
Speaker
Oh, man. Hilarious. OK, so. All right, so. But yeah, and I just completely lost my train of thought about this. I know, I know. We just, we just, we got to bring this back to our final thoughts. OK, so what are your final thoughts as a whole of crisis on Infinite Earths? Overall, you know, just very happy, very impressed. It was.
01:39:45
Speaker
Like, you know, the CW shows, they get their ups and downs, but you know what? I love them. They're so much fun. And, you know, Flash has been my favorite ever since it came out. And it's just so...
01:39:57
Speaker
It's so embraces like the superhero side of it. And like all the craziness that comes along with it, the multiverses, all that stuff. It just, it's not shy about embracing all of it. And I love it about that. And that's continued on through these other shows to the point where now you've got legends, which just does not give a shit at all. They're just gonna throw- Which is just bat shit and say, yeah. Yeah. That's just so they just say, you know what? We're just gonna do all the bat shit and say stuff. Yeah. You know.
01:40:25
Speaker
I mean, you want to see Heatwave writing erotic romances? We're giving you that. You want to see a giant stuffed animal fighting a demon? We're giving you that. It's just like they don't care. Yeah.
01:40:44
Speaker
But yeah, I love it. It's nowhere, it's not on the same technical level as Endgame. It's not on the same emotional level, but it totally works for these shows. And it also opens the door to more stuff because with, more so than, I think that's one thing where it succeeds where Endgame, well, Endgame, I don't wanna say Endgame failed at this, just they didn't have a reason to even try. But, you know, Endgame,
01:41:14
Speaker
If you stopped the Marvel Cinematic Universe right after Endgame and put it on the shelf, it would be fine. Yeah, agree. Agree, yeah. If they never decide to make another movie,
01:41:29
Speaker
After Avengers Endgame, I would be happy. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing in there that's left open that you're not sure what's going to happen next. I mean, yeah, there's the thing with Thor joining the Guardians, but that's about it. But other than that, it's completely it closes out the Marvel Cinematic Universe perfectly. Like, they're not going to close it out. And, you know, thank God for that. But.
01:41:52
Speaker
but they it does serve as that now crisis but let's say that okay but let's say that you as a moviegoer you say well you know something i don't want to go see any more marvel cinematic universe movies you don't have to right right it's a perfect closure point right you have that perfect closure point
01:42:12
Speaker
And you can just have those movies, which I guess they're boxing it now, they're calling it the Infinity Saga. You can just have that. And that's it. You don't have to watch another Marvel movie for the rest of your life. Yeah. And you would not feel like you're missing out on anything. Yeah, you would not feel like you're missing out on anything. No, you would. Crisis does something different. They close out Arrow and all that, and this whole thing with the multiverse.
01:42:40
Speaker
But then they, right before the end, they throw the doors wide open to something new. And I really like that, that now we're gonna have, you know, Superman and The Flash and Black Lightning and Batwoman all in the same universe together. I'm really excited to see where it goes from here. Like, I cannot wait for this season of shows to come to Netflix so that I can just binge them all in one weekend. Because I'm gonna do it, I know I am.
01:43:10
Speaker
Well, you know what? Actually, that's what I was doing. I was waiting until after the season was over, and then I was watching it on Netflix, but I've gotten behind. But after seeing Crisis, this has encouraged me to go back and catch up on what I've been missing.
01:43:26
Speaker
You know, so there is that too, that I think that, and I don't think I'm the only one that a lot of people, if they've been slacking off on watching the very CW shows, crisis made me want to go back and catch up on what I, you know, said, well, uh, I don't need to watch the season of the flash. I don't need to watch this. I don't want, but now I want to go back and I want to, you know, catch up on the seasons that I'm missing. Yeah. Simply, simply by seeing this because
01:43:54
Speaker
It was so good. And I mean, the execution, the acting, like you said, yeah, okay. It didn't have a $200 million budget. But again, this is something that I want to impress upon our listeners that, okay, you have the comic books. I grew up reading the comic books. But the comic books have gotten away from what
01:44:23
Speaker
I was reading them for. I was reading them for the stories and the characters. It's not about events and, you know, the continuity has to fit, you know, here and there. And they got to explain every little thing. And we have to retcon this and we have to retcon. The movies and the TV series don't do that. They just tell good stories about interesting characters. Yeah.
01:44:46
Speaker
Bingo, bottom line, and that's what people respond to. Really, people don't give two figs about the continuity. You know who cares about that? The Nutjob fanboys. Right. Oh, yeah, well, you got a man. Oh, well, what about the continuity? And nobody cares about that. Robert Grant Morrison one time in an interview, he was talking about how
01:45:10
Speaker
the difference between the way kids perceive the world in the way adults or the way they perceive fiction and he's like um you know a kid doesn't wonder how superman flies a kid doesn't wonder you know how batman has this big cave under his with filled with all these these gadgets you know nobody cares who fills the air on
01:45:31
Speaker
Nobody cares who filled the air in the batmobile that's exactly what i was getting to that's exactly what he said that's the exact example he said he's like he's like nobody nobody nobody does it's like that's who doesn't nobody kids understand that they don't care it just happens.
01:45:46
Speaker
Yeah, why does Superman fly? Because he can. Yeah. It's just that simple, folks. Yeah, well, it's the gravitons and it's the lesser gravi- No, Superman flies because Superman can fly. Well, I remember when John Byrne rebooted Superman, like he did all this talk about how, you know, well, Superman's invulnerability is there's this invisible force field that's just like hovering right above his skin and just like, yeah, yeah. Who gives a shit?
01:46:16
Speaker
no nobody cares no and and they say like yeah and that force field that's why his suit is always protected whenever he gets blown up and but his cape never dies and that's how we could lift things up because the force field like extends and that's his super like who gives a shit
01:46:34
Speaker
And that was only an excuse for John Vernon, every issue, to draw a Superman with a torn cape. Exactly. Yeah. Because he had to point out that, well, the force field does not extend the Superman's cape. Get the hell out. Nobody, you know what, nobody cares. Yeah. And really, we got away from that in the comic books, but the movies,
01:46:59
Speaker
and the tv shows they realize that people basically really don't care about that and the only ones who care about that is the comic book fans who insist that well you should care about it well no i care about the characters and i care about the stories but that's one of the problems with that the cop because you know the comic industry it's kind of in like this self-perpetuating cycle where they want to reach new readers but
Industry Challenges and Superhero Ideals
01:47:26
Speaker
They're still beholden to the fanboys and the direct market. And as long as they're beholden to the fanboys and the direct market, they can't appeal to the new readers. They can't do what the TV shows and the movies are doing. So it's this back and forth that keeps going on, and they can't really break out of that. Yeah. Yeah, I hear you. And I say that as someone who still reads the comics and still likes a lot of them. So I'm not putting down the comics themselves. I think there's a lot of good stuff going on. But there's still- Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, little weaknesses there in the industry.
01:47:56
Speaker
As an artful, and mind you, when I talk about the comic book industry, I'm talking about the big two, which is Marvel and DC, which is what most people think of when we talk about the comic books. They don't realize there's a whole universe of other comic book characters and companies out there that are producing comic books.
01:48:15
Speaker
but we tend to focus on Marvel and DC because they're the big two. And you know, they produce the characters that most people are familiar with, even people that don't know anything about.
01:48:27
Speaker
You know, the comic books, if you present it, I mean, like I think that they said that Superman is like one of the three most recognizable fictional characters in the world. Oh, absolutely. Everybody knows Superman. Everybody knows Batman. Yeah. Everybody knows Wonder Woman. Even if you've never my wife has never read a single Batman comic book, but she knows Batman. Oh, yeah. My grandma knows Superman, right? Yeah, everybody. Right. Everybody knows Superman because they're so recognizable. They're so iconic. But again,
01:48:56
Speaker
It's not because of the minutia about how the powers work. Right. We recognize Superman because of what he represents. Right. He represents the best in humanity.
01:49:07
Speaker
He's an example. That's what we, that's what we recognize about. It's not about, well, he's got a force field that we don't recognize the mind. We'll have a Superman fly. We, most people, 90, 90% of the world, 99% of the world who knows Superman doesn't recognize him because of that. They recognize him because of why he says what? True justice and the American way. Yeah. Bottom line.
01:49:33
Speaker
That's why we know. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, these shows, they bring that back. They bring back that like kind of sense of wonder you had when you first started reading those comics. Yeah. And and again, like I, I still read Marvel, I still read DC, I still love them, but I don't get that same sense of wonder that I get when I watch the movies or the TV shows. Because when you watch it, OK, when you're watching The Crisis in there, what is everybody? Nobody talks about how good an archer
01:50:01
Speaker
Oliver Queen is. They talk about what a good man he is and what he represents and how he inspired them to be heroes. Yeah. That's what, yeah, exactly. That's what superheroes do. They inspire people, which is why I was getting into an argument about people when they talk about, well, I can't relate to Superman because he's so proud. I said, well, you're not supposed to relate to him. Right. I said, what are you talking about? No, you relate to Clark Kent.
01:50:30
Speaker
Superman is an inspiration. Superman is an ideal of what you can be. Superheroes basically, and this is what people gotta realize, is that they're beyond other stories. And I'm not saying that as in they're a different type of story than a regular story. And that's because what we're dealing with here is basically mythology.
01:50:56
Speaker
yeah that's what superheroes are there are modern greek myths and you know it's like back in the day people weren't asking why zeus why turning into a a goose or whatever or swan or whatever would make a woman want to have sex with zeus they just accepted it and and yeah and people gotta got people just gotta accept that you know it's
01:51:25
Speaker
This is just, this is just our mythology. And yeah, there are some things that are not, that don't have to be explained. You just gotta roll with it. Well, see back then, people didn't have the internet. Well, the people took a plane and talked about, well, we need to explain. Yeah. Why? No, myths are there for a reason. And superheroes are, like you say, quite accurately. Superheroes are our modern mythology. We don't have,
01:51:55
Speaker
the pantheon of, you know, the gods of Olympus or Asgard, you know, to tell stories about. So we tell stories about these characters who exemplify what we want to be. We all want to think that we're the people that when adversity strikes, we're going to rise up.
01:52:17
Speaker
and have a power that's greater in ourselves to meet that challenge. And that's why we love these characters. Why do we love Batman? Batman goes out and beats up bad guys because something bad happened to him when he was a child. We all had things happen to us when we was a child that we want to get back at people for, which is basically what Batman is. He's a child getting back at the bad people that hurt him. Yeah.
01:52:41
Speaker
Superman is the ultimate immigrant story. He's an immigrant that comes to America and he becomes our savior. I mean, you got stuff from the Ten Commandments and Jesus Christ, but basically that's what Superman is. He's an immigrant. You have Wonder Woman, who's the ultimate female empowerment story.
01:53:04
Speaker
Icon, you know, this is Wonder Woman. She's just as strong and powerful as any man more powerful than it than any other man, but also she
01:53:15
Speaker
which I don't understand how she beats up people, but promotes peace. But hey, we're not, that's how it works, right? You're not supposed to ask questions about it. It's just like how the X-Men are, are fighting for acceptance by living in a, in a mansion by themselves and never talking to anyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, some things you just go with, but again,
Encouragement and Final Thoughts
01:53:41
Speaker
the symbols of what they represent are more powerful than actually what they are in a way. Right.
01:53:48
Speaker
You know, it's just, it's what they represent. And yeah, if you go too deep into it and if you pick it apart, yeah, you can pick apart anything. If you dig enough deep in it, but then again, why should you? Why can't you just accept what this is and just say, okay, this is what this represents. And I'm either going to take joy in what it represents or I'm going to pick it apart until there's nothing left.
01:54:16
Speaker
which is what most cynical people do nowadays. Right. You see on the internet all the time, they pick apart everything until there's nothing left. Exactly. And that's why they have nothing left in their life. That's why they're bitter cynical people. Right. I mean, and you know what, um, that's what's annoying me when there's talk about like the Joker and getting the Oscar nomination. And you know, so many people are,
01:54:41
Speaker
getting bet out of shape about this movie and about like superhero movies in general just like there's a there's a really famous cartoon where you know one guy is um really famous comic webcomic where one guy is bashing something the other guy just grabs his lips and says just let people enjoy things yeah yeah
01:55:03
Speaker
Yeah, just basically that's what it comes down to. Just let people enjoy things. Yeah. Yeah. Let people enjoy what they enjoy. You don't have to challenge people all the time. Oh, you like that? You know, there are plenty of stuff that people like that I don't get. But hey, you know what? If you enjoy, which is why I always tell people that, you know what? I want everybody to see this.
01:55:25
Speaker
their favorite superhero on screen. Because I got to see my favorite superheroes on screen. I got to see Thor on screen. I got to see Black Panther. So even if I don't like your superhero, I want you to see them on screen. Because it's your favorite. Everybody deserves that. Right. I mean, I remember a conversation I had with someone. They were complaining that Matt Reeves is going to do a Batman movie. And they're saying, why do we have to have another Batman movie? I'm like, why not?
01:55:54
Speaker
Why not? I mean, I like Batman. A lot of people like Batman. What's the problem with giving him another movie? And yeah, I'm with you. You know what? There's, it's not an either or proposition. Like it doesn't mean, just because we have a lot of superhero movies, doesn't mean we can't get other movies. Just because we have a lot of Batman movies, doesn't mean we can't get a Batwoman TV show. I mean, we just did. Look. Yeah. And also for somebody up here,
01:56:23
Speaker
Batwoman is their favorite character. Yeah, and I'm glad they got it. I'm glad they got that show. For them, I'm glad they got a Bat. Supergirl, I never really was crazy about Supergirl until this TV show, you know. I was never really a Green Arrow fan to begin with. Like the show was what got me into the character. Neither was I. You know, I like Green Arrow.
01:56:51
Speaker
But I can't say I was a Green Arrow fan. But this show made me look at Green Arrow in a new light. No, Iron Man. Iron Man's a perfect example. I've read the Avengers books since I was in high school. So when Kirk Busek and George Perez took it over. And that was my entry point. So I loved the Avengers. I liked Iron Man as an Avenger. But I can never really get into his solo books. But these movies, Iron Man's one of my favorite characters in the movies now. Guardian of the Galaxy, too. Same thing.
01:57:20
Speaker
Bingo, yeah. So yeah, just let people enjoy things, but I think we kind of ranted a little bit too much on this anyway.
01:57:32
Speaker
Well, time for us to wrap it up anyway. I think we've been going on long enough about it. So the bottom line is, folks, we love Crisis on Infinite Earths. Absolutely. And if you have not seen it, but you can always go on the CW, the app, they have it on the app. They have the whole
01:57:56
Speaker
Then you can watch it like it's one long movie on the app. Yeah, you watch the whole thing.
01:58:02
Speaker
And they also have, I think they also have the Kevin Smith after shows too with that. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. Because I watched it today on, you know, via my Xbox. I watched it on the CW app, which also I want to watch after we get finished. I see they have a Destro animated series. Oh, nice. Yeah. Do you know who does the voice of him in that?
01:58:27
Speaker
I have no idea. So what they call the CW seed. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if they got made about it back. I have no idea. But I just saw it while they had a little commercial for it while I was watching.
01:58:40
Speaker
You know the crisis today. That's oh sure. I said I gotta watch that said I had no idea But apparently they got a lot of stuff that's on the CWC that you know I had no idea was on there also got like because they introduced the Freedom fighters in Crisis on Earth X Yeah, and and yeah, they've got they've got they got their own animated show. They also had at one point they had a Vixen series as well
01:59:08
Speaker
You're right. The actress who played her on the TV show, she voices him. And they also had a John Constantine thing as well. Yeah, but I'd seen that on YouTube. I did not know about the CW until I actually, like I said, I downloaded, because for Christmas,
01:59:29
Speaker
My wife surprised me, she got me an Xbox One. So, you know, there's been a lot of things that, you know, a lot of apps I've been downloading and I've been watching simply because the ease of access now, you know, I watch it, you know, and no problem. So I did not know about the CWC. So like I said, I saw the commercial today for this Destro animated series. So I'm going to watch that after you and I get through. Let's see what that's like.
01:59:56
Speaker
Oh, so I just looked it up, and it turns out Michael Chiklis did the voice of Deathstroke for that. Really? Okay, cool, I like him. Yeah, me too. One of the few good things about the two Fantastic Four movies. Yeah, yeah, as we said, and sooner or later we'll get around to that.
02:00:16
Speaker
you know, uh, just let me say briefly that him and Chris Evans, they were the best things about those fantastic movies because to me it was obvious they read the comic books. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, next episode, like last time you had a pretty good idea where since it's, uh, February and black history month, we're gonna, we should do a few episodes focusing on black superheroes and your pick now. So which one do you want to go with first?
02:00:47
Speaker
Okay, now I know that everybody is going to be safe because we hear this from everybody about, oh, blade, blade, blade, blade, blade, blade. No, we're not going to do blade. We're not going to start with blade. We're going to do something. We're going to pick a move that I actually didn't care for when I first saw it, but I want to watch it again. I want to rewatch it and see how I feel about it now. I want to do Meteor Man, starring Robbie Townsend.
02:01:10
Speaker
Okay, I was I was thinking the same thing because You know someone posted a review of meteor man and our Facebook group. Yeah and And and I hadn't seen that movie since I was a kid So I'm I'm interested to try and find it and to have a look and have another look at it Yeah, I saw it in a method. I saw that in the theater. Mm-hmm
02:01:32
Speaker
you know, years ago, but I don't honestly, I honestly don't think I've seen it since then. And I remember I didn't like it then, but since I'm older now and my attitude is about what he was trying to do, because I remember I didn't like that movie because I wanted my blood heroes to be serious. Right.
02:01:57
Speaker
And this was like a kind of comedic kind of take on superheroes or more satiric. But in any case, I want to watch it again. And I want to see if time has changed my opinion. So yeah, that's what I wanted to do next time. I want to do Meteor Man. OK. And unless I'm mistaken, that really was the first black superhero movie, wasn't it? I do believe it was. It was the first black superhero movie. Yeah.
02:02:24
Speaker
Okay, so that'll be interesting. All right, so join us here next time when we talk about Meteor Man.
02:02:30
Speaker
And that's all for us. Yeah, check out Crisis on Infinite Earths. Like Derek said, you can find it on the CW app. You have the CW app. Yeah, it's one there. And they have it that you can watch it as individual episodes, or you can watch the whole thing. And also, with the CW app, that's free. So you don't have to subscribe to another streaming service or anything. No, no, no. You don't have to subscribe to it. Yeah, you can download it, and you can watch it for free.
02:02:59
Speaker
All right, and once you're done with that, pop on over to Facebook group, Superhero Cinephiles. Drop in, let us know what you think. Or you can tweet at us, or you can become a patron and help give us a little bit of support for the show. So we got a Patreon page. You can find it at patreon.com slash SuperheroCinephiles. You help us out. That helps us keep this show running and helps us keep the lights on.
02:03:29
Speaker
Yep, give us filthy lucre. All right, that's it for now. We're going to get on out of here. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next time. Thank you very much. Thank you, Perry. And you guys, good night, and God bless.
02:03:49
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the Superhero Cinephiles Podcast. If you have any questions or comments about this or any other episode, or if you have a superhero movie or TV show you'd like us to cover in a future episode, you can email us at superheroescinephiles at gmail.com. Or you can also visit us on the web at superheroescinephiles.com. If you like what you hear, leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Each review helps us reach more potential listeners.
02:04:16
Speaker
You can also support the show by renting or purchasing the movies discussed, or by picking up our books, all of which can be accessed through the website, as well as find links to our social media presences. The theme music for this show is a shortened version of Superhero Showdown, a royalty-free piece of music, courtesy of Pheasantlionstudios.com.