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Pierre Poilievre - A Political Life
160 Plays5 months ago
Tony is going solo this week and he welcomes Andrew Lawton to the program to discuss his latest book, "Pierre Poilievre: A Political Life".
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Transcript
Introduction and Milestone Celebration
00:00:00
Speaker
and another thing and another thing and another thing and another thing Welcome to another edition of and another thing podcast. I'm your co-host Tony Clement in the absence of the great and very busy Jody Jenkins. This is our 200th podcast. So Jody and I will celebrate on the 201st show, I'm sure, but we didn't want to ah not have this opportunity to have our guest with us today and he will be more
00:00:42
Speaker
uh, aptly introduced in just a few seconds. But we do want to thank our, of course, our sponsors. This is a 200th podcast event, another think podcast. We've had some great sponsors over the years. This started. without any sponsorship at all, ah just Jodi and I ah four years ago. And look, look where we are now. We're very, very happy with the opportunity to bring to you just, you know, our ramblings or some amazing guests in the political sphere, entertainment, sports, you name it, we've done it and we really
00:01:18
Speaker
pride ourselves on having a show that is a bit eclectic. you know Nothing wrong with that. We think ah being generalist rather than having specifics all the time makes it a better show. So let's thank our sponsors and we'll go
Acknowledgment of Sponsors
00:01:32
Speaker
from there. First of all, of course, we've got to thank Municipal Solutions. Municipal Solutions ah dot com ah John Mutton and the gang, of course, provide amazing development services, project management, Ontario's leading MZO firm. If you need development approvals, permit expediting, planning services with municipalities, even engineering and architectural services, municipal solutions is there for you.
00:01:59
Speaker
And then our continuing sponsor KWM Consulting. They're our newest sponsor as well. They have been in the lobbying and advocacy business for over 23 years. They support companies of all sizes, big companies, small businesses, deal with governments. ah The company believes in honest, ethical advice and the value of hard work. Contact Kelly Mitchell. He is the KWM of KWM Consulting. You can find him at kwmconsulting.com or just call Kelly. He's at 416-728-8287. And finally, a big thank you to our terrestrial radio sponsor. Yes, there is still still such thing as terrestrial radio. It's going strong. And that is Hunters Bay Radio, huntersbayradio.com. Every Saturday morning on their broadcast, which you can live stream, of course,
00:02:49
Speaker
They have a series of podcasts that are part of their repertoire, including and another thing podcast. So isn't that great? Well, let's get to
Guest Introduction: Andrew Lawton
00:02:58
Speaker
it. Our guest, Andrew Lawton, he is a Canadian broadcaster. He's a journalist, former ah formerly hosted a show on Global News Radio, wrote a national column for Global News. ah He has been published in The Washington Post, National Post, Toronto Sun. been on all of the major MSN broadcast, CBC, CTV, TVO, you name it, even BBC World, it looks like here. And he is, of course, the currently the managing editor of True North, where he hosts the Andrew Lawton show. He is part of the media world of Canada, Andrew, and the podcasting world. So it's great when two podcasts can meet like this, right?
00:03:40
Speaker
Yes, I love it. Thanks so much for having me back, especially on such a momentous milestone. Congratulations. yeah You're the number 200. It's great. it's it's It's fantastic that we've been able to do this ah consistently. You know, ah part of the battle is consistency, right? and ah in this ah in this line of work with podcasting people, you know, they they want to know that they can count on you for being part of their entertainment world. And we're very happy that we can do that. But we are here not to talk about us, Andrew, to talk about you and your latest book. It is called Pierre Poliev, A Political Life. So, yes,
Discussing Andrew's Book on Pierre Poliev
00:04:16
Speaker
let's get to it. First of all, why did you decide to write this book?
00:04:20
Speaker
It's funny you asked that, so I would love to come up with some really, really grand, romantic, philosophical, momentous answer that would obscure the truth that my publisher asked me to. Oh, okay. i however However, I can give you the grandiose romantic answer for why I said yes, because I instantly love the idea. And and just for context, my publisher is Sutherland House, which was run by ken white who's a a longtime mainstay of the publishing world he used to run the national post when it was founded and he published my previous book which was about the the freedom convoy but he had asked me about this and i was instantly on board with it because i had already actually been thinking.
00:05:02
Speaker
about the need to really tell the story of Pierre Poliev. And that goes back to really the leadership race when I was covering for True North and also seeing other people that had gone to the rallies, these massive, massive rallies that Poliev was holding across the country, bringing out in some cases, thousands of people in other cases, hundreds. But those places were small places that didn't even have a lot of ah strong conservative organization. And I was seeing this and realizing, as was his team in real time here, that there was a movement that was bigger than him. And that was bigger than, you know, even the best political organizer could have created. And it was, for me, something that I found quite fascinating and quite compelling. And it led to me thinking, okay, let's let's learn who this guy is, because I'm sure other people want to know as well.
00:05:54
Speaker
No, I think that's absolutely a very interesting observation. Obviously, I was involved in the Polyev campaign, as was Jodi, actually. And I remember one of the first times we saw him speak ah to a crowd was it was on St. Patrick's Day. So it was, you know, March 17th. right as the campaign started to ah emerge and and and roll forward. and We were in Belleville on St. Patrick's Day. you know Usually people have other things to do, and there was like 400 people in the room. Jodi and I looked at each other and said, holy smokes, this is this is real. This is serious. and it It only got bigger from there, really, and ah captured a lot of imaginations out there. so
00:06:36
Speaker
So that's that's the reasoning behind it. I'd love to know what was something surprising that you learned about Pierre Poliev when researching for this book.
Pierre Poliev's Political Philosophy
00:06:47
Speaker
ah You know, for me, I find it interesting to see the growth in evolution that anyone goes through. And what I found so interesting about him is how much he got the core philosophy right when he was very early on in his life. We're talking about as an adolescent reading Milton Friedman here. He had really developed this philosophy about politics, about the economy.
00:07:11
Speaker
And while he certainly changed his position on on issues over the years, and and he's, you know, as a human has changed and matured and grown and all of that, the core philosophy and convictions have remained effectively unchanged for the last like 27, 28 years, like going back to letters to the editor he was writing when he was in high school. And I found that just so fascinating. I mean, you you know, ah from your own history and politics, like oftentimes, you know, people in in your former line of work can change their position in the span of a day. Or a month, but for this guy to keep that going for more than two decades has been ah quite quite surprising. And I think quite again, quite fascinating and unique. So do you think that that's ah is there ah a trait, a personality trait that Pierre has that that goes to that that you've discovered?
00:08:00
Speaker
Maybe it's stubbornness in a way, but I also think that stubbornness doesn't really describe it because that's typically about holding to something that you maybe shouldn't just because you refuse to accept you're wrong. He does, by all accounts of people I've spoken to, listen to people around him. He takes advice. He is open to changing his mind about things, but I think it's actually a deep conviction. And and that's why when people, I think unfairly try to reduce his brand to, oh, it's just about slogans,
00:08:31
Speaker
They're often missing a key component, which is that, yeah, he'll come out with the ax, the tax slogan or sell out saying, or trust fund Trudeau or these sorts of snappy things. But they're all coming from something that is much more deeply ingrained. They're coming from something that has been with him. for a much longer period of time and and look i'm not a partisan my interest in this is is as a journalist but as someone who's been on the political right and i don't hide that fact there is something refreshing about that especially after the last couple of elections when we saw much more of a shift or a pivot.
00:09:04
Speaker
in the way that leadership candidates spoke during the leadership race to the way they they spoke after becoming leader and and with Pauliev he's only further entrenched himself as to these positions because these weren't new positions in the leadership race right right they were part of his core set of beliefs yeah that makes sense do you think that obviously he's who knows about the future, but the present, it's very clear he's doing very well ah in the polls that he's even starting to make breakthrough numbers in
Poliev's Timing and Movement Creation
00:09:35
Speaker
the province of Quebec, which is.
00:09:37
Speaker
not usual for conservative leaders in the modern era. um Do you think that ah he just found the right time to run or do you think that he is sort of making this the right, you know is he is he creating a movement that otherwise wouldn't exist? So I think I thought I explored that question when I was writing the book and I've been asked it a couple of times in the last week and I've actually each time have tried to reflect on it just to make sure I'm i'm answering it properly. I think you have to say it's both and the reason I believe that is because there's no denying that there were political circumstances that were ripe for what happened. I think you look at
00:10:21
Speaker
Frustrations with aeronaut tools leadership you look at covid frustrations growing frustrations with justin trudeau all of this and and there are circumstances that are undeniably making canadians right for change but you still need the right type of person to do that you need the right person at the right moment and i think he's done that and i think that one of his political gifts is actually a profoundly. in tune sense of timing. ah You know, one of the things that the book deals with is his reason to not seek the leadership in 2020. And certainly the book suggests from people I spoke to that there were family reasons involved in that.
00:11:00
Speaker
but But ultimately, it was a sense that the time wasn't right. And I think hindsight being 20, we could probably agree with that point. Had he been the leader in 2021, maybe he would have won the election. Maybe it would have been a bit different than it was for the Conservatives. But I certainly don't think it's a majority. I certainly don't think it's the mandate that the polls are suggesting he'll be getting now. And I also don't think the Conservative Party is as united as it is under him now if he were the leader then so i think that yes there was the right time but a lot of other people in the same circumstances wouldn't be able to do what he has done.
00:11:35
Speaker
Do you you obviously, ah first of all, how many people did you interview for the book? Let's let's ask that question. In some form or another, it was close to 80. And some of those were, you know, I sent some emails saying, hey, I'm i'm trying to you know get some details about this. Others were hours and hours long. But but it was definitely dozens of of people, and including members of caucus, people that worked for him, work for him now. And of course, Jenny Byrne, whose story is inseparable from his because they've known each other. for basically 25 years, and they were romantically involved, and she's now ah his most senior advisor. And and and in the absence of of sitting down with him, ah Jenny, I think, was very much the next best thing. I mean, and that's a real coup. Let's let's not not shortchange that. Not many people get to sit down for hours with Jenny Byrne, ah so that that's to your credit.
00:12:26
Speaker
Well, and the pitch, that to be honest, I don't mind sharing with you. The first person that knew about the book was my publisher. The second person was my wife. The third person was Jenny Byrne. And I i told her early on because I knew that it would take some time to you know get her and potentially Pierre Poliev. in mind in in the mindset of, yes, I'll sit down. But also, I didn't want any of these people to hear from others that I were was reaching out to for interviews and and then have it come back to me. And and one of the pitches that I made is is that, look, I'm going to write this fairly. You're not going to have a say in what I write. But I think that you know he's a fascinating enough and relevant enough political figure that someone is going to write this book. Who do you want to be doing it? Do you want it to be me or do you want it to be some Toronto star journalist? And I think that was ah an argument that won me a bit of favor.
00:13:13
Speaker
ah Just getting back to the 80 interviews, um you probably got a ah real sense, and I think you've already made this point, but how unified the party is under Pierre, which has not been usual in the post Harper era. So did did you get that sense from those interviews that people were were really on board with him? I did. and Now, obviously, right after he won the leadership, there was the one Quebec member of the caucus, Alain Reyes, who I just declared himself an independent and and left but even others who had endorsed joshar a said okay i get behind pierre polly have he's the guy and and they've gotten there and i was chatting with caucus members a lot and earlier on most of these that i was trying to do were
00:13:56
Speaker
on the record interviews where my tape recorders on i'm welcome you know digital tape recorders on and i'm asking them questions and and of course in that sense there's always the risk that am i being fed a line am i being right and after i had had enough content of that nature i started to just focus more on having human conversations not to quote them or write them in the book or string anyone up but just to get a sense person to person how these people are. And i noticed that the caucus unity was not a line it wasn't and it was something i felt from people in a very real way and that's not to say there are fractures behind the scenes obviously there are some members who are running again i suspect the summer there might be a few more that announced that for some reasons for some it may be just they've been there long enough for others it may be that they are loving things
00:14:46
Speaker
But even these are are, I think, relatively normal in politics. We're not seeing the fractures that I was hearing about under Aaron O'Toole to give, I think, the very stark contrast of this tenure versus the previous one, which was very rocky for MPs. Yeah, no, I think you're you're banging on about that. um it's The other thing that I find interesting about the timing of this book is that there are two other books out, political books, about Justin Trudeau, literally, I think, very close to the same week that that you published. ah Paul Wells- Yes, Stephen Morris came out the same day as mine. Paul Wells, I think, had a a two-week head start, if I recall correctly. Right. so it you know I mean, who knows the future, but it's kind of interesting that there their book dealt with
00:15:38
Speaker
the final days or months, maybe a year and a half of of a person's mandate. Who knows? He could resign next week for all we know. but but And you're talking about an up and comer ah who hasn't achieved power. Yes, he was a cabinet minister and and Stephen Harper's cabinet and an MP for a number of years. but and in and of his own accord, ah his supposedly what he would like to think and and what you're predicting is that his best days are ahead of him. So it's kind of an interesting juxtaposition. Have you have you given that any thought?
00:16:15
Speaker
I didn't, but someone did mention to me the other day that contrast between my book and and Stephen Mars book, which I think was was quite ah an adequate and and quite ah an interesting look into the Justin Trudeau government. And someone said, oh, Andrew, your book is a birth notice and his book is an obituary. which I thought was a very interesting way of putting it. And I think you've touched on the the very same theme there, which is that my book is a history in the sense that it's looking back on his life. But the tone of my book, the setting of my book is much more forward looking.
00:16:48
Speaker
And I specifically ended with a chapter about the future because I think that it's important to understand contextually how the past informs the future and that's the the armchair historian in me at work but I also think it was really interesting just to situate Pierre Poliev in the political context right now and and when I wrote it. i thought okay there's a very good chance this guy is going to become the next prime minister the poll numbers that we're seeing now we're not there when i took on this project so from ah i mean from a marketing perspective it's meant for a great opportunity for the book to come out this way but we it wasn't as decisive when i was writing it as it's looking now with the obvious caveat about calling. Right right right now.
00:17:31
Speaker
Your previous book was about the pandemic. So can you give us a sense of how Pierre Poliev and the COVID pandemic interplayed with one another, ah which again was a ah really important turning point, perhaps in Pierre's political life?
Poliev and the Pandemic Response
00:17:54
Speaker
For sure. And I, it's a great question and I would, I would narrow your premise a little bit because my book was about the convoy specifically, which was a product of the pandemic, but I, I didn't have the the time or the word count to go into making it ah a history of the Canadian COVID response as a whole. But why I think that's an important distinction is because I argued in that book that despite how big the convoy was, its influence was relatively limited.
00:18:22
Speaker
In the fact that it didn't get rid of Justin Trudeau, it didn't get rid of provincial governments with one exception, which was Alberta. I think the convoy was a very key part of Jason Kenny's demise. And at the federal level, it didn't get rid of Justin Trudeau, but it was a very key part of Erin O'Toole's demise. So, you know, perhaps in the future we could say that the Freedom Convoy had more of an influence in Canadian politics as a whole. But what was true is that it really did become a ah mobilizing force in conservative politics in Canada.
00:18:53
Speaker
And I think in that way, it really showed a stark contrast between different factions of the party. And Pierre Poliev, who was not, you know, an anti-vaxxer, he wasn't one of these people that had been even railing against it in a very fiery way from the start. He, like many Canadians had said, let's do what we need to do. Let's take that team Canada approach. But I think he saw early on that the money wasn't working. that the money stuff was wrong, that all of this money that Justin Trudeau was shoveling out of the door on the under the guise of pandemic spending, that there might be issues with that. And and he was, I think, stronger on that than Aaron O'Toole was as the opposition leader. And then as the pandemic stretched on, as we started to see after the 2021 election, the rhetoric from the federal government get a lot more divisive, the policies get a lot more divisive.
00:19:42
Speaker
ah The conservative base started to shift a fair bit and he of course being this movement conservative This is the point I make in the book was very tied in with where the conservative movement was So I think it's interesting that I didn't set out to write a sequel to the freedom convoy because I think it's a different story but I also think that first book is I quote myself in the second book because It is a part of that story of Pierre Poliev for
Influences and Inspirations of Poliev
00:20:08
Speaker
sure. And, you know, people may remember that caucus meeting when MPs were deciding Aaron O'Toole's fate. One of the most clear, supportive positions about the convoy came from Pierre Poliev, who did something which is very rare for him. he start He stopped in front of the caucus meeting on the way into the Johnny McDonald building, turned around, faced reporters, and gave what was probably played until the video file broke to mix my metaphors there.
00:20:35
Speaker
which was a statement in support of the law abiding peaceful protesters. And that was really the unofficial launch of his campaign. It was. Yeah. No, very interesting. Do you did you get a sense of ah because that this happens typically in a political life to quote your book ah that, you know, you have some mentors along the way. Who do you think were the most important mentors for Pierre Poliev? <unk> It's funny you asked that because it wasn't something that I got an answer to. And I did ask where someone could say, yes, you know, so-and-so really took Pierre under his wing or so-and-so was really cited by Pierre as someone he learned a lot from. I found influences, people he was influenced by, mostly from history. Winston Churchill is a great example of this. He he learned a lot from, he certainly learned a lot from Jason Kenney. That was where he cut his teeth on Parliament Hill, in interning and in his office.
00:21:30
Speaker
But interestingly enough with Jason Kenny, I spoke to him for the book, and he recounts the story of Poliev volunteering on his campaign in the lead up to the 1997 election. Kenny's the reform candidate, it's his first time seeking office, and he walks into this reform phone bank and hears this guy. just as Kenny says brimming with self confidence that's making this pitch to everyone he speaks to that is just so persuasive. He's getting credit card numbers, donations, memberships, he's getting it all. And Jason Kenny is describing that he's picturing in his mind, this like 40 year old lawyer type that's just, you know, so assured of himself. And then he meets this scrawny kid named Pierre Poliev. And
00:22:17
Speaker
The reason I bring that story up is because there was an innate sense that, or a sense that he had this innate ability that people noticed where, you know, Kenny by that, if I extrapolate a little bit, probably didn't feel the need to mentor Poliev because he saw Poliev as someone who just naturally got it. Stockwell day. Another one, he was very influential and in, in Pauliev's career and Pauliev worked for him in Ottawa. But Pauliev also was credited by people around Stockwell day as making Stockwell perform better is actually really improving his work as an MP. So I think there were a lot of these situations where there were some interplay where he learned from someone and someone learned from him, but I didn't encounter someone that really could claim credit for, for him in that way.
Personal Growth and Influence of Anna Poliev
00:23:06
Speaker
What about the influence of his wife Anna that has been I think probably one of the most market influences I think a lot of people have seen his maturity as a person. in the time that they've been together. Because obviously, like you know anyone else in politics, there are going to be missteps that get picked up by the media. And he had a few of those earlier on in his career. And they really stopped in 2012 when him and Anna got together. And I'm not saying that that's the reason why. Obviously, he's aging as well. But I think there's something to that fact. And I know from my own life that marriage has been like the most positively influential force in my life. There's a reason they say,
00:23:45
Speaker
married men live longer, although when my wife says that I retort, no, it just feels longer, ah which doesn't always work out well for me. But the the reality is it has been, and I think the fact that she's been deployed as much in a political context is a sign of of the trust that he has in her, because this is a guy who's a control freak when it comes to his message and his image. So when he puts someone else out there to speak on his behalf, that's a sign of of trust that I think is very difficult for someone like that to have in a person. Is Pierre Poliev the greatest
00:24:20
Speaker
political communicator on the conservative side we've seen in a long time? In a long time, yes, I think so. and you know Typically, there's always been this divide or this perceived divide, this perceived binary that there are policy wonks and there are comms aficionados, that there are the people that know the policy and the people that know the comms and never the twain shall meet. And I think there's obviously a spectrum there. It's not a strict binary. I mean, you're a great example of this. You've always been phenomenal on policy and here you are hosting TV and podcasts. You clearly know communications. But but with Pauliev, he seems to have the greatest knowledge of both and the greatest aptitude for both simultaneously of anyone else in Canadian politics. And that was something that people on his team and people who have worked for him have really signaled that he,
00:25:13
Speaker
understand the interplay between these things, and he knows how to play them off each other. He knows how to make the policy work politically. He knows how to politically craft good policy. And it actually works effectively because on his team, people have said you don't have that siloing of the policy shop comes up with something, then sends it to comms to sell. This is a much more integrated process from the get-go, which means you have policy that's good, conservative policy, but also policy that you know you can sell that isn't just gonna be some academic white paper exercise.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the the other point that goes along with what you just said is that in modern politics of today, authenticity counts a great deal, perhaps even greater than the specifics of any particular policy pronouncement. And the fact is, no one disbelieves that when Pierre Poliev utters something, it is Pierre Poliev. It's not some guy in the back room who is ah you know being the master puppeteer. Yeah. And I think a great example of that is the fair elections act. And I know you were obviously in the government when this came up. This was something the conservatives got absolutely slammed for by the media, by the opposition, by a lot of civil society groups. It was a no brainer for conservatives, but it was like the most controversial thing the Stephen Harper government ever did to some segments of the population. And this was Pauliez baby. He was the, I think it was the democratic reform minister was what it was called at the time.
00:26:45
Speaker
right And he really believed in this policy. He was selling it. He made it a big part of the agenda. But what was interesting is that he was not afraid to debate the ins and outs of it with anyone. He had, as I quote in the book, like a 45 minute argument. It was a civil argument, but an argument with Justin Ling, a journalist who's far more oriented with progressivism, hated the bill. but paulieb would knew the ins and outs of it he would defend it because he knew it he believed it. And i think that's rare there are a lot of cabinet ministers i wanna ask you to name names but i'm sure you saw some of these people where it's like okay they get the briefing note they memorize that on it and they're almost like automatons of of certain. Policy or of an agenda that is not really there's where's paulieb doesn't take something up unless it is his and i think that was why.
00:27:35
Speaker
He was, despite having a junior cabinet role, someone who was so effective in that role and and pushed through a pretty significant piece of legislation. Now, obviously it didn't survive with the Trudeau government, but it was still something that conservatives overwhelmingly believed was the right thing. So ah the book has been out for how long now? A couple of weeks? so it It was kind of funny, it technically came out on May 28th, but Indigo had like pushed it out on the shelves two weeks earlier. so All of these political staffers were like scurrying around to clear it off the shelves of every Ottawa Indigo, but officially it was the 28th, to answer your question. It's a best seller, so congratulations. Thank you. um Yeah, what's the reaction you're getting?
00:28:21
Speaker
Really positive. it It's funny because when the Freedom Convoy came out, it was my first book. I was really proud of it. I had worked hard on it. It was, again, a piece of journalism that has been vindicated. ah You know, the Public Order Emergency Commission even cited it as evidence. And I had like cleared my
Public Perception and New Voter Identity
00:28:38
Speaker
schedule for two weeks because I just knew the interview requests were going to be bombarding me. I was going to be on TV, radio, everything. And I did not do one single mainstream media interview for that book. Not because I said no to them because no one asked. No one asked. yeah and then this book has been the opposite of that it's been gangbusters i've had you know cbc i did uh like this weird thing i don't know if you've ever done it where you do 26 back-to-back radio interviews on cbc they basically sit you down and you talk to like every cbc radio affiliate in the country for 10 minutes and it's just this
00:29:13
Speaker
they Call it a a syndication run so i did that i was on power in politics you know newspapers have picked it up tremendous media interest and the interest from people has been good i've gotten emails and ah tweets even from people who are conservatives that have said they learned something from it which was really why i wrote it. Do you think that there are some people who who read the book with some open minds about here. I think so. I think there are a lot of people that are told by someone in their life, whether it's their family, or their teacher, or their professor, or the media, that there's something icky about being a conservative. And there are people that have never been a conservative in their life, but maybe are tuning into TV, or on social media, and they say, oh, this Pierre Polyev guy seems a bit interesting. But they they don't necessarily know they're conservative, or maybe identify with that.
00:30:04
Speaker
And I think we're seeing a lot of that, especially among younger people, which means there is a curiosity. There is, I think, and a sense of people wanting to learn more about him. And I think that's going to be something that probably helps him. I mean, a lot of people are saying, oh, his lead in the polls is just vote parking. It's only going to go down. Maybe, but it could also go up because there are still undecided voters that know they don't want Justin Trudeau. but aren't quite confident if they can become, quote unquote, conservatives.
Closing Remarks and Acknowledgments
00:30:33
Speaker
And that mentality is I think probably especially, especially acute in places like the GTA, as you mentioned earlier, Tony, maybe Quebec as well. Right now, there's a there's a lot of fluidity in Canadian politics right now. Andrew Lawton, thank you for writing this book. Thank you for coming on our show on our 200th podcast. It really means a lot. You can pick up Pierre Polly have a political life wherever you can buy a book or download a book, I guess. say
00:30:58
Speaker
Absolutely. it's so Again, yeah, there was the other contrast. Indigo wouldn't carry the Freedom Convoy, but they have this one up on the front shelf doing the whole best seller thing, which I'm drinking. Yeah, that goes. as Well, there you go. Vindication there. And once again, thank you to Andrew Lawton for coming on our 200th podcast. Great to have him on. And again, thank you to our sponsors municipal solutions at municipal solutions dot.ca, John Mutton and the gang and then KWM consulting Kelly Mitchell and the gang there at KWM consulting.com. And again, thank you to our terrestrial radio sponsor, Hunter's Bay radio. You can hear this and other excellent podcasts every Saturday morning, Hunter's Bay radio dot.com. We will see you again in just a few short days.