Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome back to the sixth episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast.
Speaker: Today, me and Diane will be revisiting the topic of education, delving specifically into the purpose of education, teaching, student voice and university.
Speaker: They were also joined by a special guest who's a teacher and he teaches at one of the UK's leading schools.
Speaker: However, before we start the episode today, we'd like to encourage everyone to try and listen to the whole episode, hopefully, and also to leave some suggestions for any future episodes.
Speaker: Hello, everyone.
Speaker: Hi, Dan and John.
Speaker: I am Jonathan and I'm a physics and maths teacher in a secondary school.
Speaker: So, well, thank you for joining us today.
Speaker: And today's podcast, we'll be talking about something that I'm sure you know quite a lot about.
Speaker: And this is education and specifically the purpose of education, the role of students, university and a career in teaching.
Speaker: So technically, the purpose of education, I think, is to pass on some skills from teacher to student and to prepare the students to have a job in their lives and then pass on their knowledge, so on and so forth.
Speaker: But it's not that clear cut anyway in our modern day.
Speaker: So what do you think, Jonathan?
Speaker: What's actually the aim of education nowadays?
Speaker: I think when you say imparting knowledge, that's like a big part of it.
Speaker: But if we think about from, let's start with like a student standpoint, right?
Speaker: If I was a student when I was studying, I would be thinking about, okay, can I get a job out of this?
Speaker: Or can I get some satisfaction in...
Speaker: in studying this or some kind of success in some degree.
Speaker: Like, for example, oh, I did this physics paper really well and I feel good about it.
Speaker: So, like, that's one of them, right?
Speaker: I think about teacher.
Speaker: I think it's very similar because, like, we want our students to succeed.
Speaker: But also, like, I think teachers will want their student to succeed in more like a
Speaker: personal way like as in like I know you're a student I'm teaching you I am passing on in quotation marks knowledge to you and I want you to be able to use this skill to succeed but if we stand from something like a society standpoint it would be like
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: So imagine you're playing a game and you're like, you're in control of, say, the UK.
Speaker: And you're like, okay, what do I want my students to have?
Speaker: Like, I want these young people to have some kind of skills so they can contribute to the society, either economically or socially.
Speaker: So in that case, in that sense, like it comes back to like testing, right?
Speaker: Because now you have trained, you have trained some students to do like a sort of job and now you're testing on their skills.
Speaker: So, well, John and Dan, how are your tests going?
Speaker: Well, we've got GCSEs in less than a week time.
Speaker: But I think they're going well.
Speaker: I think my main issue with,
Speaker: the sort of testing is that it relies a lot on just memorizing mark schemes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It doesn't really test if you truly understand something or if you just know.
Speaker: So, you know, the loudspeaker question, for example, I don't think everyone understands what's actually going on, but they know you need to say changing magnetic fields, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: Yeah, me neither.
Speaker: I'm joking.
Speaker: I do know how it works.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's the point, right?
Speaker: As in, like, when you study a subject, it's like a vessel of, like, testing of how well you do other things.
Speaker: Like, if you can...
Speaker: like memorize the mark scheme, know what to put down.
Speaker: Say when you are in a job and you have to like fill in some Excel sheet or you have to like draft an email for someone, then you can do exactly that.
Speaker: So it's like one of the skills that you have in real life.
Speaker: It sounds really cynical, I know.
Speaker: but it is kind of there because they want you to be able to kind of replicate these skills in your future life.
Speaker: So it's tests are basically like a, a thing where it examines on how well you can express things, express the knowledge that you learn rather than how much knowledge you actually learn or creative out of the box thinking.
Speaker: So I,
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: For example, if, say, in English, you've got a play or something.
Speaker: Let's say a person.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, V from a bitch.
Speaker: I think when I was doing this English test, it was Tempest.
Speaker: Then it was like, if someone knows the play a lot, like, have a lot of understanding of it, but they can't express it, they would get quite a low mark.
Speaker: For example, I don't know.
Speaker: Let's say I know...
Speaker: say the story of a tempest, I know the underlying meaning.
Speaker: I know exactly why Shakespeare wrote it that way.
Speaker: But then let's say when I'm answering my question, I trip up my grammar.
Speaker: I don't use the right key terms.
Speaker: I don't write.
Speaker: I don't remember the exact words.
Speaker: I paraphrase them.
Speaker: Then it will become a problem, right?
Speaker: You'll get a lower mark.
Speaker: So that's one thing that the test
Speaker: can't and don't test on is like not the true underlying like knowledge or understanding but rather a more quotation marks superficial skill of reiterating expressing this knowledge
Speaker: Yes, I was going to say, yeah, I agree with you there.
Speaker: I think a lot of education, especially towards testing, is learning the information in a certain way that's relevant to the test, but not relevant to the outside world.
Speaker: So as you said, Diane, for things like learning how certain mechanisms work in physics, you basically just need to regurgitate information onto the page.
Speaker: And that's the same with English.
Speaker: Even if you have a good understanding of the text or the book, it's primarily about how you write about it, not how great your knowledge of the book is.
Speaker: I was also going to say the importance of education alongside the purpose of it.
Speaker: And you earlier alluded to this, but it is really the silver bullet for development.
Speaker: And it's essential for any economy because, you know, you're educating the next generation, the next generation who will develop your country.
Speaker: And unless a country has got, and if a country hasn't got a good education system, then the economy will definitely decrease because you have less intelligent individuals, you can access less good jobs and bring a less good economic outcome.
Speaker: I was also going to say that I also asked you guys about this, but education is also quite important in increasing things like gender equality.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there's lots of also sort of other benefits of education, more so than just learning, let's say, math equations or science equations.
Speaker: What do you guys think of this?
Speaker: I think it's...
Speaker: Definitely about gender equality, but also social equality in terms of saying that one of the purpose of education is to kind of level the playing field for different people that are born in different backgrounds.
Speaker: So say if someone has a poor background and an unfortunate childhood, but however, if they do well in the test, they will be able to access jobs that are higher income or jobs that give them a higher quality of life.
Speaker: And that's definitely one of the benefits of having a good education system.
Speaker: But I think one more thing is that
Speaker: When we are educating children, there's also a problem where, I don't know why I can't make it back to the test again, but better schools or more well-funded schools are definitely going to have an advantage into producing better results.
Speaker: just because of how much resource they put in, in terms of lesson time, making sure that students actually attend the lessons, making sure students have good resources or electronic devices in order to help them to learn.
Speaker: So even though education definitely helps with this equality thing, it doesn't achieve it on its own.
Speaker: Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker: we were talking about this, John, in our last episode as well, how independent schools generally do produce better results and do produce children, really, with better degrees and then better jobs in the future down the line.
Speaker: I think that's also, as Jonathan has said, due to the fact that more resources are being put in, the teachers are being monitored, I think, Jonathan, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but...
Speaker: there's definitely a bit of a higher pressure I think.
Speaker: Yeah, I think there's definitely a pressure but I think this pressure mainly kind of teachers give themselves that pressure but there's also pressure from more senior leadership.
Speaker: yeah we as a teacher well because we have like league tables right like it's like oh this school is better than that because of results and you can see it in not just in secondary schools but in universities right so one of the main goals of my school is to okay i'll say how many of my gcscs gets uh seven to nines how many of my a-level students gets uh a star studies and it's
Speaker: I think it's not entirely a bad thing, if you think about it.
Speaker: I mean, there is some kind of motivation for teachers to think of better ways to teach.
Speaker: But as you say, there is a certain pressure to them.
Speaker: And now moving on, we're talking about universities.
Speaker: Jonathan, do you think there's any point of people going to university in 2024?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Could you explain why I'm... Yeah, yeah, there's quite a few things, I think.
Speaker: I think universities is... Okay, so I think the biggest thing for me, personally, is universities give you a time to think where in secondary schools, it's just super hectic and you just don't have that time.
Speaker: And also, you might not have that kind of...
Speaker: you might not have exposed to other things, other people that is away from your circle.
Speaker: And this time to think is so important in personal development.
Speaker: If you have time to just sit down, think about what your worldviews are, and also be able to talk to people that have different viewpoints.
Speaker: Because when you go to university, if you're lucky, you meet people that are
Speaker: that are from different backgrounds, they have a different upbringing, or even if they have the same background upbringing or a similar background upbringing, they will have different stories because ultimately, I do think human individuals are made up of different stories, like everything that happens in your life that contributes to who you are right now.
Speaker: And that way really helps your society to kind of like gel well together.
Speaker: I can't find a better word for that.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: I think there are a couple more minor ones.
Speaker: I think one is like you are away from your kind of safety net from home because like as children, you are rightly at home with your parents because, well, you have to be protected from other people.
Speaker: But once you go to university, you lose that kind of protection and you learn a lot of real life skills in that way, where you have to, okay, you have to perhaps cohabit with three other people that you barely know or just, well, really just daily things.
Speaker: But that's a bit of a minor point, I think.
Speaker: And lastly, you do learn about what you like, right?
Speaker: I mean, after all, you get to choose what subjects or what field you go into.
Speaker: So you can learn more about that.
Speaker: You can work with leading experts in the field on that.
Speaker: So that's a rare opportunity.
Speaker: Like if you do not go to university,
Speaker: maybe the most senior person you know that knows about a subject is your teacher.
Speaker: Teachers are great.
Speaker: Teachers know a lot about their subject, but are they active researchers?
Speaker: Most of them are not.
Speaker: They're not active researchers on a certain field.
Speaker: Well, I definitely agree with you there and how on the sort of social side, university is a great transition, I'd imagine, from schooling to working life.
Speaker: And it bridges that quite large gap from, as you said, a protected family life to the real world.
Speaker: I was also going to say that I think university is really essential in any era, in any year for people entering highly trained professions.
Speaker: Obviously, you need people who are entering medicine, law, science, dentistry, things like that.
Speaker: You need them to be highly trained by on a level higher than what secondary schools can provide you.
Speaker: And I think this level of training can only be accessed through a university.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And, you know, even if perhaps your degree, you aren't going to pursue it for your job, let's say, especially if humanities degrees, this is more prominent.
Speaker: You definitely get more knowledge about that subject, which you can apply to the outside world.
Speaker: And you will find yourselves, I'd imagine, using skills that you learn in your degree and knowledge that you learned when you get a job.
Speaker: Yeah, Diane, what do you think of it?
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: I think education is hugely important because you also meet people who are likely to be in your fields and then you can build those friendships and collaborate in the future as well.
Speaker: But the main issue with it, I think, nowadays, and some people find this an issue, is the rise of a lot of course and modules that perhaps have zero applicability to the world, frankly.
Speaker: again, John's right, more prominent in the humanities, English subjects.
Speaker: I think they still do give you some knowledge, as you said, John.
Speaker: And now moving on to the purpose of education and why students are very important to achieve the purpose of education.
Speaker: Jonathan, what do you think students should have a say in how school runs or any school activity, really?
Speaker: I think this really links well with the university point.
Speaker: In terms of like in university, you take full ownership of your own learning.
Speaker: Because think about it, like lecturers, they literally, they have like one hour per week where it's like clinic time where you can go to the lecturer to ask for help.
Speaker: Otherwise, it's just lectures, them talking to you and you writing notes on a device or something.
Speaker: So you are basically a lot of universities learning the subject yourself-ish.
Speaker: So this is something entirely different from school, because in school, students are basically forced into the classroom and then trained.
Speaker: And that's kind of how it is, because you think about in the classroom, you say it's 9.50, you go to your physics lesson, the teacher talks to you, gives you activities, you guys talk to each other, gives you worksheets to do.
Speaker: All of this is basically on a schedule, but in universities, it's quite different.
Speaker: And that comes to how students have basically no say in how the school is run.
Speaker: You think about it in a maybe not the best analogy, but school is kind of like a prison in a sense where there are mandated activities for you to do.
Speaker: There are mandated time for you to sit down and self-study for four-six formers.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that is not necessarily a bad thing, because if we think about what schools need to do for children, so there's like three.
Speaker: There's like protection, protecting you from malicious intents, people with malicious intents.
Speaker: There is provision, where they're providing you education, give you enough food, and taking care of your mental health, well-being, et cetera.
Speaker: But also, I think schools are really bad at encouraging pupils to participate, at least in, well, I say in this country, but I think that's just how it works right now in 2024.
Speaker: So say, what is participation?
Speaker: Think about if you can, if you can decide what you want to learn,
Speaker: and when you want to learn.
Speaker: That is participation.
Speaker: But then once I say this, I know a lot of people will be like, okay, well, that's just impossible, right?
Speaker: That's impractical, right?
Speaker: You give a 14-year-old child a choice to go to lesson, to do the homework, or don't do that.
Speaker: They will obviously choose, don't do that.
Speaker: And I totally get that.
Speaker: So I think it's kind of like a balance that we create.
Speaker: For example, you know in schools, they have...
Speaker: They're like food committees where they kind of decide on, you know, what lunch you get.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there's like student councils where students kind of come together and talk about, well, what issues are important to them.
Speaker: But these are like very limited measures because like everything in a student council, firstly, a lot of student councils are not elected.
Speaker: Some are, a lot aren't.
Speaker: Most aren't, I'd say.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: So if they aren't, then basically it's just your teachers saying, okay, well, I got this, this, this, and this students.
Speaker: They are model students.
Speaker: They do all their work.
Speaker: They participate in extracurriculars like sports, art, and music.
Speaker: They do that well.
Speaker: Okay, I will choose them, and we will have a chat about school.
Speaker: Is that the most effective way?
Speaker: Maybe not, because once you choose someone to be in a position, they are very unlikely to say something or to have an opposite opinion to you.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker: Yeah, because when you empower someone, they will be like, okay, this person empowered me, I will just do what they say.
Speaker: That's a bit of like human nature.
Speaker: as well with the head of schools and head of house as well it's pretty much the same thing I don't think
Speaker: Transformative change is very easy to do, especially because everyone's like, oh, well, I can't really go against the head or the second head because they've given me this role.
Speaker: And it's sort of a cycle of small changes that don't really impact anyone that much.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree with you both there.
Speaker: I think school is really almost like the feudal system in a way.
Speaker: You've got the students at the bottom and as you go up, you've got less people and it works its way up to the heads.
Speaker: But I don't think it's necessarily too bad a thing because...
Speaker: Especially I see this as I'm going through school.
Speaker: I think student participation and the role of students in what they want to learn becomes far greater.
Speaker: So, for example, in the United Kingdom, we have GCSEs.
Speaker: In that, you can have a few choices about what you want to learn, what you don't want to learn.
Speaker: And then you go to A-level where your education is sort of further streamlined.
Speaker: At A-level, you can really decide what you want to learn.
Speaker: And in fact, you can decide if you don't even want to learn in reality, you can decide not to pursue education.
Speaker: And then ultimately, you go to university where it's even more streamlined as you're choosing one thing.
Speaker: So I do think the student role does definitely, your choice in what you want to learn, I mean, definitely increases the older you get and the older you sort of mature.
Speaker: one more point I was going to say quickly is that I think the role of students in schools has definitely changed probably from a historical perspective.
Speaker: When you watch those films about, you know, schooling in the Victorian era, you always see the teacher at the front writing on a blackboard.
Speaker: However, nowadays, I always feel like it's more sort of classroom debates, more discussions and a lot more participation, which I think is far more effective.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's definitely a
Speaker: I don't think this way of teaching is new, promoting discussion.
Speaker: But I think from a teacher standpoint, it's effort.
Speaker: Because you have different pressures from different people.
Speaker: First, you have a very broad curriculum that you kind of had to push through in an exam subject.
Speaker: But secondly, trying to have class discussions can not backfire, but not work as well as you intended.
Speaker: Because sometimes it will, as a teacher, you're responsible for, say, 20, 30 kids, right?
Speaker: And your ideal situation is everything is under your control and you can not micromanage, but kind of micromanage what they're actually doing.
Speaker: But when you have class discussions, it can often descend into...
Speaker: well, I use this word chaos.
Speaker: And from a teacher standpoint, it's a lot of mental strain.
Speaker: So definitely it's a mix of both.
Speaker: So that's why I think the best kind of practitioners do have like a balance of
Speaker: of both pursuing how much curriculum we are going to push through and also like how much room for debate because I do think learning is like a social process and you can only like truly learn when you kind of like exchange viewpoints with your fellow classmates.
Speaker: Yeah so the final question that we have today is why did you want to become a teacher and what made you pursue this career?
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: I think it's a multitude of things.
Speaker: I think one is, or the biggest thing, is the personal enjoyment in terms of I do like seeing younger people learn.
Speaker: because you can see them transforming from knowing little to knowing a lot.
Speaker: And seeing that transformation gives myself a lot of satisfaction, um,
Speaker: And I came to kind of that conclusion when I was, when I, when I finished university and it was, well, it was COVID times and then I was doing some tutoring and, and I found, okay, that teaching might be the way to go.
Speaker: So, which I guess comes back to like all of the things I've said, like I do want schools to be more
Speaker: dialogical a lot more dialogues involved like if students can kind of like students and you know teachers they can like share some of the decision making like feeling the school as like a big community where everyone have a voice they can discuss these and yeah well I guess the second point is like I am a huge democrat in terms of like I do agree with democratic principles and I do think like schools like
Speaker: Educating young people is a very important step in that process because if you are in a democratic society, if people are not informed or they cannot assess the information given to them,
Speaker: then democracy will not be as strong as it should be, basically.
Speaker: Yeah, that's my two points.
Speaker: Thank you very much.
Speaker: That is the end of the sixth episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast.
Speaker: Thank you to Jonathan for coming in as a special guest this episode.
Speaker: Yes, thank you as well.
Speaker: That was really interesting to have another perspective on this very relevant debate and discussion to young people.
Speaker: Also, I'd encourage everyone still listening to follow the podcast, perhaps give us a five-star rating and also leave us a comment on the episode or for a future episode.
Speaker: Thank you very much.
